Originally by: Jennai

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anyone who claims mining is an isk sink obviously has no idea what an isk sink actually is and should not be talking about anything related to economy

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Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

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Originally by: Jennai

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anyone who claims mining is an isk sink obviously has no idea what an isk sink actually is and should not be talking about anything related to economy

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*roll eyes*

isk sink removes isk from the economy. mining is an isk faucet BECUZ YOU CAN USE THE MINERALS TO CLAIM SHIP INSURANCE and thus minerals can be equated to isk FROM DED or watever insurance company it is which hasnt gone bankrupt yet. warren buffet would be proud.

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Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

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Originally by: Jennai

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anyone who claims mining is an isk sink obviously has no idea what an isk sink actually is and should not be talking about anything related to economy

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*roll eyes*

isk sink removes isk from the economy. mining is an isk faucet BECUZ YOU CAN USE THE MINERALS TO CLAIM SHIP INSURANCE and thus minerals can be equated to isk FROM DED or watever insurance company it is which hasnt gone bankrupt yet. warren buffet would be proud.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Okay, that's it. You are on the KOS list, and you better pray that I don't have access to a locater agent.

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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No, mining is an ISK sink because it goes like so:

You mine X many minerals, no new ISK is introduced into the economy.
You sell Y many minerals to player A, he pays with ISK he got from where ever, yet no new ISK is introduced into the system through the act of mining.
Player A pays Z much tax, which goes to NPC corporations who don't affect the economy... which means that Z much ISK disappears from the economy due to sales tax.

--> When you mine minerals nothing happens to the economy. When you sell minerals you just get ISKies from a player who earned them a different way. When that happens sales tax is payed and that ISK disappears from the economny. Hence, mining is an ISK sink.

It's fun to post this with a Dev account for a change. It's not so much fun to realize this party is boring enough for me to be posting here. Well, off to the next one then. Happy new years peeps and pipettes then. Durr!

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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No, mining is an ISK sink because it goes like so:

You mine X many minerals, no new ISK is introduced into the economy.
You sell Y many minerals to player A, he pays with ISK he got from where ever, yet no new ISK is introduced into the system through the act of mining.
Player A pays Z much tax, which goes to NPC corporations who don't affect the economy... which means that Z much ISK disappears from the economy due to sales tax.

--> When you mine minerals nothing happens to the economy. When you sell minerals you just get ISKies from a player who earned them a different way. When that happens sales tax is payed and that ISK disappears from the economny. Hence, mining is an ISK sink.

It's fun to post this with a Dev account for a change. It's not so much fun to realize this party is boring enough for me to be posting here. Well, off to the next one then. Happy new years peeps and pipettes then. Durr!

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Originally by: Princess ****oo

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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No, mining is an ISK sink because it goes like so:

You mine X many minerals, no new ISK is introduced into the economy.
You sell Y many minerals to player A, he pays with ISK he got from where ever, yet no new ISK is introduced into the system through the act of mining.
Player A pays Z much tax, which goes to NPC corporations who don't affect the economy... which means that Z much ISK disappears from the economy due to sales tax.

--> When you mine minerals nothing happens to the economy. When you sell minerals you just get ISKies from a player who earned them a different way. When that happens sales tax is payed and that ISK disappears from the economny. Hence, mining is an ISK sink.

It's fun to post this with a Dev account for a change. It's not so much fun to realize this party is boring enough for me to be posting here. Well, off to the next one then. Happy new years peeps and pipettes then. Durr!

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oh lol even dev is a noob

mining is an isk faucet while TAX is an isk sink
wat happened if i dont do any transactions based on my minerals i just build a ship (sinking the factory fee ofc) then blow it up to claim the insurance.

minerals = ships = insurance = isk faucet
therefore since everything = mineral

creation of any items that can be reprocessed into minerals is a faucet

end communication

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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Mining being a faucet due to minerals being used to produce other things...
...dude check yourself. You're not understanding the faucet / sink concept. Sorry.

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Originally by: Nyphur

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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No, mining is an ISK sink because it goes like so:

You mine X many minerals, no new ISK is introduced into the economy.
You sell Y many minerals to player A, he pays with ISK he got from where ever, yet no new ISK is introduced into the system through the act of mining.
Player A pays Z much tax, which goes to NPC corporations who don't affect the economy... which means that Z much ISK disappears from the economy due to sales tax.

--> When you mine minerals nothing happens to the economy. When you sell minerals you just get ISKies from a player who earned them a different way. When that happens sales tax is payed and that ISK disappears from the economny. Hence, mining is an ISK sink.

It's fun to post this with a Dev account for a change. It's not so much fun to realize this party is boring enough for me to be posting here. Well, off to the next one then. Happy new years peeps and pipettes then. Durr!

---

Do you realise that you just said mining is an isk sink because minerals are sold on the market and the market has fees? In that case, the market fees are an isk sink. The act of mining itself is not, nor can you assume that mined minerals will be sold on the market or contracts where fees are applied or even sold at all.

Although the original poster is probably drunk, the point he is making is that minerals can be converted into isk via the insurance system and that the insurance system itself is an isk faucet. Mining itself is neither a faucet nor a sink, it does nothing to the isk currently in the game unless those minerals are sold or built into ships which are then destroyed (factory fees notwithstanding from building non-ships).

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Originally by: DigitalCommunist

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You're a square Nyphur, I'm sure it was ¼_¼

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Originally by: Erel Kighas

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If you don't think adding objects to the game is the same as an isk faucet, please, by all means,drop 1000 Armageddons into my hanger at your lesiure.. I won't mind a bit, nor will my wallet a few hours of insurance fraud later.

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Originally by: Dimagus

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Material Faucet = Adds new materials to the game (Mining)
Material Sink = Removes existing materials from the game (Destroying Ships)
ISK Faucet = Adds new ISK to the game (Bounties)
ISK Sink = Removes existing ISK from the game (Tax)

Econoneutral = Neither adds nor removes material/ISK from the game. (Trading, Refining)

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Originally by: Nyphur

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Originally by: DigitalCommunist

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You're a square Nyphur, I'm sure it was ¼_¼

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But it's hip to be a square!

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Originally by: Nyphur

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.
An isk faucet is a term that strictly refers to a process which adds isk to the game world which previously did not exist. An isk sink is a term that strictly refers to a process which removes isk from the game world. In that sense, spawning 1000 armageddons and putting them in your hanger would not be an isk faucet or sink on its own.

