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Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 15:52:00 - [1] I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Why does this game favor the antagonist, leaving other players absolutely powerless against them? Put a bounty on their heads you say....whatever. Thats like putting money in their pocket, since they would just have a friend pop them and split the bounty. I'm sure some are thinking, hey Eve is not a friendly universe. That's fine. But make it equally unfriendly. Wreckage is money to a salvager. So as far as i'm concerned its just as bad as them taking loot, and often times worse cause that wreckage yields more isk.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.01.10 15:55:00 - [2] 1. A wreck is space junk. It doesn't belong to anyone. The items in the wreck on the other hand, does. 2. If salvaging would flag the salvager, you would kill a profession. 3. If salvaging would flag the salvager, in six months you would have a thread a day about some carebear losing his CNR after attacking a salvager. Pick one.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:01:00 - [3] 4. If salvaging flagged the salvager rigs would cost more. ---- Anything less is wasted effort
Trof Gallente Griffin Inc. Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:03:00 - [4] Edited by: Trof on 10/01/2008 16:03:38 I think it is really only a problem in populated systems. I mine in low populated low sec systems, rarely is there a problem with others salvaging my wrecks. Most players that come into the system are either pirates who ignore anything that is already dead or other miners. Sometimes a ratter/salvager will come into the system, generally they ask first if they can salvage your wrecks. I know it is not like that everywhere but this has been my experience. Free your Mind! Acknowledge and Move On!
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:04:00 - [5] Originally by: Ki An 3. If salvaging would flag the salvager, in six months you would have a thread a day about some carebear losing his CNR after attacking a salvager. I pick this one.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:04:00 - [6] If salvaging someone else's wreck got the aggro flag, then people would intentionally do it to get you to shoot at them, and then they would blow your ship up, and salvage the original wreck plus your ship. A lot of salvagers are flying around in minimally armed ships loaded with tractor beams and salvage beams. They would be easy, easy kills. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:11:00 - [7] I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:26:00 - [8] Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. No, if you're going to fix it, the fix must be just like cans. Aggro flags - otherwise, it's a WoW-like solution... ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:26:00 - [9] This is an intended game mechanic. If you don't like it hire a salvager to follow you around while you run missions. Or better yet, join a corp and have a corpmate run with you. Whining will not get this changed, the devs have stated time and time again that this is what they want.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain This is an intended game mechanic. If you don't like it hire a salvager to follow you around while you run missions. Or better yet, join a corp and have a corpmate run with you. Whining will not get this changed, the devs have stated time and time again that this is what they want. No, we should find where the OP is salvaging, and steal his loot and salvage his wrecks. Once he opens fire on us, we can blow his ship up and loot and salvage that. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Willow Whisp Sadist Faction	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Sheykal It has value, which is why loot is protected. "Loot" is not protected because it has value. Loot is protected, because back when there were no agression rights on jetisson containment fields, the pod pilot mining corporations united in a massive campaign to protect their jetisson containment fields to be tagged by concord so they could "defend their property against ore thieves". This is what got us the current mechanic of "Jetisson containment field agression flags". Not because they had value, but because the industrial corporations at the time engaged in massive whining about them using an unintended game mechanic to mine faster than what was originally intended. Fast forward to today, and "Ore theft" still happens, except now the ore thief has the happy advantage of being able to not only take the loot, but also kill the mining barge. Be careful what you ask for. -- Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes ^^ Woo hoo! Yellow Text!... wait... :(
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:35:00 - [12] Here we go again. Yes, wrecks are space junk, but that junk is worth more than your mission. Funny, isn't it? Example: I'm doing a lvl 4 mission, bounties and loot and mission reward plus bonus equal around 10 mill ISK. How much was worth the space junk after I salvaged and sold it? 12 mill ISK. Expensive junk we have here.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:37:00 - [13] Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. Cause everybody salvages loot within 10 minutes. They never finish killing the other rats in the room. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:37:00 - [14] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. No, if you're going to fix it, the fix must be just like cans. Aggro flags - otherwise, it's a WoW-like solution... You're contradicting your prior post Li, if you see aggro flags as a 'fix'. And why is it that to express your opinion on a game dynamic is labeled as a 'whine' when it differs from your opinion...
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar The Smithzonian Institute	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:40:00 - [15] Originally by: Sheykal I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Why does this game favor the antagonist, leaving other players absolutely powerless against them? Put a bounty on their heads you say....whatever. Thats like putting money in their pocket, since they would just have a friend pop them and split the bounty. I'm sure some are thinking, hey Eve is not a friendly universe. That's fine. But make it equally unfriendly. Wreckage is money to a salvager. So as far as i'm concerned its just as bad as them taking loot, and often times worse cause that wreckage yields more isk. OMG, use the fracking search.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. No, if you're going to fix it, the fix must be just like cans. Aggro flags - otherwise, it's a WoW-like solution... You're contradicting your prior post Li, if you see aggro flags as a 'fix'. And why is it that to express your opinion on a game dynamic is labeled as a 'whine' when it differs from your opinion... I don't see aggro flags as a fix - I don't think a fix is needed - but if you want a fix, then it should be aggro flags. Treat the wrecks just like loot if you want a fix - we could make the same argument... You have to understand that nothing in Eve was meant to be free, or free from risk. Just because you finished shooting some NPC rats and can now mine/loot/salvage doesn't mean your job is done - you have to defend the stuff until you get it to the station - anywhere along the line, someone can come and blow you up and take it. This isn't WoW... ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Sheykal snip And why is it that to express your opinion on a game dynamic is labeled as a 'whine' when it differs from your opinion... When you can't be bothered to properly search the forums and post in one of the other hundreds of thread already created on this subject, then yes, it is automatically a whine.
