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Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.01.10 17:45:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Cpt Fina on 10/01/2008 17:45:33
from Wreckthread Originally by: Xaen
The fact that there's a contradiction between the statement "does not profit in any way" and the example of blowing up newbies (since you profit from their wrecks and cans) only serves to illustrate that it's the spirit of the "don't grief" rule that matters, not the particular verbiage.
In this case the one that hold the pod doesn't even get any financial gain from it. Should be even more clear how to classify it then.
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EliteSlave
Minmatar
Tau Ceti Global Production
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:10:00 -
[32]
i do not think it would be a form of grief, hopefully we can get an official response out of this..
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:33:00 -
[33]
Yes, it is griefing.
No, I won't stop doing it.
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Ishan Mons
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:44:00 -
[34]
how long does it take to pop a pod with a civilian railgun? 
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Xaen
Caldari
Black Podding
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:52:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Cpt Fina
from Wreckthread Originally by: Xaen
The fact that there's a contradiction between the statement "does not profit in any way" and the example of blowing up newbies (since you profit from their wrecks and cans) only serves to illustrate that it's the spirit of the "don't grief" rule that matters, not the particular verbiage.
In this case the one that hold the pod doesn't even get any financial gain from it. Should be even more clear how to classify it then.
The fact that, in the OP's case at least, it's retaliation, I imagine the GMs would be more willing to allow it.
It can be a very grey area and should be handled on a case by case basis.
Doing it once to one person who stole stole from your can? Probably not griefing.
Doing it habitually to everybody you see in a pod? Griefing.
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nether void
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:27:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Edited by: Cpt Fina on 10/01/2008 17:45:33
from Wreckthread Originally by: Xaen
The fact that there's a contradiction between the statement "does not profit in any way" and the example of blowing up newbies (since you profit from their wrecks and cans) only serves to illustrate that it's the spirit of the "don't grief" rule that matters, not the particular verbiage.
In this case the one that hold the pod doesn't even get any financial gain from it. Should be even more clear how to classify it then.
The financial gain is in the ore thief not being able to try to steal from you again.
The problem with 'does not profit in any way' does not apply in Eve. In Eve every action changes the profit or loss of another individual no matter what that action is. Even the action of logging off changes it. Even the action of cancelling your account. Even the action of choosing not to purchase the game in so much effectively never having played the game. Everything changes, if even on a minute scale, the profit and loss of every individual in the game in some sort of way.
Therefore there can be no act that can be considered griefing.
...Which is why I don't agree with the definition of griefing in this game, but that's an entirely seperate thread.
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nethervoid - since '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|EVE|HZ|NWN|VG|WoW] |
EliteSlave
Minmatar
Tau Ceti Global Production
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:22:00 -
[37]
so is this grief or not?
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Malcanis
5 finger discounteers
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:23:00 -
[38]
Originally by: EliteSlave
Lets say im mining in a belt, and you come flip my can, and i aggro you and pop your ship and then i point / web your pod, and keep you their, would you consider this to be griefing? or just a use of gameplay mechanics?
Not really. I can just log out.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
syphurous
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:27:00 -
[39]
Log out, come back in 20 minutes, problem solved.
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All Ur Salvage R Belong 2 Me ! |
Xaen
Caldari
Black Podding
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:27:00 -
[40]
Originally by: nether void
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Edited by: Cpt Fina on 10/01/2008 17:45:33
from Wreckthread Originally by: Xaen
The fact that there's a contradiction between the statement "does not profit in any way" and the example of blowing up newbies (since you profit from their wrecks and cans) only serves to illustrate that it's the spirit of the "don't grief" rule that matters, not the particular verbiage.
In this case the one that hold the pod doesn't even get any financial gain from it. Should be even more clear how to classify it then.
The financial gain is in the ore thief not being able to try to steal from you again.
The problem with 'does not profit in any way' does not apply in Eve. In Eve every action changes the profit or loss of another individual no matter what that action is. Even the action of logging off changes it. Even the action of cancelling your account. Even the action of choosing not to purchase the game in so much effectively never having played the game. Everything changes, if even on a minute scale, the profit and loss of every individual in the game in some sort of way.
Therefore there can be no act that can be considered griefing.
...Which is why I don't agree with the definition of griefing in this game, but that's an entirely seperate thread.
Amazing. Someone else gets it.
I'm so tired of the lawyeresque fools that cite verbiage and thump on it like it's the final say. The "no profit" part was probably a mistake and should be corrected so they don't think it's true and try to use it to argue.
Griefing is mostly common sense. As soon as you try to codify it some asshat will adhere to the letter of the rule, crap on the spirit and act all indignant when they get punished.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:56:00 -
[41]
You should be able to pod them, sometimes for a "Harsh and dangerous" world it does give the impression of a Hello kitty pirate adventureÖ because of the lack of punishment.
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My new years resolution is to give up nonconstructive posting |
Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: nether void
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Edited by: Cpt Fina on 10/01/2008 17:45:33
from Wreckthread Originally by: Xaen
The fact that there's a contradiction between the statement "does not profit in any way" and the example of blowing up newbies (since you profit from their wrecks and cans) only serves to illustrate that it's the spirit of the "don't grief" rule that matters, not the particular verbiage.
In this case the one that hold the pod doesn't even get any financial gain from it. Should be even more clear how to classify it then.
The financial gain is in the ore thief not being able to try to steal from you again.
The problem with 'does not profit in any way' does not apply in Eve. In Eve every action changes the profit or loss of another individual no matter what that action is. Even the action of logging off changes it. Even the action of cancelling your account. Even the action of choosing not to purchase the game in so much effectively never having played the game. Everything changes, if even on a minute scale, the profit and loss of every individual in the game in some sort of way.