Even if you sold them to other players, no new isk is created or destroyed so there's still no isk faucet or sink. However, if you self-destructed the ship, you'd get insurance isk that previously was not in the game and is therefore an isk faucet. In this system, the insurance system is the isk faucet, not the spawning of 1000 armageddons.

It's the same with mining ore and building ships from the refined minerals from it. No new isk is created and no existing isk is destroyed when mining or refining. A small factory fee may apply when building the ship which would be an isk sink. When the ship is built, selling it to another player does not create new isk or destroy existing isk, so there's no isk faucet or sink there. Getting the ship blown up, however, would create new isk in the form of the insurance payout just as with the 1000 spawned armageddon example. The insurance system, once again, is the only isk faucet in the system.

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Originally by: Erel Kighas

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Originally by: Dimagus

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Material Faucet = Adds new materials to the game (Mining)
Material Sink = Removes existing materials from the game (Destroying Ships)
ISK Faucet = Adds new ISK to the game (Bounties)
ISK Sink = Removes existing ISK from the game (Tax)

Econoneutral = Neither adds nor removes material/ISK from the game. (Trading, Refining)

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so does a carrier that smartbomb-camps a gate cause inflation or deflation?

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Originally by: Dimagus

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The materials that the ship was made of was lost, the implants the pilot had were lost (if podded), but since no actual ISK is lost yet insurance can generate ISK, it actually inflates the economy.

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Originally by: Erel Kighas

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Originally by: Dimagus

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Material Faucet = Adds new materials to the game (Mining)
Material Sink = Removes existing materials from the game (Destroying Ships)
ISK Faucet = Adds new ISK to the game (Bounties)
ISK Sink = Removes existing ISK from the game (Tax)

Econoneutral = Neither adds nor removes material/ISK from the game. (Trading, Refining)

---

so does a carrier that smartbomb-camps a gate cause inflation or deflation?

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Originally by: Zeba

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Mining is not an isk faucet until you get 3 hulks and a max skill rigged cargo II indy hauling it for you. Granted the isk I'm getting is not out of thin air like mission runners produce but ffs its close enough for me.

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Originally by: Frug

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Insurance can turn it into an indirect faucet. Pwnt.

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Originally by: Caligulus

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The real problem is over crowding.

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Originally by: Frug

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Insurance can turn it into an indirect faucet. Pwnt.

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Which means that insurance on ships creates ISK, not mining.

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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New party, new post! w00t!

Right-o. Normally I'd show you nay-sayers a thing or two but I'm to happy-go-lucky right now to dig into the forum warriorness.

Mining does not introduce newly pressed ISK.
Selling removes ISK due to tax.

True.

Mining being a faucet due to minerals being used to produce other things...
...dude check yourself. You're not understanding the faucet / sink concept. Sorry.

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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No, mining is an ISK sink because it goes like so:

You mine X many minerals, no new ISK is introduced into the economy.
You sell Y many minerals to player A, he pays with ISK he got from where ever, yet no new ISK is introduced into the system through the act of mining.
Player A pays Z much tax, which goes to NPC corporations who don't affect the economy... which means that Z much ISK disappears from the economy due to sales tax.

--> When you mine minerals nothing happens to the economy. When you sell minerals you just get ISKies from a player who earned them a different way. When that happens sales tax is payed and that ISK disappears from the economny. Hence, mining is an ISK sink.

It's fun to post this with a Dev account for a change. It's not so much fun to realize this party is boring enough for me to be posting here. Well, off to the next one then. Happy new years peeps and pipettes then. Durr!

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Originally by: Graveyard Tan

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I call bull**** and troll. If you are deaf, how are you even able to read this or type replies?

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Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

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Actually, why not do it the old fashion way. Take a pen and draw a line vertically and split the paper into two. One side, mining is sink and the other side, mining is faucet. Then put all your reasons why mining is sink or faucet and see which side wins and close this debate.

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Originally by: Rachel Vend

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... with 100% reliability in most cases ...

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Originally by: Ed Kraka

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im so awesome, i wish i was me in real life!

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Originally by: Ulstan

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All right so, let's make a deal. Worried about inflation? Give me 4 billion worth of minerals. Why not? As you said, nothing will happen to the economy. I will then sell them to someone, and pay sales tax. Voila! ISK sink!


Seriously, in your opinion, an economy with enough minerals stockpiled to build 40 titans is exactly the same as an economy without any minerals stock piled at all? You don't imagine that a shortage or excess of minerals coming in has *some* effect on the economy?

Moreover, if you use the sales tax reasoning, *anything* can be classified as an ISK sink. I go out and mission and get modules and sell those on the market and *boom* sales tax! ISK sink!

Mining is adding value to the market from nothing, not simply transferring wealth from one player to another. Therefore, it's a faucet of some kind.

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Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

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Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 01/01/2008 20:26:18
Actually, I have been thinking. Are collecting NPC bounties and loot ISK faucets?

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Originally by: Ammon Skycloud

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Originally by: Ulstan

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You don't imagine that a shortage or excess of minerals coming in has *some* effect on the economy?


Mining is adding value to the market from nothing, not simply transferring wealth from one player to another. Therefore, it's a faucet of some kind.

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And yes it is simply a mechanism to transfer isk from one player to another, it does not create isk, there are no faucets involved, no matter how you look at it.

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Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

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Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 01/01/2008 20:26:18
Actually, I have been thinking. Are collecting NPC bounties and loot ISK faucets?

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Originally by: Rachel Vend

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... with 100% reliability in most cases ...

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Originally by: Druadan

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Edited by: Druadan on 01/01/2008 23:55:49
If mining isn't a faucet, then where does the value of the ore come from? Does some rich mothersticker seed the asteroid fields with money out of his own wallet? No.

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Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

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Miner mines and NPCer collects. The way I see it, the whole picture is mining can be a faucet because miner sells materals to NPCer and NPCer makes money out of nowhere. So I think mining is a faucet.

Am I right or wrong? I am confused. LOL I don't have a degree in economics and I only have a McJob. Please don't say anything bad about my reasoning. I am trying to learn something here. Thank you.

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Originally by: DigitalCommunist

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Originally by: Druadan

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Edited by: Druadan on 01/01/2008 23:55:49
If mining isn't a faucet, then where does the value of the ore come from? Does some rich mothersticker seed the asteroid fields with money out of his own wallet? No.

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You're not getting off that easy, sir.

NPCs sell modules for a certain price. Those modules refine into a certain amount of minerals. This is your price ceiling.

Ships take a certain amount of minerals to build. Insurance gives a certain amount of ISK. This is your price floor.