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. No, if you're going to fix it, the fix must be just like cans. Aggro flags - otherwise, it's a WoW-like solution... You're contradicting your prior post Li, if you see aggro flags as a 'fix'. And why is it that to express your opinion on a game dynamic is labeled as a 'whine' when it differs from your opinion... I don't see aggro flags as a fix - I don't think a fix is needed - but if you want a fix, then it should be aggro flags. Treat the wrecks just like loot if you want a fix - we could make the same argument... You have to understand that nothing in Eve was meant to be free, or free from risk. Just because you finished shooting some NPC rats and can now mine/loot/salvage doesn't mean your job is done - you have to defend the stuff until you get it to the station - anywhere along the line, someone can come and blow you up and take it. This isn't WoW... You do realize that the player that jumps on your newly made wreck, is in fact free from risk. Nice try though.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal I would agree with your number 1 reason, if it was just that, junk. But its not anymore. It has value, which is why loot is protected. And you can solve this without having to flag a salvager. You simply make wreckage unsalvagable to players other then the one that created it, but only for 10 minutes or so, in which time it would be 'released' for public salvage. A simple bloody solution and you solve the frustrating problem of people salvaging every kill you make, before you can even work on it. No, if you're going to fix it, the fix must be just like cans. Aggro flags - otherwise, it's a WoW-like solution... You're contradicting your prior post Li, if you see aggro flags as a 'fix'. And why is it that to express your opinion on a game dynamic is labeled as a 'whine' when it differs from your opinion... I don't see aggro flags as a fix - I don't think a fix is needed - but if you want a fix, then it should be aggro flags. Treat the wrecks just like loot if you want a fix - we could make the same argument... You have to understand that nothing in Eve was meant to be free, or free from risk. Just because you finished shooting some NPC rats and can now mine/loot/salvage doesn't mean your job is done - you have to defend the stuff until you get it to the station - anywhere along the line, someone can come and blow you up and take it. This isn't WoW... You do realize that the player that jumps on your newly made wreck, is in fact free from risk. Nice try though. No, they're not. Why don't you shoot them? Or are you living in high sec, where the salvage sucks? ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:51:00 - [20] Edited by: Sheykal on 10/01/2008 16:52:03 Li, this game covers alot more then just low sec space. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Sheykal Li, this game covers alot more then just 0.0 space. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that. I live in low sec... Apparently you seem to believe that everything in the game should be free of risk, especially after you've spent a minimal effort to kill an NPC rat... Fly alone much? If all you want is some more security, then shoot back. Ah, you could shoot back in low sec - CONCORD isn't going to show up at a belt or mission.... and the loot is better - maybe you would make a bit more money than you do now... Even better, I could make your high sec salvaging much more risky (since it's apparent you fly alone). I could fly alongside you, and take from your loot cans... Perfectly legal game mechanic - and I would keep taking the loot until you shot back at me... at which point all of your perceived safety would go right out the window... ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Agent Li Transparent attempt to hide the fact that I'm a supporter of griefing via salvage stealing. There, fixed that for ya. Invading someone's mission and salvaging their cans without their express consent is stealing and griefing. Those who genuinely just want salvage and are not seeking to cause other players grief either ask permission or wait until the mission runner moves on before they start salvaging. Period. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Agent Li Transparent attempt to hide the fact that I'm a supporter of griefing via salvage stealing. There, fixed that for ya. Invading someone's mission and salvaging their cans without their express consent is stealing and griefing. Those who genuinely just want salvage and are not seeking to cause other players grief either ask permission or wait until the mission runner moves on before they start salvaging. Apparently not, because scanning down mission runners and taking their stuff and attacking them is apparently a game mechanic. I want to salvage the ship you're driving. How am I supposed to salvage it while it's still flyable? Period. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Agent Li Transparent attempt to hide the fact that I'm a supporter of griefing via salvage stealing. There, fixed that for ya. Invading someone's mission and salvaging their cans without their express consent is stealing and griefing. Those who genuinely just want salvage and are not seeking to cause other players grief either ask permission or wait until the mission runner moves on before they start salvaging. Apparently not, because scanning down mission runners and taking their stuff and attacking them is apparently a game mechanic. I want to salvage the ship you're driving. How am I supposed to salvage it while it's still flyable? Period. Fail. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:05:00 - [25] Edited by: Sheykal on 10/01/2008 17:07:07 Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Li, this game covers alot more then just 0.0 space. