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Octavinus Augustus
Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 10:47:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Jkol0 IMO UK and SF have done a fine job with what they had and id love to see someone try and prove otherwise and call it a FACT!
Well, as a personal view I think that both U'K and SF are doing well with what they have in space. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement, but that could easily be said of any organisation out there - including CVA.
What I personally dislike is this habit of Jade's of always throwing obvious spin into any debate. Take this thread for instance: It is supposed to be an AAR. But for some odd reason Jade just can't omit making it an obvious spin thread instead: Severence sucks and they are breaking up etc, etc, etc.
This is just Jade's style I guess. She has been doing the exact same thing (under one name or another) in every conflict SF and the Amarr Loyalists have been involved in since my pilot license in EvE.
I guess it has something to do with the way we individually perceive EvE. I would like for my enemies in EvE to throw everything they have at me to the best of their ability according to whatever strategy they find best (and me throwing whatever I have in the opposite direction). Regardless of who would win that conflict we would all have a lot of fun in the process.
Jade's style of play is more like getting into the sandbox and then start throwing sand in everyones eyes until they leave. Her idea seems to be that if she's the last pilot in EvE she's also automatically the winner of it all.
Fortunately for EvE, the people she fight have a lot of fun playing regardless of Jade's continous attempts to ruin the game experience for them. Consequently her forum behaviour is seen (at least to me) as a minor nuisance that can generally be ignored.
Incidentally, this is also why I personally have such a high regard for U'K. Even if they have lost A LOT to CVA over the last year and even if there are obviously a lot of bitterness about the way RP has evolved U'K as an organisation tend to stick to the high road. I know of very few organisations that will stick to it throughout, even suffering the looses and setback suffered by U'K. I can only hope that if CVA is one day in a situation similar to that of U'K that I'll be able to behave myself as well as these guys generally do.
To get back to the AAR: Although I wasn't there, I find that the concept used by U'K/SF was potentially brilliant and the execution less so. Much like the british display of tanks at Somme in 1916 it has the effect of revealing a new and dangerous weapon to the enemy without making any gains by it whatsoever. I simply cannot see this as anything but a failure.
But as has been pointed out: If it was fun then I guess that's not a big concern.
Q: How many Amarr does it take to change a light bulb? A: None, we have Minnies to do the menial chores. |
Kai Zion
Amarr The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.01.14 11:00:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Jade's continous attempts to ruin the game experience for them.
With this remark, you're guilty of the very thing you accused another of, in fact even more so. You made some good points in there, but you too have thrown in some obvious "spin" to push your own agenda, implying that SF is out to ruin anyone's game experience. I really hope you don't genuinely believe that's what driven them day in day out for the last 4+ years. There's a difference too, between you and your enemies in these posts.
Jade/SF spins to to imply Severance was falling. That's their own interpretation of the facts at hand. That's fair play political gaming and psyops, if you ask me.
You just spun to imply SF is out to ruin people's game. That's an entirely different, and less interesting/respectable type of political play/psyops, if you ask me.
I really will leave it at that now. SF can speak for themselves, they don't need some random, irrelevant third party doing it for them.
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Laerise
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.14 11:00:00 -
[123]
Another meaningless operation which lost you many ships and POS.
And only to further one goal.
Originally by: Jade Constantine "please please notice me!"
Ironic that you need to mirror your own, deepest desire on someone who is as meaningless, as weak and as pathethic as you are.
Black sheep, white sheep, they're all sheep, just as you are, go on, ba' all you want, it will never shake the foundations of mankind.
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kincajou niten
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 12:22:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Kai Zion psyops
Most of us like straight and honest opponent (like U'K, or TRI, or CI or any other major group who were invanding our space) and don't like spinning and lying opponent who is openly admit they are doing "psyops" (like SF) - only because of that anything such opponent says should be doublechecked.
Now, when the fight ended, field looted, it's nice to see opponent's GF in one form or another. In the case of SF, it's not GF, its generally 'we are uber, you all suck, we win'.
Again, with every major conflict we've been in, there were people on both sides throwing mud at the other side, but the leaders always told their members to stfu and go fight. Sadly that's not the case with SF. It might not look so for the outsiders in this thread, but to understand you would need to read everything SF posted since we had our first contact with them.
With all that in mind, people from SF - please don't be surprised you see we treat you like you treat us.
As to the stealth bombers - interesting concept but to implement it properly you would need to outnumber your opponent, in which case you can just bring the regular fleet. And even if you would have succeeded in downing one/two of our dreads you'd still loose ISK wise overall if you take price of 7 fully fitted towers into account.
GF goes to U'K. :-)
All of the above is imho. And sorry for bad english if it's offends anyone.