However unlikely, if the mineral market crashes or inflates, players will either build and self destruct ships or mass refine NPC goods.

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Originally by: Druadan

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That's nowhere near the topic of conversation I was on. A faucet is something that pours value in. If mining isn't a faucet, then the ore must have no relative value, which means the value of the ore would be coming from a source already in the economy.

Value, not price.

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Originally by: DigitalCommunist

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You can't have "value faucets"

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Originally by: Druadan

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Originally by: DigitalCommunist

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Originally by: Druadan

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Edited by: Druadan on 01/01/2008 23:55:49
If mining isn't a faucet, then where does the value of the ore come from? Does some rich mothersticker seed the asteroid fields with money out of his own wallet? No.

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You're not getting off that easy, sir.

NPCs sell modules for a certain price. Those modules refine into a certain amount of minerals. This is your price ceiling.

Ships take a certain amount of minerals to build. Insurance gives a certain amount of ISK. This is your price floor.

However unlikely, if the mineral market crashes or inflates, players will either build and self destruct ships or mass refine NPC goods.

---

That's nowhere near the topic of conversation I was on. A faucet is something that pours value in. If mining isn't a faucet, then the ore must have no relative value, which means the value of the ore would be coming from a source already in the economy.

Value, not price.

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Originally by: Frug

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Edited by: Frug on 02/01/2008 00:28:07

Originally by: Druadan

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That's nowhere near the topic of conversation I was on. A faucet is something that pours value in. If mining isn't a faucet, then the ore must have no relative value, which means the value of the ore would be coming from a source already in the economy.

Value, not price.

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That point has already pretty much been made, and anyone who doesn't get it is dumb.

But what is being said is that technically the "isk faucet" is the insurance itself, not the mining. Of course the mining is what leads to the insurance, and without the mining the insurance doesn't mean ****. But technically its the insurance. Why that matters at all, and why attaching the "faucet" label to one and not the other matters to anyone I don't know.

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Originally by: NightF0x

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i believe my IQ dropped a few points from reading this

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Aside from the fact that that logic is like saying mining is pvp combat (cause you can't have one without the other), how about all the things you can build with minerals that you do not get any kind of insurance for?

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Quote:

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Mining does not create, nor could it possibly, create any new ISK (currency) unless there are npc buyers on the market for ore, minerals, or anything that can be built with minerals.

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Originally by: Frug

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How, jesus god how is it possible that you're still typing things?
You mine, build a ship, and blow it up. Look, the minerals you mined were just converted into isk. What exactly are you saying?

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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That would be Insurance as the ISK faucet then. Assuming you insure it because you missed that step in your reply.

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Originally by: Frug

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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That would be Insurance as the ISK faucet then. Assuming you insure it because you missed that step in your reply.

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- I already mentioned that earlier.

- There's a base insurance. You don't have to do anything.

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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Then it's still insurance thats the faucet. The mining didn't create the ISK, the insurance did.

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Originally by: Frug

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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Then it's still insurance thats the faucet. The mining didn't create the ISK, the insurance did.

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- I already said that earlier.

This thread is giving me nerdrage. Stop shortening my lifespan plz.

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Originally by: Frug

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You're... hurting... me....

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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In fact ISK sinks are ISK faucets.

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Originally by: Frug

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I just realized your name is Richard Phallus.

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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Originally by: Frug

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I just realized your name is Richard Phallus.

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My name is also an ISK faucet in case you were wondering.

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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No, mining is an ISK sink because it goes like so:

You mine X many minerals, no new ISK is introduced into the economy.
You sell Y many minerals to player A, he pays with ISK he got from where ever, yet no new ISK is introduced into the system through the act of mining.
Player A pays Z much tax, which goes to NPC corporations who don't affect the economy... which means that Z much ISK disappears from the economy due to sales tax.

--> When you mine minerals nothing happens to the economy. When you sell minerals you just get ISKies from a player who earned them a different way. When that happens sales tax is payed and that ISK disappears from the economny. Hence, mining is an ISK sink.

It's fun to post this with a Dev account for a change. It's not so much fun to realize this party is boring enough for me to be posting here. Well, off to the next one then. Happy new years peeps and pipettes then. Durr!

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Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny

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HA! You guys just got dev pwned

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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New party, new post! w00t!

Right-o. Normally I'd show you nay-sayers a thing or two but I'm to happy-go-lucky right now to dig into the forum warriorness.

Mining does not introduce newly pressed ISK.
Selling removes ISK due to tax.

True.

Mining being a faucet due to minerals being used to produce other things...
...dude check yourself. You're not understanding the faucet / sink concept. Sorry.

---

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

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if a person had a pen, and a spare pen. the person never uses the spare pen until it dies off from old age. was the spare pen "useful".

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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Edited by: Richard Phallus on 02/01/2008 19:49:24
So either the proper definition can be used or everything becomes an ISK faucet under the new definition. <3 CCP Prism X

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Originally by: Exlegion

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Mining itself is neither an isk sink or faucet. But it does create deflation since it does add material into the system. More material at zero change in isk means isk gains vaule.

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Originally by: Frug

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If you say "Bah is an isk faucet" I'm going to find and pod you phallus.

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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so your ignoring the dev huh?

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Originally by: Yohanes Flame

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So every ship built in the game that evidentially gets blown up does not inject mystery isk into the market?

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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Insurance is a faucet, and I never said anything else,

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Originally by: Vito Parabellum

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Mining is a indirect isk faucet. Argue definitions all night long but at the end of the (mining) day, there's new isk in the economy.

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Originally by: Vito Parabellum

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Mining is a indirect isk faucet. Argue definitions all night long but at the end of the (mining) day, there's new isk in the economy.

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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Originally by: Vito Parabellum

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Mining is a indirect isk faucet. Argue definitions all night long but at the end of the (mining) day, there's new isk in the economy.

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/HEADDESK

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Originally by: Frug

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He's right you know. I read prism, I like prism, and I don't think his statement contradicts this at all. He's arguing definitions. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day there's new isk in the economy is true.

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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Edited by: Richard Phallus on 02/01/2008 21:11:32

Originally by: Frug

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He's right you know. I read prism, I like prism, and I don't think his statement contradicts this at all. He's arguing definitions. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day there's new isk in the economy is true.

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The problem is the term he is are using, yea mining can be used in a round about way to generate new ISk, no one is arguing this. It's just not called an ISK faucet. You are trying to change the definition of a term, and it will be a more confusing definition because then it includes any activity in Eve.

