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Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.12 23:02:00 - [31] Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad It's not the ship. It's target painters as an EW system. Imagine if it remained in its current layout, but had the web range bonus of the EAS instead. It'd be amazing. There is nothing wrong with target painters. The only reason people think target painters suck is because they don't understand how sig radius works with regards to tracking. The only thing wrong with the Bellicose is that it doesn't have the powergrid to make use of its target painters for killing frigates. Autocannons are useless for the Bellicose's intended role, and you can't fit artillery and a proper pvp fitting with them because of sucky powergrid.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 01:14:00 - [32] Edited by: HankMurphy on 13/01/2008 01:14:03 belli is a low tier cruiser... i dont think its supposed to be very good... just good enough to use, then die in if your called as a target (come on, you'll get to do some flying, you KNOW you wont be primary ) in that regard, i dont think it needs slot adjustment or boosting at all. however, i do like the idea of making missiles primary weapon system. that would be fitting. ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 01:46:00 - [33] Originally by: HankMurphy Edited by: HankMurphy on 13/01/2008 01:14:03 belli is a low tier cruiser... i dont think its supposed to be very good... Celestis (well, the Celestis before Trinity that is) Blackbird Do you want to rethink that statement?
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 03:52:00 - [34] Edited by: HankMurphy on 13/01/2008 03:54:53 Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: HankMurphy Edited by: HankMurphy on 13/01/2008 01:14:03 belli is a low tier cruiser... i dont think its supposed to be very good... Celestis (well, the Celestis before Trinity that is) Blackbird Do you want to rethink that statement? no, not really. Comparing it the gal and caldari equivelents, it already has more high slots (+ TP = much more dps) than either of those ships (remember matar big on guns, not on ew) so i dont think lacking one more mid or low than the competition is a big deal, there is balance. Also, generally when using a celestis or BB, if its doing its job the enemy cant shoot you, this is not true for teh belli, so he gets a significantly increased base speed to allow for more evasiveness. The celestis and blackbird shine out to you because they use jamming and rsd. They also shine out to you because they are popular! But this isn't a popularity contest. Just because most ppl you know don't use a particular ship, doesn't mean that ship doesn't have a role to fill, and that with a little thought, could be an excellent support ship. The ships are very different and serve very different roles. Celestis and BB shut ppl down. However teh belli is not so much support to break down your enemies ability but to boost your gang mate's abilities. *THIS is a big reason why TP is not popular, but just because something isn't popular, doesn't mean its not effective. Its all about the application of the ship and the belli can do her job just fine as it is. If you need more out of her in any other regard, you either need a huginn/rapier, or you need a different tier cruiser. Though if ccp wants to boost it, i wont cry! I just pointing out it doesn't NEEEED it. ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 09:12:00 - [35] Originally by: HankMurphy The ships are very different and serve very different roles. No, they're not. All three of them are the EWar cruisers of their faction. The Blackbird and Celestis have the fitting specs to make effective use of their form of EWar and be effective in pvp combat. The Bellicose does not. They don't have the powergrid to fit artillery, and autocannons + target painters is not a very useful combination. They need at least (absolute minimum) the same powergrid as the Stabber, preferably a lot more, to fit properly for their intended role.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 10:38:00 - [36] something tells me you didn't read anything i said, just skimmed it for something you could take out of context. read the words that follow that quote, you will see they really are very different applications... as for combat effectiveness, you NEED the fitting for the best medium guns you can get? i think you forgeteth its role (support)... as for ac sucking, i did say it would be nice for a missile bonus not a gun. just because YOU cant see it as a viable ship, doesn't mean it isn't. but keep in mind, #1, its a low tier tech 1 cruiser ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
