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Flashpoint Providence - AAR - Operation Fedaykin

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Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:11:00 - [1] Operation Fedaykin û KBP System. 11-12 Jan 2008. Situation. Over Christmas KBP system (Headquarters of the CVA ôholderö/ ôpetö Alliance Sev3rance which had been under siege by the combined forces of Star Fraction and the UshraÆkhan) became the focus of a change of strategy. After many months of conventional warfare and various attacks on the Cyno Jammer array operated by Sev3rance with Battleship Heavy groups, the allied freedom-fighters chose to disable the Cyno Jammer indirectly by establishing a rival sovereignty-claiming large tower network to interrupt the Sev3rance claim and reset their meta-sovereignty value (reduced from the ô3ö the cyno jammer no longer functions). The Tower deployment was successful and with the Sev3rance Cyno Jammer neutralised; SF, UshraÆkhan, Eternal Rapture and other allies brought capital ships directly into KBP to continue the campaign and assemble sufficient Dreadnaught hulls to threaten the Sev3rance large POS network directly in order to force military confrontation (Sev3rance conventional forces already having been badly mauled already by almost 2 months of continuous warfare). This was almost the end for Sev3rance. The pressure was growing, their space fleet largely impotent and helpless with the CVA fleet generally POSÆed and docked from the threat of Triumvirate and morale inside the CVA holder alliance was diminished and threadbare. (Many alliance defections occurred, individuals, whole corps, while general numbers of active pilots suffered badly.) External factors however would ultimately determine the outcome of this strategy. The Triumvirate offensive in Providence was abruptly curtailed following the intervention of IAC and Goonswarm forces in their favour at the critical moments of the Inflatable House siege and almost overnight CVA was left with nothing else in Providence to distract their focus. In the ordinary state of affairs its important to note that CVA generally outnumbers SF/UshraÆkhan and allies by a ratio of 10-1 on paper, but generally 2-3x1 in fleet battles. CVA can count on a primetime levy from their supporters in Providence from Paxton, CSA, Slyph, Sev3rance and (if its really important) from IAC and their friends of around 150-200 conventional ships, and around 30 capital ship hulls (2 Motherships). Conversely SF/UK led forces tend to max at around 60-70 conventional ships, and around a dozen capital ships with a pair of Motherships. The reality is we cannot win a conventional fleet battle against the fully mustered Providence levies. We know this. CVA knows this û it underpins and empathises the essentially asymmetrical nature of the war in Providence. We can make ground when the CVA is otherwise distracted or threatened, we can score victories in skirmish and limited engagements and we can achieve objectives with rapid deployment and hit and run tactics. ItÆs the nature of Eve combat that while you can make up a certain level of numerical disadvantage with superior tactics and manoeuvre you are not going to dislodge a sitting territorial power while outnumbered 3-1 against. You can win every skirmish fight in space. But when it comes down to POS reinforcement battles itÆs a numbers game end of the day. This is fact, this is reality, and itÆs a reality all anti CVA forces in Providence live with daily. So with Triumvirate gone from Providence it had become increasingly obvious that the UshraÆkhan sovereignty challenge through deployed towers was a tactic living on borrowed time. CVA had pulled out all the stops to outnumber the Triumvitate conventional and capital fleets in their own home system in defence of the Inflatable House outpost, and had spent weeks in disciplined avoidance of overt capital ship engagements for fear of becoming entangled in a serious slugfest where their capital assets would be risked. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:11:00 - [2] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/01/2008 02:12:06 Now the restraint was gone. CVA had no hindrance in deploying the large conventional and capital fleets necessary to sweep away UK towers and aside from throwing fleets away at frankly terrible odds there was very little we could do. Sev3rance sovereignty was saved by the bell û with the Providence levy fleet at their sole defence it was inevitable also that we would never be able to win an offensive POS reinforcement battle and in a matter of weeks the sovereignty3 would be back and with it the Cyno-Jammer. What to do? I suspect many forces faced with the overpowering numerical advantage that the CVA maintains in Providence would simply have packed up the towers and withdrew quietly in the night. Others would have declared the end of the ôroadtripö and moved to more fruitful warzones. But this isnÆt a fight like other fights, and we arenÆt contesting territory for territoryÆs sake here. ItÆs a war of ideology, of roleplay, of revenge, of challenge. And lets face it, for organizations like Star Fraction and UshraÆkhan the filthy slaver empire of tyrants and puling holder pets in Providence is the endgame content others crave. ItÆs a massively long-term campaign. They have all the advantages of numbers, POS mechanics, game environment, recruitment, out of region allies, the list goes on. But we have something that is massively precious too û the challenge and the lure of the underdog, the desire and ambition to achieve a miracle and do something nobody has ever done before. Defeat the CVA in Providence. And fundamentally when all is said and done, whoever manages to do this thing is going to write themselves into the history of Eve and gain their immortality in this virtual universe of political thrust and counter thrust and deadly conflict in space. But this stage of the Offensive in KBP was definitely coming to the end. Our towers were going down. Sev3rance were going to get their sovereignty3 back. CVA fleet was unbeatable. Numbers were against and heads were going down. What we needed was a miracle. What we got was: Operation Fedaykin The concept. Trinity brought something new into the game. Black Ops Battleships and covert jump tunnelling û this is a technology that can allow a smaller force to by-pass gate camps and move directly to a covert cyno field in the target system for a staging point. The covert cyno is well, covert. So the enemy cannot immediately find the staging point and from there you can move directly to combat with enemies in the target system. More good news is the pure number of smaller hulls it is possible to propel through the jump tunnel (our tests showed the SIN class Black Ops battleship could hurl 61 stealth bomber hulls through the ether to the destination cyno). Next the configuration of Bombers, Bombers are cheap. Hulls from private sources average 5-8m isk a unit. We decided on a configuration ôdeath commandoö that utilised tech1 fitted Cruise Missiles firing appropriate faction weapon loads (60 in the breech, 120 in the bay) tech1 Sensor Boosters, (for range and lock speed) with Manticore and Nemesis brand ships sporting Sensor Dampers for defence. All vessels with as many tech1 damage mods as possible, simple, cheap, and as direct as a punch to the face. We stockpiled a lot of these Bombers in the empire jump-off system. We called a muster for various pilots to gather at the Bomber base and laid our plans. We knew CVA was going to be hitting the UshraÆkhan Tower network with 20+ Dreadnaughts. We knew theyÆd have 150+ conventional ships bubbling all gates into the system. We knew theyÆd be running a high quality 30+ sniper support group for the capitals. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:12:00 - [3] Our original idea with the Bombers was to combine the effect of a Strong Tower defence with directed Large Artillery Batteries guided by POS gunnery with the sudden appearance of 75+ ôdeath commandoö brand Stealth Bombers for an additional alpha strike of +100,000 damage and ongoing 7500 dps to break the tanks of selected dreadnaughts committed to siege mode. We wanted to demonstrate that tech1 equipment on cheap hulls could achieve a miracle against the odds and give the freedom fighter and the anarchist the ability to do what no other entity has ever done, and thatÆs get the better of the CVA capital fleet on POS deployment in a completely asymmetric engagement. CVA however moved quicker than we thought they would and reinforced the Towers before UshraÆkhan had a chance to upgrade the weaponry to pure capital ship killing mode and while we were given the advantage of knowing precisely when their Capital fleet would be vulnerable we knew weÆd get no more than one siege cycle as a window of opportunity as their 20+ dreads hammered the remaining 25% shields of the Towers coming out of reinforcement. This meant we were trying an untested tactic live with a rushed muster in support of very average towers largely unsuited to our preference. But it was now or never. Once the towers were gone there would be no motive for CVA to deploy capital ships in KBP in the future and the chance would take a long time to come again. So the Operation went live, we advanced the timescale, invited allies and fitted out Stealth Bombers. We prepped 3 Black Ops Battleships for redundancy and heavier load (in case we had unexpectedly good numbers) and waited for the deadline for deployment to come. I watched the target POS from my Cloaked Rapier and made warp-ins for the group in KBP and anxiously relayed the time to reinforcement mode dropping to the gang on ventrillo as people double checked their loadouts, launched into space and warped in beside the SIN class Blackops serving as our primary SB caster while in KBP the covert cyno operator signalled all was well and all systems were ready for the call. 23:21 û the POS came out of reinforced. We were on tenderhooks and full alert. Logistics commanders in SF were reporting weÆd peaked at around 50 Stealth Bombers on this rushed muster. Not enough sadly, but we wanted to make the test and see just how capable this new tactic could be. A few minutes later CVA Dreadnaught fleet warped to the preload point for its attack on the first tower and I watched the group warp-in to a perfect position around 60 klicks below my Rapier. UshraÆkhan POS gunners selected a Nalgafar class Dreadnaught the primary for their guns and I called the jump-bridge live. 50 Stealth Bombers hurled across several systems from Naeel to KBP and emerged at our covert scout a few hundred thousand kilometres from the contested POS. I declared a 10klick warpin from the Rapier and almost immediately a swarm of ôdeath commandoö class Bombers appeared in space and began to fire volleys of 150 faction cruise missles against the target Dreadnaught. But as we feared, it wasnÆt enough raw damage. We managed to get the Dreadnaught to around 60% armour in a couple of minutes but CVA responded with a standoff Sniper fleet and close range indictor/captor tackle wing. We switched targets to support vessels but our bombers were dying fast and there were glitches in the overview setups, people unused to the controls, general confusion and eventually we called a bail from the POS. UK gunners continued the valiant defence to the bitter end scoring several kills but never seriously discomforting the dreadnaught fleet. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:13:00 - [4] This wasnÆt the end for Operation Fedaykin! Everyone had been asked to bring multiple reloads of bombers, switch to implant free clones, and set the clone base to Naeel. Anyone podded in combat was waking up in the empire staging base and reshipping immediately. Others went to lurk points at the Dital Gate and we arranged a serious of gate-busting bomber-wing attacks to clear the route for capsule escapes and reshipping the conventional way. On the whole these were very successful indeed. And the tech1 fitted ôdeath commandosö were downing HACÆs, Recons, Ceptors and creating havoc at the Amarrian gate gangs with each pass. We were getting the hang of this! The logistics really was the triumph û with our Blackops and Covert pilots ensuring a continuous stream of reinforcements while our Bomber Wing was keeping the gates clear and plunging on targets of opportunity all over the system. Every reported that aside from the pure tactical accomplishment of this concept it was (to quote a player new to the whole business of 0.0 warfare on this scale) ôBloody good fun!ö We made a second attempt on a Dreadnaught (Moros Class) at the next UK Tower to come out of reinforced but this one had even weaker guns than the first, and we never really got off the ground on the business of breaking its tank û but we did switch sooner to the support fleet and scored more casualties in the confusion of the melee. Once again the Tower buckled quickly and we were back to skirmishing at the gates and obliterating anything foolish enough to try to tank an average 35 Bombers worth of cruise missile alphastrike. With two Towers down the CVA chose to withdraw their Capital and Conventional fleets for the time being and we took the opportunity to have a well deserved cup of tea as well. Then ôthe horror!ö I noticed that with the CVA out of system and with our Bombers taking their ease at the rally point it seemed that Sev3rance had descended on the wreckage of the UK towers with haulers and were busy looting the field unanchoring things like so many scavenger beetles coming out in the twilight of the engagement. This could not stand! We descended on the CVA pets like wolves on sheep and blew their haulers to pieces and scattered their hastily assembled fleet in a furious counterattack that saw us wreck an Absolution and a wing of assault frigates in a couple of minutes of cruise-missile spamming ecstasy before guarding the debris field and allowing UshraÆkhan to loot their own dead towers in peace. WasnÆt quite the end for the test-run yet though, an unfortunate United-Legion gang chanced to pass through the system and made a significant error of judgement by engaging the Broadsword class HIC IÆd reshipped to by that point and found itself suddenly impaled on dozens and dozens of cruise missiles ripping their fleet to useless burning chunks of metal before my shields were appreciably threatened. Glorious really! Sadly though that was it for the defence of KBP, the next UK towers were coming out later in the morning and we couldnÆt sustain numbers enough to keep the tactic viable or approach the fifty weÆd had at peak û let alone the 75 we felt we needed to truly threaten an enemy dreadnaught. But there was one last test I personally wanted to try. ôLowsec Pirate Baiting by Cyno-Hictor.ö In the Bleak Lands live the Muffinmen. A pirate corp with decent numbers and a predilection for smartbombing incoming traffic at the gates, they are also quite paranoid and maintain an extensive network of alt spies within 2 jumps in all directions of the place they are camping. Wily opponents and very hard to get a decent engagement from and after all û why should they fight fair? These are pirates after all û they kill people for a living and they arenÆt there for our entertainmentà. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:14:00 - [5] Muhhahhahahah. Or are they? My ship the ûJFS- ôJudas Goatö. A Devoter class HIC. Filthy Armour tank and resists, cap injector, webber, infinite strength focused disruptor, cyno generator and some little pop guns to get on the killmail. We moved the Black Ops ships and attendant Stealth Bomber swarm to within range of the Bleak Lands and I began to troll up ôrough tradeö in the Muffinmen claimed ôterritoryö where they do their ugly business on a nightly rotation of patrol. Eventually a Zealot, Pilgrim, Vagabond group checked me out and obviously waited on scouting reports before moving into the Gate I was sitting at while a criminally flagged Abaddon class Battleship arrived and locked me up without even a by or leave or ôhows your father?ö I think I surprised them by locking on the scrambler and lumbering out to meet my battleship playmate with a friendly web to make sure he really wasnÆt going anywhere before turning on the Cyno field and lighting the reppers. They probably expected a Mothership. Instead they got a swarm of ôdeath commandoö bombers that hadnÆt quite had enough killing for the evening and they managed to blow the Abaddon into next week with focused cruise missile bombardment and chased the rest to warp with all due despatch. (Next time we add a few ArazuÆs to the mix). Still it was a perfect end to the test and while over the course of the evening we had indeed lost A LOT of Stealth Bombers, weÆd proven the concept was sound in practise and given a lot of our allied pilots and friends A LOT of fun. Much to our surprise the Stealth Bombers performed well even in the moderate lag environment around the POS with CVA support fleet barrelling in. The logistics worked a treat and the tactical surprise possible with jump bridging was genuinely beautiful to work with. So, there you go. Flashy cyno-field/jump bridge gate-camp bypassing shenanigans are no longer the exclusive remit of territorial alliances with high levels of sovereignty and Mothership pilots. Star Fraction and the UshraÆkhan share with the community the secret of causing absolute havoc with Blackops Battleships and a swarm of tech1 fitted Bombers! Be our guest. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:14:00 - [6] Epilogue The Battle for Sovereignty in KBP is largely over for now. The CVA returned in the early morning and destroyed the last of the UK towers but that was very much an forgone conclusion and as IÆve earlier said, without the ability to contest the Providence levy of 150+ conventional ships + Capital fleet there is no practical way that SF and UK can destroy Sev3rance towers at their reinforcement timer or defend UK towers against concentrated attack in turn. We knew it was inevitable the Tower challenge would end the moment Triumvirate were forced to withdraw from Providence since unless CVA can be distracted by another force to balance the engagements we literally do not have the manpower to win the fleet slugfests. So for now Sovereignty goes back to Sev3rance in KBP and in a couple of weeks the Cyno Jammer will be going back into force and CVA Providence will be whole again in those terms. In the current state of the game I donÆt really think direct attacks on Cyno Jammers are practical for conventional ships so this is how it will stay until these things get rebalanced at some point on dev oversight in the future. But thatÆs not the end of the war for us. The guerrilla fighter gets used to back and forth of battle and the changing winds of fortune. Over the course of the last months of war weÆve gotten strong, recruited decent pilots, tried out things weÆve never tried before. We placed a Mothership in the middle of a dicy fleet battle with CVA and generally had a great time. We have no intention of releasing Sev3rance from the Empire war declaration that remains ongoing and unless CVA are prepared to make a long term commitment in KBP system I expect a return to the conflict of Cloak and POS shields we saw in the autumn. With SF and UshraÆkhan running raiding fleets and hitting Sev3rance and their immediate allies with hit and run gangs and opportunity conflict whenever the chance arises. The Tower Siege of KBP is over. The long war goes on. From here Star Fraction has a busy year ahead. WeÆve got recruits to recruit. Tactics to refine, ships to equip. We know what we need to do to make an impact in Providence and we need allies to do it. But say what you want about the free captains, nobody can doubt weÆve got styleà "I might not have meant anything by it"
torN Deception GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:16:00 - [7] lots of words, not reading, posting anywayz
Grainsalt Free-Corp Foundation Liberty Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:16:00 - [8] Yes i did just read all that, and frickin good idea... I am glad I have skilled up for a widow too as thats sounds cool. but 60+ via a SIN? --- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=554257
OmegaKnight The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:18:00 - [9] Good lord, thats just too much.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:22:00 - [10] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/01/2008 02:22:24 Originally by: Grainsalt Yes i did just read all that, and frickin good idea... I am glad I have skilled up for a widow too as thats sounds cool. but 60+ via a SIN? You need to fit cargo expanders and if you were really hardcore then I guess cargo rigs too. The real eye-opener for us was just how many Stealth Bombers you can send in comparison to recons. But there is no practical reason why you couldn't have several blackops in the gang and send a selection of tasty Arazu's, Falcons, Pilgrims and Rapiers in the mix. (of course it does make the whole show more expensive) Operation Fedaykin was all about the cheap rifles delivered by hitech jump bridging. "I might not have meant anything by it"

Grainsalt Free-Corp Foundation Liberty Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:23:00 - [11] Just to re-iterate... The idea of "mini-portaling" stealth bombers on mass via what is effectively mobile stargates (Black ops)... is one of the most underused new features that eve offers.. Glad to see some aspect of it in place here. --- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=554257
laotse The Flying Dutchmen Antesignani Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:23:00 - [12] pff wall of text is back http://80.126.192.128:8888/tfd/uploads/1121735338/gallery_11_8_1124480365.jpg Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Grainsalt Yes i did just read all that, and frickin good idea... ^This And as a bomber pilot, I especially love it. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Grainsalt Free-Corp Foundation Liberty Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:28:00 - [14] Originally by: laotse pff wall of text is back I will give you the cliff(sp?) notes... They did what other people do .. Black ops portaling .. but on mass .. and to some nice effects.. But enemy came back in force and drove them back.. They also did it in a way that most black ops pilots dont like to do and become like some titan pilots and that is "a talking stargate". Just goes to show that logistics really is king. --- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=554257
Grainsalt Free-Corp Foundation Liberty Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:30:00 - [15] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Grainsalt Yes i did just read all that, and frickin good idea... ^This And as a bomber pilot, I especially love it. Yes, and the fact that it is perfectly suited to the goons is especially scarey... --- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=554257
duckmonster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 02:49:00 - [16] Edited by: duckmonster on 13/01/2008 02:50:49 That sounded like a heck of a lot of fun. As a Stealth Bomber fan, I aprove. But CVA are the good guys, keeping Providence safe from the filthy slaves and Anarchists. Just putting that out there. I'm going to assume however that the SF have a BPO, because stealth bombers aren't that cheap. -----------
Niranen Einar CorLeonis Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.01.13 03:04:00 - [17] Definitely going to have to give that a try. Sounds like a good time was had there Jade, I'm envious.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 03:06:00 - [18] Originally by: duckmonster Edited by: duckmonster on 13/01/2008 02:50:49 That sounded like a heck of a lot of fun. As a Stealth Bomber fan, I aprove. But CVA are the good guys, keeping Providence safe from the filthy slaves and Anarchists. Just putting that out there. I'm going to assume however that the SF have a BPO, because stealth bombers aren't that cheap. We got all but Purifiers at cost, and I picked up the purifiers at 10m from jita in freighter. So yeah, pretty cheap on the whole. One thing we noted from the whole show was just how little lag our SB wing actually seemed to cause itself. I put that down to the self tracking of missiles, no drones, and only 4 discrete hull types for the grid to load. And because we made no lag the whole thing was much more playable. (for comparison) if we've played in the past with 50 BS's vs the CVA uberblob the whole thing becomes a slideshow lagfest in about 60secs flat. Maybe there is something to this "fight through the lag thing" and it has to do with picking friendly fleet composition that doesn't cause overt Laggyness. Worth mulling over. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Vasili Z Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2008.01.13 03:21:00 - [19] I read it, pretty cool. ------- Everything I say represents my corporation and their views.
Zardock Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.13 03:26:00 - [20] Before I grab a cup of coffee to read the jade'wall'o'text I have to say Welcome back Jade.

BoB sucks Burning Bush Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.13 03:38:00 - [21] Edited by: BoB sucks on 13/01/2008 03:38:23 Originally by: Zardock Before I grab a cup of coffee to read the jade'wall'o'text I have to say Welcome back Jade. Coffee? please tell me your not fluent in English. Otherwise, read at a 3rd grade level much?
Astasia Orian Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.13 03:40:00 - [22] Your posts genuinely add something to the game experience Jade :)
jdok Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 03:50:00 - [23] Best fleet fight night I've ever had. At first I thought this was just one of jade's crazy schemes... Well, I still think that, but it worked bloody well!
Kylegar Caldari Shadow Of The Light	Posted - 2008.01.13 03:53:00 - [24] That would have been crazy fun to play in...Good Thinking! -- Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2008.01.13 04:40:00 - [25] tl;dr, i dont normally like what you have to say anyway
Gjs312 The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.13 05:11:00 - [26] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: duckmonster Edited by: duckmonster on 13/01/2008 02:50:49 That sounded like a heck of a lot of fun. As a Stealth Bomber fan, I aprove. But CVA are the good guys, keeping Providence safe from the filthy slaves and Anarchists. Just putting that out there. I'm going to assume however that the SF have a BPO, because stealth bombers aren't that cheap. We got all but Purifiers at cost, and I picked up the purifiers at 10m from jita in freighter. So yeah, pretty cheap on the whole. One thing we noted from the whole show was just how little lag our SB wing actually seemed to cause itself. I put that down to the self tracking of missiles, no drones, and only 4 discrete hull types for the grid to load. And because we made no lag the whole thing was much more playable. (for comparison) if we've played in the past with 50 BS's vs the CVA uberblob the whole thing becomes a slideshow lagfest in about 60secs flat. Maybe there is something to this "fight through the lag thing" and it has to do with picking friendly fleet composition that doesn't cause overt Laggyness. Worth mulling over. Or, mabey they finally decided to reinforce that god-forsaken providence node after all the action its seen recently . (Seriously I thought it was a rumor, but providence really did seem to lag worse then any region I have ever played in, I dunno )
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 05:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Gjs312 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: duckmonster Edited by: duckmonster on 13/01/2008 02:50:49 That sounded like a heck of a lot of fun. As a Stealth Bomber fan, I aprove. But CVA are the good guys, keeping Providence safe from the filthy slaves and Anarchists. Just putting that out there. I'm going to assume however that the SF have a BPO, because stealth bombers aren't that cheap. We got all but Purifiers at cost, and I picked up the purifiers at 10m from jita in freighter. So yeah, pretty cheap on the whole. One thing we noted from the whole show was just how little lag our SB wing actually seemed to cause itself. I put that down to the self tracking of missiles, no drones, and only 4 discrete hull types for the grid to load. And because we made no lag the whole thing was much more playable. (for comparison) if we've played in the past with 50 BS's vs the CVA uberblob the whole thing becomes a slideshow lagfest in about 60secs flat. Maybe there is something to this "fight through the lag thing" and it has to do with picking friendly fleet composition that doesn't cause overt Laggyness. Worth mulling over. Or, mabey they finally decided to reinforce that god-forsaken providence node after all the action its seen recently . (Seriously I thought it was a rumor, but providence really did seem to lag worse then any region I have ever played in, I dunno ) I have to agree. In ordinary circumstances Providence lags terribly - but I think there is something to the kind of ships involved in the engagement too. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Waagaa Ktlehr Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.13 05:45:00 - [28] Awesome post Jade. Nice display of out-of-the box thinking and succesfull deployment of Black Ops. :) - -
Ackaroth D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.13 06:01:00 - [29] Great writeup, engaging read. As always, respect to SF, always bring it. ___________________ Add total value of open buy and sell orders to "Orders" tab of wallet. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=626498
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 06:14:00 - [30] normally id mock the wall of text if you were talking about roleplaying or politics but this is actually pretty awesome

Elektrea Minmatar Happy hOur Mining and industry Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.13 06:19:00 - [31] I like your style of writting Happy HOur Minning and Industry Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Saraith Narr Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.13 09:48:00 - [32] Edited by: Saraith Narr on 13/01/2008 09:50:42 Wow, first Jade post in relation to something I was involved in, and I got to say, I can see why all of us in the Amarrian bloc look forward to your posts with great glee... In summation, you failed to hinder the ships that actually mattered, you managed to stop the looting of a single POS (Newsflash: we looted the other six) and your massed bombers engaged us twice that I saw before the fleet disbanded, once at the first POS and once at the Dital gate. In fairness, all those bombs raining down looked cool, but you achieved practically nothing from assembling your bomber wing. I suppose at least you attempted to fight, which I salute you for, but why you need to spin an outright loss into somekind of epic victory is beyond me. Anyway, Im sure you'll flame this to hell, and I really just wanted to say I'd posted in a Jade thread, so thanks for letting me live the dream. And Ushra'Khan owe me an Executioner, I'll accept a replacement or the ISK equilavent. Originally by: The Mittani normally id mock the wall of text if you were talking about roleplaying or politics but this is actually pretty awesome CVA only ever win anything because of theyre IAC/Goon masters, you should be smacking Jade for us. If they learn of this treachery, you may find your Providence rent witheld. Good day to you sir, I say good day!
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 10:11:00 - [33] I was about to say this is pretty awesome, then I remember the nerdy local chats, the limitless spam of rp whenever possible, the ****ty sec status of providence, the pettyness of sides accusing other sides of bringing allies so I won't say a thing :V
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.13 10:17:00 - [34] Originally by: Swamp Ziro I was about to say this is pretty awesome, then I remember the nerdy local chats, the limitless spam of rp whenever possible, the ****ty sec status of providence, the pettyness of sides accusing other sides of bringing allies so I won't say a thing :V Innovative tactics and good fights do loose their appeal when there are RP nerds involved, so true. Without some decent smacktalk and some l337 speek in local its really not worth it. That said, it was a good fight and props to all involved, especially at SF/UK for the bomberblob. Just a pity we had to endure all that RP... ----------------------------------------------
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.01.13 10:35:00 - [35] Impressive fireworks if not much else. I especially enjoyed the manifold explosions of enemy ships. Now recruiting!
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 10:42:00 - [36] Drunkpost time! Rare for me, but since this is an "out of character" forum, I'll indulge myself. SF, like many "roleplay" organizations, are strong in the ways of combat mechanics. Stronger than many of the major alliances might give them ("us," as roleplay organizations, really) credit for. I wasn't present for their stealth bomber stunt, but it was a worthwhile effort using the new toys ccp has recently given us, and a bit unconventional...which is nicely within Star Fraction's approach to Eve. Unconventional defines them through and through. I'll disagree with the assessment that -7- was close to collapse, and with the implications that CVA can only win against SF due to numerical superiority, and indeed that CVA used numerical superiority on any level to survive the month-long TRI seige of Providence...but I'm happy to credit SF with causing enough pressure against -7- to draw the direct attention of the CVA and the utilization of such numbers (the classic "we didn't need such force, but we used it anyway" approach.) I figure the writing has been on the wall for CVA since our conquest of Ushra'Khan in Providence: we've proved a degree of combat prowess which continues to attract greater pressure for the sake of fun fights (the latest of which came from TRI) which will no doubt ultimately culminate in attracting an organization not only capable of conquering CVA space, but willing to fully commit the resources required to do so. I suppose the main reason this hasn't happened yet is because Providence ain't really worth the effort in and of itself. Conquering CVA to say "we conquered CVA," however, might become an objective worth achieving within the new year. Time will tell, I suppose. In the mean time, I hope CVA keeps the war against SF in place. If nothing else...we need the extra pressure in Empire space. Too many lazy habits have developed as we become more comfortable with our reliance, as an alliance, on 0.0 space.
Bishop 5 Gallente The Flying Tigers STELLAR LEGION	Posted - 2008.01.13 11:15:00 - [37] @ OP - very good read, well writen. Thanks for that. <3 ------------- meh
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216	Posted - 2008.01.13 11:20:00 - [38] Nicely allocuted, Jade. I regret I fell asleep just before travelling down to the KBP7-G battlefield - I would have liked to see the implementation of the 'sin-bomb' tactic. However, it was nice to be able to wake up to find there were 4 more pos to destroy. I've noticed that for the first time, you haven't included any clear assessments of how much in the way or kills or losses each side took in this operation. You also didn't mention what each side effectively achieved as a result - is this to become a habit? I like it. I'm also interested in the etymology of this word 'fedaykin'. Was it inspired by Dune or a word you by chance put together from other existing words? San Matari Official forums
Kebabski coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.13 11:49:00 - [39] Originally by: Garreck Drunkpost time! Rare for me, but since this is an "out of character" forum, I'll indulge myself. SF, like many "roleplay" organizations, are strong in the ways of combat mechanics. Stronger than many of the major alliances might give them ("us," as roleplay organizations, really) credit for. I wasn't present for their stealth bomber stunt, but it was a worthwhile effort using the new toys ccp has recently given us, and a bit unconventional...which is nicely within Star Fraction's approach to Eve. Unconventional defines them through and through. I'll disagree with the assessment that -7- was close to collapse, and with the implications that CVA can only win against SF due to numerical superiority, and indeed that CVA used numerical superiority on any level to survive the month-long TRI seige of Providence...but I'm happy to credit SF with causing enough pressure against -7- to draw the direct attention of the CVA and the utilization of such numbers (the classic "we didn't need such force, but we used it anyway" approach.) I figure the writing has been on the wall for CVA since our conquest of Ushra'Khan in Providence: we've proved a degree of combat prowess which continues to attract greater pressure for the sake of fun fights (the latest of which came from TRI) which will no doubt ultimately culminate in attracting an organization not only capable of conquering CVA space, but willing to fully commit the resources required to do so. I suppose the main reason this hasn't happened yet is because Providence ain't really worth the effort in and of itself. Conquering CVA to say "we conquered CVA," however, might become an objective worth achieving within the new year. Time will tell, I suppose. In the mean time, I hope CVA keeps the war against SF in place. If nothing else...we need the extra pressure in Empire space. Too many lazy habits have developed as we become more comfortable with our reliance, as an alliance, on 0.0 space. 1. We got word that Sev3rance became desperate and was close to collapse and due to their active numbers and corps leaving it became kinda obvious Sev leadership had a hard time 2. CVA using numerical advantage to TRI is bull**. You make it sound like you only used it on TRI. Well a 3-man gang getting blobbed by 11-man cva gang is pretty cool, way to go Also when we had a fleetfight on the XHQ gate in KBP you had 2 times the numbers, also **eloads of caps on the battlefield, so better do your research again And when it comes to equal numbers in any fight, CVA just fails. We've had some fights where we had equal numbers and were even outgunned or rarely even strenght, we beated you then. But mostly you or other prov alliance just blob in stead of fighting, you must love your kb stats for some reason. Well so far for your ''we've proved a degree of combat prowess which continues to attract greater pressure for the sake of fun fights''. Even when TRI came you called in non-RP alliance to help your non-RP alliance. First you despise the goons then call em in for help? that's just fail OT: The stealth bombers were fun indeed, tho due to some standing glitches i lost 2 hounds to friendly fire. Picking up hound from pos then showing red/orange to gang members is pretty bad Awesome post Jade
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 11:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Kebabski 2. CVA using numerical advantage to TRI is bull**. You make it sound like you only used it on TRI. Well a 3-man gang getting blobbed by 11-man cva gang is pretty cool, way to go Also when we had a fleetfight on the XHQ gate in KBP you had 2 times the numbers, also **eloads of caps on the battlefield, so better do your research again And when it comes to equal numbers in any fight, CVA just fails. We've had some fights where we had equal numbers and were even outgunned or rarely even strenght, we beated you then. But mostly you or other prov alliance just blob in stead of fighting, you must love your kb stats for some reason. Well so far for your ''we've proved a degree of combat prowess which continues to attract greater pressure for the sake of fun fights''. Even when TRI came you called in non-RP alliance to help your non-RP alliance. First you despise the goons then call em in for help? that's just fail Thanks for this mindblowing analysis, ex-Ushra'Khan pilot who joined Triumvirate 4 days ago...

Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:04:00 - [41] Originally by: Kebabski Originally by: Garreck Drunkpost time! Rare for me, but since this is an "out of character" forum, I'll indulge myself. SF, like many "roleplay" organizations, are strong in the ways of combat mechanics. Stronger than many of the major alliances might give them ("us," as roleplay organizations, really) credit for. I wasn't present for their stealth bomber stunt, but it was a worthwhile effort using the new toys ccp has recently given us, and a bit unconventional...which is nicely within Star Fraction's approach to Eve. Unconventional defines them through and through. I'll disagree with the assessment that -7- was close to collapse, and with the implications that CVA can only win against SF due to numerical superiority, and indeed that CVA used numerical superiority on any level to survive the month-long TRI seige of Providence...but I'm happy to credit SF with causing enough pressure against -7- to draw the direct attention of the CVA and the utilization of such numbers (the classic "we didn't need such force, but we used it anyway" approach.) I figure the writing has been on the wall for CVA since our conquest of Ushra'Khan in Providence: we've proved a degree of combat prowess which continues to attract greater pressure for the sake of fun fights (the latest of which came from TRI) which will no doubt ultimately culminate in attracting an organization not only capable of conquering CVA space, but willing to fully commit the resources required to do so. I suppose the main reason this hasn't happened yet is because Providence ain't really worth the effort in and of itself. Conquering CVA to say "we conquered CVA," however, might become an objective worth achieving within the new year. Time will tell, I suppose. In the mean time, I hope CVA keeps the war against SF in place. If nothing else...we need the extra pressure in Empire space. Too many lazy habits have developed as we become more comfortable with our reliance, as an alliance, on 0.0 space. 1. We got word that Sev3rance became desperate and was close to collapse and due to their active numbers and corps leaving it became kinda obvious Sev leadership had a hard time 2. CVA using numerical advantage to TRI is bull**. You make it sound like you only used it on TRI. Well a 3-man gang getting blobbed by 11-man cva gang is pretty cool, way to go Also when we had a fleetfight on the XHQ gate in KBP you had 2 times the numbers, also **eloads of caps on the battlefield, so better do your research again And when it comes to equal numbers in any fight, CVA just fails. We've had some fights where we had equal numbers and were even outgunned or rarely even strenght, we beated you then. But mostly you or other prov alliance just blob in stead of fighting, you must love your kb stats for some reason. Well so far for your ''we've proved a degree of combat prowess which continues to attract greater pressure for the sake of fun fights''. Even when TRI came you called in non-RP alliance to help your non-RP alliance. First you despise the goons then call em in for help? that's just fail OT: The stealth bombers were fun indeed, tho due to some standing glitches i lost 2 hounds to friendly fire. Picking up hound from pos then showing red/orange to gang members is pretty bad Awesome post Jade Quoting this for future reference. San Matari Official forums
Saraith Narr Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:07:00 - [42] Quote: 1. We got word that Sev3rance became desperate and was close to collapse and due to their active numbers and corps leaving it became kinda obvious Sev leadership had a hard time Sev3rance didnt want those corps anyway ;)
Karunel Princeps Corp T e r c i o s	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:11:00 - [43] Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Awesome post Jade. Nice display of out-of-the box thinking and succesfull deployment of Black Ops. :) ^ ____ Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:14:00 - [44] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 13/01/2008 12:15:27 Originally by: Gaius Kador Originally by: Swamp Ziro I was about to say this is pretty awesome, then I remember the nerdy local chats, the limitless spam of rp whenever possible, the ****ty sec status of providence, the pettyness of sides accusing other sides of bringing allies so I won't say a thing :V Innovative tactics and good fights do loose their appeal when there are RP nerds involved, so true. Without some decent smacktalk and some l337 speek in local its really not worth it. That said, it was a good fight and props to all involved, especially at SF/UK for the bomberblob. Just a pity we had to endure all that RP... hahah, yeah sure, tell yourself that then remember local chat @ muritor's folly and unity fights, score after score of idiots from both sides copypasting huge walls of text in local while everyone whining in their private channels about how low and petty and wrong and unfair the other side is. Seriously, rp spam is the worst spam, admit it
Morgmyn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:19:00 - [45] Edited by: Morgmyn on 13/01/2008 12:19:30 Originally by: Swamp Ziro are you a rper?
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:20:00 - [46] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 13/01/2008 12:23:40 Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 13/01/2008 12:22:51 Originally by: Morgmyn Edited by: Morgmyn on 13/01/2008 12:19:30 Originally by: Swamp Ziro are you a rper? used to be ushra khan. The rp fight itself was pretty cool, but the whole talk funny and walloftext or its not RP deal kinda grew tiring
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:24:00 - [47] Was a nice tactic for a change. Needs a lot of fleet discipline to focus the fire, but the Alpha strike and the DPS are there. During the 2nd engagement near the gate I saw my Sacrilege go from 50% shield to deep structure in a matter of secs, even without agro due to the fact that was being dampened to oblivion and on jump range I just wasnÆt fast enough to hit the jump button. Guess that was trying to figure out how my HAC, seconds earlier was fully combat capable and now was in flames. Over confidence because of what happened during the 1st engagement on the pos I guess.
Niding Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:35:00 - [48] Nice report. I enjoyed the read even tho I disagree with some of the conclusions in it, as you would expect To Kebabski: CVA killboard is private and passwordprotected. Why would we be concerned with ratios? Only thing we use the board for is identifying hotspots and corp/alliances that agress us. Its also nice as a teaching tool for newer pilots that makes mistakes. All this fingerpointing about blobbing and outnumbering accomplishes nothing. Saying that we never engage without overwhelming numbers has been said before, but isnt more true now than in the past. That said, if there is a IMPORTANT objective to be accomplished, a FC would be foolish to not use all the resources available to him to meet said goal. Risking SOV levels/outposts just to look good on COAD would be reckless.
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:48:00 - [49] Edited by: Keorythe on 13/01/2008 12:50:26 Just want to point out some inaccuracies, misconceptions, and blatant lies. Quote: This was almost the end for Sev3rance. The pressure was growing, their space fleet largely impotent and helpless with the CVA fleet generally POSÆed and docked from the threat of Triumvirate and morale inside the CVA holder alliance was diminished and threadbare. (Many alliance defections occurred, individuals, whole corps, while general numbers of active pilots suffered badly.) Only SF/UK forces believed this statement. SF/UK patrols managed to hinder carebear..err mining operations from time to time. Control of the KBP/Dital gate changed hands on a regular basis depending on who's pilots were awake at the time. However, while we were under constant attack at no time did anyone every think the alliance was going down. Sev3rance lost a single 15 person carebear corp due to the war. I don't see massive losses there. Of course SF being masters of propoganda made sure that everyone else thought Sev3rance was going down in flames. Quote: On the whole these were very successful indeed. And the tech1 fitted ôdeath commandosö were downing HACÆs, Recons, Ceptors and creating havoc at the Amarrian gate gangs with each pass. We were getting the hang of this! Success is a misconception here. Everytime these death commando's appeared they died. They inflicted very little damage in all honesty. The trade off was more in the favor of CVA and friends. The fact is that stealth bombers proved to be very fragile ships and when thrown against support with interceptor and snipers together they died in droves with many of the missiles losing lock in mid flight. In all you lost close to 47 stealth bombers while killing less than 10 ships cruiser or smaller hulled. When several pilots tried to return the favor they found the tactic to be lacking in several areas and reshipped to conventional fleet. Quote: We descended on the CVA pets like wolves on sheep and blew their haulers to pieces and scattered their hastily assembled fleet in a furious counterattack that saw us wreck an Absolution and a wing of assault frigates in a couple of minutes of cruise-missile spamming ecstasy before guarding the debris field and allowing UshraÆkhan to loot their own dead towers in peace. You killed an PULSE Absolution fitted with an AFTERBURNER (he deserved to die for that really) and a PAIR of assault frigs. You lost 2 stealth bombers in the process. Quote: Sadly though that was it for the defence of KBP, the next UK towers were coming out later in the morning and we couldnÆt sustain numbers enough to keep the tactic viable or approach the fifty weÆd had at peak û let alone the 75 we felt we needed to truly threaten an enemy dreadnaught. You're not the only ones with reduced numbers. The support fleet from the original engagement was 1/3 the size. Over a dozen pilots showed true dedication and were pushing 24hrs with no sleep to get the job done. A solid attack could have ended either way with the possibility of losing several dreads. Regardless the CVA and friends forces went ahead with everyone bleary eyed, pumped on caffiene, yet keyed up. Instead of enemy capitals showing up to fight we watched enemy capitals cyno in to haul materials out. We knew then the fight was over.
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:49:00 - [50] edited

Luthien Firefoot Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:50:00 - [51] I actually read all that, and it made good reading. Sounds like a lot of fun and that is what we play for, isn't it? [/url]
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 13:16:00 - [52] Originally by: Keorythe Just want to point out some inaccuracies, misconceptions, and blatant lies. Mr Keorythe. I'm not going to pick your response line by line apart because frankly thats neither the point nor purpose of this forum really. Suffice it to say that anybody that does want to nitpick the precise and loss statistics is entirely welcome to do a little research and discover the location of the Star Fraction public killboard and click "battle summary" to get an idea of the vessel tonnage involved and casualties inflicted to the last decimal point. I'm entirely confident the general thrust of the engagement is accurately represented in the op. I would caution you against making silly accusations of "lying" however. Some of your own comments are very easily checked against the public kill record data and will leave your own veracity in significant doubt. Double check before posting Sir! Its always wise to avoid being caught out in public. But really, this isn't the point of the thread or AAR report I posted in the OP. From our perspective this test run of the concept was truly excellent fun and while it failed to kill the target dreadnaught it certainly proved the viability of Black Ops logistics and supply direct to the battlefield. Yes, we lost ALOT of tech1 fitted stealth bombers but the mere fact we could continuously reinforce and sustain the wing for an hour+ of continuous raiding against 3-1 numerical odds and an enemy consisting of Capital Ships, tech2-fitted Sniper battleships and HACs should tell you something about the courage, enthusiasm and technical accomplishments of the logistics team. In terms of material loss the whole business cost the allied forces around (very roughly) 500m isk? Thats the price of 3 properly fitted tech2 snipers Mr Keorythe. For which we engaged 200 enemy pilots for 90mins, had a hellova lot of fun and entertainment and downed more enemy tonnage by far. Now whichever way you would like to counterspin things that doesn't sound like a bad investment to this guerrilla freedom fighter and hence I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending this tactic to any other insurgent force in Eve wishing to try the same against a sitting territorial power. And that Mr Keorythe, is the point of the thread. Have a nice day now! "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 13:23:00 - [53] Originally by: DeadDuck Was a nice tactic for a change. Needs a lot of fleet discipline to focus the fire, but the Alpha strike and the DPS are there. During the 2nd engagement near the gate I saw my Sacrilege go from 50% shield to deep structure in a matter of secs, even without agro due to the fact that was being dampened to oblivion and on jump range I just wasnÆt fast enough to hit the jump button. Guess that was trying to figure out how my HAC, seconds earlier was fully combat capable and now was in flames. Over confidence because of what happened during the 1st engagement on the pos I guess. Yes, we were learning literally by seat-of-the-pants too. We took very heavy losses in the first Dreadnaught attack because we literally focused everything on the target and lent into the dps for longer than was strictly sensible just to test the limits of the firepower we had. In reality we were a good 25-30 bombers short of critical mass given the style of POS guns available on that Tower. We also had some overview issues - really should have given the order to our pilots to make "interceptor/dictor/frigate" only settings for optional close support once the primary target had been assigned. But these are glitches can be resolved in the future. Anyway DeadDuck, thanks for your kind words, and all the best to you. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 13:28:00 - [54] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I'm also interested in the etymology of this word 'fedaykin'. Was it inspired by Dune or a word you by chance put together from other existing words? I'd have thought the fact we called the bombers "death commando" class would have confirmed the Dune link :) But yes of course, its inspired by the Fremen of Dune rising from concealment in the sands of Arakis and opening up with deadly weirding way techniques on the foe. Seemed very appropriate. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Will Hunter GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 13:32:00 - [55] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 13/01/2008 12:23:40 Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 13/01/2008 12:22:51 Originally by: Morgmyn Edited by: Morgmyn on 13/01/2008 12:19:30 Originally by: Swamp Ziro are you a rper? used to be ushra khan. The rp fight itself was pretty cool, but the whole talk funny and walloftext or its not RP deal kinda grew tiring unsponsor swamp ziro 08
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.13 13:33:00 - [56] No Ms. Constantine, the point of the OP is to spin a massive loss into a sort of win. Yes we can fact check which is why I put your loses at "approximate" numbers instead of to the decimal point. And yet even your response you exaggerate the numbers by 2 fold and reduce your losses by half. You proved you could sustain your wings because you kept losing them. Fitting a ship you plan to lose while defending a major assest doesn't show courage, it shows defeatism. The future will tell how well your logistic team really did as a single engagement shows really nothing. Have have no doubt you had some fun. I hope you cherish that day.
BrutusIW Dogs 0f War	Posted - 2008.01.13 13:45:00 - [57] To the OP, sounds like you had a blast! To the flamers, covert ships are by nature less than defensive relying on guerilla tactics for best effect, using them in this way was innovative and reading the post was a joy. im looking forward to hearing about more people using these tactics against more gate camps in the future.
Djuma Nihilist Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 14:05:00 - [58] Originally by: Saraith Narr Sev3rance didnt want those corps anyway ;) I have to say big lols @ that. This is wrong in so many ways i really don't know where to start from so i'll just say "EPIC STATEMENT" As a proud SF operation Fedaykin pilot i'll give the props to our leader for coming up with the idea.
Ace Hall	Posted - 2008.01.13 14:05:00 - [59] Originally by: Keorythe No Ms. Constantine, the point of the OP is to spin a massive loss into a sort of win. Yes we can fact check which is why I put your loses at "approximate" numbers instead of to the decimal point. And yet even your response you exaggerate the numbers by 2 fold and reduce your losses by half. You proved you could sustain your wings because you kept losing them. Fitting a ship you plan to lose while defending a major assest doesn't show courage, it shows defeatism. The future will tell how well your logistic team really did as a single engagement shows really nothing. Have have no doubt you had some fun. I hope you cherish that day. Keep the pressure on them. From the post above I would say that they are very frustrated by your continued disruption of their daily activities and are about ready to pack it in.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 14:08:00 - [60] pretty good read ------ Tides of Silence