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that. I live in low sec... Apparently you seem to believe that everything in the game should be free of risk, especially after you've spent a minimal effort to kill an NPC rat... Fly alone much? If all you want is some more security, then shoot back. Ah, you could shoot back in low sec - CONCORD isn't going to show up at a belt or mission.... and the loot is better - maybe you would make a bit more money than you do now... Even better, I could make your high sec salvaging much more risky (since it's apparent you fly alone). I could fly alongside you, and take from your loot cans... Perfectly legal game mechanic - and I would keep taking the loot until you shot back at me... at which point all of your perceived safety would go right out the window... Have you always harbored this much animosity towards players in .5 space and up? Fact is, your statement of nothing is free of risk is false, when it comes to salvaging in .5 space or up. This is why they take advantage of it. You can't defend a 'wreck' unless you want to be vaporized by concord.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Li, this game covers alot more then just 0.0 space. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that. I live in low sec... Apparently you seem to believe that everything in the game should be free of risk, especially after you've spent a minimal effort to kill an NPC rat... Fly alone much? If all you want is some more security, then shoot back. Ah, you could shoot back in low sec - CONCORD isn't going to show up at a belt or mission.... and the loot is better - maybe you would make a bit more money than you do now... Even better, I could make your high sec salvaging much more risky (since it's apparent you fly alone). I could fly alongside you, and take from your loot cans... Perfectly legal game mechanic - and I would keep taking the loot until you shot back at me... at which point all of your perceived safety would go right out the window... Have you always harbored this much animosity towards players in .5 space and up? Fact is, your statement of nothing is free of risk is false, when it comes to salvaging in .5 space or up, is false. This is why they take advantage of it. You can't defend a 'wreck' unless you want to be vaporized by concord. You can defend your loot if I take it. Any questions? After the fight, I would salvage your relatively unarmed salvager wreck, and salvage any wrecks you left behind... ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:11:00 - [28] Stealing is very "in" in Eve. In most cases you can steal and have no consequences. Wreck stealing is such a case. Steal away, no one will not do anything to you, it was designed that way
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:14:00 - [29] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Sheykal	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:16:00 - [30] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Sheykal Li, this game covers alot more then just 0.0 space. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that. I live in low sec... Apparently you seem to believe that everything in the game should be free of risk, especially after you've spent a minimal effort to kill an NPC rat... Fly alone much? If all you want is some more security, then shoot back. Ah, you could shoot back in low sec - CONCORD isn't going to show up at a belt or mission.... and the loot is better - maybe you would make a bit more money than you do now... Even better, I could make your high sec salvaging much more risky (since it's apparent you fly alone). I could fly alongside you, and take from your loot cans... Perfectly legal game mechanic - and I would keep taking the loot until you shot back at me... at which point all of your perceived safety would go right out the window... Have you always harbored this much animosity towards players in .5 space and up? Fact is, your statement of nothing is free of risk is false, when it comes to salvaging in .5 space or up, is false. This is why they take advantage of it. You can't defend a 'wreck' unless you want to be vaporized by concord. You can defend your loot if I take it. Any questions? After the fight, I would salvage your relatively unarmed salvager wreck, and salvage any wrecks you left behind... Loot.....I post a message regarding 'wreckage', and you come back with a response about loot. Probably a good idea that you stop posting since you can't stay on topic, and feel the need to give out threats.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:17:00 - [31] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. Please enlighten us, where is this mentioned in the EULA/ToS? Oh and btw, griefing is not harassment.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. Odd how blowing up mission runners and taking their loot isn't getting petitioned. Yeah, if I did it to the same person, day in and day out, making their life a living hell, that's griefing... If I scan down mission runners in low sec, come down, take their loot and salvage their wrecks (and blow the mission runners up), that's not griefing. In high sec, CONCORD can show up - but the mission runner can still shoot at me if I take the loot (which I would, since their wreck will contain more loot and more salvage than most NPC wrecks). That's still not griefing. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:26:00 - [33] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. Please enlighten us, where is this mentioned in the EULA/ToS? You already agreed it's griefing, so here ya go. The fact that there's a contradiction between the statement "does not profit in any way" and the example of blowing up newbies (since you profit from their wrecks and cans) only serves to illustrate that it's the spirit of the "don't grief" rule that matters, not the particular verbiage. For example, suicide ganking causes immense grief, but is immensely profitable. Thus it's permitted. Ganking newbies causes them considerable grief, but is barely profitable. Thus it is not permitted. Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Oh and btw, griefing is not harassment. Irrelevant. Neither is permitted. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:26:00 - [34] Alright, another thread had posted that griefing newbies is a petitionable offense, so if this applies to all griefing then stop whining about the mechanic, just petition a GM and let them handle it... or not. If you seriously think you are being harassed, then please file a petition. But don't be surprised if the GM says to "get stuffed".