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Originally by: Frug

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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Originally by: Vito Parabellum

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Mining is a indirect isk faucet. Argue definitions all night long but at the end of the (mining) day, there's new isk in the economy.

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/HEADDESK

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He's right you know. I read prism, I like prism, and I don't think his statement contradicts this at all. He's arguing definitions. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day there's new isk in the economy is true.

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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so you Weren't on the side of the dev!
I knew it god damn it.
I hope he comes back and says your wrong by name.
if I mine I don't have to sell it. I can keep it to myself and then build ship that I will never insure
yeah that's right I mine and then build ships and then I don't insure them. and then I explode.
what now?

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Originally by: Exlegion

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Originally by: Frug

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Originally by: Richard Phallus

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Originally by: Vito Parabellum

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Mining is a indirect isk faucet. Argue definitions all night long but at the end of the (mining) day, there's new isk in the economy.

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/HEADDESK

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He's right you know. I read prism, I like prism, and I don't think his statement contradicts this at all. He's arguing definitions. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day there's new isk in the economy is true.

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He's blaming mining for isk injection caused by ship destruction. It's like saying purse designers increase the crime rate:

1. Designer designs purse
2. People wear purse
3. People get mugged
4. Therefore Designer is indirectly responsible for mugs.

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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no your not saying the same thing

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Oh dear, how about we all calm down a bit instead?

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Originally by: Fenderson

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the isk faucet is insurance, not mining.

if you removed insurance, there would be no way to turn minerals into new isk in the economy. therefore, mining is not an isk faucet but insurance is.

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Originally by: cal nereus

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Originally by: Fenderson

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the isk faucet is insurance, not mining.

if you removed insurance, there would be no way to turn minerals into new isk in the economy. therefore, mining is not an isk faucet but insurance is.

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Thank you.

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Quote:

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And yes it is simply a mechanism to transfer isk from one player to another, it does not create isk, there are no faucets involved, no matter how you look at it.

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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Originally by: Vito Parabellum

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Mining is a indirect isk faucet. Argue definitions all night long but at the end of the (mining) day, there's new isk in the economy.

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YOU KNOW WHAT !

I think dev posts should automacticly head to the 1st page so PEOPLE WILL READ THEM
!!!!!

/headdesk

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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I would like to point something else out.

what if I build modules with my minerals I mined?


and yes insurance is a faucet.
no matter what you do it is.

however mining can do lots of things besides build ships.

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Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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I would like to point something else out.

what if I build modules with my minerals I mined?


and yes insurance is a faucet.
no matter what you do it is.

however mining can do lots of things besides build ships.

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hey you know what i can a terrorist do with nuclear missiles they got from north korea, use it as paper weight. therefore nuclear weapons are not WMD, they are paper weight. just because you can do x with something doesnt mean that it loses all its attributes gained from beig able to do y.

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/01/2008 02:10:06

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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I would like to point something else out.

what if I build modules with my minerals I mined?


and yes insurance is a faucet.
no matter what you do it is.

however mining can do lots of things besides build ships.

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hey you know what i can a terrorist do with nuclear missiles they got from north korea, use it as paper weight. therefore nuclear weapons are not WMD, they are paper weight. just because you can do x with something doesnt mean that it loses all its attributes gained from beig able to do y.

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Quit while you're behind.

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/01/2008 02:10:06

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

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hey you know what i can a terrorist do with nuclear missiles they got from north korea, use it as paper weight. therefore nuclear weapons are not WMD, they are paper weight. just because you can do x with something doesnt mean that it loses all its attributes gained from beig able to do y.

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Quit while you're behind.

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Originally by: Frug

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/01/2008 02:10:06

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

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hey you know what i can a terrorist do with nuclear missiles they got from north korea, use it as paper weight. therefore nuclear weapons are not WMD, they are paper weight. just because you can do x with something doesnt mean that it loses all its attributes gained from beig able to do y.

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Quit while you're behind.

---

Eh, you have consistently failed this thread.

If you modified insurance to give you the option to gain minerals instead of isk, it wouldn't cease to be an isk faucet.

---

Originally by: CCP Prism X

---

Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/01/2008 19:40:43
First and foremost, and the only reason I'm bothering to post the same thing over again:
CCP Prism X <> CCP Kieron!

Secondly, you're wrong. You can redefine what you want but I am not accepting your redefinition without an argument as to why it is better than the current definition. However, in the spirit of camaraderie I shall explain to you why:

*Here used to be a huge part explaining how transitive relationships are not a fact of logical implications but rather an attribute certain universes/sets/whatEverYouWantToCallIt have.. it took up too much space and is lost on anyone who doesn't understand it already anyways.*

You're trying to tell me that because you can use minerals to build ships who can then be insured and lost thus injecting insurance payout money into the economy, which is definetly a faucet, then mining should be considered a faucet? It's wrong on many levels. I could tackle this from so many different directions but instead I'm just going to ruin your universal quantification by reminding you that not everything from minerals becomes insurable. Hence, mining cannot be a faucet in any universal sense.

If you want to argue that A is a faucet because Z is and A -> B -> C -> D ... -> X -> Y -> Z -> A you're welcome to it. I'm not joining a redundant argument like that. The act of mining injects 0 ISK into the economy, period. The act of selling something removes ISK from the economy, unless an NPC corporation is the buyer which is not the case with minerals or ore, another period. Insurance is a faucet, and I never said anything else, but that doesn't make mining a faucet however bad you desire it to be.. unless you come up with a new definition of an ISK faucet which I've already explained I will not accept on the grounds that it makes the entire discussion moot. You can make up a new term like value sink/faucet but that is well beyond the realm of game mechanics as it depends on supply and demand for starters, and thats a social thing.. I gave up on arguing about the nature of society after a year of elementary philosophy.

As last words:
ISK Faucet = The act of injecting ISK into the economy. Much like the act of forgery (because we don't inject ISK to rebalance the economy like national banks have to do, people don't lose a dime here and there in EVE).
ISK Sink = The act of removing ISK from the economy. Much like losing a dime into the gutter in the real world.

---

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

Originally by: MotherMoon

---

I would like to point something else out.

what if I build modules with my minerals I mined?


and yes insurance is a faucet.
no matter what you do it is.

however mining can do lots of things besides build ships.

---

hey you know what i can a terrorist do with nuclear missiles they got from north korea, use it as paper weight. therefore nuclear weapons are not WMD, they are paper weight. just because you can do x with something doesnt mean that it loses all its attributes gained from beig able to do y.

