Originally by: Frug

---

Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.

---

Originally by: Richard Phallus

---

CONCORD is not a deterrent, it is only a consequence. You need to provide your own deterrent.

---

Originally by: Richard Phallus

---

CONCORD is not a deterrent, it is only a consequence. You need to provide your own deterrent.

---

Originally by: Kyra Felann

---

Consequences can provide deterrents if the consequence is severe enough.

---

Originally by: Gamon Rowe

---

I was destroyed, mugged, and the assailant safely left the system with my cargo before I could dock, get a noob frigate, and return, all under the noses of 49 CONCORD ships all hanging out at the gate, not counting the 8 sentry guns. Not only did they not protect my wreck from the looter, but I didn't even get a CONCORD report on the destruction of my ship.

---

Originally by: Richard Phallus

---

CONCORD is not a deterrent, it is only a consequence. You need to provide your own deterrent.

---

Originally by: Gamon Rowe

---

Well, I suppose that is the problem then. I'm not a fighter in the slightest. I cannot physically provide any form of deterrent. All I can do is keep purchasing new ships. But at the rate I've been hemorrhaging isk in highsec, I really don't have the option of even being able to recover at this point.

---

Originally by: Richard Phallus

---

Then you need friends that can provide the deterrent.

---

Originally by: Gamon Rowe

---

Originally by: Richard Phallus

---

Then you need friends that can provide the deterrent.

---

I knew that was going to pop up rather quickly. I'd rather not have to pull every favor I can muster to make the dangerous trip across Perimeter to Jita, or through another like area. Again, no point in attempting to put together an argument to common sense. As much as I fly though, heh, I'd need a significant bank account to be able to comp escorts. Seeing as I'm short on that, I suppose I'll just learn to enjoy missions and leave that whole economics thing to corps that can afford escorts.

---

Originally by: Frug

---

Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.

---

Quote:

---

Hell, stay out of Caldari space altogether.

---

Originally by: Gamon Rowe

---

Originally by: Richard Phallus

---

Then you need friends that can provide the deterrent.

---

I knew that was going to pop up rather quickly. I'd rather not have to pull every favor I can muster to make the dangerous trip across Perimeter to Jita, or through another like area. Again, no point in attempting to put together an argument to common sense. As much as I fly though, heh, I'd need a significant bank account to be able to comp escorts. Seeing as I'm short on that, I suppose I'll just learn to enjoy missions and leave that whole economics thing to corps that can afford escorts.

---

Originally by: Amarria Black

---

If you need a reminder of the deterrent effect of CONCORD, just remember the number of ships you pass in highsec that don't frag you on sight.

---

Originally by: shismo

---

Well, this is not part of the OPs main point, but he brought it up so ill comment.

What they should do is give anyone who has not gotten concord angry at them in the past week a reputation boost. Every week. Not a large one but to where someone who doesn't rat or mission run can slowly go up over time for being a good citizen.

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

Of course CONCORD is effective. If it wasn't, people like myself would be killing anyone I could get locked down in high sec. But I can't, because CONCORD would explode my beautiful ship.

So I have to be a bit more picky, and only kill the really rich/stupid ones.

---

Originally by: Gamon Rowe

---

I lost yet another ship in a 0.9 system. I'm not complaining about losing a ship. I've got a good handle on losing ships. What gets me is that this is one of a number of ships that I've had destroyed in a 0.9 system. Not only that, but when my ship was flying through, there were forty-nine (49 x) CONCORD Police Commander/Officer/Captain ships at the gate.

I was destroyed, mugged, and the assailant safely left the system with my cargo before I could dock, get a noob frigate, and return, all under the noses of 49 CONCORD ships all hanging out at the gate, not counting the 8 sentry guns. Not only did they not protect my wreck from the looter, but I didn't even get a CONCORD report on the destruction of my ship.

Is CONCORD purposely aiding pirates these days?

I don't have any means of recouping my losses with my characters, but more than that, I don't rat or run missions, so my reputation with CONCORD is permanently affixed at 0.0, despite following their law and the laws of the systems I enter. On the other hand pirates who destroy my ships routinely have moderately high CONCORD ratings as they rat and run missions heavily. That's like someone with a Police Activities League bumper sticker running down a businessman on the sidewalk, mugging them, and then driving off, still retaining a nice reputation with the police in the process.

I'm not griping about the money I've lost, but what's the point in even having an area declared highsec if there is no sec associated with it. I understand risks, but come on. If you're going to have a police force sitting en masse at a gate, at least provide some deterrence against capital crimes.

