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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:58:00 -
[61]
Salvage rights are granted by the owner of a ship, not by the person blowing it up.
If you can prove that the captain of the vessel which you destroyed would have given those rights to you, rather than the salvager, take your evidence to Concord.
Otherwise, stop moaning that your victims would rather a third party attempted to provide salvage services than you. What do you expect?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Xaen
Caldari
Black Podding
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:21:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Xaen
That sound you hear is my point flying over your head. I reiterated once already. Not doing it again.
So, your point, elegantly disguised, was that we shouldn't take what CCP has written in the EULA or TOS as granted, and instead we should let the GM's make the decisions? Is that right?
Close. You shouldn't read it word for word and treat all specific things it prohibits as a violation, and all else to be allowed.
Originally by: Ki An
Then I would like to pose you the question: Have you ever had a petition about someone 'stealing' your wrecks answered with a positive outcome for you?
I've never filed such a petition. You?
I'm merely arguing from a philosophical standpoint. 
It doesn't have to personally affect me to object on principal.
I objected just as strongly to the carrier nerf in Zulupark's blog and I can't fly one and have no plans to.
--
Support fixing the EVE UI | Suggest Jita fixes |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:43:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Ki An
Then I would like to pose you the question: Have you ever had a petition about someone 'stealing' your wrecks answered with a positive outcome for you?
I've never filed such a petition. You?
I'm merely arguing from a philosophical standpoint.
It doesn't have to personally affect me to object on principal.
I objected just as strongly to the carrier nerf in Zulupark's blog and I can't fly one and have no plans to.
You are arguing for the sake of arguing, and you're not even doing a good job of it. You have never filed such a petition, thus you have absolutely NO idea what CCP's stand on this is UNLESS you go by what is in the EULA and TOS. Thus, you have absolutely no point at all.
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Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:54:00 -
[64]
CCP stand lacks any logic in this. Wrecks are a byproduct of someone else's hard work (or not hard, but without the mission runner, there would be no wrecks at all). No one says that you should not be able to touch them, but there should be consequences and risk in doing so.
Apparently that is such a big issue, because mission loot just utterly and hopelessly sucks in 95% of cases. Salvage can often be worth as much the whole mission reward+bounties. If you worked to actually create those wrecks, salvaging them is another form of reward for dong a mission. If you exploiting another person work, you should bear with the consequences, which should be flagging and possible destruction of your ship. I can not call an adequate effort completing the mission on one hand and scanning a mission space and just collecting the rewards on the other hand.
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Oldin Kinrod
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Posted - 2008.01.11 00:06:00 -
[65]
I'll make this easy for everyone - see the thread in my sig. Everything has been said before. This is an intended game mechanic, and as so stated by the Devs will not be changed any time soon. Welcome to the collection of "light reading" on Eve, Wrecks, Mission Probing and You.
Enjoy.
People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions? |
Malcanis
5 finger discounteers
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Posted - 2008.01.11 00:45:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Sheykal
I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Why does this game favor the antagonist, leaving other players absolutely powerless against them? Put a bounty on their heads you say....whatever. Thats like putting money in their pocket, since they would just have a friend pop them and split the bounty.
I'm sure some are thinking, hey Eve is not a friendly universe. That's fine. But make it equally unfriendly. Wreckage is money to a salvager. So as far as i'm concerned its just as bad as them taking loot, and often times worse cause that wreckage yields more isk.
"Powerless"?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente
Cheers Restaurant and Bar
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2008.01.11 02:35:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Sheykal
I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose.
Because this is a multiplayer PvP game where confrontations are not always consentual.
Is there anything else I can help you with?
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente
Cheers Restaurant and Bar
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2008.01.11 02:38:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Xaen
Period.
Get a tampon.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente
Cheers Restaurant and Bar
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2008.01.11 02:45:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 11/01/2008 02:44:54
No salvage exists until a salvage module is used on the wreck. The salvage is created in the cargo hold of the owner. It is no more stealing than setting your Miner module on a asteroid somebody else is also mining. The exact same thing happens: new stuff that wasn't there before is created in the cargo hold of the player using the module.
End of story.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Siriyana
Astrum Contract Services Group
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Posted - 2008.01.11 03:06:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Ki An
3. If salvaging would flag the salvager, in six months you would have a thread a day about some carebear losing his CNR after attacking a salvager.
Pick one.
You mean six minutes, right? Not six months?
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CEO, Astrum Contract Services Group
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Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
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Posted - 2008.01.11 07:55:00 -
[71]
Simple solution - buff mission rewards, ppl would stop caring about losing wrecks. And don't tell me mission rewards are already high, missions are being constantly nerfed for the past 2.5 years.