---

Originally by: Hannobaal

---

Originally by: Frug

---

Originally by: Hannobaal

---

Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/01/2008 02:10:06

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

hey you know what i can a terrorist do with nuclear missiles they got from north korea, use it as paper weight. therefore nuclear weapons are not WMD, they are paper weight. just because you can do x with something doesnt mean that it loses all its attributes gained from beig able to do y.

---

Quit while you're behind.

---

Eh, you have consistently failed this thread.

If you modified insurance to give you the option to gain minerals instead of isk, it wouldn't cease to be an isk faucet.

---

It's been explained to you people by at least dozen different posters, including a dev, why what you're saying is horrendously wrong. I don't know if you're the bigger idiot or if I am for still arguing with what must be either a troll or a complete moron.

---

Originally by: Sam Venture

---

I make ships, insure them, then self destruct to introduce massive amounts isk to the market........blowing up one shuttle at a time to screw with your prices

---

Originally by: Hannobaal

---

Originally by: Frug

---

Originally by: Hannobaal

---

Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/01/2008 02:10:06

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

hey you know what i can a terrorist do with nuclear missiles they got from north korea, use it as paper weight. therefore nuclear weapons are not WMD, they are paper weight. just because you can do x with something doesnt mean that it loses all its attributes gained from beig able to do y.

---

Quit while you're behind.

---

Eh, you have consistently failed this thread.

If you modified insurance to give you the option to gain minerals instead of isk, it wouldn't cease to be an isk faucet.

---

It's been explained to you people by at least dozen different posters, including a dev, why what you're saying is horrendously wrong. I don't know if you're the bigger idiot or if I am for still arguing with what must be either a troll or a complete moron.

---

Originally by: Jonis Sinmaker

---

Originally by: Hannobaal

---

Originally by: Frug

---

Originally by: Hannobaal

---

Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/01/2008 02:10:06

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

hey you know what i can a terrorist do with nuclear missiles they got from north korea, use it as paper weight. therefore nuclear weapons are not WMD, they are paper weight. just because you can do x with something doesnt mean that it loses all its attributes gained from beig able to do y.

---

Quit while you're behind.

---

Eh, you have consistently failed this thread.

If you modified insurance to give you the option to gain minerals instead of isk, it wouldn't cease to be an isk faucet.

---

It's been explained to you people by at least dozen different posters, including a dev, why what you're saying is horrendously wrong. I don't know if you're the bigger idiot or if I am for still arguing with what must be either a troll or a complete moron.

---

Hmmmm.....I agree....with a goon. damnit man!

---

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

well you see if you mine you get mine-rals (ahahah get it :P)

normally this would just create wealth cause theres more stuff for everyone.
and this would also deflate the economy (more stuff = deflation). BUT NO NO NO because all items in EvE is invariably equated to an amount of isk = to the insurance payout if you refine/reprocess the stuff and make ships.

and so for the low end market i.e. non t-2 ships non t-2+ mod theres no inflation/deflation. but im sure if you plot the average value of faction/officer mods you will se a gradual increase in price as people invariably make more money as time goes by.

tl;dr price of minerals is fixed so anything thats worth about its reprocessed equivalents are fixed

and only the hig-end market is a "free" market

so its very much like WoW run-away inflation will soon make faction mods worth more and more

ps. i am probably wrong
pps. actually i think im right


a question for you all

if a person had a pen, and a spare pen. the person never uses the spare pen until it dies off from old age. was the spare pen "useful".



end communication

---

Originally by: CCP Prism X

---

No, mining is an ISK sink because it goes like so:

You mine X many minerals, no new ISK is introduced into the economy.
You sell Y many minerals to player A, he pays with ISK he got from where ever, yet no new ISK is introduced into the system through the act of mining.
Player A pays Z much tax, which goes to NPC corporations who don't affect the economy... which means that Z much ISK disappears from the economy due to sales tax.

--> When you mine minerals nothing happens to the economy. When you sell minerals you just get ISKies from a player who earned them a different way. When that happens sales tax is payed and that ISK disappears from the economny. Hence, mining is an ISK sink.

It's fun to post this with a Dev account for a change. It's not so much fun to realize this party is boring enough for me to be posting here. Well, off to the next one then. Happy new years peeps and pipettes then. Durr!

---

Originally by: CCP Prism X

---

Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/01/2008 19:40:43
First and foremost, and the only reason I'm bothering to post the same thing over again:
CCP Prism X <> CCP Kieron!

Secondly, you're wrong. You can redefine what you want but I am not accepting your redefinition without an argument as to why it is better than the current definition. However, in the spirit of camaraderie I shall explain to you why:

*Here used to be a huge part explaining how transitive relationships are not a fact of logical implications but rather an attribute certain universes/sets/whatEverYouWantToCallIt have.. it took up too much space and is lost on anyone who doesn't understand it already anyways.*

You're trying to tell me that because you can use minerals to build ships who can then be insured and lost thus injecting insurance payout money into the economy, which is definetly a faucet, then mining should be considered a faucet? It's wrong on many levels. I could tackle this from so many different directions but instead I'm just going to ruin your universal quantification by reminding you that not everything from minerals becomes insurable. Hence, mining cannot be a faucet in any universal sense.

If you want to argue that A is a faucet because Z is and A -> B -> C -> D ... -> X -> Y -> Z -> A you're welcome to it. I'm not joining a redundant argument like that. The act of mining injects 0 ISK into the economy, period. The act of selling something removes ISK from the economy, unless an NPC corporation is the buyer which is not the case with minerals or ore, another period. Insurance is a faucet, and I never said anything else, but that doesn't make mining a faucet however bad you desire it to be.. unless you come up with a new definition of an ISK faucet which I've already explained I will not accept on the grounds that it makes the entire discussion moot. You can make up a new term like value sink/faucet but that is well beyond the realm of game mechanics as it depends on supply and demand for starters, and thats a social thing.. I gave up on arguing about the nature of society after a year of elementary philosophy.

As last words:
ISK Faucet = The act of injecting ISK into the economy. Much like the act of forgery (because we don't inject ISK to rebalance the economy like national banks have to do, people don't lose a dime here and there in EVE).
ISK Sink = The act of removing ISK from the economy. Much like losing a dime into the gutter in the real world.

---

Originally by: Grace

---

Edited by: Grace on 03/01/2008 03:07:16

Originally by: CCP Prism X

---

No, mining is an ISK sink because it goes like so:

You mine X many minerals, no new ISK is introduced into the economy.
You sell Y many minerals to player A, he pays with ISK he got from where ever, yet no new ISK is introduced into the system through the act of mining.
Player A pays Z much tax, which goes to NPC corporations who don't affect the economy... which means that Z much ISK disappears from the economy due to sales tax.