Kaar Art of War	Posted - 2008.01.13 14:14:00 - [61] What a great read, too good for caod tbh. --- ---
Kaar Art of War	Posted - 2008.01.13 14:20:00 - [62] Edited by: Kaar on 13/01/2008 14:20:33 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I'm also interested in the etymology of this word 'fedaykin'. Was it inspired by Dune or a word you by chance put together from other existing words? I'd have thought the fact we called the bombers "death commando" class would have confirmed the Dune link :) But yes of course, its inspired by the Fremen of Dune rising from concealment in the sands of Arakis and opening up with deadly weirding way techniques on the foe. Seemed very appropriate. And like a lot of Fremen words, taken from arabic. Fedayin Term for "freedom fighters," normally those involved in battle against politically or religiously repressive forces. --- ---
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.13 14:30:00 - [63] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Seriously, rp spam is the worst spam, admit it Works wonders on smacktalkers ;) ----------------------------------------------
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 14:46:00 - [64] Originally by: Keorythe No Ms. Constantine, the point of the OP is to spin a massive loss into a sort of win. No Mr Keorythe. I think you still aren't quite reading the OP correctly. Its all a bit silly for you to accuse me of spin while admitting that your "approximate" figures have nothing to do with the numbers listed on the kill boards isn't it :) Star Fraction has absolutely nothing to hide with our combat results hence the entirely public killboard and open stats. Quote: ...Fitting a ship you plan to lose while defending a major assest doesn't show courage, it shows defeatism. The future will tell how well your logistic team really did as a single engagement shows really nothing. Fitting a ship you plan to inflict more damage on the enemy with than you take yourself shows guerrilla warfare smarts and dynamic thinking. Our Bomber fleet caused a lot more fiscal damage than it took to assemble and gave (I imagine) our pilots a hellova lot more than sitting like sheep in a passive blob on the gates or being blown to pieces mid pos looting :) Read the OP again Keorythe. We admit, there was absolutely no way we could win a conventional fleet battle against 3-1 odds and the assembled Providence hordes. If we behaved like our enemies we'd have spent the battle docked or behind POS shields. Instead we came out and took the battle to you guys and gave a serious try to causing a historic dreadnaught gank. Sure we lost the towers ultimately - but you know what, we had a hell of a good time with that tactic and you can bet you'll be seeing more of it in the future! "I might not have meant anything by it"
Cvuos GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 14:49:00 - [65] Originally by: Jade Constantine weÆd proven the concept was sound in practise No you haven't, you failed to defend the towers and you failed to kill a dread. You killed stuff at gates, which anyone can do, but you didn't have dictor so even that was a failure. Originally by: Jade Constantine and given a lot of our allied pilots and friends A LOT of fun Correct, that is what you're supposed to say when you FAIL. If you need to spew out this much text over a bad idea poorly executed, how much bandwidth do you consume when things go right?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:06:00 - [66] Originally by: Cvuos Correct, that is what you're supposed to say when you FAIL. If you need to spew out this much text over a bad idea poorly executed, how much bandwidth do you consume when things go right? You have absolutely no idea :) All your bandwidth belong to me! "I might not have meant anything by it"
Cvuos GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:12:00 - [67] Originally by: Jade Constantine All your bandwidth belong to me! Ok that's enough, get out. GET OUT
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:16:00 - [68] Originally by: Ace Hall Keep the pressure on them. From the post above I would say that they are very frustrated by your continued disruption of their daily activities and are about ready to pack it in. I wish I had a fleet of anonymous posters to spam propoganda like SF does. Seriously! If you keep repeating it, maybe it will come true. Ms. Constantine, as you mentioned we can list to a decimal the exact amounts of damage done. But no one is accusing the boards of exaggerating about an engagement, the details, the pilots involved, or the final result. Just you. Once again you say 3 to 1 odds and repeat the "impossible odds" or "already lost" scenario and I say NAY. You lie! Not in just the odds but the scenario itself. And I'll bet that any fleet commander even the suicidal hot dropping capital types will agree that steel discipline and hard core focus can swing battles in unpredictable ways. The enemy chose not to go that route. Instead the enemy treated it as a consilation fight and to go out with a bang...literally. You had fun will losing. I applaude you. Most people would be bitter...oh wait. Now that you've taken up this crusade against Sev3rance, Cold Steel, Paxton, and other northern Providence allies does this mean you're giving up your quest against CVA and slavery? I mean they actually had to declare war against you guys since you wouldn't voluntarily go down and play with them.
Mhorbaine BAT Empire VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:30:00 - [69] great write up there jade.... gonnae have to give that a whirl sometime
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:34:00 - [70] Originally by: Keorythe Now that you've taken up this crusade against Sev3rance, Cold Steel, Paxton, and other northern Providence allies does this mean you're giving up your quest against CVA and slavery? I mean they actually had to declare war against you guys since you wouldn't voluntarily go down and play with them. They declared war on us to bail your fat out of the fire old chap. You weren't exactly getting the better of empire engagements over the past 3months and you did lose a lot of ships and people. Hence CVA declared in local (care of Solusar) that they were here to alleviate the pressure on Sev3rance so we have to assume that you looked like were hurting to them. (extract from Dital local public chat) [ 2008.01.10 03:33:21 ] Solusar > you had 6 weeks to put the pressure on severence [ 2008.01.10 03:33:25 ] Solusar > with 3 alliances of people [ 2008.01.10 03:33:29 ] Solusar > now its 3v3 [ 2008.01.10 03:33:33 ] Solusar > and we shall see how it goes As for our broader strategy. We like the situation as it is. Fighting CVA in Empire without their nullsec allies and cyno fields is our preferred ground. If we have "whack" the Sev3rance "mole" each time to get a free war-declaration out of CVA then thats precisely what we'll keep doing. But thanks for the concern! :) "I might not have meant anything by it"

Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:35:00 - [71] I honestly dont understand why some people expect guerilla fighters to fight in a straight up slugfest against much larger forces. Props to the architects of this mad scheme for innovation. We come for our people
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:37:00 - [72] Originally by: Xennith I honestly dont understand why some people expect guerilla fighters to fight in a straight up slugfest against much larger forces. Props to the architects of this mad scheme for innovation. Heh, its very disappointing for them when we don't line up in neat formations to die against 3-1 odds you know ... "I might not have meant anything by it"
farfrael Freelancer Union	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:44:00 - [73] Brilliant AAR, great style, well written. A real pleasure to read. It sounds like you had a lot of fun which is just great You should get in touch with CCP. I wouldn't mind seeing a write-up on this conflict (like they did for the creation of tortuga) or even a chronicle from the POV of the freedom fighter. Come on, freedom fighter facing overwhelming odds in his stealth bomber, jumping through for the first time using black ops ships, the wonder, the excitement. On the other hand, I'm sure there is also a chronicle from the POV of the CVA, order, strength, maintaining the peace while these filthy rebels try to disrupt things .. you get the idea There HAS to be at least a chronicle to be told about this. Certainly be more interesting and relevant to eve than the "Sister of Eve" chronicle ark with it's not really eve related content (magic stones? give me a break. this smacks of white-wolf style fantasy)
Colonel Katsumoto Jupiter Mining Corp. Fang Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 16:05:00 - [74] Awsome read Jade sounds like you guys had alot of fun. Also try to look up that MDK post about the poor mans titan it might add an interesting mix to your tactics.
Kai Zion Amarr The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.01.13 16:21:00 - [75] I wish more CAOD posts were this good. Thanks for the battle report Jade, great reading.
Irons Amarr IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.13 16:44:00 - [76] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Xennith I honestly dont understand why some people expect guerilla fighters to fight in a straight up slugfest against much larger forces. Props to the architects of this mad scheme for innovation. Heh, its very disappointing for them when we don't line up in neat formations to die against 3-1 odds you know ... Makes a note to remind sf and uk pilots of that when they complain of people sitting behind pos shields. --------------------------------- Whats the point of being grown up if you can't act childish once in awhile?
Exortius Amarrus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.13 16:55:00 - [77] A great read, as always. Best of luck to you in Providence.
Djuma Nihilist Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:01:00 - [78] Originally by: Keorythe Last post from me so feel free to flame all you want without any further responses. Seriously "EPIC STATEMENT" also
Kaltar Re Round Table Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:31:00 - [79] Edited by: Kaltar Re on 13/01/2008 17:31:54 While the fight was a victory for your opponents this time, I think Star Fraction has a very interesting tactic that, with a bit of development, has a ton of potential. One thing that I feel is unrealistic about Eve (as if any Sci-fi game is 'realistic') is that Dreadnought and Super-capital ships such as titans often have more combat effectiveness than carriers. In the real world, these ships were found to be so vulnerable to airstrikes that none of the world's battleships (the more powerful descendents of the HMS Dreadnought) are in service these days. They would be floating deathtraps vs. carriers, period. In this instance, the Black Ops jump bridge is effectively serving the role of the carrier, allowing you to field a large force of inexpensive "fighters" by rotating pilots through replacement snipers as they are shot down. While you may lose a number of cheap ships, your opponents ultimately risk losing ships that will take far longer to replace. In the case of this fight, I suspect the problem was you focused on the DN target first. For your "fighters" the biggest threat are the other light support craft which can best engage them. If you first target the light support elements, then went for the kill agaisnt the bigger targets, you may ultimately have better success. Your opponent will have choose between summoning more light craft (which you can hopefully stop with a gate camp) to counter your attacks, risk his capital craft hoping to outlast your supply of snipers or retreat to preserve his capital craft.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 18:23:00 - [80] Originally by: Colonel Katsumoto Awsome read Jade sounds like you guys had alot of fun. Also try to look up that MDK post about the poor mans titan it might add an interesting mix to your tactics. I read that and loved it! Was another brilliant example of out of the box thinking and much respect for it. "I might not have meant anything by it"

Sean Dillon Caldari Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.01.13 18:26:00 - [81] Awesome read, you make it like I wanted to be there help you pop support!
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 18:29:00 - [82] Originally by: Sean Dillon Awesome read, you make it like I wanted to be there help you pop support! These things aren't impossible - if your organization ever fancies joining the Fight against CVA tyranny in Providence we'll be happy to sell you a ride at cost in the jump-off system and get you on our vent for the occasion. This revolutionary movement is very easy to come fly with :) "I might not have meant anything by it"
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 18:30:00 - [83] the roleplayer hotdrop
jdok Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.13 19:02:00 - [84] Originally by: Keorythe Edited by: Keorythe on 13/01/2008 15:20:25 You had fun will losing. I applaude you. Most people would be bitter...oh wait. Now that you've taken up this crusade against Sev3rance, Cold Steel, Paxton, and other northern Providence allies does this mean you're giving up your quest against CVA and slavery? I mean they actually had to declare war against you guys since you wouldn't voluntarily go down and play with them. Last post from me so feel free to flame all you want without any further responses. COAD combat is much tougher than fleet. Rolling Eyes It's lads like this that just reinforce what we do. Much easier on the morals to terrorize an enemy you don't like nor respect. If you guys really wanted to get rid of us, maybe react intelligently, reasonably, and respectfully to posts such as these. When you spout ignorance it just makes us know what we are doing is just. When you show frustration we know we are applying effective pressure. This thread went a whole page without any comments from CVA lords and their serfs. Then suddenly the 2nd page lit up with mixed responces, some clearly showing anger, others showing respect. I guess someone on your internal forums took notice and posted an 'omg look what these dogs said' post. Jade as well as many of us SF love debate and intellectual conflict, which is part of the reason we band together so well. So if you want to spout dribble on these forums, don't be shocked to find a post debating your position. Giving up without adequate response makes you look defeated and merely trying to save face. ___________________________
Conlin Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.13 20:36:00 - [85] Bloody good read , end of the day we knew we couldnt win and keep the pos,s . When I read alliance mail for what was recq I thought it was madness , but then I have to be mad to be in an alliance thats vastly outnumbered , with almost every fight against us . So on that note I signed up immediately and recommend anyone to try it . Imagine what we couldve achieved with more bombers
Lyra Garris Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.13 22:32:00 - [86] Black Ops? Stealth bombers? Bombs? Explosions? This contains many of my favorite things. I applaud your innovation; I'm sure we'll be seeing more of this sort of thing in the future. Nice to see someone trying something different every once in a while, even if it is Star Fraction.
Orion Moonstar Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 22:34:00 - [87] tl;dr http://www.dariusjohnson.org/dec20bobts.mp3 http://www.daitengu.com/ohgod/dec20bobts.mp3
Moon Kitten GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 22:35:00 - [88] More like Operation Bore Everyone To Death ~~ We've lulled our opponents into a false sense of confidence. Oh, yes. Oh, oh, oh. Everything is going according to plan. Those fools, they think they can win... by winning.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar Stimulus	Posted - 2008.01.13 22:56:00 - [89] I can say this was the first time I felt like I didn't waste my money on my Panther. Despite all the problems with them this did prove to be a very valid tactic for assaulting hostile territory or defending it even though the main objective was not met. The secondary objective at having fun doing it then analyzing it was well worth the efforts. Jade did a great job! This is the first time I think we've ever seen this type of gameplay since Trinity and I was glad to be a part of it on the BO and the SB end. We failed to take out the dreads but CVA have to be commended as they worked in unison as good as any force I've seen in EVE at the POS removal game. This tactic however shouldn't be mocked, especially by some of the Goons in this thread. If anyone could make this tactic absolutely amazing it would be the Goonies in all honestly and a video would probably draw more people into EVE and the swarm. How much fun it was to actually be in the SB fleet on my alt and rain down Cruise doesn't really come out in forum text. It was super fun, one of the best times I've had in EVE in ages. Definitely recommend it to everyone to use at some point. Of course we'll get better at using it and refine it. I am looking forward to using similar tactics outside of POS warfare as well. Hopefully the DEVS will ungimp the mechanics a bit more with cyno jammers blocking a great deal of 0.0 space. Team Minmatar
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.13 23:05:00 - [90] Originally by: Orion Moonstar tl;dr quotin' dis ... but really... the OP is ridculously long .... I love reading threads in CAOD, specially well written ones.. I started reading this thread and my eyes simply glazed over. Tbh if its a toss up between Goon one liners, repeated ad nauseum.. and a wall of text about "stuff" that happened in providence.. give me the goons anytime.

the animator Caldari Terra Incognita	Posted - 2008.01.14 00:14:00 - [91]
Snakester Caldari Blood and Money Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.14 00:25:00 - [92] Originally by: Jade Constantine Suffice it to say that anybody that does want to nitpick the precise and loss statistics is entirely welcome to do a little research and discover the location of the Star Fraction public killboard and click "battle summary" to get an idea of the vessel tonnage involved and casualties inflicted to the last decimal point. So, your KB now shows losse's from all your allies now? from your own KB battle summary, Battle Statistics Kills: 35 Losses: 55 Damage done (ISK): 988.32M Damage received (ISK): 468M Efficiency: 67.86% with friendlys numbering 62 (some hostiles counted in there too) and enemies numbering 91 (again some of your guys counted in there, and the UL gang u killed). add to this your alliied mates deaths, it should work out u lost more. (but u somehow never ever account for your allies dying (are they just cannon fodder we ask?)). Stats from -7- kb could be used to show another veiw ofc. Battle Statistics Kills: 53 Losses: 20 Damage done (ISK): 569.4M Damage received (ISK): 234.9M Efficiency: 70.79% but thats just -7-'s kb, doesn't really count, as we like to count in our friends loss's and even offer them reshipping, in system. Even tho, i thought it was an excellent tactic, lag was unbearable for me, my game had been running nearly 23 hour's, and i had forgot to relog/clear cache, turn puter of for a nice fresh start. [url=www.sev3rance.com/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=22] [/url]
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 00:27:00 - [93] I'd like to congratulate Star Fraction on pioneering the tactic on such a scale. I was there, and enjoyed the fights a lot. I think statistically it probably looks like a massacre and waste of good bombers, but well, they are pretty cheap... I got primaried twice in the engagements (thanks to thecosmopolite POS Gunning I think it was) at the tower, and then a nice surprise of about 40-80 missiles sent my way on the Dital gate. Both times I managed to warp away at the crucial pre-alpha point. At the tower I got away on half armour from the POS guns, but on the gate I warped to a snipe point as the first of a shedload of missiles hit, then back onto our tacklers who were by then amoungst your bombers. I managed 2 solo kills and was on mails for a host of others with my Myrmidon's warrior IIs chewing you up and most people in the Close Range squads had similar stories. Despite the heavy losses you took, I was very impressed with the tactic and am certain that if you were to throw in a few more dictors into the mix, you may have had much better results. I'd venture the experience will stand you in good stead, the tactic will be refined for next time and that if you were fighting a less well organised force than CVA and friends, you would definately have inflicted some hardcore damage as well as having what obviously is tremndous fun! /me salutes Star Fraction (NOW not just forum windbags! ) GF PS - yes I'm a poof and will warp from primary (at least when the alpha is avoidable!)
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 00:51:00 - [94] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I got primaried twice in the engagements (thanks to thecosmopolite POS Gunning I think it was) at the tower[..] I'm afraid I must disavow that as I was in Hound class stealth bombers throughout. I dare say one of the U'K gunners had you marked down on his list... Anyway, was fun. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Hitme Harder HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2008.01.14 00:55:00 - [95] Brilliant way to break a gatecamp, wow. ________________________________
Jonny Damordred Stimulus	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:04:00 - [96] Originally by: Keorythe I wish I had a fleet of anonymous posters to spam propoganda like SF does. Since when has SF used anonymous posters to spam? They do quite well with their mains. Cheers, Jonny D. ----------
Blitz'Krieg Caldari SkyMarshal Logistics	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:54:00 - [97] I have no experiance in stealth bombers myself but did you think about using bombs? Are they even viable these days? I was under the impression that 50 bombs would make a hell of a bang.
Djuma Nihilist Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 02:33:00 - [98] Originally by: Snakester Edited by: Snakester on 14/01/2008 00:47:37 So, your KB now shows losse's from all your allies now? from your own KB battle summary, Battle Statistics Kills: 35 Losses: 55 Damage done (ISK): 988.32M ( of which 384m was from the 4 UL ships) Damage received (ISK): 468M Efficiency: 67.86% with friendlys numbering 62 (some hostiles counted in there too) and enemies numbering 91 (again some of your guys counted in there, and the UL gang u killed). add to this your alliied mates deaths, it should work out u lost more. (but u somehow never ever account for your allies dying (are they just cannon fodder we ask?)). Stats from -7- kb could be used to show another veiw ofc. Battle Statistics Kills: 53 Losses: 20 Damage done (ISK): 569.4M Damage received (ISK): 234.9M Efficiency: 70.79% but thats just -7-'s kb, doesn't really count, as we like to count in our friends loss's and even offer them reshipping, in system. Even tho, i thought it was an excellent tactic, lag was unbearable for me, my game had been running nearly 23 hour's, and i had forgot to relog/clear cache, turn puter of for a nice fresh start. In the words of bloody "holy virgin" Mary : Come again?
Zathi Shaitan Minmatar Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.01.14 02:58:00 - [99] "Arazu's".... I will never understand why people tend to think ALL plurals are made with " 's "... "ship's"? "illiterate's"? "group's"? "fighter's"? ---- " Several unconventional alliances where made at that point " - Hey CCP, "where" != "were".. you too, Brutus?
Centra Spike Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 03:01:00 - [100] Edited by: Centra Spike on 14/01/2008 03:02:11 Originally by: Blitz'Krieg I have no experiance in stealth bombers myself but did you think about using bombs? Are they even viable these days? I was under the impression that 50 bombs would make a hell of a bang. 50 bombs would be one hell of a bang, but they are expensive; fill a very, very limited role; and are hard to use in that large of a scale. Also, most people have trained for cruise missiles and few have trained for bombs. Also, I wanted to add, I had a LOT of fun flying on this op and assembling/naming a lot of the bombers. >Truth conquers all chains.

Snakester Caldari Blood and Money Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.14 03:14:00 - [101] Originally by: Djuma Nihilist In the words of bloody "holy virgin" Mary : Come again? So what didn't u understand about my post then?. I was just trying to point out that Jade always claims SF kill more "Tonnage" then they actually loose, ignoring the fact that her allies losses are never ever taken into the equation because SF KB don't show there losses.Plus that battle report is not 100% acurate because of the UL kills on it which nearly add up to 40% of total isk loss. Until CCP implement an ingame killboard we can all access which shows complete kills/losses, we will never know the exact amount, now will we?.If u wanna get all technical about it, i can say my corp is doing rather well with a 92.63% efficency. SoBAM have killed alot my "tonnage" than JF has done to us which = we win. Snake. [url=www.sev3rance.com/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=22] [/url]
Renosha Argaron Caldari IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.14 03:26:00 - [102] Yet more "LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG" winded, mind numbing propoganda from jade, not that i would expect anything less, Firstly, where you got the notion that Sev3rance was on its knee's, that is just more mind blowing Bulls**t as well you know it, the fact that we lost a couple of corp's during this war is negligible to say the least, and as i recal UK also lost a couple of corp's as did SF loose some members, but nice spin on the true fact's as always jade....i truely did'nt expect you to stick to facts anyway, fairytales seem to be more your thing, ...well on the eve-o forums at least. You can hide your lies behind as many long winded post's as you like jade, but at the end of the day you know it's mostly lies and spin to make SF look better than it really is,i give you props for being a good PvP corp, but as soon as CVA war dec'ed you, you left the area and subsequently left UK to there own demise, Your constant attempts to gain support and play one alliance off against the other is well noted, as is your reputation for twisting the truth, but i found most of what you said laughable as always. For those people who actualy believe half of what jade is telling you, then you are being manipulated and being fed rhetoric and propoganda from Ms Constantwhine (as s/he has come to be known)and the SF spinn doctors,... so my advice would be to take what jade tell's you with the pinch of salt it truly deserve's, she may be a good story teller i grant you, but that's exactly what they are, storys,...fable's to try and justify her personal vendeta against an allaince that made her look foolish....even at the expense of her own, and UK's corp members. I sympathise with UK and SF members for getting so involved with such a megalomaniac, This war is personal for jade and nothing more than that....to be noticed for your wall's of text with the "Look at Me" "Please Pat me On the Back" spin on each and every post you make is just sad, but if it works for you then go for it Anyway the fight go's on, so im prepared for yet more lies and gibberish from your camp jadypoo's....lol....your roleplay fight with a non Roleplaying allaince will no doubt get you the attention you crave so badly. Heartfelt Regards....lol Renosha
Lorna V Minmatar IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.14 03:32:00 - [103] Originally by: Djuma Nihilist Originally by: Snakester Edited by: Snakester on 14/01/2008 00:47:37 So, your KB now shows losse's from all your allies now? from your own KB battle summary, Battle Statistics Kills: 35 Losses: 55 Damage done (ISK): 988.32M ( of which 384m was from the 4 UL ships) Damage received (ISK): 468M Efficiency: 67.86% with friendlys numbering 62 (some hostiles counted in there too) and enemies numbering 91 (again some of your guys counted in there, and the UL gang u killed). add to this your alliied mates deaths, it should work out u lost more. (but u somehow never ever account for your allies dying (are they just cannon fodder we ask?)). Stats from -7- kb could be used to show another veiw ofc. Battle Statistics Kills: 53 Losses: 20 Damage done (ISK): 569.4M Damage received (ISK): 234.9M Efficiency: 70.79% but thats just -7-'s kb, doesn't really count, as we like to count in our friends loss's and even offer them reshipping, in system. Even tho, i thought it was an excellent tactic, lag was unbearable for me, my game had been running nearly 23 hour's, and i had forgot to relog/clear cache, turn puter of for a nice fresh start. In the words of bloody "holy virgin" Mary : Come again? Is it that complicated, Djuma? What he's saying is you can make it look like you did better than you did by ignoring all the losses your allies took. Say for example, I was in another alliance's 20 man fleet, and got on 10 kills before all 20 of our ships were lost. Well, my own alliance would show 10 kills to 1 loss, and a FAIL would look like a win for my alliance. You can decide for yourself how that does or does not apply here because God knows I can't be bothered to actually read another of Jade's walls of blah, blah, blah... Lorna V
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 03:48:00 - [104] Originally by: Renosha Argaron but as soon as CVA war dec'ed you, you left the area and subsequently left UK to there own demise Simply a lie and so ridiculous that I can hardly believe I am seeing it. The Ushra'Khan know the truth. The efforts to which certain people go to try and divide SF and the U'K from one another tells a story all of its own. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Renosha Argaron Caldari IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.14 03:59:00 - [105] Edited by: Renosha Argaron on 14/01/2008 04:04:26 Oh please cosmo, you know it is not a lie, and for you to accuse me of lying is rich, im not the one writing this fabrication, jade is,...if you wanna talk about lie's, then you just have to look within your own corp. Although i find your loyalty to jade admirable, its also very misguided, blind loyalty is just as bad as telling the lies yourself, you know what this war is all about as well as i do, and you know UK are pawns to jade to be played with and discarded when it suits. Im not gonna get in to a smakfest with you about this, these are my views on what is an open subject for all to take part, im just being honest in the face of so many lies and will tell it like it is, if you like what i have to say or not. Regards Renosha
Conlin Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.14 04:08:00 - [106] Originally by: Renosha Argaron Oh please cosmo, you know it is not a lie, and for you to accuse me of lying is rich, im not the one writing this fabrication, jade is,...if you wanna talk about lie's, then you just have to look within your own corp. Although i find your loyalty to jade admirable, but its also very misguided, blind loyily is just as bad as telling the lie yourself, you know what this war is all about as well as i do, and you know UK are pawns to jade to be played with and discarded when it suits. Im not gonna get in to a smakfest with you about this, these are my views on what is an open subject for all to take part, im just being honest in the face of so many lies and will tell it like it is if you like what i have to say or not. Regards Renosha Bitter much ? ....
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 04:12:00 - [107] How SF could have killed enemy shipping in the Sev3rance pocket on every day since the CVA war dec up to and including the day of the attack on the Ushra'Khan towers; how the SF/U'K and allies stealth bomber operation could take place; how we could remain active in the pocket and outside it, in combat with the CVA, alongside U'K pilots; how all these things could be so and how your remark cannot be a lie, I simply fail to understand. The claim I highlighted is a lie, nothing more. We did not abandon our friends and allies, the Ushra'Khan, and we will not abandon them. No amount of wishful thinking on your part will make it happen. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Renosha Argaron Caldari IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.14 04:16:00 - [108] Originally by: Conlin Originally by: Renosha Argaron Oh please cosmo, you know it is not a lie, and for you to accuse me of lying is rich, im not the one writing this fabrication, jade is,...if you wanna talk about lie's, then you just have to look within your own corp. Although i find your loyalty to jade admirable, but its also very misguided, blind loyily is just as bad as telling the lie yourself, you know what this war is all about as well as i do, and you know UK are pawns to jade to be played with and discarded when it suits. Im not gonna get in to a smakfest with you about this, these are my views on what is an open subject for all to take part, im just being honest in the face of so many lies and will tell it like it is if you like what i have to say or not. Regards Renosha Bitter much ? .... lol..iv nothing to feel bitter about.....how about you?....lol
Jkol0	Posted - 2008.01.14 05:47:00 - [109] Im sure Severance thinks they faired perfect, or so you would like everyone to believe, but ive seen how many losses severance took in the time that UK and SF decided to blockade KBP. Not that we got many chances to kill people from severance in kbp or nearby there, since you guys hugged your pos. The only time i've ever seen Severance come out in anything more than a few ratting ships or shuttles to try and ferry between systems is when your allies came in in groups of 30 or more, and even then i saw Severance come out mostly in the 100+ gangs of Cva, Paxton, Sylph, Cold steel, Pie.... any other allies of Severance. Id like for Severance to try and talk about SF and UK having more losses when Severance has a big gang to boost them while UK and SF have a small gang to fight that, and still manage to get plenty of kills off of that bigger gang. IMO UK and SF have done a fine job with what they had and id love to see someone try and prove otherwise and call it a FACT! And Please don't sit there and try and call others some of your 3rd grader names since they where worn out ages ago for everyone here. Jkol0
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.14 06:01:00 - [110] Nice report Jade. Some comments if I may .... First up, when U'K planned our part in this op we had 1 goal - to break sev3rances sov. We wished to get rid of that damn cyno jammer and create 30+ days of cap ship play ground for our own pilots and anyone else who wished to take advantage. For us it was taking our Burn Providence campaign to the next level - sovereignty harassment, guerrilla war with POS. We timed it with Tri hammering CVA cos any fool knows with CVAs backing a holder alliance in Providence becomes very hard to assault at POS level and the chances of taking sov reduce to zero. Plan worked, CVA get nicely distracted, we put up our deaths stars with minimal fuss, a week later sev's sov is broken. How many times has that happened in Providence of late? Goal achieved, from my operational perspective anything else from here on in was a bonus. Second, the reality Sev faced (and still do) was without CVA to save their asses they were going down. Fortunately for Sev at the crucial moment Tri returned North and CVA came to rectify the situation in force. This was expected (CVA have a habit of tenaciously defending their space) and allowed us to attempt to pull off our second on-going goal of baiting CVA cap ships to death. Sure we failed, but it was a very enjoyable attempt. I was manning POS guns at the time and seeing those bombers appear against CVA's impressive cap fleet was one of the best things I've been a part of for ages. Its truly inspiring to see pilots hurling themselves in against the odds regardless. Ballsy stuff. Props to all sides for keeping it smack free. PS The cyno jammer is still down for another couple of weeks. -----------------------------------------

Tabouli GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.14 06:01:00 - [111] you know why this is the first time someone has jump bridged stealth bombers on top of someone it's because it's a really dumb idea
Conlin Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.14 06:16:00 - [112] Originally by: Renosha Argaron Originally by: Conlin Originally by: Renosha Argaron Oh please cosmo, you know it is not a lie, and for you to accuse me of lying is rich, im not the one writing this fabrication, jade is,...if you wanna talk about lie's, then you just have to look within your own corp. Although i find your loyalty to jade admirable, but its also very misguided, blind loyily is just as bad as telling the lie yourself, you know what this war is all about as well as i do, and you know UK are pawns to jade to be played with and discarded when it suits. Im not gonna get in to a smakfest with you about this, these are my views on what is an open subject for all to take part, im just being honest in the face of so many lies and will tell it like it is if you like what i have to say or not. Regards Renosha Bitter much ? .... lol..iv nothing to feel bitter about.....how about you?....lol What would I have to be bitter about ?.
Nek Tuomatta Advanced Combat Machines and Equipment Independent Faction	Posted - 2008.01.14 06:36:00 - [113] Originally by: Conlin Originally by: Renosha Argaron Originally by: Conlin Bitter much ? .... lol..iv nothing to feel bitter about.....how about you?....lol What would I have to be bitter about ?. 1. CVA and Severance tore apart your conventionals and will continue to do so 2. CVA and Severance smacked down all 7 of your POS in providence 3. You have no foothold in providence, for the second time 4. You're reduced to accusing others of what bitterness you're currently feeling You are now reading my sig! Originally by: Gaius Kador Nothing surprises me as to the lengths Star Fraction will go to push their propaganda on the public masses.
Kai Zion Amarr The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.01.14 07:45:00 - [114] I find it pretty telling that one side can happily admit their defeats and weaknesses and yet still hold their heads high because they had fun. All whilst the other side is busy nitpicking and getting butthurt over every single possible point they can, no matter how small, even feeling the need to point out defeats and weaknesses that have already been admitted in the very first post and subsequent others. It's pretty clear who the "bitter" ones are and what group is still having fun - even as they try something others would deem impossible.
Conlin Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.14 08:45:00 - [115] Originally by: Kai Zion I find it pretty telling that one side can happily admit their defeats and weaknesses and yet still hold their heads high because they had fun. All whilst the other side is busy nitpicking and getting butthurt over every single possible point they can, no matter how small, even feeling the need to point out defeats and weaknesses that have already been admitted in the very first post and subsequent others. It's pretty clear who the "bitter" ones are and what group is still having fun - even as they try something others would deem impossible. Just for you Nek , read it , digest it and rethink your next reply before you join the rest in this topic . The day our pos,s were coming out of reinforced we had almost a 70 man gang . And there was nothing but humour and laughing on our comms . That sounds more to be people enjoying themselves than bitterness to me , even down to the last shot fired in KBP. One last thing .... who the hell are you ?. What a brazen-fac,d varlet art thou ...
Hardin Amarr SOS Holdings Shadows Of Supremacy	Posted - 2008.01.14 09:36:00 - [116] Originally by: Conlin Originally by: Kai Zion I find it pretty telling that one side can happily admit their defeats and weaknesses and yet still hold their heads high because they had fun. All whilst the other side is busy nitpicking and getting butthurt over every single possible point they can, no matter how small, even feeling the need to point out defeats and weaknesses that have already been admitted in the very first post and subsequent others. It's pretty clear who the "bitter" ones are and what group is still having fun - even as they try something others would deem impossible. Just for you Nek , read it , digest it and rethink your next reply before you join the rest in this topic . The day our pos,s were coming out of reinforced we had almost a 70 man gang . And there was nothing but humour and laughing on our comms . That sounds more to be people enjoying themselves than bitterness to me , even down to the last shot fired in KBP. One last thing .... who the hell are you ?. What a brazen-fac,d varlet art thou ... I actually think Kai wasn't referring to UK/SF with this but then maybe I read it wrong ------------------------------
Olavane Riftsnake Clan Shadow Wolf Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 09:56:00 - [117] Good use of covert cyno and bombers. Respect.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.14 10:00:00 - [118] I agree with Hardin on this one... (cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!) We come for our people
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.14 10:17:00 - [119] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 14/01/2008 10:18:21 I think the key word in Conlin's post was 'Nek'. In other words Conlin was agreeing with Kai's post. Just a guess ... -----------------------------------------
Kai Zion Amarr The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.01.14 10:23:00 - [120] Edited by: Kai Zion on 14/01/2008 10:24:48 To Hardin, When I'm referring to this specific conflict and speaking of one side taking on a task many would deem impossible and well...daring to dream, I'm not sure how you could conclude that I was talking about anyone other than SF and their allies. I say "this specific conflict" because it's certainly true in my eyes that CVA dares to tackle seemingly impossible tasks themselves, but that's in other conflicts at other times. That's not something I'd want to take away from your guys, I respect both sides for going about such things with their own method and equally admirable fervour. Anyways, I was generalising in my post to be honest. Posts like Viktor Abyss' and others show that the Jade wasn't posting entirely in vain and mutual respect is possible. My point still remains however, many people on the defending side are not doing themselves any favours by showing nothing but pedantic contempt for their enemies. Particularly when such enemies have managed to (in typical iconoclastic style) go against the grain and admit their weaknesses as much as they push the case for their own strengths and achievements. When one side can speak of areas they need to improve upon and the other can only leap on that and ramble on about it as if it wasn't even mentioned previously, all without eating even a crumb of humble pie themselves...well, it tells me that they in fact are the "bitter" ones. I'll leave it at that. Much respect to those people on both sides who can (here's the ammunition for your one-liner, dear random goon) rise above the pettiness and enjoy themselves.

Octavinus Augustus Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 10:47:00 - [121] Originally by: Jkol0 IMO UK and SF have done a fine job with what they had and id love to see someone try and prove otherwise and call it a FACT! Well, as a personal view I think that both U'K and SF are doing well with what they have in space. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement, but that could easily be said of any organisation out there - including CVA. What I personally dislike is this habit of Jade's of always throwing obvious spin into any debate. Take this thread for instance: It is supposed to be an AAR. But for some odd reason Jade just can't omit making it an obvious spin thread instead: Severence sucks and they are breaking up etc, etc, etc. This is just Jade's style I guess. She has been doing the exact same thing (under one name or another) in every conflict SF and the Amarr Loyalists have been involved in since my pilot license in EvE. I guess it has something to do with the way we individually perceive EvE. I would like for my enemies in EvE to throw everything they have at me to the best of their ability according to whatever strategy they find best (and me throwing whatever I have in the opposite direction). Regardless of who would win that conflict we would all have a lot of fun in the process. Jade's style of play is more like getting into the sandbox and then start throwing sand in everyones eyes until they leave. Her idea seems to be that if she's the last pilot in EvE she's also automatically the winner of it all. Fortunately for EvE, the people she fight have a lot of fun playing regardless of Jade's continous attempts to ruin the game experience for them. Consequently her forum behaviour is seen (at least to me) as a minor nuisance that can generally be ignored. Incidentally, this is also why I personally have such a high regard for U'K. Even if they have lost A LOT to CVA over the last year and even if there are obviously a lot of bitterness about the way RP has evolved U'K as an organisation tend to stick to the high road. I know of very few organisations that will stick to it throughout, even suffering the looses and setback suffered by U'K. I can only hope that if CVA is one day in a situation similar to that of U'K that I'll be able to behave myself as well as these guys generally do. To get back to the AAR: Although I wasn't there, I find that the concept used by U'K/SF was potentially brilliant and the execution less so. Much like the british display of tanks at Somme in 1916 it has the effect of revealing a new and dangerous weapon to the enemy without making any gains by it whatsoever. I simply cannot see this as anything but a failure. But as has been pointed out: If it was fun then I guess that's not a big concern. Q: How many Amarr does it take to change a light bulb? A: None, we have Minnies to do the menial chores.
Kai Zion Amarr The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.01.14 11:00:00 - [122] Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Jade's continous attempts to ruin the game experience for them. With this remark, you're guilty of the very thing you accused another of, in fact even more so. You made some good points in there, but you too have thrown in some obvious "spin" to push your own agenda, implying that SF is out to ruin anyone's game experience. I really hope you don't genuinely believe that's what driven them day in day out for the last 4+ years. There's a difference too, between you and your enemies in these posts. Jade/SF spins to to imply Severance was falling. That's their own interpretation of the facts at hand. That's fair play political gaming and psyops, if you ask me. You just spun to imply SF is out to ruin people's game. That's an entirely different, and less interesting/respectable type of political play/psyops, if you ask me. I really will leave it at that now. SF can speak for themselves, they don't need some random, irrelevant third party doing it for them.
Laerise Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.14 11:00:00 - [123] Another meaningless operation which lost you many ships and POS. And only to further one goal. Originally by: Jade Constantine "please please notice me!" Ironic that you need to mirror your own, deepest desire on someone who is as meaningless, as weak and as pathethic as you are. Black sheep, white sheep, they're all sheep, just as you are, go on, ba' all you want, it will never shake the foundations of mankind.
kincajou niten Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 12:22:00 - [124] Originally by: Kai Zion psyops Most of us like straight and honest opponent (like U'K, or TRI, or CI or any other major group who were invanding our space) and don't like spinning and lying opponent who is openly admit they are doing "psyops" (like SF) - only because of that anything such opponent says should be doublechecked. Now, when the fight ended, field looted, it's nice to see opponent's GF in one form or another. In the case of SF, it's not GF, its generally 'we are uber, you all suck, we win'. Again, with every major conflict we've been in, there were people on both sides throwing mud at the other side, but the leaders always told their members to stfu and go fight. Sadly that's not the case with SF. It might not look so for the outsiders in this thread, but to understand you would need to read everything SF posted since we had our first contact with them. With all that in mind, people from SF - please don't be surprised you see we treat you like you treat us. As to the stealth bombers - interesting concept but to implement it properly you would need to outnumber your opponent, in which case you can just bring the regular fleet. And even if you would have succeeded in downing one/two of our dreads you'd still loose ISK wise overall if you take price of 7 fully fitted towers into account. GF goes to U'K. :-) All of the above is imho. And sorry for bad english if it's offends anyone.
Mangold Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.01.14 12:59:00 - [125] Severance looks to have been in really deep trouble judging by their own posts above. A nice and well written report Jade. I enjoyed reading it.
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.14 13:58:00 - [126] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 14/01/2008 13:59:37 Originally by: kincajou niten Originally by: Kai Zion psyops Most of us like straight and honest opponent (like U'K, or TRI, or CI or any other major group who were invanding our space) and don't like spinning and lying opponent who is openly admit they are doing "psyops" (like SF) - only because of that anything such opponent says should be doublechecked. You need to rethink psyops if you think TRI was honest and didn't do any when fighting you guys. Not all of them happen on purpose, but they exist none the less. For example TRI just had this defensive PR going, by which they could forfeit every fight of their choosing, risk nothing, and basically exploit as much as possible risking as little as possible, by defense of doing it for fun and hating lag. This is why they got all the heat on the forums, not because everyone just "hates" TRI for no reason at all. When people realize that 2 opposing parties in EVE can't have fun at the same time, then hopefully this idiotic PR line will die out, but yeah that will take a awhile. (before you answer with CVA/UK had fun at similar times, no, they didn't. Not when you lost a fight to cva. Maybe 2 hours after that when you took your wolfpack to inflatable you had fun, but never at the same time, and that's as close as you'll get)
acompton Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.14 14:42:00 - [127] Nicely done Jade. Only Jade has the patented "Wall of Text"(tm) technique that doesn't make you regret your time reading it. Hooray for context! o7
Conlin Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:04:00 - [128] Originally by: Hardin Originally by: Conlin Originally by: Kai Zion I find it pretty telling that one side can happily admit their defeats and weaknesses and yet still hold their heads high because they had fun. All whilst the other side is busy nitpicking and getting butthurt over every single possible point they can, no matter how small, even feeling the need to point out defeats and weaknesses that have already been admitted in the very first post and subsequent others. It's pretty clear who the "bitter" ones are and what group is still having fun - even as they try something others would deem impossible. Just for you Nek , read it , digest it and rethink your next reply before you join the rest in this topic . The day our pos,s were coming out of reinforced we had almost a 70 man gang . And there was nothing but humour and laughing on our comms . That sounds more to be people enjoying themselves than bitterness to me , even down to the last shot fired in KBP. One last thing .... who the hell are you ?. What a brazen-fac,d varlet art thou ... I actually think Kai wasn't referring to UK/SF with this but then maybe I read it wrong Maybe you did , maybe I did Her first post was a positive post and with that I surmised from all the negative flame posts from sev etc she was having a dig . Anyway it was still fun to try and it took us away from the pos hugging / lag blobs , and more importantly we had fun . And thats what I pay CCP for every month .
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:23:00 - [129] I think some indignation from -7- is a bit warranted. Something that seems lost in the whole "geurilla revolutionaries" thing is that Ushra'khan and Star Fraction outnumber -7- by a decent amount, have been in a state of war (Concord or otherwise) with -7- for about three months, have a decidedly more veteran pilot base...and even with the timing of tower deployment matching TRI's assault on CVA and CVA being forced into sheer survival mode, these two organizations were unsuccessful in bringing down -7- in the last month. They're understandably proud of lasting under the pressure. It's no more wrong (or bitter) for them to point out that they were not about to fall than it is for Jade or others to imply that the were about to fall.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:30:00 - [130] Originally by: Octavinus Augustus What I personally dislike is this habit of Jade's of always throwing obvious spin into any debate. Take this thread for instance: It is supposed to be an AAR. But for some odd reason Jade just can't omit making it an obvious spin thread instead: Severence sucks and they are breaking up etc, etc, etc. Now Octavinus. One thing I'm immediately going to say to you is that in your accusation of "spin" against my ARR you have in my opinion immediately opted to "spin" yourself in a very obvious way. You have neatly condensed this paragraph: Originally by: Jade Constantine This was almost the end for Sev3rance. The pressure was growing, their space fleet largely impotent and helpless with the CVA fleet generally POSÆed and docked from the threat of Triumvirate and morale inside the CVA holder alliance was diminished and threadbare. (Many alliance defections occurred, individuals, whole corps, while general numbers of active pilots suffered badly.) To your own interpretation/spin: Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Severence sucks and they are breaking up etc, etc, etc. And in doing that you are replacing the informed opinion of a dispute that I've been a part of and close observer of for the best part of three months with a throwaway line of smacktalk = "Sev3rance sucks". And you are definitely doing exactly what you are accusing me of doing, "spinning". I'll make it clear for you at this point. Sev3rance does not "suck". Sev3rance had been put under a huge amount of pressure by dedicated SF/UK pilots for a long time. Sev3rance had seen its allies in CSA and BORG alliance generally ousted from KBP with parts (or entire) corporations surrendering and leaving the war. While CVA were involved with TRI you weren't able to help Sev3rance and they were paying the price. In my opinion if TRI had remained active in Providence for another 4 weeks then Sev3rance would have lost all towers in KBP and would be out of the war. You can disagree with this analysis by all means but please don't insult the intelligence of readers here to try to label my analysis "spin". Quote: Jade's style of play is more like getting into the sandbox and then start throwing sand in everyones eyes until they leave. Her idea seems to be that if she's the last pilot in EvE she's also automatically the winner of it all. Fortunately for EvE, the people she fight have a lot of fun playing regardless of Jade's continous attempts to ruin the game experience for them. Consequently her forum behaviour is seen (at least to me) as a minor nuisance that can generally be ignored. Again I don't really understand why you feel to need to make this personal Octavinus. I don't know what you mean by "the sandbox" in this context. And I really don't understand why you think I'm trying to "ruin the game experience" for people by fighting an ideological war against enclosurist powers in Providence. Aren't you roleplaying an evil slaver cackling maniacally while whipping slaves and counting your wealth of the evening Octavinus? You have willingly chosen to play "the bad guys" in the Amarr vs Matari war and you camp up all the aspects of the regressive tyranny you are building down there. I can't see how you have grounds to complain about me "ruining your gameplay experience" by bringing a force and campaign to oppose your plans in Providence. Is there something I've missed? CVA seemed to take the invasion from TRI with good-humour and confidence and pride. Why do you have to get so defensive and allege "sandbox-kicking" and "gameplay experience ruining" when you are attacked by and organization a tenth of TRI's size and consistently the underdog in all engagements? Why can't you just play the game and accept that we are out to destroy your character's pretend slavery empire in Providence and ruin all the in-chracter dirty deals and sense of ease your "Amarrian evildoers" have achieved thus far. Thats the game. Why not play it? "I might not have meant anything by it"