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. Odd how blowing up mission runners and taking their loot isn't getting petitioned. Yeah, if I did it to the same person, day in and day out, making their life a living hell, that's griefing... If I scan down mission runners in low sec, come down, take their loot and salvage their wrecks (and blow the mission runners up), that's not griefing. In high sec, CONCORD can show up - but the mission runner can still shoot at me if I take the loot (which I would, since their wreck will contain more loot and more salvage than most NPC wrecks). That's still not griefing. You're not worth of responding to. Stop trolling. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:29:00 - [36] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen BIG WORDS!! No one said it wasn't stealing or griefing. What we're trying to say is that it is an intended game mechanic and that you should deal with it in that manner, not try to treat it as an exploit or bug. If we agree it's griefing, then it's petitionable (as griefing is expressly forbidden). If it's petitionable, the ToS violator is subject to punishment and should cease or be banned. Please enlighten us, where is this mentioned in the EULA/ToS? You already agreed it's griefing, so here ya go. The fact that there's a contradiction between the statement "does not profit in any way" and the example of blowing up newbies (since you profit from their wrecks and cans) only serves to illustrate that it's the spirit of the "don't grief" rule that matters, not the particular verbiage. For example, suicide ganking causes immense grief, but is immensely profitable. Thus it's permitted. Ganking newbies causes them considerable grief, but is barely profitable. Thus it is not permitted. Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Oh and btw, griefing is not harassment. Irrelevant. Neither is permitted. Well, by that logic then its not griefing if there is some gain for the interloper. So I retract my previous statement
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:43:00 - [37] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Well, by that logic then its not griefing if there is some gain for the interloper. So I retract my previous statement Petition what you consider griefing and just leave this to the GMs. Unless someone can ring the Wrangler Bell and have him clear this up. I've detected evidence of a severe reading comprehensions failure in your post. Please retry. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Jack Freely Caldari Trading Corp	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:45:00 - [38] Originally by: Sheykal I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Why does this game favor the antagonist, leaving other players absolutely powerless against them? Put a bounty on their heads you say....whatever. Thats like putting money in their pocket, since they would just have a friend pop them and split the bounty. 1. It takes me 10-20 mins to find your dead space 2. Wreaks don't belong to anyone, the loot inside belongs to you. 3. If you don't like it, fit up a frig and attack my salvage rigged ship , it you can't take a ship with 4 salvagers and 4 beams I feel sorry for you.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:46:00 - [39] Just remove flagging for loot theft. Problem goes away. Can flagging was introduced to stop ore theft, not loot theft. ---- Anything less is wasted effort
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Well, by that logic then its not griefing if there is some gain for the interloper. So I retract my previous statement Petition what you consider griefing and just leave this to the GMs. Unless someone can ring the Wrangler Bell and have him clear this up. I've detected evidence of a severe reading comprehensions failure in your post. Please retry. I don't agree with you that there is contradiction in that statement you referred to. It's not a lack of reading comprehension to disagree with you.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:52:00 - [41] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 10/01/2008 17:53:20 Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Well, by that logic then its not griefing if there is some gain for the interloper. So I retract my previous statement Petition what you consider griefing and just leave this to the GMs. Unless someone can ring the Wrangler Bell and have him clear this up. I've detected evidence of a severe reading comprehensions failure in your post. Please retry. I don't agree with you that there is contradiction in that statement you referred to. It's not a lack of reading comprehension to disagree with you. Quite the opposite actually: you would need to question your literacy and logic skills if Xaen's lolpinions about CCP's stance on griefing made any sense to you whatsoever. edit: I'm in another Salvage thread \o/ * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:52:00 - [42] Originally by: CCP Atropos Originally by: DigitalCommunist You can do whatever you want to anyone you want, anywhere you want. The only time you're breaking any rules is if you escape from CONCORD without losing your ship. I don't understand how much more simple it can be. Pretty much. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
Spaceman Jack	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:52:00 - [43] Agreed If EVE is really harsh and meant to be played with blls, then as soon as you touch someone else's stuff you should be killable on sight, no matter where you are. Makes NO DAMN SENSE* to let people steal from you with no consequences.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain I don't agree with you that there is contradiction in that statement you referred to. It's not a matter of agreement. It exists whether or not you agree that it does. Originally by: CCP An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated. Can baiting, then grabbing the salvage and loot results in profit. This contradicts this statement: Originally by: CCP A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Yet it is most definitely still griefing. Thus whether or not an action is considered griefing is up to the GMs, documented specific cases cannot and do not cover all forms of griefing. If you need it to be spelled out for you for each specific case, expect to get warned, suspended, or banned. Originally by: Kuar Z'thain It's not a lack of reading comprehension to disagree with you. Duh. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Jack Freely Caldari Trading Corp	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:58:00 - [45] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain This is an intended game mechanic. If you don't like it hire a salvager to follow you around while you run missions. My salvager can use shield, armor and energy repair systems so I can not only salvage but also keep the tank up and running.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:02:00 - [46] It's never griefing. Especially not in a case where the activity gives you a gain and someone else a loss. But really, you should be able to shoot people who touch your stuff, even if the association between you and said stuff is a tenuous one. - DesuSigs