--> When you mine minerals nothing happens to the economy. When you sell minerals you just get ISKies from a player who earned them a different way. When that happens sales tax is payed and that ISK disappears from the economny. Hence, mining is an ISK sink.

It's fun to post this with a Dev account for a change. It's not so much fun to realize this party is boring enough for me to be posting here. Well, off to the next one then. Happy new years peeps and pipettes then. Durr!

---

Originally by: CCP Prism X

---

Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/01/2008 19:40:43
First and foremost, and the only reason I'm bothering to post the same thing over again:
CCP Prism X <> CCP Kieron!

Secondly, you're wrong. You can redefine what you want but I am not accepting your redefinition without an argument as to why it is better than the current definition. However, in the spirit of camaraderie I shall explain to you why:

*Here used to be a huge part explaining how transitive relationships are not a fact of logical implications but rather an attribute certain universes/sets/whatEverYouWantToCallIt have.. it took up too much space and is lost on anyone who doesn't understand it already anyways.*

You're trying to tell me that because you can use minerals to build ships who can then be insured and lost thus injecting insurance payout money into the economy, which is definetly a faucet, then mining should be considered a faucet? It's wrong on many levels. I could tackle this from so many different directions but instead I'm just going to ruin your universal quantification by reminding you that not everything from minerals becomes insurable. Hence, mining cannot be a faucet in any universal sense.

If you want to argue that A is a faucet because Z is and A -> B -> C -> D ... -> X -> Y -> Z -> A you're welcome to it. I'm not joining a redundant argument like that. The act of mining injects 0 ISK into the economy, period. The act of selling something removes ISK from the economy, unless an NPC corporation is the buyer which is not the case with minerals or ore, another period. Insurance is a faucet, and I never said anything else, but that doesn't make mining a faucet however bad you desire it to be.. unless you come up with a new definition of an ISK faucet which I've already explained I will not accept on the grounds that it makes the entire discussion moot. You can make up a new term like value sink/faucet but that is well beyond the realm of game mechanics as it depends on supply and demand for starters, and thats a social thing.. I gave up on arguing about the nature of society after a year of elementary philosophy.

As last words:
ISK Faucet = The act of injecting ISK into the economy. Much like the act of forgery (because we don't inject ISK to rebalance the economy like national banks have to do, people don't lose a dime here and there in EVE).
ISK Sink = The act of removing ISK from the economy. Much like losing a dime into the gutter in the real world.

---

I'm sorry, but didn't you just contradict yourself?

It's okay to admit that you posted drunk, no one will blame you

---

Originally by: Hannobaal

---

It's been explained to you people by at least dozen different posters, including a dev, why what you're saying is horrendously wrong. I don't know if you're the bigger idiot or if I am for still arguing with what must be either a troll or a complete moron.

---

Originally by: David Khan

---

Edited by: David Khan on 03/01/2008 03:13:01
Mining does not create isk, therefore it is not a faucet.

I don't get what's so hard about this concept.

---

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

Edited by: Kyrial Tidolfas on 03/01/2008 03:54:50

Originally by: David Khan

---

Edited by: David Khan on 03/01/2008 03:13:01
Mining does not create isk, therefore it is not a faucet.

I don't get what's so hard about this concept.

---

mmmm.....peas

---

Originally by: Gerard Deneth

---

Edited by: Gerard Deneth on 03/01/2008 06:31:49
Edited by: Gerard Deneth on 03/01/2008 06:27:21
Alright, seeing as how I've slept through some economics classes, I think I should wade in.

To illustrate how mining is NOT an ISK sink, I'm going to build a small little scenario. This is much simplified, your mileage may vary, objects in the mirror are closer than they appear, yadda yadda.

Okay, we have two players. One has 100 ISK, and 100 units of Tritanium. The other has nothing. We'll call them A and B. B has nothing, but he DOES have a mining laser. So he goes out and mines 100 tritanium. Player B then sells his tritanium to Player A for 50 ISK.

Has any money been introduced into the economy? No. Has the value of Trit dropped? Conceivably yes, as there is more trit in the economy without a comparable increase in ISK. Conversely, you could argue that the value of ISK has been decreased. There's a limit to the example after all :p.

However, this isn't quite true for the actual game. When Player A buys the Trit, he pays some tax on the transaction, and so player B dosen't get 50 ISK, but instead, say... 45 ISK. That tax is a sink.

Player A then uses his 200 Trit to build a module, let's say a shield booster. That costs 25 ISK for the manufacturing time.

Now, let's say that we add Player C. Player C also has 100 ISK. Player A then sells his shield booster to Player C for 100 ISK. Once again, we have some tax (that sink again) so Player A gets only 95 ISK.

So what's happened? Has Player A made ISK? Assuming he got his initial 100 trit for free, yes. He has made 20 ISK. But has any money been introduced into the economy? Nope.

(edited to correct faulty math)

---

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

Originally by: Gerard Deneth

---

Edited by: Gerard Deneth on 03/01/2008 06:31:49
Edited by: Gerard Deneth on 03/01/2008 06:27:21
Alright, seeing as how I've slept through some economics classes, I think I should wade in.

To illustrate how mining is NOT an ISK sink, I'm going to build a small little scenario. This is much simplified, your mileage may vary, objects in the mirror are closer than they appear, yadda yadda.

Okay, we have two players. One has 100 ISK, and 100 units of Tritanium. The other has nothing. We'll call them A and B. B has nothing, but he DOES have a mining laser. So he goes out and mines 100 tritanium. Player B then sells his tritanium to Player A for 50 ISK.

Has any money been introduced into the economy? No. Has the value of Trit dropped? Conceivably yes, as there is more trit in the economy without a comparable increase in ISK. Conversely, you could argue that the value of ISK has been decreased. There's a limit to the example after all :p.

However, this isn't quite true for the actual game. When Player A buys the Trit, he pays some tax on the transaction, and so player B dosen't get 50 ISK, but instead, say... 45 ISK. That tax is a sink.

Player A then uses his 200 Trit to build a module, let's say a shield booster. That costs 25 ISK for the manufacturing time.

Now, let's say that we add Player C. Player C also has 100 ISK. Player A then sells his shield booster to Player C for 100 ISK. Once again, we have some tax (that sink again) so Player A gets only 95 ISK.

So what's happened? Has Player A made ISK? Assuming he got his initial 100 trit for free, yes. He has made 20 ISK. But has any money been introduced into the economy? Nope.