Ppl who compare the wrecks to the asteroid belts really have to get a clue. This would be the same if those belts would appear because of something you did, right now they are lying there regardless of whatever you do to them or just ignore them completely. It has no similarities whatsoever with missions.
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Davos Breemer
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Posted - 2008.01.11 08:19:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Jack Freely
3. If you don't like it, fit up a frig and attack my salvage rigged ship  , it you can't take a ship with 4 salvagers and 4 beams I feel sorry for you.
I would if I wouldn't get vaporised by CONCORD for doing so. This is the complaint - wreckage can be salvaged by anybody in high-sec without consequence because the people who do try to defend their wrecks will be shot by CONCORD. Do you understand this now?
I wouldn't need to get a frig to do it in either as my salvager is armed.
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Ursula LeGuinn
Versus Gloria Omnis
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Posted - 2008.01.11 08:35:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn on 11/01/2008 08:35:52
Originally by: Estephania
...and scanning a mission space and just collecting the rewards on the other hand.
Locating a mission runner and salvaging/looting his wrecks takes time, effort and some skill, which isn't much different from the time and effort involved in actually running the mission.
The reward for finding a mission runner is the opportunity to take some of their stuff.
True, there's no real risk involved in it for the pirate. But then, there's no real risk involved in it for the mission runner, either. He can loot and salvage as much as possible before the pirate gets it, and start a new mission.
And of course, if it's in lowsec, the mission runner might flee, complete (or fail) the mission (deadspace pocket vanishes), and be back two minutes later with an Interceptor to pin the pirate down until his pals come to pod him.
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Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Ama-gi
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:26:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 11/01/2008 11:32:05
This is an interesting thread about an interesting point.
I live in low sec because I like the freedom to do things that I want. This means, of course, that I like the concept of aggro. I can't say that I buy into the fact that because I kill a npc pirate that I automatically should own the wreck.. but , I should have the right to shoot anyone that tries to come in and take it out from under my nose. So I'm for the aggro. It allows more pvp in high sec. I don't think it will kill salvaging as a career. It would not make rigs more expensive. It would alter gameplay so that the career some people have chosen will change. Sucks to be those people, but playing Eve is about adapting. And ppl would adapt and would still take your stuff.
That being said, aggro won't make the op happy. he's obviously far too carebearish to enjoy being shot at by well-prepared salvage thieves :) imagine someone finding you in your mission and warping in while you are still being engaged by many hostile npcs. they start salvaging your loot. sure, you could open fire on them but then they could very possibly break your tank, destroy, loot and salvage your wreck along with the npc wrecks... w
which makes me think of another interesting question... what if someone finds you missioning, and starts shooting your npc rats... those cans belong now to the interloper (not to mention the 'stolen' bounty). so do you want to make shooting your npc rats an aggro-able offense as well? and if so can a 'living' npc pirate really 'belong' to you? how far does it go?
/emote shrug.
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No love for the Matari |
Dr Qu
Caldari
Gone Viking
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:55:00 -
[75]
I have to say that I agree with the op. EVE is a game that lets you fly alone or fly with a friend or several friends. Bottomline is that if I want to fly alone, it should be my right and my choice to do so.
When I fly alone, I do missions. When I do missions, I do them to earn ISK. I spend the time doing the mission, and afterwards I consider it my right to have full access to the loot field afterwards. I consider the loot to be mine, and I consider the salvage to be mine. As such, and I have petitioned for it and will continue to petition for it, I agree fully that wrecks should be protected in all the same manner that loot cans are.
I didnt spend that time sitting in my ship doing a mission so that some ****** in a newbie frigate can waltz in and take my salvage. I do not pay and play so that some ****** can earn isk without any risk and effort what so ever. For no cost at all.
In all honesty, I much prefer the ability to defend my loot field (salvage and loot included) and see the chance for some PVP if the little turd that likes to cruise around in his or her newbie frigate cares to bring out his fighting ship once his salvage frig has been vaporized.
After all, is that not what all you usual trolls advocate? EVE is a PVP game? THEN GIVE US THE ABILITY TO PVP THOSE BASTARDS!
Its fun to read though, at times, and see the usual trolls defend the ability to open PVP in high sec in one thread, but in another thread toot the horn that all is well, instead of getting on the bandwagon when an option for even more PVP content is suggested.
Get on the program, trollies. Support criminal flagging on salvagable wrecks! The result can be nothing more then more PVP. And EVE is PVP right?
I have a suggestion though. It has some risk to it, but in the end it might actually get those annoying little salvage thieves into their own mission ships so they can slave away like we mission runners do. And that is to start popping your wrecks after they appear. Leave nothing for the thieves to take. Do that for a month. Should be interesting to see the results.