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:37:00 - [131] Originally by: Garreck I think some indignation from -7- is a bit warranted. Something that seems lost in the whole "geurilla revolutionaries" thing is that Ushra'khan and Star Fraction outnumber -7- by a decent amount, have been in a state of war (Concord or otherwise) with -7- for about three months, have a decidedly more veteran pilot base...and even with the timing of tower deployment matching TRI's assault on CVA and CVA being forced into sheer survival mode, these two organizations were unsuccessful in bringing down -7- in the last month. That is precisely the point Garreck. I said that Sev3rance had been under a huge amount of pressure and were close to falling. I am absolutely convinced that had TRI remained active in Providence for another month Sev3rance would not have survived. While your dreadnaught fleet was forcibly docked from the TRI threat we had free reign in KBP and were able to reinforce towers at will with our dozen such hulls and Sev3rance had absolutely no answer. This isn't about Sev3rance having "pride" at surviving the pressure. This was a very real and honest assessment from my lips that Sev3rance were not able to survive in Providence without CVA support. Now you can disagree with that by all means but that will simply be your alternative opinion. This is all opinion. Nobody is "lying" (except when addressing particular items of fantasy as in some of the Sev posts above). Its generally all "difference of opinion." Perhaps we'll never know Garreck. Or perhaps CVA will be attacked by somebody else and Sev will have to stand "alone" again. Ultimately though people need to keep their temper when posting public debate. If you believe that Sev3rance wasn't about to fall during the TRI assault on CVA and UK/SF capital assault on KBP then perhaps you'd like to tell us how they would have managed to survive, rather than simply asserting their right to appear wounded and bitter in the rebuttal's here? It would certainly improve the quality of debate from your side of the table at this point "I might not have meant anything by it"
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:41:00 - [132] Edited by: Xennith on 14/01/2008 15:44:40 Originally by: Garreck Something that seems lost in the whole "geurilla revolutionaries" thing is that Ushra'khan and Star Fraction outnumber -7- by a decent amount, have been in a state of war (Concord or otherwise) with -7- for about three months, have a decidedly more veteran pilot base...and even with the timing of tower deployment matching TRI's assault on CVA and CVA being forced into sheer survival mode, these two organizations were unsuccessful in bringing down -7- in the last month. Id be interested to see the numbers actually, I think Sev has more pilots but that might just be perception being affected by the "counts every foeman twice" syndrome, still, one thing i do remember quite vividly from the last few weeks (just after TRI left) was CVA jumping in a 130 man fleet to rep one of -7-s large poses, at the time we had approx 14 pilots in KBP. As such, i dont think that severance have that much of a numbers issue. Nobody is denying that being outnumbered is a big problem in EVE fleetfights, but with more of the innovation shown in operation fedaykin, we might be able to turn these things into oppertunites for good (fun) fights. (note that this post is my own opinion, and does not constitute any attempt to speak on the behalf of anyone else). We come for our people
Deathsoul Caldari Evolution	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:47:00 - [133] Jade, your just back and already those walls of text :) i see you havent forgot anything my Dear.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:51:00 - [134] Originally by: Xennith Id be interested to see the numbers actually, I think Sev has more pilots but that might just be perception being affected by the "counts every foeman twice" syndrome, still, one thing i do remember quite vividly from the last few weeks (just after TRI left) was CVA jumping in a 130 man fleet to rep one of -7-s large poses, at the time we had approx 14 pilots in KBP. As such, i dont think that severance have that much of a numbers issue. We have been tracking the numbers quite closely since the beginning of the war. At the beginning Sev3rance+CSA+BORG (the mainly KBP providence levies) definitely had more numbers than UK/SF at peak. This was steadily eroded by the destruction of BORG, reduction of CSA, and indeed from material defections from Sev3rance's own ranks over the first two months of war. And this of course to say nothing of the occassional "big squadron" of wider Providence levies that Sev3rance could count on from CVA led fleets of CVA/Paxton/Slyph/IAC etc when matters became dire. Its certainly the case that Sev3rance today does have numbers problems however and on recent data can no longer stand alone against SF let alone SF and Ushra'khan. That much is something I think all sides on the conflict can certainly agree with. Hence for the foreseeable future a part of CVA's main fleet is going to be tied down in KBP and empire approaches to "bulk up" and protect this key critical system. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:51:00 - [135] Originally by: Jade Constantine Ultimately though people need to keep their temper when posting public debate. Which I've learned from a long time of Contstantine debate actually reads "say what ever you wish as long as you don't disagree with my assessments." Writing off -7- indignation at your implication that they were about to collapse as a temper issue is no different than many of us writing off those very claims as spin to cover the fact that you campaign has, to date, failed. Originally by: Xennith Id be interested to see the numbers actually, I think Sev has more pilots Ushra'Khan alone outnumber -7-. 280 to 250 in approximate numbers. Star Fraction has like 135 or some-such.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:52:00 - [136] Originally by: Deathsoul Jade, your just back and already those walls of text :) i see you havent forgot anything my Dear. Tell the truth the long exile probably did me some good Deathsoul - I learned to actually pvp a bit while banned from posting "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 16:06:00 - [137] Originally by: Garreck ... no different than many of us writing off those very claims as spin to cover the fact that you campaign has, to date, failed. The life of the revolutionary and the freedom fighter is a constant round of failures and defeats Garreck. Every day we wake up in the knowledge that we have failed to destroy the tyrannies that enrage us. Each evening we go to sleep in the full awareness that we have failed to scatter the masses of sheepish coverts to the Amarrian regime in Providence, and we've failed to light the fires of freedom in that benighted region. We fail when we see your Towers remaining. We fail when you see "neutrals" gulled into bowing to the Amarrian powerbase there. A thousand little failures and a thousand more. Its a constant diet of failure Garreck and one we've gotten well used to in five years of failing to win this revolution of the hearts and minds and future of the capsuleer soul. And you know what Garreck. We'll keep on failing because our failures taste better than the success that comes from submission and assimilation into crass surrender to the Amarrian body politic in Providence. Our failures blaze brightly in the dim shadows of your success. Our defeats are as glorious as your victories are mundane. Our losses as beautiful as you gains are dim and tawdry. We are failures Garreck. We fail to submit. We fail to surrender. We fail to die. And we'll keep on failing right up to the time we kill you. And when that happens ironically enough there won't be any of you left alive to applaud our ... success. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 16:11:00 - [138] Now that is far more becoming and far more appropriate, Jade. I like it.
Kai Zion Amarr The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.01.14 16:17:00 - [139]
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 16:42:00 - [140] I've no idea who took this camera footage of the Bomber attack but it gives an excellent view of what it looks like to be in that battlespace during an operation of this scale. Stealth Bomber attack on CVA Dreadnaught Enjoy. "I might not have meant anything by it"

Erikel Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2008.01.14 16:45:00 - [141] That was a great post, can i order ten more please.
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:08:00 - [142] Ms. Constantine, as you've probably noticed most of the angry posts haven't really mentioned Ursha'Khan or even pointed at them. In just about every case the finger is pointed straight at Star Fraction. The Providence alliances have a healthy respect for Ursha'Khan and attitude generally changes when fighting one of their pilots or when we see one in system. Because of the history of the system we expect that from them. That is completely different when we see or fight Star Fraction. As many have already mentioned in one form or another you are a propoganda addict. We Providence alliances tend to get fed up when you spin keeps going and going on about things that are flat out lies or selective posting. So when we see this "intel" you post we all just blink and say "what? when did this happen?" Originally by: Jade Constantine In my opinion if TRI had remained active in Providence for another 4 weeks then Sev3rance would have lost all towers in KBP and would be out of the war. You can disagree with this analysis by all means but please don't insult the intelligence of readers here to try to label my analysis "spin". This of course is one of the most frustrating things for Sev3rance. Our stations were fully fuelled and pimped out. Control of the gate changed hands whenever one group had more pilots awake (we have high and low hours which you know well) so getting in/out supplies wasn't a problem. After the first attempt at removing the SF/UK towers and the subsequent interferance by TRI during that op, NEITHER side dared bring out their capitals without risking a 200 man battleship fleet being dropped on their heads. In fact in the entire conflict not a single UK or SF ship was seen in action until the later evacuation by the enemy. We are still confused how the heck you came up with that accessment. As you can see we kind of felt like the Monty Python guy being loaded into the cart say, "hello! I'm not dead!" by the rest of the community. If anything thats one of the issues which has bred so much contempt for Star Fraction. The other is the devestating loss and the change of reasoning for the initial sovereignty attempt. First it was a reclamation. Then it was a foothold. Then after the loss it was just a "sovereignty harassment". Spin, spin, and more spin. We've come to the conclusion after reading much of your walls of text throughout the years that you could lose all of your ships, your T2 bpo's, your pilots, cosmo would start wearing funny hats, and you worked as a SWG dev and still manage find an excuse to write that you are "holding your heads high". The final thing that annoys us most is how personal you have gotten involved in this. The amount of energy you put into the slander is phenomenal. Not even UK who have a historical interest in the area go through those kinds of hoops (they jab us about the pos shields and we jab them about the cloaks). SF while now allies of UK never had that kind of precedent until recently. In fact we were still all surprised at the venom you held against CVA and anyone associated with them until details became known about your history and them. At this point we realized that its gone beyond roleplay and became a personal vendetta. We're fine with that now. We'll just have to keep surviving as usual and pick up more experience from the whole thing and get stronger. Like it or not you've made us the underdogs here. Yeah yeah, I know I wasn't but its hard to ignore.
Octavinus Augustus Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:18:00 - [143] Originally by: Jade Constantine Sev3rance does not "suck". Sev3rance had been put under a huge amount of pressure by dedicated SF/UK pilots for a long time. Well, if there is one thing we Amarrian loyalists hates it's having our illusions shattered. With a post like this you have certainly surprised me to say the least. If you mean what you say (which I assume that you do), I guess the problem lies in the way many of your posts can be read either IC or OoC. I will maintain that many of your postings can be easily interpreted as "throwing sand in people's eyes" - wether you intend them as such or not. However, I'm a strong believer in "Credit where it is due" - and you do deserve credit for writing the above. Originally by: Jade Constantine Again I don't really understand why you feel to need to make this personal Octavinus. I have never intended my post to be a personal attack - if you have read it in such a way, I think an apology on my part is in order. The reason I used your name in particular is that I do not feel that the critisism is valid for SF as a whole. I have read and enjoyed many threads (by The Cosmopolite for instance) and I know well enough that ingame you have many skilled and honorable pilots - yourself included. My post was meant solely as a comment on your personal posting style, not as an attack on SF, nor as a personal attack on you. Reading my own post again, I see it can be read as such though. That wasn't the intention. Originally by: Jade Constantine Aren't you roleplaying an evil slaver cackling maniacally while whipping slaves and counting your wealth of the evening Octavinus? You have willingly chosen to play "the bad guys" in the Amarr vs Matari war and you camp up all the aspects of the regressive tyranny you are building down there. Personally I don't see my character as an "evil slaver". It's more a matter of him being "*** bin Laden in Power". A fanatic who simply KNOWS that his beliefs are the right ones and will sacrifice anyone and anything to further them. But thats another story entirely. Originally by:** Jade Constantine I can't see how you have grounds to complain about me "ruining your gameplay experience" by bringing a force and campaign to oppose your plans in Providence. I don't. As said in my original post, ingame I expect you to throw everything you have at us in whatever way you find most efficient. I'll certainly throw whatever I can find in the opposite direction. Originally by: Jade Constantine Is there something I've missed? CVA seemed to take the invasion from TRI with good-humour and confidence and pride. Why do you have to get so defensive and allege "sandbox-kicking" and "gameplay experience ruining" when you are attacked by and organization a tenth of TRI's size and consistently the underdog in all engagements? Back in my PIE days I was "involved" in the SF/PIE "war". The impression you had on the people in PIE was basically as if all the children in the local kindergarden sat in the local sandbox playing. One child then started throwing sand in everyone else's eyes. Very soon noone could be bothered to play at all (this is also what I was referring to above when saying "sandbox" and "throwing sand"). The impression you came across with basically ruined what could have been a fun experience for all. Wether that impression was deliberate or not, it certainly had the effect of a lot of people turning away and concentrating on other things. Personally, I think that was a shame. Unfortunately, it seems pretty much the same thing is happening between SF and Severence right now. Q: How many Amarr does it take to change a light bulb? A: None, we have Minnies to do the menial chores.
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:23:00 - [144] Originally by: Keorythe Last post from me so feel free to flame all you want without any further responses. COAD combat is much tougher than fleet.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:29:00 - [145] The problem for your assessment Keorythe is that weÆve played a part in the campaign for the last three months and know precisely how your expressed opinion of the UshraÆkhan switches from extreme to extreme depending on your latest attempt to divide-and-rule or denigrate their capabilities. All that is being posted now from Sev3rance is a fresh (well I hesitate to call it psyops) shall I just say initiative to try to vent your (considerable) frustrations on Star Fraction at your own disappointment at not being able to hold space in Providence without the more or less full time support of a larger power (CVA). Its rather painfully transparent and something that is noted by the huge majority of neutral commentators on this thread. Still, onto your point about the Towers. You are missing the point. While TRI were tying up CVA we had capital ships in KBP and you couldnÆt counter them without CVA support. This whole discussion is about me saying that Sev3rance was on the point of defeat and was saved ultimately by the TRI pullout and CVAÆs full intervention in your favour and thus far absolutely nothing posted by any Sev3rance speaker on this thread has disputed this analysis in any substantive or credible way. We had space superiority and in-system capital ship assets. Doesn't matter how you set up your Towers, they go down to a Dreadnaught fleet unless you have full CVA support and intervention. We all know this, you know this, CVA know this. Its silly to keep debating the point really. On to the remainder of your comments - what you describe as ôcontemptö for the Star Fraction is something I read as ôfearö, ôfrustrationö, ôangerö. I mean honestly Keorythe. WeÆve been at war for close to three months now. YouÆve had a lot of time to bring to fights to us on your own if you were capable of such a thing. And I promise you, IF I ever felt ôcontemptö and ôloathingö for a enemy as you profess to feel for Star Fraction I wouldnÆt be content to let them base two jumps from my ôcapital systemö without significant attempts to dislodge them from the foothold with some good old-fashioned space combat. I'd certainly not be prepared to let them idle around the gates of your home and blow up your allies without any substantive response. So yes, I acknowledge we have probably earned your hatred Keorythe. We came to providence to settle a score with you (and in the process bring the CVA to the realization they needed to defend a ôholderö alliance 24/7). You attacked one of our ships in the spring, in return weÆve destroyed an estimated 28billion worth of your shipping. Driven whole corporations from your alliance, destroyed an allied alliance. WeÆve prevented you from growing and exploiting the space you were given. WeÆve made it impossible for you to travel freely in space. Your mission-runners, ratters, traders and industrials live in fear of us. WeÆve certainly brought the pain to KBP so I acknowledge Keorythe. You are right to feel upset and angry. But if you can see through those emotions then at some point you probably need to see through to the true cause of your pain and the mistake that led you to follow the CVA standings regime and attack a (then neutral) Star Fraction vessel in the service of your Amarr overlords. I wonder if granted the power of foresight back then if that Sev3rance pilot would have rather respected our neutrality and held fire. Who knows? And to your last point about how "personal" this feels. You simply misunderstand. This is our "game" Keorythe. Its the whole reason Star Fraction plays Eve and its the reason people join us. Our game is about shooting territorial tyrants and bad guys in the name of radical freespace and freedom of choice. Its not personal, we see you as your characters. You are "roleplaying" CVA's "slaver hounds" in Providence. You chose to work for them. We're simply enriching your gameplay experience by providing the opposition to your chosen role in Eve. "I might not have meant anything by it"
M00dy Killed In Action The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:47:00 - [146] /me ♥'s Jade. Killed In Action The Crimson Federation
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:50:00 - [147] Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Back in my PIE days I was "involved" in the SF/PIE "war". The impression you had on the people in PIE was basically as if all the children in the local kindergarden sat in the local sandbox playing. One child then started throwing sand in everyone else's eyes. Very soon noone could be bothered to play at all (this is also what I was referring to above when saying "sandbox" and "throwing sand"). The impression you came across with basically ruined what could have been a fun experience for all. Wether that impression was deliberate or not, it certainly had the effect of a lot of people turning away and concentrating on other things. Personally, I think that was a shame. All I can Octavinus is your impression was wrong. Personally I feel that the reason you didn't "enjoy" the SF/PIE war has a lot to do with what Swamp Zero had to say in this thread a little while ago. Amarrian roleplayers had had a long history of pretty much endless victory against their chosen opponents in the couple of years previous. And its easy to be urbane and pleasant when you are winning each night and blowing up dozens of enemy warships. Everytime you obliterate an enemy fleet the mind subsconsciously wants to type "GF" (with a big grin on your face). But the reality is its much harder to keep a sense of perspective and mutual respect when you are losing. The SF vs PIE matchup in the spring was not a fair matchup. We knew that from the beginning. It was a blitzkrieg campaign designed to suppress PIE and have you ask for allied support so we'd get to take on the whole Amarrian bloc at one time and ultimately it worked. But this wasn't about smack or local disrespect. SF pilots always keep a high standard of personal control on those issues. This was about frustrations from your side that the war was one-sided and we always outnumbered and outgunned you and as your old guard chose to go innactive and absent themelves from the front lines things got worse and worse for the matchups. I understand all this and (as I said to Keorythe above) I sympathize with the anger and frustration felt. But its wise after the event to have a little self analysis and understand where it truly comes from. End of the day Octavinus we didn't wardec PIE to get "fun fights". We wardecced PIE to hurt you badly enough in material losses that CVA felt obliged to intervene and bail you out. We wanted to fight the CVA outside of Providence and their allies there and we accomplished that task by staking you out as the "judas goat" on that occasion. Quote: Unfortunately, it seems pretty much the same thing is happening between SF and Severence right now. In many ways yes it is. But its an unavoidable part of the kind of warfare we have to do to get manageable fights from CVA. Until we get to the stage where SF and allies can stand toe-to-toe with CVA(Providence)+IAC and whoever in a pitched fleet fight we are going to be fighting "dirty" and picking on CVA allies and hurting them in such ways we can until the CVA feel obliged to come defend them and thereby commit to fighting on our terms. Where its a probably a little worse for Sev3rance is that they consider themselves "non-roleplayers" who are are being picked upon by "roleplayers" but the the reality is that we consider they have made a roleplay choice to act as the CVA's "slaver hounds" and placed themselves in this situation by attacking one of our ships. Ultimately you can tell who is most confident in most conflicts by looking to see who looks upset, who looks frustrated and bitter. I think its very apparent that SF (and Ushra'khan) are very happy with the current situation and the gameplay experience we can offer to our respective memberbase. We are roleplaying underdogs and freedom fighters and revolutionaries with unconventional tactics, courage and panache. This is our perfect game Octavinus. This thread is about US having fun. I wouldn't expect you guys to enjoy it. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Snakester Caldari Blood and Money Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.14 18:15:00 - [148] Originally by: Jade Constantine You attacked one of our ships in the spring, in return weÆve destroyed an estimated 28billion worth of your shipping. Where have u gotten this 28 billion estimate from Jade?. i'd like to know. Again , from your (SF) KB, stats for Sev3rance. Alliance details - Sev3rance Kills: 329 Losses: 461 Damage done (ISK): 16781.1M Damage received (ISK): 17873.04M Efficiency: 48.42% Ship class K L Assault frigate 17 14 Battlecruiser 21 76 Battleship 75 72 Black Ops 0 0 Cap. Industrial 0 0 Capsule 56 135 Ship class K L Carrier 1 1 Command ship 11 8 Covert ops 29 20 Cruiser 16 36 Destroyer 0 5 Dreadnought 0 0 Ship class K L Electronic Attack Ship 1 0 Exhumer 0 2 Freighter 0 1 Frigate 2 14 Heavy assault 29 17 Heavy Interdictor 1 0 Ship class K L Industrial 0 23 Interceptor 41 4 Interdictor 6 1 Jump Freighter 0 0 Logistics 3 0 Marauder 0 0 Ship class K L Mining barge 0 4 Mothership 0 0 Recon ship 18 10 Shuttle 0 11 Titan 0 0 Transport 1 4 It seems rather even in all honesty, and to think, SF are all PvPr's, whilst only i'd say 20% of -7- are , anyone remember Miner's with Pitchforks?. Snake. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium	Posted - 2008.01.14 18:21:00 - [149] I can only assume someone else will try this and wonder why it didn't work so well I think -7- are just a bit hacked off at getting told they lost after they just won, after months of fighting in which they had war dec from not only star fraction, but Tri as well for much of that time. Remember, this is CAOD not the usual RP forums, even though all of Jade's post could easily be in character. As for recruitment (and don't be fooled, this is as much an advertisement for SF as a battle report), if you want to roleplay one of those arsey students who still think Marx was onto something Also I love the sub-headings: Defeat the CVA in Providence. Glorious really! Muhhahhahahah. Or are they? Just go back and read the detail especially on that top one, look at the facts on the ground and make your own mind up. Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists Recruiting
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.14 18:50:00 - [150] Edited by: Keorythe on 14/01/2008 18:55:19 Originally by: Jade Constantine All that is being posted now from Sev3rance is a fresh (well I hesitate to call it psyops) shall I just say initiative to try to vent your (considerable) frustrations on Star Fraction at your own disappointment at not being able to hold space in Providence without the more or less full time support of a larger power (CVA). Its rather painfully transparent and something that is noted by the huge majority of neutral commentators on this thread. I'm afraid that its neither transparent nor applicable in this case Ms. Constantine. Neither side was able to do much with the threat of TRI in the area. Neither SF nor Sev were able to do more than battle at the gates which happened frequently. Please remember that Sev3rance was decced by TRI, Star Fraction was not. We wont even get into the neutral commentators thing. Quote: Still, onto your point about the Towers. You are missing the point. While TRI were tying up CVA we had capital ships in KBP and you couldnÆt counter them without CVA support. This whole discussion is about me saying that Sev3rance was on the point of defeat and was saved ultimately by the TRI pullout and CVAÆs full intervention in your favour and thus far absolutely nothing posted by any Sev3rance speaker on this thread has disputed this analysis in any substantive or credible way. We had space superiority and in-system capital ship assets. Doesn't matter how you set up your Towers, they go down to a Dreadnaught fleet unless you have full CVA support and intervention. We all know this, you know this, CVA know this. Its silly to keep debating the point really. Once again I beg to differ. An attempt was made when your towers were originally placed. In the middle of the op intel came in that a rather huge TRI gang heavy on the battleships was enroute. The op was scrapped and no attempt was made until they left. Sev3rance had its own heavy compliment of caps in system {the ones listed in the tower killmails ) the entire time and was prepared to use them. Cynoing in some capitals in not a major accomplishment especially when cyno jammers are a relatively new thing. Tower spam during off hours to take sovereignty isn't a major accomplisment either. Claiming space superiority without proof is fairly easy to do as is claiming you're a Swiss kangaroo. Fact of the matter is that our towers were never removed by your forces for the same reasons that we couldn't have a go at yours. Once again, proof or stfu. Quote: And I promise you, IF I ever felt ôcontemptö and ôloathingö for a enemy as you profess to feel for Star Fraction I wouldnÆt be content to let them base two jumps from my ôcapital systemö without significant attempts to dislodge them from the foothold with some good old-fashioned space combat. I believe every corp/alliance who has done empire war knows how fun it is to "dislodge" an enemy from npc stations. I also believe anyone who has every fought you knows empire war (and stations) is your specialty. Nice try there. Quote: WeÆve prevented you from growing and exploiting the space you were given. I'm sorry, what? You know we had some initial problems in the beginning adapting to the perma-war thing trying to get most of the carebears to understand that you can't fly haulers in empire. We even lost a freighter like that. Since then we've adapted and exploited our territory just fine thank you. If you keep saying that we "fear" you then maybe it will happen. However, currently you're only at the "pain in the rear" stage. What you've done Ms. Constantine is helped this alliance separate the wheat from the chaff. Shown us how to settle into a real war footing. Given us experience in combat logistics, rethinking profit strategies, and even how to setup our POS's. We've recruited new members and corporations willing to be involved on such a footing. You've given us ideas for combat and strategies for countering them. Our operations have slowly expanded as we learn to cope with the war as other alliances have already in their own wars. As much as you keep repeating it we aren't going to just go away and your efforts are making us much more stronger. If anything the combat experience was sorely needed and we actually have to thank you for helping us shore up those gaps. Yes you've killed some of our ships (the freighter loss did hurt). We returned the favor according to your boards. Although we dont plan to doctor our killboards by restating ship losses at "jita mineral" prices like you have done despite constructing everything ourselves. So far 3 months on a permanent war footing down and Sev3rance is still kicking it strong with another year to go. By anyone's account thats a pretty good track record there.

The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:04:00 - [151] Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 14/01/2008 19:06:16 Originally by: Keorythe Although we dont plan to doctor our killboards by restating ship losses at "jita mineral" prices like you have done despite constructing everything ourselves. We have not doctored our killboard. It is under construction to accomodate Trinity features and needed a reset to default features - which includes the prices you refer to. That is simply a fact. I'm not getting into a debate about it. Particularly as all these comments about our killboard are actually against the rules of the forums here. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Threv Echandari Caldari Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:04:00 - [152] Good Job Jade, While you might have failed to acheive objectives you certainly showed the validity of the tactic and highlighted waht im[povements could be made. (What was left unsaid could speak Volumes) I noticed more than few people commenting on how a Conventional FLeet could have been used to similar effect. What they dont understand is a Cost benefit analyis should show that Far more could be acheived with far less. Losing a 50 man SB gang configured as yours was is far cheaper than a 50 man Raven fleet. (I assume you didn't lose the SIN?) (With probably similar results except once you lost the Raven your pilots would be loath to lose another one) For "insurgent operations" Cost is a factor. With a little Tweaking and better target selection this is defintely a new tool in the toolbox. (I only wish we could have used it in our campaign first!) Good luck UK and SF!
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:05:00 - [153] Originally by: Jade Constantine I wouldn't expect you guys to enjoy it. Actually, if CVA and SF agree on anything, it's that this perfect game is so enjoyable because it is something that both sides take very "seriously" and even a bit "personally." It's gritty, it's nasty...it's something we can allow ourselves be passionate about, become heated about, and really just care about. It can go too far, does go too far, but at least in a war between our organizations you won't tend to have the cop out of "hahaha, you're taking it seriously so you lose." And besides...beyond the forum drama, I prefer a game of cat and mouse in-game to slide-show any day.
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:22:00 - [154] If you don't know how to argue with an expert in the field, don't argue. You'll look like an idiot. San Matari Official forums
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:30:00 - [155] Originally by: Keorythe I believe every corp/alliance who has done empire war knows how fun it is to "dislodge" an enemy from npc stations. I also believe anyone who has every fought you knows empire war (and stations) is your specialty. Nice try there. We have done it in the past. Just because you might lack the stamina and commitment to do it yourselves doesn't make it "impossible". If you are saying its "no fun" to fight us in empire then you are right. It isn't "fun" for you, but nevertheless its a valuable weapon in our arsenal and something you are eventually going to have to grapple with if you hope to demonstrate yourselves the "holders" of the KBP pipe to Providence. Quote: What you've done Ms. Constantine is helped this alliance separate the wheat from the chaff. Shown us how to settle into a real war footing. Given us experience in combat logistics, rethinking profit strategies, and even how to setup our POS's. We've recruited new members and corporations willing to be involved on such a footing. Everybody says that when they are losing corporations and membership Keorythe. Maybe for you its true. Maybe it isn't. Time will ultimately tell. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Mourn Navarre Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:31:00 - [156] I have to say I very much enjoyed that report. Although I think Jade was crazy to even think about ambushing a dread with that many bombers, I do have to say it is nice to see she at least tried instead of sitting on her butt and watching. I also applaud the quick fallback plan of using the bombers in other ways. After the initial mission failure, the bombers showed some worth afterwards. Too many people get demoralized when the initial plan fails and cannot come up with something else to try, or prefer to sit on their hands and do nothing when things do not work out as planned. As for the 'spin' thing, as an old hand at EVE not to mention someone with a long history in the RP scene (if the UK council hasn't figured out who I am by now they can bend over and kiss a certain part of anatomy:)), most RP alliances do NOT use alt spies so one can only mostly base their information on heresay and plain old observation. So when you start to see members and corporations start to drop off like flies, it does make one feel that things are falling apart.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:32:00 - [157] Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Jade Constantine I wouldn't expect you guys to enjoy it. Actually, if CVA and SF agree on anything, it's that this perfect game is so enjoyable because it is something that both sides take very "seriously" and even a bit "personally." It's gritty, it's nasty...it's something we can allow ourselves be passionate about, become heated about, and really just care about. Ah Garreck but thats you. You're the bear we hoped to bait. Its less fun for the Judas Goat "I might not have meant anything by it"
Mourn Navarre Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:37:00 - [158] Edited by: Mourn Navarre on 14/01/2008 19:42:19 Originally by: Jade Constantine Ah Garreck but thats you. You're the bear we hoped to bait. Its less fun for the Judas Goat Don't mind Garreck. He likes to go to sleep at gates so he can get killed. :) Not that much different than the loss Siobhan took once. Now I am starting to feel old thinking about the old days.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:44:00 - [159] Originally by: Mourn Navarre Don't mind Garreck. He likes to go to sleep at gates so he can get killed. :) Not that much different than the loss Siobhan took once. Can't think of that ever having happened to me, to be honest. I do tend to make myself readily available for combat, however. You'll want to create an alt corp or something, though; newb corp postings tend to get nerfed around here...
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:44:00 - [160] Originally by: Spoon Thumb I think -7- are just a bit hacked off at getting told they lost after they just won, after months of fighting in which they had war dec from not only star fraction, but Tri as well for much of that time. This is your problem in perception. Nobody told Sev3rance "they lost". I said that Sev3rance were on the point of breaking down into a defeated force during the TRI intervention against CVA. They were spared by TRI pulling out and leaving CVA free to travel freely and deploy capital ships again in Sev3rance's defense. What the TRI war in Providence proved more than anything is that Sev3rance cannot hold space without significant CVA intervention road the clock. You are going to keep on being annoyed and irritated by my assessments and analysis of the situation Spoon Thumb unless you read what I actually write - rather than what you think (or wish) I'd written. There is a lot of difference between saying X side "lost". And X side were "saved" by circumstance Y and allied force Z. If what you are actually saying is that you think Sev3rance would have survived in KBP without CVA support then thats your opinion. I think its wrong obviously, but at least have the courtesy and courage to come out and say that directly. "I might not have meant anything by it"

Mourn Navarre Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:50:00 - [161] Originally by: Garreck Can't think of that ever having happened to me, to be honest. I do tend to make myself readily available for combat, however. You'll want to create an alt corp or something, though; newb corp postings tend to get nerfed around here... This was several years ago with my original character before I gave him up. This is my main now. In fact, this was back when Yulai was a super highway so it was quite some time ago. And I remember you sitting on the gate in a cruiser so being a war target I shot you but you didn't shoot back so I stopped. But then I figured, if I don't take you out, someone else is going to so I finished off your ship. After all, you were on a travel route towards Rens. Better me than someone else. :)
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.01.14 21:50:00 - [162] Congratulations to SF/UK for having the balls to try something new! You are correct. When faced with a force that looked conventionally inassailable, most groups would simply have slunk away and hid. Instead, you came up with something creative and innovative and gave it a whirl. No, it didn't work. But heck yeah, he who fails to innovate, who fails to try, will never succeed at anything worthwhile. I touch my brow in respect, for the worthiness of the attempt. May you have many more, and be dogged with an unfair abundance of success.
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.14 22:32:00 - [163] The nice thing about Star Fraction is the opportunity to try out these things. And we are always looking for more creative solutions. And of course it has to be done with style! I've enjoyed the previous phase of our operation, and I will enjoy the upcoming ones. Fedaykin was a blast. And best of all it fits so well within what Star Fraction is. I can't wait to do it again. The scalability is beautiful as well. It easily allows other people to join in who want to join in the fight.
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.14 22:37:00 - [164] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 14/01/2008 22:37:10 Originally by: Kovid And best of all it fits so well within what Star Fraction is. stylish, dramatic, but useless? (boosh)
Grishius Amarr HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:02:00 - [165] This thread needs more goon comments. Somehow I think only they can actually comprehend what they are reading.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:03:00 - [166] Originally by: Mistress Suffering No, it didn't work. But heck yeah, he who fails to innovate, who fails to try, will never succeed at anything worthwhile. Well at least made a hell of a video . Any chance we can have this uploaded on eve files or eve tube ???
Daelan Lok'errt OMNYX Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:11:00 - [167] One of the best reports I've read. To learn about the background was nice too. Good luck with your fight.
Octavinus Augustus Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.15 07:49:00 - [168] Originally by: Jade Constantine Some more or less irrelevant argumentation. You clearly avoid (intentionally or not?) to relate to the point of my posting. In the Amarr Loyalist Block we have a lot of OoC respect for the people who are bringing it on ingame and a lot less respect for those who choose to bring their battles onto the forums. You obviously belong to the second group. When you ask how it can be that CVA can respect Tri when they attack and "get defensive" when you do, the answer is simple really. Organisations like TRI, U'K, CI and most others we have fought have brought it ingame and left it there. You tend to bring your socalled psy-ops onto the forums throwing what is plainly spoken a heapload of garbage at your opponents. A clear example is your current "campaign" against Severence, who according to you can't stand on their own feet. It is only a matter of a few weeks since it was the other way round: CVA couldn't survive in Providence without letting Severence and our other "meatshields" do our fighting for us. Whatever your talents are ingame they are clearly overshadowed by your "performance" here on forums. In a post above you asked me the following question: Originally by: Jade Constantine That's the game. Why not play it? I could ask the same of you. Why don't you play the game and leave it at that? Why do you feel the need to come onto the forums the way you do? It is your right to do so of course. CCP will see to it if your overstep your "Forum rights" - but you'd probably know this a lot better than me. But please don't angle for the respect we give to organisations like U'K, Tri, CI and many others given your own forum behaviour. It's like coming onto the forums asking: "Why don't you show me some respect while I disrespect you all?". I really can't put it any simpler than this. If you cannot (or choose not to) understand my point then so be it. I'll leave it at this. Q: How many Amarr does it take to change a light bulb? A: None, we have Minnies to do the menial chores.
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.15 08:39:00 - [169] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 15/01/2008 08:42:38 Octavinus, with respect, I think you've missed the mark in your judgment here. No one would argue Jade is not verbose on forums - thats obvious. But that does not mean Jade or SF don't bring it in game. Far from it. I have seen SF throw themselves against stronger forces relentlessly of late and for that they have earned much respect among U'K. It's a rare trait to find people willing to fight when the odds are stacked against them, SF are one of the few willing to do so. Lets be honest, you too have one of the best spin masters out there - Hardin. Does Hardin's forum presence mean CVA fight any less? Of course not, its just another element to add to the mix, another way you wage war. These two things are not mutually incompatible. -----------------------------------------
Hardin Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.15 09:11:00 - [170] silence terrorist dog ;) to all those bothering to argue with jade: don't. fact is it was a good try and op by sf and uk as I acknowledged elsewhere before this thread was even started. similarly there can be no arguing with the fact that sf and uk failed in their objective to kill a cva capital, losing around 50 ships and 7 pos in the process. I would suggest that cva and friends now leave this thread alone now and let jade and co continue their celebrations in peace :) ------------------------------

Kai Zion Amarr The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.01.15 10:37:00 - [171] Originally by: Hardin let jade and co continue their celebrations in peace :) That's right, listen to the Slaver Lord and leave those poor Fractionistas alone! Let there be peace in our time! Perhaps to speed things along, we could start negotiations for the temporary handover of Providence to the free captains, so that it may flourish as a beacon of freedom and limitless potential in this oppressive and finite cluster! I know in your heart that you are open to the idea, Hardin old man. Don't hide that inner bear, embrace it. As an uninvolved, impartial third party I volunteer my services in helping oversee. My fee will be the penthouse level of the Inflatable House, and some skittles. Red ones. Congratulating you on taking this first wonderful step forward, Kai Eh? What's that? You feel misrepresented? Well damn...do I still get skittles?
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.15 13:09:00 - [172] Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Originally by: Jade Constantine Some more or less irrelevant argumentation. When you ask how it can be that CVA can respect Tri when they attack and "get defensive" when you do, the answer is simple really. Organisations like TRI, U'K, CI and most others we have fought have brought it ingame and left it there. You tend to bring your socalled psy-ops onto the forums throwing what is plainly spoken a heapload of garbage at your opponents. ... Whatever your talents are ingame they are clearly overshadowed by your "performance" here on forums. Forums are part of the game.
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 13:13:00 - [173] Originally by: Tecam Hund Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Originally by: Jade Constantine Some more or less irrelevant argumentation. When you ask how it can be that CVA can respect Tri when they attack and "get defensive" when you do, the answer is simple really. Organisations like TRI, U'K, CI and most others we have fought have brought it ingame and left it there. You tend to bring your socalled psy-ops onto the forums throwing what is plainly spoken a heapload of garbage at your opponents. ... Whatever your talents are ingame they are clearly overshadowed by your "performance" here on forums. Forums are part of the game. Of course they are. But you still need to win in-game too to capitalize... Else we wouldn't have needed to siege RIT at all!
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.15 13:18:00 - [174] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Tecam Hund Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Originally by: Jade Constantine Some more or less irrelevant argumentation. When you ask how it can be that CVA can respect Tri when they attack and "get defensive" when you do, the answer is simple really. Organisations like TRI, U'K, CI and most others we have fought have brought it ingame and left it there. You tend to bring your socalled psy-ops onto the forums throwing what is plainly spoken a heapload of garbage at your opponents. ... Whatever your talents are ingame they are clearly overshadowed by your "performance" here on forums. Forums are part of the game. Of course they are. But you still need to win in-game too to capitalize... Else we wouldn't have needed to siege RIT at all! I don't argue with that. Just point out that there is no point in getting worked up when someone brings it out onto the forums. Our opponent doesn't seem to realize that playing the game involves using the forums.
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 13:21:00 - [175] It's as much their right to call your BS as much as it your right to post it tbh. That's what PR is all about
Virgil Aquilis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 13:51:00 - [176] Originally by: Tecam Hund Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Tecam Hund Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Originally by: Jade Constantine Some more or less irrelevant argumentation. When you ask how it can be that CVA can respect Tri when they attack and "get defensive" when you do, the answer is simple really. Organisations like TRI, U'K, CI and most others we have fought have brought it ingame and left it there. You tend to bring your socalled psy-ops onto the forums throwing what is plainly spoken a heapload of garbage at your opponents. ... Whatever your talents are ingame they are clearly overshadowed by your "performance" here on forums. Forums are part of the game. Of course they are. But you still need to win in-game too to capitalize... Else we wouldn't have needed to siege RIT at all! I don't argue with that. Just point out that there is no point in getting worked up when someone brings it out onto the forums. Our opponent doesn't seem to realize that playing the game involves using the forums. That's okay, we're here to burn and salt the earth for them :D Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:23:00 - [177] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Of course they are. But you still need to win in-game too to capitalize... Else we wouldn't have needed to siege RIT at all! I don't argue with that. Just saying that there is no point in getting worked up when someone brings it out onto the forums. Our opponent doesn't seem to realize that playing the game involves using the forums.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:26:00 - [178] Originally by: Octavinus Augustus You clearly avoid (intentionally or not?) to relate to the point of my posting. Not in the least Octavinus. I believe I am addressing what you are actually saying here. And more to the point I'm discussing the issues rather than the personalities involved. If I'm upsetting you that I'm not seeing the need to defend my own name against your personal comments thats simply because I don't consider those comments meaningful or in the least part pertinent to the discussion at hand. Now I notice you are trying your hand at a certain degree of "pseudo psyops spin" yourself by attempting to claim that SF is an organization that doesn't "bring it ingame". Completely ridiculous of course and utterly belied by the campaign results so far that show an estimated 28billion damage to our specific Terminus-Est targets (Sev, CSA, Borg) and an estimated 30billion damage to general Amarrian block providence targets over the timescale of the campaign. I'm seeing ship and capsule losses in the thousands for your allied friends in Providence. I'm not seeing an organization that in any shape or form has failed to "bring it". So in complete lack of material fact to support your allegation that we are a forum-only force I'm forced to conclude that you are deploying some kind of psychological/warfare goading/baiting or whatnot yourself in that post Octavinus which conclusion makes your actual claim deeply hypocritical. Quote: When you ask how it can be that CVA can respect Tri when they attack and "get defensive" when you do, the answer is simple really. Organisations like TRI, U'K, CI and most others we have fought have brought it ingame and left it there. You tend to bring your socalled psy-ops onto the forums throwing what is plainly spoken a heapload of garbage at your opponents. Here I think we're getting the meat of your problem Octavinus. Its not that SF is an organization that fails to bring fights "in-game". Its that we are an organization that fight you with direct action in space and against your allies AND we are fighting a war for the hearts and minds of the region with public relations and counter to your traditional CVA "spin". I do see ALOT of frustration from your side that there is a voice opposed to the status quo and you are now challenged on your traditional home turf in Providence. Quote: A clear example is your current "campaign" against Severence, who according to you can't stand on their own feet. It is only a matter of a few weeks since it was the other way round: CVA couldn't survive in Providence without letting Severence and our other "meatshields" do our fighting for us. Both are true. Sev3rance cannot survive in KBP without CVA support. CVA cannot survive in providence without the allied support of Sev/CSA/Slyph/Paxton/IAC/Goons etc when the chips are down. There is no contradiction in the position you highlight. If its a clear example of anything its in your over-sensitivity to any mention of this reality in the clear light of day. Quote: Whatever your talents are ingame they are clearly overshadowed by your "performance" here on forums. Then I imagine you'll be happy to agree to a spaceship duel with me Octavinus and you can show me just how overrated my talents in space actually are I imagine. Might even be fun? "I might not have meant anything by it"
Centra Spike Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:54:00 - [179] Stealth bombers at dawn? >Truth conquers all chains.
Blitzkrieg Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.01.15 20:09:00 - [180] Ma chere Jade, I did enjoy reading you, I must say, it is this kind of "out of the box" strategies and concepts that keep us on the sharp edge. Although, great in design and execution, it seemed to have yield a mediocre result on the tactical field. Yet, what is most important for any player is the solid presence of a fun element in this sometimes too slow paced pvp game. It Seems like the UK&SF pilots had tons of it. Thank you for your combat reports, a welcome change from the daily substantial void of these forums. Sincerement.

