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Is CONCORD even a deterrent?

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Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ama-gi	Posted - 2008.01.10 11:26:00 - [91] What happens here is simple. people who are trying to play eve solo are getting pwnt. The hi sec gankers are forced to work together in at least small groups. their targets are often not only people who are flying solo, but also flying afk... now who will ccp be more likely to support? the group of people interacting socially while sitting and playing eve or the single guy who's off watching a skin flik while his autopilot trucks his arse across new eden? Who adds more to the flavor of the world we call eve? the group of hi sec suicide gankers that are totally willing to accept their deaths by concord, or the solo afk isk grinder? while it would suck to lose a billion or three while in hi sec, think of what this will do to the game... sure risk goes up but then all of a sudden less ppl are willing to haul stuff in freighters... it still needs to move, so now you can charge more. risk vs reward will come into play. if you die before you can make a profit then you've had some bad luck or you've undercharged. perhaps you need a counter-suicide gank squad to guard you, or maybe even some logistic ship escorts :) my point is that the pvpers have been left to figure out how to find ways to pvp on their own. I know some ppl don't want to pvp, but they're playing the wrong game if they think they are ever going to be completely safe from it. Stop the denial and accept that you are always vulnerable to attack. Once you've done that then take a lesson from the pvp crowd and use your noggins to figure out a counter to it instead of crying to ccp to swing the nerf bat. Just because you don't like to pvp doesn't make you any less clever... or does it? -- No love for the Matari
Calel Caldari MisFunk Inc. Frontline.	Posted - 2008.01.10 11:33:00 - [92] Dude get a tanked blockade runner pimped up. I know autopilot is a must for haulers (contrary to what non-hauler pilots say), so autopilot as far as you can in quiet systems and manually jump the systems that are popular camping spots when you're hauling expensive gear. I was ganked last week but activated my tank then sat backed and watched the pretty explosions. I agree though, the risk to these so called 'prates' is extremely low compared to the losses taken by haulers. MisFunk Head Toilet Cleaner
Zara Xizor The Xizor Cartel	Posted - 2008.01.10 11:36:00 - [93] Originally by: Ris Dnalor Much BS Man, I'm so sick of hearing this BS. Eve isnt a group game, it's a multiplayer game that allows for groups. No multiplayer game is designed to force grouping. MMO's are for everyone, solo or group. Nuff Said. The Xizor Cartel - Recruiting Hard Ass PVP'ers
Herself Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.10 12:43:00 - [94] Edited by: Herself on 10/01/2008 12:46:14 Edited by: Herself on 10/01/2008 12:45:31 Three changes All mentioned by various peeps earlier.... but taken together the "package" might improve things? 1) Get Concorded, you don't get insurance. 2) Getting scanned raises the red flag and 3) While scanning doesn't get a Concord response EVERYTHING else does AND you have some chance of escape. Let me explain me thoughts on 3)... So you want to can flip?... 1st time Concord sends a frigate or similar, might even take a minute to find you. If you're engaged with the can "owner" then the DPS you're taking increases... you may still be able to handle it and then escape (once you're away that's it, unless you go to a gate or station where other ships/guns are but u ain't activly pursued). Do it again (timing needs thought out) then it's a couple of ships and they find you real quick... and so on and so on up to the current concord instapop if you shoot on someone... timings and ship sizes could be tailored downwards depending on the system sec status. it's a thought... edit for spelling.. twice! jeez
Herself Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.10 13:26:00 - [95] and just had another thought 4)... baddies gets flagged to all who have a high sec status with Concord etc (for 15 mins) and a 24 hour flag to the victim (and their corp if they're in a non NPC one).... would imagine flag would be a bit like the War Target one ... .......the 's are looking for PvP after all! and it might even create a new high sec career path for some ...