Toolivus Blue.	Posted - 2008.01.13 11:11:00 - [37] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: HankMurphy The ships are very different and serve very different roles. No, they're not. All three of them are the EWar cruisers of their faction. The Blackbird and Celestis have the fitting specs to make effective use of their form of EWar and be effective in pvp combat. The Bellicose does not. Actually they are very different and serve different roles. The difference in ships roles stems directly from the difference in the role of the ewar. Caldari ewar is pure defensive. It's all about stopping them from shooting you. Hence the ship gets a handy tank (ie, optimal range on ecm bonus, they can't shoot you if you're out of range) while it gets enough mids to use it's ewar effectively while only doing token damage. Target painters on the other hand are pure offensive. They make the target take more damage, faster by increasing the chance to hit, increasing the damage taken from missiles and reducing the time it takes for the bigger guns to get a lock and start shooting. Because of this, the ship is aligned more to offense but (since it is the ewar cruiser and is designed more with the gang in mind) not so far toward offense that it becomes the solo ships that the higher tier, combat cruisers. All of the ewar ships are geared more toward gang work than solo, so the fact that it could be lacking in dps is not really that much of an issue.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:29:00 - [38] "bellicose Being a highly versatile class of Minmatar ships, the Bellicose has been used as a combat juggernaut as well as a support ship for wings of frigates. While not quite in the league of newer navy cruisers, the Bellicose is still a very solid ship for most purposes, especially in terms of long range combat. Special Ability: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret Rate of Fire and 7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per skill level." You know what, given that the description said its a combat juggernaught and especially effective in long range combat... and don't give me that **** about "just change the description" as the designers wrote these descriptions to match how they want the ship to be capable of. So given this, I would suggest that the bellicose must at the very least be able to fit 4x 650mm II's, plus an armor tank and mwd. It needs grid and +1 turret slot. Another thing is that its targeting range is far too short and is less than the target painters optimal + falloff at max skills. So the targeting range nEeds an increase so as to truly be a "very solid ship ... especially in terms of long range combat. " Now perhaps to reduce its dps when given its +1 turret we should change its 5%/lvl bonus to Medium Projectile Turret Rate of Fire to a +10%/lvl bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:14:00 - [39] Originally by: HankMurphy something tells me you didn't read anything i said, just skimmed it for something you could take out of context. I read the whole thing. There's just no point to takr up space by quoting more than necessary. Quote: i think you forgeteth its role (support)... as for ac sucking, i did say it would be nice for a missile bonus not a gun. Yes, support. This support (like it's advanced cousins, but without the webbing help) is in killing off fast frigate-sized ships. To do this it needs artillery. Missiles are nearly as useless with a target painting bonus as autocannons. They do have the range over the autocannons, but against a target using an mwd, the target painters (because of the way sig radius works for missiles) do nothing to help the missiles. Only artillery (and other long-range turrets) really benefit from the target painting. Quote: just because YOU cant see it as a viable ship, doesn't mean it isn't. but keep in mind, #1, its a low tier tech 1 cruiser Tech 1 cruiser =/= worthless. It doesn't for most other tech 1 cruisers and it shouldn't for the Bellicose either. A Blackbird is a welcome fleet ship any day of the weak and so was the Celestis before it's EWar was run into the ground. the Bellicose IS a viable ship in principle, but it doesn't have the powergrid to fit the weapons it needs to function as it should. Why design a cruiser for a given role and then not give it the fitting specs it needs to perform that role?
