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Khanid Kutie
I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:14:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: JitaCitizen 72395
Edited by: JitaCitizen 72395 on 10/01/2008 11:37:47
Last night I accidently managed to get a character trapped inside a station, unable to do anything but lose skillpoints.
I had set the characters clone to a 0.0 NPC station my corp had an office at. At the time I didn't realise this station lacked a medical service, but the next time I was podded I respawned there. Unable to update my clone or change its location, I undocked into a heavy interdictor camp covering the station. To make matters worse, the undock point dumps you 4km outside docking range, making it impossible to re-dock or warp off. After dying and losing skillpoints, I respawned back inside the same station. The dictor pilot was obviously still in local, but checking if the camp would result in being 4km from the station and podded again.
After petitioning as stuck and explaining the situation three times, a GM said that CCP policy prevented the character being moved anywhere, and insisted that I travel to another station to upgrade my clone.
I have to ask a few questions of CCP:
a) Why is it possible to get a character near-permanently stuck in this manner? My playing time is limited now, and I can't be around hoping to catch a time when the dictor camp is gone. This character is now both broken and useless to me.
b) Why are there still station models that dump you well outside docking range? In 0.0 this means certain death when interdictors are involved, and all but shuttles have bad odds anywhere else. The station in question is a Gallente Refinery.
c) Why is there no warning when you set a clone location to somewhere with no medical services? We get warnings when accepting contracts we may not be able to collect, but there's no warning for a very easy way to lose skillpoints.
d) Why is it CCP policy to enforce characters remaining in one station against their will indefinitely? I can understand why skillpoints won't be replaced, but players with characters unable to do anything again are simply going to cancel their subscriptions. I don't see how that makes sense to them or CCP.
if youre asking if it should be petitionable, the only way to find out is ummmm yeah TO PETITION it...
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Tamia Clant
New Dawn Corp
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:39:00 -
[32]
I didn't read the whole thread, but in case no one mentioned it yet, you can get out by jump cloning to a different location and changing your clone station. Even if you get back to your old clone and get podded, you'll be moved to the destination station of your choice.
Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
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Haks'he Lirky
Dominion Imperium
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:50:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Haks''he Lirky on 10/01/2008 18:50:54
wait a sec, you got your self into trouble and now you want CCP to bail you out (or create medchanics so you dont get into trouble)?
I bet you have your mom on speed dial #1
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Yakoff
Star Scream Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:10:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
Edited by: Haks''he Lirky on 10/01/2008 18:50:54
wait a sec, you got your self into trouble and now you want CCP to bail you out (or create medchanics so you dont get into trouble)?
I bet you have your mom on speed dial #1
You are completely incorrect with that unnecessary statement sir. Mommy is on #2. My therapist is on #1.
Though I usually conference her in.
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Cotton Tail
Domination.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:13:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
Edited by: Haks''he Lirky on 10/01/2008 18:50:54
wait a sec, you got your self into trouble and now you want CCP to bail you out (or create medchanics so you dont get into trouble)?
I bet you have your mom on speed dial #1
To be fair hes in a sucky situation because it seems CCP allows you to set your clone at a station with an office in but without a bio-med facility.
However it's not something to be cured by a stuck petition. He either has to deal with it the intelligent way, which is making a break for it when its safe for him to do so, or he could try petitioning it as a bug and asking it to be resolved. In his current situation he certainly isn't 'stuck'.
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Skyslider
Gallente
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:36:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Skyslider on 10/01/2008 19:36:49
One thing though, if you are being deposited outside of docking range when you undock, file a bug report listing the specific station (a petition won't help), and, if claims made shortly after the patch are true, they will actually fix the station. It may also be possible to petition for one of your losses from being deposited outside of docking range (assuming you exercised due caution and did absolutely nothing till the redocking timer ran out).
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Mara Nobars
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:38:00 -
[37]
Start up an alt, put 'em in a fast frigate (send ISK from your main to do it - every race has a fast tech 1, tier 2 frigate) with a big honkin' shield extender or armor plate (whichever is appropriate) ... add either dual warp core stabilizers or a nanofiber and inertial stabilizer, fly to wear you are stuck, contract over the ship to the main.
Very few people can lock and get enough hits in to take out such a frigate before warp out. Easy to blow through most camps that way. Remember to Warp-To-Zero to the gate on your way out, 'cause if they have fast-warping ships they can beat you to the gate, but if you WTZ and jump, and just keep that up, you should make it.