:: "In hullintegrity we trust" :: |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:03:00 -
[76]
Dr Qu, you fail extremely hard, so I'll take the time to point out where.
Originally by: Dr Qu
I have to say that I agree with the op. EVE is a game that lets you fly alone or fly with a friend or several friends. Bottomline is that if I want to fly alone, it should be my right and my choice to do so.
Who's stopping you from flying alone? Noone, that's who. You can fly alone all you want as long as you accept the fact that people who don't fly alone have an advantage over you in almost every situation.
Originally by: Dr Qu
When I fly alone, I do missions. When I do missions, I do them to earn ISK. I spend the time doing the mission, and afterwards I consider it my right to have full access to the loot field afterwards. I consider the loot to be mine, and I consider the salvage to be mine. As such, and I have petitioned for it and will continue to petition for it, I agree fully that wrecks should be protected in all the same manner that loot cans are.
You consider it your right? That's like me saying I consider it my right that your ship pops when I point my mouse cursor at it. It's not part of the game, and it doesn't matter how much you want it to be. Also, tying up GM time with useless petitions is ftl!
Originally by: Dr Qu
I didnt spend that time sitting in my ship doing a mission so that some ****** in a newbie frigate can waltz in and take my salvage. I do not pay and play so that some ****** can earn isk without any risk and effort what so ever. For no cost at all.
Fail. The '****** in a newbie frigate' has spent untold amounts of time scanning down your mission, wasting a lot of probes to do so. There goes the 'no effort' and 'no cost' right out the window. When it comes to risk, the ninja-salvager runs as much risk as you do.
Originally by: Dr Qu
In all honesty, I much prefer the ability to defend my loot field (salvage and loot included) and see the chance for some PVP if the little turd that likes to cruise around in his or her newbie frigate cares to bring out his fighting ship once his salvage frig has been vaporized.
Yeah, you want to pvp newbie salvagers in n00b ships, but imagine if this change would happen. The first time you lose your precious CNR for aggroing a salvager in a n00b ship who then came back in a BS. Imagine how much you would cry. Imagine how much we'd laugh at you.
Originally by: Dr Qu
After all, is that not what all you usual trolls advocate? EVE is a PVP game? THEN GIVE US THE ABILITY TO PVP THOSE BASTARDS!
Linkage
Originally by: Dr Qu
Its fun to read though, at times, and see the usual trolls defend the ability to open PVP in high sec in one thread, but in another thread toot the horn that all is well, instead of getting on the bandwagon when an option for even more PVP content is suggested.
It might be because the 'usual trolls' are capable of thinking more than one step ahead.
Originally by: Dr Qu
Get on the program, trollies. Support criminal flagging on salvagable wrecks! The result can be nothing more then more PVP. And EVE is PVP right?
You don't get to say that. You're a carebear and you should talk about mining and stuff.
Originally by: Dr Qu
I have a suggestion though. It has some risk to it, but in the end it might actually get those annoying little salvage thieves into their own mission ships so they can slave away like we mission runners do. And that is to start popping your wrecks after they appear. Leave nothing for the thieves to take. Do that for a month. Should be interesting to see the results.
Wow, you mission runners have it hard for sure. Tell you what, since you're so in to this whole "Eve is PvP" concept, why don't we get CCP to put all lvl 4's in low sec and 0.0? That should sate your appetite for PvP.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Do Or Die And Live Or Try
The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:52:00 -
[77]
If I mine an asteroid in the same belt as you, am I stealing your ore?
There is no salvage in wrecks. It is mined with the salvager. So what am I stealing? Nothing, I'm creating.
Kind people will ask, if you want to mine these roids or if its ok to mine themselves. So it is with wrecks.
Problem is, there isn't many kind people in EvE.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2008.01.11 14:11:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Dr Qu
Get on the program, trollies. Support criminal flagging on salvagable wrecks! The result can be nothing more then more PVP. And EVE is PVP right?
No, the result will be more full-time mission running because it has become more profitable. Meanwhile rigs will go up in price because supply of components has been reduced.
If flagging was removed for loot of any kind other than jetcans then more people would seek their fortunes in lowsec which would mean more pvp.
----
Anything less is wasted effort |
Zaskarr
Amarr
Falling Stars Squadron
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Posted - 2008.01.11 14:17:00 -
[79]
All your wrecks are belong to me! 
Srsly any wrecks with no hostiles around = salvage tiem!
__________________
How do I shot web? |
SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:10:00 -
[80]
you dont own wrecks
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
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