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Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:17:00 - [31] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. Please enlighten us, where is this mentioned in the EULA/ToS? Oh and btw, griefing is not harassment.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. Odd how blowing up mission runners and taking their loot isn't getting petitioned. Yeah, if I did it to the same person, day in and day out, making their life a living hell, that's griefing... If I scan down mission runners in low sec, come down, take their loot and salvage their wrecks (and blow the mission runners up), that's not griefing. In high sec, CONCORD can show up - but the mission runner can still shoot at me if I take the loot (which I would, since their wreck will contain more loot and more salvage than most NPC wrecks). That's still not griefing. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:26:00 - [33] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. Please enlighten us, where is this mentioned in the EULA/ToS? You already agreed it's griefing, so here ya go. The fact that there's a contradiction between the statement "does not profit in any way" and the example of blowing up newbies (since you profit from their wrecks and cans) only serves to illustrate that it's the spirit of the "don't grief" rule that matters, not the particular verbiage. For example, suicide ganking causes immense grief, but is immensely profitable. Thus it's permitted. Ganking newbies causes them considerable grief, but is barely profitable. Thus it is not permitted. Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Oh and btw, griefing is not harassment. Irrelevant. Neither is permitted. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:26:00 - [34] Alright, another thread had posted that griefing newbies is a petitionable offense, so if this applies to all griefing then stop whining about the mechanic, just petition a GM and let them handle it... or not. If you seriously think you are being harassed, then please file a petition. But don't be surprised if the GM says to "get stuffed".
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. Odd how blowing up mission runners and taking their loot isn't getting petitioned. Yeah, if I did it to the same person, day in and day out, making their life a living hell, that's griefing... If I scan down mission runners in low sec, come down, take their loot and salvage their wrecks (and blow the mission runners up), that's not griefing. In high sec, CONCORD can show up - but the mission runner can still shoot at me if I take the loot (which I would, since their wreck will contain more loot and more salvage than most NPC wrecks). That's still not griefing. You're not worth of responding to. Stop trolling. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:29:00 - [36] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. Please enlighten us, where is this mentioned in the EULA/ToS? You already agreed it's griefing, so here ya go. The fact that there's a contradiction between the statement "does not profit in any way" and the example of blowing up newbies (since you profit from their wrecks and cans) only serves to illustrate that it's the spirit of the "don't grief" rule that matters, not the particular verbiage. For example, suicide ganking causes immense grief, but is immensely profitable. Thus it's permitted. Ganking newbies causes them considerable grief, but is barely profitable. Thus it is not permitted. Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Oh and btw, griefing is not harassment. Irrelevant. Neither is permitted. Well, by that logic then its not griefing if there is some gain for the interloper. So I retract my previous statement
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:43:00 - [37] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Well, by that logic then its not griefing if there is some gain for the interloper. So I retract my previous statement Petition what you consider griefing and just leave this to the GMs. Unless someone can ring the Wrangler Bell and have him clear this up. I've detected evidence of a severe reading comprehensions failure in your post. Please retry. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Jack Freely Caldari Trading Corp	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:45:00 - [38] Originally by: Sheykal I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Why does this game favor the antagonist, leaving other players absolutely powerless against them? Put a bounty on their heads you say....whatever. Thats like putting money in their pocket, since they would just have a friend pop them and split the bounty. 1. It takes me 10-20 mins to find your dead space 2. Wreaks don't belong to anyone, the loot inside belongs to you. 3. If you don't like it, fit up a frig and attack my salvage rigged ship , it you can't take a ship with 4 salvagers and 4 beams I feel sorry for you.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:46:00 - [39] Just remove flagging for loot theft. Problem goes away. Can flagging was introduced to stop ore theft, not loot theft. ---- Anything less is wasted effort
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Well, by that logic then its not griefing if there is some gain for the interloper. So I retract my previous statement Petition what you consider griefing and just leave this to the GMs. Unless someone can ring the Wrangler Bell and have him clear this up. I've detected evidence of a severe reading comprehensions failure in your post. Please retry. I don't agree with you that there is contradiction in that statement you referred to. It's not a lack of reading comprehension to disagree with you.

Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:52:00 - [41] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 10/01/2008 17:53:20 Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Well, by that logic then its not griefing if there is some gain for the interloper. So I retract my previous statement Petition what you consider griefing and just leave this to the GMs. Unless someone can ring the Wrangler Bell and have him clear this up. I've detected evidence of a severe reading comprehensions failure in your post. Please retry. I don't agree with you that there is contradiction in that statement you referred to. It's not a lack of reading comprehension to disagree with you. Quite the opposite actually: you would need to question your literacy and logic skills if Xaen's lolpinions about CCP's stance on griefing made any sense to you whatsoever. edit: I'm in another Salvage thread \o/ * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:52:00 - [42] Originally by: CCP Atropos Originally by: DigitalCommunist You can do whatever you want to anyone you want, anywhere you want. The only time you're breaking any rules is if you escape from CONCORD without losing your ship. I don't understand how much more simple it can be. Pretty much. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Spaceman Jack	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:52:00 - [43] Agreed If EVE is really harsh and meant to be played with blls, then as soon as you touch someone else's stuff you should be killable on sight, no matter where you are. Makes NO DAMN SENSE* to let people steal from you with no consequences.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain I don't agree with you that there is contradiction in that statement you referred to. It's not a matter of agreement. It exists whether or not you agree that it does. Originally by: CCP An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated. Can baiting, then grabbing the salvage and loot results in profit. This contradicts this statement: Originally by: CCP A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Yet it is most definitely still griefing. Thus whether or not an action is considered griefing is up to the GMs, documented specific cases cannot and do not cover all forms of griefing. If you need it to be spelled out for you for each specific case, expect to get warned, suspended, or banned. Originally by: Kuar Z'thain It's not a lack of reading comprehension to disagree with you. Duh. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Jack Freely Caldari Trading Corp	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:58:00 - [45] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain This is an intended game mechanic. If you don't like it hire a salvager to follow you around while you run missions. My salvager can use shield, armor and energy repair systems so I can not only salvage but also keep the tank up and running.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:02:00 - [46] It's never griefing. Especially not in a case where the activity gives you a gain and someone else a loss. But really, you should be able to shoot people who touch your stuff, even if the association between you and said stuff is a tenuous one. - DesuSigs
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:22:00 - [47] This is a rubbish thread about, well rubbish. The whole concept of the salvage profession is centerd upon the reclamation of trash, debris. Salvagers are like carrion birds, picking of the last morsels from a kill regardless of wether the big game cat likes it or not. So if you're a Big Game Cat mission runner, and you really really want that carcass then you had better get to it first. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Max Nero Endless Fury	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:25:00 - [48] Originally by: Spaceman Jack Agreed If EVE is really harsh and meant to be played with blls, then as soon as you touch someone else's stuff you should be killable on sight, no matter where you are. Makes NO DAMN SENSE* to let people steal from you with no consequences. It is not stealing if salvage inside the wreck does not belong to you in the first place. Originally by: Niklo Game to become is more and more similar to prison for not aggressive people.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:55:00 - [49] Originally by: Sheykal I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Why does this game favor the antagonist, leaving other players absolutely powerless against them? Put a bounty on their heads you say....whatever. Thats like putting money in their pocket, since they would just have a friend pop them and split the bounty. I'm sure some are thinking, hey Eve is not a friendly universe. That's fine. But make it equally unfriendly. Wreckage is money to a salvager. So as far as i'm concerned its just as bad as them taking loot, and often times worse cause that wreckage yields more isk. Intended behavior, if you have any doubt, here is a quote from PrismX: Quote: If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former. You can read the thread HERE Simply, Salvaging is a mini-profession, it is not a mission runner's entitlement program. If you have problems with people salvaging your junk laying around move to a less populated system. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:57:00 - [50] Originally by: Spaceman Jack Agreed If EVE is really harsh and meant to be played with blls, then as soon as you touch someone else's stuff you should be killable on sight, no matter where you are. Makes NO DAMN SENSE* to let people steal from you with no consequences. Miners used to jettison their ore into a can in space. This ore was then 'stolen' by passing players - despite the fact that if I threw my wallet across the street and someone ran off with it, Id be labled an idiot. Nevertheless their was much wailing and nashing of teeth, and so CCP made looting a can and agrro inducing theft. Mission runners wanted to run their missions in safety, without fear of attack. Concord was put in place to enforce the rules in high sec. Players, fearing they wouldnt / couldnt reach their loot before some nabbed it were given agrro rights on this aswell. This is despite the fact that said loot was just floating about in space, and until it was in a cargo hold really didnt 'belong' to anyone at all. Now we have wrecks. A chance for the enterprising individual to scoop up the left overs. But oooh noo! The high sec mission runners aren't getting absolutely everything they want. So how about we compromise? You can have aggro rights on salvage, as long as you can be attacked in a mission space in high sec? After all - your robbing stuff of the npcs, so it only seems fair . C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.

Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:03:00 - [51] Originally by: Cailais Series of straw man arguments Bunk. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:08:00 - [52] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Cailais Series of straw man arguments Bunk. Nice troll. Unfortunately your detailed, erudite, reasoned response full of carefully considered and logical argument consisted of a highly edited (and may I say rather cliche quote) and only one word. On that basis, I think I'll claim the field Sir. Better luck next time C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:15:00 - [53] Originally by: Xaen [ Originally by: CCP A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Yet it is most definitely still griefing. Thus whether or not an action is considered griefing is up to the GMs, documented specific cases cannot and do not cover all forms of griefing. If you need it to be spelled out for you for each specific case, expect to get warned, suspended, or banned. What? You quote CCP's defenition of griefing, and then you say "but they're wrong because this is so griefing, and you still think you have a good argument?
Xavianum	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:36:00 - [54] A wreck belongs to no one and has no value. I will say it again, a wreck belongs to no one and has no value. Is that clear enough? How is it griefing to salvage/attack/whatever something with no value? A wreck does not contain something of value. Rather, the act of salvaging creates items of value. In this regard, "stealing" a wreck is much more akin to "stealing" a rat kill, no? The act of salvaging, which not everyone does, creates the loot. To all of the people that complain about how salvaging a mission is worth more than the reward, I ask you, why not salvage other peoples' missions? If someone takes the time to scan out your mission site, then I say they are entitled to the trash therein, regardless of what you planned to do with said trash.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.01.10 20:48:00 - [55] Originally by: Xavianum A wreck belongs to no one and has no value. I will say it again, a wreck belongs to no one and has no value. Is that clear enough? How is it griefing to salvage/attack/whatever something with no value? A wreck does not contain something of value. Rather, the act of salvaging creates items of value. In this regard, "stealing" a wreck is much more akin to "stealing" a rat kill, no? The act of salvaging, which not everyone does, creates the loot. To all of the people that complain about how salvaging a mission is worth more than the reward, I ask you, why not salvage other peoples' missions? If someone takes the time to scan out your mission site, then I say they are entitled to the trash therein, regardless of what you planned to do with said trash. Agree with the general reasoning completely, but I have to nitpick some of your specifics. A wreck has no intrinsic value, but it always belongs to somebody and it may contain something of value--lewtz. Otherwise though, nicely stated. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:17:00 - [56] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Cailais Series of straw man arguments Bunk. Nice troll. Unfortunately your detailed, erudite, reasoned response full of carefully considered and logical argument consisted of a highly edited (and may I say rather cliche quote) and only one word. On that basis, I think I'll claim the field Sir. Better luck next time C. Wordy != better. Fail. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:22:00 - [57] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Xaen [ Originally by: CCP A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Yet it is most definitely still griefing. Thus whether or not an action is considered griefing is up to the GMs, documented specific cases cannot and do not cover all forms of griefing. If you need it to be spelled out for you for each specific case, expect to get warned, suspended, or banned. What? You quote CCP's defenition of griefing, and then you say "but they're wrong because this is so griefing, and you still think you have a good argument? I didn't quote their example just for the fun of it. It was to make a specific point. Which you missed. In brief, what the GMs say is griefing is griefing, it doesn't have to be specifically outlined legalese for them to declare it griefing and punish you accordingly. Think otherwise to your own detriment. Quoting EULA and TOS in a bible thumping fashion, or citing precedent doesn't make you right. The game changes, and will continue to change. Just because it was written down once doesn't mean you should stop thinking. Or that nothing should ever be changed again. See the Zulupark fiasco if you require an example. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:38:00 - [58] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 10/01/2008 21:37:59 Originally by: Xaen Quoting EULA and TOS in a bible thumping fashion, or citing precedent doesn't make you right. Well it at least puts you a few notches ahead of people who just quote those things and then say "...but never mind all that crap, JUST LISTEN TO XAEN." So, any luck with your salvage griefing petitions? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:45:00 - [59] "A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way". Erm...Xaen, how does salvaging others wrecks constitute griefing when a player can sell the salvage for ISK? C. Oh, and ref your amusing "=! / Fail" - internet memes ftl C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:52:00 - [60] Originally by: Xaen That sound you hear is my point flying over your head. I reiterated once already. Not doing it again. So, your point, elegantly disguised, was that we shouldn't take what CCP has written in the EULA or TOS as granted, and instead we should let the GM's make the decisions? Is that right? Then I would like to pose you the question: Have you ever had a petition about someone 'stealing' your wrecks answered with a positive outcome for you?



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