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:22:00 - [47] This is a rubbish thread about, well rubbish. The whole concept of the salvage profession is centerd upon the reclamation of trash, debris. Salvagers are like carrion birds, picking of the last morsels from a kill regardless of wether the big game cat likes it or not. So if you're a Big Game Cat mission runner, and you really really want that carcass then you had better get to it first. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Max Nero Endless Fury	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:25:00 - [48] Originally by: Spaceman Jack Agreed If EVE is really harsh and meant to be played with blls, then as soon as you touch someone else's stuff you should be killable on sight, no matter where you are. Makes NO DAMN SENSE* to let people steal from you with no consequences. It is not stealing if salvage inside the wreck does not belong to you in the first place. Originally by: Niklo Game to become is more and more similar to prison for not aggressive people.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:55:00 - [49] Originally by: Sheykal I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Why does this game favor the antagonist, leaving other players absolutely powerless against them? Put a bounty on their heads you say....whatever. Thats like putting money in their pocket, since they would just have a friend pop them and split the bounty. I'm sure some are thinking, hey Eve is not a friendly universe. That's fine. But make it equally unfriendly. Wreckage is money to a salvager. So as far as i'm concerned its just as bad as them taking loot, and often times worse cause that wreckage yields more isk. Intended behavior, if you have any doubt, here is a quote from PrismX: Quote: If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former. You can read the thread HERE Simply, Salvaging is a mini-profession, it is not a mission runner's entitlement program. If you have problems with people salvaging your junk laying around move to a less populated system. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:57:00 - [50] Originally by: Spaceman Jack Agreed If EVE is really harsh and meant to be played with blls, then as soon as you touch someone else's stuff you should be killable on sight, no matter where you are. Makes NO DAMN SENSE* to let people steal from you with no consequences. Miners used to jettison their ore into a can in space. This ore was then 'stolen' by passing players - despite the fact that if I threw my wallet across the street and someone ran off with it, Id be labled an idiot. Nevertheless their was much wailing and nashing of teeth, and so CCP made looting a can and agrro inducing theft. Mission runners wanted to run their missions in safety, without fear of attack. Concord was put in place to enforce the rules in high sec. Players, fearing they wouldnt / couldnt reach their loot before some nabbed it were given agrro rights on this aswell. This is despite the fact that said loot was just floating about in space, and until it was in a cargo hold really didnt 'belong' to anyone at all. Now we have wrecks. A chance for the enterprising individual to scoop up the left overs. But oooh noo! The high sec mission runners aren't getting absolutely everything they want. So how about we compromise? You can have aggro rights on salvage, as long as you can be attacked in a mission space in high sec? After all - your robbing stuff of the npcs, so it only seems fair . C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:03:00 - [51] Originally by: Cailais Series of straw man arguments Bunk. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:08:00 - [52] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Cailais Series of straw man arguments Bunk. Nice troll. Unfortunately your detailed, erudite, reasoned response full of carefully considered and logical argument consisted of a highly edited (and may I say rather cliche quote) and only one word. On that basis, I think I'll claim the field Sir. Better luck next time C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:15:00 - [53] Originally by: Xaen [ Originally by: CCP A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Yet it is most definitely still griefing. Thus whether or not an action is considered griefing is up to the GMs, documented specific cases cannot and do not cover all forms of griefing. If you need it to be spelled out for you for each specific case, expect to get warned, suspended, or banned. What? You quote CCP's defenition of griefing, and then you say "but they're wrong because this is so griefing, and you still think you have a good argument?
Xavianum	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:36:00 - [54] A wreck belongs to no one and has no value. I will say it again, a wreck belongs to no one and has no value. Is that clear enough? How is it griefing to salvage/attack/whatever something with no value? A wreck does not contain something of value. Rather, the act of salvaging creates items of value. In this regard, "stealing" a wreck is much more akin to "stealing" a rat kill, no? The act of salvaging, which not everyone does, creates the loot. To all of the people that complain about how salvaging a mission is worth more than the reward, I ask you, why not salvage other peoples' missions? If someone takes the time to scan out your mission site, then I say they are entitled to the trash therein, regardless of what you planned to do with said trash.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.01.10 20:48:00 - [55] Originally by: Xavianum A wreck belongs to no one and has no value. I will say it again, a wreck belongs to no one and has no value. Is that clear enough? How is it griefing to salvage/attack/whatever something with no value? A wreck does not contain something of value. Rather, the act of salvaging creates items of value. In this regard, "stealing" a wreck is much more akin to "stealing" a rat kill, no? The act of salvaging, which not everyone does, creates the loot. To all of the people that complain about how salvaging a mission is worth more than the reward, I ask you, why not salvage other peoples' missions? If someone takes the time to scan out your mission site, then I say they are entitled to the trash therein, regardless of what you planned to do with said trash. Agree with the general reasoning completely, but I have to nitpick some of your specifics. A wreck has no intrinsic value, but it always belongs to somebody and it may contain something of value--lewtz. Otherwise though, nicely stated. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:17:00 - [56] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Cailais Series of straw man arguments Bunk. Nice troll. Unfortunately your detailed, erudite, reasoned response full of carefully considered and logical argument consisted of a highly edited (and may I say rather cliche quote) and only one word. On that basis, I think I'll claim the field Sir. Better luck next time C. Wordy != better. Fail. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:22:00 - [57] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Xaen [ Originally by: CCP A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Yet it is most definitely still griefing. Thus whether or not an action is considered griefing is up to the GMs, documented specific cases cannot and do not cover all forms of griefing. If you need it to be spelled out for you for each specific case, expect to get warned, suspended, or banned. What? You quote CCP's defenition of griefing, and then you say "but they're wrong because this is so griefing, and you still think you have a good argument? I didn't quote their example just for the fun of it. It was to make a specific point. Which you missed. In brief, what the GMs say is griefing is griefing, it doesn't have to be specifically outlined legalese for them to declare it griefing and punish you accordingly. Think otherwise to your own detriment. Quoting EULA and TOS in a bible thumping fashion, or citing precedent doesn't make you right. The game changes, and will continue to change. Just because it was written down once doesn't mean you should stop thinking. Or that nothing should ever be changed again. See the Zulupark fiasco if you require an example. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:38:00 - [58] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 10/01/2008 21:37:59 Originally by: Xaen Quoting EULA and TOS in a bible thumping fashion, or citing precedent doesn't make you right. Well it at least puts you a few notches ahead of people who just quote those things and then say "...but never mind all that crap, JUST LISTEN TO XAEN." So, any luck with your salvage griefing petitions? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:45:00 - [59] "A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way". Erm...Xaen, how does salvaging others wrecks constitute griefing when a player can sell the salvage for ISK? C. Oh, and ref your amusing "=! / Fail" - internet memes ftl C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:52:00 - [60] Originally by: Xaen That sound you hear is my point flying over your head. I reiterated once already. Not doing it again. So, your point, elegantly disguised, was that we shouldn't take what CCP has written in the EULA or TOS as granted, and instead we should let the GM's make the decisions? Is that right? Then I would like to pose you the question: Have you ever had a petition about someone 'stealing' your wrecks answered with a positive outcome for you?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:58:00 - [61] Salvage rights are granted by the owner of a ship, not by the person blowing it up. If you can prove that the captain of the vessel which you destroyed would have given those rights to you, rather than the salvager, take your evidence to Concord. Otherwise, stop moaning that your victims would rather a third party attempted to provide salvage services than you. What do you expect? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.10 22:21:00 - [62] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Xaen That sound you hear is my point flying over your head. I reiterated once already. Not doing it again. So, your point, elegantly disguised, was that we shouldn't take what CCP has written in the EULA or TOS as granted, and instead we should let the GM's make the decisions? Is that right? Close. You shouldn't read it word for word and treat all specific things it prohibits as a violation, and all else to be allowed. Originally by: Ki An Then I would like to pose you the question: Have you ever had a petition about someone 'stealing' your wrecks answered with a positive outcome for you? I've never filed such a petition. You? I'm merely arguing from a philosophical standpoint. It doesn't have to personally affect me to object on principal. I objected just as strongly to the carrier nerf in Zulupark's blog and I can't fly one and have no plans to. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.01.10 22:43:00 - [63] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Ki An Then I would like to pose you the question: Have you ever had a petition about someone 'stealing' your wrecks answered with a positive outcome for you? I've never filed such a petition. You? I'm merely arguing from a philosophical standpoint. It doesn't have to personally affect me to object on principal. I objected just as strongly to the carrier nerf in Zulupark's blog and I can't fly one and have no plans to. You are arguing for the sake of arguing, and you're not even doing a good job of it. You have never filed such a petition, thus you have absolutely NO idea what CCP's stand on this is UNLESS you go by what is in the EULA and TOS. Thus, you have absolutely no point at all.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2008.01.10 22:54:00 - [64] CCP stand lacks any logic in this. Wrecks are a byproduct of someone else's hard work (or not hard, but without the mission runner, there would be no wrecks at all). No one says that you should not be able to touch them, but there should be consequences and risk in doing so. Apparently that is such a big issue, because mission loot just utterly and hopelessly sucks in 95% of cases. Salvage can often be worth as much the whole mission reward+bounties. If you worked to actually create those wrecks, salvaging them is another form of reward for dong a mission. If you exploiting another person work, you should bear with the consequences, which should be flagging and possible destruction of your ship. I can not call an adequate effort completing the mission on one hand and scanning a mission space and just collecting the rewards on the other hand.
Oldin Kinrod	Posted - 2008.01.11 00:06:00 - [65] I'll make this easy for everyone - see the thread in my sig. Everything has been said before. This is an intended game mechanic, and as so stated by the Devs will not be changed any time soon. Welcome to the collection of "light reading" on Eve, Wrecks, Mission Probing and You. Enjoy. People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions?