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Mangold
Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.01.14 12:59:00 -
[125]
Severance looks to have been in really deep trouble judging by their own posts above.
A nice and well written report Jade. I enjoyed reading it.
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Swamp Ziro
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.14 13:58:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 14/01/2008 13:59:37
Originally by: kincajou niten
Originally by: Kai Zion psyops
Most of us like straight and honest opponent (like U'K, or TRI, or CI or any other major group who were invanding our space) and don't like spinning and lying opponent who is openly admit they are doing "psyops" (like SF) - only because of that anything such opponent says should be doublechecked.
You need to rethink psyops if you think TRI was honest and didn't do any when fighting you guys. Not all of them happen on purpose, but they exist none the less.
For example TRI just had this defensive PR going, by which they could forfeit every fight of their choosing, risk nothing, and basically exploit as much as possible risking as little as possible, by defense of doing it for fun and hating lag. This is why they got all the heat on the forums, not because everyone just "hates" TRI for no reason at all.
When people realize that 2 opposing parties in EVE can't have fun at the same time, then hopefully this idiotic PR line will die out, but yeah that will take a awhile.
(before you answer with CVA/UK had fun at similar times, no, they didn't. Not when you lost a fight to cva. Maybe 2 hours after that when you took your wolfpack to inflatable you had fun, but never at the same time, and that's as close as you'll get)
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acompton
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.14 14:42:00 -
[127]
Nicely done Jade.
Only Jade has the patented "Wall of Text"(tm) technique that doesn't make you regret your time reading it.
Hooray for context!
o7
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Conlin
Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.14 15:04:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Hardin
Originally by: Conlin
Originally by: Kai Zion I find it pretty telling that one side can happily admit their defeats and weaknesses and yet still hold their heads high because they had fun. All whilst the other side is busy nitpicking and getting butthurt over every single possible point they can, no matter how small, even feeling the need to point out defeats and weaknesses that have already been admitted in the very first post and subsequent others.
It's pretty clear who the "bitter" ones are and what group is still having fun - even as they try something others would deem impossible.
Just for you Nek , read it , digest it and rethink your next reply before you join the rest in this topic . The day our pos,s were coming out of reinforced we had almost a 70 man gang . And there was nothing but humour and laughing on our comms . That sounds more to be people enjoying themselves than bitterness to me , even down to the last shot fired in KBP. One last thing .... who the hell are you ?. What a brazen-fac,d varlet art thou ...
I actually think Kai wasn't referring to UK/SF with this but then maybe I read it wrong
Maybe you did , maybe I did Her first post was a positive post and with that I surmised from all the negative flame posts from sev etc she was having a dig . Anyway it was still fun to try and it took us away from the pos hugging / lag blobs , and more importantly we had fun . And thats what I pay CCP for every month .
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 15:23:00 -
[129]
I think some indignation from -7- is a bit warranted. Something that seems lost in the whole "geurilla revolutionaries" thing is that Ushra'khan and Star Fraction outnumber -7- by a decent amount, have been in a state of war (Concord or otherwise) with -7- for about three months, have a decidedly more veteran pilot base...and even with the timing of tower deployment matching TRI's assault on CVA and CVA being forced into sheer survival mode, these two organizations were unsuccessful in bringing down -7- in the last month.
They're understandably proud of lasting under the pressure. It's no more wrong (or bitter) for them to point out that they were not about to fall than it is for Jade or others to imply that the were about to fall.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.14 15:30:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Octavinus Augustus What I personally dislike is this habit of Jade's of always throwing obvious spin into any debate. Take this thread for instance: It is supposed to be an AAR. But for some odd reason Jade just can't omit making it an obvious spin thread instead: Severence sucks and they are breaking up etc, etc, etc.
Now Octavinus. One thing I'm immediately going to say to you is that in your accusation of "spin" against my ARR you have in my opinion immediately opted to "spin" yourself in a very obvious way. You have neatly condensed this paragraph:
Originally by: Jade Constantine This was almost the end for Sev3rance. The pressure was growing, their space fleet largely impotent and helpless with the CVA fleet generally POSÆed and docked from the threat of Triumvirate and morale inside the CVA holder alliance was diminished and threadbare. (Many alliance defections occurred, individuals, whole corps, while general numbers of active pilots suffered badly.)
To your own interpretation/spin:
Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Severence sucks and they are breaking up etc, etc, etc.