Khemical Gallente Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.01.15 20:48:00 - [181] THIS is a battle report. I for one welcome our wall of text overlords.
xenobite 666 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.15 21:33:00 - [182] My eyes my eyes .... my eyes I canot see mommy. No woryes son its a Jade constantine post. Jade say hy to antandros for me (from an old friend). =====Only Death Is Eternal===== Trade feedback Linkage
BlueKind Gallente IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.15 21:40:00 - [183] Shame Jade all that wall of text....but still got nothing to show for it. We know how are we doing and I may add very well indeed. we don't need sympathy vote from the community by posting wall of text in the forums, not our style. I think you look for attention but sorry we don't like give you one. Severance as carebear alliace you have war dec'ed us from past 3 months and still on. Sorry to dissappoint you....you thought we gonna be a push over alliance to add another victory trophy for you alliance. In you own words u said u can't beat us in conventional manner ...these word are coming from a 3 year old solid pvp alliance. When you talk about CVA ...that they out numbered you and uk zillion to 1. but you will never find a single post from severance in forums us talking about SF,UK and Eternal Raputer out numbered us in pvp experience and numbers for 2 months 20 days(not exact that number of days). I think we have came under attack by UK n SK cos we are CVA good friends and u can;t take CVA head on. So when we need help ( iam sure every one in eve need help at some point) CVA come and help us out. So what are you really complaining about that Severance got save by CVA when they come to help us. In the end i say Jade right now so deep in this mess you have left nothing but self padding in the back and old graves of minor success to brag about ..oh yeah and another wall of text. Looks like ball is again in your court. ---- Bluekind
Dante Barsavi Red Branch Inc	Posted - 2008.01.15 21:52:00 - [184] Originally by: BlueKind I think you look for attention but sorry we don't like give you one. When you talk about CVA ...that they out numbered you and uk zillion to 1. but you will never find a single post from severance in forums us talking about SF,UK and Eternal Raputer out numbered us in pvp experience and numbers for 2 months 20 days(not exact that number of days). Until now
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.15 23:26:00 - [185] Originally by: Tecam Hund Our opponent doesn't seem to realize that playing the game involves using the forums. If you seriously believe that, then the Judas Goat is having way more fun that Jade gives credit for...
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 00:42:00 - [186] Originally by: BlueKind We know how are we doing and I may add very well indeed. we don't need sympathy vote from the community by posting wall of text in the forums, not our style. I think you look for attention but sorry we don't like give you one. And yet Sev3rance have been posting an awful lot on this matter BlueKind. You have actually been trying very hard to claim that you were not in imminent danger of alliance failure prior to CVA intervention during the Tower Siege of KBP and its that claim that lacks credibility in the eyes of your enemies and also neutral commentators on this thread. Quote: Severance as carebear alliace you have war dec'ed us from past 3 months and still on. Sorry to dissappoint you....you thought we gonna be a push over alliance to add another victory trophy for you alliance. Your words not ours. We said no such thing about your nature and showed no such disrespect with our declaration of war. SF declares war on Sev3rance I invite you to go and re-read our war-declaration and then you can perhaps post an apology for your misrepresentation of the words used. We certainly didn't describe you as "carebear pushovers" and we have treated you throughout this campaign as serious opponents to be dealt with by serious tactics and disciplined focus. Quote: In you own words u said u can't beat us in conventional manner ...these word are coming from a 3 year old solid pvp alliance. In my own words I said the combined forces of SF/UK and our allies could not defeat the combined forces of CVA/CSA/Sev/Slyph/Paxton (and whatever out of region allies they would muster to a serious capital slug fest.) But then again. Nor could TRI, nor could CI, nor could Burn Eden, nor indeed could BoB. So you'll understand if I find us ranked in quite illustrious company in that particular lack of accomplishment. The Providence Amarrian levy is an impressive force. Sev3rance alone is no longer. Thats what the campaign has accomplished more than anything Bluekind. We have withered away your ability to stand alone without CVA support and you no longer have the confidence to fight without CVA commanders in your gang. Quote: ... you will never find a single post from severance in forums us talking about SF,UK and Eternal Raputer out numbered us in pvp experience and numbers for 2 months 20 days(not exact that number of days). Except this one? Quote: So what are you really complaining about that Severance got save by CVA when they come to help us. I'm not "complaining" in the slightest. Merely saying this was the case and thank you for confirming it. And since you agree precisely with what I wrote in the OP perhaps you can see how silly it is for your alliance mates to continue debating the point? "I might not have meant anything by it"
Cyriel Longinus XERCORE	Posted - 2008.01.16 02:03:00 - [187] Thanks for the share Jade. That was surely a innovative use of new technology in EvE. Though you did not get the deisred results ... I think your test was a success and a eye opener that "special operations" are more than catchy tag words in a Bio. I honestly did not know the "Sev3rance" alliance existed untill Jade posted this.
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.16 04:24:00 - [188] Edited by: Keorythe on 16/01/2008 04:26:26 Originally by: Jade Constantine And yet Sev3rance have been posting an awful lot on this matter BlueKind. You have actually been trying very hard to claim that you were not in imminent danger of alliance failure prior to CVA intervention during the Tower Siege of KBP and its that claim that lacks credibility in the eyes of your enemies and also neutral commentators on this thread. We post in response to your claims. Which you are trying very very hard to push on the community that S3verance was about to fail. The fact that other than some spread out ganks which you own timestamps show you were unable to do much at all. The truth of the matter was that SF were failing to inflict serious harm against S3verance and the result was a stalemate. During your entire time in KBP you never once took down a station (even that nice little SMALL waystation tower) for the same reason we couldn't take down yours thanks to TRI. You've already admitted that CVA was tied up on their side of the map and that poor little S3verance was all alone. Or, or are you going to change your stance again? And stop with the "neutral" commentators stuff. There were no neutrals in the area that weren't shooting at us posting on this forum. Your claim at success or even efficiency is lacking any real credibility to us...or the neutral commentators on this thread (lulz!). But then I forgot this is COAD, you don't worry about things like that. Quote: In my own words I said the combined forces of SF/UK and our allies could not defeat the combined forces of CVA/CSA/Sev/Slyph/Paxton (and whatever out of region allies they would muster to a serious capital slug fest.) But then again. Nor could TRI, nor could CI, nor could Burn Eden, nor indeed could Not a single name on that list ever tried to "defeat" CVA. Most come (and they cycle through all of the time) for pew pew. Please dont sully some of those great PvP names by trying to associate their fun with your failures. Quote: The Providence Amarrian levy is an impressive force. Sev3rance alone is no longer. Thats what the campaign has accomplished more than anything Bluekind. We have withered away your ability to stand alone without CVA support and you no longer have the confidence to fight without CVA commanders in your gang. Keep believing that, if you wish. Our dreadnoughts still got some tower kills so were all happy. Our regular force is still getting some nice kills, we get bored of camping the empire Dihra station, and we love the nano-fleets roaming around in our low times. They're cute really. Quote: I'm not "complaining" in the slightest. Merely saying this was the case and thank you for confirming it. And since you agree precisely with what I wrote in the OP perhaps you can see how silly it is for your alliance mates to continue debating the point? Actually you ARE complaining on the very thing which YOU have stated repeatedly, not us. Its odd having to deal with statements made by you then argued by you. Its a good tactic though for throwing people off metaphorically. Whatever happened to Eternal Rapture anyway? I wonder if Hardin offers Forum Warrior 101 classes. This is interesting.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 06:03:00 - [189] Ah the ever-returning mr Keorythe, IÆm glad you couldnÆt keep your resolution to stay away old chap. So then, yes as you acknowledge above, I am offering the community my earnest opinion that Sev3rance was indeed about to fail. I saw the evidence with my own eyes of your reduced activity, corporations leaving, and general attitude of defeatism. We have captures of intel from your internal forums of course citing frustration at the small size of your musters and talking about needing to ôstand togetherö or ôfall togetherö etc etc really. These are all things that an alliance under intolerable pressure tends to exhibit in extremis and you were no exception to that rule. As for the towers, well you were fortunate that the TRI presence in Providence was sporadic over Christmas and each reinforcement battle saw you reinforced by CVA when TRI was not around. Ultimately had CVA not been in a position to bring forces to your aid you would have lost every Tower in KBP and been ousted in space. This is not something that any credible commentator could really debate û and indeed your own alliance mate Bluekind has been kind enough to admit explicitly above. So no argument there. The point is you cannot stand without CVA lifesupport. I think we agree on this. As for claims of success and efficiency and credibility with you mr Keorythe, I think you misunderstand the way this works. Why would we care what Sev3rance thinks? You are the enemy, itÆs your job to minimise your losses and lionise your successes and claim you are still fighting fit. You have to put on a good show for the CVA fleet commanders watching your performance or theyÆll replace you. We both know that. Shame really that at this very moment IÆm looking at a KBP system that has 3x as many empty Towers as active Sev3rance "fighters" available to defend ôyour spaceö and itÆs been this way for the last six hours. A dry statistic perhaps mr Keorythe but its hardly a convincing one for your alliance health. As for attempting to claim that previous enemies of the CVA have not attempted to ôdefeat themö merely indulge in ôpew-pewö thatÆs beneath you, thatÆs beneath me, and it offends the intelligence of the average CAOD commentator besides. ôRoad Tripsö are what happen when an offensive fails. You cannot make an artificial division between road-tripping and ôserious warö that has any credibility in the eyes of those who have experienced these things in space. If a force has no will or ability to enforce serious impact on an enemy itÆs a ôroad tripö. ItÆs the ôget out of jail freeö card for alliances that cannot defeat foes in current circumstances. No more no less. As for the last, you are confusing yourself again. I will repeat. Sev3rance today exists only because of CVA support and protection. You are unable to stand alone. While TRI was engaging CVA you were on the verge of complete breakdown and nobody present in KBP system during those weeks can have any doubt of that. The fallout of this state is Sev3rance today that still lacks the confidence even to fight in space without direct CVA gang leadership and oversight. Over three months of warfare we have seen you diminished from an independent and confident ôholderö nation on the providence borders to a small clan of holdouts who cannot fight without CVA fleet support. Ultimately mr Keorythe this is your crisis to resolve one way or another. Who knows what will happen from this point forwards, perhaps as Snakester has commented you will end up joining the CVA as a whole since you are now inseparable as a combat entity and cannot exist on your own. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 06:50:00 - [190] Originally by: Jade Constantine Over three months of warfare we have seen you diminished from an independent and confident ôholderö nation on the providence borders to a small clan of holdouts who cannot fight without CVA fleet support. Actually, if one goes back to read the propeganda, CVA has never been independent from its "holder" nations, only able to defend its space with their help...and the "holder" nations have never been independent from the CVA, only able to defend their space with our help. Or was that the convenient propeganda at the time and this is the convenient progeganda now?

Niding Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 07:49:00 - [191] Jade is trying to protray the use of and the ability to form solid friendships/alliances as a bad thing. SF and UK work together, which is a good thing for them as a fighting force. They combine their expiriences and firepower to enhance past what they as lone entities can accomplish. Good for them. Likewise, CVA and Holders has forged longlasting trust and friendship to develop AND defend Providence TOGETHER. Why this is considered a weakness by Jade is beyond me. I consider it a strenght.
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.16 08:08:00 - [192] Edited by: Keorythe on 16/01/2008 08:09:26 Originally by: Jade Constantine So then, yes as you acknowledge above, I am offering the community my earnest opinion that Sev3rance was indeed about to fail. Thank you for finally admitting this is your opinion and not a fact. Quote: We have captures of intel from your internal forums of course citing frustration at the small size of your musters and talking about needing to ôstand togetherö or ôfall togetherö etc etc really. These are all things that an alliance under intolerable pressure tends to exhibit in extremis and you were no exception to that rule. Yes, I know the post you're talking about. If you have it handy in front of you you can see it is specifically talking about our low times thanks to shortages of that particular time zone. That fact that we need to recruit for that more is even repeated in the post. Thanks for confirming the metagaming spy, btw. Quote: As for the towers, well you were fortunate that the TRI presence in Providence was sporadic over Christmas and each reinforcement battle saw you reinforced by CVA when TRI was not around. Ultimately had CVA not been in a position to bring forces to your aid you would have lost every Tower in KBP and been ousted in space. This is not something that any credible commentator could really debate û and indeed your own alliance mate Bluekind has been kind enough to admit explicitly above. So no argument there. The point is you cannot stand without CVA lifesupport. I think we agree on this. Yet another opinion I see with another "credible commentator" comment. Whether CVA showed or not had you brought your capitals to the fight (and you never even onlined them when they came out of reinforced) you would have lost some if not all of them which is not something that any credible commentator could really debate. Your track record of POS warfare and support failure over the time is proof of that. I believe the sarcasm expressed by Bluekind and your subsequent self-made arguement from it have already been addressed. Quote: As for claims of success and efficiency and credibility with you mr Keorythe, I think you misunderstand the way this works. Why would we care what Sev3rance thinks? You are the enemy, itÆs your job to minimise your losses and lionise your successes and claim you are still fighting fit. And vice versa. I believe everyone in COAD by now has noticed how much effort you yourself have put into this little debate and how badly you hate losing arguements. Quote: You have to put on a good show for the CVA fleet commanders watching your performance or theyÆll replace you. We both know that. Shame really that at this very moment IÆm looking at a KBP system that has 3x as many empty Towers as active Sev3rance "fighters" available to defend ôyour spaceö and itÆs been this way for the last six hours. A dry statistic perhaps mr Keorythe but its hardly a convincing one for your alliance health. Yes, Commisar Garreck has replaced me with a Vespa II named bootilicious and a pack of spirits. As for the downtime, its 1am here and like 6am for the euro's on a work week. Hey, isn't that your most visible hours? Quote: As for attempting to claim that previous enemies of the CVA have not attempted to ôdefeat themö merely indulge in ôpew-pewö thatÆs beneath you, thatÆs beneath me, and it offends the intelligence of the average CAOD commentator besides. ôRoad Tripsö are what happen when an offensive fails. You cannot make an artificial division between road-tripping and ôserious warö that has any credibility in the eyes of those who have experienced these things in space. If a force has no will or ability to enforce serious impact on an enemy itÆs a ôroad tripö. ItÆs the ôget out of jail freeö card for alliances that cannot defeat foes in current circumstances. No more no less. -TRI from the beginning said they came for pew pew and are always looking for good fights. Nothing more, nothing less. -Burn Eden has a strong precedent of going from area to area looking for pew pew. Nothing more, nothing less. -Cruel Intentions are a mercenary group for hire that fights till the contract is up. Nothing more, nothing less. -BoB has publicly stated that they had no interest in Providence other than a waystation. Nothing more, nothing less. Everyone knows that Ursha'Khan attempted to "defeat" CVA forces for the sake of their territory and they put up and excellent fight. But for you to say that the above mentioned corps/alliances despite precedent and pre-war statements failed in "serious war" simply because you can't fathom the idea of mobile pew pew for fun (except they state that before the fights not after a loss) is beneath you, and it offends the intelligence of the average CAOD commentator besides. Heck that just plainly insults those aforementioned corps/alliances.
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.16 08:12:00 - [193] Quote: As for the last, you are confusing yourself again. I will repeat. Sev3rance today exists only because of CVA support and protection. You are unable to stand alone. While TRI was engaging CVA you were on the verge of complete breakdown and nobody present in KBP system during those weeks can have any doubt of that. Yes yes, you've already stated that this is your opinion as confirmed above (lets not forget confirmation by "neutral" commentators too). You can repeat it all you like but its still not going to hold any credibility. Quote: Over three months of warfare we have seen you diminished from an independent and confident ôholderö nation on the providence borders to a small clan of holdouts who cannot fight without CVA fleet support. Yes yes, thanks for that opinion. Before I end this may I point out that its been close to if not more than a year that we've not only seen you Star Fraction diminish but you've shown that you can't fight without UK, Cognet, insert various mercenaries here, Eternal Rapture, Sani Sabik, and who knows how many other corporations listed on the KB's supporting you. The amount of isk lost, headaches caused, and bridges burned by all of them to your machinations, schemes, and ever changing ideology throughout that time is phenomenal. Your accomplishment to date? A great video! Enjoy! Bomber Disco!! Oh my, look at what you made me do! A WALL OF TEXT! Darn, I feel so dirty now. Quick someone give me a sponge bath!
Conlin Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.16 08:19:00 - [194] Originally by: Hardin silence terrorist dog ;) to all those bothering to argue with jade: don't. fact is it was a good try and op by sf and uk as I acknowledged elsewhere before this thread was even started. similarly there can be no arguing with the fact that sf and uk failed in their objective to kill a cva capital, losing around 50 ships and 7 pos in the process. I would suggest that cva and friends now leave this thread alone now and let jade and co continue their celebrations in peace :) Not very often I agree with Hardin on anything especially his spin , but cmon now listen to the guy , move on . This topic started off well till sev etc started flaming
Maggot Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.16 08:40:00 - [195] Originally by: Keorythe Everyone knows that Ursha'Khan attempted to "defeat" CVA forces for the sake of their territory and they put up and excellent fight. Actually that statement is not true. U'K never once in its history made an attack to take CVA territory.
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.16 09:19:00 - [196] Edited by: Keorythe on 16/01/2008 09:20:25 Originally by: Maggot Originally by: Keorythe Everyone knows that Ursha'Khan attempted to "defeat" CVA forces for the sake of their territory and they put up and excellent fight. Actually that statement is not true. U'K never once in its history made an attack to take CVA territory. I meant during the fight for the former UK owned territories not CVA's and the Minmatar/Amarr RP war in general. My apologies for the misconception.
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.16 09:32:00 - [197] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 16/01/2008 09:34:05 Another mis-conception of yours Keorythe is the statement that no sev POS were destroyed in KBP. I clearly recall having much fun destroying a large amarr one with nothing but small BS fleet and a handful of large bubbles. -----------------------------------------
Filthy Pierre Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 10:27:00 - [198] The historical dialectic shows that conflicts such as the one between CVA/Allies and Star Fraction are inevitable and will last a long time. That is a good thing - fighting for a dream of freedom for everyone, not just select small groups - sustains people far better and for far longer than fighting for mere ISK and power ever did. We're here, we are patient, we are armed with that most deadly of all weapons - a good cause. We'll be seeing you. FP
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.01.16 10:32:00 - [199] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Keorythe No Ms. Constantine, the point of the OP is to spin a massive loss into a sort of win. No Mr Keorythe. I think you still aren't quite reading the OP correctly. Its all a bit silly for you to accuse me of spin while admitting that your "approximate" figures have nothing to do with the numbers listed on the kill boards isn't it :) Star Fraction has absolutely nothing to hide with our combat results hence the entirely public killboard and open stats. Quote: ...Fitting a ship you plan to lose while defending a major assest doesn't show courage, it shows defeatism. The future will tell how well your logistic team really did as a single engagement shows really nothing. Fitting a ship you plan to inflict more damage on the enemy with than you take yourself shows guerrilla warfare smarts and dynamic thinking. Our Bomber fleet caused a lot more fiscal damage than it took to assemble and gave (I imagine) our pilots a hellova lot more than sitting like sheep in a passive blob on the gates or being blown to pieces mid pos looting :) Read the OP again Keorythe. We admit, there was absolutely no way we could win a conventional fleet battle against 3-1 odds and the assembled Providence hordes. If we behaved like our enemies we'd have spent the battle docked or behind POS shields. Instead we came out and took the battle to you guys and gave a serious try to causing a historic dreadnaught gank. Sure we lost the towers ultimately - but you know what, we had a hell of a good time with that tactic and you can bet you'll be seeing more of it in the future! Jade, you are an excellent tactical leader, but you are failing to grasp the strategic picture here. No amount of "guerilla warfare" has ever, or will ever, take or hold territory. At BEST, it can temporarily deny territory to somebody. In extreme cases, it can break an entities will to fight, see PL and Goons breaking of RISE. Constant guerrilla warfare prepared the way for a conventional fleet to take sovernty. Without the constant harrasment, and hit and runs, the conventional fleet would have taken much heavier losses than it did. It still took dreads and Battleships to remove the hostile towers though. Killing dreads is propaganda, killing Poses is winning a war.
Snakester Caldari Blood and Money Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.16 10:44:00 - [200] Originally by: Jade Constantine perhaps as Snakester has commented you will end up joining the CVA as a whole since you are now inseparable as a combat entity and cannot exist on your own. I think i said, if u actually did manage to make -7- fold, all u would end up doing was make 90% of us join CVA, which in turn would make your life harder.Oh heres, the log, dunno if i can post it here tho, if it gets deleted, oh well. [ 2008.01.13 17:17:13 ] Jade Constantine > we're not the average alliance Snake and we don't even smack about the things that most people do :) [ 2008.01.13 17:19:26 ] Snakester > i just think, your taking this whole cva/pets thing way to seriously, can't be good for your health. , worse comes to worse, u do actually make -7- disband, 95% of it's pilots/corps will join cva. [ 2008.01.13 17:20:09 ] Snakester > we have alot of history with cva, were like brothers, our bond atm is stronger then ever [ 2008.01.13 17:20:32 ] Jade Constantine > yeah but will be more honest that way at least Originally by: Karn Mithralia Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 16/01/2008 09:34:05 Another mis-conception of yours Keorythe is the statement that no sev POS were destroyed in KBP. I clearly recall having much fun destroying a large amarr one with nothing but small BS fleet and a handful of large bubbles. Yep, excellent work on destroying an offline tower from a member corp which had left. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Damion Zyne Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 11:23:00 - [201] Originally by: Audri Fisher Jade, you are an excellent tactical leader, but you are failing to grasp the strategic picture here. No amount of "guerilla warfare" has ever, or will ever, take or hold territory. You are failing to grasp that SF is not about holding / taking territory though.
Conlin Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.16 12:26:00 - [202] Edited by: Conlin on 16/01/2008 12:30:30 Edited by: Conlin on 16/01/2008 12:27:55 Originally by: Snakester Edited by: Snakester on 16/01/2008 12:16:36 Originally by: Jade Constantine perhaps as Snakester has commented you will end up joining the CVA as a whole since you are now inseparable as a combat entity and cannot exist on your own. I think i said, if u actually did manage to make -7- fold, all u would end up doing was make 90% of us join CVA, which in turn would make your life harder.Oh heres, the log, dunno if i can post it here tho, if it gets deleted, oh well. [ 2008.01.13 17:17:13 ] Jade Constantine > we're not the average alliance Snake and we don't even smack about the things that most people do :) [ 2008.01.13 17:19:26 ] Snakester > i just think, your taking this whole cva/pets thing way to seriously, can't be good for your health. , worse comes to worse, u do actually make -7- disband, 95% of it's pilots/corps will join cva. [ 2008.01.13 17:20:09 ] Snakester > we have alot of history with cva, were like brothers, our bond atm is stronger then ever [ 2008.01.13 17:20:32 ] Jade Constantine > yeah but will be more honest that way at least Originally by: Karn Mithralia Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 16/01/2008 09:34:05 Another mis-conception of yours Keorythe is the statement that no sev POS were destroyed in KBP. I clearly recall having much fun destroying a large amarr one with nothing but small BS fleet and a handful of large bubbles. Yep, excellent work on destroying an offline tower from a member corp which had left. :edit- Also, if i remember rightly, said POS wasn't even in kbp, UK/SF have never killed a -7- pos in kbp, theyve put some in reinforced yes (1x small twice, 1x med twice and 2x lrg pos). Snakester that is about as relevant as grecian 2000 is to your head . To be honest snake , posting ingame chatlogs (which can be doctored) makes you look extremely childish , or deperate
Virgil Aquilis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.16 12:44:00 - [203] Originally by: Damion Zyne Originally by: Audri Fisher Jade, you are an excellent tactical leader, but you are failing to grasp the strategic picture here. No amount of "guerilla warfare" has ever, or will ever, take or hold territory. You are failing to grasp that SF is not about holding / taking territory though. It's about vomiting words! Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Morden Nok Cohortes Vigilum Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 12:46:00 - [204] Edited by: Morden Nok on 16/01/2008 12:48:00 Edited out typos Originally by: Conlin To be honest snake , posting ingame chatlogs (which can be doctored) makes you look extremely childish , or deperate Well, we all know that Jade likes to doctor chatlogs, for example removing timestamps, putting the quotes out of context and then removing any comments about him doing it and lying about it, but that doesn't mean our side does it. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0801/SF_Killboard.jpg Originally by: Zennith Id be interested to see the numbers actually, I think Sev has more pilots but that might just be perception being affected by the "counts every foeman twice" syndrome And it is: UK have 282 members and SF has 114 members for total of 396 members. Sev3rance has 250 members and Cold Steel Alliance has 100 members for total of 350 members. For all UK/SF talk of "guerilla warfare" they have actually outnumbered their main opponents in KBP all the time. Eve-maps offer nice way of checking how fast alliances are gaining and losing people and space: http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=UNITY http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=-7- Looking at these it's pretty easy to see that member losses in UK and -7- are approximately 10%, which is inconsequential. (And no, counting all holders for -7-'s side would only have been true if UK/SF/Stim/ENH/Eternal rapture had split up their forces and attacked all Holders at the same time.)
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.01.16 12:58:00 - [205] What a fuss - let them celebrate their achieving nothing of consequence if it helps the morale of the troops. -7- is still there, some good fights were had. Just leave it at that. PIE is dead for some months if you believe the propaganda, too, after all. So what? In the end noone cares about the forum war if the results do not match with in-game reality. Now recruiting!
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 13:32:00 - [206] Originally by: Morden Nok Well, we all know that Jade likes to doctor chatlogs, for example removing timestamps, putting the quotes out of context and then removing any comments about him doing it and lying about it, but that doesn't mean our side does it. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0801/SF_Killboard.jpg I wondered how long you'd be able to hold yourself from posting this doctored propaganda piece CVA. I'm glad its finally come out in the open though and we can deal with the issue in the clear light of day. Now, what this little gem from CVA is about is a a night when Solusar managed to kill a Star Fraction Stabber (yes stabber) class ship in Dital System and proceeded to fill local for the next hour with general commentary about how Star Fraction failed in his eyes, how Triumvirate failed, how Ushra'khan had been bought and paid for by Star Fraction, how he had material proof that we were funding the UK Tower challenge, that he had disgruntled UK agents feeding him intel about the financial situation inside UK and other such amusing claims (given that Hardin usually makes a large point about how the CVA do not "stoop" to infiltration and spying). Anyway, the loss gets posted and one of our allies makes a quip on the database comments section (200 letters max) "At least he didn't smack..." I followed up by posting a couple of examples of the things Solusar had been saying. Then went to bed. The next morning the Kill Database comments section is full of anonymous comments from angry-sounding people (which we delete as a matter of course) then Solusar and Garreck start posting there demanding that the Solusar quote's be removed, and spamming the killboard software each minute until they get their way. Eventually I post a notification that anonymous smack will be removed (and delete Solusar and Garreck as well and Cosmo and I explain that its a Killboard comments function not a forum for debate and if they want to discuss the issue they are hot and bothered about then they are welcome to come to our SF forum, or SHC, and discuss it.) They of course demure and screen shot the Killboard at various points (not including any of the aforesaid anonymous smack of course since they waited until I deleted that) and produce the image that Morden Nok links too. Silly, quite the storm in a teacup. Why oh why had Solusar and the CVA gotten so agitated by this I wonder. So I take another look at the chatlog from local and realize that its got to be because Solusar is breaking the Hardin directive not to "smack TRI too hard" on the issue for their pullout from Providence. Hardin is a wise man in some ways, and knows perfectly well that putting up with TRI coming back and trying harder next time is about the worst thing he can imagine in future circumstanced for the CVA and having one of this pilots spinning his mouth in local and expressing the opinion that what failures TRI were to have "failed" to make any ground against CVA (despite as we all know, TRI having been rebuffed ultimately by IAC and Goons as much as CVA themselves) was simply poorly judged diplomacy at best and something to be expunged from history if it possibly could. So we get another day of CVA people spamming the killboard comments. We get demands in local that Solusar's quote should be removed. Threats of forum posts. Demands we remove the comment function. And something that is very like a mini threadnaught from CVA + anonymous posters continually posting one liner personal attacks on the comment function. Its quite surreal really. In the end we were going to turn off anonymous posting there or look for a ban by IP function but in the event Operation Fedaykin happened and the Stabber kill in question scrolled off the first page into the realms of history submerged by lots of bomber losses and enemy ships in the mix. So now I guess the question is. Why is CVA keen to begin this debate again on page seven of an unrelated thread after Hardin publicly posted a cease and desist order for his membership? The chatlog in question is VERY embarrassing for the CVA. I'm not going to post it complete because it has some things which will break forum rules in minor ways and its too long for purely entertainment purposes. But If anybody does want to see this log I'll see about it getting moved to the public section of the SF forum and I'll be happy to provide links by evemail if asked. But it is very telling as to how rattled the CVA as a whole is by the combined forces of SF and UK. We might not have taken territory or removed Sev3rance towers. But no other enemy the CVA has ever fought has been able to generate this level of panicky sub-psyops and attempted manipulation from Hardin's boys. Its easy to see that something is very rotten in the state of Denmark. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Conlin Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.16 13:33:00 - [207] Originally by: Morden Nok Edited by: Morden Nok on 16/01/2008 12:48:00 Edited out typos Originally by: Conlin To be honest snake , posting ingame chatlogs (which can be doctored) makes you look extremely childish , or deperate Well, we all know that Jade likes to doctor chatlogs, for example removing timestamps, putting the quotes out of context and then removing any comments about him doing it and lying about it, but that doesn't mean our side does it. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0801/SF_Killboard.jpg Originally by: Zennith Id be interested to see the numbers actually, I think Sev has more pilots but that might just be perception being affected by the "counts every foeman twice" syndrome And it is: UK have 282 members and SF has 114 members for total of 396 members. Sev3rance has 250 members and Cold Steel Alliance has 100 members for total of 350 members. For all UK/SF talk of "guerilla warfare" they have actually outnumbered their main opponents in KBP all the time. Eve-maps offer nice way of checking how fast alliances are gaining and losing people and space: http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=UNITY http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=-7- Looking at these it's pretty easy to see that member losses in UK and -7- are approximately 10%, which is inconsequential. (And no, counting all holders for -7-'s side would only have been true if UK/SF/Stim/ENH/Eternal rapture had split up their forces and attacked all Holders at the same time.) Why do I get the feeling this just about attacking jade rather than just letting ppl read the report ?. Their was a pretty good amount of positive feedback on the first few pages , then suddenly cva & sev jump on the slate jade bandwagon . Even Hardin himself suggests you shut up and move on , but you cant can you ?. Just one more dig after another , I wouldnt mind so much if they were warranted or justified digs , but all I see is childish nit picking and going round in circles . And as for the chat logs , you can twist it anyway you wish , end of the day it was childish , no 2 ways about it . Oh and you failed to add ex Borg members ( NORD in the beginning of the engagement) There was also an attendance by several other corps fighting for sev as I remember (just wish I could remember there damn names . Even so incorporating those you failed to add taking into account alts , non active pilots etc the difference between sev , csa etc isnt worth mentioning . Unless of course your trying to justify the presence of CVA , PIE , Delictum , Sylph , AM and Paxton ? . In that case why whine at numbers between UK & SF outnumbering SEV etc when ultimately with all the combined forced inc above you outnumbered us by .........? I,II let you work it all out , you like figures .
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.16 13:34:00 - [208] Thanks for pulling the numbers for me Mord, didnt realise evemaps did that, very useful to know. UK : Severance is a 1.12 : 1 ratio, which isnt what i expected, but is pretty evenly matched. Throw in everyone else and those numbers change just a little :) We come for our people
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.16 13:50:00 - [209] Edited by: Gaius Kador on 16/01/2008 13:51:05 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Morden Nok http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0801/SF_Killboard.jpg snip Why oh why had Solusar and the CVA gotten so agitated by this I wonder. It might have to do with the fact that you doctored the local chatlog, putting quotes together out of context, and posted it on a public killboard? Edit: Sorry about that, I'll let you all get on with your regular schedule of getting the thread back on topic :) ----------------------------------------------
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 13:52:00 - [210] Originally by: Audri Fisher Jade, you are an excellent tactical leader, but you are failing to grasp the strategic picture here. No amount of "guerilla warfare" has ever, or will ever, take or hold territory. At BEST, it can temporarily deny territory to somebody. In extreme cases, it can break an entities will to fight, see PL and Goons breaking of RISE. Constant guerrilla warfare prepared the way for a conventional fleet to take sovernty. Without the constant harrasment, and hit and runs, the conventional fleet would have taken much heavier losses than it did. It still took dreads and Battleships to remove the hostile towers though. Killing dreads is propaganda, killing Poses is winning a war. You know, I do agree with pretty much all of your post aside from the fact that this doesn't come as a surprise to us. We know the limitations of guerrilla warfare. You are absolutely correct in your closing assessment too that killing dreads is propaganda while killing poses is winning the war. But here we are, SF and UK at the moment are considerably outgunned by CVA loyalists and their "holders" in Providence. As I have indictated in the op we cannot win a POS reinforcement battle in the current balance of forces. We can however maintain long term pressure on selected "holder" allies of the CVA and score suppression and kills and remove any semblance of ease from their existence on the Providence borders. We are fighting an archetypal insurgent vs government forces campaign. Our fighters are more skilled certainly, we can win all smaller engagements and as long as we remain aware of CVA levies response time we can score kills and withdraw before the numbers turn too badly against us. But yes, ultimately you are correct. In order to win the war in Providence we need to grow our organizations through internal capability and attracting external allies to turn the tables against the CVA hordes and fight some formal pitched battles against their fixed assets. The campaign will not end until this happens. Fortunately though we do have the advantage that our organizations are much happier in a state of permanent guerrilla war than many of our targets. And while we are not sieging the walls of CVA's dominions we are maintaining a stranglehold on the access and supply routes and conducting a campaign of psychological starvation as CVA-bloc reinforcement entities are stifled and all Sev3rance shipping is placed a risk outside of significant major CVA fleet actions. But yes Audri, ultimately you and I don't disagree about very much at all. And if you happen to know where I can recruit a capital fleet of 50 dreadnaughts from don't hestitate to drop me a line ... regardless of past old history between our corporations I'm never closed to innovative new directions "I might not have meant anything by it"

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 13:56:00 - [211] Originally by: Gaius Kador It might have to do with the fact that you doctored the local chatlog, putting quotes together out of context, and posted it on a public killboard? That is a false accusation. The chatlog was in no way "doctored". It was a 100% accurate selection of quotes made by Solusar in that local chat. Given that the comment box is 200 characters long and the complete chatlog is in excess of 10,000. I think you'll admit that it is impossible to put a "complete" chatlog into that space and given that admission it is impossible to accuse "edits" when the precise sentences were preserved. This is an example of CVA and friends making a false charge and being caught out on the issue Gaius Kador. I'm glad we've had the opportunity to put you right on this. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Morden Nok Cohortes Vigilum Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 14:51:00 - [212] Edited by: Morden Nok on 16/01/2008 14:52:44 Originally by: Gaius Kador It might have to do with the fact that you doctored the local chatlog, putting quotes together out of context, and posted it on a public killboard? Originally by: Jade Constantine That is Originally by: Jade Constantine 100% accurate This is also completely undoctored and 100% accurate selection of quotes from your previous post. At least according to your criteria. Those quotes are also taken completely out of context, like you did with Solusars. The reason why you left out the timestamps is the same reason you deleted Solusar's posts filling in the blanks: You just want to have arena where you can do whatever you want and no-one can refute you. You also lied about Solusar's comments on your KB being "anonymous" and there is no way you can't squirm out of that one. Speaking of lying, SF do seem to love doing it. For example Jasmine Constantines war diary post in IGS Jasmine lied the CVA tower was put up before your attack when it was in fact done after it. The original thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=631684 Hardin's reply which point out the lies: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=631841 Now the other readers just have to think, which one is more likely to tell truth, Hardin that makes business about people being able to trust him or Jade and SF who love forum warfare and "spyops". edit: made a mistake with quotes, Gaius was not showing properly
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 14:55:00 - [213] Originally by: Faridah I just want to add for accuracy: There was 1 large tower destroyed by some UK/SF forces in kbp just after a DT because of failure to put stront, guns or hardeners on it before it got attacked and held below 50% shields. Yes Faridah, I'm sure that in the eyes of CVA/Sev "that tower" doesn't count because it wasn't destroyed at a reinforcement battle with the CVA Providence forces in full attendance. Just like any Sev3rance ships destroyed round the clock "don't count" because the CVA are not in attendance to see them. I don't mean to knock you. But in a post above one of your alliance members absolutely asserted that UK/SF had never destroyed a tower in the campaign as a matter of great pride to you. But now we have the truth that a tower belonging to Sev3rance was actually destroyed by enemy action and you must admit this does place a bit of a murk of uncertainty over any statements made by Sev3rance representatives in this thread. The circumstances are irrelevant - the fact your alliance members have been less than truthful is not. You do need to be very careful about the things you claim on a public forum. [IMAGE REMOVED] "I might not have meant anything by it"
Virgil Aquilis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:02:00 - [214] Is this the thread where Jade Constantine is holding people to their word on an internet spaceships forum? [IMAGE REMOVED] Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:14:00 - [215] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 15:16:55 Originally by: Morden Nok The reason why you left out the timestamps is the same reason you deleted Solusar's posts filling in the blanks: You just want to have arena where you can do whatever you want and no-one can refute you. You also lied about Solusar's comments on your KB being "anonymous" and there is no way you can't squirm out of that one. Incorrect. Timestamps were removed because they take up too many of the 200 letter limit in the comment box to allow for any substantive information. I never claimed Solusar's comments on the KB were "anonymous". I said I would be deleting all anonymous comments from the CVA. And since I had deleted half a dozen or so angry pro-Solusar comments from "CVA sounding" anonymous posters with names like "EVERYONE, SFLIES & ..." already that morning the pattern was established. Solusar and Garreck's comments were deleted because the KB comment section is not a discussion forum. They were invited to discuss the issue on our forum and they did not wish too. Nobody is "squirming" here expect yourself in this rather embarrassing attempt to achieve a cover-up of Solusar's impolitic diplomatic and gloating statements in Dital local. Quote: Speaking of lying, SF do seem to love doing it. For example Jasmine Constantines war diary post in IGS Jasmine lied the CVA tower was put up before your attack when it was in fact done after it. Hardin's reply which point out the lies: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=631841 Hardin's post is a mess of contradictions, spin and complete fabrication. Its hardly the shining example of truth you seem to believe it is. I'd actually invite anyone interested in seeing the truth behind the "mask" of CVA "civility" to go and have a good look at that thread actually. Quote: Now the other readers just have to think, which one is more likely to tell truth, Hardin that makes business about people being able to trust him or Jade and SF who love forum warfare and "spyops". The mere fact that you are pretending that CVA doesn't love forum warfare and spyops speaks volumes about who should, and should not be trusted here. Hardin is the front man for an aggressive, enclosurist 0.0 alliance that will do whatever it thinks appropriate to "defend" its interests and defeat its enemies. Anybody that instinctively trusts him to speak the truth on matters involving the CVA is politically naive at best. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Tarantelita Ragna Rok Corp	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:24:00 - [216] F*** that was much, you must think you are intressting.
Amon Nagira Duty.	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:31:00 - [217] Originally by: Tarantelita F*** that was much, you must think you are intressting. Oh, she really does. You have no idea
Wiaf Mystic Lion Hearts Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:33:00 - [218] Edited by: Wiaf on 16/01/2008 15:33:16 Originally by: Conlin To be honest snake , posting ingame chatlogs (which can be doctored) makes you look extremely childish , or deperate I lol'd you just insulted Jade. yarr http://sev3rance.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=614 <- posting chatlogs lol
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:37:00 - [219] Originally by: Wiaf Edited by: Wiaf on 16/01/2008 15:33:16 Originally by: Conlin To be honest snake , posting ingame chatlogs (which can be doctored) makes you look extremely childish , or deperate I lol'd you just insulted Jade. yarr http://sev3rance.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=614 <- posting chatlogs lol Is that the chatlog where a Sev3rance member is claiming in local to have 100% proof that I "hired" Triumvirate to invade Providence by giving them some spare characters Wiaf? You Sev3rance guys are really not very good at this public relations game are you? "I might not have meant anything by it"
Virgil Aquilis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:46:00 - [220] Can you prove you didn't? Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes

Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:48:00 - [221] Originally by: Jade Constantine The mere fact that you are pretending that CVA doesn't love forum warfare and spyops speaks volumes about who should, and should not be trusted here. Hardin is the front man for an aggressive, enclosurist 0.0 alliance that will do whatever it thinks appropriate to "defend" its interests and defeat its enemies. Anybody that instinctively trusts him to speak the truth on matters involving the CVA is politically naive at best. Nice one on an OOC forum. So you did quote Solusar out of context, glad we got that one sorted. Maybe that was the reason he got upset too? ----------------------------------------------
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:54:00 - [222] Originally by: Gaius Kador Nice one on an OOC forum. So you did quote Solusar out of context, glad we got that one sorted. Maybe that was the reason he got upset too? Absolutely not. The Solusar quote was 100% accurate and in context. The original chatlog shows his comments were entirely as represented. The reason he got upset is that he managed to forget the Hardin directive about not "smacking" TRI too much (since CVA are VERY happy they pulled out) and allowed his tongue to run off with his sense. I understand this is frustrating for you pro-CVA people, but it is becoming very evident that you are trying every dirty trick in the book at this point and nothing you do has any effect but to make you look more desperate. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:03:00 - [223] Originally by: Jade Constantine Absolutely not. The Solusar quote was 100% accurate and in context. No, it's not, but that was covered nicely in Hardin's cute little storyboard.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:13:00 - [224] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 16:15:53 Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Jade Constantine Absolutely not. The Solusar quote was 100% accurate and in context. No, it's not, but that was covered nicely in Hardin's cute little storyboard. Nice of you to confirm it was Hardin Garreck. Let me explain how Hardin's Storyboard itself twists the truth and plays propaganda games shall I? 1. There were no "inaccuracies" represented on the SF killboard comments section. Solusar's comments as presented were 100% accurate and copied directly from the local chat. 2. Hardin neglects to screen-shot or address the issue of anonymous pro-CVA spam posting removed from that board in the morning. 3. He does however screenshot and cut and paste sections of the killboard comments in a disassembled and deeply manipulated fashion. (it is rather ironic for CVA people to complain about quotes from a killboard cut from a local chat in a clipped, copied and doctored graphic "storyboard" that is missing the anonymous comments that my comment there is referring too) 4. It does show solusar agreeing with the context and order of the comments he made. 5. Hardin is claiming that the commentary I made on that board referred purely to yours and Solusar's posts but it did not. (but since Hardin "forgot" to screen shot the anonymous comments it makes no sense in the context he presents) 6. It concludes with Hardin complaining that CVA is denied "free expression" of commentary on a killboard owned and operated by the SF. (Its completely true. CVA has no right to "free expression" on our Killboard comments section. It is not a debating forum. If you want to debate you are free to use our forum for the purpose. Our killboard is for our purposes not yours. So in conclusion Garreck. Yes you have tried to misrepresent and hide the truth that Solusar was caught out in impolitic statements in local chat and Hardin has involved himself in cut and pasting selective screendumps from somebody else's killboard comments section to build a "storyboard" that twists and manipulates the truth to attack a political enemy. And all this in an AAR thread that everyone else in the Community (except CVA/Sev and some goons) appeared to enjoy and value as a contribution to debate and theorycraft on CAOD. I can't say this is a great triumph for the CVA's reputation. But by all means continue. I imagine the general CAOD public is finding this all very informative indeed. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:22:00 - [225] Edited by: Garreck on 16/01/2008 16:27:37 Originally by: Jade Constantine 1. There were no "inaccuracies" represented on the SF killboard comments section. Solusar's comments as presented were 100% accurate and copied directly from the local chat. Solusar's quotes were incomplete, therefore inaccurate. Furthermore, Solusar's comments were direct responses to your comments, which are not included in the log, therefore they are also out of context. The rest of your commentary hinges on some anonymous post. I think I remember it: something like "lol." Your story would hold if you had deleted that post when you made your comment about anonymous posting. Instead, you deleted clearly marked posts as well and took a cheap shot. And now we're talking about it in a public forum like anyone cares. Good show. As for the TRI comment Sol made that is apparently so shocking and so anti-CVA policy...he said TRI failed in Providence. I think this is hardly a revelation. Or smack. edit This wants addressed as well: Originally by: Jade Constantine Nice of you to confirm it was Hardin Garreck. You're welcome, to be honest. I've never felt I nor the CVA have ever had anything to hide from the Eve public. If the origins of that storyboard weren't covered to this point, I figure they should be. It is, after all, an accurate storyboard: Sol was posted out of context, Sol tried to explain the context, Sol was edited out and a vague comment about anonymous posting was made.
Nek Tuomatta Advanced Combat Machines and Equipment Independent Faction	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:22:00 - [226] Jade, your posts should be printed and framed. So much can be learned from them. You are now reading my sig! Originally by: Gaius Kador Nothing surprises me as to the lengths Star Fraction will go to push their propaganda on the public masses.
Ituralde The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:32:00 - [227] Garreck, I am aware SF has a forum where one can register and express their opinions. Do tell Solusar about it, Killboard comments are a poor place to hold debates and the like. Not a very good medium and a mite tasteless. Unless something has changed, they do let less-than-friendlies register. I did it once and smacked them for near 10 pages, do have him give it a go if he feels he needs to take his grievances into a less public place than COAD. Just a suggestion. Cheers, Ituralde _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
Virgil Aquilis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:39:00 - [228] Edited by: Virgil Aquilis on 16/01/2008 16:39:42 Originally by: Nek Tuomatta Jade, your posts should be printed and framed. So much can be learned from them. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:41:00 - [229] Originally by: Garreck Solusar's quotes were incomplete, therefore inaccurate. Spurious logic. By that argument you are saying that ANY quote that doesn't represent the entire text is "inaccurate". Must we reproduce the entirety of our previous dialog when addressing any single conversational point. I think not. Hence your point is flawed. As I have said before the comment's box allows 200 characters. It is impossible to put an entire chat log there so by your argument it would never be valid to place any particular line of quote there. On your killboard you may make that rule Garreck. On ours we think otherwise. But it is absolutely incorrect for you to claim some objective rights and wrongs here. It is simply a matter of opinion and in this case our opinion is ascendant on resources we own and operate. If you don't like it don't read it. Simple as that. Quote: Furthermore, Solusar's comments were direct responses to your comments, which are not included in the log, therefore they are also out of context. Again entirely irrelevant. You were invited to post the entire log on our public forums if you cared enough about the context. We are very happy to debate the chatlog there. I'm particularly keen to talk about the CVA's "anti-spying" ROE in the context of Solusar's claims to have spy intelligence on the state of Ushra'khan's financial situation for example. Quote: The rest of your commentary hinges on some anonymous post. I think I remember it: something like "lol." Your story would hold if you had deleted that post when you made your comment about anonymous posting. Instead, you deleted clearly marked posts as well and took a cheap shot. Your clearly marked posts were deleted for trying to have a debate on a killboard comments section. You were invited to have this debate on a forum provided for the purpose. You chose instead to call in Hardin to take selective screenshots and fake up a storyboard that specifically cuts out the anonymous posts I was referring too in that comment. You have been caught out in a deeply murky attempt at manipulation here Garreck. All the backtracking in the world and suddenly "remembering" the anonymous posts I was referring too at this stage will not dig you out of this hole of your own devising. Quote: You're welcome, to be honest. I've never felt I nor the CVA have ever had anything to hide from the Eve public. If the origins of that storyboard weren't covered to this point, I figure they should be. It is, after all, an accurate storyboard: Sol was posted out of context, Sol tried to explain the context, Sol was edited out and a vague comment about anonymous posting was made. As your own admission that there were actually anonymous comments that Hardin has elected to edit out of his storyboard exists in plain text above - its impossible for you to claim its "accurate" with any degree of credibility. At this stage you have revealed that Hardin's storyboard is an attempt to twist and spin the truth by selective screendumps and falsehoods. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:48:00 - [230] Originally by: Ituralde I am aware SF has a forum where one can register and express their opinions. I'm sure if the misrepresentation had been made in a forum, it would've been addressed in a forum. Your idea has merrit, though I don't think polite discussion or, honestly, respect was much the point. The idea was to address a misrepresentation at the point of attack.

Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:53:00 - [231] Originally by: Jade Constantine You have been caught out in a deeply murky attempt at manipulation here Garreck. Why? Because I'm maintaining Sol was quoted out of context or because I endorse Hardin's storyboard? Deeply murky and manipulative indeed. I'm such a bad boy...
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:53:00 - [232] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Faridah I just want to add for accuracy: There was 1 large tower destroyed by some UK/SF forces in kbp just after a DT because of failure to put stront, guns or hardeners on it before it got attacked and held below 50% shields. Yes Faridah, I'm sure that in the eyes of CVA/Sev "that tower" doesn't count because it wasn't destroyed at a reinforcement battle with the CVA Providence forces in full attendance. Just like any Sev3rance ships destroyed round the clock "don't count" because the CVA are not in attendance to see them. I don't mean to knock you. But in a post above one of your alliance members absolutely asserted that UK/SF had never destroyed a tower in the campaign as a matter of great pride to you. But now we have the truth that a tower belonging to Sev3rance was actually destroyed by enemy action and you must admit this does place a bit of a murk of uncertainty over any statements made by Sev3rance representatives in this thread. The circumstances are irrelevant - the fact your alliance members have been less than truthful is not. You do need to be very careful about the things you claim on a public forum. You failed to put in stront. Quite funny. On top of that tower, there was one large tower in the pocket. I believe it was in TU. The jump bridge anchored there was also destroyed. And you can thank Gelo Breen for loosing you a True Sansha Medium Control Tower as well in KBP. That one was quite enjoyable. Poor Gelo. If you think guerrilla warfare can't accomplish tower kills. You in misinformed. Constant suppression led to many of them. Your pilots wilted under pressure and made mistakes. That's 2 larges and a medium. I don't recall about any others offhand. There might have been a small or two, I don't recall actually bringing any down, but shooting those were for fun.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:53:00 - [233] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 16:55:33 Originally by: Garreck I'm sure if the misrepresentation had been made in a forum, it would've been addressed in a forum. Your idea has merrit, though I don't think polite discussion or, honestly, respect was much the point. The idea was to address a misrepresentation at the point of attack. Your first problem was the absolute lack of any kind of misrepresentation. Just because Solusar was upset to be caught out in his comments doesn't mean that he's been misrepresented. Your second problem is SF KB = our resource. We decide how it is used. If we tell you that you must have any resulting debate on the forum then you must have the debate on the forum. If you disagree and try to have the debate on the KB we will simply delete you. You have no right of appeal or contest on the way comments are handled on our KB software. That is something you are just going to have to suck up and get used to. By all means keep viewing our public killboard (which is one of the few such resources available in Providence) but never believe you have equal standing to Star Fraction personnel there. You simply don't. The only obligation we make is to accurate post kills and losses. Everything else is entirely at our discretion and access for external viewers is a privilege not a right. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:59:00 - [234] Originally by: Garreck Why? Because I'm maintaining Sol was quoted out of context or because I endorse Hardin's storyboard? You have already admitted that Hardin's storyboard neglected to show the anonymous comments I was referring too. You cannot endorse Hardin's storyboard without admitting that you are in favor of selective quoting to make an argument. Given that you're trying to claim that selective quoting "misrepresented" Solusar I think we can all see how silly this makes your position in this debate. Hardin took the wise course several pages ago by withdrawing from this discussion. You'd be wise to do the same now your argument is comprehensively defanged and threadbare. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Conlin Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:00:00 - [235] Edited by: Conlin on 16/01/2008 17:02:46 Originally by: Wiaf Edited by: Wiaf on 16/01/2008 15:33:16 Originally by: Conlin To be honest snake , posting ingame chatlogs (which can be doctored) makes you look extremely childish , or deperate I lol'd you just insulted Jade. yarr http://sev3rance.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=614 <- posting chatlogs lol And I notice Morden completely ignores one area of his misguided argument . tsk tsk . Lights are on , but nobody in wiaf ? .
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:04:00 - [236] Originally by: Jade Constantine Your first problem was the absolute lack of any kind of misrepresentation. We could argue this until a mod locked the thread and not agree. I've explained why it was a misrepresentation. If incomplete quotes, lack of timestamps, and lack of all your own talking in between (which prompted the words to begin with) is an absolute lack of any kind of misrepresentation in your book, then coolbeans. Originally by: Jade Constantine Your second problem is SF KB = our resource. We decide how it is used. Frankly, that's not anybody's problem. It was just funny to see Star Fraction, of all organizations, resort to censorship on their killboard. Heck, CVA keeps their killboard private just to avoid such debacles...a practice which, interestingly enough, has been harshly ridiculed by Star Fraction in the past.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:10:00 - [237] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 17:12:41 Originally by: Garreck Frankly, that's not anybody's problem. It was just funny to see Star Fraction, of all organizations, resort to censorship on their killboard. Heck, CVA keeps their killboard private just to avoid such debacles...a practice which, interestingly enough, has been harshly ridiculed by Star Fraction in the past. We make it very clear that we do not entertain debate on our KB comments section. That is not what its there for, its not what its ever been there for. We have the strength of will to maintain our Killboard in public and we will continue to delete posts that attempt to misuse this resource. If there ever was a sustained "commentnaught" from the CVA we'd end up passwording the comments section and letting our friends and allies continue to post while removing the right for public commentary. This would be bad for genuinely honest enemies that correctly wish to post respectful notes on particular engagements but if its needed it will be done. And re the CVA's private killboard you are incorrect. We have not harshly ridiculed your hidden killboard Garreck. We have however staunchly defended the accuracy of our own against the Amarrian bloc tendency to try to play games with statistics and efficiency figures. End of the day we publish a full and accurate public record of our kills and losses. You do not. That fact is beyond challenge. If you feel sore that our killboard is the unchallenged source of data for engagements in Providence then maybe you should consider bringing your own into the public domain. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:28:00 - [238] Originally by: Jade Constantine End of the day we publish a full and accurate public record of our kills and losses. You do not. That fact is beyond challenge. I...I don't think anyone's challenging that, Jade. In fact, that's essentially what I just said.
Virgil Aquilis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:32:00 - [239] Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Jade Constantine End of the day we publish a full and accurate public record of our kills and losses. You do not. That fact is beyond challenge. I...I don't think anyone's challenging that, Jade. In fact, that's essentially what I just said. hahahaha ahahahaha oh man you broke Jade Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Hardin Amarr Glencore Pest Control Union	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:33:00 - [240] Originally by: Jade Constantine At this stage you have revealed that Hardin's storyboard is an attempt to twist and spin the truth by selective screendumps and falsehoods. I am sad this thread has degenerated to this. Your battle report was blatant spin but it was well written and we have far to little of that on CAOD. It's just a pity a few people on both sides simply cant control themselves! Regarding your quote above - No it wasn't. It was something created to demonstrate exactly how two-faced you can be Jade. You took Solusar's quotes, decided to post them completely out of context on your public killboard in the process deliberately manipulating them to make it look like Sol was having a dig at Tri. Then you deleted his response, in the process making a dig at 'annonymous CVA posters' - although that in itself is a contradiction in terms. I have no regrets about making the storyboard as it pretty conclusively demonstrates how someone who made such a fuss about being gagged on these forums has absolutely no compunction about doing some gagging of their own. Of course it is your killboard to do with as you wish so if you want to play around with it to make yourself look good and denigrate your enemies that is fine by me. It is part of the political game after all and therefore not something to complain about. What I think this clearly demonstrates (to those who do not actually know how you operate already) is that you are willing to stoop to any level and do anything simply to push your own agenda. Of course it is up to you how you play the game and there is nothing inherently wrong with that but just don't expect not to get called on it. For the record I do not set policy in the CVA. As I have told you before I am merely the monkey not the grinder. Nor was there a 'Hardin Directive' not to smack Tri. The CVA generally has a policy of not smacking anyone on any public forum and public posting beyond a few specific individuals is generally discouraged. This applies to everyone in the CVA although of course there is no way we can control everything our members post and sometimes it happens. Indeed when it has happened I are other CVA usually address the matter either publicly or privately with the individuals involved. Finally, I would simply suggest you stop with the desparate justifications as they really aren't helping. You have been caught playing the game and trying to deny what is blatantly obvious manipulation only serves to make you look like more of a control freak than you already do.... ------------------------------

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:34:00 - [241] I've just noticed that the forum rules explicitly forbid discussion of third party killboard issues on this forum. I'd like to apologise for being brought into a discussion of these issues. I'd like to request a moderator cleanup of the last couple of pages beginning with this post: here That begins the discussion a drama bomb with 3rd party KB software. This and every referring post (including mine I've edited to read "self-censorship") ar not on topic for this thread or allowed by the forum rules here. Sorry again for missing that rule. I'm going to report each of the KB referring posts to make it easier to tidy up. Thanks in advance to the moderation team. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Wiaf Mystic Lion Hearts Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:35:00 - [242] Originally by: Conlin Your lack of interpretation just made you look slightly ignorant ....... NEXT!!!! Whats that supposed to mean? I took what you said and told you what Jade did. "posint ingame chatlogs (which can be doctored) made her look extremely childish, or de(s)perate" in your words... Peace out
Zorlag Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:41:00 - [243] In this thread Jade Constantine exposes her utter insanity and makes unreasonable demands of the mod team in order to cover it all up
Wiaf Mystic Lion Hearts Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:46:00 - [244] Wiaf just points to 6-7 "self censored" posts. Can we close this now since Jade is trying to pull out and the arguments are kinda lost by censoring of her?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:51:00 - [245] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 17:56:17 Actually what it has exposed here as much as anything is what can go wrong with this forum when we donÆt behave with a lot of care. I mean, Hardin, Garreck, Gaius, and a host of other long term players AND myself, have just spent a page talking about an argument over a third party forum that is not allowed by the forum rules. Eve is a game that inflames passions group loyalties and sometimes we all get a head of steam up and just divide into battle lines without thinking it through. This thread is a good example of that - it started very well and has some very good posts and discussions ongoing but one person mentioned a debate over external killmails and this turned the whole thing into an ongoing discussion that was never going to convince either side and was derailing the thread. And worse than that, it was showing some intelligent people getting caught in the rut of poor quality posting that we really should be better than. IÆm not afraid to admit my mistakes and addressing this issue on CAOD was a mistake. IÆm going to call on the CVA also to admit this mistake and agree at this point to avoid all such discussion of these issues on a forum specifically barred to this subject. Its not about face-saving, itÆs about being mature and reasonable people who can appropriately make use of this resource. So Hardin, I removed my part of this debate and IÆd like to believe you can see the sense in doing the same to your part of this debate. Its in the best interest of this thread, this forum, and indeed the political game of eve-online that we do not slide down to the lowest common-denominator of debate and stupid allegations of things that happen on third party sites and resources. We're seen how bad things can get in the Goon vs Bob threads. We are better than that. Time to show our quality. We have both seen what happens to the quality of debate here when people lose a sense of perspective so it is now our responsibility as elder veteran players of this game to exercise some good sense and lead by example. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Wiaf Mystic Lion Hearts Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.16 18:11:00 - [246] Well Jade from my point of view, (sorry if the following might sound weird but english is not my motherlanguage) I have to say that im only a bit disapointed by your "operation posts" sounding like you were ablte to archieve a major victory. That was just not the truth. I stronlgy envy you of your verbal skills (sounds weird doesnt it?) but I dont like the idea of us getting pulled into the mud in open forums or local. Lets keep exchaning oppinions and stuff to the battlefield and no place else. You could try and post the Idea of the operation more objective like a documentary kinda type if you ask me. This will be my last post on this topic I didnt mean to **** anyone off but I still stand to my words and I strongly demand of characters from both sides to think twice or triple before posting or youll leave your arguments on thin ice. Peace out, Wiaf
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 18:19:00 - [247] Originally by: Wiaf Well Jade from my point of view, (sorry if the following might sound weird but english is not my motherlanguage) I have to say that im only a bit disapointed by your "operation posts" sounding like you were ablte to archieve a major victory. That was just not the truth. I stronlgy envy you of your verbal skills (sounds weird doesnt it?) but I dont like the idea of us getting pulled into the mud in open forums or local. Lets keep exchaning oppinions and stuff to the battlefield and no place else. You could try and post the Idea of the operation more objective like a documentary kinda type if you ask me. This will be my last post on this topic I didnt mean to **** anyone off but I still stand to my words and I strongly demand of characters from both sides to think twice or triple before posting or youll leave your arguments on thin ice. Peace out, Wiaf Thing is Wiaf if you re-read the AAR you will see that its pretty much completely frank about the failure of the primary objective and analysis of why it failed. I know its difficult to see past the "red rage" sometimes and actually read what an enemy is writing dispassionately but the op post is very factual and extremely honest when discussing our limitations, drawbacks and past experience. I think it will help us all to pay a little more attention to the quality of debate here though. We don't want to slip down to the standards of the lowest common denominator and thats the danger when people try to drag the threads off-topic with a 101 silly accusations to try to score "points". The reality is there is only one creditable way to "score points" against a well presented AAR thread. And thats to do something equally as glorious yourself. I really liked your video of the Stealth Bomber op and the disco music. I thought that was excellent and very creative. I think it would help your side, help the general mood of the forum, and be good for eve in general if rather than taking shots at this AAR thread from some misplaced sense of clan loyality the enemy side simply tried to "out-do" us with innovative tactics and dazzling PR in and of themselves. We both know where this thread started to go wrong. Time to put it right. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Nek Tuomatta Advanced Combat Machines and Equipment Independent Faction	Posted - 2008.01.16 19:33:00 - [248] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 17:28:24 (self censorship) Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 17:28:42 (self censorship) Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 17:27:47 (self censorship) Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 17:26:54 (self censorship) Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 17:27:29 (self censorship) Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 17:27:17 (self censorship) 6 posts censored by an advocate of free speech and open discussion. Priceless. There's always ways to find out if people are curious. You are now reading my sig! Originally by: Gaius Kador Nothing surprises me as to the lengths Star Fraction will go to push their propaganda on the public masses.
Nek Tuomatta Advanced Combat Machines and Equipment Independent Faction	Posted - 2008.01.16 19:52:00 - [249] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 18:03:17 IÆm not afraid to admit my mistakes Which mistakes are you admitting? Oh wait...you covered them up. Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 18:03:17Its not about face-saving, itÆs about being mature and reasonable people who can appropriately make use of this resource. Sure. Leave some space on the forum database for other people to post please. You are now reading my sig! Originally by: Gaius Kador Nothing surprises me as to the lengths Star Fraction will go to push their propaganda on the public masses.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.16 20:11:00 - [250] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/01/2008 20:11:09 Originally by: Nek Tuomatta Which mistakes are you admitting? Getting drawn into a discussion of a subject which is not permitted on this forum. Thats pretty much it. I'm very happy to discuss these things anywhere else. If you want to make a topic on our alliance forum (or somewhere else) then lets go for it. Thats the mistake Nek, don't bother trying to make more of it than that please. Now lets get the thread back ontopic. "I might not have meant anything by it"

Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.16 21:59:00 - [251] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 16/01/2008 22:02:14 Originally by: Snakester Yep, excellent work on destroying an offline tower from a member corp which had left. :edit- Also, if i remember rightly, said POS wasn't even in kbp, UK/SF have never killed a -7- pos in kbp, theyve put some in reinforced yes (1x small twice, 1x med twice and 2x lrg pos). More lies or are you conveniently forgetful too snakester? The large amarr tower I am speaking of was erected by sev in KBP close to DT in an attempt to match our tower balance. I spotted it going up and ordered an immediate assault. You were prevented from getting stront in to it and we continued our assault after DT with little to no resistance on your part. Its nothing to brag about I agree. But it is the truth, which is the only reason I posted about it in the first place. Spin is one thing but I count at least 3 posts in this thread by Sev3rance members that are outright lies. That is either purposeful (and pathetic) or you have terrible memories. Which is it? -----------------------------------------
RedLion Caldari Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 23:05:00 - [252] Edited by: RedLion on 16/01/2008 23:07:35 Hehe, very nice post Jade :) 100% propaganda, but I loved to read it. (Though this should maybe be in Intergalactic Summit foum?) I don't want to comment on our tactics, but just know that SF certainly has the chance to outnumber CVA in most fights we try to pick near SF base. But ofc, can't blame 10 of you for posting quality posts on forum instead of undocking and fighting 3 of us. Nice post, though, but seriously, please undock. But if you don't like to have Ammarians and allies in control of Providence, I heard Syndicate is not taken :P - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Silentil Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.01.17 01:44:00 - [253] Awesome write up Jade! The pirate fiasco was especially funny heh Originally by: "Mahrin Skel" If we're pets, we're not fluffy, yappy little lapdogs. We're the chewed-up junkyard rottweiler BoB uses to keep the kids out of their yard.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.01.17 02:04:00 - [254] So basically in this thread. Jade made a good story, and fictionalised alot of stuff, great read. People challenge this, and prooved her wrong, only when this happens does she find out about this "killboards" rule She then requests a massive cover up of the arguement based on the aforementioned rule, edits out a dozen of her statements, trying to save face?. Well if there is one thing jade could do, is geta business in the propaganda department, because although there are some truths, even those are based off lies, and when challenged she tries to wiggle her way out of it and get anything that "makes her (or SF) look bad" Nuked by mods convieniently because of the Killboards rule, which someone else mentioned earlier, and she probably did already know about, i mean i do, and i dont even bother posting in CAOD 99% of the time. Welcome to EvE
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.17 02:48:00 - [255] Originally by: Blane Xero So basically in this thread. Jade made a good story, and fictionalised alot of stuff, great read. Nothing was fictionalized actually. It all happened pretty much as described. It may well have been a good story but that doesn't mean it wasn't absolutely true. Quote: People challenge this, and prooved her wrong, only when this happens does she find out about this "killboards" rule She then requests a massive cover up of the arguement based on the aforementioned rule, edits out a dozen of her statements, trying to save face?. Nobody challenged anything successfully in this thread. And the "killboards" rule has nothing to do with the core elements of this discussion. That whole de-rail is a completely different issue which has a lot to do with many of us old guard players getting too carried away with the back and forth and slipping away from the topic. I'm not going to act all embarrassed about removing a bunch of posts that I considered were against the forum rules Blane. If you want to have the discussion about those things I invite you to come to the SF forums and we'll have the discussion. Quote: Edit: So what if S3v were "saved" by CVA, all this prooves is the fact that they are awesome allies to have, they put their balls on the line to bail Sev out (whether they needed or not, i personally dont know jack about most of what has been going on) and keep them alive, where most people would say "we didnt want those allies anyway". Since thats precisely what I was arguing in the op "that Sev3rance were failing and saved by CVA intervention only" I think you can why I feel nobody "challenged" anything I said with any degree of credibility in this thread. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Sinrath Caldari Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.01.19 09:59:00 - [256] Edited by: Sinrath on 19/01/2008 09:59:51 Originally by: Keorythe Yes yes, thanks for that opinion. Before I end this may I point out that its been close to if not more than a year that we've not only seen you Star Fraction diminish but you've shown that you can't fight without UK, Cognet, insert various mercenaries here, Eternal Rapture, Sani Sabik, and who knows how many other corporations listed on the KB's supporting you. The amount of isk lost, headaches caused, and bridges burned by all of them to your machinations, schemes, and ever changing ideology throughout that time is phenomenal. Your accomplishment to date? A great video! Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iZUh8ewNtY" Bomber Disco!![/url] Oh my, look at what you made me do! A WALL OF TEXT! Darn, I feel so dirty now. Quick someone give me a sponge bath! Good god man. Snoring up all of Columbia dont make it true. I suggest you go ask FuriousPig for enlightenment before you open your yap. Flapping those gums of yours just tears down any respect we had for Sev3rance real quick. Eternal Rapture is not mercenaries nor are we into plots, conspiracies, vendettas (yet) or any other such rubbish statements. Were here because we like pvp, the part you deliver little off unfortunately always hugging the POS'es like its religion. We are here above all else because StarFraction and Ushra'Khan is our friends. Just like CVA is yours. Do yourself a favour and dont flap the gums. We decided to leave the conflict for a time and communicated this to all parties. CVA, Sev ect but seems we will be right back at it given you cant control your emo. Cya in space where it counts. - Wisdom is nothing, without perception. Ceo, PvP Corp.
FuriousPig Amarr IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.20 14:17:00 - [257] Edited by: FuriousPig on 20/01/2008 14:17:49 In case anyone has forgotten, this thread was originally a well written (if somewhat flamboyant) battle summary of what turned out to be a very interesting night for all those involved. There is no doubt it was an excellently conceived idea & well executed. Its effectiveness in this instance, however, is well open for debate. Could we of removed the seven UK POS without the help of our friends? CVA, Sylph, Paxton & many others helped us achieve a daunting task. But, it is worth noting the towers would not have been there, in the first place, were it not for shameful exploitation of a bug in the POS mechanics! On the subject of good allies it is also worth mentioning that Eternal Rapture are NOT mercenaries. They fight without prejudice & only in the name of friendship. Their withdrawal from conflict is an honourable testament to the dichotomy of comradeship & principle. I have found Sinrath to be a perfect gentleman throughout this campaign & his dilemma is unenviable at best. Do you fight a war you donÆt believe in or do you fight for your friends? Were the situation different it would be a privilege to consider Eternal Rapture friends & allies, their principles very much mirror our own! Whether Sev3rance was about to fall is a mix of speculation, self indulgence, wishful thinking & is finally, academic. Both sides fought with tenacity & resolve. Both sides deserve respect & ultimately that is where this thread is failing badly. I would ask that in future threads we all avoid the hurling of insults & rhetoric & show respect where it is due. Remember you are representing your respective alliances in the public eye & you really donÆt want me to have to post again! Finally, I apologise on behalf of -7- for those we have offended during this passionate exchange & I would like to extend a huge debt of gratitude to all our comrades & allies for turning out to this campaign. It reinforced bonds, strengthened resolve & made me humbly remember; you are nothing without friends.
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2008.01.20 14:43:00 - [258] Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 20/01/2008 14:44:50 Pax Amarr! Keep the dirty Minmitar and Anarchist dogs down. I just wanted to post in this thread. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Tareen Kashaar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.20 17:17:00 - [259] I wish I had been there for this op, it looks so much fun on the video... all those cruise missiles are just awe inspiring. Reminds me of the excellent Revelations 2 trailer I humbly suggest that we keep having fun blowing each other up for higher ideals! --- WTS: Forum Signatures, price negotiable. Evemail me!
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.22 05:37:00 - [260] Originally by: FuriousPig it is worth noting the towers would not have been there, in the first place, were it not for shameful exploitation of a bug in the POS mechanics! Eh? Care to explain FP? -----------------------------------------

FuriousPig Amarr IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.22 08:47:00 - [261] Edited by: FuriousPig on 22/01/2008 08:50:34 Originally by: Karn Mithralia Originally by: FuriousPig it is worth noting the towers would not have been there, in the first place, were it not for shameful exploitation of a bug in the POS mechanics! Eh? Care to explain FP? Sure; please feel free to convo me in game rather than discus it here. I think enough off-topic comments are in this thread already. __________________
Eddie Gordo Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.22 09:04:00 - [262] Please dont try and make it look like your taking the high ground FP, you cant slander us in public but keep the evidence private. Now Recruiting
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.22 13:30:00 - [263] Boy, give the lady a break. RP would be much poorer without SF. The black-ops-bomber-thing was a nice out-of-the-box approach and Jade did a very readable report on it. The results of the experiment are open to interpretation, but at least a nice vid was created. Why not leave it to that? p.s. Sev give it up. You have your system back, now be nice and stop chest-beasting. We all know who saved your ass.
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.22 13:40:00 - [264] Hey guys guys guys hey guys are you paying attention to me hey guys don't go guyysssssss mods? hey moooooodss, pay some attention to me modsss hey look im breaking the rules modsss
Eddie Gordo Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.22 14:08:00 - [265] ^^ this is what a few months in goonswarm will do to you Now Recruiting
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.22 14:15:00 - [266] Originally by: Eddie Gordo ^^ this is what a few months in goonswarm will do to you beats acting like a constipated nobleman but hey man, mad props for honor etc
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 15:16:00 - [267] Originally by: Kabajashi San Boy, give the lady a break. RP would be much poorer without SF. The black-ops-bomber-thing was a nice out-of-the-box approach and Jade did a very readable report on it. The results of the experiment are open to interpretation, but at least a nice vid was created. Why not leave it to that? p.s. Sev give it up. You have your system back, now be nice and stop chest-beasting. We all know who saved your ass. Ah don't worry about my feelings Goonswarm posters are free bumps is what it boils down to. I generally don't read what they write (99% of it is in-joke SA community stuff that means nothing to "outsiders" anyhow) but in their quest to dominate all posting on CAOD it is quite amusing that they can't avoid boosting their enemies threads while trying to flame them - its quite a tasty irony really. Regarding the Sev3rance posting here. I think FP is unwise to allege "exploits" on the part of the Ushra'khan since I know precisely how that christmas campaign worked and we were at all stages guided by the advise of GM's and obeyed the ban on anti-POS warfare completely. To cut a long story short FP considers that it was an "exploit" to deploy POS towers during the "ban on POS warfare" period post Trinity patch. That clearly isn't the case. While GM's gave advise that any attack on the malfunctioning POS would be considered an exploit - they certainly didn't publicise a general ban on deploying new POS and to do so would have shut down a huge part of the game for very many people using these things for their daily eve business. The most annoying thing I personally find about FP's allegation here is the one-sided nature of it. He feels that Ushra'khan were wrong to deploy POS in the period of buggy POS status. But he feels Sev3rance were right to continue holding Sovereignty and using their own POS to hide in, utilize (and presumably draw income from) while any attacks on those POS were barred by the GMs. To me this is just double standards really. Its not reasonable that an alliance should have effectively untouchable barricades to hide behind while the enemy cannot deploy their own. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.22 15:39:00 - [268] Originally by: Blane Xero Edit: So what if S3v were "saved" by CVA, all this prooves is the fact that they are awesome allies to have, they put their balls on the line to bail Sev out (whether they needed or not, i personally dont know jack about most of what has been going on) and keep them alive, where most people would say "we didnt want those allies anyway". So, ultimatly, when it comes down to it, the only conclussions to be had are the fact SF can think out of the box, and CVA are great friends. One of the many things I like about Providence (and parts of Catch). You screw with one of them, you might as well have picked a fight with all of them. Best region in the game, which kinda leaves Jericho's crap off base. I mean, if these guys are some kind of oppressive regime dictating terms, how is it they can maintain what is arguably one of the only truly open regions of 0.0 outside of NPC space?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 15:47:00 - [269] Originally by: Janu Hull One of the many things I like about Providence (and parts of Catch). You screw with one of them, you might as well have picked a fight with all of them. Best region in the game, which kinda leaves Jericho's crap off base. I mean, if these guys are some kind of oppressive regime dictating terms, how is it they can maintain what is arguably one of the only truly open regions of 0.0 outside of NPC space? Lets you and I have the debate then Janu Hull. First of all, what you describe as "Jericho crap", could you explain what you mean by that, or rather what you believe we are actually fighting for in Providence? Secondly of course, can you explain why you believe a region that is controlled by a dominant military power that enforces its standings regime on all lesser powers (+visitors) is actually presenting an "open region" structure? You are describing pretty much the operation of an NBSI entity that requires certain standings from its "guests" as a pre-requisite for access and coexistence, you are not describing an open or freespace region. CVA may not fire on "neutrals" (non reds) but it will certainly set Red status for neutrals that refuse to follow its standings regime and assure they become targets for itself and all organizations following its derived standings in the true procession of standings enclosure common to most outward empires in eve 0.0. So come on Janu, lets leave the insults at the door and discuss this openly with good temper. I'm sure you'd like to step up and show the CAOD public your debating talents - lets debate! "I might not have meant anything by it"
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.22 15:54:00 - [270] you guys throw together words like we do frigates

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 16:03:00 - [271] Originally by: Dramaticus you guys throw together words like we do frigates Ah never you fear, we do frigates too "I might not have meant anything by it"
Olavane Riftsnake Clan Shadow Wolf Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.22 16:25:00 - [272] Originally by: Jade Constantine ... but it will certainly set Red status for neutrals that refuse to follow its standings regime ... Wrong. Come let's hit 10th page on this thread!
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.22 16:27:00 - [273] Originally by: Jade Constantine can you explain why you believe a region that is controlled by a dominant military power that enforces its standings regime on all lesser powers (+visitors) is actually presenting an "open region" structure? Probably because our standings regime enforcement takes place at the lowest possible level: "if it's not on our red list, don't shoot it." Which is undeniably more open than shooting at every non-blue that travels through our space...and also more open than the "you must shoot our reds" policy that you have continually tried to sell to the public as CVA's "regime."
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.22 16:33:00 - [274] we occasionally shoot blues so really yeah CVA is about as lax as you can get
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.22 17:03:00 - [275] Originally by: Jade Constantine Lets you and I have the debate then Janu Hull. First of all, what you describe as "Jericho crap", could you explain what you mean by that, or rather what you believe we are actually fighting for in Providence? I'd need a degree in parapsychology to scratch the surface of your alliance's pathology...needless to say, after examining the entrails of many dead pigeons and the consulting of a forest of tea leaves, I've left your philosophy in the X-Files and decided I like sanity a lot more than clarity. Originally by: Jade Constantine Secondly of course, can you explain why you believe a region that is controlled by a dominant military power that enforces its standings regime on all lesser powers (+visitors) is actually presenting an "open region" structure? You are describing pretty much the operation of an NBSI entity that requires certain standings from its "guests" as a pre-requisite for access and coexistence, you are not describing an open or freespace region. Actually, you don't have to set any standings at all to work Providence. None. Not a single red do you need to identify. You don't need CVA's permission, you don't need their blessing, you don't need to provide them with intel, you don't even need to form up for anti-pirate ops. Literally, to work in Providence, you just show up and do your thing (provided that "thing" isn't randomly blasting other players). So long as you keep your nose clean, then none of the residents of the region will bother you. Access to the intel channel, access to the "KOS" list(which gives you a pretty good idea of who you're going to run into who's likely gonna shoot on sight), and the ability to join up with anti-pirate gangs, that only requires a promise to actively participate with their ops. Basically, you get back what you're willing to put into it. For the price of occassionally forming up when you're in the area to help with an incursion, and the willingness to type "X reds (or hostile name) seen in blahblahblah, no eyes" from time to time, and you've got a pretty good link to what's going on in the region in real time. Its not exactly the most demanding service you'll ever do. I personally liked it because it gave me serious practice at learning how PvP works (and doesn't work) in roaming gangs, when I could afford the expense of disposable ships. I even got my first ***s at FCing with the neutrals, and that's not an opportunity that's offered to a typical rookie in a larger alliance. The bottom line is, the only rule in Providence is Don't Shoot First. If you can handle that, then its a genuinely enjoyable place to make a buttload of money without slaving away at the agents in lagholes like Motsu. Originally by:** Jade Constantine CVA may not fire on "neutrals" (non reds) but it will certainly set Red status for neutrals that refuse to follow its standings regime and assure they become targets for itself and all organizations following its derived standings in the true procession of standings enclosure common to most outward empires in eve 0.0. The only way you ended up with KOS status in Providence was picking a fight with the sovreigns or the neutrals. No one EVER got KOS for not enforcing the KOS list. The KOS list was a reference, hell, it was a reference you had to ask for, its not just handed out to everyone. No one was expected to drop anything to repel someone on the KOS list every time someone showed up (and if you never showed up at all, after a while, the worst result would be expulsion from the intel channel). Even forming up for those of us on the intel channel was somewhat voluntary, because a lot of times, half the people on the channel were half a dozen jumps (or more) away from the action or back in empire (most of us weren't permanent residents out there). Like I said, the crap y'all spew about CVA's operations in Providence are the result of some seriously nihilistic delusions.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 17:23:00 - [276] Right then lets get started: Olavane Riftsnake. I asserted that CVA will set Red status to neutrals that refuse to follow its standings and you declared this ôwrongö. I will tell you now that if a neutral corporation wanted to come to Providence and wasnÆt prepared to overlook previous aggression against its members by a Providence resident (and set appropriate +standings) it will get declared KOS by the CVA. There are several Providence residents that believe the CVAÆs NRDS ôno piracyö rule only applies in Providence and feel they are able to aggress 3rd corporations and alliances with impunity outside Providence. Basically the CVA are enforcing a standings regime in Providence where one must not shoot their friends, and must (if one wishes to remain) adopt a Red list that they say ômay or may not be followed at the preference of the new residentö. This is the ôgrey areaö that CVA feels gets them out from under the accusation of standings enclosure but I think youÆll agree itÆs a more a legalistic twisting than a principled position. Who is truly nanve enough to believe that asking a ôneutralö to set other corporations and alliances -10 on from a centralised Red List will not end up with said ôneutralsö shooting entities on that list? "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 17:27:00 - [277] Originally by: Garreck Which is undeniably more open than shooting at every non-blue that travels through our space...and also more open than the "you must shoot our reds" policy that you have continually tried to sell to the public as CVA's "regime." Garreck you hand out a Red list that you ask people in Providence to set. You tell us that you aren't expecting these people to automatically shoot at the targets on the red list but come on, that really isn't creditable. Its ridiculous to expect organisations like (for example) The Omni Federation and Twisted Infection to set a bunch of corporations and alliances they have never before interacted with -10(RED) and expect them no to act on that direction. You are handing out a Kill on Sight list to people and claiming that you don't have responsibility for what they do with it. Thats like handing out rifles and get out of jail free cards to psychotics and wringing your hands at the carnage they cause. Its simply not a credible political stance. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 17:43:00 - [278] Now then Janu Hull. Firstly letÆs leave your amateur psychology analysis of our ideology at the door and move directly to the meat of your points: Firstly IÆll correct your misunderstanding right off the bat. Yes you do need to set standings to ôworkö in Providence. Since you are only allowed to shoot targets on the CVA red list you need to remove any -10Æs you have that are currently out of kilter with the CVA central list otherwise you run the risk of your members engaging those targets and earning KOS from the CVA. For example, say youÆve previously been engaged by members of IAC, CSA, or Sev3rance ôpiratingö û ie shooting at neutrals in regions other than Providence. You as a dutiful CEO will have set those guys -10 as a warning to your members right? Well when you come to Providence youÆll need to forgive them for those offences otherwise youÆll be judged the aggressor and get placed on the CVA red list. So next step is comparing your list with the CVAÆs, editing out your reds that donÆt appear on their list and while youÆre at it, (if you want into the CVAÆs good books) you set the CVAÆs reds as yours ôjust as a warning/heads-up to membersö but the CVA will remind you that you donÆt automatically have to shoot those guys! So weÆre seeing a lot of standings changes necessary already. Sure Janu, if youÆd never before interacted with anyone else in eve before and had no existing reds then maybe you get away with this, but how likely is that really? So then you go onto this talk of ôcommunityö in Providence and what you need to do to get access to Citadel ôanti pirateö channel and thatÆs (yep) setting standings in accordance to the CVA red list and passing information on those ôredsö and being prepared to fire on them with CVA ôanti pirateö gangs. ThatÆs pretty much sounding like a standings regime to me. Your last paragraph just repeats the error of the first. It is very possible to get on the KOS list in Providence for not abiding by the Standings list itself. All you need is an existing -10 for past aggression that you are not prepared to let slip in exchange for ôaccessö to Providence. Full example again û SF was aggressed from neutral by Sev3rance Alliance. WeÆd had absolutely no prior involvement with them and out of the blue they fired on one of our ships. We came to Providence to get some payback and revenge against Sev3rance but the moment we fire on a Providence resident we get added to a global KOS list and everyone following that standing gets told ôyou donÆt have to shoot but you canö fire on us. ThatÆs enforcing standings Janu Hull. Its often said by CVA that ôwhat happens in Providence stays in Providenceö but the reality is that ôwhat happens outside of Providence is forcibly kept outside Providenceö by CVA enforced requirement to void valid and existing -10Standings directed against their allies. Demanding an organization remove a -10 status from a Providence resident is every bit as authoritarian as demanding an organisation set a -10 status for a neutral corp. Both things happen. Providence is not the utopia you seem to think it is. (Though granted, after your experiences in DMC I can see how you might think it is) "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.22 17:47:00 - [279] Originally by: Jade Constantine Its ridiculous to expect organisations like (for example) The Omni Federation and Twisted Infection to set a bunch of corporations and alliances they have never before interacted with -10(RED) and expect individual members of their outfits not to act on the explicit direction of their standings list. Now you're being deliberately dense. Its been said repeatedly that the KOS list is not a mandate imposed on anyone working in Providence. If you haven't gotten this through your head yet, then the only conclusion reachable is that you don't want to get it. Have it your way, but don't sit on your high horse and proclaim you have any understanding of what it is you're going up against. You only want to justify your bloviated roleplay meme, and that's perfectly acceptable. You wouldn't be the first self absorbed twit to ever wear the RP badge.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 17:56:00 - [280] Originally by: Janu Hull Now you're being deliberately dense. Its been said repeatedly that the KOS list is not a mandate imposed on anyone working in Providence. If you haven't gotten this through your head yet, then the only conclusion reachable is that you don't want to get it. I have a chatlog sitting on my diplomacy and communications forum with a local discussion with a Twisted Infection pilot stating that it is a condition of his alliance's residence in Providence that SF is set -10(RED) to them. He repeated stated he wished it wouldn't come to blows but it was a condition of their residency that they adopt that list. Have you considered the possibility that you are the person who is simply not understanding how Providence works Janu Hull? Quote: Have it your way, but don't sit on your high horse and proclaim you have any understanding of what it is you're going up against. You only want to justify your bloviated roleplay meme, and that's perfectly acceptable. You wouldn't be the first self absorbed twit to ever wear the RP badge. Do you think you could dispense with the insults please? I am interested in debating these issues with you but I see no purpose to your personal attacks. Please calm down, have a cup of tea and lets debate as responsible adults. "I might not have meant anything by it"

Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.22 18:31:00 - [281] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Janu Hull Now you're being deliberately dense. Its been said repeatedly that the KOS list is not a mandate imposed on anyone working in Providence. If you haven't gotten this through your head yet, then the only conclusion reachable is that you don't want to get it. I have a chatlog sitting on my diplomacy and communications forum with a local discussion with a Twisted Infection pilot stating that it is a condition of his alliance's residence in Providence that SF is set -10(RED) to them. He repeated stated he wished it wouldn't come to blows but it was a condition of their residency that they adopt that list. Have you considered the possibility that you are the person who is simply not understanding how Providence works Janu Hull? Given your alliance's history with Providence, I'm not overly surprised. I'm pretty sure Terra Incognita alliance, Ushra'khan, and a few others are probably still not too welcome for very good reason. Hell, I still have you set to red for my own personal reasons, despite the fact that I'm just a grunt in my current outfit in a completely different area. Call me crazy, but I've found Aralis and company to be pretty good judges of character. I stand by my previous statements. They were the exact methods I worked the region for almost a year before leaving, without so much as an whisper of unhappiness from CVA, Sylph, Paxton or S3verance. They are the same rules that every other neutral who made their first appearance in the intel channel were greeted with while I was there, and I can be pretty sure that despite the constant presence of over a hundred people (sometimes nearly two hundred) in the intel channel at any given time, none of the response gangs we ever assembled numbered more than two dozen, without much griping about participation (the only grumbling you'd ever hear were when we'd get less than five). If what they gave Twisted Infection came as a more obligatory order, then its likely because they're setting up more than just corp hangars in the stations. They're probably going to be putting towers up in the area, which means CVA's going to want a few more assurances about their interests. I'm not 100% certain there, but given the explanation I was given when I asked about towers a few months back, that makes sense. I do not see anything wrong with it. Is it logical to you that an alliance placing towers would have interests or friends hostile to the local sovreign alliances?
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.22 18:55:00 - [282] Originally by: Jade Constantine Garreck you hand out a Red list that you ask people in Providence to set. It's not that simple, I'm afraid. Our list is made available to people who ask for it. Quid pro quo: we provide a list of folks likely to fire on them in Providence, we ask that they report when they see those folks. We don't require that they take offensive action. Neutrals who do not care to ask for that list are allowed to just float around doing whatever they do...so long as "whatever they do" is not firing on whomever they choose. If such an incident does occur, things get even more interesting: we don't resort to "red-listing" them first. Diplomatic means are excercised to clear things up. We excercise our right as sovereign to say "hey, that was inappropriate, how about you pay the victim back and not do that anymore?" So where does that leave us? Not only are neutrals allowed in our space without being fired upon for the simple crime of not being "blue," but if those neutrals mess up, they're given an opportunity to make it right before they're fired upon. How insanely oppressive! Yes we have a red list. Yes we share it with people who ask, with the only "requirement" that they report those reds when they see 'em. Yes, we have allies, which is another step up in our apparently oppressive regime in which we provide direct military assistance, and ask that our allies do the same for us. Each step closer in relations to CVA does indeed require a higher degree of dedication to CVA interests...but each step closer is a voluntary step on the part of the organization wishing to assist the CVA further. At the most basic level, nothing is asked or required. The system in place is simply a practical means to create an environment where true neutrals can enter an area of space and expect to be able to carry out their business in reasonable security. It's illustratively the least oppressive system in place in a region of 0.0. I realize it sticks in your craw a bit that your perfect enemy has found a way to make NRDS work...but calling it an oppressive standings enclosurist regime once, ten times, or a thousand times won't actually make it oppressive.
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2008.01.22 18:55:00 - [283] I cant help wondering if Jade would be happy to roll with someone who shot at her blues and liased with her reds Pax Amar. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:03:00 - [284] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 22/01/2008 19:03:13 Originally by: Janu Hull Given your alliance's history with Providence, I'm not overly surprised. I'm pretty sure Terra Incognita alliance, Ushra'khan, and a few others are probably still not too welcome for very good reason. Hell, I still have you set to red for my own personal reasons, despite the fact that I'm just a grunt in my current outfit in a completely different area. Call me crazy, but I've found Aralis and company to be pretty good judges of character. I'm glad we can now agree that your earlier comment was incorrect though right? But of course it wasn't a simple question of SF being a "special case" - those alliances I named have been asked to set a Red list that makes enemies of corps and alliances previously neutral to them. And now I do have to ask. You say you have SF set to red? Are you a leader of your corporation/alliance, and can you confirm that you currently have SF set to -10? The reason I ask is that we do actually currently have DMC set to "neutral" on the absence of any recorded hostility against our shipping. But if you can confirm now that you hold a leadership position inside DMC I'll be happy take take your verbal promise of aggression as suitable grounds to set you -10 immediately. Quote: I stand by my previous statements. They were the exact methods I worked the region for almost a year before leaving, without so much as an whisper of unhappiness from CVA, Sylph, Paxton or S3verance. I'm afraid you can't stand by your previous statements since you've admitted here they were false. At the very least you are going to have to accept that CVA does hand out standings lists that they ask new organizations in Providence to adopt. Quote: If what they gave Twisted Infection came as a more obligatory order, then its likely because they're setting up more than just corp hangars in the stations. They're probably going to be putting towers up in the area, which means CVA's going to want a few more assurances about their interests. I'm not 100% certain there, but given the explanation I was given when I asked about towers a few months back, that makes sense. I do not see anything wrong with it. Is it logical to you that an alliance placing towers would have interests or friends hostile to the local sovreign alliances? It may not be illogical for a territorial alliance to ask new residents to submit to the standings regime - but that is the crux of what we've been debating here Janu Hull. I have asserted that CVA behaves in this way, you initially disagreed, but if we can now agree that this is how they operate we can reach consensus. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:06:00 - [285] Originally by: Garreck It's not that simple, I'm afraid. Our list is made available to people who ask for it. Quid pro quo: we provide a list of folks likely to fire on them in Providence, we ask that they report when they see those folks. We don't require that they take offensive action. I am going to have to stop you there Garreck. Your account doesn't concur with what we have been told by your newest tenants in 9UY. Please feel free to continue this when you've resolved the Twisted Infection / Omni Confederation "issue" in some way. But until that is clarified to my satisfaction I'm not prepared to accept your word on the above. It doesn't represent the current happenings in Providence. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:07:00 - [286] Originally by: Jane Spondogolo I cant help wondering if Jade would be happy to roll with someone who shot at her blues and liased with her reds Pax Amar. Unless they shoot at us its quite literally "none of our business". "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:22:00 - [287] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Jane Spondogolo I cant help wondering if Jade would be happy to roll with someone who shot at her blues and liased with her reds Pax Amar. Unless they shoot at us its quite literally "none of our business". You seem awfully happy to tell the Empror's people, and those they make friends that they can't make gentlemly agreements to synch standings. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:31:00 - [288] Originally by: Jane Spondogolo You seem awfully happy to tell the Empror's people, and those they make friends that they can't make gentlemly agreements to synch standings. Incorrect. But they do need to appreciate as long as they synchronize standings in such a way as to commit aggression against previously neutral entities we are: A) going to shoot them for their aggression against us B) point out that its not "freespace" if a larger power is setting their standings for them. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:37:00 - [289] Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Jane Spondogolo I cant help wondering if Jade would be happy to roll with someone who shot at her blues and liased with her reds Pax Amar. Unless they shoot at us its quite literally "none of our business". You seem awfully happy to tell the Empror's people, and those they make friends that they can't make gentlemly agreements to synch standings. Understanding the Star Fraction
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:46:00 - [290] Originally by: Jade Constantine Please feel free to continue this when you've resolved the Twisted Infection / Omni Confederation "issue" in some way. Way ahead of you.