Dual Warp Core Stabilizers - hard, but not impossible to warp scramble (they'd need to get three points of warp jam on you or more)
Nano/IStab - super fast to warp-align and accelerate
Suggested frigates - Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher (there are others that work, but these are dead-easy for a random alt to fly)
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joydivision
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:43:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Mara Nobars
Start up an alt, put 'em in a fast frigate (send ISK from your main to do it - every race has a fast tech 1, tier 2 frigate) with a big honkin' shield extender or armor plate (whichever is appropriate) ... add either dual warp core stabilizers or a nanofiber and inertial stabilizer, fly to wear you are stuck, contract over the ship to the main.
Very few people can lock and get enough hits in to take out such a frigate before warp out. Easy to blow through most camps that way. Remember to Warp-To-Zero to the gate on your way out, 'cause if they have fast-warping ships they can beat you to the gate, but if you WTZ and jump, and just keep that up, you should make it.
Dual Warp Core Stabilizers - hard, but not impossible to warp scramble (they'd need to get three points of warp jam on you or more)
Nano/IStab - super fast to warp-align and accelerate
Suggested frigates - Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher (there are others that work, but these are dead-easy for a random alt to fly)
All completey wrong, he'll die again. he said the're using HIC's, so it doesn't matter how many warp stabs he has, or how many armour plates, and he'll have to get out of the bubble area before being webbed in his nano'd ship.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2008.01.10 20:58:00 -
[39]
The way you can set your respawn death clone at a station that has no medical facility is broken and needs to be fixed.
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My new years resolution is to give up nonconstructive posting |
Kage Psychodin
Caldari
The Empire Nation
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:42:00 -
[40]
if what he said is true about being dumped outside the redocking range, he can, and should petition this, and would get his SP back. they stated a while ago that since the Trinity update, some stations are out of whack, and that you should not be dumped outside of redocking range.
Another one bites the dust. |
FuQue
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: "JitaCitizen72395"
had set the characters clone to a 0.0 NPC station my corp had an office at. At the time I didn't realise this station lacked a medical service, but the next time I was podded I respawned there.
You can set medical clones to a station with no medical bay?? That sounds like a bug to me, to be perfectly honest. How can you have a medical clone with no medical bay to contain it? Makes no sense CCP.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:17:00 -
[42]
There is a couple of things everyone seems to be forgetting:
1) the undock point is broken since it puts you out of redock range (or all other undock points are broken since they do put you into redocking range).
2) he has a medical clone in a station without medical facility; i.e. if he dies he looses skillpoints and respawns there again.
3a) the campers are exploiting a broken undock point or
3b) carriers are exploiting broken redock points (within redock range, which are huge on some Caldari stations as in way over 30 km).
Soooo, even though his actions put him there he is the victim of unintended game features (he shouldnt respawn there and the undock point is borked or all undock points except this one are borked).
The game is designed in such a way that there you are able to redock once undocked; he may expect the game to work in such a fashion as no changes to this design have been communicated; that brings us to the conclusion that this is a bug and his pod loss is reimbursable and so are the lost skillpoints because they are caused by a bug which is reprodyucable as well.
The second question if he should be moved or not is something that is harder to answer; the question is if the game design that this is possible is intentional; if so then heh get help to break the camp or find an hour that the undock is not camped; if it's not the game design and the result of a design flaw then he should be elligible for a stuck petition. Only the gamedesigners could answer this one allthough logic would assume that this behaviour is unintentional and this bugged.
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Originally by: CCP Wrangler
If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
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Haks'he Lirky
Dominion Imperium
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Posted - 2008.01.11 00:55:00 -
[43]
Originally by: DrAtomic
There is a couple of things everyone seems to be forgetting:
1) the undock point is broken since it puts you out of redock range (or all other undock points are broken since they do put you into redocking range).
Does it matter that he cant redock? if there are hostiles out side the station then there are other methods of getting intel, undocking to redock immediately would not seem to be an intended intel gathering feature.
Originally by: DrAtomic
2) he has a medical clone in a station without medical facility; i.e. if he dies he looses skillpoints and respawns there again.
I once shot at a gate by accident and got concordokkened, he failed to put his clone in a suitable station, tough luck. There are numerous ways to screw up in eve, it's a harsh game.
Originally by: DrAtomic
3a) the campers are exploiting a broken undock point or
3b) carriers are exploiting broken redock points (within redock range, which are huge on some Caldari stations as in way over 30 km).
