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Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 15:52:00 - [1] I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Why does this game favor the antagonist, leaving other players absolutely powerless against them? Put a bounty on their heads you say....whatever. Thats like putting money in their pocket, since they would just have a friend pop them and split the bounty. I'm sure some are thinking, hey Eve is not a friendly universe. That's fine. But make it equally unfriendly. Wreckage is money to a salvager. So as far as i'm concerned its just as bad as them taking loot, and often times worse cause that wreckage yields more isk.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.01.10 15:55:00 - [2] 1. A wreck is space junk. It doesn't belong to anyone. The items in the wreck on the other hand, does. 2. If salvaging would flag the salvager, you would kill a profession. 3. If salvaging would flag the salvager, in six months you would have a thread a day about some carebear losing his CNR after attacking a salvager. Pick one.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:01:00 - [3] 4. If salvaging flagged the salvager rigs would cost more. ---- Anything less is wasted effort
Trof Gallente Griffin Inc. Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:03:00 - [4] Edited by: Trof on 10/01/2008 16:03:38 I think it is really only a problem in populated systems. I mine in low populated low sec systems, rarely is there a problem with others salvaging my wrecks. Most players that come into the system are either pirates who ignore anything that is already dead or other miners. Sometimes a ratter/salvager will come into the system, generally they ask first if they can salvage your wrecks. I know it is not like that everywhere but this has been my experience. Free your Mind! Acknowledge and Move On!
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:04:00 - [5] Originally by: Ki An 3. If salvaging would flag the salvager, in six months you would have a thread a day about some carebear losing his CNR after attacking a salvager. I pick this one.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:04:00 - [6] If salvaging someone else's wreck got the aggro flag, then people would intentionally do it to get you to shoot at them, and then they would blow your ship up, and salvage the original wreck plus your ship. A lot of salvagers are flying around in minimally armed ships loaded with tractor beams and salvage beams. They would be easy, easy kills. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:11:00 - [7] I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:26:00 - [8] Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. No, if you're going to fix it, the fix must be just like cans. Aggro flags - otherwise, it's a WoW-like solution... ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:26:00 - [9] This is an intended game mechanic. If you don't like it hire a salvager to follow you around while you run missions. Or better yet, join a corp and have a corpmate run with you. Whining will not get this changed, the devs have stated time and time again that this is what they want.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain This is an intended game mechanic. If you don't like it hire a salvager to follow you around while you run missions. Or better yet, join a corp and have a corpmate run with you. Whining will not get this changed, the devs have stated time and time again that this is what they want. No, we should find where the OP is salvaging, and steal his loot and salvage his wrecks. Once he opens fire on us, we can blow his ship up and loot and salvage that. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.

Willow Whisp Sadist Faction	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Sheykal It has value, which is why loot is protected. "Loot" is not protected because it has value. Loot is protected, because back when there were no agression rights on jetisson containment fields, the pod pilot mining corporations united in a massive campaign to protect their jetisson containment fields to be tagged by concord so they could "defend their property against ore thieves". This is what got us the current mechanic of "Jetisson containment field agression flags". Not because they had value, but because the industrial corporations at the time engaged in massive whining about them using an unintended game mechanic to mine faster than what was originally intended. Fast forward to today, and "Ore theft" still happens, except now the ore thief has the happy advantage of being able to not only take the loot, but also kill the mining barge. Be careful what you ask for. -- Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes ^^ Woo hoo! Yellow Text!... wait... :(
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:35:00 - [12] Here we go again. Yes, wrecks are space junk, but that junk is worth more than your mission. Funny, isn't it? Example: I'm doing a lvl 4 mission, bounties and loot and mission reward plus bonus equal around 10 mill ISK. How much was worth the space junk after I salvaged and sold it? 12 mill ISK. Expensive junk we have here.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:37:00 - [13] Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. Cause everybody salvages loot within 10 minutes. They never finish killing the other rats in the room. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:37:00 - [14] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. No, if you're going to fix it, the fix must be just like cans. Aggro flags - otherwise, it's a WoW-like solution... You're contradicting your prior post Li, if you see aggro flags as a 'fix'. And why is it that to express your opinion on a game dynamic is labeled as a 'whine' when it differs from your opinion...