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 20:36:00 - [291] Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Jane Spondogolo I cant help wondering if Jade would be happy to roll with someone who shot at her blues and liased with her reds Pax Amar. Unless they shoot at us its quite literally "none of our business". You seem awfully happy to tell the Empror's people, and those they make friends that they can't make gentlemly agreements to synch standings. [url="link removed]Understanding the Star Fraction[/url] Mr Hull, we just had a miniature debate and it ended up with you admitting you were wrong about the point you'd tried making. If you are reduced to posting off-topic links to wikipedia that shows a certain something lacking from your discussion style. By the way, can I have an answer on the question I asked you earlier please? Do you have command authority in your Corp/Alliance and can you confirm you currently have the Star Fraction set to -10KOS? "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.22 20:48:00 - [292] Originally by: Jade Constantine Do you have command authority in your Corp/Alliance and can you confirm you currently have the Star Fraction set to -10KOS? No to the first, I'm just a grunt. As for standings, my personal standings are red, yes.
FuriousPig Amarr IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.22 22:01:00 - [293] Originally by: Eddie Gordo Please dont try and make it look like your taking the high ground FP, you cant slander us in public but keep the evidence private. Oh dear, it seems Eddie thinks I would be foolish enough to make a claim without evidence & Jade now feels she can read my mind. Neither are true. I wanted to keep the thread on track but here goes: As you are aware we have Jump Bridges throughout these systems. Specifically we have Jump Bridges that lead to KBP. When UK placed the towers in KBP we organised a fleet of Capitals to remove them. The obvious tactic is to drop the Cyno Jammer in an adjacent system & Jump Bridge through to KBP. This would prevent the admission of an Enemy Capital Fleet. However, after the last patch, the Jump Bridge system did not function & so we had assembled but were unable to move through to KBP. Our only option was to drop the Jammer in KBP in the hope UK were not aware of this problem. Unfortunately you seemed very aware of this issue & had your Capital Fleet on Standby. The second the Jammer was dropped in KBP you brought in your Capital fleet. It could be argued that this was a coincidence, but I find it difficult to believe, firstly, the Cyno Jammer was being so closely watched that you jumped in the second it came down. Secondly & most importantly, that your Cap Fleet was ready at all. There was no grounds for it to be used; the system was jammed & there would be no logical reason for that to change. Before this devolves into further bad blood I would like to point out this is old news & in the past. I did not complain at the time & quite frankly I don't care now. I put it down to a bad call to drop the jammer but which ever way you look at it, advantage was taken of broken POS mechanics. My post was a vain attempt to get things civil, but I should of known better.
Eddie Gordo Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.22 22:19:00 - [294] Edited by: Eddie Gordo on 22/01/2008 22:22:26 Please dont speak of trying to keep things civil. If you wanted to keep things civil you could have asked for a private convo without trying to accuse us of exploiting the system, when reality all we did is exploit a bad decision. We were aware that you were going to take your cyno jammer down, specificly the exact time you intended to do so. You have lax security protocalls to thank for that. We werent however aware that this was because of a bug, we just thought you were either incompetant or too cheap to pay for the jump fuel. Now Recruiting
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.22 22:22:00 - [295] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 22/01/2008 22:23:29 Originally by: FuriousPig However, after the last patch, the Jump Bridge system did not function & so we had assembled but were unable to move through to KBP. Our only option was to drop the Jammer in KBP in the hope UK were not aware of this problem. Unfortunately you seemed very aware of this issue & had your Capital Fleet on Standby. The second the Jammer was dropped in KBP you brought in your Capital fleet. Yeah but you seem to forget we'd already taken the Jammer down twice already with conventional battleship groups and were quite able to do it again at need while CVA were away being suppressed by TRI. Unfortunately for us the ban of "POS warfare" meant we couldn't hit the jammer with Battleships to take it down. As a result the POS spam balanced things out since only you could legally bring the jammer down in the post Trinity state of the game. (either that or attack UK POS with purely battleship grade combatents yourselves) Its six of one half a dozen of the other Furious. If the POS bug hadn't happened we'd have killed the jammer with battleships and brought in our capitals. Its unreasonable for you to complain about one bug (the jump bridges) while you were being effectively protected by a cyno-jammer attached to a Tower we couldn't legally attack. Best conclusion is = Trinity Patch messed up a lot of war plans. It is absolutely foolish to try to make political capital and besmirch the reputation of war enemies by highlighting only one factor in a complex Trinity bug situation. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.22 22:57:00 - [296] FP thats the first I've heard of a jump bridge bug, doesn't surprise me though, POS warfare has always been buggy. Take it or leave it as you will but you have my word that it didn't factor in any tactical decision making on my part. Regardless, I'm still mystified as to what the jump bridge bug/cyno jammer has to do with us putting up first 5 and then 2 more fully armed POS with no resistance? And what that has to do with why you didn't attack them in the 7 days grace you get before they can add to a sov claim? I was also accused by your members of exploiting when we attacked that tower you tried to erect to counter our sov claim. How attacking a tower while its on-lining is an exploit beats me as much as it seems to have confused the GM you petitioned. -----------------------------------------
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 01:34:00 - [297] Originally by: Janu Hull No to the first, I'm just a grunt. As for standings, my personal standings are red, yes. Can you tell me the name of your active Corp Leader/CEO/Diplomats please mr Hull. I will need to check with them as to whether your "personal standings" / desire to shoot SF shipping is reflected in / allowed by the Terra Incognita corporation (and indeed DMC as a whole). If they say they are fine with your intentions to aggress SF shipping then I'm sure we can cut through a lot of red tape and simply set you a reciprical -10 on the alliance level and you'll get your wish to fight us. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Olavane Riftsnake Clan Shadow Wolf Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 09:10:00 - [298] Originally by: Jade Constantine Right then lets get started: Olavane Riftsnake. I asserted that CVA will set Red status to neutrals that refuse to follow its standings and you declared this ôwrongö. I will tell you now that if a neutral corporation wanted to come to Providence and wasnÆt prepared to overlook previous aggression against its members by a Providence resident (and set appropriate +standings) it will get declared KOS by the CVA. There are several Providence residents that believe the CVAÆs NRDS ôno piracyö rule only applies in Providence and feel they are able to aggress 3rd corporations and alliances with impunity outside Providence. Basically the CVA are enforcing a standings regime in Providence where one must not shoot their friends, and must (if one wishes to remain) adopt a Red list that they say ômay or may not be followed at the preference of the new residentö. This is the ôgrey areaö that CVA feels gets them out from under the accusation of standings enclosure but I think youÆll agree itÆs a more a legalistic twisting than a principled position. Who is truly nanve enough to believe that asking a ôneutralö to set other corporations and alliances -10 on from a centralised Red List will not end up with said ôneutralsö shooting entities on that list? Miss Jade, I respect your ability and tactics on the battlefield, but your forum ability make me sad, I fail to understand the reason you gave me about not following KOS list will get you a Red status from CVA. I must be stupid. The neutrals that you are talking about will get red status if they shoot on providence resident or neutral pilot in providence, that's an act of aggression. CVA never told us to set your alliance -10 for example, we just set you -10 because red is a cooler colour for you. Feel free to convo me if you like. I'll step out before this thread reach 11 pages
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.23 13:22:00 - [299] Edited by: Kabajashi San on 23/01/2008 13:25:33 Ok, honestly, it is not a smart move to post here but I can't hold back when people claim Providence free space. All RP and such apart let's talk straight. As Jade pointed out when you go to Providence you will have to remove any red from your list that is not red on the CVA list. Otherwise when you shoot him basing on your list you will get reported and then end up on CVA KOS list yourself. Am I wrong here? Second thing is that de facto (meaning without obligation but due to accepting reality) any/90%/most permanent residents in Providence has added the CVA reds to their list or simply copied the CVA list. Wrong? Now, of course it is the true that CVA as a territory holding alliance (no judgement there) has the right to protect its interest. It is also true that the conditions to live here are less strict than in most other parts of Eve space. But based on the above I think you cannot make the valid claim that living in Providence has nothing to do with the standings of the souvereign there and that anyone can just free float there not minding the KOS list. If you would cut that (when not RPing of course because IC you are just evil lying etc.pp. ) we can have a common ground I think. /edit: Oh yeah, forgot the thing Garreck mentioned. If you pay you don't land on the KOS list. But that doesn't make my point invalid I think, because what is the point of shooting a red when you have to reimburse him?
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.01.23 14:03:00 - [300] Originally by: Kabajashi San Second thing is that de facto (meaning without obligation but due to accepting reality) any/90%/most permanent residents in Providence has added the CVA reds to their list or simply copied the CVA list. Wrong? There is no 'CVA list', only a 'Deliverance list' as everyone living in the area can have entities added to the list if diplomatic means fail to resolve an issue. You can try to paste the CVA as tyrants as much as you like. At the end of the day they are not as quite some locals have already pointed out. Providence is one of the most neutral friendly and accessible 0.0 regions with a good community. But keep bull****ting yourselves, bitter people. Now recruiting!

Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 15:28:00 - [301] Originally by: Kabajashi San Second thing is that de facto (meaning without obligation but due to accepting reality) any/90%/most permanent residents in Providence has added the CVA reds to their list or simply copied the CVA list. Wrong? Admittedly, after I started flying in CVA space, I pretty quickly (and expensively) discovered that most of the entities on the Deliverance list were just as happy to blast me out of space as they were anyone in CVA, so it kinda logically followed that if I were going to associate myself with CVA, then those who opposed them (like the UK gatecamp that specifically put it in my face that I was taken down because I had "CVA Friendly" in my bio), their enemies were quickly going to become mine. Its nothing personal, the first week or two I was in Providence, I flew out of 9UY while UK controlled it and got along pretty well with the locals. After that situation changed, I had to adapt in order to stay afloat. I didn't have any grudges with UK members (I still don't), I didn't get irked when you guys blasted my ships, its just the way things worked out there and I dealt with it. Quid pro quo, you blast me because I associate with your enemies, then I'm probably not gonna like you after a REAL short while.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 16:27:00 - [302] Originally by: Olavane Riftsnake Miss Jade, I respect your ability and tactics on the battlefield, but your forum ability make me sad, I fail to understand the reason you gave me about not following KOS list will get you a Red status from CVA. I must be stupid. I'll explain again Olavane, its no problem for me There are two elements at play here. CVA maintain a RED list that contains the names of all entities in Providence that they a) want people to shoot, and b) allow people to shoot. Now the first category is something they argue is not mandatory (despite some evidence to the contrary from recent arrivals to providence) but the reality is they are telling you that IF you want to set REDs in Providence you must set those REDS specifically listed on THEIR RED LIST. You do not have the freedom to keep, maintain, or set REDs based on your own experience in 0.0 (or empire) space. You MUST be subordinate to the CVA standings regime at all times. For Example. Say I'm a member of a happy little neutral corp just doing my thing in 0.0. I come to Catch and try a little ratting and I get shot at by a Slyph gang doing NBSI (since its not Providence it doesn't matter to the CVA standings regime and isn't recognised as aggression by the self-appointed Providence rulers). Nasty Slyph pilots kill my ratting Raven and I set them -10 to warn my corpmates that Slyph are "pirates" and will kill ratters. Then another member of my corp goes to Providence having heard what a "Free and Promised Land" it is from the CVA propagandists and sees one of the Slyph pilots who ganked me in Catch and tries for a little revenge. But he's not "free" to do so, since Slyph is not on the CVA RED list and we can only have REDs that the CVA specifically authorise. In effect our own indpendence and decision making is something that must be given up in order to exist in Providence without having the CVA hostile. Standings enclosure works both ways Olavane. The creeping (manipulative) standings enclosure of the CVA Red List is one thing, but then so is the fact that one CANNOT have independent RED standings in Providence without the CVA signing off on it. Neither of which represents any kind of freedom or freespace experience and is precisely what I was arguing (and you initially took umbrage with). "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 16:35:00 - [303] Originally by: Tharrn There is no 'CVA list', only a 'Deliverance list' as everyone living in the area can have entities added to the list if diplomatic means fail to resolve an issue. Thats just rather weak semantics at best Tharrn. The CVA/Deliverance List (whatever you want to call it) is owned and administrated by the CVA leadership and nothing goes onto that list (or is removed) without the express say-so of CVA leadership. It exists primarily to ensure that a price of "doing business" in Providence is to accept CVA political standings and + or - and to make certain that no Providence resident can have divergent standings to the ruling caste. Quote: You can try to paste the CVA as tyrants as much as you like. At the end of the day they are not as quite some locals have already pointed out. Providence is one of the most neutral friendly and accessible 0.0 regions with a good community. But keep bull***ting yourselves, bitter people. Could you please ease up on the flaming and personal attacks please Tharrn? This is an out-of-character forum and since you know precisely nothing about the character or situation of the players behind the avatars that the CVA fight in game and in political debate it is absolutely pointless and intensely disrespectful for you to speak of their mental state in this open forum. The CVA might well have a slightly* more open political system that the very worst deep 0.0 tyrants but thats like saying Genghis Khan is slightly less blood-thristy than Attila the Hun at this point. The reality is that CVA's standings enclosurist regime in Providence is 99% as authoritarian and dictatorial as any average 0.0 NBSI power and considerably more manipulative and deceitful in practical operation. It is one thing to shoot neutrals. (Most 0.0) Its quite another to manipulate neutrals into shooting other neutrals and then claiming its in their own interest to make war on other NRDS entities (Only CVA do this on an ongoing and systematic level in Eve) "I might not have meant anything by it"
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.23 16:37:00 - [304] Originally by: Jade Constantine Standings enclosure works both ways Olavane. The creeping (manipulative) standings enclosure of the CVA Red List is one thing, but then so is the fact that one CANNOT have independent RED standings in Providence without the CVA signing off on it. Neither of which represents any kind of freedom or freespace experience and is precisely what I was arguing (and you initially took umbrage with). I'll ignore the first part of your post as it seems that no amount of telling you otherwise will get you to accept that the CVA don't force anyone to adopt their standings. Regarding the CVA not liking pilots shooting at people not on the red list, what do you think would happen if this wasn't the case? Clearly, everyone would be shooting at whoever they liked with the result that the strong would prey on the weak. That's not freespace, that's a recipe for anarchy. Providence would cease to be a place where less experienced people can dip their toes into the 0.0 waters. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 16:38:00 - [305] Originally by: Janu Hull snipped general commentary Could I be a pain and ask you to answer the question I asked near the bottom of page 10 please Janu Hull. For completeness sake I would like to speak to your corporate leadership tonight just to get our standings issue settled. Okay? "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 16:41:00 - [306] Originally by: Rodj Blake I'll ignore the first part of your post as it seems that no amount of telling you otherwise will get you to accept that the CVA don't force anyone to adopt their standings. No amount of CVA propaganda is going to get me to accept that when I am told overwise by people trying to live in Providence Rodj. As long as SF keep getting shot at by random organisations we've never met before and are only shooting at us because the CVA Red List tells them to shoot at us then I'm going to keep up this line of attack on your expressed principles and false claim to be a "free" region. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.23 16:42:00 - [307] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 23/01/2008 16:43:39 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake I'll ignore the first part of your post as it seems that no amount of telling you otherwise will get you to accept that the CVA don't force anyone to adopt their standings. No amount of CVA propaganda is going to get me to accept that when I am told overwise by people trying to live in Providence Rodj. As long as SF keep getting shot at by random organisations we've never met before and are only shooting at us because the CVA Red List tells them to shoot at us then I'm going to keep up this line of attack on your expressed principles and false claim to be a "free" region. Perhaps they just read your rubbish and decide that since they can shoot you, they will? That would seem to be the ultimate expression of freespace ideals, after all. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 16:53:00 - [308] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Janu Hull snipped general commentary Could I be a pain and ask you to answer the question I asked near the bottom of page 10 please Janu Hull. For completeness sake I would like to speak to your corporate leadership tonight just to get our standings issue settled. Okay? My corp ticker is quite prominently displayed, feel free to do your own due dilligence. As for standings, I do have a gamelife aside from my corp. My opinions of your organization are strictly my own, and I fight my own battles when the land on my doorstep. If you want to set your standings for the sake of formality, you set them to me personally.
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.23 16:59:00 - [309] Agreed, Janu Hull. No problem with that. Most people on that list are pirates let's be frank. But not all of them. UK policy has been explained widely and is purely based on RP. So we tend to make neutral into enemies in Providence. Adds to the feeling of fighting superior odds. What troubles me when seeing comments like that of Rodj blake is the total denial that force is not something equivalent to order. In German it's "die Macht des Faktischen" don't know the English translation. It means when you live in a system where a certain behaviour will bring you in trouble with the ruling power you will most certainly skip that behaviour. And vice versa. So there is no need for CVA to order someone to adopt it's standing regime. But due to the current policy de facto everyone does. I say again, that's fine with me (none of that tyrant BS, they have the right to do so). Just don't say it's free space. Because it isn't. You act accordning to your own standings regime without regarding that of CVA and you get shot sooner or later (btw nothing to do with randomly shooting people, most people tend to have a reason for their own KOS list). That's all that trouble's me. I'd call it propaganda and that would be ok, but this is OOC and I think you should set things straight here.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:04:00 - [310] Originally by: Kabajashi San What troubles me when seeing comments like that of Rodj blake is the total denial that force is not something equivalent to order. In German it's "die Macht des Faktischen" don't know the English translation. It means when you live in a system where a certain behaviour will bring you in trouble with the ruling power you will most certainly skip that behaviour. And vice versa. I see what you're saying, and you're right. I believe a reasonable translation would be "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." If I'm a guest in their space, it would probably behoove me, as a pilot who wants to continue working there, to behave in a manner that won't ****'em off.

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:06:00 - [311] Originally by: Rodj Blake Perhaps they just read your press releases and decide that since they can shoot you, they will? CAN in this case meaning because CVA provide them with the RED List and they are only allowed to shoot things on the Red list (regardless of any previous experience or interaction in space). You describing this process of absolute dictation over the terms of interaction as any sort of an expression of "freespace" is laughable Rodj. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:10:00 - [312] Originally by: Janu Hull My corp ticker is quite prominently displayed, feel free to do your own due dilligence. As for standings, I do have a gamelife aside from my corp. My opinions of your organization are strictly my own, and I fight my own battles when the land on my doorstep. If you want to set your standings for the sake of formality, you set them to me personally. I did actually have a look last night but I couldn't see any corporate officers listed on your ingame identity page, no links to forums, no public channels and no general information as to how to identify or contact these people. We are not in the habit of setting standings to individuals Janu Hull. The reality is that IF you are going to fire on our alliance in space and IF your corp/alliance officers are prepared to back your decision to do this then we'll be setting Terra Incognita and Dark Matter Coalition Red in exchange. So I'll ask again. Could you give me the name of your CEO (active in game) OR diplomats who can give me a clear answer on this issue? Much appreciated. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:13:00 - [313] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake Perhaps they just read your press releases and decide that since they can shoot you, they will? CAN in this case meaning because CVA provide them with the RED List and they are only allowed to shoot things on the Red list (regardless of any previous experience or interaction in space). You describing this process of absolute dictation over the terms of interaction as any sort of an expression of "freespace" is laughable Rodj. You're seeing a lot of red, perhaps the rose colored glasses should come off? The Deliverance list isn't a hit list, its an avoid list. They're not telling people to go hunt you down, they're telling ratters and miners to stay the barking hell out of your way or they'll likely lose their ships. It cannot be distilled down any more simply than that.
Ayari Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:22:00 - [314] Personally, I'd be interested to know how Star Fraction would implement 'freespace', and how it would offer incentives to residents to be NRDS rather than just devolving back to NBSI. If CVA took hostiles that happen to be NRDS off the list given to neutrals, would that change anything? Or do you have a problem with CVA even maintaining a list at all? Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:22:00 - [315] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/01/2008 17:26:28 Originally by: Janu Hull The Deliverance list isn't a hit list, its an avoid list. They're not telling people to go hunt you down, they're telling ratters and miners to stay the barking hell out of your way or they'll likely lose their ships. It cannot be distilled down any more simply than that. When you tell a corporation or alliance to set certain entities -10KOS then individuals within those organizations will fire on those targets. This is the way of eve and it is indeed very simple. This Red List has the effect of making everyone the CVA admit to Providence set hostile status to everyone the CVA do not approve of. In the specific case of Star Fraction it has the additional effect of making NRDS corps and alliances set mutual hostile status to other NRDS alliances and CVA is the only entity in Eve at this point who do this. The reason this issue is never satisfactorily resolved is that CVA (and supporters) is trying to claim black is white on this issue. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the lie Janu Hull. The reality is that corporations and alliances setting other corporations and alliances -10KOS will come into conflict with those other entities. Everyone knows this. At this stage I really don't even understand what impels you to argue the point that you've already admitted in the past pages is entirely proven against your initial claim. And would you kindly provide your CEO/diplomatic staff contact details please. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:26:00 - [316] Originally by: Ayari If CVA took hostiles that happen to be NRDS off the list given to neutrals, would that change anything? It would show that the CVA were capable of some honesty and would demonstrate that they are not primarily interested in using neutrals as a convenient meat shields against their own specific political enemies. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:26:00 - [317] Originally by: Janu Hull I believe a reasonable translation would be "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." If I'm a guest in their space, it would probably behoove me, as a pilot who wants to continue working there, to behave in a manner that won't ****'em off. Exactly, and that does NOT equal "freespace", which is what CVA keeps insisting. Rome wasn't free, Gaul under Rome wasn't free, Providence isn't free. If you can only live somewhere under someone else's rules then it isn't freespace. Not sure why there was contention over that point but it seems people can agree on that now.
Reash Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:47:00 - [318] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/01/2008 17:26:28 Originally by: Janu Hull The Deliverance list isn't a hit list, its an avoid list. They're not telling people to go hunt you down, they're telling ratters and miners to stay the barking hell out of your way or they'll likely lose their ships. It cannot be distilled down any more simply than that. When you tell a corporation or alliance to set certain entities -10KOS then individuals within those organizations will fire on those targets. This is the way of eve and it is indeed very simple. This Red List has the effect of making everyone the CVA admit to Providence set hostile status to everyone the CVA do not approve of. In the specific case of Star Fraction it has the additional effect of making NRDS corps and alliances set mutual hostile status to other NRDS alliances and CVA is the only entity in Eve at this point who do this. The reason this issue is never satisfactorily resolved is that CVA (and supporters) is trying to claim black is white on this issue. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the lie Janu Hull. The reality is that corporations and alliances setting other corporations and alliances -10KOS will come into conflict with those other entities. Everyone knows this. At this stage I really don't even understand what impels you to argue the point that you've already admitted in the past pages is entirely proven against your initial claim. And would you kindly provide your CEO/diplomatic staff contact details please. I think you are confusing neutrals with allies here (still). Not sure how many times we have to say it, but we do not force neutrals to shoot our KOS list....or even set standings to those on our KOS list, neutral entities can come and go, if they shoot a neutral the reason is investigated and action taken depending on circumstances. You are fine to disagree with the way we set standings, but please stop trying to tell us how our standing system works, we know how it works, you obviously do not, please disagree with how it works for the correct reasons. ----------------------- Auctoritan Syndicate Director
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:50:00 - [319] Edited by: Janu Hull on 23/01/2008 17:50:13 Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/01/2008 17:26:28 Originally by: Janu Hull The Deliverance list isn't a hit list, its an avoid list. They're not telling people to go hunt you down, they're telling ratters and miners to stay the barking hell out of your way or they'll likely lose their ships. It cannot be distilled down any more simply than that. When you tell a corporation or alliance to set certain entities -10KOS then individuals within those organizations will fire on those targets. This is the way of eve and it is indeed very simple. This Red List has the effect of making everyone the CVA admit to Providence set hostile status to everyone the CVA do not approve of. In the specific case of Star Fraction it has the additional effect of making NRDS corps and alliances set mutual hostile status to other NRDS alliances and CVA is the only entity in Eve at this point who do this. The reason this issue is never satisfactorily resolved is that CVA (and supporters) is trying to claim black is white on this issue. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the lie Janu Hull. The reality is that corporations and alliances setting other corporations and alliances -10KOS will come into conflict with those other entities. Everyone knows this. At this stage I really don't even understand what impels you to argue the point that you've already admitted in the past pages is entirely proven against your initial claim. And would you kindly provide your CEO/diplomatic staff contact details please. I stand here offended! I, an individual, in defiance of the memes of corporation or alliance law, stand before you and engage your organization as a free spirit exercising his own will, and you hide from me behind the artifice of standings and diplomacy?! I stain thee with the mark of hypocracy! Where is your great cause to liberate the human spirit from the bindings of rules and regulations when you insult a kindred spirit in such a manner? How can you possibly stand upon your supposed moral high ground and make statements like that? Oh, how far have you fallen, Star Fraction, that your leaders could possibly lose sight of their goal when it stands before them in an open forum? Shame, Jade, SHAME!
Ayari Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:55:00 - [320] Does the concept of 'freespace' rely on NRDS, or does it operate independently of Rules of Engagement? And if it does operate without taking Rules of Engagement into account, what makes 'freespace' any different from Syndicate? Caldari Independent Navy Reserve

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:58:00 - [321] Originally by: Reash I think you are confusing neutrals with allies here (still). Not sure how many times we have to say it, but we do not force neutrals to shoot our KOS list....or even set standings to those on our KOS list, neutral entities can come and go, if they shoot a neutral the reason is investigated and action taken depending on circumstances. As I said to Garreck and others earlier. As long as SF keeps getting aggressed by previously neutral corps that cite the only reason for their aggression is that they have been asked to adopt the CVA standings list then I'm going to keep accusing you of manipulating neutrals into fighting other NRDS entities in the CVA's own tight political interest. All your words here mean nothing compared to the actuality of what happens in space in providence and I have seen literally dozens of previously neutral corporations and alliances turn hostile to SF purely because they are operating on your Red List. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 18:00:00 - [322] Originally by: Kelsin Exactly, and that does NOT equal "freespace", which is what CVA keeps insisting. I don't think a CVA pilot has mentioned "freespace" yet, though I could be mistaken. We have, however, made a fact-based case that CVA has encouraged a sense of community in Providence and created, by far (not by some narrow margin,) the most open policy region of 0.0 in Eve. This is done through a complex, shared, added-to-by-others, and yes, CVA sponsored, Red List. This is done through complex (and as mentioned, tolerant) diplomacy. This is done by asking Providence residents to help us, pointing out the risks, and sometimes taking "no" for an answer without violent reciprocation on our part. This is done by accepting the help of those who do want to take risks. If Star Fraction were merely making the case that "Providence does not run under the Freespace system Star Fraction wishes to see in place!" then this discussion would've been considerably shorter. We could've left it at "fine, come and take it and make it your ideal." So long as Jade insists on repeating lies and mis/disinformation about CVA's policies in Providence, there will be CVA representatives (and apparently a good number of Providence residents themselves) saying "no, it's not like that."
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 18:08:00 - [323] Originally by: Ayari Does the concept of 'freespace' rely on NRDS, or does it operate independently of Rules of Engagement? The way Providence works, I'd call NRDS one of the cornerstones of it being "freespace". The thing these Fraction nutters haven't gotten through their heads is that there's nothing stopping anyone from coming to Providence to do whatever they want in defiance of CVA, God only knows Terra Incognita, Ushra'khan, and Einherjar Rising make careers out of it. What separates Providence from NPC 0.0 space is that when the locals rally to defend it, you're likely going to see fleets of ships made up of pilots from a half dozen or more independent and otherwise unconnected corporations coming after you. There's one hell of a sense of community from the neutral tenants, without the formalities of a NAP, in the region that makes it completely unique in this game (that I've seen so far). What makes it "free" is the fact that anyone willing to play nice with others is welcome to join in. VERY little politicking and almost no "I don't like them so I'm not ganging with them" going on. When the call for x's goes up, the ticker next to your name means d*ck. What benefits one, benefits everyone involved. Its like the Minutemen of colonial America.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 18:13:00 - [324] Originally by: Jade Constantine As long as SF keeps getting aggressed by previously neutral corps that cite the only reason for their aggression is that they have been asked to adopt the CVA standings list then I'm going to keep accusing you of manipulating neutrals into fighting other NRDS entities in the CVA's own tight political interest. Hey, if you want to plug your fingers in your ears and shout at the top of your lungs that you don't believe us and we're oppressive and manipulative etc based on the words of a misinformed pilot, that's your own look-out. Frankly it wouldn't surprise me if you convoed multiple pilots until you got the misinformed answer you were looking for and ran with it, but that's pure speculation on my part.
Ayari Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.01.23 18:14:00 - [325] I'm referring specifically to Star Fraction's concept of 'Freespace', rather than the system currently in place in Providence. Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 18:17:00 - [326] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/01/2008 18:20:13 Originally by: Garreck I don't think a CVA pilot has mentioned "freespace" yet, though I could be mistaken. In the eyes of the greater community there is no difference between CVA and the CVA pets in Providence or Amarrian bloc supporters in the general Amarrian RP community. Hence to see Rodj Blake making claims about "freespace ethics" in Providence will certainly grant the appearance of CVA making this kind of entirely erroneous claim in respects to the standings enclosurist regime in force there. Quote: We have, however, made a fact-based case that CVA has encouraged a sense of community in Providence and created, by far (not by some narrow margin,) the most open policy region of 0.0 in Eve. You are marginally more open than any other 0.0 NSBI alliance. That I'll grant you. And this purely because 1-2 neutral pilots will generally be able to pass through providence without either being engaged by your ships or forced specifically into your standings regime. Where those pilots would be destroyed by other NBSI 0.0 entities you guys will let them pass as long as they keep moving and pay no real interest in the wars happening there. That is the "upside" of the CVA's policies in Providence. The downside of course: Quote: This is done through a complex, shared, added-to-by-others, and yes, CVA sponsored, Red List. This is done through complex (and as mentioned, tolerant) diplomacy. This is done by asking Providence residents to help us, pointing out the risks, and sometimes taking "no" for an answer without violent reciprocation on our part. This is done by accepting the help of those who do want to take risks. Its a Kill on Sight list with CVA having the ultimate power of veto. Any larger or long term resident of Providence is given this list "for their own security" and encouraged to set all negatives on the list -10 from their own entities. They are sometimes left to their decision whether to shoot at -10's in space (obviously very few choose not too) but sometimes they are given the distinct impression they must shoot the entities appearing on the list and consider all such corporations and alliances to be "pirates" to be reported in the shared intel channels. And of course, no "guest" or "resident" in Providence has the right to set its own -10s outside of the remit of that list regardless of aggression received against their corporations or alliances elsewhere in eve. Standings enclosure both ways is very clear. Quote: If Star Fraction were merely making the case that "Providence does not run under the Freespace system Star Fraction wishes to see in place!" then this discussion would've been considerably shorter. We could've left it at "fine, come and take it and make it your ideal." If you are prepared to admit here and now that CVA runs a standings enclosurist authoritarian regime in Providence that does not recognize the freedom of individual entities to set their own standings and conduct their own independent diplomacy and settlements then we can certainly agree. The problem is Garreck you are trying to market Providence as something it is not and manipulate neutral corps into setting other NRDS entities -10KOS for your own selfish political purposes. Quote: So long as Jade insists on repeating lies and mis/disinformation about CVA's policies in Providence, there will be CVA representatives (and apparently a good number of Providence residents themselves) saying "no, it's not like that." Then I imagine our threads will never be short of robust discussion and It will be quite easy to keep the debate in the public eye. I for one am very happy to keep the CVA political activities in Providence firmly in the spotlight of public opinion. When we get to the stage that your leadership finally admits you are simply running a top down enforced standings regime with CVA dominance then we'll all be happy. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 18:33:00 - [327] Originally by: Jade Constantine I for one am very happy to keep the CVA political activities in Providence firmly in the spotlight of public opinion. Likewise. The longer you continue to push this standings enclosurism stuff, particularly as applies to CVA of all organizations, an alliance that has long been scoffed and even attacked for its policies which help weaker organizations (yes, apparently helping n00bs is so offensive to some organizations as to warrant direct in-game conflict) the more you'll marginalize yourself in the public eye.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 18:36:00 - [328] Originally by: Janu Hull The way Providence works, I'd call NRDS one of the cornerstones of it being "freespace". Garreck, it may have been comments like this by a non-CVA pilot that I was thinking of, apologies if I mis-attributed it. NRDS is indeed important to the concept of freespace, but NRDS by itself is just rules of engagement - what is vital to the philosophy of freespace is HOW you set your reds. Star Fraction continually impresses me by the effort it puts into keeping detailed and accurate aggression logs. We know WHY we are shooting someone and we never ever set a red without logged aggression or diplomatic logs of intent to aggress. If you adopt someone else's Red list, you don't know why you're shooting the reds. If you are only fighting because of someone else's list - you're just a meatshield. Community is all well and good but your system is dragging apolitical neutrals into a political war. As was brought up in an SHC thread, if your list is really just a suggestion it would make far more sense to set everyone on it at +5, 0 or -5 and leave the +/-10s to individual corps to decide whilst maintaining the 'warning' factor for new entities that would like a list of 'likely friends and enemies'.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 18:48:00 - [329] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/01/2008 18:48:42 Originally by: Garreck Likewise. The longer you continue to push this standings enclosurism stuff, particularly as applies to CVA of all organizations, an alliance that has long been scoffed and even attacked for its policies which help weaker organizations (yes, apparently helping n00bs is so offensive to some organizations as to warrant direct in-game conflict) the more you'll marginalize yourself in the public eye. Are you back to the "please don't attack poor little Providence we're just full of novice-helping innocent guys" line again this week then Garreck? Because on reading the in-game news it sounded like you'd become serious players fresh from a great "victory" over an aggressor that most commentators reckoned amongst the most significant mobile offensive forces in Eve. The reality is you are a very smart and capable territorial power that has all the right NAPs with Coalition powers on your borders to gain overwhelming fleet support when needed and to ensure no problems with neighbors besides. You've even found a way to rebrand NBSI as NRDS and ensure its every bit as tightly controlled due to the central standings list and absolute restriction of free setting of standings by corporations and alliances in your sphere of influence. Providence works well for YOU Garreck, it ensures you have a never-ending stream of clueless neutral entities sleepwalking into hostilies with your rivals and bulking up your fleets. I never once said you guys were not the smartest most manipulative political connivers on the block. But where you go wrong is trying to claim yourselves whiter than white and all this mealy-mouthed doublespeak about whether a Red List is really a Red List, whether KOS means Kill on Sight or Run on Sight, whether its a CVA list or a Deliverance list, whether you force people to adopt it or whether they just "choose naturally" to adopt it. Whether you lie about the status of NRDS enemies or not. Whether CVA people in Citadal describe non pirates as "pirates", whether your members claim Providence is freespace or just a protectorate tyranny. Your weakness then Garreck is in the confused babble of voices that speak up about matters Providence without ever giving a clear or honest answer to some very basic questions. Reality is Garreck we're fighting you because you tell lies to people. We're fighting you because you manipulate neutrals into shooting neutrals. We're fighting you because you claim to be an open region while restricting all rights to independent standings. We're fighting you because you're too deceitful to admit you've asked people to set us Red. We're fighting you because you needed Goonswarm to hold your space. Its all pretty simple at the end of the day. Everyone needs a cause and CVA is the most manipulative and cunning villain -state in the vast tapestry of stars at this moment. Star Fraction makes its name shooting corrupt imperialist regimes and that old chap ... thats you that is. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:29:00 - [330] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake Perhaps they just read your press releases and decide that since they can shoot you, they will? CAN in this case meaning because CVA provide them with the RED List and they are only allowed to shoot things on the Red list (regardless of any previous experience or interaction in space). You describing this process of absolute dictation over the terms of interaction as any sort of an expression of "freespace" is laughable Rodj. In which case I refer you back to my earlier comment which you failed to answer. By limiting who people are allowed to shoot, the CVA protects space for usage by everyone rather than those with the biggest guns. The CVA offers people the chance to dip their toes into the waters of 0.0. You offer them anarchy. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.

Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:33:00 - [331] Originally by: Kelsin If you adopt someone else's Red list, you don't know why you're shooting the reds. If you are only fighting because of someone else's list - you're just a meatshield. When I asked for and received the Deliverance list, I knew what I was getting. A list of organizations and individuals who had attacked neutrals in Providence in the past. These were bad people, they had attacked people like me. If I wasn't careful (and sometimes I wasn't), I would be attacked (and sometimes I was attacked) by them (and lost many a ship in the process).
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:35:00 - [332] Originally by: Rodj Blake The CVA offers people the chance to dip their toes into the waters of 0.0. You offer them anarchy. The CVA offers golden chains which promise safety if they give up their freedom to make their own choices. Star Fraction offers to respect the neutrality of neutral entities and judges them solely on their actions. Put that way its actually very close to your RP ideology as well Rodj. CVA is simply Amarrian slavers doing their thing. I really find it very difficult to understand why you are so ashamed of your nature. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:36:00 - [333] Originally by: Jade Constantine The CVA offers golden chains which promise safety if they give up their freedom to make their own choices. And its some stylin' blingbling they offer, yo.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:37:00 - [334] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/01/2008 18:20:13 Originally by: Garreck I don't think a CVA pilot has mentioned "freespace" yet, though I could be mistaken. In the eyes of the greater community there is no difference between CVA and the CVA pets in Providence or Amarrian bloc supporters in the general Amarrian RP community. Hence to see Rodj Blake making claims about "freespace ethics" in Providence will certainly grant the appearance of CVA making this kind of entirely erroneous claim in respects to the standings enclosurist regime in force there. I'll use whatever language I see fit, subject to basic rules of common decency. Actually, now that I think about it, my view of freespace is somewhat like my view of free speech - you can say (or do in the case of freespace) anything you want as long you don't impede the ability of other people to do likewise. I think that most sensible people would agree that this is a reasonable state of affairs. Of course, your definition of freespace allows people to remove freedom from others, which means that freespace is anything but free for those at the bottom of the pile. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:38:00 - [335] Originally by: Janu Hull When I asked for and received the Deliverance list, I knew what I was getting. A list of organizations and individuals who had attacked neutrals in Providence in the past. These were bad people, they had attacked people like me. If I wasn't careful (and sometimes I wasn't), I would be attacked (and sometimes I was attacked) by them (and lost many a ship in the process). Of course thats the point. What you got was a list with some people who attack neutrals and some people who do not. SF was on that list and we do not shoot neutrals. When there is one false listing in that standings set then everything is open to question. The CVA's Red List is not a list of hostiles who will routinely shoot neutrals, it is a list of their political enemies whom they maintain an interest into provoking "neutrals" to fight. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:40:00 - [336] Originally by: Janu Hull And its some stylin' blingbling they offer, yo. Indeed. Despite its imperfections, Providence is a far easier place for neutrals to get the hang of 0.0 in than Venal ever was when the NVA were running things there. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:45:00 - [337] Originally by: Rodj Blake Despite its imperfections, Providence is a far easier place for neutrals to get the hang of 0.0 in than Venal ever was when the NVA were running things there. Actually thats pretty much untrue. Back when we were running the NVA as a freespace entity it was very open for corporations to come out and experience. It was only when NVA got betrayed by the closet imperialists in its roster that border closures and standings enclosure came to haunt the dream. "Neutrals" in Providence are forced to adopt the CVA's standings list and that makes them the target of other neutrals and pressed into service as meatshields to the CVA's political interests. By force-feeding these corporations the notion of a -10KOS SF you guarantee they are going to foolishly aggress our ships and then get hunted. Back in the day when I was on the original NVA council we wouldn't force anyone to set another NRDS entity hostile for our own political purposes. On that score CVA is indeed a deeply manipulative and deceitful entity. That is very clear. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Centra Spike Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:53:00 - [338] Edited by: Centra Spike on 23/01/2008 19:54:25 Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Kelsin If you adopt someone else's Red list, you don't know why you're shooting the reds. If you are only fighting because of someone else's list - you're just a meatshield. When I asked for and received the Deliverance list, I knew what I was getting. A list of organizations and individuals who had attacked neutrals in Providence in the past. These were bad people, they had attacked people like me. If I wasn't careful (and sometimes I wasn't), I would be attacked (and sometimes I was attacked) by them (and lost many a ship in the process). It's not only a list of people who have shot neutrals, it is a list of people who CVA have set KOS. This KOS list includes people who have shot neutrals for no apparent reason (e.g. pirates) but it also includes political enemies, territorial enemies, etc. Simply accepting this list without understanding why certain individuals, corporations, or alliances on it causes two parties who have no grievance with each other to engage in hostilities. People take this list and operate on the assumption that a person on this list will shoot them. This may be true in some cases, but not all. If are new to Providence, with a completely clean slate: Yes, a pirate corp set -10 on the CVA list will probably shoot you. No, Star Fraction set -10 on the CVA list will not shoot you. But were both on the same list. See the problem? EDIT: In the time it took me to write my post, 6 more went in...yeesh. >Truth conquers all chains.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:56:00 - [339] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake Despite its imperfections, Providence is a far easier place for neutrals to get the hang of 0.0 in than Venal ever was when the NVA were running things there. Actually thats pretty much untrue. Back when we were running the NVA as a freespace entity it was very open for corporations to come out and experience. It was only when NVA got betrayed by the closet imperialists in its roster that border closures and standings enclosure came to haunt the dream. Yes, they were free to come and go, until some people with big guns turned up and the region was closed to neutrals. Something which the CVA has never done, despite regular attacks. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:56:00 - [340] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Janu Hull When I asked for and received the Deliverance list, I knew what I was getting. A list of organizations and individuals who had attacked neutrals in Providence in the past. These were bad people, they had attacked people like me. If I wasn't careful (and sometimes I wasn't), I would be attacked (and sometimes I was attacked) by them (and lost many a ship in the process). Of course thats the point. What you got was a list with some people who attack neutrals and some people who do not. SF was on that list and we do not shoot neutrals. When there is one false listing in that standings set then everything is open to question. The CVA's Red List is not a list of hostiles who will routinely shoot neutrals, it is a list of their political enemies whom they maintain an interest into provoking "neutrals" to fight. You keep it up with this red list stuff. I never set an alliance on that list red until they attacked someone while I was online to see the report or had attacked me personally. Hell, I had reds on my list that weren't even on the Deliverance list. I got myself into a sc*****with IAC which I took way too far. And despite their otherwise friendly relations with CVA, they'd usually attack me on sight. I actually had to have a CVA member I was ganged with once vouch for me to an IAC group we connected with because when I showed up with the fleet, they started locking onto me. I didn't make any serious issues about it because I had no desire to make any waves for CVA. My issues as a lone newb were utterly secondary to keeping the peace in the region for the landlords. That's not subjugation, that's respect. Respect for CVA as my host, and even respect for IAC because the whole mess that set them hostile to me was mostly my own damned fault. That right there is the grease that keeps the engine working. Respect. Respect for other neutrals, respect for the local sovreign alliances, respect for the threat people on the Deliverance list represent. Fail to respect any one of those three elements, and your time in Providence is going to be real painful. Its that damned simple.

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:04:00 - [341] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/01/2008 20:04:21 Originally by: Janu Hull You keep it up with this red list stuff. I never set an alliance on that list red until they attacked someone while I was online to see the report or had attacked me personally. Why are we on "your" red list? "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:08:00 - [342] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/01/2008 20:04:21 Originally by: Janu Hull You keep it up with this red list stuff. I never set an alliance on that list red until they attacked someone while I was online to see the report or had attacked me personally. Why are we on "your" red list? Because you represent a threat to an alliance I respect. Because you represent a threat to a region of space and a community that made me a very wealthy solo ratter. And most importantly, because you're even more annoying as Jade than you were as Jasmine.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:11:00 - [343] Originally by: Janu Hull Because you represent a threat to an alliance I respect. Because you represent a threat to a region of space and a community that made me a very wealthy solo ratter. So not because we actually aggressed you then. Good, glad we cleared up the issue that you (and indeed the CVA) can put neutrals who respect neutrals on their Kill list because its politically expedient to do so. When discussing the CVA Red list lets make sure we don't ever make the mistake of describing it as a list of "hostiles" again okay? Its a list of political targets since it has SF on it. Nice to clear that up. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Reash Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:12:00 - [344] Edited by: Reash on 23/01/2008 20:12:40 Edited by: Reash on 23/01/2008 20:12:17 Originally by: Jade Constantine "Neutrals" in Providence are forced to adopt the CVA's standings list and that makes them the target of other neutrals and pressed into service as meatshields to the CVA's political interests. By force-feeding these corporations the notion of a -10KOS SF you guarantee they are going to foolishly aggress our ships and then get hunted. Can anybody write me a Macro so that i can automatically correct this, think a few people are beginning to risk repetitive strain injury from correcting you on this point Jade. But seen as it hasnt sunk in yet, Neutrals do not have to adopt the CVA KOS list and are free to come and go as long as they do not attack any CVA or residents of CVA space (including neutrals) without a valid reason. Again in bold for your benefit Neutrals do not have to adopt CVA standings and are free to move around our space as long as they do not attack residents or neutrals without a valid reason. Hope that helps. ----------------------- Auctoritan Syndicate Director
Scagga Laebetrovo Five Pioneers	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:12:00 - [345] Originally by: Jade Constantine By force-feeding these corporations the notion of a -10KOS SF you guarantee they are going to foolishly aggress our ships and then get hunted. .... On that score CVA is indeed a deeply manipulative and deceitful entity. That is very clear. Have you seen evidence that corporations have been 'force-fed' -10 SF standings? Also, with the points you are asserting, I can't see the CVA as a deeply manipulative or even a deceitful entity. Can you explain these two points please? My other question was about the SF NRDS policy. You said if people shoot your allies, but not yourself, you will put no reaction into effect against them? Is this the correct understanding I am gleaning? I anticipate your explanations. San Matari Official forums
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:13:00 - [346] For someone who claims to promote individual initiative, you sure as hell seem unable to recognize it...
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:36:00 - [347] Originally by: Janu Hull My issues as a lone newb were utterly secondary to keeping the peace in the region for the landlords. That's not subjugation, that's respect. Respect for CVA as my host, and even respect for IAC because the whole mess that set them hostile to me was mostly my own damned fault. That right there is the grease that keeps the engine working. Respect. Respect for other neutrals, respect for the local sovreign alliances, respect for the threat people on the Deliverance list represent. Fail to respect any one of those three elements, and your time in Providence is going to be real painful. Its that damned simple. This is a potato-potahto way of saying that the ruling party in Providence expects their rules to be followed because it's 'their' space, and there will be consequences to those who disobey. Which is fine if that's your point, but know that that is what we're fighting against. Our vision of space doesn't have landlords or red lists. It doesn't have free pod pilots spending their blood and sweat, time and money to fight someone else's war. Our vision of space doesn't have borders where pirates on one side are the police on the other. Our vision of space is one where every pilot and corp is free of the territorialist memes that force them into conflict with one another to line the pockets of a fat, greedy standing power. Where individuals stand up for themselves and own their freedom instead of selling it off for a false security. And that can't begin until those who knowingly exploit the psychological remnants of imperialism are torn from their golden thrones and we melt them down for use as ammunition to continue the fight. CVA is trying to create an empire and laughing all the way to the bank while neutrals unwittingly act as front line cannon fodder. That's why we need an insurgency. It's the only thing standing in the way of the formation of a new peasant class in Providence.
bazzed Black Arrows Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:43:00 - [348] Hello Jade So my english isnt the best.. so i'll keep this so simple as possible: - the kos list says who are kill on sights in providence - when somebody attacks a neutral or cva/holder then they'll come on the kos list - neutral's are allowed to shoot on Corps/Alliances which are listed on the KOS List - NOBODY is forced to shoot/help/fight with us - NOBODY will get kicked/attacked or whatever when he does not shoot on this "Kos entrys" Neutrals can help with fighting KOS entry... but this is abo****ly "Voluntarily". There are no penaltys or whatever when somebody says: guys.. just ratting/mining/what ever here... this reds are your bussines. But many Neutrals help us... do you know why? Becouse the like what we're doing here.. and enjoy the stay here in providence. Call it however you like... ok its not Freespace by your definition... so what?who cares? Its CVA/Holders Space open for neutrals and friends to have fun, enjoy the stay and make ISK in providence... do whatever they want expect Attacking CVA/Holders or Neutrals. And no.. you're not a neutral and not a friend.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:54:00 - [349] Edited by: Janu Hull on 23/01/2008 20:54:14 Originally by: Kelsin Our vision of space doesn't have landlords or red lists. Heh, great, a freefire zone like the Great Wildlands, Stain and whatnot. Just lovely. Quote: It doesn't have free pod pilots spending their blood and sweat, time and money to fight someone else's war. Oh, I dunno, depending on how you look at it, a chance to fly with these guys is decent practice for the days when a pilot starts flying in 0.0 alliances as an active member. Its a great practice field for the real thing. Quote: Our vision of space doesn't have borders where pirates on one side are the police on the other. Our vision of space is one where every pilot and corp is free of the territorialist memes that force them into conflict with one another to line the pockets of a fat, greedy standing power. Where individuals stand up for themselves and own their freedom instead of selling it off for a false security. So this is your vision? Linkage Pass, thanks.
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.23 21:45:00 - [350] I hate to repeat myself just as you do, Reash. No, people don't have to adopt the KOS list. The thing is if they don't watch it very closely they will end up on it. And of course if they are not totally ignorant they WILL adopt it over time. Matter of fact. So please don't give me the crap about that it is just a proposition or something like that. You know better. It is imposed on Providence residents by the power of facts. The whole system is there to protect CVA interests. Why is that so hard to admit OOC? I mean they do a lot to protect other holders such as Sev, they can expect something in return. Just be honest, for Gods sake. The problem is not with some newbie first entering 0.0. The problem is with anyone living there for longer than a few days. And to Janu Hull and bazzed: The problem is that it is not only people shooting on neutrals on that KOS list. There are pirates in that list, yes, but not only. Some alliances such as SF or UK for example are on it for pure political reasons (I don't have that list, there are probably more). Now I think that's ok for UK (I mean in the end we made Providence free fire, everything else would be stupid). But there are entities who don't like to be shot at by complete strangers just because they have a disagreement with CVA. I mean it is understandable, is it not?