If they are exploiting a "broken" undock point then what about the guys who are good at bumping people out of docking range?
If they are camping the guy 23/7 then he probably deserves it? And that effort is hard to perform despite "broken" docking points and as such CCP should not interfere. I believe that any player worth anything would be able to get out of that station within one or two days, or if not admire silently that someone lubs him enough to camp him in a station so efficiently.
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 01:39:00 -
[44]
The 4 km undock range bug is known by CCP.
If that happens, his petition is valid. Any GM that doesn't understand is wrong and needs to be corrected from higher ups at CCP.
The server logs probably doesn't show that he undock outside docking range, but if GMs are allowed to use common sense, they can verify this bug with some effort. Granted, they are probably too busy to bother with such investigations. But the point is that the petition is valid
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Haks'he Lirky
Dominion Imperium
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Posted - 2008.01.11 07:12:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ephemeron
The 4 km undock range bug is known by CCP.
If that happens, his petition is valid. Any GM that doesn't understand is wrong and needs to be corrected from higher ups at CCP.
The server logs probably doesn't show that he undock outside docking range, but if GMs are allowed to use common sense, they can verify this bug with some effort. Granted, they are probably too busy to bother with such investigations. But the point is that the petition is valid
Explain on thing for me then, would he be any less stuck if the docking range was ok?
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Danae Melios
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
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Posted - 2008.01.11 07:58:00 -
[46]
I know of at least two documented (on this forum, cba to use the broken search function) cases of players who returned to Eve after taking a break, found themselves in outposts in hostile territory, with clones set to outposts without medical facilities, under hostile camp and unable to negotiate safe passage. They were advised to petition as stuck, and replied to their threads that they were indeed moved to an npc station by the GMs.
It has happened before, it will happen in the future. There is clear precedent if you have been absent from the game, podkilled repeatedly trying to leave, and have been repeatedly denied a chance to leave, you can be moved. You are stuck by unintended gameplay, and it has been this way since the fall of ASCN (that is when I recall the first post like this).
The problem, of course, is convincing the GM that there is precedence. Since we don't know if the GMs involved got demerits or whatever for doing this, we don't really know if they are *supposed* to do it, just that there have been precedents for this.
And if it is not supposed to be taking place, it would be good if someone could drag up some news item or forum post from CCP or a game master addressing it.
Originally by: game box
Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin.
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Morberi
Scrutari
The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.01.11 08:25:00 -
[47]
HE IS NOT STUCK.
This is not a bug in the game, yes the station putting you out that far is weird but to be honest in only a pod he would have died before the docking timer ran out anyway.
If he wants out he can get out by waiting a few hours, hey maybe even a day if he really wants to be safe, and then he can undock then. This is just like gate camping, if you put your jump clone in a dead end system and someones camping the gates out its your own fault, yeah your stuck but if you could use out of game mechanics to warp away to another system your cheating the people guarding the gate.
What the OP wants is to cheat because he can't think of a valid in-game mechanic to deal with his situation even though many exist.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.11 08:37:00 -
[48]
Originally by: JitaCitizen 72395
Edited by: JitaCitizen 72395 on 10/01/2008 11:37:47
Last night I accidently managed to get a character trapped inside a station, unable to do anything but lose skillpoints.
I had set the characters clone to a 0.0 NPC station my corp had an office at. At the time I didn't realise this station lacked a medical service, but the next time I was podded I respawned there. Unable to update my clone or change its location, I undocked into a heavy interdictor camp covering the station. To make matters worse, the undock point dumps you 4km outside docking range, making it impossible to re-dock or warp off. After dying and losing skillpoints, I respawned back inside the same station. The dictor pilot was obviously still in local, but checking if the camp would result in being 4km from the station and podded again.
After petitioning as stuck and explaining the situation three times, a GM said that CCP policy prevented the character being moved anywhere, and insisted that I travel to another station to upgrade my clone.
I have to ask a few questions of CCP:
a) Why is it possible to get a character near-permanently stuck in this manner? My playing time is limited now, and I can't be around hoping to catch a time when the dictor camp is gone. This character is now both broken and useless to me.
b) Why are there still station models that dump you well outside docking range? In 0.0 this means certain death when interdictors are involved, and all but shuttles have bad odds anywhere else. The station in question is a Gallente Refinery.
c) Why is there no warning when you set a clone location to somewhere with no medical services? We get warnings when accepting contracts we may not be able to collect, but there's no warning for a very easy way to lose skillpoints.
d) Why is it CCP policy to enforce characters remaining in one station against their will indefinitely? I can understand why skillpoints won't be replaced, but players with characters unable to do anything again are simply going to cancel their subscriptions. I don't see how that makes sense to them or CCP.