And in doing that you are replacing the informed opinion of a dispute that I've been a part of and close observer of for the best part of three months with a throwaway line of smacktalk = "Sev3rance sucks". And you are definitely doing exactly what you are accusing me of doing, "spinning". I'll make it clear for you at this point. Sev3rance does not "suck". Sev3rance had been put under a huge amount of pressure by dedicated SF/UK pilots for a long time. Sev3rance had seen its allies in CSA and BORG alliance generally ousted from KBP with parts (or entire) corporations surrendering and leaving the war. While CVA were involved with TRI you weren't able to help Sev3rance and they were paying the price. In my opinion if TRI had remained active in Providence for another 4 weeks then Sev3rance would have lost all towers in KBP and would be out of the war. You can disagree with this analysis by all means but please don't insult the intelligence of readers here to try to label my analysis "spin".
Quote: Jade's style of play is more like getting into the sandbox and then start throwing sand in everyones eyes until they leave. Her idea seems to be that if she's the last pilot in EvE she's also automatically the winner of it all. Fortunately for EvE, the people she fight have a lot of fun playing regardless of Jade's continous attempts to ruin the game experience for them. Consequently her forum behaviour is seen (at least to me) as a minor nuisance that can generally be ignored.
Again I don't really understand why you feel to need to make this personal Octavinus. I don't know what you mean by "the sandbox" in this context. And I really don't understand why you think I'm trying to "ruin the game experience" for people by fighting an ideological war against enclosurist powers in Providence. Aren't you roleplaying an evil slaver cackling maniacally while whipping slaves and counting your wealth of the evening Octavinus? You have willingly chosen to play "the bad guys" in the Amarr vs Matari war and you camp up all the aspects of the regressive tyranny you are building down there. I can't see how you have grounds to complain about me "ruining your gameplay experience" by bringing a force and campaign to oppose your plans in Providence.
Is there something I've missed? CVA seemed to take the invasion from TRI with good-humour and confidence and pride. Why do you have to get so defensive and allege "sandbox-kicking" and "gameplay experience ruining" when you are attacked by and organization a tenth of TRI's size and consistently the underdog in all engagements?
Why can't you just play the game and accept that we are out to destroy your character's pretend slavery empire in Providence and ruin all the in-chracter dirty deals and sense of ease your "Amarrian evildoers" have achieved thus far. Thats the game. Why not play it?
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.14 15:37:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Garreck I think some indignation from -7- is a bit warranted. Something that seems lost in the whole "geurilla revolutionaries" thing is that Ushra'khan and Star Fraction outnumber -7- by a decent amount, have been in a state of war (Concord or otherwise) with -7- for about three months, have a decidedly more veteran pilot base...and even with the timing of tower deployment matching TRI's assault on CVA and CVA being forced into sheer survival mode, these two organizations were unsuccessful in bringing down -7- in the last month.
That is precisely the point Garreck. I said that Sev3rance had been under a huge amount of pressure and were close to falling. I am absolutely convinced that had TRI remained active in Providence for another month Sev3rance would not have survived. While your dreadnaught fleet was forcibly docked from the TRI threat we had free reign in KBP and were able to reinforce towers at will with our dozen such hulls and Sev3rance had absolutely no answer.
This isn't about Sev3rance having "pride" at surviving the pressure. This was a very real and honest assessment from my lips that Sev3rance were not able to survive in Providence without CVA support. Now you can disagree with that by all means but that will simply be your alternative opinion. This is all opinion. Nobody is "lying" (except when addressing particular items of fantasy as in some of the Sev posts above). Its generally all "difference of opinion." Perhaps we'll never know Garreck. Or perhaps CVA will be attacked by somebody else and Sev will have to stand "alone" again.
Ultimately though people need to keep their temper when posting public debate. If you believe that Sev3rance wasn't about to fall during the TRI assault on CVA and UK/SF capital assault on KBP then perhaps you'd like to tell us how they would have managed to survive, rather than simply asserting their right to appear wounded and bitter in the rebuttal's here? It would certainly improve the quality of debate from your side of the table at this point
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.14 15:41:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Xennith on 14/01/2008 15:44:40
Originally by: Garreck Something that seems lost in the whole "geurilla revolutionaries" thing is that Ushra'khan and Star Fraction outnumber -7- by a decent amount, have been in a state of war (Concord or otherwise) with -7- for about three months, have a decidedly more veteran pilot base...and even with the timing of tower deployment matching TRI's assault on CVA and CVA being forced into sheer survival mode, these two organizations were unsuccessful in bringing down -7- in the last month.
Id be interested to see the numbers actually, I think Sev has more pilots but that might just be perception being affected by the "counts every foeman twice" syndrome, still, one thing i do remember quite vividly from the last few weeks (just after TRI left) was CVA jumping in a 130 man fleet to rep one of -7-s large poses, at the time we had approx 14 pilots in KBP. As such, i dont think that severance have that much of a numbers issue.