Chi'an Peimei Caldari Draconian Toymaker Corp	Posted - 2008.01.10 13:46:00 - [96] How about this? (I know this changes next to nothing mechanically, but it would make things more interesting.) Give faction standings a meaning. If you suicide gank, it affects your standings with whatever corp you just ganked... for example, we have indy pilots Dan and Jane. Dan is a member of a Player corp who is running his freighter to Jita... and gets ganked by.. oh I don't know, John. Now Dan (and his corp) have good standings with Mordus Legion. So John ganks him, and poof his Mordu Legion (and all the factions and corps that like Mordu) go down.... BUT, his Guristas, Serpintis, Et Al. go up, same as if he did a mission against the Mordu Legion. Also, Dan, his CEO, and the Alliance Executor (if any) get an EveMail that Dan has lost his freighter, including all the cargo that was stolen destroyed, etc. And, it adds a -0.1 temporary standing to John's corp from Dan's corp and alliance, lasts for 24hrs, or until confirmed as permanent by the CEO/Executor. Now, we have Jane, also being ganked by John (he is a naughty boy.) Jane is a member of Perkone. John ruthlessly blows her up, and alt loots the Indy. When he shoots Jane, he gets an immediate -0.1 Perkone and all corps that it likes... including Caldari Navy. Thats just an idea to spice thing up a bit... be kinda interesting.... Love to see the RPers get the chance to "Disrupt Enemy Supply Lines" and people earn standings with the pirate corps without going and mission grinding them up (kinda pain in the *** sometimes.) Plus, there is a minor risk of the ganker losing standing with a corp he is working for, thus losing access to an agent.... oh, and makes it next to impossible to predict what standings your going to lose unless one of 2 things... 1) You are on autopilot in a gank area (and we all know there are regions that are riskier than others.) 2) They have specific info on the target before he warps into gank range. Just my 2,000,000 ISK (inflation, ya know.) Tobias Creed did tell you all that I am more offensive than he is... Now go do the dishes like your mom is screaming so you can come back to your basement and play more EVE online
Platime Clan LoKi	Posted - 2008.01.10 22:57:00 - [97] Interesting, probably should be in the Features and Ideas area now
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2008.01.10 23:03:00 - [98] Originally by: Herself and just had another thought 4)... baddies gets flagged to all who have a high sec status with Concord etc (for 15 mins) and a 24 hour flag to the victim (and their corp if they're in a non NPC one).... would imagine flag would be a bit like the War Target one ... .......the 's are looking for PvP after all! and it might even create a new high sec career path for some ... That would be nice. Something to do when I sit bored in high sec
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.01.11 04:31:00 - [99] Originally by: Chi'an Peimei totally cool idea Hello faction warfare \o/ I really like this. Would help people who live in 0.0 get easier access to the pirate factions (blow up amarr navy players and sanshas like you more for instance) __________________________________
GrandMarshall Stalin	Posted - 2008.01.11 04:41:00 - [100] Just get a hauler with strong defenses and put a couple warp core stabilizers on it. You will more than likely escape any solo ganker if that happens.
Siriyana Astrum Contract Services Group	Posted - 2008.01.11 05:01:00 - [101] Originally by: Qui Shon That's not a risk. Since there is no base "free" income in Eve (nor anywhere else afaik), no automatic positive isk flow to compare to. For there to be risk, there has to be potential loss. The hauler/trader risks his ship, his assets, i.e. his effective capital. His profit is already at risk from other traders, without any suicide gankers. The ganker on the other hand does not risk his assets, he doesn't risk anything at all, since even if he should fail in his gank, he will still have his insurance money and the loot from his own wreck. Normally T1 loot would be so low in value it's not worth mentioning, but so pathethic are the potential losses of the suicide ganker in case of failure, that they should be included. Though I'd not be for such a change, if you want any sort of balance in hauler/ganker profit/risk, you need to introduce 90-100+% effective cargo insurance, valid even in case of deliberate selfdestruction, to match the ship insurance we have now. I think you need to do the math again. If the platinum insurance cost is approx 30% of the value of the ship, and pays slightly more than the ship is worth, then you're still netting a loss of 30% every time you suicide gank. And this doesn't even mean you're going to recover anything from it. Maybe all of the loot you were trying to suicide gank was destroyed, or maybe what survived was hardly worth anything. Over time, you'll be screwed as your sec status continues to go down, forcing you to do something to make up for it (or move to lower security status systems to continue suicide ganking), and if you -don't- recover anything, then over time you lose money, never gain. There is always a potential risk- that you could be losing millions upon millions for absolutely nothing. But the payout is higher. If you want your cargo to be "insured", then use a courier contract. Force the courier to put up as much collateral as the cargo is worth, and pay a small percentage to have it delivered. Cargo doesn't make it? You get all your money back. There's your 100% insurance right there. Comes out of the pocket of another player, but that's their fault for not guarding their cargo well enough. ----- CEO, Astrum Contract Services Group
Gillian Delilah	Posted - 2008.01.11 11:45:00 - [102] Edited by: Gillian Delilah on 11/01/2008 11:49:44 I find the Sigil to be an excellent T1 hauler. Five low slots, great speed (for a freighter), tolerable cargo space. At the very least, you can fill the low slots with inertia stabilisers and align for warp very speedily. (edit) And to reply to the original post a bit better: yes, CONCORD are a deterrent. They'd be more interesting and a lot more plausible (in my opinion) if they were a bit more proactive with their policing style, but they are a good deterrent.