AstroPhobic Minmatar Port Royal Independent Kontractors	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:29:00 - [40] Change the painter bonus to a 10% webifier range bonus. Not imblanced (Hyena can get 20km web with greater survivability), but not nerfed. New gang ship.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:38:00 - [41] Edited by: Hannobaal on 13/01/2008 17:37:58 Originally by: Toolivus Actually they are very different and serve different roles. The difference in ships roles stems directly from the difference in the role of the ewar. Sort of like the difference between say the Rook and the Huginn, right? Which still doesn't change the fact that they are both Combat Recons, right? Quote: Target painters on the other hand are pure offensive. They make the target take more damage, faster by increasing the chance to hit, increasing the damage taken from missiles and reducing the time it takes for the bigger guns to get a lock and start shooting. It's clear from the above that you don't know how sig radius works for tracking. The biggest benefit from target painting is not in helping missiles or making you lock faster. The biggest benefit is in helping long-range slow-tracking weapons (artillery) track fast targets. The one weapon system that could be mouunted on the Bellicose that really benefits from the target painting and could make the Bellicose dangerous for interceptors and the like (thus useful) is artillery. And the Bellicose doesn't have the power grid to fit them. Quote: All of the ewar ships are geared more toward gang work than solo, so the fact that it could be lacking in dps is not really that much of an issue. It's not about the Bellicose lacking dps. Autocannons are much easier to fit than artillery (and fit without a problem on the Bellicose), and they have higher dps than artillery. Making the Bellicose put out a relatively high dps is easy. The problem is in it lacking range on its turrets. The Celestis (for example) is like a weaker Lachesis and without the warp disruptor range bonus. The Bellicose needs to be exactly that: A weaker Huginn and without the web range bonus. Right now, the powergrid is so bad on the Bellicose than you need AWU skill trained to 3 just for 3 tech 1 650mm artillery and a tech 1 10mn mwd to fit (by themselves, with all other slots empty). 3 tech 2 650mm and a tech 2 10mn mwd simply don't fit at all, even with maxed out skills and nothing else fitted.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:52:00 - [42] Originally by: Nian Banks You know what, given that the description said its a combat juggernaught and especially effective in long range combat... and don't give me that **** about "just change the description" as the designers wrote these descriptions to match how they want the ship to be capable of. So given this, I would suggest that the bellicose must at the very least be able to fit 4x 650mm II's, plus an armor tank and mwd. It needs grid and +1 turret slot. I wouldn't even go that far. Not having the powergrid for an armor tank is fine, cause people would probably speed fit in the lows anyway. Just make it so you can fit 3 650mm artillery, an mwd, and a normal fit in the remaining high and mid slots (at least enough for assault launchers, preferable heavies, in the launcher slots). Enough grid for a shield extender as well (for buffer) would be nice, but it's not a huge deal without it. Dropping a launcher slot for a fourth turret slot (and with the power grid to fit it) would be great as well.
Malcanis 5 finger discounteers	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:55:00 - [43] Originally by: TheMightyBoosh17 Alright, so this ship doesn't get any respect. For starters it looks terrible and for a ship that has a bonus to target painters it seems to want you to use autocannons on it(ROF bonus) as you can't fit even 3 650's without having a rubbish tank. This ship is meant to be the E-war cruiser of the Minmatar so then why does it have only 4 mids and 5 highs, surely it should be the other way around. I think to fix this ship several things could be done. Firstly the dual weapon layout should be scrapped for 4 turrets or launchers (launchers IMO as this would fit in with the target painting bonus)With the relevant ROF bonus. Secondly I think the remaining hi slot should be moved to a med slot to be more E-warry? Thirdly the drone bay should be increased to at least 50m3 so it can at least have a full set of mediums. Overall the ship would look something like this Slots Hi - 4 Med - 5 Low - 3 Drone bay 50m3/75m3 Bonuses 5% missile launcher ROF & 7.5% TP effectiveness per level. Also a little bit more cpu. I think if the ship was like this then Minnie pilots would have a reason to train for missiles and drones before reaching the Typhoon. Plus it is also very different from the stabber and Rupture. Thanks for reading and please comment on whether you like it or not, it can't be any worse than what the ship is now can it? Aren't E-war ships supposed to have terrible tanks? The Blackbird certainly does. Your EW is your tank. As for your DPS. Well, again: compare to the BB. 4 medium T2 dones? God PLEASE give me such a "terrible" drone bay. Even 20m^3 would be fantastic. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Pliskkenn Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.01.13 18:56:00 - [44] Tracking Disruption - Amarr Basically makes the mtrack worse. Ok I can see how that'd work as a tank. Damps - Gallente Reduces lock range or time. I can also see how that could be a potential tank. ECM - Caldari If they cant lock you they cant hurt you. Makes sense. Target Painters - Minmatar. Increases the targets sig radius. I cant see how I can use that as my tank. ---
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2008.01.13 19:26:00 - [45] Originally by: Pliskkenn Tracking Disruption - Amarr Basically makes the mtrack worse. Ok I can see how that'd work as a tank. Damps - Gallente Reduces lock range or time. I can also see how that could be a potential tank. ECM - Caldari If they cant lock you they cant hurt you. Makes sense. Target Painters - Minmatar. Increases the targets sig radius. I cant see how I can use that as my tank. Well said, I was trying to think of a polite way of saying how only a complete moron would think that a target painter was an effective tanking module. Nope sorry, following the minmatar philosophy od dealing brutal barbaric pain, TP's improve DPS. Thereby killing thing faster, NOT reducing the victims DPS as to slow their potential to kill you. Big difference, minmatar are lucky, Remember they get the only sweet ass offensive E-War module.