Nobody is denying that being outnumbered is a big problem in EVE fleetfights, but with more of the innovation shown in operation fedaykin, we might be able to turn these things into oppertunites for good (fun) fights.
(note that this post is my own opinion, and does not constitute any attempt to speak on the behalf of anyone else).
We come for our people |
Deathsoul
Caldari Evolution
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Posted - 2008.01.14 15:47:00 -
[133]
Jade, your just back and already those walls of text :) i see you havent forgot anything my Dear.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.14 15:51:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Xennith Id be interested to see the numbers actually, I think Sev has more pilots but that might just be perception being affected by the "counts every foeman twice" syndrome, still, one thing i do remember quite vividly from the last few weeks (just after TRI left) was CVA jumping in a 130 man fleet to rep one of -7-s large poses, at the time we had approx 14 pilots in KBP. As such, i dont think that severance have that much of a numbers issue.
We have been tracking the numbers quite closely since the beginning of the war. At the beginning Sev3rance+CSA+BORG (the mainly KBP providence levies) definitely had more numbers than UK/SF at peak. This was steadily eroded by the destruction of BORG, reduction of CSA, and indeed from material defections from Sev3rance's own ranks over the first two months of war.
And this of course to say nothing of the occassional "big squadron" of wider Providence levies that Sev3rance could count on from CVA led fleets of CVA/Paxton/Slyph/IAC etc when matters became dire.
Its certainly the case that Sev3rance today does have numbers problems however and on recent data can no longer stand alone against SF let alone SF and Ushra'khan. That much is something I think all sides on the conflict can certainly agree with. Hence for the foreseeable future a part of CVA's main fleet is going to be tied down in KBP and empire approaches to "bulk up" and protect this key critical system.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 15:51:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Ultimately though people need to keep their temper when posting public debate.
Which I've learned from a long time of Contstantine debate actually reads "say what ever you wish as long as you don't disagree with my assessments." Writing off -7- indignation at your implication that they were about to collapse as a temper issue is no different than many of us writing off those very claims as spin to cover the fact that you campaign has, to date, failed.
Originally by: Xennith
Id be interested to see the numbers actually, I think Sev has more pilots
Ushra'Khan alone outnumber -7-. 280 to 250 in approximate numbers. Star Fraction has like 135 or some-such.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.14 15:52:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Deathsoul Jade, your just back and already those walls of text :) i see you havent forgot anything my Dear.
Tell the truth the long exile probably did me some good Deathsoul - I learned to actually pvp a bit while banned from posting
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.14 16:06:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Garreck ... no different than many of us writing off those very claims as spin to cover the fact that you campaign has, to date, failed.
The life of the revolutionary and the freedom fighter is a constant round of failures and defeats Garreck. Every day we wake up in the knowledge that we have failed to destroy the tyrannies that enrage us. Each evening we go to sleep in the full awareness that we have failed to scatter the masses of sheepish coverts to the Amarrian regime in Providence, and we've failed to light the fires of freedom in that benighted region. We fail when we see your Towers remaining. We fail when you see "neutrals" gulled into bowing to the Amarrian powerbase there. A thousand little failures and a thousand more. Its a constant diet of failure Garreck and one we've gotten well used to in five years of failing to win this revolution of the hearts and minds and future of the capsuleer soul.
And you know what Garreck. We'll keep on failing because our failures taste better than the success that comes from submission and assimilation into crass surrender to the Amarrian body politic in Providence. Our failures blaze brightly in the dim shadows of your success. Our defeats are as glorious as your victories are mundane. Our losses as beautiful as you gains are dim and tawdry.
We are failures Garreck. We fail to submit. We fail to surrender. We fail to die.
And we'll keep on failing right up to the time we kill you. And when that happens ironically enough there won't be any of you left alive to applaud our ... success.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 16:11:00 -
[138]
Now that is far more becoming and far more appropriate, Jade. I like it.
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Kai Zion
Amarr The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.01.14 16:17:00 -
[139]
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.14 16:42:00 -
[140]
I've no idea who took this camera footage of the Bomber attack but it gives an excellent view of what it looks like to be in that battlespace during an operation of this scale.
Stealth Bomber attack on CVA Dreadnaught
Enjoy.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
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Erikel
Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat
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Posted - 2008.01.14 16:45:00 -
[141]
That was a great post, can i order ten more please.