---

Originally by: Gamon Rowe

---

Edited by: Gamon Rowe on 08/01/2008 06:13:09

Originally by: Richard Phallus

---

CONCORD is not a deterrent, it is only a consequence. You need to provide your own deterrent.

---

Well, I suppose that is the problem then. I'm not a fighter in the slightest. I cannot physically provide any form of deterrent. All I can do is keep purchasing new ships. But at the rate I've been hemorrhaging isk in highsec, I really don't have the option of even being able to recover at this point.

At any rate, as long as there is no shortage of those with skills and teammates sufficient to pull this off, then as far as it concerns the small-business merchant, there is no consequence from CONCORD either. At which point I suppose there really isn't much incentive to continue on any course other than combat.

And no, they were careful not to pod me. But seeing as my clone with implants wasn't worth 1/10 of what I had in my ship, it really doesn't phase me either way. If I had a way of insuring cargo, then it would be a different story as well. Seeing as that's not possible, well, I suppose it doesn't matter.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

OP's story sounds like bull****.

1. Concord will always kill the aggressor, if it didnt its an bannable exploit.

2. Concord on gate will respond within 2 seconds(I counted) of aggression. They will instantly jam the aggressor(and all his drones), and neut all his cap in 0.1 seconds. Followed by ship destruction 1 second later. Therefore you must've gotten one volleyed.

3. You must've been hauling something very valuable and in an extremely paper thing ship if you can be one volleyed.

---

Originally by: Rilder

---

Edited by: Rilder on 08/01/2008 08:26:13
Another useful tip:

DON'T EVER ACTIVATE AUTOPILOT.

Auto-pilot is basicly useless, Ive only ever used it when flying around in an empty shuttle or ceptor.

---

Originally by: Lord Det

---

Originally by: Rilder

---

Edited by: Rilder on 08/01/2008 08:26:13
Another useful tip:

DON'T EVER ACTIVATE AUTOPILOT.

Auto-pilot is basicly useless, Ive only ever used it when flying around in an empty shuttle or ceptor.

---

I strongly disagree. The safest way for me to run my hauler through empire and even lowsec is to use the autopilot while still being at the keyboard:

* initiate warp to zero to next gate
* select gate again, choose 'add as first waypoint'
* activate autopilot

What happens? when you arrive at the gate, the autopilot will insta-jump you through without giving anyone the possibility to scan you. On the other side of the gate, you stay cloaked for 30 seconds.
Warp to zero to next gate, add as first waypoint again, activate autopilot....

You're only scannable during the time you're going for warp and not while you're sitting on a gate when you don't use the autopilot at all.

---

Originally by: CCP Wrangler

---

Oh dear, how about we all calm down a bit instead?

---

Originally by: Gamon Rowe

---

I lost yet another ship in a 0.9 system. I'm not complaining about losing a ship. I've got a good handle on losing ships. What gets me is that this is one of a number of ships that I've had destroyed in a 0.9 system. Not only that, but when my ship was flying through, there were forty-nine (49 x) CONCORD Police Commander/Officer/Captain ships at the gate.

---

Originally by: CCP Prism X

---

There's no such thing as playing too much EvE!
You all obviously need more accounts!

Originally by: Estephania

---

I am not a carebear, but I tend to agree with carebearing crowd on this one. Scanning someone's ship should be causing criminal flagging in high sec. No one except criminals should have any interest in your ships cargo. This simple fix will make suiciding in high sec worth the risk and the effort only if the attackers have some prior intel, and this is the only way it should work in high sec.

---

Originally by: Seishomaru

---

Next time. Transport everything in a ship with a Smartbomb. IF you are attacked in high sec. Drop your cargo and activate SB. At least they won get your loot.

---

Originally by: nether void

---

Originally by: Estephania

---

I am not a carebear, but I tend to agree with carebearing crowd on this one. Scanning someone's ship should be causing criminal flagging in high sec. No one except criminals should have any interest in your ships cargo. This simple fix will make suiciding in high sec worth the risk and the effort only if the attackers have some prior intel, and this is the only way it should work in high sec.

---

This.

I said this as well in another thread. Cargo scan? Insta CONCORD pop. Solved.

Even though I would rather not see it, I'd rather have high sec changed to perfect sec than reward people who sqeeze their way around the rules, because that's what the double team shoot and loot teams are really doing. They've found a loophole that isn't closed, so they're using it. ... So close it already.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Originally by: nether void

---

Originally by: Estephania

---

I am not a carebear, but I tend to agree with carebearing crowd on this one. Scanning someone's ship should be causing criminal flagging in high sec. No one except criminals should have any interest in your ships cargo. This simple fix will make suiciding in high sec worth the risk and the effort only if the attackers have some prior intel, and this is the only way it should work in high sec.