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:27:00 - [46] Actually the main EWar-System for MinMatar should be Webs. So just ditch the Target Painter thingy and give the Bellicose a Bonus to Webs instead. You'll see many Bellicoses in PvP afterwards, like Celestis, Blackbird and Arbitrator. Problem solved. . Work in progress: EvE FlashMAP
Zorez	Posted - 2008.01.14 02:53:00 - [47] Well Ive had Great Success with this Belli, Pops Frigs, Assault Frigs and the odd Interceptor, And Great against Slower Cruisers and Battlecruisers. Arties track and hit large targets at 16km at 2k m/s no probs. 3 x 280mm TII (fusion/Depleted Uranium) (option x2) 2 x HAM XT-2800 (option x3 Missiles of your Choice) 1 x 10mn MWD TII or Best named 1 x 20km Fleeting Warp Scrambler 1 x X5 Webber (optional Tp/Lse/Med cap Bat/Tracking Dis) 1 x F-S9 LSE 1 x Nano TII 2 x Mk1 Generator CPR (options Ods/Gyros/Dcu) Drones to Suit I use 3 x Ec-300 5x Warrior II Give It a Go.
Murath Kalth Minmatar Ripping Yarns Inc	Posted - 2008.01.14 02:57:00 - [48] GRRR That was me Above Sometimes Pleasure is a sin But to Sin is Always a Pleasure
Megan Maynard Minmatar Clearspace Operations Carpe Diem.	Posted - 2008.01.14 03:36:00 - [49] You do realize this ship does a TON of DPS right? T2 medium auto's, t2 heavy missiles, t2 drones. It's a mini-typhoon that you can speed tank. And the target painter is great for hitting more often with your guns. You want to shield tank a ship that should be a support ship. Not every ship in the game is a solo ship.............
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.14 06:32:00 - [50] The problem is not its dps. Its dps is fine. The problem is the range. The high dps minmatar guns (autocannons) it has no problem fitting. But autocannons are useless for a target painting ship. The Bellicose needs artillery to work. And it can't fit them.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.14 06:37:00 - [51] Originally by: Grytok Actually the main EWar-System for MinMatar should be Webs. So just ditch the Target Painter thingy and give the Bellicose a Bonus to Webs instead. You'll see many Bellicoses in PvP afterwards, like Celestis, Blackbird and Arbitrator. Problem solved. No. Target painters are almost more useful than webs. The people who think otherwise don't know how sig radius effects tracking. It doesn't need to change bonus to be effective. It just needs the powergrid to fit weapons that can benefit from the target painting (medium artillery) to hit fast ships.
Wardeneo Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.14 11:07:00 - [52] Edited by: Wardeneo on 14/01/2008 11:07:46 Edited by: Wardeneo on 14/01/2008 11:07:32 Originally by: TheMightyBoosh17 Alright, so this ship doesn't get any respect. For starters it looks terrible and for a ship that has a bonus to target painters it seems to want you to use autocannons on it(ROF bonus) as you can't fit even 3 650's without having a rubbish tank. This ship is meant to be the E-war cruiser of the Minmatar so then why does it have only 4 mids and 5 highs, surely it should be the other way around. I think to fix this ship several things could be done. Firstly the dual weapon layout should be scrapped for 4 turrets or launchers (launchers IMO as this would fit in with the target painting bonus)With the relevant ROF bonus. Secondly I think the remaining hi slot should be moved to a med slot to be more E-warry? Thirdly the drone bay should be increased to at least 50m3 so it can at least have a full set of mediums. Overall the ship would look something like this Slots Hi - 4 Med - 5 Low - 3 Drone bay 50m3/75m3 Bonuses 5% missile launcher ROF & 7.5% TP effectiveness per level. Also a little bit more cpu. I think if the ship was like this then Minnie pilots would have a reason to train for missiles and drones before reaching the Typhoon. Plus it is also very different from the stabber and Rupture. Thanks for reading and please comment on whether you like it or not, it can't be any worse than what the ship is now can it? dont worry bout tank if u want tank get a ruppi, just nano the belicose, stick a cap inj on it and use whatever guns (long range arties) u can, its a ewar cruise and all of em bar an arbitrator - coz thast ok - are crap and tanking and average and damge, but i use this ship as an anti frig ship (killed an ares 2-3 days ago :) , nano it, stick target painters, 1 mwd (obviously) and 1 x web, assualt launchers and arties, ull kill frigs b4 u cap out :) wardeneo Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! (Or make Amarr the only race able to deal EM damage from turrets).