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Keorythe
Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 17:08:00 -
[142]
Ms. Constantine, as you've probably noticed most of the angry posts haven't really mentioned Ursha'Khan or even pointed at them. In just about every case the finger is pointed straight at Star Fraction. The Providence alliances have a healthy respect for Ursha'Khan and attitude generally changes when fighting one of their pilots or when we see one in system. Because of the history of the system we expect that from them. That is completely different when we see or fight Star Fraction. As many have already mentioned in one form or another you are a propoganda addict. We Providence alliances tend to get fed up when you spin keeps going and going on about things that are flat out lies or selective posting. So when we see this "intel" you post we all just blink and say "what? when did this happen?"
Originally by: Jade Constantine In my opinion if TRI had remained active in Providence for another 4 weeks then Sev3rance would have lost all towers in KBP and would be out of the war. You can disagree with this analysis by all means but please don't insult the intelligence of readers here to try to label my analysis "spin".
This of course is one of the most frustrating things for Sev3rance. Our stations were fully fuelled and pimped out. Control of the gate changed hands whenever one group had more pilots awake (we have high and low hours which you know well) so getting in/out supplies wasn't a problem. After the first attempt at removing the SF/UK towers and the subsequent interferance by TRI during that op, NEITHER side dared bring out their capitals without risking a 200 man battleship fleet being dropped on their heads. In fact in the entire conflict not a single UK or SF ship was seen in action until the later evacuation by the enemy. We are still confused how the heck you came up with that accessment.
As you can see we kind of felt like the Monty Python guy being loaded into the cart say, "hello! I'm not dead!" by the rest of the community. If anything thats one of the issues which has bred so much contempt for Star Fraction. The other is the devestating loss and the change of reasoning for the initial sovereignty attempt. First it was a reclamation. Then it was a foothold. Then after the loss it was just a "sovereignty harassment". Spin, spin, and more spin.
We've come to the conclusion after reading much of your walls of text throughout the years that you could lose all of your ships, your T2 bpo's, your pilots, cosmo would start wearing funny hats, and you worked as a SWG dev and still manage find an excuse to write that you are "holding your heads high".
The final thing that annoys us most is how personal you have gotten involved in this. The amount of energy you put into the slander is phenomenal. Not even UK who have a historical interest in the area go through those kinds of hoops (they jab us about the pos shields and we jab them about the cloaks). SF while now allies of UK never had that kind of precedent until recently. In fact we were still all surprised at the venom you held against CVA and anyone associated with them until details became known about your history and them. At this point we realized that its gone beyond roleplay and became a personal vendetta. We're fine with that now. We'll just have to keep surviving as usual and pick up more experience from the whole thing and get stronger. Like it or not you've made us the underdogs here.
Yeah yeah, I know I wasn't but its hard to ignore.
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Octavinus Augustus
Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 17:18:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Sev3rance does not "suck". Sev3rance had been put under a huge amount of pressure by dedicated SF/UK pilots for a long time.
Well, if there is one thing we Amarrian loyalists hates it's having our illusions shattered. With a post like this you have certainly surprised me to say the least. If you mean what you say (which I assume that you do), I guess the problem lies in the way many of your posts can be read either IC or OoC. I will maintain that many of your postings can be easily interpreted as "throwing sand in people's eyes" - wether you intend them as such or not.
However, I'm a strong believer in "Credit where it is due" - and you do deserve credit for writing the above.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Again I don't really understand why you feel to need to make this personal Octavinus.
I have never intended my post to be a personal attack - if you have read it in such a way, I think an apology on my part is in order. The reason I used your name in particular is that I do not feel that the critisism is valid for SF as a whole. I have read and enjoyed many threads (by The Cosmopolite for instance) and I know well enough that ingame you have many skilled and honorable pilots - yourself included.
My post was meant solely as a comment on your personal posting style, not as an attack on SF, nor as a personal attack on you. Reading my own post again, I see it can be read as such though. That wasn't the intention.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Aren't you roleplaying an evil slaver cackling maniacally while whipping slaves and counting your wealth of the evening Octavinus? You have willingly chosen to play "the bad guys" in the Amarr vs Matari war and you camp up all the aspects of the regressive tyranny you are building down there.
Personally I don't see my character as an "evil slaver". It's more a matter of him being "***** bin Laden in Power". A fanatic who simply KNOWS that his beliefs are the right ones and will sacrifice anyone and anything to further them. But thats another story entirely.
Originally by: Jade Constantine I can't see how you have grounds to complain about me "ruining your gameplay experience" by bringing a force and campaign to oppose your plans in Providence.
I don't. As said in my original post, ingame I expect you to throw everything you have at us in whatever way you find most efficient. I'll certainly throw whatever I can find in the opposite direction.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Is there something I've missed? CVA seemed to take the invasion from TRI with good-humour and confidence and pride. Why do you have to get so defensive and allege "sandbox-kicking" and "gameplay experience ruining" when you are attacked by and organization a tenth of TRI's size and consistently the underdog in all engagements?