(edited to correct faulty math)

---

oh god why do people reiterate the same thing. cant you just actually refute MY ARGUMENTS instead of reinstating the mining does not introduce isk.

the problem is with the fact that mining allows you to make ships to claim insurance and i chose to say to this makes mining a faucet because insurance is a faucet. of course a bunch of people (the smart ones) came out and said that its the insurance and not mining. thought some ******** monkeys kept explaining isk faucet and trading etc.

the descrepancies lie in the definition of isk faucet. if its any acticity that directly injects isk then mining is not a faucet. otherwise, if you define any activity that can lead to isk being injected as isk faucet then mining is a faucet.

but then everything is a faucet. but theres nothing wrong with that.

---

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

oh god why do people reiterate the same thing. cant you just actually refute MY ARGUMENTS instead of reinstating the mining does not introduce isk.

the problem is with the fact that mining allows you to make ships to claim insurance and i chose to say to this makes mining a faucet because insurance is a faucet. of course a bunch of people (the smart ones) came out and said that its the insurance and not mining. thought some ******** monkeys kept explaining isk faucet and trading etc.

the descrepancies lie in the definition of isk faucet. if its any acticity that directly injects isk then mining is not a faucet. otherwise, if you define any activity that can lead to isk being injected as isk faucet then mining is a faucet.

but then everything is a faucet. but theres nothing wrong with that.

---

Originally by: CCP Wrangler

---

Oh dear, how about we all calm down a bit instead?

---

Originally by: cal nereus

---

Basically, the OP is trying to redefine a word. Some of us don't subscribe to that, so we get this thread.

---

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

oh god why do people reiterate the same thing. cant you just actually refute MY ARGUMENTS instead of reinstating the mining does not introduce isk.

the problem is with the fact that mining allows you to make ships to claim insurance and i chose to say to this makes mining a faucet because insurance is a faucet. of course a bunch of people (the smart ones) came out and said that its the insurance and not mining. thought some ******** monkeys kept explaining isk faucet and trading etc.

the descrepancies lie in the definition of isk faucet. if its any acticity that directly injects isk then mining is not a faucet. otherwise, if you define any activity that can lead to isk being injected as isk faucet then mining is a faucet.

but then everything is a faucet. but theres nothing wrong with that.

---

Quote:

---

oh god why do people reiterate the same thing. cant you just actually refute MY ARGUMENTS instead of reinstating the mining does not introduce isk.

---

Quote:

---

the problem is with the fact that mining allows you to make ships to claim insurance and i chose to say to this makes mining a faucet because insurance is a faucet. of course a bunch of people (the smart ones) came out and said that its the insurance and not mining. thought some ******** monkeys kept explaining isk faucet and trading etc.

the descrepancies lie in the definition of isk faucet. if its any activity that directly injects isk then mining is not a faucet. otherwise, if you define any activity that can lead to isk being injected as isk faucet then mining is a faucet.

---

Quote:

---

but then everything is a faucet. but theres nothing wrong with that.

---

Originally by: Frug

---

Pfft. It doesn't matter what the op says if you just come and start explaining what a faucet is.

I think the real killer was Prism's first reply, which somehow ignores the whole subject of insurance... Which I think the OP assumes is pretty key to the discussion.

If mining directly injected isk into the economy there wouldn't be a point in him making a thread about how its ACTUALLY an isk faucet, would there? That'd be as pointless as making a post about how rat bounties are actually an isk faucet.

The discussion should have just gone about what you consider the role of mining to play considering the fact that it does not directly create any isk, but indirectly feeds insurance payouts. That's obvious isn't it? But noooOOooo.

---

Originally by: cal nereus

---

Life is death and death is life. Geico sells car insurance in every American state except Massachusetts, 'cause Boston is crazy like that.

This is about as relevant as I can get right now...

---

Originally by: cal nereus

---

Life is death and death is life. Geico sells car insurance in every American state except Massachusetts, 'cause Boston is crazy like that.

This is about as relevant as I can get right now...

---

Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth

---

Quote:

---

oh god why do people reiterate the same thing. cant you just actually refute MY ARGUMENTS instead of reinstating the mining does not introduce isk.

---

People have refuted your arguments, and I assume by this, you accept the fact that mining does not directly introduce isk into the economy.

Quote:

---

the problem is with the fact that mining allows you to make ships to claim insurance and i chose to say to this makes mining a faucet because insurance is a faucet. of course a bunch of people (the smart ones) came out and said that its the insurance and not mining. thought some ******** monkeys kept explaining isk faucet and trading etc.

the descrepancies lie in the definition of isk faucet. if its any activity that directly injects isk then mining is not a faucet. otherwise, if you define any activity that can lead to isk being injected as isk faucet then mining is a faucet.

---

The accepted definition of a faucet is one which directly injects isk into the economy which did not exist before. Of course this means insurance is a faucet as unlike the real world, EvE insurance payouts draw from an infinate pool of wealth.

Quote:

---

but then everything is a faucet. but theres nothing wrong with that.

---

Wrong, and only if you try to reinvent the wheel (i.e. redefine the meaning of the word), which people are not willing to do just so you can win an argument. I may as well make a post saying 2-2 = 4 if your all willing to accept my new definition of a '-' being a '+'

In closing -:

Mining adds a product to the economy, much like mining diamonds, oil or chopping down trees does in real life. It doesn't inject cash directly into the economy, sure it has a value determined by the eve market, but in itself does not bring isk into the economy.

It is therefore not a faucet.

Insurance
When a ship is destroyed and the payout received, the value of the payout is always greater than the insurance premium paid. Since the npc insurance company in EvE has an infinite bank of cash to payout from, it injects isk that never existed before into the EvE Economy, thus is a faucet.

---

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

the whole point of my argument was that it doesnt, but mining can and is being done as to lead to isk being injected. so i say mining is a faucet. now it might not be in the strictest sense of the word, but anyone can see that if there were significantly less mining there would be less insurance payout.

---

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

2. when did i ever say mining directly introduces isk into the economy. the whole point of my argument was that it doesnt, but mining can and is being done as to lead to isk being injected. so i say mining is a faucet. now it might not be in the strictest sense of the word, but anyone can see that if there were significantly less mining there would be less insurance payout.

---

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas

---

when did i ever say mining directly introduces isk into the economy.

---

Quote:

---

insurance creates NOTHING from THIN AIR. insurance ALWAYS requires something to feed it to spit something out.. it could not possibly be considered a faucet. insurance brings nothing into the economy, it may alter values slightly, but it enters NOTHING to this economy. i will say it again, it takes something from the economy and returns something.. value may change.