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2008.01.14 11:20:00 - [53] ok, one more time for those in the cheap seats. get your glove on and try to catch it this time... it a cheap as hell cruiser (couple/few mil). mid-low end of the minnie cruisers (2nd to crappiest available). now, you really think this low end support cruisers is supposed to fit ewar support, have speed AND be able to fit the best weapon loadout available to its hardpoints??? (it already has more hardpoints and highs than its other racial equivelents). Sure, every ship should be an awsome solo boat, and definitely at a price cheaper than a stabber its not supposed to be solo, that means maybe you just aren't supposed to fit what YOU want to fit on it. Learn to pilot. Learn to take advantage for what a ship has to offer instead of looking for what you think it should have. look, i'd love to see them senselessly boost any ship that isn't leet. really i would! [IMAGE REMOVED] celestis and bb were so very very awsome for a long time... think that had anything to do w/ the fact both rsd and jamming got nerfed in its time? tp is invaluable in a gang, THATS the point of the ship, not to be able to snipe ontop of its intended role. "yeah yeah, but the ship description says..." yup, that little storyline description is supposed to be a technical spec sheet, O.K. [IMAGE REMOVED] IT'S THE FRICKIN BELLICOSE, IT'S SUPPOSED TO KINDA SUCK! ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
Kayna Eelai Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.01.14 11:24:00 - [54] Originally by: HankMurphy IT'S THE FRICKIN BELLICOSE, IT'S SUPPOSED TO KINDA SUCK! it's funny how people always post to buff ships that are perfectly fine, and than others saying they straight away SUCK. the bellicose is not ment to be a solo-pwnmobile. it's a ewar support ship for gangs/fleets. and it's speciality is target painting. period. no1 said it has to use missile launchers itself or it should be able to have 16 med slots or it should solo be able to kill carriers. IT'S A GANG SUPPORT TARGET PAINTER. get over it already. [IMAGE REMOVED] fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.01.14 12:49:00 - [55] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Grytok Actually the main EWar-System for MinMatar should be Webs. So just ditch the Target Painter thingy and give the Bellicose a Bonus to Webs instead. You'll see many Bellicoses in PvP afterwards, like Celestis, Blackbird and Arbitrator. Problem solved. No. Target painters are almost more useful than webs. The people who think otherwise don't know how sig radius effects tracking. It doesn't need to change bonus to be effective. It just needs the powergrid to fit weapons that can benefit from the target painting (medium artillery) to hit fast ships. Erm... Web them fast ships and your Medium Artilleries wont have problems hitting them pesky frigates either. And Fittingproblems, eh? High: 3x Named 650mm Arties, 2x Named Assault Launcher Missile Meds: 10MN MWD II, Warp Disruptor II, 2x Named Target Painter Lows: RCU II, Overdrive II, Nanofiber II Drones: Warrior II Rigs: none I don't have problems fitting this ship actually Forget about a tank on a T1-Cruiser you fools, then it's no problem to fit the Bellicose. These ships (Celestis, Blackbird, Bellicose) are not ment to fight solo, this is reserved for the Arbitrator in this class. They also are not ment to tank, so therefor you just don't do it. Only Blackbird can be fitted with an LSE II as tank, as the Heavy Launchers do not need so much Grid and you've plenty of Meds. Slap some EWar and some guns on those ships, speed them up and you're ready to go... . Work in progress: EvE FlashMAP
Kayna Eelai Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.01.14 13:26:00 - [56] Originally by: Grytok Erm... Web them fast ships and your Medium Artilleries wont have problems hitting them pesky frigates either. TBH if i planned to go into webbing range, i'd probably fit autocannons fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.01.14 14:01:00 - [57] Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: Grytok Erm... Web them fast ships and your Medium Artilleries wont have problems hitting them pesky frigates either. TBH if i planned to go into webbing range, i'd probably fit autocannons Thats why I suggested to switch the bonus from Target Painting to Stasis Webifier Range . Work in progress: EvE FlashMAP