Back in my PIE days I was "involved" in the SF/PIE "war". The impression you had on the people in PIE was basically as if all the children in the local kindergarden sat in the local sandbox playing. One child then started throwing sand in everyone else's eyes. Very soon noone could be bothered to play at all (this is also what I was referring to above when saying "sandbox" and "throwing sand").
The impression you came across with basically ruined what could have been a fun experience for all. Wether that impression was deliberate or not, it certainly had the effect of a lot of people turning away and concentrating on other things. Personally, I think that was a shame.
Unfortunately, it seems pretty much the same thing is happening between SF and Severence right now.
Q: How many Amarr does it take to change a light bulb? A: None, we have Minnies to do the menial chores. |
Kovid
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.14 17:23:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Keorythe Last post from me so feel free to flame all you want without any further responses. COAD combat is much tougher than fleet.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.14 17:29:00 -
[145]
The problem for your assessment Keorythe is that weÆve played a part in the campaign for the last three months and know precisely how your expressed opinion of the UshraÆkhan switches from extreme to extreme depending on your latest attempt to divide-and-rule or denigrate their capabilities. All that is being posted now from Sev3rance is a fresh (well I hesitate to call it psyops) shall I just say initiative to try to vent your (considerable) frustrations on Star Fraction at your own disappointment at not being able to hold space in Providence without the more or less full time support of a larger power (CVA). Its rather painfully transparent and something that is noted by the huge majority of neutral commentators on this thread.
Still, onto your point about the Towers. You are missing the point. While TRI were tying up CVA we had capital ships in KBP and you couldnÆt counter them without CVA support. This whole discussion is about me saying that Sev3rance was on the point of defeat and was saved ultimately by the TRI pullout and CVAÆs full intervention in your favour and thus far absolutely nothing posted by any Sev3rance speaker on this thread has disputed this analysis in any substantive or credible way. We had space superiority and in-system capital ship assets. Doesn't matter how you set up your Towers, they go down to a Dreadnaught fleet unless you have full CVA support and intervention. We all know this, you know this, CVA know this. Its silly to keep debating the point really.
On to the remainder of your comments - what you describe as ôcontemptö for the Star Fraction is something I read as ôfearö, ôfrustrationö, ôangerö. I mean honestly Keorythe. WeÆve been at war for close to three months now. YouÆve had a lot of time to bring to fights to us on your own if you were capable of such a thing. And I promise you, IF I ever felt ôcontemptö and ôloathingö for a enemy as you profess to feel for Star Fraction I wouldnÆt be content to let them base two jumps from my ôcapital systemö without significant attempts to dislodge them from the foothold with some good old-fashioned space combat. I'd certainly not be prepared to let them idle around the gates of your home and blow up your allies without any substantive response.
So yes, I acknowledge we have probably earned your hatred Keorythe. We came to providence to settle a score with you (and in the process bring the CVA to the realization they needed to defend a ôholderö alliance 24/7). You attacked one of our ships in the spring, in return weÆve destroyed an estimated 28billion worth of your shipping. Driven whole corporations from your alliance, destroyed an allied alliance. WeÆve prevented you from growing and exploiting the space you were given. WeÆve made it impossible for you to travel freely in space. Your mission-runners, ratters, traders and industrials live in fear of us. WeÆve certainly brought the pain to KBP so I acknowledge Keorythe. You are right to feel upset and angry. But if you can see through those emotions then at some point you probably need to see through to the true cause of your pain and the mistake that led you to follow the CVA standings regime and attack a (then neutral) Star Fraction vessel in the service of your Amarr overlords. I wonder if granted the power of foresight back then if that Sev3rance pilot would have rather respected our neutrality and held fire.
Who knows?
And to your last point about how "personal" this feels. You simply misunderstand. This is our "game" Keorythe. Its the whole reason Star Fraction plays Eve and its the reason people join us. Our game is about shooting territorial tyrants and bad guys in the name of radical freespace and freedom of choice. Its not personal, we see you as your characters. You are "roleplaying" CVA's "slaver hounds" in Providence. You chose to work for them. We're simply enriching your gameplay experience by providing the opposition to your chosen role in Eve.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
M00dy
Killed In Action The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.14 17:47:00 -
[146]
/me ♥'s Jade.