---

This.

I said this as well in another thread. Cargo scan? Insta CONCORD pop. Solved.

Even though I would rather not see it, I'd rather have high sec changed to perfect sec than reward people who sqeeze their way around the rules, because that's what the double team shoot and loot teams are really doing. They've found a loophole that isn't closed, so they're using it. ... So close it already.

---

Too bad its not a "problem", and ccp wholly supports suicide ganking for profit(even describes exactly how its done) and them using an alt character to pick up the loot.

http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=341

---

Originally by: Dex Nederland

---

What if the person scanning you is trying to supplement the local authority and is checking for contraband?

---

Originally by: nether void

---

Originally by: Estephania

---

I am not a carebear, but I tend to agree with carebearing crowd on this one. Scanning someone's ship should be causing criminal flagging in high sec. No one except criminals should have any interest in your ships cargo. This simple fix will make suiciding in high sec worth the risk and the effort only if the attackers have some prior intel, and this is the only way it should work in high sec.

---

This.

I said this as well in another thread. Cargo scan? Insta CONCORD pop. Solved.

Even though I would rather not see it, I'd rather have high sec changed to perfect sec than reward people who squeeze their way around the rules, because that's what the double team shoot and loot teams are really doing. They've found a loophole that isn't closed, so they're using it. ... So close it already.

---

Originally by: Hozac

---

Originally by: Seishomaru

---

Next time. Transport everything in a ship with a Smartbomb. IF you are attacked in high sec. Drop your cargo and activate SB. At least they won get your loot.

---

I fully endorse this idea.

---

Originally by: Seishomaru

---

Next time. Transport everything in a ship with a Smartbomb. IF you are attacked in high sec. Drop your cargo and activate SB. At least they won get your loot.

---

Originally by: nether void

---

Originally by: Estephania

---

I am not a carebear, but I tend to agree with carebearing crowd on this one. Scanning someone's ship should be causing criminal flagging in high sec. No one except criminals should have any interest in your ships cargo. This simple fix will make suiciding in high sec worth the risk and the effort only if the attackers have some prior intel, and this is the only way it should work in high sec.

---

This.

I said this as well in another thread. Cargo scan? Insta CONCORD pop. Solved.

Even though I would rather not see it, I'd rather have high sec changed to perfect sec than reward people who sqeeze their way around the rules, because that's what the double team shoot and loot teams are really doing. They've found a loophole that isn't closed, so they're using it. ... So close it already.

---

Originally by: Richard Phallus

---

CONCORD is not a deterrent, it is only a consequence. You need to provide your own deterrent.

---

Quote:

---

at least provide some deterrence against capital crimes.

---

Quote:

---

I lost yet another ship in a 0.9 system

---

Originally by: Aceoil

---

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

---

Originally by: Gamon Rowe

---

I was destroyed, mugged, and the assailant safely left the system

---

Originally by: Gamon Rowe

---

...I don't have any means of recouping my losses with my characters, but more than that, I don't rat or run missions...

---

Originally by: Stymie Jackson

---

Or FINALLY add what was recommened long ago.

If Concord blows up your ship, you get no insurance.

---

Originally by: Rajah Cudlar

---

Quote:

---

Hell, stay out of Caldari space altogether.

---

This. If you really need to be around a trade hub for business then you will enjoy yourself much more and make more isk too if you use Amarr, Rens, Agil or Ours.

---

Originally by: Benvie

---

Edited by: Benvie on 09/01/2008 09:18:46
People that say "Concord provides consequences" **** me off. What consequence exactly? The consequence of getting 90% of your ships value refunded by insurance? Please. That's a total crock and everyone knows it. The risk/reward for empire ganking is way out of whack and needs to be adjusted. So many people have argued this same point, and we're not asking for total safety in empire. But when the risk is HEAVILY tilted towards the innocent parties then something is wrong. When there's basically zero risk for being a suicide ganker, and a huge risk for trying to do legitimate business, something is wrong.

Little risk should equal little reward. That's how it is for the people hauling stuff. They haul very little value, they get little reward, they have little risk. Haul high value, the reward is high, and so is the risk. But this isn't true for the ganker. They always have little risk, because the punishment is always a slap on the wrist. But the reward is huge. Little risk, huge reward. Tell me, where is the balance? Where are the "consequences"?