Didnt you read the warning messages when you exited empire controled space?
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[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Morden Nok
Cohortes Vigilum
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 08:38:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ephemeron
The 4 km undock range bug is known by CCP.
Have you actually gotten confirmation about this one from CCP? Remember, there are quite many GM's who have very sketchy knowledge about game mechanics, for example one told us that "remote repping triggers agression" when it doesn't.
There are hundreds of stations that have always spit you out from docking range, most are in empire though. The fact that most stations have undocks within docking range does not mean that it is the "law".
And yes, you can set your medical clone to a station with no cloning services, but that is a feature not a bug. Mostly used by alt scouts who don't care about SP's and those few people that are stupid enough not to see what it will invariably mean in future.
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Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
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Posted - 2008.01.11 08:50:00 -
[50]
I'm amazed at the lack of sympathy shown sometimes in this place!
Being podded over and over without an up to date clone is at best a grey area and while not an exploit it's surely not something CCP envisaged when designing the game.
A good answer in the long term (though this does not help the OP's current predicament) would be either to have the option to set clones to auto update with some sort of Direct Debit system from your wallet, or at least to allow you to update your clone from anywhere you like remotely.
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ZerKar
Caldari
Zen'Tar
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Posted - 2008.01.11 08:52:00 -
[51]
While the cloning facilities thing seems fair (I mean how can you HAVE a clone in a place without Facilities anyway? How does that work?) I am not sure if this guy is even for real.
He has not said anything in awhile and look at his name. Looks like he has had a run in with the GM's in a bad way before.
+++++++++++++++
I saw the Sign...!
O.o |
RaTTuS
BIG
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2008.01.11 09:11:00 -
[52]
Originally by: ZerKar
... look at his name. Looks like he has had a run in with the GM's in a bad way before.
na - obviously an alt to keep the main secret.
ccp wont rename chars to JitaCitizen ... only one of the races
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BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve [Now Verified] & Recruiting
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Lazuran
Gallente
Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.11 09:16:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Morden Nok
Originally by: Ephemeron
The 4 km undock range bug is known by CCP.
Have you actually gotten confirmation about this one from CCP?
This was officially said by CCP and I remember the threads on EVE-O about it going like this: "the only good change in Trinity is apparently a bug!"...
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois. |
Lazuran
Gallente
Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.11 09:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Fink Angel
I'm amazed at the lack of sympathy shown sometimes in this place!
Being podded over and over without an up to date clone is at best a grey area and while not an exploit it's surely not something CCP envisaged when designing the game.
A good answer in the long term (though this does not help the OP's current predicament) would be either to have the option to set clones to auto update with some sort of Direct Debit system from your wallet, or at least to allow you to update your clone from anywhere you like remotely.
Indeed. Also, it seems "broken" that the game allows you to "set a clone to station X" when station X has no facilities for clones. And even if one would want to defend this unlogical thing, is there any practical use for it at all that justifies the disadvantages (as seen here)?
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois. |
Morberi
Scrutari
The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.01.11 09:37:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Lazuran
Originally by: Fink Angel
I'm amazed at the lack of sympathy shown sometimes in this place!
Being podded over and over without an up to date clone is at best a grey area and while not an exploit it's surely not something CCP envisaged when designing the game.
A good answer in the long term (though this does not help the OP's current predicament) would be either to have the option to set clones to auto update with some sort of Direct Debit system from your wallet, or at least to allow you to update your clone from anywhere you like remotely.
Indeed. Also, it seems "broken" that the game allows you to "set a clone to station X" when station X has no facilities for clones. And even if one would want to defend this unlogical thing, is there any practical use for it at all that justifies the disadvantages (as seen here)?
Yes there are, I also have this desire to now post nothing but "unlogical" over and over but I think doing that is a forum offense.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.01.11 09:44:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Morberi
HE IS NOT STUCK.
This is not a bug in the game, yes the station putting you out that far is weird but to be honest in only a pod he would have died before the docking timer ran out anyway.