Kayna Eelai Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.01.14 14:13:00 - [58] Originally by: Grytok Thats why I suggested to switch the bonus from Target Painting to Stasis Webifier Range and why don't u just play the ship like it's suposed to be? as gang support with target painters and artillery fitted? fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.14 14:58:00 - [59] Originally by: Grytok Erm... Web them fast ships and your Medium Artilleries wont have problems hitting them pesky frigates either. Nor do they have a problem hitting with some target painters, so why ask for a change to what allready works? Quote: And Fittingproblems, eh? High: 3x Named 650mm Arties, 2x Named Assault Launcher Missile Meds: 10MN MWD II, Warp Disruptor II, 2x Named Target Painter Lows: RCU II, Overdrive II, Nanofiber II Drones: Warrior II Rigs: none I don't have problems fitting this ship actually So, let me get this straight. I need at least AWU trained to 3, a low slot tech 2 fitting mod, no tank (not that I would put one on Bellicose, but still), only assault launchers, and I still can't use tech 2 guns on it? I call that fitting problems. If you can fit tech 1 artillery, tech 1 heavy launchers and a tech 1 mwd without fitting mods or AWU skill, then I'd say it's enough powergrid. Quote: Forget about a tank on a T1-Cruiser you fools, then it's no problem to fit the Bellicose. It doesn't need to fit a tank, except for speed. That's not the issue. Quote: These ships (Celestis, Blackbird, Bellicose) are not ment to fight solo, this is reserved for the Arbitrator in this class. They also are not ment to tank, so therefor you just don't do it. The Celestis does very well solo, actually.
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:07:00 - [60] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Grytok Erm... Web them fast ships and your Medium Artilleries wont have problems hitting them pesky frigates either. Nor do they have a problem hitting with some target painters, so why ask for a change to what allready works? Quote: And Fittingproblems, eh? High: 3x Named 650mm Arties, 2x Named Assault Launcher Missile Meds: 10MN MWD II, Warp Disruptor II, 2x Named Target Painter Lows: RCU II, Overdrive II, Nanofiber II Drones: Warrior II Rigs: none I don't have problems fitting this ship actually So, let me get this straight. I need at least AWU trained to 3, a low slot tech 2 fitting mod, no tank (not that I would put one on Bellicose, but still), only assault launchers, and I still can't use tech 2 guns on it? I call that fitting problems. If you can fit tech 1 artillery, tech 1 heavy launchers and a tech 1 mwd without fitting mods or AWU skill, then I'd say it's enough powergrid. ... Try fitting 3x T2-Rails on Celestis, or T2-Guns on any other T1-Cruiser without getting into trouble with fitting it. If you wanna fit your ship best as it gets, then you've to max out your skills first and then also you would need Fittingmods for biggest guns, etc... Ever tried fitting a Deimos with T2-Neutrons, not using a fitting mod? Or what about the Rapier? yyou can't fit 720mm T2 there either without fitting mods. Tempest without tank just 1400mm Artillery T2 -> same again RCU II needed for good fitting. This goes on and on, and you want to have the ability to fit a bloody T1 Cruiser without fitting mods or skills? And as far as the Target Painter Bonus goes... there would nobody cry, if this would get switched for a web Bonus tbfh. Alot of people do know that Target Painter helps to hit smaller ships, but web range would definately help on more ocassions. Last but not least... you say yourself that you wanna act as a Anti-Frigate-Platform, so sure you fit Assault Launchers instead of Heavy Launchers, as they hit much better in that case. . Work in progress: EvE FlashMAP

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