Killed In Action The Crimson Federation
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.14 17:50:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Back in my PIE days I was "involved" in the SF/PIE "war". The impression you had on the people in PIE was basically as if all the children in the local kindergarden sat in the local sandbox playing. One child then started throwing sand in everyone else's eyes. Very soon noone could be bothered to play at all (this is also what I was referring to above when saying "sandbox" and "throwing sand"). The impression you came across with basically ruined what could have been a fun experience for all. Wether that impression was deliberate or not, it certainly had the effect of a lot of people turning away and concentrating on other things. Personally, I think that was a shame.
All I can Octavinus is your impression was wrong. Personally I feel that the reason you didn't "enjoy" the SF/PIE war has a lot to do with what Swamp Zero had to say in this thread a little while ago. Amarrian roleplayers had had a long history of pretty much endless victory against their chosen opponents in the couple of years previous. And its easy to be urbane and pleasant when you are winning each night and blowing up dozens of enemy warships. Everytime you obliterate an enemy fleet the mind subsconsciously wants to type "GF" (with a big grin on your face). But the reality is its much harder to keep a sense of perspective and mutual respect when you are losing. The SF vs PIE matchup in the spring was not a fair matchup. We knew that from the beginning. It was a blitzkrieg campaign designed to suppress PIE and have you ask for allied support so we'd get to take on the whole Amarrian bloc at one time and ultimately it worked.
But this wasn't about smack or local disrespect. SF pilots always keep a high standard of personal control on those issues. This was about frustrations from your side that the war was one-sided and we always outnumbered and outgunned you and as your old guard chose to go innactive and absent themelves from the front lines things got worse and worse for the matchups. I understand all this and (as I said to Keorythe above) I sympathize with the anger and frustration felt. But its wise after the event to have a little self analysis and understand where it truly comes from. End of the day Octavinus we didn't wardec PIE to get "fun fights". We wardecced PIE to hurt you badly enough in material losses that CVA felt obliged to intervene and bail you out. We wanted to fight the CVA outside of Providence and their allies there and we accomplished that task by staking you out as the "judas goat" on that occasion.
Quote: Unfortunately, it seems pretty much the same thing is happening between SF and Severence right now.
In many ways yes it is. But its an unavoidable part of the kind of warfare we have to do to get manageable fights from CVA. Until we get to the stage where SF and allies can stand toe-to-toe with CVA(Providence)+IAC and whoever in a pitched fleet fight we are going to be fighting "dirty" and picking on CVA allies and hurting them in such ways we can until the CVA feel obliged to come defend them and thereby commit to fighting on our terms. Where its a probably a little worse for Sev3rance is that they consider themselves "non-roleplayers" who are are being picked upon by "roleplayers" but the the reality is that we consider they have made a roleplay choice to act as the CVA's "slaver hounds" and placed themselves in this situation by attacking one of our ships.
Ultimately you can tell who is most confident in most conflicts by looking to see who looks upset, who looks frustrated and bitter. I think its very apparent that SF (and Ushra'khan) are very happy with the current situation and the gameplay experience we can offer to our respective memberbase. We are roleplaying underdogs and freedom fighters and revolutionaries with unconventional tactics, courage and panache. This is our perfect game Octavinus. This thread is about US having fun.
I wouldn't expect you guys to enjoy it.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Snakester
Caldari Blood and Money Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 18:15:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Jade Constantine You attacked one of our ships in the spring, in return weÆve destroyed an estimated 28billion worth of your shipping.
Where have u gotten this 28 billion estimate from Jade?. i'd like to know.
Again , from your (SF) KB, stats for Sev3rance.
Alliance details - Sev3rance Kills: 329 Losses: 461 Damage done (ISK): 16781.1M Damage received (ISK): 17873.04M Efficiency: 48.42% Ship class K L Assault frigate 17 14 Battlecruiser 21 76 Battleship 75 72 Black Ops 0 0 Cap. Industrial 0 0 Capsule 56 135 Ship class K L Carrier 1 1 Command ship 11 8 Covert ops 29 20 Cruiser 16 36 Destroyer 0 5 Dreadnought 0 0 Ship class K L Electronic Attack Ship 1 0 Exhumer 0 2 Freighter 0 1 Frigate 2 14 Heavy assault 29 17 Heavy Interdictor 1 0 Ship class K L Industrial 0 23 Interceptor 41 4 Interdictor 6 1 Jump Freighter 0 0 Logistics 3 0 Marauder 0 0 Ship class K L Mining barge 0 4 Mothership 0 0 Recon ship 18 10 Shuttle 0 11 Titan 0 0 Transport 1 4 It seems rather even in all honesty, and to think, SF are all PvPr's, whilst only i'd say 20% of -7- are , anyone remember Miner's with Pitchforks?.