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Originally by: Benvie

---

Edited by: Benvie on 09/01/2008 09:18:46
People that say "Concord provides consequences" **** me off. What consequence exactly? The consequence of getting 90% of your ships value refunded by insurance? Please. That's a total crock and everyone knows it. The risk/reward for empire ganking is way out of whack and needs to be adjusted. So many people have argued this same point, and we're not asking for total safety in empire. But when the risk is HEAVILY tilted towards the innocent parties then something is wrong. When there's basically zero risk for being a suicide ganker, and a huge risk for trying to do legitimate business, something is wrong.

Little risk should equal little reward. That's how it is for the people hauling stuff. They haul very little value, they get little reward, they have little risk. Haul high value, the reward is high, and so is the risk. But this isn't true for the ganker. They always have little risk, because the punishment is always a slap on the wrist. But the reward is huge. Little risk, huge reward. Tell me, where is the balance? Where are the "consequences"?

---

The risk of sitting there for 8 hours without a single idiot autopiloting by with a billion in cargo that you can kill.

Its impossible to suicide gank someone who knows what hes doing, not unlikely, impossible.

Suicide ganking is good for raising eve's IQ average.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

The risk of sitting there for 8 hours without a single idiot autopiloting by with a billion in cargo that you can kill.

Its impossible to suicide gank someone who knows what hes doing, not unlikely, impossible.

Suicide ganking is good for raising eve's IQ average.

---

Originally by: Hamfast

---

Originally by: Dex Nederland

---

What if the person scanning you is trying to supplement the local authority and is checking for contraband?

---

There was a News story about something like this, 2 guys in Police Uniforms pulling people over... they are in jail now...

---

Originally by: Hamfast

---

I think the idea that the Cargo Scanning ship gets flagged to the Scanned Ship (Like the ore thief is flagged to the miner whose can he stole ore from) is a good one, but to have it be a concording offense is way too much.

---

Originally by: Estephania

---

The attacker knows perfectly well what is he going to lose (not much usually as he's getting an insurance) and what is he most likely going to get. It's pure arithmetic. The victim however has no ways to defend, even bringing friends won't help as the readily available alt will quickly pick the loot. Doing this is stupidly easy. Ppl are already talking about suiciding freighters and that is the clear sign that the game mechanics is not working.

---

Originally by: Estephania

---

1) why cargo scanning another ship should not be considered a criminal act in high sec? What right you have to do it from the law enforcement point of view.

---

Originally by: Estephania

---

2) why should you receive insurance for a ship, lost in a blatant act of piracy committed in front of the law enforcement officers?

---

Originally by: Skaz

---

And if I'm gonna go truly nitpicking what kindof an empire doesn't adequately protect it's commerce inside it's territory?

---

Originally by: Matthew

---

... bear in mind that removing insurance payouts will not stop suicide ganking, it simply raises the bar at which it is profitable.

---

Originally by: Shanur

---

I actually like the idea of giving a cargo scanner an agression timer just as if he had looted a can belonging to the ship he scanned.

-snip-

Making the would be pirate blinky red would help a lot with that.

---

Originally by: Qui Shon

---

That's not a risk. Since there is no base "free" income in Eve (nor anywhere else afaik), no automatic positive isk flow to compare to. For there to be risk, there has to be potential loss. The hauler/trader risks his ship, his assets, i.e. his effective capital. His profit is already at risk from other traders, without any suicide gankers.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

The risk of sitting there for 8 hours without a single idiot autopiloting by with a billion in cargo that you can kill.

---

Quote:

---

Its impossible to suicide gank someone who knows what hes doing, not unlikely, impossible.

---

Originally by: Matthew

---

Of course, this begs the question, if the balance is really tipped as far against the hauler as you suggest, why are so many haulers still actively choosing to take that risk?

---

Originally by: SirMoric

---

Out of curiosity.

What would happen if you gank a cargovessel in high-sec, and when CONCORD warps in you simply leave the ship in your pod?

CONCORD won't kill your pod, but will they still kill your ship once you've bailed?

Just wondering..

rgds

---

Originally by: Nester

---

Originally by: Matthew

---

Of course, this begs the question, if the balance is really tipped as far against the hauler as you suggest, why are so many haulers still actively choosing to take that risk?

---

I'll just respond to this.

The answer as I see it: There are more people who are simply not interested in the act (or any one of its component parts) of s-ganking. I know quite a few people who are industrialists at heart. They enjoy building and creating, being self-sufficient. The act of preying on others violently just isn't their bag.

---

Quote:

---

The risk of sitting there for 8 hours without a single idiot autopiloting by with a billion in cargo that you can kill.