---

Quote:

---

i would consider an isk faucet anything that introduces the chosen currency (isk) into the closed economy from thin air (outside the economy

---

Originally by: Culdees

---

to play with the words themselves is meaningless, it is more important to talk about their true meaning. there are many replies in this thread that attempt to say that because the word isk exists, the meaning of isk faucet is purely about isk, not introducing currency into the economy regardless of what you call that currency. ie irl gold could and can still be used as currency many different ways, but to say mining gold introduces nothing to the economy is mad. in eve minerals can be used as currency because of the insurance system.

insurance creates NOTHING from THIN AIR. insurance ALWAYS requires something to feed it to spit something out.. it could not possibly be considered a faucet. insurance brings nothing into the economy, it may alter values slightly, but it enters NOTHING to this economy. i will say it again, it takes something from the economy and returns something.. value may change.

---

Originally by: Angel DeMorphis

---

So, while insurance is an ISK faucet, you can also call insurance a mineral sink. Minerals poor out of your closed ball of minerals, turn into ISK, and poor into your closed ball of ISK. One type's sink is another type's faucet, in this case.

---

Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth

---

I agree with what most your saying except the above - insurance isn't a mineral sink, the act of having your ship blown up is a mineral sink.

To receive an insurance payout necessitates that your ship is destroyed, but in itself did not remove your ship from the game and can't in this example be seen as a mineral sink (npc's or or players did that ;) ).

---

Originally by: Frug

---

If you can directly convert between isk and these materials, aren't they in a sense equivalent?

---

Originally by: Baxalusx

---

saying that insurance is seperate from mining is moronic because the only way to use insurance involves a miner at some point, and as such they're inextricably intertwined.

---

Originally by: Frug

---

If you can directly convert between isk and these materials, aren't they in a sense equivalent?

---

Originally by: Ulstan

---

Edited by: Ulstan on 02/01/2008 21:53:17

Quote:

---

And yes it is simply a mechanism to transfer isk from one player to another, it does not create isk, there are no faucets involved, no matter how you look at it.

---

No, mining is a faucet. A faucet is any mechanism of creating wealth out of thin air: missioning is a faucet, because of bounties and module drops. Mining is a faucet. Any method of gaining wealth for yourself that does *not* involve another player losing that same amount of wealth is a faucet. .....

---

Originally by: Baxalusx

---

mining is not an isk faucet because it does not necessarily create ISK simply by virtue of mining in the way, say, ratting does, but it can be used as an isk faucet through insurance. saying that insurance is seperate from mining is moronic because the only way to use insurance involves a miner at some point, and as such they're inextricably intertwined.

the terrible thing about this thread is that you're all stupid and are being awfully stupid about it; the dev that posted on page one should be forced to wear a dumb hat to work for a week

edit: language filters are dumb too

---

Originally by: Ammon Skycloud

---

Originally by: Ulstan

---

Edited by: Ulstan on 02/01/2008 21:53:17

Quote:

---

And yes it is simply a mechanism to transfer isk from one player to another, it does not create isk, there are no faucets involved, no matter how you look at it.

---

No, mining is a faucet. A faucet is any mechanism of creating wealth out of thin air: missioning is a faucet, because of bounties and module drops. Mining is a faucet. Any method of gaining wealth for yourself that does *not* involve another player losing that same amount of wealth is a faucet. .....

---

You read this before clicking post right, your comments above are actually proving me right .

---

Originally by: MotherMoon

---

Originally by: Ammon Skycloud

---

Originally by: Ulstan

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Edited by: Ulstan on 02/01/2008 21:53:17

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And yes it is simply a mechanism to transfer isk from one player to another, it does not create isk, there are no faucets involved, no matter how you look at it.

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No, mining is a faucet. A faucet is any mechanism of creating wealth out of thin air: missioning is a faucet, because of bounties and module drops. Mining is a faucet. Any method of gaining wealth for yourself that does *not* involve another player losing that same amount of wealth is a faucet. .....

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You read this before clicking post right, your comments above are actually proving me right .

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yeah what's up with that .

like he said then I guess as mining doesn't gain you any wealth unless you sell it.

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Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth

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Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 03/01/2008 14:58:33

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insurance creates NOTHING from THIN AIR. insurance ALWAYS requires something to feed it to spit something out.. it could not possibly be considered a faucet. insurance brings nothing into the economy, it may alter values slightly, but it enters NOTHING to this economy. i will say it again, it takes something from the economy and returns something.. value may change.

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Thats actually wrong, and here is why.

Lets say there is a billion isk in the eve game, i mine the minerals for a raven and build a raven, there is still a billion isk in the eve game. there is also a new raven in the game, and while it has a value determined by the eve market, is not currency (isk) in itself.

I sell a raven to my friend for 100 million isk via direct trade, there is still a billion isk in the eve game. (If i were to use the eve market, tax would be paid and a small amount of isk would actually be removed from the eve game).

My friend goes out and flies the raven and gets blown up. He receives basic insurance from the eve insurers of around 32million. There is now 1,032,000,000 isk in the eve game.

Insurance is then directly responsible for acting as a faucet. It has added 32 million isk into the eve game that did not exist before.

As you said yourself

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i would consider an isk faucet anything that introduces the chosen currency (isk) into the closed economy from thin air (outside the economy

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32 million that did not exist before the raven exploded was introduced into the economy by the npc insurance corporation - hence faucet.

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Originally by: Druadan

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Edited by: Druadan on 01/01/2008 23:55:49
If mining isn't a faucet, then where does the value of the ore come from? Does some rich mothersticker seed the asteroid fields with money out of his own wallet? No.

Asteroids are spawned (they 'grow' in size, and new ones appear) at each nth downtime. That's the mining equivalent of a set of NPCs spawning. Then the miner mines the ore, which is the equivalent of the NPCer killing the NPCs. The miner then takes the ore and turns it into liquid cash either directly, after a refine, or after a refine and a build (or chain of builds). The NPCing equivalent is the bounties and the sale/reprocess-and-sale of loot.

How is this not a faucet? You're reaping value spawned by the system, the same way that when you kill an NPC you're reaping value spawned by the system.

*edit* Actually, second thoughts here. When the belt spawns new ore, that inflates the ore, not ISK, as there's more ore to spread around per unit of ISK. When you get bounties from an NPC, that creates more ISK to spread around. So, in the hallowed words of Anonymous, disregard that...

-Dru

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