Snake.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Spoon Thumb
Paladin Imperium
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Posted - 2008.01.14 18:21:00 -
[149]
I can only assume someone else will try this and wonder why it didn't work so well
I think -7- are just a bit hacked off at getting told they lost after they just won, after months of fighting in which they had war dec from not only star fraction, but Tri as well for much of that time.
Remember, this is CAOD not the usual RP forums, even though all of Jade's post could easily be in character.
As for recruitment (and don't be fooled, this is as much an advertisement for SF as a battle report), if you want to roleplay one of those arsey students who still think Marx was onto something
Also I love the sub-headings:
Defeat the CVA in Providence.
Glorious really!
Muhhahhahahah. Or are they?
Just go back and read the detail especially on that top one, look at the facts on the ground and make your own mind up.
Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists
Recruiting |
Keorythe
Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 18:50:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Keorythe on 14/01/2008 18:55:19
Originally by: Jade Constantine
All that is being posted now from Sev3rance is a fresh (well I hesitate to call it psyops) shall I just say initiative to try to vent your (considerable) frustrations on Star Fraction at your own disappointment at not being able to hold space in Providence without the more or less full time support of a larger power (CVA). Its rather painfully transparent and something that is noted by the huge majority of neutral commentators on this thread.
I'm afraid that its neither transparent nor applicable in this case Ms. Constantine. Neither side was able to do much with the threat of TRI in the area. Neither SF nor Sev were able to do more than battle at the gates which happened frequently. Please remember that Sev3rance was decced by TRI, Star Fraction was not. We wont even get into the neutral commentators thing.
Quote: Still, onto your point about the Towers. You are missing the point. While TRI were tying up CVA we had capital ships in KBP and you couldnÆt counter them without CVA support. This whole discussion is about me saying that Sev3rance was on the point of defeat and was saved ultimately by the TRI pullout and CVAÆs full intervention in your favour and thus far absolutely nothing posted by any Sev3rance speaker on this thread has disputed this analysis in any substantive or credible way. We had space superiority and in-system capital ship assets. Doesn't matter how you set up your Towers, they go down to a Dreadnaught fleet unless you have full CVA support and intervention. We all know this, you know this, CVA know this. Its silly to keep debating the point really.
Once again I beg to differ. An attempt was made when your towers were originally placed. In the middle of the op intel came in that a rather huge TRI gang heavy on the battleships was enroute. The op was scrapped and no attempt was made until they left. Sev3rance had its own heavy compliment of caps in system {the ones listed in the tower killmails ) the entire time and was prepared to use them. Cynoing in some capitals in not a major accomplishment especially when cyno jammers are a relatively new thing. Tower spam during off hours to take sovereignty isn't a major accomplisment either. Claiming space superiority without proof is fairly easy to do as is claiming you're a Swiss kangaroo. Fact of the matter is that our towers were never removed by your forces for the same reasons that we couldn't have a go at yours. Once again, proof or stfu.
Quote: And I promise you, IF I ever felt ôcontemptö and ôloathingö for a enemy as you profess to feel for Star Fraction I wouldnÆt be content to let them base two jumps from my ôcapital systemö without significant attempts to dislodge them from the foothold with some good old-fashioned space combat.
I believe every corp/alliance who has done empire war knows how fun it is to "dislodge" an enemy from npc stations. I also believe anyone who has every fought you knows empire war (and stations) is your specialty. Nice try there.
Quote: WeÆve prevented you from growing and exploiting the space you were given.
I'm sorry, what? You know we had some initial problems in the beginning adapting to the perma-war thing trying to get most of the carebears to understand that you can't fly haulers in empire. We even lost a freighter like that. Since then we've adapted and exploited our territory just fine thank you. If you keep saying that we "fear" you then maybe it will happen. However, currently you're only at the "pain in the rear" stage.
What you've done Ms. Constantine is helped this alliance separate the wheat from the chaff. Shown us how to settle into a real war footing. Given us experience in combat logistics, rethinking profit strategies, and even how to setup our POS's. We've recruited new members and corporations willing to be involved on such a footing. You've given us ideas for combat and strategies for countering them. Our operations have slowly expanded as we learn to cope with the war as other alliances have already in their own wars. As much as you keep repeating it we aren't going to just go away and your efforts are making us much more stronger. If anything the combat experience was sorely needed and we actually have to thank you for helping us shore up those gaps.
Yes you've killed some of our ships (the freighter loss did hurt). We returned the favor according to your boards. Although we dont plan to doctor our killboards by restating ship losses at "jita mineral" prices like you have done despite constructing everything ourselves.
So far 3 months on a permanent war footing down and Sev3rance is still kicking it strong with another year to go. By anyone's account thats a pretty good track record there.
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