Therefore there can be no act that can be considered griefing.
...Which is why I don't agree with the definition of griefing in this game, but that's an entirely seperate thread.
Well every action can have an effect on anybody. When I appear in local after logging in some guy might stop for 1 more second in system to check my portrait, he then 20 jumps later encounter one of his wartargets who he manages to intercept due to the delay. Said wartarget was flying a hauler in which he transported modules that he was going to undercut me with on the regional market. Therefor logging in to Eve just meant a financial benefit to me.
This way of acting results in no direct/obvious financial gain just as canbaiting noob outside a station.
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Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:51:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Cpt Fina
from Wreckthread Originally by: Xaen
The fact that there's a contradiction between the statement "does not profit in any way" and the example of blowing up newbies (since you profit from their wrecks and cans) only serves to illustrate that it's the spirit of the "don't grief" rule that matters, not the particular verbiage.
In this case the one that hold the pod doesn't even get any financial gain from it. Should be even more clear how to classify it then.
The fact that, in the OP's case at least, it's retaliation, I imagine the GMs would be more willing to allow it.
I'd imagine they wouldn't. I havent heard anything about that underlying motives can legitimize actions that otherwise would/might be considered an exploit. Got a link?
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 00:50:00 -
[44]
I dont see how this would be griefing, they are stealing your stuff that you worked for, so there is a consequence? Let them pay a ransom to get out or let them self destruct their pod to get out.
Game mechanics... grey sure... just as grey as can flipping is...
Rated: nice counter, please use spread word!
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Originally by: CCP Wrangler
If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
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Thunderguts
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.01.11 00:51:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Originally by: nether void
This is like the people that rob your house, but sue you cause they tripped over a toy in the hallway and broke their ankle.
I wouldn't call it griefing; I'd call it justice and your moral obligation.
So some people should have the right to use currently unsactioned gamemechanics against players who have chosen to play an allowed and by CCP advertised careerpath because you don't condone their way of playing?
I don't think that's what nether void meant. He said it was justice to mess with a can flipper, that's not the same as saying he "doesn't condone their way of playing". My character may not be a pirate, but that doesn't mean I "don't condone piracy". It's a roleplaying game and people should play different roles. It may be the only true roleplaying game, in fact. What I would say, and I think nether void meant, was that if somebody is playing the "bad guy" and trying to prey on me, it is entirely fair that I turn the tables and make mischief back upon him.
Think about this for a minute. How would the can flipper write his petition to CCP? "Hey, I was griefing newbs in this asteroid belt and one of them turned around and griefed me back..." I doubt CCP would punish this offense.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2008.01.11 01:36:00 -
[46]
Can flipping is not greifing though.
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My new years resolution is to give up nonconstructive posting |
SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.11 17:46:00 -
[47]
if you enjoy finger painting i wont tell you its wrong
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:08:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Thunderguts
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Originally by: nether void
This is like the people that rob your house, but sue you cause they tripped over a toy in the hallway and broke their ankle.
I wouldn't call it griefing; I'd call it justice and your moral obligation.
So some people should have the right to use currently unsactioned gamemechanics against players who have chosen to play an allowed and by CCP advertised careerpath because you don't condone their way of playing?
I don't think that's what nether void meant. He said it was justice to mess with a can flipper, that's not the same as saying he "doesn't condone their way of playing". My character may not be a pirate, but that doesn't mean I "don't condone piracy". It's a roleplaying game and people should play different roles. It may be the only true roleplaying game, in fact. What I would say, and I think nether void meant, was that if somebody is playing the "bad guy" and trying to prey on me, it is entirely fair that I turn the tables and make mischief back upon him.
Think about this for a minute. How would the can flipper write his petition to CCP? "Hey, I was griefing newbs in this asteroid belt and one of them turned around and griefed me back..." I doubt CCP would punish this offense.
As both ways of playing are allowed neither of them should be allowed to "punish" the other in any unsanctioned way.
And yes, you can try to punish the one that offends you BUT if you use any unsanctioned action you should get a warning or a ben just as everyone else. Revenge or bad/good guy doesn't have anything to do with it.
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Tzun Tsu
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:21:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Tzun Tsu on 12/01/2008 17:22:08
Wait you mean I can keep stealing some carebears ore, follow him around and generally make his life a misery, but if he then decides to give me a little taste of my own medicine and ends up using this kind of tactic it's griefing and I can petition his ass?
sweet 
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:28:00 -
[50]
I think it is allowed as they can simply log off if they do not like it and dissapear after 15 minutes. In fact, there is not a lot that the agressor can do other than to kill the pod or let it escape.
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Tamia Clant
New Dawn Corp
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:31:00 -
[51]
Considering the player in the pod can self-destruct at any time and keep playing, I really don't see why holding the pod down should be considered griefing.
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Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:34:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kilabi
Edited by: Kilabi on 10/01/2008 17:28:38
If you do it to a ore thief you can say you do it for your own security because he can come back in a better ship to kill you = no griefing only selfdefence in my eyes.
But if you just do it to **** with him = griefing.
tread resolved.
and if you jsut want to be a bad perosn demand 100mil or heck even 10bil to let their pod go. it's not griefing its profiteering then.
and finally they can just log out and return 30min later when they dissappeared and their criminal countdown has run out. soe veryone held by this is just plain dumb.
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:37:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
and finally they can just log out and return 30min later when they dissappeared and their criminal countdown has run out. soe veryone held by this is just plain dumb.
Exactly. Nowadays, with jump clones, people no longer care less and will log or self destruct. The only person being greifed is the greifer thinking that he is toururing a pod, but actually is wasting his own quality gametime.
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