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar The Smithzonian Institute	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:40:00 - [15] Originally by: Sheykal I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Why does this game favor the antagonist, leaving other players absolutely powerless against them? Put a bounty on their heads you say....whatever. Thats like putting money in their pocket, since they would just have a friend pop them and split the bounty. I'm sure some are thinking, hey Eve is not a friendly universe. That's fine. But make it equally unfriendly. Wreckage is money to a salvager. So as far as i'm concerned its just as bad as them taking loot, and often times worse cause that wreckage yields more isk. OMG, use the fracking search.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. No, if you're going to fix it, the fix must be just like cans. Aggro flags - otherwise, it's a WoW-like solution... You're contradicting your prior post Li, if you see aggro flags as a 'fix'. And why is it that to express your opinion on a game dynamic is labeled as a 'whine' when it differs from your opinion... I don't see aggro flags as a fix - I don't think a fix is needed - but if you want a fix, then it should be aggro flags. Treat the wrecks just like loot if you want a fix - we could make the same argument... You have to understand that nothing in Eve was meant to be free, or free from risk. Just because you finished shooting some NPC rats and can now mine/loot/salvage doesn't mean your job is done - you have to defend the stuff until you get it to the station - anywhere along the line, someone can come and blow you up and take it. This isn't WoW... ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Sheykal snip And why is it that to express your opinion on a game dynamic is labeled as a 'whine' when it differs from your opinion... When you can't be bothered to properly search the forums and post in one of the other hundreds of thread already created on this subject, then yes, it is automatically a whine.
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. No, if you're going to fix it, the fix must be just like cans. Aggro flags - otherwise, it's a WoW-like solution... You're contradicting your prior post Li, if you see aggro flags as a 'fix'. And why is it that to express your opinion on a game dynamic is labeled as a 'whine' when it differs from your opinion... I don't see aggro flags as a fix - I don't think a fix is needed - but if you want a fix, then it should be aggro flags. Treat the wrecks just like loot if you want a fix - we could make the same argument... You have to understand that nothing in Eve was meant to be free, or free from risk. Just because you finished shooting some NPC rats and can now mine/loot/salvage doesn't mean your job is done - you have to defend the stuff until you get it to the station - anywhere along the line, someone can come and blow you up and take it. This isn't WoW... You do realize that the player that jumps on your newly made wreck, is in fact free from risk. Nice try though.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. No, if you're going to fix it, the fix must be just like cans. Aggro flags - otherwise, it's a WoW-like solution... You're contradicting your prior post Li, if you see aggro flags as a 'fix'. And why is it that to express your opinion on a game dynamic is labeled as a 'whine' when it differs from your opinion... I don't see aggro flags as a fix - I don't think a fix is needed - but if you want a fix, then it should be aggro flags. Treat the wrecks just like loot if you want a fix - we could make the same argument... You have to understand that nothing in Eve was meant to be free, or free from risk. Just because you finished shooting some NPC rats and can now mine/loot/salvage doesn't mean your job is done - you have to defend the stuff until you get it to the station - anywhere along the line, someone can come and blow you up and take it. This isn't WoW... You do realize that the player that jumps on your newly made wreck, is in fact free from risk. Nice try though. No, they're not. Why don't you shoot them? Or are you living in high sec, where the salvage sucks? ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:51:00 - [20] Edited by: Sheykal on 10/01/2008 16:52:03 Li, this game covers alot more then just low sec space. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that.

Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Sheykal Li, this game covers alot more then just 0.0 space. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that. I live in low sec... Apparently you seem to believe that everything in the game should be free of risk, especially after you've spent a minimal effort to kill an NPC rat... Fly alone much? If all you want is some more security, then shoot back. Ah, you could shoot back in low sec - CONCORD isn't going to show up at a belt or mission.... and the loot is better - maybe you would make a bit more money than you do now... Even better, I could make your high sec salvaging much more risky (since it's apparent you fly alone). I could fly alongside you, and take from your loot cans... Perfectly legal game mechanic - and I would keep taking the loot until you shot back at me... at which point all of your perceived safety would go right out the window... ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Agent Li Transparent attempt to hide the fact that I'm a supporter of griefing via salvage stealing. There, fixed that for ya. Invading someone's mission and salvaging their cans without their express consent is stealing and griefing. Those who genuinely just want salvage and are not seeking to cause other players grief either ask permission or wait until the mission runner moves on before they start salvaging. Period. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Agent Li Transparent attempt to hide the fact that I'm a supporter of griefing via salvage stealing. There, fixed that for ya. Invading someone's mission and salvaging their cans without their express consent is stealing and griefing. Those who genuinely just want salvage and are not seeking to cause other players grief either ask permission or wait until the mission runner moves on before they start salvaging. Apparently not, because scanning down mission runners and taking their stuff and attacking them is apparently a game mechanic. I want to salvage the ship you're driving. How am I supposed to salvage it while it's still flyable? Period. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Agent Li Transparent attempt to hide the fact that I'm a supporter of griefing via salvage stealing. There, fixed that for ya. Invading someone's mission and salvaging their cans without their express consent is stealing and griefing. Those who genuinely just want salvage and are not seeking to cause other players grief either ask permission or wait until the mission runner moves on before they start salvaging. Apparently not, because scanning down mission runners and taking their stuff and attacking them is apparently a game mechanic. I want to salvage the ship you're driving. How am I supposed to salvage it while it's still flyable? Period. Fail. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:05:00 - [25] Edited by: Sheykal on 10/01/2008 17:07:07 Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Li, this game covers alot more then just 0.0 space. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that. I live in low sec... Apparently you seem to believe that everything in the game should be free of risk, especially after you've spent a minimal effort to kill an NPC rat... Fly alone much? If all you want is some more security, then shoot back. Ah, you could shoot back in low sec - CONCORD isn't going to show up at a belt or mission.... and the loot is better - maybe you would make a bit more money than you do now... Even better, I could make your high sec salvaging much more risky (since it's apparent you fly alone). I could fly alongside you, and take from your loot cans... Perfectly legal game mechanic - and I would keep taking the loot until you shot back at me... at which point all of your perceived safety would go right out the window... Have you always harbored this much animosity towards players in .5 space and up? Fact is, your statement of nothing is free of risk is false, when it comes to salvaging in .5 space or up. This is why they take advantage of it. You can't defend a 'wreck' unless you want to be vaporized by concord.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Li, this game covers alot more then just 0.0 space. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that. I live in low sec... Apparently you seem to believe that everything in the game should be free of risk, especially after you've spent a minimal effort to kill an NPC rat... Fly alone much? If all you want is some more security, then shoot back. Ah, you could shoot back in low sec - CONCORD isn't going to show up at a belt or mission.... and the loot is better - maybe you would make a bit more money than you do now... Even better, I could make your high sec salvaging much more risky (since it's apparent you fly alone). I could fly alongside you, and take from your loot cans... Perfectly legal game mechanic - and I would keep taking the loot until you shot back at me... at which point all of your perceived safety would go right out the window... Have you always harbored this much animosity towards players in .5 space and up? Fact is, your statement of nothing is free of risk is false, when it comes to salvaging in .5 space or up, is false. This is why they take advantage of it. You can't defend a 'wreck' unless you want to be vaporized by concord. You can defend your loot if I take it. Any questions? After the fight, I would salvage your relatively unarmed salvager wreck, and salvage any wrecks you left behind... ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:11:00 - [28] Stealing is very "in" in Eve. In most cases you can steal and have no consequences. Wreck stealing is such a case. Steal away, no one will not do anything to you, it was designed that way
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:14:00 - [29] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:16:00 - [30] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Li, this game covers alot more then just 0.0 space. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that. I live in low sec... Apparently you seem to believe that everything in the game should be free of risk, especially after you've spent a minimal effort to kill an NPC rat... Fly alone much? If all you want is some more security, then shoot back. Ah, you could shoot back in low sec - CONCORD isn't going to show up at a belt or mission.... and the loot is better - maybe you would make a bit more money than you do now... Even better, I could make your high sec salvaging much more risky (since it's apparent you fly alone). I could fly alongside you, and take from your loot cans... Perfectly legal game mechanic - and I would keep taking the loot until you shot back at me... at which point all of your perceived safety would go right out the window... Have you always harbored this much animosity towards players in .5 space and up? Fact is, your statement of nothing is free of risk is false, when it comes to salvaging in .5 space or up, is false. This is why they take advantage of it. You can't defend a 'wreck' unless you want to be vaporized by concord. You can defend your loot if I take it. Any questions? After the fight, I would salvage your relatively unarmed salvager wreck, and salvage any wrecks you left behind... Loot.....I post a message regarding 'wreckage', and you come back with a response about loot. Probably a good idea that you stop posting since you can't stay on topic, and feel the need to give out threats.



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