Malcanis 5 finger discounteers	Posted - 2008.01.11 00:45:00 - [66] Originally by: Sheykal I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Why does this game favor the antagonist, leaving other players absolutely powerless against them? Put a bounty on their heads you say....whatever. Thats like putting money in their pocket, since they would just have a friend pop them and split the bounty. I'm sure some are thinking, hey Eve is not a friendly universe. That's fine. But make it equally unfriendly. Wreckage is money to a salvager. So as far as i'm concerned its just as bad as them taking loot, and often times worse cause that wreckage yields more isk. "Powerless"? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.11 02:35:00 - [67] Originally by: Sheykal I'm really curious why the Devs made it so easy for people to just fly up and take wreckage right out from under your nose. Because this is a multiplayer PvP game where confrontations are not always consentual. Is there anything else I can help you with? -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.11 02:38:00 - [68] Originally by: Xaen Period. Get a tampon. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.11 02:45:00 - [69] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 11/01/2008 02:44:54 No salvage exists until a salvage module is used on the wreck. The salvage is created in the cargo hold of the owner. It is no more stealing than setting your Miner module on a asteroid somebody else is also mining. The exact same thing happens: new stuff that wasn't there before is created in the cargo hold of the player using the module. End of story. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Siriyana Astrum Contract Services Group	Posted - 2008.01.11 03:06:00 - [70] Originally by: Ki An 3. If salvaging would flag the salvager, in six months you would have a thread a day about some carebear losing his CNR after attacking a salvager. Pick one. You mean six minutes, right? Not six months? ----- CEO, Astrum Contract Services Group
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2008.01.11 07:55:00 - [71] Simple solution - buff mission rewards, ppl would stop caring about losing wrecks. And don't tell me mission rewards are already high, missions are being constantly nerfed for the past 2.5 years. Ppl who compare the wrecks to the asteroid belts really have to get a clue. This would be the same if those belts would appear because of something you did, right now they are lying there regardless of whatever you do to them or just ignore them completely. It has no similarities whatsoever with missions.
Davos Breemer	Posted - 2008.01.11 08:19:00 - [72] Originally by: Jack Freely 3. If you don't like it, fit up a frig and attack my salvage rigged ship , it you can't take a ship with 4 salvagers and 4 beams I feel sorry for you. I would if I wouldn't get vaporised by CONCORD for doing so. This is the complaint - wreckage can be salvaged by anybody in high-sec without consequence because the people who do try to defend their wrecks will be shot by CONCORD. Do you understand this now? I wouldn't need to get a frig to do it in either as my salvager is armed.
Ursula LeGuinn Versus Gloria Omnis	Posted - 2008.01.11 08:35:00 - [73] Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn on 11/01/2008 08:35:52 Originally by: Estephania ...and scanning a mission space and just collecting the rewards on the other hand. Locating a mission runner and salvaging/looting his wrecks takes time, effort and some skill, which isn't much different from the time and effort involved in actually running the mission. The reward for finding a mission runner is the opportunity to take some of their stuff. True, there's no real risk involved in it for the pirate. But then, there's no real risk involved in it for the mission runner, either. He can loot and salvage as much as possible before the pirate gets it, and start a new mission. And of course, if it's in lowsec, the mission runner might flee, complete (or fail) the mission (deadspace pocket vanishes), and be back two minutes later with an Interceptor to pin the pirate down until his pals come to pod him.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ama-gi	Posted - 2008.01.11 11:26:00 - [74] Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 11/01/2008 11:32:05 This is an interesting thread about an interesting point. I live in low sec because I like the freedom to do things that I want. This means, of course, that I like the concept of aggro. I can't say that I buy into the fact that because I kill a npc pirate that I automatically should own the wreck.. but , I should have the right to shoot anyone that tries to come in and take it out from under my nose. So I'm for the aggro. It allows more pvp in high sec. I don't think it will kill salvaging as a career. It would not make rigs more expensive. It would alter gameplay so that the career some people have chosen will change. Sucks to be those people, but playing Eve is about adapting. And ppl would adapt and would still take your stuff. That being said, aggro won't make the op happy. he's obviously far too carebearish to enjoy being shot at by well-prepared salvage thieves :) imagine someone finding you in your mission and warping in while you are still being engaged by many hostile npcs. they start salvaging your loot. sure, you could open fire on them but then they could very possibly break your tank, destroy, loot and salvage your wreck along with the npc wrecks... w which makes me think of another interesting question... what if someone finds you missioning, and starts shooting your npc rats... those cans belong now to the interloper (not to mention the 'stolen' bounty). so do you want to make shooting your npc rats an aggro-able offense as well? and if so can a 'living' npc pirate really 'belong' to you? how far does it go? /emote shrug. -- No love for the Matari