Voodoo Mistross Minmatar Cold-Fury Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.11 11:59:00 - [103] Originally by: shismo Well, this is not part of the OPs main point, but he brought it up so ill comment. What they should do is give anyone who has not gotten concord angry at them in the past week a reputation boost. Every week. Not a large one but to where someone who doesn't rat or mission run can slowly go up over time for being a good citizen. I agree with this point, i for one am NOT a mission runner or to much of a ratter, but then with my security status even the "reputation boost" wouldnt be much help Originally by: Katherine Marx you make a great point. people who play WOW should stay there.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ama-gi	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:02:00 - [104] Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 11/01/2008 12:02:55 Originally by: Zara Xizor Originally by: Ris Dnalor Much BS I like misquoting ppl and not fully reading their posts! Nuff Said. strike a nerve? anyway the point was really about AFK, not solo. I play eve solo a lot too. ccp isn't going to protect AFK players over players who aren't afk. That's just how has been from what I've seen. This is how ccp has behaved over the course of the last 4+ years. They could suddenly wake up tomorrow and change their way of doing things. I won't be holding my breath. However there are ways to adapt. These ways generally involve help from other people. Sure you're allowed to to play solo. However, if 20 ppl decide they want you dead, you SHOULD be at a disadvantage in that fight. If you got yourself some help then the odds would be better. But as you say that's your choice. But to cry that you can't fend off 20 ppl by yourself and to think that is somehow unfair is ludicrous. Hi sec is not nor was it ever intended to be a safe zone. Concord provides consequences to their actions. The problem you're having (correct me if i'm wrong) is that 20 ppl can sacrifice 30m isk (600m) each and destroy / steal billions of isk worth of stuff. I wonder what success ratio they have? I wonder how much time they have to spend finding a target worthwhile. if you failed ona couple hits that's a pretty big chunk of change. I think the risk vs. reward factor is definately in play here. What happens is that b/c they absorb that 600m isk loss and spread it out over a group of people the individual loss is not much. This advantage is directly due to the fact that a collective group IS more powerful than any individual. This is not something that should be altered lightly. Now as far as the insurance goes I personally wish there was no insurance in the game at all. for anyone. ever. I'm sure noone agrees with me and that it will never happen... and I'm o.k. with that :) Except maybe on tech one frigates. and maybe tech one industrials. New players arguably need that help. mainly because of the steep learning curve the game has they don't need any extra grief. ( of course new players can start with racial frigate skill level 5 now if they want for chrissakes! and they have tip of the day :( ) ...But to say that concord-kills in high sec do not give insurance payouts would certainly change things. it would mean that in hi-sec, at least, 20 people, or 100 people, or 500 people working together could not overpower a single afk solo-player.... and I believe that would be a horrible thing. -- No love for the Matari
Layla Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:02:00 - [105] A simple deterrent, that would fit well within the game mechanics and environment, would be for there to be no insurance pay-out on ships that are destroyed by Concord or other law-enforcement agencies within high-sec space. Of course this is only a DETERRENT, not a complete solution, but it raises the stakes for the suicide gankers and would probably help the newer, more vulnerable players hauling less valuable cargoes.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:18:00 - [106] Originally by: Layla A simple deterrent, that would fit well within the game mechanics and environment, would be for there to be no insurance pay-out on ships that are destroyed by Concord or other law-enforcement agencies within high-sec space. Of course this is only a DETERRENT, not a complete solution, but it raises the stakes for the suicide gankers and would probably help the newer, more vulnerable players hauling less valuable cargoes. No it won't. If you're a newer player hauling less valuable cargoes, you're not a target now anyway, for the exact reason that you are hauling less valuable cargoes. The problems start when that newer player grows out of being new, starts to accumulate isk, and fails to upgrade his hauler in line with the value of cargoes he's carrying. By the time you can afford to buy cargo worth ganking you for, you should have been in the game long enought to have figured out that hauling cargo worth 100x the value of your ship is a risky business. And if you haven't figured it out by then, tough. Eve has always been harsh on the stupid or careless, and it should continue to be so. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:45:00 - [107] Edited by: Qui Shon on 11/01/2008 12:47:50 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ulstan That's not a risk, anymore than a mission runner getting really bored while mission running is a 'risk'. It is a risk, anything that changes your isk/hour is a risk. Otherwise nothing in highsec would have risk, it'd be all reward. No, it isn't. You should get a dictionary. Chatting while docked instead of missioning certainly affects my isk/hour, but I doubt even you would call that a risk. Or if you do, then the suggestion to get a dictionary should be taken literally.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:08:00 - [108] Edited by: Qui Shon on 11/01/2008 13:16:35 Originally by: Matthew As long as you ensure that the value of your cargo is less than the value gankers would lose by ganking you, your risk of getting suicide ganked is very, very small. It is entirely possible to have a good career as a hauler without ever attracting the attention of the suicide gankers. Currently, that value is so ridiculously low, you'd be hard pressed to fill a T1 hauler so that it's value is less then the cost for the ganker. And this is what insurance removal would fix. However, that's not the value you're looking for. The real cargo value to think about is the desired value and drop probability the ganker(s) has(have) in mind. But even that isn't enough, because desirability and apparent value of cargo come into play as well. But even that's not enough, people have even lost empty haulers, probably just for the lulz of the ganker. While this could always happen, at least it wouldn't be so ridiculously cheap. How often that happens I do not know, and neither do you. So the risk for that is hard to judge, though I'd assume it's pretty low. Somebody said I should do my calcs again concerning costs of suicide ganks. What I've calculated on is the actual cost for me to produce/aquire the neccesary ships and modules, not the speculative opportunity cost if I were to sell the ship (can't really sell T1 BS modules) on the market. Last time I checked, some time ago now, the actual cost for me, including the paltry insurance cost as well as the payout, really was 0-5mil, per T1 gank fit BS. But I'll do them again soon, to verify it hasn't changed.
EvilSpork Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2008.01.13 13:41:00 - [109] Edited by: EvilSpork on 13/01/2008 13:44:19 heres how to make money off suicide gankers: 1.fly a ship that they think they can kill. 2. give it a huge buffer tank 3. use autopilot 4. add fun lootz 5. wait for them to attack you and get concorded 6. loot and salvage their wreck 7. ... 8. profit really. ive been attacked in a regular old t1 hauler with a mild tank and gotten to loot and salvage the idiot who attacked me.. i ended up making like 15million isk per run to jita due to looting idiots who attack me! and if you dont want to deal with this kind of stuff, fit a MWD, and sit around while you autopilot, or do it the smart way and just manually warp to 0 to every gate! high sec ganking IS part of the game. they have found a way to adapt to how concord responds and can live on how they do it. if you dont like it, youre playing the wrong game. eve is great because we can do whatever we want, whenever we want to whoever for any reason or no reason. highsec would be BORING if there was 100% zero risk. i enjoy the fact that i have to watch out if im hauling loot. no risk = lame.
abbagabba Gallente Monster Raving Loonies	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:12:00 - [110] Everyone is obsessing about the cost of the ships whereas for a regular ganker the real cost is his security status. If someone is recycling characters to avoid these security hits then it is an exploit, although I admit this does not seem to be policed effectively. If a change was required to discourage ganking then increases in security penalties would seem a better option than removing insurance which will mainly just change the setups gankers use. Plenty of people already use stealth bombers and many use selected tech II modules. So I would say a more realistic gank formula is: If HALF of the cargo is > cost of ships + value of everyones security status + acceptable profit then you have a target.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.13 16:10:00 - [111] If concord is so ineffective, you should move down to low sec where they aren't an issue! I mean obviously you will be just as safe there Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.13 16:33:00 - [112] Originally by: Gamon Rowe I lost yet another ship in a 0.9 system. Bottom line: What did the ship contain? No one ganks a ship in hisec. They pirate cargo. What cargo did you inadequately protect? -- Guile can always trump hardware --

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