If he wants out he can get out by waiting a few hours, hey maybe even a day if he really wants to be safe, and then he can undock then. This is just like gate camping, if you put your jump clone in a dead end system and someones camping the gates out its your own fault, yeah your stuck but if you could use out of game mechanics to warp away to another system your cheating the people guarding the gate.
What the OP wants is to cheat because he can't think of a valid in-game mechanic to deal with his situation even though many exist.
I love the smell of ignorance in the morning!
It actually is a bug, confirmed by devs not some half-wit GM. They aren't camping it because this guy ****ed them off (though even if he did that's beside the point) they're doing it because they know it's bugged and they can get easy kills.
If it was not bugged he would be invulnerable for 30 seconds and then able to re-dock. You know... like it's been for the past few years. No, I guess you didn't know 
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Morberi
Scrutari
The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.01.11 09:53:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Morberi on 11/01/2008 09:54:23
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Morberi
HE IS NOT STUCK.
This is not a bug in the game, yes the station putting you out that far is weird but to be honest in only a pod he would have died before the docking timer ran out anyway.
If he wants out he can get out by waiting a few hours, hey maybe even a day if he really wants to be safe, and then he can undock then. This is just like gate camping, if you put your jump clone in a dead end system and someones camping the gates out its your own fault, yeah your stuck but if you could use out of game mechanics to warp away to another system your cheating the people guarding the gate.
What the OP wants is to cheat because he can't think of a valid in-game mechanic to deal with his situation even though many exist.
I love the smell of ignorance in the morning!
It actually is a bug, confirmed by devs not some half-wit GM. They aren't camping it because this guy ****ed them off (though even if he did that's beside the point) they're doing it because they know it's bugged and they can get easy kills.
If it was not bugged he would be invulnerable for 30 seconds and then able to re-dock. You know... like it's been for the past few years. No, I guess you didn't know
If he should have been invulnerable (never heard of that or tried undocking with enemies outside )yes thats a bug, but he still would have been stuck in the station and he's still asking for CPP to move him because he doesn't want to wait the couple hours it would take for the campers to go away. If he had come back after a few years or months then he has a legitimate issue, but this is just him making a stupid (yes but understandable ) mistake.
He is also still NOT STUCK. He posted about campers killing him, not an alliance or corp as he tried to escape their borders.
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Antraxx
Caldari
Deviance Inc
DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:47:00 -
[58]
/Have to throw my 2 pennys worth in..One of the more interesting posts..
Personally-I'd try and escalate the petition.
Not because i couldnt figure out how to get out (that part,as has been said many times,is relatively easy),but because of the undock range bug.
When CCP introduces one of their "Unintended Features" to the game,Players are usually warned publically that using buggy mechanics to get an advantadge is bannable.
The campers clearly are fully aware of the undock on that station,and placing a HIC/Dictor there IS abusing the bug.
Yes he would still be stuck,but he wouldnt be losing SP every time he poked his nose out of station..
(Yes i too would use an alt to scout etc....But thats beside the point...He shouldnt have to)
The original idea of putting a clone there was somewhat daft ofc,and the Op has put himself in this predicament.
Doesnt mean he should get screwed over every time because of the undock range tho.. o.0
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Deviance Inc. is recruiting!-Eve mail me :)
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait
we are screwed. delaying startup again. |
Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:13:00 -
[59]
Seems it should warn you before letting you stick a clone somewhere with no med station.
After all, it warns you for everything else (including setting a BUY order 99% below regional average).
But I gotta say. . . You're in 0.0 and you don't have at least 1 jumpclone to escape with? Can't anyone get them at EC-P8R, regardless of standings?
--------------------
ICE Blueprint Sales
FIRST!! -Yipsilanti
Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:29:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Morden Nok
Originally by: Ephemeron
The 4 km undock range bug is known by CCP.
Have you actually gotten confirmation about this one from CCP? Remember, there are quite many GM's who have very sketchy knowledge about game mechanics, for example one told us that "remote repping triggers agression" when it doesn't.
There are hundreds of stations that have always spit you out from docking range, most are in empire though. The fact that most stations have undocks within docking range does not mean that it is the "law".
And yes, you can set your medical clone to a station with no cloning services, but that is a feature not a bug. Mostly used by alt scouts who don't care about SP's and those few people that are stupid enough not to see what it will invariably mean in future.
it is.
lost a ship due to it and got reimbruised.
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planetary interaction idea! |
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