Dr Qu Caldari Gone Viking	Posted - 2008.01.11 11:55:00 - [75] I have to say that I agree with the op. EVE is a game that lets you fly alone or fly with a friend or several friends. Bottomline is that if I want to fly alone, it should be my right and my choice to do so. When I fly alone, I do missions. When I do missions, I do them to earn ISK. I spend the time doing the mission, and afterwards I consider it my right to have full access to the loot field afterwards. I consider the loot to be mine, and I consider the salvage to be mine. As such, and I have petitioned for it and will continue to petition for it, I agree fully that wrecks should be protected in all the same manner that loot cans are. I didnt spend that time sitting in my ship doing a mission so that some **** in a newbie frigate can waltz in and take my salvage. I do not pay and play so that some **** can earn isk without any risk and effort what so ever. For no cost at all. In all honesty, I much prefer the ability to defend my loot field (salvage and loot included) and see the chance for some PVP if the little turd that likes to cruise around in his or her newbie frigate cares to bring out his fighting ship once his salvage frig has been vaporized. After all, is that not what all you usual trolls advocate? EVE is a PVP game? THEN GIVE US THE ABILITY TO PVP THOSE BASTARDS! Its fun to read though, at times, and see the usual trolls defend the ability to open PVP in high sec in one thread, but in another thread toot the horn that all is well, instead of getting on the bandwagon when an option for even more PVP content is suggested. Get on the program, trollies. Support criminal flagging on salvagable wrecks! The result can be nothing more then more PVP. And EVE is PVP right? I have a suggestion though. It has some risk to it, but in the end it might actually get those annoying little salvage thieves into their own mission ships so they can slave away like we mission runners do. And that is to start popping your wrecks after they appear. Leave nothing for the thieves to take. Do that for a month. Should be interesting to see the results. :: "In hullintegrity we trust" ::
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:03:00 - [76] Dr Qu, you fail extremely hard, so I'll take the time to point out where. Originally by: Dr Qu I have to say that I agree with the op. EVE is a game that lets you fly alone or fly with a friend or several friends. Bottomline is that if I want to fly alone, it should be my right and my choice to do so. Who's stopping you from flying alone? Noone, that's who. You can fly alone all you want as long as you accept the fact that people who don't fly alone have an advantage over you in almost every situation. Originally by: Dr Qu When I fly alone, I do missions. When I do missions, I do them to earn ISK. I spend the time doing the mission, and afterwards I consider it my right to have full access to the loot field afterwards. I consider the loot to be mine, and I consider the salvage to be mine. As such, and I have petitioned for it and will continue to petition for it, I agree fully that wrecks should be protected in all the same manner that loot cans are. You consider it your right? That's like me saying I consider it my right that your ship pops when I point my mouse cursor at it. It's not part of the game, and it doesn't matter how much you want it to be. Also, tying up GM time with useless petitions is ftl! Originally by: Dr Qu I didnt spend that time sitting in my ship doing a mission so that some **** in a newbie frigate can waltz in and take my salvage. I do not pay and play so that some ** can earn isk without any risk and effort what so ever. For no cost at all. Fail. The '** in a newbie frigate' has spent untold amounts of time scanning down your mission, wasting a lot of probes to do so. There goes the 'no effort' and 'no cost' right out the window. When it comes to risk, the ninja-salvager runs as much risk as you do. Originally by:** Dr Qu In all honesty, I much prefer the ability to defend my loot field (salvage and loot included) and see the chance for some PVP if the little turd that likes to cruise around in his or her newbie frigate cares to bring out his fighting ship once his salvage frig has been vaporized. Yeah, you want to pvp newbie salvagers in n00b ships, but imagine if this change would happen. The first time you lose your precious CNR for aggroing a salvager in a n00b ship who then came back in a BS. Imagine how much you would cry. Imagine how much we'd laugh at you. Originally by: Dr Qu After all, is that not what all you usual trolls advocate? EVE is a PVP game? THEN GIVE US THE ABILITY TO PVP THOSE BASTARDS! Linkage Originally by: Dr Qu Its fun to read though, at times, and see the usual trolls defend the ability to open PVP in high sec in one thread, but in another thread toot the horn that all is well, instead of getting on the bandwagon when an option for even more PVP content is suggested. It might be because the 'usual trolls' are capable of thinking more than one step ahead. Originally by: Dr Qu Get on the program, trollies. Support criminal flagging on salvagable wrecks! The result can be nothing more then more PVP. And EVE is PVP right? You don't get to say that. You're a carebear and you should talk about mining and stuff. Originally by: Dr Qu I have a suggestion though. It has some risk to it, but in the end it might actually get those annoying little salvage thieves into their own mission ships so they can slave away like we mission runners do. And that is to start popping your wrecks after they appear. Leave nothing for the thieves to take. Do that for a month. Should be interesting to see the results. Wow, you mission runners have it hard for sure. Tell you what, since you're so in to this whole "Eve is PvP" concept, why don't we get CCP to put all lvl 4's in low sec and 0.0? That should sate your appetite for PvP.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:52:00 - [77] If I mine an asteroid in the same belt as you, am I stealing your ore? There is no salvage in wrecks. It is mined with the salvager. So what am I stealing? Nothing, I'm creating. Kind people will ask, if you want to mine these roids or if its ok to mine themselves. So it is with wrecks. Problem is, there isn't many kind people in EvE.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.01.11 14:11:00 - [78] Originally by: Dr Qu Get on the program, trollies. Support criminal flagging on salvagable wrecks! The result can be nothing more then more PVP. And EVE is PVP right? No, the result will be more full-time mission running because it has become more profitable. Meanwhile rigs will go up in price because supply of components has been reduced. If flagging was removed for loot of any kind other than jetcans then more people would seek their fortunes in lowsec which would mean more pvp. ---- Anything less is wasted effort
Zaskarr Amarr Falling Stars Squadron	Posted - 2008.01.11 14:17:00 - [79] All your wrecks are belong to me! Srsly any wrecks with no hostiles around = salvage tiem! __________________ How do I shot web?
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.11 18:10:00 - [80] you dont own wrecks Trashed sig, Shark was here

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