---

Originally by: Matthew

---

Originally by: Nester

---

Originally by: Matthew

---

Of course, this begs the question, if the balance is really tipped as far against the hauler as you suggest, why are so many haulers still actively choosing to take that risk?

---

I'll just respond to this.

The answer as I see it: There are more people who are simply not interested in the act (or any one of its component parts) of s-ganking. I know quite a few people who are industrialists at heart. They enjoy building and creating, being self-sufficient. The act of preying on others violently just isn't their bag.

---

So what you're saying is that even if suicide ganking was very profitable, there would be very few people doing it because they just don't want to? I don't buy it personally, theres more than enough people in eve ready and willing to shoot others for isk.

---

Originally by: Ulstan

---

That's not a risk, anymore than a mission runner getting really bored while mission running is a 'risk'.

---

Quote:

---

The risk vs reward of suicide ganking is truly bizarre. As long as you cargo scan, the reward is all on the side of the gankers, the risk all on the side of the poor innocent hauler who has battleships erupt onto his t1 indy out of a clear blue sky.

There really is no risk to the pirate: You lose your fully insured ship, but you know ahead of time it will be lost, so you fit and insure it accordingly.

There really is no reward to the ganked person: if you die, you lose everything, if you live, well, you get nothing.

---

Originally by: Nester

---

No, what I am saying is that regardless of profitability there are people who simply aren't going to engage in predation.

---

Originally by: Nester

---

You asked why haulers still take the risk, here it is more condensed for (hopefully) clarity:

That is simply what appeals to them in the game, as opposed to the alternative, or quitting.

---

Originally by: Ris Dnalor

---

Much BS

---

Originally by: Herself

---

and just had another thought

4)... baddies gets flagged to all who have a high sec status with Concord etc (for 15 mins) and a 24 hour flag to the victim (and their corp if they're in a non NPC one).... would imagine flag would be a bit like the War Target one ...

.......the 's are looking for PvP after all! and it might even create a new high sec career path for some ...

---

Originally by: Chi'an Peimei

---

totally cool idea

---

Originally by: Qui Shon

---

That's not a risk. Since there is no base "free" income in Eve (nor anywhere else afaik), no automatic positive isk flow to compare to. For there to be risk, there has to be potential loss. The hauler/trader risks his ship, his assets, i.e. his effective capital. His profit is already at risk from other traders, without any suicide gankers.

The ganker on the other hand does not risk his assets, he doesn't risk anything at all, since even if he should fail in his gank, he will still have his insurance money and the loot from his own wreck. Normally T1 loot would be so low in value it's not worth mentioning, but so pathethic are the potential losses of the suicide ganker in case of failure, that they should be included.

Though I'd not be for such a change, if you want any sort of balance in hauler/ganker profit/risk, you need to introduce 90-100+% effective cargo insurance, valid even in case of deliberate selfdestruction, to match the ship insurance we have now.

---

Originally by: shismo

---

Well, this is not part of the OPs main point, but he brought it up so ill comment.

What they should do is give anyone who has not gotten concord angry at them in the past week a reputation boost. Every week. Not a large one but to where someone who doesn't rat or mission run can slowly go up over time for being a good citizen.

---

Originally by: Katherine Marx

---

you make a great point. people who play WOW should stay there.

---

Originally by: Zara Xizor

---

Originally by: Ris Dnalor

---

Much BS

---

I like misquoting ppl and not fully reading their posts!

Nuff Said.

---

Originally by: Layla

---

A simple deterrent, that would fit well within the game mechanics and environment, would be for there to be no insurance pay-out on ships that are destroyed by Concord or other law-enforcement agencies within high-sec space.

Of course this is only a DETERRENT, not a complete solution, but it raises the stakes for the suicide gankers and would probably help the newer, more vulnerable players hauling less valuable cargoes.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Originally by: Ulstan

---

That's not a risk, anymore than a mission runner getting really bored while mission running is a 'risk'.

---

It is a risk, anything that changes your isk/hour is a risk.

Otherwise nothing in highsec would have risk, it'd be all reward.

---

Originally by: Matthew

---

As long as you ensure that the value of your cargo is less than the value gankers would lose by ganking you, your risk of getting suicide ganked is very, very small. It is entirely possible to have a good career as a hauler without ever attracting the attention of the suicide gankers.

---

Originally by: Cecil Montague

---

They should change that warning on entering low sec to:

"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."

---

Originally by: Gamon Rowe

---

I lost yet another ship in a 0.9 system.

---