Nek Tuomatta Advanced Combat Machines and Equipment Independent Faction	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:04:00 - [351] Originally by: Kabajashi San ...people don't have to adopt the KOS list. That's pretty much awl that is relevant dude. That's exactly, 100% exactly what the CVA people are saying. Jade is saying it's forced, CVA are saying it isn't. Making predictions of other people's behaviour "oh they will adopt it soon" is not only pretentious but probably offensive to true neutrals out there minding their business while you follow your aim to destroy the environment they enjoy. You are now reading my sig! Originally by: Gaius Kador Nothing surprises me as to the lengths Star Fraction will go to push their propaganda on the public masses.
Vantras Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:04:00 - [352] Having provided security in our common defense channels for years I can say these are my words when someone links a pilot in chat that is an enemy of the CVA. "that corp is red to the cva" Thats it..thats the total of my response. Ive made it literally 1000's of times. I dont view Star Fraction or the most hardened -10 pirate as in anyway different. The answer I would give is exactly the same "that corp/alliance is red to the cva". Not red to you, not red to Providence, not red to all people who respect the law-just quite simply-Red to the CVA. No time in my three years in Providence have I EVER told anyone how to set thier standings-its not even something I could think of. Because quite simply I dont care. "Red to the CVA"...thats the answer-the pilot-is able to <gasp> MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to whether he wants to engage, run and hide, scout etc. The only thing we will not accept is neutral residents or Providence actively assisting "Red to CVA's"...what they do otherwise, with thier standings etc. is thier own choice. I know it might be shocking that folks come to these forums, read the walls of text, and somehow conclude that Star Fraction is prefectly worth shooting, all by themselves. But I can assure you thats how I as an active pilot, often commander feel about it. Personally Id just as soon have most folks stay out of the SF conflict. Its hard enough to get something to shoot at when its just the CVA nevermind a bunch of good hearted, residents chasing about. Its really rather simple. "Red to the CVA". There is no question that our success in the region has led to literally thousands of residents settling in the area. The intel channels have 10x the number of people in them then they did when I arrived years ago. So I am sure there are some pilots that dont know the full story or have heard a wrong version of it. But as a relatively senior combat pilot active in the defense of Providence and very active in the intel channels I can say that at the tip of the spear (on the battlefield) the only answer I and most of my companions ever give is "Red to the CVA" or something very similiar.
bazzed Black Arrows Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:09:00 - [353] Originally by: Kabajashi San And to Janu Hull and bazzed: The problem is that it is not only people shooting on neutrals on that KOS list. There are pirates in that list, yes, but not only. Some alliances such as SF or UK for example are on it for pure political reasons (I don't have that list, there are probably more). Now I think that's ok for UK (I mean in the end we made Providence free fire, everything else would be stupid). But there are entities who don't like to be shot at by complete strangers just because they have a disagreement with CVA. I mean it is understandable, is it not? Hey Kabajashi yes and again: - when somebody attacks a neutral or cva/holder then they'll come on the kos list - neutral's are allowed to shoot on Corps/Alliances which are listed on the KOS List yes they're allowed to shoot at you... (uk you attacks everybody) and sf. some really do that. and? sf says: when a neutrals attack a friend or a neutral, its not my bussines we'll not help/agress the neutral. we say: when somebody attacks a friend or a neutral, you can help him. when you dont like that.. then let it be. nobody force you to do that in providence. so i do not prescribe how sf has to handle do their thing on friendship... so they could also NOT care about ours. greets bazzed
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:11:00 - [354] Originally by: Kabajashi San And to Janu Hull and bazzed: The problem is that it is not only people shooting on neutrals on that KOS list. There are pirates in that list, yes, but not only. Some alliances such as SF or UK for example are on it for pure political reasons (I don't have that list, there are probably more). Now I think that's ok for UK (I mean in the end we made Providence free fire, everything else would be stupid). But there are entities who don't like to be shot at by complete strangers just because they have a disagreement with CVA. I mean it is understandable, is it not? Well, just to be fair about it. Ushra'khan shot me first. It was a gatecamp four jumps out from 9UY just after U'K lost the station. Mixed group of Einherjar and U'K pilots. It was a very clean fight, I actually shot back, and didn't do overly embarassingly, considering it was a ratting fit I was flying. The U'K pilot said it directly in local that the reason I was attacked was having "CVA Friendly" in my bio. Now, as you called it, the Deliverance list tends to get adopted by the auspices of simple reality. That was my reality; your alliance mates took the political situation in the region and made it my problem. Just so we're clear, I don't have a personal problem with that. After I was told why I was attacked, I simply said "understood" (I managed to escape with my pod intact) and moved on with life. Hell, I actually enjoyed the idea of being a part of the mix out there in some small way. The other side of it is, none of us neutrals ever got into scuffles with people on the Deliverance list just because they showed up in local. Honestly, most of us just wanted to rat and mine in peace. The ONLY time we ever ganged up was when someone who was reported in the area had actually attacked someone. Whether it was a CVA pilot or a neutral wasn't a huge issue. Never, not once, was there ever a call in the intel channel to get a group together to go attack you guys or the Star Fraction or any of CVA's other opponents just for grins and giggles. We only x-ed up if there was a specific reason. A gatecamp or a roaming gang we think we had the numbers to disperse (not necessarily destroy, mind you, we were more enthusiastic than effective, at times). I won't sit here and say never was someone on there for political reasons attacked without provocation. All I know is that for the times I was out there, it wasn't like that. No one was subject to a response gang unless there was an immediate attack. If someone did find themselves being smacked down by someone they'd never attacked before, its probably because at some point in the past, they had attacked someone somewhere in Providence, and that person was online to relate it to the channel, which upped the threat perception of the pilot. Its a bit different when you're dealing with a pilot who was in a hostile corp or alliance than if you were dealing with someone who'd picked a fight before. Why those fights were picked wasn't especially important. If they were a part of that community in the intel channel, then they were protected or avenged as best we could.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:19:00 - [355] Originally by: Janu Hull Oh, I dunno, depending on how you look at it, a chance to fly with these guys is decent practice for the days when a pilot starts flying in 0.0 alliances as an active member. Its a great practice field for the real thing. Sure, it's great practice for being a real cog in a real imperialist machine. That, I'll pass on. Daring unconventional tactics fighting for a noble cause like this AAR describes beats being duped into fighting someone else's war any day.
Nek Tuomatta Advanced Combat Machines and Equipment Independent Faction	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:25:00 - [356] Edited by: Nek Tuomatta on 23/01/2008 22:25:59 Originally by: Kelsin Daring unconventional tactics fighting for a noble cause like this AAR describes beats being duped into fighting someone else's war any day. If they hadn't been a complete failure i'd agree with you You are now reading my sig! Originally by: Gaius Kador Nothing surprises me as to the lengths Star Fraction will go to push their propaganda on the public masses.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:31:00 - [357] Originally by: Kelsin Originally by: Janu Hull Oh, I dunno, depending on how you look at it, a chance to fly with these guys is decent practice for the days when a pilot starts flying in 0.0 alliances as an active member. Its a great practice field for the real thing. Sure, it's great practice for being a real cog in a real imperialist machine. That, I'll pass on. Daring unconventional tactics fighting for a noble cause like this AAR describes beats being duped into fighting someone else's war any day. Well, being that I called Providence home for a time, I'd say any war that affected it, affected me. May not be my corp name in the sovreignty slot, but damned if it wasn't a place I felt I had a stake in. Its a wonderful bond that a real sense of community brings to the table.
Reash Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:11:00 - [358] Originally by: Kabajashi San I hate to repeat myself just as you do, Reash. No, people don't have to adopt the KOS list. The thing is if they don't watch it very closely they will end up on it. And of course if they are not totally ignorant they WILL adopt it over time. Matter of fact. So please don't give me the crap about that it is just a proposition or something like that. You know better. It is imposed on Providence residents by the power of facts. The whole system is there to protect CVA interests. Why is that so hard to admit OOC? I mean they do a lot to protect other holders such as Sev, they can expect something in return. Just be honest, for Gods sake. The problem is not with some newbie first entering 0.0. The problem is with anyone living there for longer than a few days. I suppose we won;t admit it because its quite simply not true, many neutrals are free to live in providence without the use of our red list, and in fact they do. I suppose in a way the system does protect CVA interests, in that we get intel from those who do share any hostile standings with us, but at the end of the day the a random group of locals are not going to be able to do much to help defend our space in the case of a serious attack (no offense to their combat ability, just a large group of mixed corporations tends to end in failure), and the end of the day i believe the system helps neutrals more than it helps CVA. Severence (and some others) are an exception i suppose, but than thats a different topic Severence and others are not neutrals they are allies and while they do adopt more of our standings, i know for a fact they are not idential (i know this from been in a severence gang). And Kab the only entity i know of that is NRDS on our KOS list (i may be mistaken) is Star Fraction, while at first glance it seems odd they be on a red list that is handed to neutrals it has been shown that they work with NBSI entities, and therefore, are dangerous to neutals in a second hand sort of way, its more complicated i admit, but Star Fraction are still a danger to neutral entities. ----------------------- Auctoritan Syndicate Director
Nuyan Zahedi Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:13:00 - [359] Jade sounds like a broken Crass record, but then without the brilliance. My blog
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:16:00 - [360] Originally by: Reash Can anybody write me a Macro so that i can automatically correct this, think a few people are beginning to risk repetitive strain injury from correcting you on this point Jade. Maybe you could ask those curiously-named hauler residents you have plying their trade from Misaba to Mista? "I might not have meant anything by it"

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:20:00 - [361] Originally by: Reash I suppose we won;t admit it because its quite simply not true, many neutrals are free to live in providence without the use of our red list, and in fact they do. I suppose in a way the system does protect CVA interests, in that we get intel from those who do share any hostile standings with us, but at the end of the day the a random group of locals are not going to be able to do much to help defend our space in the case of a serious attack (no offense to their combat ability, just a large group of mixed corporations tends to end in failure), and the end of the day i believe the system helps neutrals more than it helps CVA. The fact remains Reash, you give this list to neutral corporations coming to settle in Providence and many of them get the impression they are expected to fire on the entities on that list. You can keep repeating it isn't so until you are blue in the face but as long as we keep getting aggressed by "neutral" corporations we've never met before we know something shady is going on and as long as we get the members of these corps saying in local chat that they are instructed to shoot us by the CVA we're going to keep calling you on this falsehood you are preaching. If you want to resolve this then all you need to do is stop telling neutrals lies about Star Fraction. Its not rocket-science. If the CVA is so high and mighty as you claim it doesn't seem to me like you actually need these hordes of ill-informed neutral rat-hunters to actually do your fighting for you - why do you continually send them against another NRDS entity by the clear practise of your standings regime? It really doesn't tie-up with your expressed intentions for your program in Providence (unless of course you've been telling fibs about that too). "I might not have meant anything by it"
Reash Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:28:00 - [362] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Reash I suppose we won;t admit it because its quite simply not true, many neutrals are free to live in providence without the use of our red list, and in fact they do. I suppose in a way the system does protect CVA interests, in that we get intel from those who do share any hostile standings with us, but at the end of the day the a random group of locals are not going to be able to do much to help defend our space in the case of a serious attack (no offense to their combat ability, just a large group of mixed corporations tends to end in failure), and the end of the day i believe the system helps neutrals more than it helps CVA. The fact remains Reash, you give this list to neutral corporations coming to settle in Providence and many of them get the impression they are expected to fire on the entities on that list. You can keep repeating it isn't so until you are blue in the face but as long as we keep getting aggressed by "neutral" corporations we've never met before we know something shady is going on and as long as we get the members of these corps saying in local chat that they are instructed to shoot us by the CVA we're going to keep calling you on this falsehood you are preaching. If you want to resolve this then all you need to do is stop telling neutrals lies about Star Fraction. Its not rocket-science. If the CVA is so high and mighty as you claim it doesn't seem to me like you actually need these hordes of ill-informed neutral rat-hunters to actually do your fighting for you - why do you continually send them against another NRDS entity by the clear practise of your standings regime? It really doesn't tie-up with your expressed intentions for your program in Providence (unless of course you've been telling fibs about that too). Your right, its not rocket science, Star Fraction has helped NBSI entitys in providence and is therefore a danger to neutrals, hense why star fraction are included in the list. I am not sure why that is so wrong? While i am not going to deny that some groups may believe they "have" to shoot. Mistakes happen, but if one of your pilots accidently shot a neutral entity would that make you NBSI? Yes mistaked happen, but the truth of the matter is that many groups in providence simply wish to help us and do adopt our KOS list, even if we go back to them and make it very clear that they dont have to have Star Fraction (or any of our list) set red to live in our space. A case happened recently (though i will mention no names) where we specifically stated they did not have to shoot any of the corporations/alliance on our red list (Star Fraction was mentioned in particular) and the reply was that they wished to help out as much as they could and would continue to shoot any reds on the list, that is their choice but there would have been 0 penaltys if they did not adopt our KOS list. ----------------------- Auctoritan Syndicate Director
Sinia Shadow Council	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:30:00 - [363] Jade, have you or have you not stated your long term goal is the destruction of Inflatable House? Yet you wonder why you are on CVA's red list?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:35:00 - [364] Originally by: Reash Your right, its not rocket science, Star Fraction has helped NBSI entitys in providence and is therefore a danger to neutrals, hense why star fraction are included in the list. I am not sure why that is so wrong? We have not helped NBSI entities to shoot neutrals in Providence. That's fact. If you are using the accusation that we do in fact help NBSI entities to shoot neutrals in Providence and using that as a basis for the willful misrepresentation of our Alliance to the providence residents through the propagation of your Red List then you are being deceitful and that is the point here. Quote: While i am not going to deny that some groups may believe they "have" to shoot. Mistakes happen, but if one of your pilots accidently shot a neutral entity would that make you NBSI? ALOT of these "mistakes" happen. Many groups believe they "have" to shoot. Others have members that consider the presence of SF on that Red List is a license to kill (since it is in effect a kill on sight list). Too many mistakes for it to be other than by design. And there are some very explicit chat logs with new providence residents citing your policies as the sole reason for their aggression against Star Fraction. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:37:00 - [365] Originally by: Sinia Jade, have you or have you not stated your long term goal is the destruction of Inflatable House? Yet you wonder why you are on CVA's red list? Our ultimate goal is removing the regressive imperialist taint from wherever it may be found. If the CVA turned over a new leaf, stopped dictating standings that set NRDS entities against each other, stopped bullying smaller powers into giving up their political freedoms and generally started acting like decent neutral-respecting people I greatly suspect we'd be very happy to let them keep their outpost in the long term "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:38:00 - [366] Originally by: Reash (no offense to their combat ability, just a large group of mixed corporations tends to end in failure) None taken. Worse was that most of our ships tended to be ratting ships and whatever we could get our hands on. We tried, but we really relied more on hounding targets into logging off than we did actually blowing much up.
Reash Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:49:00 - [367] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Reash Your right, its not rocket science, Star Fraction has helped NBSI entitys in providence and is therefore a danger to neutrals, hense why star fraction are included in the list. I am not sure why that is so wrong? We have not helped NBSI entities to shoot neutrals in Providence. That's fact. If you are using the accusation that we do in fact help NBSI entities to shoot neutrals in Providence and using that as a basis for the willful misrepresentation of our Alliance to the providence residents through the propagation of your Red List then you are being deceitful and that is the point here. Quote: While i am not going to deny that some groups may believe they "have" to shoot. Mistakes happen, but if one of your pilots accidently shot a neutral entity would that make you NBSI? ALOT of these "mistakes" happen. Many groups believe they "have" to shoot. Others have members that consider the presence of SF on that Red List is a license to kill (since it is in effect a kill on sight list). Too many mistakes for it to be other than by design. And there are some very explicit chat logs with new providence residents citing your policies as the sole reason for their aggression against Star Fraction. Star Fraction have recently being assisting UK in their push into providence , Star Fraction has ties to Reven and her merry band of NBSI's (what happened to reven anyway?). you cannot deny this, hell, you wrote about it not so long ago! As i have said its not directly helping them shooting neutrals but non the less by activly helping these entitys you are assisting NBSI in providence, i stand by my defense of Star Fraction being on the list. Conversations guided to have somebody saying the KOS list is a "must" shoot are not really very useful, if thats the information your looking for you are likely to steer the conversation to that conclusion (even accidently) "Did CVA make you set them KOS" could simply be answered "yes" by a neutral because they got teh KOS standings from CVA, they would likely focus on where the standings came from rather than the important word of "make". Grunts not knowing reasons for standings set by their CEO is another example. Simply asking random people in providence is not a good method of finding reliable intel on how standings are set, you need to speak to the people that set them. ----------------------- Auctoritan Syndicate Director
bazzed Black Arrows Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:52:00 - [368] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Reash ...... We have not helped NBSI entities to shoot neutrals in Providence. That's fact. ...... Nope thats wrong jade. True is: you do not help nbsi entities to shoot neutrals with dps directly to the neutrals. but you shoot ppl which try to help and protect this neutrals (like us) when you fight and attack us. so u'k has a clean way to shoot neutral, you cover them (uk) i allready answered about this neutrals and kos list, should be simple enough to understand. and look at your co-operation with uk... so you really can not imagine ppl want to shoot you then too? people are not dumb jade... people see who attack them (uk), peopel see who is helping uk against cva/holders (you)... and again: no nobody is forced to follow the kos list.. again and again.. peopel do that becouse they want. just becouse one pilot from one corp said that...its not true... and you can repeat that 100x it still will not be true .. becouse its not.
Idaeus Earned In Blood	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:56:00 - [369] All of this makes me wonder if we're still on CVA's red list. I remember getting threatened in local about not being wanted there and such, I wonder if that's changed. (I know we're still red to Star Fraction. I'd like to resolve that (I like a lot of people that are in it, or were in it at least), but I'm too lazy.) Anyway, to the point. People who operate in that area tend to think they do need to shoot those CVA set red. We picked up three wardecs a year ago because of just that reason (which was a waste of ISK though, since it was just a roadtrip. We like the north.). Earned In Blood
Sinia Shadow Council	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:58:00 - [370] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Sinia Jade, have you or have you not stated your long term goal is the destruction of Inflatable House? Yet you wonder why you are on CVA's red list? Our ultimate goal is removing the regressive imperialist taint from wherever it may be found. If the CVA turned over a new leaf, stopped dictating standings that set NRDS entities against each other, stopped bullying smaller powers into giving up their political freedoms and generally started acting like decent neutral-respecting people I greatly suspect we'd be very happy to let them keep their outpost in the long term In contrast to Star Fraction doing even worse in the name of "freedom"? Declaring war on smaller powers until give up their political freedoms? Bullying them into doing things SF's way? Some of us remember your wars against the small RP corps of the Caldari and Gallente side that you saw fit to beat up for trying something different. Stop pretending you are the wronged party here. You declared war on CVA in the past, unprovoked. You declared your intentions to destroy their first outpost. You fly with NBSI entities such as Ushra'Khan and WIN. You are a threat to what CVA are building in Providence. You will do whatever you can to "win", lieing about the way CVA operates until you are blue in the face doesn't change the way they operate however.

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:07:00 - [371] Originally by: Reash Star Fraction have recently being assisting UK in their push into providence , Star Fraction has ties to Reven and her merry band of NBSI's (what happened to reven anyway?). you cannot deny this, hell, you wrote about it not so long ago! Ushra'khan are trying to liberate Providence from your oppressive regime and reclaim the outposts you stole. Its easy to forget perhaps that the Ushra'khan presence you destroyed with the help of various NBSI entities yourself was fundamentally freespace and far more open than CVA providence currently is. But the problem with your argument is - you are saying SF "supports" (murky term) NBSI entities (without actually ever shooting neutrals). One could just as easily say that CVA "supports (murky term) those NBSI entities you currently have NAPs with outside of Providence. You are throwing stones in glass houses here Reash and making a bit of a mess of all the misdirection and spin deployed by your alliance mates. Quote: Do your seriously believe our KOS list was designed to "trick" neutrals into shooting Star Fraction? Yes, yes I do. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:14:00 - [372] Originally by: bazzed Nope thats wrong jade. True is: you do not help nbsi entities to shoot neutrals with dps directly to the neutrals. but you shoot ppl which try to help and protect this neutrals (like us) when you fight and attack us. Sev3rance has absolutely nothing to do with shooting pirates and NBSI entities. Your only role in Providence is to bolster CVA's power and support their holdings. In three months of fighting you guys on and off I have never see you engage a genuine pirate. You are fighting a political war against Ushra'khan because you have stolen their previous home. Just try to jazz it up as some kind of noble calling, it simply isn't. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Reash Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:15:00 - [373] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Reash Star Fraction have recently being assisting UK in their push into providence , Star Fraction has ties to Reven and her merry band of NBSI's (what happened to reven anyway?). you cannot deny this, hell, you wrote about it not so long ago! Ushra'khan are trying to liberate Providence from your oppressive regime and reclaim the outposts you stole. Its easy to forget perhaps that the Ushra'khan presence you destroyed with the help of various NBSI entities yourself was fundamentally freespace and far more open than CVA providence currently is. But the problem with your argument is - you are saying SF "supports" (murky term) NBSI entities (without actually ever shooting neutrals). One could just as easily say that CVA "supports (murky term) those NBSI entities you currently have NAPs with outside of Providence. You are throwing stones in glass houses here Reash and making a bit of a mess of all the misdirection and spin deployed by your alliance mates. Quote: Do your seriously believe our KOS list was designed to "trick" neutrals into shooting Star Fraction? Yes, yes I do. As far as i know...there were no NBSI entitys helping us take outposts from ushra'khan (i think IAC made an appearnace but they are NRDS in providence and didnt really help, they attacked Ushra'khan on their own) Severence were the main assistance and they are, in fact, NRDS. CVA does not have NAP's with any entitys that NBSI in providence, the only major power we are friendly with is IAC, who obey NRDS in Providence. I might be throwing stones in a glass house, unfortunatly it seems to be your house. p.s Our KOS list was not an elaborate plan to get people shoting Star Fraction, no offense, but your not that important to us. ----------------------- Auctoritan Syndicate Director
bazzed Black Arrows Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:27:00 - [374] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: bazzed Sev3rance has absolutely nothing to do with shooting pirates and NBSI entities. Your only role in Providence is to bolster CVA's power and support their holdings. In three months of fighting you guys on and off I have never see you engage a genuine pirate. You are fighting a political war against Ushra'khan because you have stolen their previous home. Just try to jazz it up as some kind of noble calling, it simply isn't. you changing the topic.. but anyway. you said you have access to our forums.. then you have access to our kb too. so feel free to have a look at it. anyway i am out of this thread.. it just make no sense to discuss with somebody who is just repeating the same stuff again and again which is not true. so have fun and see you in space.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:34:00 - [375] Originally by: Reash As far as i know...there were no NBSI entitys helping us take outposts from ushra'khan (i think IAC made an appearnace but they are NRDS in providence and didnt really help, they attacked Ushra'khan on their own) Severence were the main assistance and they are, in fact, NRDS. See this is where you begin to go wrong. How on earth do you expect people to accept that IAC is not a real NBSI entity just because you say they do not NBSI "In providence". Does this mean you expect people who lose ships to your NBSI allies outside providence to just accept that and seek no recourse? I mean, you began this Reash by trying to accuse SF of "supporting" NBSI powers but when you are called on the same issue suddenly you twist the terms of the debate and try to argue an exception on the grounds that the NBSI allies you are making use of this week just don't happen to shoot neutrals and pirate in Providence specifically? It doesn't wash Reash - it really doesn't. And "didn't really help" "they just attacked Ushra'khan on their own". How naive do you think people really are Reash. Seriously. Quote: p.s Our KOS list was not an elaborate plan to get people shoting Star Fraction, no offense, but your not that important to us. The apparent fixation that you chaps have on posting in this thread would seem to argue otherwise... "I might not have meant anything by it"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:37:00 - [376] Originally by: Jade Constantine Quote: p.s Our KOS list was not an elaborate plan to get people shoting Star Fraction, no offense, but your not that important to us. The apparent fixation that you chaps have on posting in this thread would seem to argue otherwise... I like this new take, actually. We've been around the "you oppress neutrals in your space/no we don't" bush for 8 pages or some-such. Let's get into the "who cares more about whom" shouting match. Remembering, of course, that Jade loudly and proudly proclaimed CVA as Star Fraction's endgame in another discussion.
Reash Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:48:00 - [377] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Reash As far as i know...there were no NBSI entitys helping us take outposts from ushra'khan (i think IAC made an appearnace but they are NRDS in providence and didnt really help, they attacked Ushra'khan on their own) Severence were the main assistance and they are, in fact, NRDS. See this is where you begin to go wrong. How on earth do you expect people to accept that IAC is not a real NBSI entity just because you say they do not NBSI "In providence". Does this mean you expect people who lose ships to your NBSI allies outside providence to just accept that and seek no recourse? I mean, you began this Reash by trying to accuse SF of "supporting" NBSI powers but when you are called on the same issue suddenly you twist the terms of the debate and try to argue an exception on the grounds that the NBSI allies you are making use of this week just don't happen to shoot neutrals and pirate in Providence specifically? It doesn't wash Reash - it really doesn't. And "didn't really help" "they just attacked Ushra'khan on their own". How naive do you think people really are Reash. Seriously. Quote: p.s Our KOS list was not an elaborate plan to get people shoting Star Fraction, no offense, but your not that important to us. The apparent fixation that you chaps have on posting in this thread would seem to argue otherwise... CVA policy has always been about "providence", we cannot control what other entitys do with their space (IAC is one of the few entitys in EVE that has tried NRDS in its own space, with less sucess than us i admit). What happens in providence is a neutral attacks IAC for their NBSI in catch? well...nothing as the neutral was tresspassing in IAC space, we use diplacy and try and resolve the issue, if IAC were pirating in domain or providence area we would try and resolve the issue (and issue with this has actually happened, IAC were asked to pay compensation and did so.) IAC have been a long standing friend of the CVA long before they moved to catch not sure what you mean by the "this week" comment, our list of allies stays pretty consistant. IAC's attacks were generally between CVA POS attacks, UK and IAC were hostile to each other and attacked each other, perfectly normal, to my knowldge there was never any combined CVA/IAC fleet (possible a couple of ships may have joined an attack if they were in the area, but certainly no large scale force). And no, Star Fraction are not that important to me, however if somebody is consistantly trying intentionally lie about CVA policy we are going to correct it. ----------------------- Auctoritan Syndicate Director
Solusar Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.24 05:02:00 - [378] Originally by: Jade Constantine And "didn't really help" "they just attacked Ushra'khan on their own". How naive do you think people really are Reash. Seriously. IAC attacking Ushra'Khan may have something to do with Ushra'Khan declaring war on IAC in the past, before IAC even moved out into 0.0? Nice try though. If it was left to IAC I suspect Ushra'Khan would have lost their outposts at a much earlier date.
Conlin Gallente Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.24 09:24:00 - [379] Originally by: Reash Edited by: Reash on 24/01/2008 00:16:23 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Reash Star Fraction have recently being assisting UK in their push into providence , Star Fraction has ties to Reven and her merry band of NBSI's (what happened to reven anyway?). you cannot deny this, hell, you wrote about it not so long ago! Ushra'khan are trying to liberate Providence from your oppressive regime and reclaim the outposts you stole. Its easy to forget perhaps that the Ushra'khan presence you destroyed with the help of various NBSI entities yourself was fundamentally freespace and far more open than CVA providence currently is. But the problem with your argument is - you are saying SF "supports" (murky term) NBSI entities (without actually ever shooting neutrals). One could just as easily say that CVA "supports (murky term) those NBSI entities you currently have NAPs with outside of Providence. You are throwing stones in glass houses here Reash and making a bit of a mess of all the misdirection and spin deployed by your alliance mates. Quote: Do your seriously believe our KOS list was designed to "trick" neutrals into shooting Star Fraction? Yes, yes I do. As far as i know...there were no NBSI entitys helping us take outposts from ushra'khan (i think IAC made an appearnace but they are NRDS in providence and didnt really help, they attacked Ushra'khan on their own) Severence were the main assistance and they are, in fact, NRDS. CVA does not have NAP's with any entitys that NBSI in providence, the only major power we are friendly with is IAC, who obey NRDS in Providence. Variour others have been contacted but do not wish to obey NRDS and are therefore hostile. I might be throwing stones in a glass house, unfortunatly it seems to be your house. p.s Our KOS list was not an elaborate plan to get people shoting Star Fraction, no offense, but your not that important to us. Therein lies either spin , verbal diaarrhoea or a lie . Important enough to wardec them though
duckmonster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.24 12:12:00 - [380] Man. I'd really like to go riding bikes in providence to shoot UK and SF. But hey, not up to me. -----------

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.24 14:16:00 - [381] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/01/2008 14:19:46 Originally by: Reash CVA policy has always been about "providence", we cannot control what other entitys do with their space (IAC is one of the few entitys in EVE that has tried NRDS in its own space, with less sucess than us i admit). What happens in providence is a neutral attacks IAC for their NBSI in catch? well...nothing as the neutral was tresspassing in IAC space So here we see the hypocrisy in the CVA "principled" stance on pseudo-NRDS in Providence really. You acknowledge the right of your allies to run NBSI, to "pirate", to do whatever anywhere else in Eve and you attempt to deny their victims the freedom to defend themselves, or indeed reply to that aggression across the border in Providence. Your resolution of these issues is always in the favor of the larger entity (which is pragmatic for you guys, but hardly principled) and always ends up with the smaller entity needing to zero standings and yield independence in the interest of your political settlement. The irony here is that we are not arguing about the facts of what CVA do in Providence or the various shady deals and dodgy maneuvers required to keep your grip on power. We don't disagree on any of that. The reason these debates continue (and will always continue) is that its an argument over perception, analysis and defensive "spin" as you guys try to describe a top-down authoritarian standings enclosurist regime as something other than it clearly is. Quote: IAC's attacks were generally between CVA POS attacks, UK and IAC were hostile to each other and attacked each other, perfectly normal, to my knowldge there was never any combined CVA/IAC fleet (possible a couple of ships may have joined an attack if they were in the area, but certainly no large scale force). Stop trying to wriggle so hard! Seriously, all we need to ascertain is that the CVA have materially-benefited from the attacks of an NBSI class entity upon a (then) NRDS entity (as Ushra'khan was before its outposts were stolen). Thats all we need to know Reash in order to make your earlier comments and accusations against SF "aiding NBSI entities" by "not shooting neutrals" fully revealed as the clear case of double standards and systematic hypocrisy they represent. We wouldn't be having these discussions if CVA wasn't trying so hard to pretend to be "White Knights" while actually benefiting from shady NAP's with NBSI class alliances, removing the political independence from all smaller alliances and corps, twisting its words and encouraging neutrals to shoot other neutrals by propagating the obedience to a deceitful KOS list that mixes genuine NBSI/pirates with political enemies. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.24 14:18:00 - [382] Originally by: duckmonster Man. I'd really like to go riding bikes in providence to shoot UK and SF. But hey, not up to me. Careful! They'd have to find an excuse not to fight you like: "On noes SF was between us and the goons and we couldn't fire!" But seriously Duckmonster. Bring it. We love killing Goons, its high entertainment and on that level you do succeed in adding something to the gameplay environment. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:03:00 - [383] I hate Uk being labeled as NBSI but I won't open that front again. It is RP (yes, Janu, you get shot in Providence for having CVA friendly in your bio, see IGS for details). But please be aware that UK has adopted this policy only for Providence and only after recent changes in our role there. What really bothers me is that you still pretend that things are because you say they are. I think it is not possible to seclude Providence from the rest of Eve. So if I have a conflict with someone and I come to Providence, I cannot continue fighting him if he is not on the list. That has nothing to do with pirating. And sorry, I don't think all that matters is that CVA doesn't order the execution of its red list. When you say "CVA red" in intel channel you know what happens. This individual gets set red and shot at. And once set red it will not only get shot in Providence but anywhere. Please don't play naive. I mean, that's ok tbh. You have the power to do so and people who want to live in your space have to act accordingly. Just don't tell everyone that Providence is free to roam and only bad people are on that list. People who are not willing to look into the depths of the Providence conflict will just say, "ok, SF (or UK) are on the pirate list, they must be pirates". That's what buggers me. Whats the deal in excluding political enemies from the list you give to some random neutral? I have much respect for CVA in their way of fighting. I just think that whole propaganda BS should stop. You don't need that. p.s. Sorry, m8, but "SF helps NBSI entities" is something different when a joined UK/SF op against an alliance we were both at war. That's exactly the things I mean.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:08:00 - [384] But you ARE pirates to most Providence residents who do not care about your motivation to shoot them and only about THAT you shoot them. After all it was you who announced 'everyone who's not for us is against us in Providence'. Reap -> sow. I really don't understand what you guys are complaining about - your RP reasons are valid, but you'll have to deal with the fact that people won't like your behaviour anyways. Now recruiting!
Hardin Amarr FAER Holdings Fatal Error.	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:19:00 - [385] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/01/2008 14:28:45 Originally by: duckmonster Man. I'd really like to go riding bikes in providence to shoot UK and SF. But hey, not up to me. If you guys get tired of failing to kill BOB then come try it on with us please. /emote buys some popcorn ------------------------------
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:30:00 - [386] Originally by: Tharrn But you ARE pirates to most Providence residents who do not care about your motivation to shoot them and only about THAT you shoot them. No they are not PIRATES Tharrn, this is the root of the all the bad feelings that the CVA and their bloc create by pushing this line of propaganda. You know perfectly well that Ushra'khan are fighting an RP political war against Amarrian slavers and the collaborators of Amarrian slavers. They do not camp lowsec gates harvesting everyone that comes through for fun and profit, they do not ransom victims, they don't shoot everyone, they don't behave like pirates, they behave like political insurgents fighting a war against an occupying force. You know this perfectly well Tharrn. But you see the benefit in describing them as PIRATES simply because you know it brings non-RP previously neutral Providence residents into the war on your side. Its a over-simplified dumbed down sop that you know will be effective simply because most people don't care about the "slaver" tag you sometimes wear at pro-amarr empire event rallies. Quote: After all it was you who announced 'everyone who's not for us is against us in Providence'. Reap -> sow. I really don't understand what you guys are complaining about - your RP reasons are valid, but you'll have to deal with the fact that people won't like your behaviour anyways. If it WAS people making up their own mind then that would be one thing. But CVA is industriously persuading and bullying people into making their minds up with this perfidiously deceitful "Red List" mixing genuine NBSI pirates with political enemies and confusing the issue for those who wish to operate in Providence. If CVA had the courage not to lie about the motivations and modus operandi of SF and UK they'd be due a lot more respect. Most neutrals in Providence don't see themselves as "slavers" either, but the CVA is happy to describe them as "holders" or citizens in a new Amarrian Province of the Empire when you want to make a news piece. Its double standards from a roleplay perspective also: You are happy to describe your "residents" as (slave)Holders for the benefit of the news. But you refuse to acknowledge the RP cause of the Ushra'khan in opposing slavery in Providence because its convenient for you to blacken the name of political enemies with murky allegations of piracy that the lowest common denominator providence resident might be convinced by. And lets be clear about something Tharrn. You accuse Ushra'khan of "reaping what they sow" with their Burn Providence NBSI initiative. You might have a point if those NBSI activities actually made them more likely to be set red than NRDS would. But I can tell you from personal experience that the Star Fractions absolutely rigid and disciplined ROE and enduring policy of not shooting neutrals has left us with Exactly the same number of -10 set Providence Resident powers as Ushra'khan have. This is because the reason UK (and SF) is set -10 is because CVA tell people to set us -10 and thats the end of the story. It has nothing to do with judging people by their actions and them "reaping what they sow" and everything to do with CVA stacking the decks and telling minor powers who they must set -10KOS. If Ushra'khan was NRDS and didn't shoot neutrals they'd have precisely the same number of hostiles as they have right now because in the eyes of those conditioned providence tenants an attack on CVA is an attack on them. As long as Ushra'khan, SF, or anyone else, attacks CVA, then its irrelevant what their overall engagement methodology is because any attack on CVA is going to get them on the Red List and the Red List is going to make sure everyone in the CVA's shadow is going to set the CVA's enemies -10. There is no CVA enemy in existence that is not -10 to all Providence pets regardless of Engagement Ideology. So quit with the nonsense about "piracy". Attack on CVA = -10 to all CVA pets. Thats reality "I might not have meant anything by it"
Hardin Amarr FAER Holdings Fatal Error.	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:00:00 - [387] Okay Jade, we believe you Seriously can all CVA, all CVA allies, all neutrals who live in Providence, all other neutrals and generally any other independent third parties who disagree with Jade please leave this thread alone. You are simply giving Jade a platform to make the same points again and again and again and again and to be honest its getting boring. At the end of the day everyone who lives in Providence knows how it works and there really is no point trying to prove otherwise to Jade who is simply pushing his own agenda regardless of facts and evidence. Jade is an expert in conducting never ending circular arguements and we have already said what needed to be said (a long time ago). I do appreciate all the non-CVA who have jumped in to back up the CVA viewpoint but there really is no point getting into an ongoing war of words with Jade who clearly has nothing better to do At the end of the day actions count louder than words. Amarr Victor and all that... o7 ------------------------------
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:25:00 - [388] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 24/01/2008 16:25:35 nvm Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:38:00 - [389] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Tharrn But you ARE pirates to most Providence residents who do not care about your motivation to shoot them and only about THAT you shoot them. No they are not PIRATES Tharrn, this is the root of the all the bad feelings that the CVA and their bloc create by pushing this line of propaganda. You know perfectly well that Ushra'khan are fighting an RP political war against Amarrian slavers and the collaborators of Amarrian slavers. They do not camp lowsec gates harvesting everyone that comes through for fun and profit, they do not ransom victims, they don't shoot everyone, they don't behave like pirates, they behave like political insurgents fighting a war against an occupying force. Why do you always have to deliberately missread for your cheap propaganda chills? I did say they are pirates to those people who do not care about their RP motivations. The truth is always in the eye of the beholder, and if I get shot by some entity for simply being in the area and not being on their side I usually label them as pirates. Most people care **** all about the Amarr/Minmatar war and just want to go about their business in Providence - and if those get shot up for 'colaborating with slavers' they'll brand the aggressor pirate, whether he likes it or not. That is how the cookie crumbles. Now recruiting!
Eddie Gordo Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:57:00 - [390] Originally by: Hardin Okay Jade, we believe you yada yada yada.... Two things: 1) I'd like this smiley to be removed from the forums ---> <-- Its not really anything to do with this particular issue, I just take offence to its overuse. 2) I agree that the thread has run its course. But please hardin, dont play the moral high ground game its tired. If you want a thread to end, why not agree to disagree? Dont say "we win and nobody is allowed to discuss otherwise" Now Recruiting

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:07:00 - [391] Originally by: Tharrn Why do you always have to deliberately missread for your cheap propaganda chills? I did say they are pirates to those people who do not care about their RP motivations. The truth is always in the eye of the beholder, and if I get shot by some entity for simply being in the area and not being on their side I usually label them as pirates. You are making my point for me. CVA is deliberately mislabeling a political enemy as "pirates" simply to diminish the value of discussion and political choice-making in Providence. By refusing to admit or recognize that there is a political motive for the Ushra'khan (or Star Fraction) to attack the CVA you are trying to tar these opposing forces with the brush of "piracy" because you know full well that if you actually explained to the Providence pets that this was a purely political war of opposing ideologies it would be much harder to sway them onto your side and mindlessly accept the CVA Red List as some kind of "honest" list of NBSI hostiles. Quote: Most people care **** all about the Amarr/Minmatar war and just want to go about their business in Providence - and if those get shot up for 'colaborating with slavers' they'll brand the aggressor pirate, whether he likes it or not. That is how the cookie crumbles. And its a cookie that the CVA is specifically baking by mixing political enemies with pirate NBSI'ers on their Red List that they insist Providence residents must accept and implement to remain in good standings with the CVA. Thats the point Tharrn. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Reash Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:25:00 - [392] Originally by: Eddie Gordo Edited by: Eddie Gordo on 24/01/2008 16:58:18 Originally by: Hardin Okay Jade, we believe you yada yada yada.... Two things: 1) I'd like this smiley to be removed from the forums ---> <-- Its not really anything to do with this particular issue, I just take offence to its overuse. 2) I agree that the thread has run its course. But please Hardin, dont play the moral high ground game, its tired. If you want a thread to end, why not agree to disagree? Dont say "we win and nobody is allowed to discuss otherwise" This will be my last post in the thread as at the end of the day everything has been said and the people that matter know the truth. 1) I agree, not a fan of it either. 2) I personally don't have a problem with jade not liking our standing system, thats fine, everybody is entitled to their opinion, what i do have a problem with is Jade hating the made up CVA standing system in his head and saying thats our system, which it is obviously not. Hardin simply realises that discussion is pointless, dispite numerous posts stating our stance on something, Jade simply says our stance is something else, there really is not any point speaking on the issie, our stance is what it is, no matter how much jade says otherwise. If anybody wishes to discuss how the CVA standing system works, please, feel free to contact a CVA diplomat! P.S CVA has made an effort to reduce the amount UK are refered to as "pirates" but at the end of the day you can understand why people would call a NBSI group pirates , we simply dont have the man power to tell everybody individually, on many occasions we have told people the history between CVA and UK. ----------------------- Auctoritan Syndicate Director
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:49:00 - [393] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/01/2008 17:51:53 Originally by: Reash 2) I personally don't have a problem with jade not liking our standing system, thats fine, everybody is entitled to their opinion, what i do have a problem with is Jade hating the made up CVA standing system in his head and saying thats our system, which it is obviously not. Well the problem for you is Reash, that though the CVA and friends have endlessly posted denials and spin in an attempt to muddy the water, the reality is you haven't once disproved a single element of the accusations I make about your utilization of the standings regime in Providence. 1. CVA have a Red List that they administrate that lists their specific political enemies alongside pirates and NBSI entities. 2. CVA provide this Red List to new residents to Providence without highlighting the difference in ideology between political enemies AND said pirates. 3. The Red List is generally accepted as a KOS list to said residents and is directly responsible for neutral NRDS entities firing on other neutral NRDS entities. 4. The Red List is effectively standings enclosure both ways. Firstly it determines who MUST be set Red if one wishes to be a resident in "good standing" and gain access to Citadel and joint ops. Secondly it determines who cannot be set RED - ie, everyone else that the CVA is on good terms with, NBSI, terroristialist, pirate or what not. 5. "Neutral" residents of Providence do get the impression they are expected to attack Red's on that list. 6. Eventually all "neutrals" in Providence do attack entities on the Red List. 7. CVA itself has allies who are NBSI and do conduct acts of piracy outside of Providence. 8. CVA materially benefits from manipulating providence "neutrals" into attack its ideological foes by lumping them in with pirates and random NBSI threats. Quote: Hardin simply realises that discussion is pointless, dispite numerous posts stating our stance on something, Jade simply says our stance is something else, there really is not any point speaking on the issie, our stance is what it is, no matter how much jade says otherwise. Neither Hardin nor yourself (nor indeed any other commentator on the CVA side) is actually discussing anything. You are simply repeating a pre-prepared propaganda stance which your enemies choose not to believe. Thats why the discussion seems endless because you are trying to bully your point across to an audience that (unlike the Providence residents) cannot be bullied in this way. You are trying to force your opinions on freedom-fighters and free-thinkers who have learned to be deeply cynical about your words and tactics. In this forum which is specifically tasked to political discussion and debate your ordinary tactics of PR and spin are ineffective. Hence the frustration that Hardin feels that he cannot effectively get his point across. The natural response for a bully who is faced down in this way is to leave the field. QED. Quote: P.S CVA has made an effort to reduce the amount UK are refered to as "pirates" but at the end of the day you can understand why people would call a NBSI group pirates , we simply dont have the man power to tell everybody individually, on many occasions we have told people the history between CVA and UK. You do however have the ability to split your Red List between genuine "pirates" and specific political enemies who fight the CVA on ideological/roleplay grounds. The fact you choose not to do this simply proves you consider it too beneficial to continue the practice of misrepresenting your enemies as "pirates" in order to better manipulate "neutrals" into attacking neutrals and making others fight your wars for you. Reash this is a discussion forum for discussing politics. Thats what I'm using it for. If you find you cannot counter the points I raise in an honest discussion then the general CAOD public is going to conclude that you are simply in the wrong. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Conlin Gallente Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:09:00 - [394] Originally by: Tharrn But you ARE pirates to most Providence residents who do not care about your motivation to shoot them and only about THAT you shoot them. After all it was you who announced 'everyone who's not for us is against us in Providence'. Reap -> sow. I really don't understand what you guys are complaining about - your RP reasons are valid, but you'll have to deal with the fact that people won't like your behaviour anyways. Ok 4 years ago 0.0 was a free fire zone , now pilots need a hug ?. They only called us pirates when CVA & friends started shouting it, in local .Thats were it originated from . That is fact no denying it . Now you try to justify the terminology of pirate in our direction with ,dont shoot them they wont call you a pirate ?. Well Ive heard some pretty lame excuses in the past , but cmon , just the other day a CVA called me a pirate in G5 . What was his excuse ?.
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:11:00 - [395] Ok, one last thing. I accept that to the eyes of someone entering Providence without being aware of its history UK's policy looks like NBSI. That's why UK pilots are supposed to explain the background. OOC no problem with that. I am also aware that CVA has lately reduced the use of the label "pirate" towards UK and I appreciate. I only think that you should take the effort of being true to yourself and to your allies (or neuts). Whatever you think of SF they have a point there that is worth thinking about. They are NRDS and they get shot at (a lot) because of CVA standings regime. And these are people who are not in any conflict towards SF except that SF opposes the ruling power in providence and they want to play nice with it. Providence is not free space as long as it is like this. My two cents.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:15:00 - [396] Originally by: Conlin Edited by: Conlin on 24/01/2008 18:18:00 Originally by: Tharrn But you ARE pirates to most Providence residents who do not care about your motivation to shoot them and only about THAT you shoot them. After all it was you who announced 'everyone who's not for us is against us in Providence'. Reap -> sow. I really don't understand what you guys are complaining about - your RP reasons are valid, but you'll have to deal with the fact that people won't like your behaviour anyways. They only called us pirates when CVA & friends started shouting it, in local .Thats were it originated from . That is fact no denying it . Now you try to justify the terminology of pirate in our direction with ,dont shoot them they wont call you a pirate ?. Well Ive heard some pretty lame excuses in the past , but cmon , just the other day a CVA called me a pirate in G5 . What was his excuse ?. I dunno, I'd call Ushra'khan a pirate organization because it actively participates in gatecamps on the pipes to blast people at random for crossing the line between empire and no-sec. A few weeks ago when I entered Providence from one of the direct jumps to high sec and was annihilated by an Ushra'khan and Terra Incognita (a pretty blatantly piratical alliance) gatecamp, what exactly was your motivation? A lone DMC pilot in a shuttle represented some kind of threat? If that wasn't piracy, what was it, terrorism?
Conlin Gallente Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:25:00 - [397] Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Conlin Edited by: Conlin on 24/01/2008 18:18:00 Originally by: Tharrn But you ARE pirates to most Providence residents who do not care about your motivation to shoot them and only about THAT you shoot them. After all it was you who announced 'everyone who's not for us is against us in Providence'. Reap -> sow. I really don't understand what you guys are complaining about - your RP reasons are valid, but you'll have to deal with the fact that people won't like your behaviour anyways. They only called us pirates when CVA & friends started shouting it, in local .Thats were it originated from . That is fact no denying it . Now you try to justify the terminology of pirate in our direction with ,dont shoot them they wont call you a pirate ?. Well Ive heard some pretty lame excuses in the past , but cmon , just the other day a CVA called me a pirate in G5 . What was his excuse ?. I dunno, I'd call Ushra'khan a pirate organization because it actively participates in gatecamps on the pipes to blast people at random for crossing the line between empire and no-sec. A few weeks ago when I entered Providence from one of the direct jumps to high sec and was annihilated by an Ushra'khan and Terra Incognita (a pretty blatantly piratical alliance) gatecamp, what exactly was your motivation? A lone DMC pilot in a shuttle represented some kind of threat? If that wasn't piracy, what was it, terrorism? Freedom Fighting !! Your use of the words terrorism and piracy are used far too loosely , but then you dont understand the full history of U'K & CVA in providence .
Flaming Noob Subversive Introvert Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:27:00 - [398] Originally by: Janu Hull If that wasn't piracy, what was it, terrorism? Enclosurism.
TrevorReznik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:56:00 - [399] no one cares stop bumping this thread
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:39:00 - [400] You want to really know, Janu Hull? If yes read here. The thread has been put back a bit, IGS is very active. You don't have to appreciate that we RP. But please be aware that it is the whole reason for UK to exist. No piracy, no NBSI, no bull****. Just RP. And we live up to it, believe it or not.

Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:08:00 - [401] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 24/01/2008 22:08:48 Why should the question of whether its RP that fuels your actions or not have anything to do with, well anything? All actions are IC, this whole argument is about IC things. For that matter, why would anyone expect CVA to care if neutrals shoot their enemies for them? The important thing is that CVA doesn't care if neutrals choose to ignore CVA's enemies. You are attacking CVA because they have a political ideology you dont like. Good reason. Keep shooting. CVA. Neutrals who like the environment CVA has created in providence are shooting you because you are shooting CVA. Its all perfectly good IC, as are the neutrals calling U'K pirates because they are being shot against CVA's laws. Thats ALL pirate means. If you shoot someone that the ruling power doesn't think you can shoot, you are a pirate IC. Thats not a bad thing, its just um a definition. Both SF and U'K are quite literally pirates from CVA's perspective. From those who don't like CVA's perspective, on the other hand, they are not pirates at all. This is cool, would make for nice IC discussion if you people could get the absurd idea that pirate is somehow an OOC label our of your heads. Take it IC where you can have fun with the different perspectives of it all instead of this silly discussion. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:12:00 - [402] Originally by: Conlin Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Conlin Edited by: Conlin on 24/01/2008 18:18:00 Originally by: Tharrn But you ARE pirates to most Providence residents who do not care about your motivation to shoot them and only about THAT you shoot them. After all it was you who announced 'everyone who's not for us is against us in Providence'. Reap -> sow. I really don't understand what you guys are complaining about - your RP reasons are valid, but you'll have to deal with the fact that people won't like your behaviour anyways. They only called us pirates when CVA & friends started shouting it, in local .Thats were it originated from . That is fact no denying it . Now you try to justify the terminology of pirate in our direction with ,dont shoot them they wont call you a pirate ?. Well Ive heard some pretty lame excuses in the past , but cmon , just the other day a CVA called me a pirate in G5 . What was his excuse ?. I dunno, I'd call Ushra'khan a pirate organization because it actively participates in gatecamps on the pipes to blast people at random for crossing the line between empire and no-sec. A few weeks ago when I entered Providence from one of the direct jumps to high sec and was annihilated by an Ushra'khan and Terra Incognita (a pretty blatantly piratical alliance) gatecamp, what exactly was your motivation? A lone DMC pilot in a shuttle represented some kind of threat? If that wasn't piracy, what was it, terrorism? Freedom Fighting !! Your use of the words terrorism and piracy are used far too loosely , but then you dont understand the full history of U'K & CVA in providence . Eh, I remember it well enough, the rhetoric during those last days in 9UY were positively epic. Like I said, its a game, I like how y'all play it, even if I do raz you for it.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:13:00 - [403] Originally by: Kabajashi San You want to really know, Janu Hull? If yes read here. The thread has been put back a bit, IGS is very active. You don't have to appreciate that we RP. But please be aware that it is the whole reason for UK to exist. No piracy, no NBSI, no bull****. Just RP. And we live up to it, believe it or not. I know ya do. And thanks for the reminder, I've been wording my posts carefully because I couldn't for the life of me remember what y'all called the 9UY station.
Lorna V Minmatar IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.25 03:13:00 - [404] Originally by: Jade Constantine We have not helped NBSI entities to shoot neutrals in Providence. That's fact. If you are using the accusation that we do in fact help NBSI entities to shoot neutrals in Providence and using that as a basis for the willful misrepresentation of our Alliance to the providence residents through the propagation of your Red List then you are being deceitful and that is the point here. How many neutrals died while trapped in large bubbles anchored by your corp for the use of Ushra'Khan? Almost any fool can see that that is you helping an NBSI entity shoot neutrals in Providence. I say almost any fool because there's clearly at least one who's still too obtuse to see it. Now I don't mean to keep harping on about the bubbles because, I frankly don't care that much. What concerns me is more how utterly and persistently full of ** you are. And, what baffles me more is your belief that the only way neutrals would want to shoot you in Providence is if CVA made them. You build it up as though Providence were Stalingrad and a CVA gang were waiting next door to shoot neutrals who refuse to fight. Even more implausibly, you perceive this imaginary plot to be centered around you. How overly complicated... No worries, I'm here to simplify things for you. Fact is, your efforts in Providence thus far have primarily been in support of a NBSI entity (UK) and have been aided by numerous other NBSI and/or pirate groups. Now maybe you don't go around shooting every neutral you see, but the people you associate with do. Reality is, when your name is reported alongside theirs in Providence intel channels, you make yourself a target to neutrals who've been previously attacked by the company you keep. Seems to me, your real complaint isn't that "CVA made them do it", it's that no one else is willing to walk the line of your "fire on my corp, we fire on yours NRDS". I'll you why, and it's got nothing to do with CVA or anyone else telling anyone what to do. It's about people generally being sensible and seeing a broader perspective than your narrow mind allows. They say: "These SF guys roll with a nasty crowd; a crowd who shoots neutrals and wants to overturn the NRDS regime in Providence that I rather like. Can't say they've ever shot me personally, but they've shot my friends. I can see quite clearly what side of the fence they're on, and it sure as hl isn't mine. I think I'd quite like to see that mouthy one in a pod" And, it's as simple as that. No guns at the back, no "standings enclosurism". Just a bunch of people who've seen what you're really all about, and frankly, don't like you. Cheers, Lorna V
Gundano IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.25 03:47:00 - [405] Edited by: Gundano on 25/01/2008 03:50:09 Edited by: Gundano on 25/01/2008 03:49:12 Jade just admit (to save another 14 pages) that this has nothing to do with role playing or politics. The only thing holding your war dec in place is an effort to save face and maintain dignity with a hint of pride. We all see it regardless of what side we are on
Conlin Gallente Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.25 04:50:00 - [406] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 24/01/2008 22:08:48 Why should the question of whether its RP that fuels your actions or not have anything to do with, well anything? All actions are IC, this whole argument is about IC things. For that matter, why would anyone expect CVA to care if neutrals shoot their enemies for them? The important thing is that CVA doesn't care if neutrals choose to ignore CVA's enemies. You are attacking CVA because they have a political ideology you dont like. Good reason. Keep shooting. CVA. Neutrals who like the environment CVA has created in providence are shooting you because you are shooting CVA. Its all perfectly good IC, as are the neutrals calling U'K pirates because they are being shot against CVA's laws. Thats ALL pirate means. If you shoot someone that the ruling power doesn't think you can shoot, you are a pirate IC. Thats not a bad thing, its just um a definition. Both SF and U'K are quite literally pirates from CVA's perspective. From those who don't like CVA's perspective, on the other hand, they are not pirates at all. This is cool, would make for nice IC discussion if you people could get the absurd idea that pirate is somehow an OOC label our of your heads. Take it IC where you can have fun with the different perspectives of it all instead of this silly discussion. You lost the plot once again Gaven , it was due to cva we got called pirates , and it was cva , yes even pie that were guilty of it also , its not pc anymore so you try to manipulate nuetrals and use them as a scapegoat . Some of the old CVA still rp Gaven. Your play on words are pathetic to say the least , oh and why do we shoot nuetrals ?. CVA & friends use nuetral alt corps ....fact ! .
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 05:25:00 - [407] Originally by: Lorna V How many neutrals died while trapped in large bubbles anchored by your corp for the use of Ushra'Khan? Almost any fool can see that that is you helping an NBSI entity shoot neutrals in Providence. How many neutrals die at the hands of IAC and the southern coalition allies of the CVA beyond the borders of Providence? Any fool can see that by flying alongside an NBSI entity you are encouraging their neutral shooting antics. (its called throwing stones in glass houses LornaV - it never works out well) Point is Bubbles are Bubbles, neutrals can get caught in bubbles of all sorts, anchored, dictor, Hics anything else. Neutrals need to take care and take responsibility for their safety sometimes. If they jump into a SF bubble SF ships will not shoot at them. UK, Sev, CVA or whoever else might. Quote: And, what baffles me more is your belief that the only way neutrals would want to shoot you in Providence is if CVA made them. You build it up as though Providence were Stalingrad and a CVA gang were waiting next door to shoot neutrals who refuse to fight. Even more implausibly, you perceive this imaginary plot to be centered around you. How overly complicated... Sev3rance shot at SF because the CVA made you. Your pilot Dreamy fired on a Star Fraction vessel because the CVA reported our pilot as a "pirate" presence in Providence. Previous to that engagement we had Sev3rance neutral with no history of aggression either way. It does rather prove my point. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 05:30:00 - [408] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 05:30:23 Originally by: Gundano Jade just admit (to save another 14 pages) that this has nothing to do with role playing or politics. The only thing holding your war dec in place is an effort to save face and maintain dignity with a hint of pride. We all see it regardless of what side we are on You do realize that Hardin suggested you Providence sorts should stop responding a page ago right? No skin off my nose obviously, but you might be damaging the "unity" of citadel channel or something. As to your point though, Sev3rance is still wardecced by Star Fraction because you fired on one of our vessels back in the spring. If you want to apologize for the unwarranted aggression and pay for the ship loss (and can henceforth commit to remaining neutral in the dispute between SF and the CVA in Providence) we'd be happy to set you back to neutral and end the wardec. Let me know if this is of interest to you guys. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 06:37:00 - [409] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 25/01/2008 06:39:44 Originally by: Conlin You lost the plot once again Gaven , it was due to cva we got called pirates , and it was cva , yes even pie that were guilty of it also , its not pc anymore so you try to manipulate nuetrals and use them as a scapegoat . Some of the old CVA still rp Gaven. Your play on words are pathetic to say the least , oh and why do we shoot nuetrals ?. CVA & friends use nuetral alt corps ....fact ! . No. I think you are the one who missed the point. I understand perfectly well that CVA and its allies labeled you pirates. I fail to see the problem inherent in this. The idea that being called pirates is somehow bad RP on CVA's part is in my opinion absurd. It doesn't compute. You aren't called a pirate in real life, you are a pirate according to in game actions. Therefore the label is as in character as those actions were, even if the pilot calling you that does not make said distinction. If its in character, its not absolute. Its a title used to categorize and unify opposition, which makes perfect sense for the occupying power of a region to do to ALL its enemies. So the idea that being called a pirate by CVA is CVA not RPing, seems off. I am, frankly, sick of the OOC attacks on CVA. They are boring. It is a bloody good drama to watch, if you can step away from it and take the titles your enemies give you with a grain of salt. I mean really, how is it possible that being called pirate is worse than being called terrorist? Both are pejoratives given to you by your enemies for your in game actions and in character ideologies. Instead of screaming OOC about how OOC the title is, scream IC about how you are insulted that the CVA allies would so underestimate you to think that you were "mere" pirates. Finally, you might look up what being a pirate means. Its not some absolute. Its an entirely relative thing based on perspective. From CVA allies perspective, you are certainly a pirate and a terrorist. From your perspective you are fighting for ideals and not a pirate at all. Being a pirate involves illegal assaults on ships according to every definition of the word I have seen that doesn't involve internet downloading. Nothing about neutral. The key word is illegal. Illegal is a slippery word, however. It rests on concepts of right to govern and such. So from a perspective that looks at CVA as the legal holder of the region, you are technically a pirate the second you shoot one of their ships or one of their allies ships or any neutral in their space. From your IC perspective, you are nothing of the sort because CVA's laws themselves are illegal. From an OOC perspective, no one is a pirate because we are all people playing a lovely game of internet spaceships. Treat the label pirate the same way you treat the label terrorist, and take the propaganda about it IC so we can all enjoy this lovely little drama the way it was meant to be enjoyed. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 06:52:00 - [410] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 25/01/2008 06:53:08 Out of interest: Is there specific reasoning why this thread about the campaign went here rather than in the Corp and Alliance Summit? I understand why it didnt go in the IGS, but why not the IC version of this forum? It seems to me that the same opening posts in a context to which CVA could have responded IC would have seen far more interesting rhetoric. It seems a waste of some of the posters on both sides talent with words to have to handicap themselves by taking away their ability to respond with the actual reasons that drive operation deliverance and the operations against CVA. All of these conflicts are politically motivated, after all, and as we are talking RP corps, politically motivated=IC. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'

Lorna V Minmatar IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:01:00 - [411] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 05:30:23 Originally by: Gundano Jade just admit (to save another 14 pages) that this has nothing to do with role playing or politics. The only thing holding your war dec in place is an effort to save face and maintain dignity with a hint of pride. We all see it regardless of what side we are on You do realize that Hardin suggested you Providence sorts should stop responding a page ago right? No skin off my nose obviously, but you might be damaging the "unity" of citadel channel or something. As to your point though, Sev3rance is still wardecced by Star Fraction because you fired on one of our vessels back in the spring. If you want to apologize for the unwarranted aggression and pay for the ship loss (and can henceforth commit to remaining neutral in the dispute between SF and the CVA in Providence) we'd be happy to set you back to neutral and end the wardec. Let me know if this is of interest to you guys. I think I can take the liberty of speaking for all of Sev3rance just this once, and say NOT F****** INTERESTED. Lorna V
Lorna V Minmatar IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:11:00 - [412] Edited by: Lorna V on 25/01/2008 10:16:05 Edited by: Lorna V on 25/01/2008 10:13:36 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Lorna V How many neutrals died while trapped in large bubbles anchored by your corp for the use of Ushra'Khan? Almost any fool can see that that is you helping an NBSI entity shoot neutrals in Providence. How many neutrals die at the hands of IAC and the southern coalition allies of the CVA beyond the borders of Providence? Any fool can see that by flying alongside an NBSI entity you are encouraging their neutral shooting antics. (its called throwing stones in glass houses LornaV - it never works out well) Point is Bubbles are Bubbles, neutrals can get caught in bubbles of all sorts, anchored, dictor, Hics anything else. Neutrals need to take care and take responsibility for their safety sometimes. If they jump into a SF bubble SF ships will not shoot at them. UK, Sev, CVA or whoever else might. Quote: And, what baffles me more is your belief that the only way neutrals would want to shoot you in Providence is if CVA made them. You build it up as though Providence were Stalingrad and a CVA gang were waiting next door to shoot neutrals who refuse to fight. Even more implausibly, you perceive this imaginary plot to be centered around you. How overly complicated... Sev3rance shot at SF because the CVA made you. Your pilot Dreamy fired on a Star Fraction vessel because the CVA reported our pilot as a "pirate" presence in Providence. Previous to that engagement we had Sev3rance neutral with no history of aggression either way. It does rather prove my point. I'll remind you mine was a post in response to a) your claim not to have helped NBSI entities shoot neutrals in Providence and b) to express amusement at your self-indulgent, egoistic reasoning regarding why neutrals shoot you in Providence (i.e. Because CVA makes them). In response, you compare being allied with a group who is NBSI in their own space, but operates as NRDS in Providence, to anchoring bubbles for the use of an NBSI group (and on at least two occasions which I witnessed first hand, anchored the bubble solely for the use of Ushra'khan with no SF combat ships remaining). Can I just say how funny a thing it is that you claim that isn't helping an NBSI group shoot neutrals; how clearly it exposes your B-grade rhetoric for what it is? No glass, no house. Just bad logic and an inapproriate phrase. A smart person would have just said, "yeah, okay, I guess sometimes we do, but we generally try to avoid it." That wouldn't have been true, but it would have been a defensible answer. But, not you Jade. You're like a little kid who everyone knows is lying, and thinks it makes a difference that no one can quite prove it. What you, and that little kid fail to recognize, is that EVERYBODY KNOWS IT. And, the bit about Dreamy being MADE to shoot you guys, well... 1)refer to my last post, and 2)to prove your point you'd have to prove your statement. All you did was say something (i.e. CVA made Dreamy do it). That's not an argument at all. Regardless, do you realize how ridiculous it is to even suggest that he shouldn't have? It was your corp that first war dec'd CVA afterall and THEY ARE OUR ALLIES. They wouldn't need to make us shoot you anymore than they've made all the neutrals in Providence shoot at you. The only reason he wouldn't have fought alongside his allies would be if he subscribed to your overwrought brand of NRDS. But, no one cares about your stupid brand of NRDS because well frankly, it's stupid. Get used to nobody caring and stop crying about it. I fail to see what your point is with any of this. Exposing CVA as "evil tyrants"? To prove they're "not really NRDS? Everyone who lives in Providence knows better, and I doubt anyone else really cares. Yes, Jade, you are right, CVA does not appear to subscribe to your numpty brand of NRDS. Neither does anyone else. Cheers, Lorna V
duckmonster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:23:00 - [413] Edited by: duckmonster on 25/01/2008 10:23:53 CVA , is it ok, if I respect the NRDS thing and all, if I come bike riding in providence to shoot star fraction? Not the goons, just me. -----------
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:44:00 - [414] Edited by: Kabajashi San on 25/01/2008 10:45:49 To be honest, Gavrin, we disagree on that and will probably continue to do so. It has been discussed forth and back I think. "Pirate" is a term that most neuts with no insight to the RP background will understand as negative and in most cases OOC. "Terrorist" or "Slaver" is a term that anybody will understand as RP term. That's the whole point I think. Yeah I know of your famous doctrine that everything is RP. I just think it's false. You have to stay true to your story and have some respect for the ones on the other side of the story. That's all. But I'll say again: For the current type of politics UK practices in Providence (and not Eve-wide may I remind Sev) it is ok, I can live with it. SF is a different story I think. They are NRDS in every part of Eve. Plain and simple. That's why the list is bogus in my eyes when you have SF on it but not IAC. It's a list of enemies of the CVA and not a list of bad people in Providence. I know some of you already said that here in this thread, the problem is that you don't communicate it as such ingame. My problem with that to be precise. /edit: The name is UNITY, Janu Hull, and it will be praised in the legends of the Matari people until the end of times.
Kretin Arnon Amarr Path of the Immortals	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:00:00 - [415] Dang, even though I am very hostile towards the CVA "IC", this thread is really making me want to go to Providence and shoot at SF and UK for "OOC" reasons. +--------------------------+ For now I sleep and watch
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:10:00 - [416] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 25/01/2008 11:10:13 I agree that in IC terms, the CVA would see the U'K as pirates, as they fit the dictionary definition of it pretty accurately. I also agree that the U'K would not see themselves as pirates either IC or OOC. Consider the case of Sir Francis Drake. As well as playing bowls while the Spanish Armada got caught up in a storm, he and his friends attacked Spanish merchant shipping in the Caribbean. He was considered a privateer by the British, but a pirate by the Spanish. It all boils down to perspective and to semantics. Now, in Eve, the word pirate has specific unsavoury OOC connotations attached to it, in that it describes a certain NRDS play style that the U'K do not necessarily use. I can therefore completely understand why they don't like being described as such. Perhaps if they were described as corsairs or buccaneers the U'K would have fewer OOC objections? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Is forporn THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:32:00 - [417] I like fighting
Snakester Caldari Blood and Money Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:27:00 - [418] Edited by: Snakester on 25/01/2008 12:35:29 Edited by: Snakester on 25/01/2008 12:28:48 Originally by: Jade Constantine Sev3rance shot at SF because the CVA made you. Your pilot Dreamy fired on a Star Fraction vessel because the CVA reported our pilot as a "pirate" presence in Providence. Previous to that engagement we had Sev3rance neutral with no history of aggression either way. It does rather prove my point. History lesson. OK, in Tash Murkon theres a pocket of lowsec systems, we call them Sukanan (there constellation name), this was our home before we moved out, b4 us (i beleive as i was not present) Legion of Spoon resided there and kept the place rather well free of pirates for the mission runners and miners, this worked well because on some (most) days there was 50+ ppl in the main mission system. MLH and Pigs lived there also, getting on brilliantly with Spoon, and forging freindships that run deep, now my understanding is spoon moved to be mostly 0.0, pigs and mlh took up the mantle of keeping the systems pirate free, hence sev3rance was born, as an NRDS/anti pirate entity. Now onto this act, it is in my eyes your pilot would not of been shot at by anyone in -7- unless (A)He was piratng. or (B)He was shooting at a freindly.Now both of us will (and have) banged our heads against eachother over this countless times, and we agree to disagree.We cannot disprove eachothers arguments as u say u 100% beleive your pilot and i 100% beleive my case so thats a gibbon. I prefer to think it was the case (B) he was firing on a freindly to -7-, in which case our ROE comes into play, as in we protect our friends.You claiming that Dreamy asked in "The Citadel" channels (Which i add is for Providence intel, not Sukadan intel) is beyond me tbh, in the heat of battle, ships are lost in a matter of secounds, and to litterally type, then wait for a reply would take to long, we both know this, with all due respect, Dreamy would of just gone in guns blazing (as would i) if one of his friends was under attack. Now the reason i said i think it was (B) is because u state he wouldn't of been pirating so he would of been shooting a red to u, maybe a CVA pilot in nase, in which were freinds as ive stated, the flaw in your argument is, why would he of used a providence intel channel for sukanan intel when we (at that time) never went to providence and when we had our own SUDAKAN intel channel, your argument falls short there. So, from my findings, i beleive your war against -7- boils down to the fact u do not like us helping our friends. Where your own ROE hold u back from helping your friends if/when there flying with you and a neutral to u starts firing on your freind but DOESN'T fire on you, you cannot help, where we in -7- hold friendship to the highest regard and would just dive in there and help.I for one feel sorry for your freinds if this ever happens, and if (god forbid) we become friends and this happens and u don't help me, i'd turn my guns on youe next. Thank you for reading, peace out. Snake. EDIT:- swapped domain to tash murkon, duh me :). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:00:00 - [419] Edited by: Kabajashi San on 25/01/2008 14:06:59 Bucanneers, corsairs, freebooters, raparee, flibustier, forban, terrorists, subhumans, warmongers, madman, heathen, heretic, moor, pagan, infidel, paiien, you name it, I answer it. Be creative. Just keep it IC. (Can't speak for my alliance here). /edit: ecumer d'espace, biekanier, Freibeuter, SeerSuber, vrijbuter, kaper, zeerover, sj÷r÷vare ... There should be a latin expression too.
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:13:00 - [420] Originally by: Kabajashi San Edited by: Kabajashi San on 25/01/2008 14:06:59 Bucanneers, corsairs, freebooters, raparee, flibustier, forban, terrorists, subhumans, warmongers, madman, heathen, heretic, moor, pagan, infidel, paiien, you name it, I answer it. Be creative. Just keep it IC. (Can't speak for my alliance here). /edit: ecumer d'espace, biekanier, Freibeuter, SeerSuber, vrijbuter, kaper, zeerover, sj÷r÷vare ... There should be a latin expression too. How about dogs? ;) ----------------------------------------------

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:39:00 - [421] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 14:39:22 Originally by: Snakester long post snipped for brevity + So, from my findings, i beleive your war against -7- boils down to the fact u do not like us helping our friends. Where your own ROE hold u back from helping your friends if/when there flying with you and a neutral to u starts firing on your freind but DOESN'T fire on you, you cannot help, where we in -7- hold friendship to the highest regard and would just dive in there and help.I for one feel sorry for your freinds if this ever happens, and if (god forbid) we become friends and this happens and u don't help me, i'd turn my guns on youe next. What it all boils down to is you took unilateral hostile action against one of our ships Snakester. There is no twisting out of that. The reason you feel you were justified in shooting one of our ships is irrelevant to the argument. We had no previous history of mutual aggression and we were treating you as neutral. If you felt that an attack on CVA was an attack on you then thats your prerogative as indeed it is to make yourselves targets by committing aggression against our ships. Don't expect us to excuse such an attack though. So lets drop the presence from your members that Sev3rance are the "victims" here. You chose to make us enemies the moment Dreamy decided to shoot at a SF ship. Don't complain about it when we wardec you and scourge your claimed space for four months or try to pretend to be "in the right". "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:47:00 - [422] Originally by: Lorna V Get used to nobody caring and stop crying about it. I fail to see what your point is with any of this. Exposing CVA as "evil tyrants"? To prove they're "not really NRDS? Everyone who lives in Providence knows better, and I doubt anyone else really cares. Yes, Jade, you are right, CVA does not appear to subscribe to your numpty brand of NRDS. I'm simply having a debate here LornaV. I think its fairly clear which side is getting overwrought and bent of shape on the issue. I'm happy to discuss the politics of the situation with anyone who can keep a civil tongue in the head so I'd thank you to use a little less furious rhetoric while describing things we don't really disagree on. 1. Yes, we agree. Sev3rance fired first on a SF ship. Dreamy committed your alliance to hostility against SF. 2. Yes, we agree. Sev3rance took this step not because SF fired on you, but because SF was fighting CVA. 3. Yes, we agree. Sev3rance considers CVA standings to be its own and is fully a part of the Providence regime. 4. Yes, we agree. Sev3rance is thus an entirely appropriate target for our wardec and continued attacks. 5. Yes, we agree. CVA NRDS is not the same as SF NRDS, we respect neutrality they do not. 6. Yes, we agree. CVA policies in Providence are about control and uniformity, not freedom. So really LornaV, that was very easy. There is nothing to get worked up about "I might not have meant anything by it"
Requiescat True Foundation Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:54:00 - [423] Originally by: Snakester antipirate logic It doesn't work, btw. Any other part of EVE, everything is NBSI. Why don't you just drop the pretense and say you were defending your space? NBSI is a legitimate way of consolidating claimed space through force, ousting pirates and unfriendlies and whatnot. If someone wants to fly in your space they can contact your alliance's high command for standings, very easy, very difficult to get around in the event of a dispute. But what you're trying to do here is pretend you're the good guy, which you're pretty much not. No matter what you say, Dreamy couldn't have been red at the time you shot him, so you were in effect not practicing NRDS. Very simple. Chest-beating is one thing but blind denial of facts and manifest evidence is just silly, however this is CAOD, so... quack Victory - Honor = Loss
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:00:00 - [424] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 15:06:59 Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri The idea that being called pirates is somehow bad RP on CVA's part is in my opinion absurd. It doesn't compute. You aren't called a pirate in real life, you are a pirate according to in game actions. Therefore the label is as in character as those actions were, even if the pilot calling you that does not make said distinction. If its in character, its not absolute. Its a title used to categorize and unify opposition, which makes perfect sense for the occupying power of a region to do to ALL its enemies. So the idea that being called a pirate by CVA is CVA not RPing, seems off. I am, frankly, sick of the OOC attacks on CVA. They are boring. It is a bloody good drama to watch, if you can step away from it and take the titles your enemies give you with a grain of salt. Gaven, seriously, take a step back and read what you've written. This thread is full of lovely discussion and debate that mostly spins from the fact that we have described the Providence regime as an institutionally-deceitful standings-enclourist-tyranny while the CVA + friends want to describe it as a promised land of milk and honey. This is the exact same issue really. I'm not saying the CVA are "bad people ooc" because they lie about UK being pirates. I'm saying they are bad people and nasty deceitful slavers IC because they lie about UK being pirates. I'm presenting arguments about the various nasty and deceitful things that the CVA regime does in providence to support my core argument that they are institutionally-deceitful and profoundly dishonest. My arguments about them wilfully misrepresenting UK and SF on their Red List for example. My arguments about them knowing perfectly well that "neutrals" will shoot people on their red list. My arguments about them pretending Providence is freespace when it isn't. My arguments about them requiring smaller entities subordinate themselves to CVA standings. Etc etc etc. This isn't an attack on the CVA's "roleplay ethos" or "character as roleplayers". I'm choosing to understand that the CVA are playing a tyrannical authoritarian state that force lesser entities to submit to its standings regime and is prepared to use propaganda, smear, falsehood, lies and deceit 24/7 to maintain that rotten edifice. Most authoritarian governments in our own earth's history behave like this. Why would anyone be surprised that a government founded by Amarrian Racist Slavers directly from the game background would behave any differently? Its crazy really. But its roleplay Gaven, thats my understanding of their roleplay. Why is this any "worse" than yourself "understanding/believing" that UK are pirates rather than freedom fighters? Quote: So from a perspective that looks at CVA as the legal holder of the region, you are technically a pirate the second you shoot one of their ships or one of their allies ships or any neutral in their space. And from the perspective of an anarcho-capitalist revolutionary absolutely everything I've said about the nature of the CVA regime in Providence is true as well. Are you saying the various CVA people are wrong to have come here and debated the point with me? Quote: Treat the label pirate the same way you treat the label terrorist, and take the propaganda about it IC so we can all enjoy this lovely little drama the way it was meant to be enjoyed. It might actually be good advise, so I'm hoping you can take the label "institutionally deceitful top-down standings enclosurist tyranny" as an appropropriate label for the CVA right? "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:03:00 - [425] Originally by: Requiescat It doesn't work, btw. Any other part of EVE, everything is NBSI. Why don't you just drop the pretense and say you were defending your space? NBSI is a legitimate way of consolidating claimed space through force, ousting pirates and unfriendlies and whatnot. If someone wants to fly in your space they can contact your alliance's high command for standings, very easy, very difficult to get around in the event of a dispute. But what you're trying to do here is pretend you're the good guy, which you're pretty much not. No matter what you say, Dreamy couldn't have been red at the time you shot him, so you were in effect not practicing NRDS. Very simple. Chest-beating is one thing but blind denial of facts and manifest evidence is just silly, however this is CAOD, so... quack Thats pretty much our argument Requiescat thank you. Its not so much the fact they choose to shoot us from neutral in defense of the CVA regime that causes all this debate. Its the fact they try to pretend to be NRDS anti-pirate while doing it. For the record though (and I'll grant Snakesters account is a bit confusing) Dreamy was the Sev3rance pilot that fired upon a Star Fraction pilot Bacchanalian originally to start this war. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:12:00 - [426] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 25/01/2008 15:17:37 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 25/01/2008 15:12:05 Originally by: Jade Constantine Thats pretty much our argument Requiescat thank you. Its not so much the fact they choose to shoot us from neutral in defense of the CVA regime that causes all this debate. Its the fact they try to pretend to be NRDS anti-pirate while doing it. Quote: It might actually be good advise, so I'm hoping you can take the label Institutionally Deceitful Top-Down Standings Enclosurist Tyranny as an appropriate label for the CVA right? It's not a case of pretending to be NRDS and anti-pirate, it's a case of them actually being NRDS and anti-pirate. It's not a case of them being an OOC tyranny either. I really don't see what's so controversial about producing a friend or foe list for the benefit of neutrals - after all, it's something that Jericho Fraction did when they were in the NVA. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:19:00 - [427] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 15:21:05 Originally by: Rodj Blake It's not a case of pretending to be NRDS and anti-pirate, it's a case of them actually being NRDS and anti-pirate. They simply aren't Rodj. You and I could argue this on and off for the next 20 pages. But you are only convincing your own side at this point. NRDS is meaningless as a term when reds can be added as a result of aggression vs a completely different 3rd party. If I claimed SF was NRDS but I could make anybody red immediately without discussion or warning if they "flamed me on CAOD" then how much value is that NRDS claim really? If I claimed SF was NRDS but I could make anybody red immediately without discussion or warning if they attacked some random other corp the other side of the cluster how valid does that make my claim? This is the point Rodj. The criteria by which Reds can be added to the "NRDS" standings lists of these CVA "holder" powers is so broad and unrestrictive as to make use of the term NRDS as anything other than a deceitful marketing stunt entirely void. Sev3rance did not become our enemy because they interrupted Bacchanalian "pirating." Sev3rannce became our enemy because they were defending the territorial interests of the CVA by aggressing a SF vessel under sentry gun fire. They fired at an alliance who had them set neutral under the gate guns! This isn't NRDS, its not anti-pirate. Its simply territorial aggression in the interests of the ruling power. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:29:00 - [428] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 15:21:05 Originally by: Rodj Blake It's not a case of pretending to be NRDS and anti-pirate, it's a case of them actually being NRDS and anti-pirate. They simply aren't Rodj. You and I could argue this on and off for the next 20 pages. But you are only convincing your own side at this point. NRDS is meaningless as a term when reds can be added as a result of aggression vs a completely different 3rd party. NRDS is completely meaningful when the way in which someone is set to red is publicised. CVA have stated time and time again that aggression against one of their allies or a neutral in Providence is sufficient to get you added to their red list. This highlights one of the key differences between the SF and the CVA - namely that the CVA help out their friends while the SF are apparently willing to let their friends be massacred until such time as they're shot at. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:45:00 - [429] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 15:46:30 Originally by: Rodj Blake NRDS is completely meaningful when the way in which someone is set to red is publicised. Thats the point though, its not publicized, its triumphed as "NRDS Come on we love neutrals in Providence and we're anti pirate too (everything is sweetness and light!)" Quote: CVA have stated time and time again that aggression against one of their allies or a neutral in Providence is sufficient to get you added to their red list. Which is in effect standings enclosurism. The example on this occasion is ridiculously, simplistically clear. Star Fraction had a war against CVA, SF pilots prosecuted that war. A previously neutral Sev3rance pilot chose to aggress a SF ship beneath the sentry guns from neutral. I really can't see how you can argue this is in any way an NRDS/anti-pirate action because it simply isn't. Its defending an empire and falling into line and shooting people not because they are your enemy, but because the ruling caste tell you they must be shot. Quote: This highlights one of the key differences between the SF and the CVA - namely that the CVA help out their friends while the SF are apparently willing to let their friends be massacred until such time as they're shot at. Our friends don't "get massacred". Since they are independent capable and free-willed starship captains they have no need to subordinate their will and freedom beneath the Amarrian slavers for protection. We don't make "friends" unless those friends are "equals" and as "equals" those friends are big and strong enough to look after themselves in disputes with 3rd parties that are none of our business. If a 3rd party sees fit to attack US as well as our "friends" then they are choosing to fight us all. It really is very simple and a clear case of individual responsibility and honest self government. The fact you don't understand this Rodj speaks volumes to the degree you yourself have been swept up by the regressive memetics of institutional deceit and self-deceiving doubtlethink inside the greater CVA community. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:01:00 - [430] It occurs to me that if this were anyone else saying this, 99% of the people in this forum (aka Goonswarm), would be trolling the living crap out of Jade's bitter tears at being shot at by people in 0.0 who don't like her organization... Behold, the power of walls of text.

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:12:00 - [431] Originally by: Janu Hull It occurs to me that if this were anyone else saying this, 99% of the people in this forum (aka Goonswarm), would be trolling the living crap out of Jade's bitter tears at being shot at by people in 0.0 who don't like her organization... Behold, the power of walls of text. Behold the power of keeping one's temper, refusing to be bullied, and simply addressing the points raised in a clear and articulate fashion to manufacture a cogent and compelling argument. JF/SF has existed in this game and conducted political debate on this level since the beginning. Its our sphere of engagement and we relish the challenge. Anyone who disagrees is free to debate and their arguments will be dealt with and judged on the merits of their ability. And if anybody feels we're too wordy and ephemeral and can't possibly be any good at fighting ... come find us in Providence, we're based in Dihra and raid into Sev3rance/CVA space most evenings. Goons amuse me Janu. Their forum arts don't work on people who don't lose their temper and as a result they tend to avoid the threads where they are on a highway to nothing. They are welcome to come here and debate, or welcome to come to Providence and fight. But they'll never find any pleasure in trolling SF I assure you. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:18:00 - [432] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 25/01/2008 16:19:23 Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 15:46:30 Originally by: Rodj Blake NRDS is completely meaningful when the way in which someone is set to red is publicised. Thats the point though, its not publicized, its triumphed as "NRDS Come on we love neutrals in Providence and we're anti pirate too (everything is sweetness and light!)" Quote: CVA have stated time and time again that aggression against one of their allies or a neutral in Providence is sufficient to get you added to their red list. Which is in effect standings enclosurism. The example on this occasion is ridiculously, simplistically clear. Star Fraction had a war against CVA, SF pilots prosecuted that war. A previously neutral Sev3rance pilot chose to aggress a SF ship beneath the sentry guns from neutral. I really can't see how you can argue this is in any way an NRDS/anti-pirate action because it simply isn't. Its defending an empire and falling into line and shooting people not because they are your enemy, but because the ruling caste tell you they must be shot. Quote: This highlights one of the key differences between the SF and the CVA - namely that the CVA help out their friends while the SF are apparently willing to let their friends be massacred until such time as they're shot at. Our friends don't "get massacred". Since they are independent capable and free-willed starship captains they have no need to subordinate their will and freedom beneath the Amarrian slavers for protection. We don't make "friends" unless those friends are "equals" and as "equals" those friends are big and strong enough to look after themselves in disputes with 3rd parties that are none of our business. If a 3rd party sees fit to attack US as well as our "friends" then they are choosing to fight us all. It really is very simple and a clear case of individual responsibility and honest self government. The fact you don't understand this Rodj speaks volumes to the degree you yourself have been swept up by the regressive memetics of institutional deceit and self-deceiving doubtlethink inside the greater CVA community. But Jade, if the CVA's standings policy is so restrictive, why did JF consider the publishing of their own alliance's friend or foe list to be of some benefit to neutrals? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Popperr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:34:00 - [433] Actually Jade, we have no desire to read countless words on nothing written by someone who is irrelevant, excluding their ability to compose said words.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:40:00 - [434] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 16:41:32 Originally by: Rodj Blake But Jade, if the CVA's standings policy is so restrictive, why did JF consider the publishing of their own alliance's friend or foe list to be of some benefit to neutrals? You are talking about the NVA back in 2003 right? When JF was a member corp in another alliance run by a council of equal voting members who decided policy. Well back then we tried that kind of alliance democracy and did our best to resolve things from within. To be fair the FOF list truly did have "pirate" aggressors on it (rather than the mix of pirates and ideological enemies that the CVA try to foist on people) and NVA wasn't interested in provoking NRDS neutrals into shooting each other even back then. But ultimately the NVA experiment failed and let to self-interested corp ceo's inside the alliance structure leading a counter revolution and closing space to protect their mining profits at the time. We learned the lesson. Collectivist political thought tends to the regressive and power does corrupt. Just like the CVA today, the NVA that turned into the PA had become an organization that was institutionally deceitful and told the most appalling lies to its own people to keep its leaders in power. There is a huge history and scandal behind the PA's misdeeds that led to the GNW and ultimately (several years later) to the ex leaders of the PA coming public on CAOD and explaining exactly what lies had been told and by whom. So you make my point for me Rodj. Collectivism and authority over standings setting regimes leads to corruption and its only in the freedom of individual negotiation and meaningful one to one political interactions that you can get honest dealing and forthright appreciation of genuine NRDS freespace. But you really don't do yourself any favours here. Since in the bright period at the founding of the NVA the FOF list had 100% neutral-shooting NBSI entities on it. (those who were in the main the pirate allies hired by TTI to scourge Venal after ragnar lost). We didn't have rival NRDS organisations that we felt the need to manipulate into shooting other NRDS organisations as CVA continues to do right to this present day. (I'm assuming by the way you accept every other point I have made previous to this post Rodj?) "I might not have meant anything by it"
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:41:00 - [435] Originally by: Jade Constantine Goons amuse me Janu. Their forum arts don't work on people who don't lose their temper and as a result they tend to avoid the threads where they are on a highway to nothing. They are welcome to come here and debate, or welcome to come to Providence and fight. But they'll never find any pleasure in trolling SF I assure you. This statement holds if you accept that never in your last sentence as an absolute. Since you are incapable, by your own writings further up the page, of speaking for every free-willed spaceship captain in Star Fraction, this is not an absolute. tl;dr Goons not give two hoots about Star Fraction.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:44:00 - [436] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 25/01/2008 16:46:38 Had a neutral corp with an NBSI policy entered Venal, would JF have supported them being added to the list of foes? And no Jade, me not directly responding to one of your points does not automatically mean that I agree with it. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:53:00 - [437] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 25/01/2008 16:53:56 Originally by: Kabajashi San /edit: ecumer d'espace, biekanier, Freibeuter, SeerSuber, vrijbuter, kaper, zeerover, sj÷r÷vare ... There should be a latin expression too. pirata :P I just think instead of protesting about how it puts you in a bad place OOC that you could make the same protest in an IC manner and make it all more fun. And Jade, what CVA space is is a Eetension of the Amarr Empire. In which Pod Pilot Holders have occupied the region and rule it according to their laws. They are a Slaving Amarrian Alliance with a firm belief in the ideology and expansion of the Empire. They are also an industrial alliance that firmly believes that allowing neutrals to use their space is the best course of action economically. THey are authoritarian, believing that they have the power of lawful reign over their space. So try: Imperialist, Free-Market Industrialist, Amarrian, Authoritarian NRDS Defensive Alliance. They certainly aren't freespace, and would be insulted at the idea IC. They are certainly a police state, they do not broke the breaching of their laws. This is not IC deceitful, do you really expect anything else from Amarrians? The thing is, they do believe that their policies make providence a more inviting place for neutrals. This is an OOC belief as much as an IC belief. They think that providence is an easier environment for new players to enter into 0.0. They are, for the most part, correct. Though you certainly can disagree that easier for neutrals to survive without being able to defend themselves is a good thing. You might even have a point, as it slows down the growth in ability of those players who would have made it in 0.0 regardless. Thing is, that is a side effect of CVA IC policies. Its a nice OOC benefit and it is something to be proud of OOC. But the IC benefit is the fact that lots of neutrals mean a larger economy for CVA industrialists to exploit and that lots of people who have good feelings towards the CVA mean lots of people with a vested interest in helping the CVA defend their space. Its only remotely conceivable to think it is deceitful if you think that the nice environment for neutrals is the main point.(Even then it is iffy.) Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Zor Chayne Hedion University	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:57:00 - [438] Jade, I started reading your posts and had to say to my buddy, "this guy talks a whole bunch, but he doesn't really say much". While I'm sure that's a habit you've picked up from your BoB buddies, you could reduce the quantity of your posts by about 95% without losing any quality. I don't mean to be rude or to troll you, especially given that you almost have a good grasp of English. On the whole I enjoy your posting, if only for it's misguided insight, but you should plan what you want to say and keep it to the point. Oops, better get myself into a corp quick sharp! -- :(
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:25:00 - [439] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri The thing is, they do believe that their policies make providence a more inviting place for neutrals. This is an OOC belief as much as an IC belief. They think that providence is an easier environment for new players to enter into 0.0. They are, for the most part, correct. Though you certainly can disagree that easier for neutrals to survive without being able to defend themselves is a good thing. You might even have a point, as it slows down the growth in ability of those players who would have made it in 0.0 regardless. Thing is, that is a side effect of CVA IC policies. Its a nice OOC benefit and it is something to be proud of OOC. To me this highlights the Amarrian bloc's problem, and why they mistakenly think there's some kind of OOC hatred towards them. They want what they've built to be objectively "good", outside of the subjective IC conflict. So they are sensitive to attacks on their deceitful practices and feel that their methods should be beyond criticism because, to them, they achieve a universally "good" goal of helping neutrals survive in 0.0. It seems to me that some (some!) Amarrian Bloc posters here are suggesting that they should only be criticized for being "slavers" and other background story epithets and that criticism of their standings system in Providence is somehow 'off-limits'. Which I find very silly.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:51:00 - [440] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 17:53:17 Originally by: Rodj Blake Had a neutral corp with an NBSI policy entered Venal, would JF have supported them being added to the list of foes? Its entirely irrelevant to the current debate. Since back then JF was trying to work within a collectivist pre-alliance structure and was trying to make a patrolled freespace model work in Venal. It didn't work. It failed, NVA failed and became the standings enclosurist PA. Just like CFS failed, just like another other liberal-minded patrolled freespace concept has failed at the alliance level. CVA have avoided this kind of failure by adopting a virtual NBSI policy, NAPing surrounding NBSI entities, and ensured they have direct control over the standings regime of every resident in Providence. "Freespace cannot work as long as the entities there have freedom to set their own standings" as a motto of the CVA domination in Providence. Your question therefore has no purpose aside from spuriously changing the subject: and thats the current CVA standings-enclosurist regime in Providence. All I will say to you is repeat that JF has never supported forcing NRDS "neutrals" into conflict with other NRDS "neutrals", and that is something the CVA routinely practice and that is the issue we are discussing. Address it or duck the issue at your choice Rodj. Either option will be noted. "I might not have meant anything by it"

Feldarath Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:57:00 - [441] This topic has now officialy failed
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 18:11:00 - [442] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 18:12:10 Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri So try: Imperialist, Free-Market Industrialist, Amarrian, Authoritarian NRDS Defensive Alliance. They certainly aren't freespace, and would be insulted at the idea IC. They are certainly a police state, they do not broke the breaching of their laws. This is not IC deceitful, do you really expect anything else from Amarrians? Thing is Gaven, by your earlier arguments re UK and being called "pirates". I don't need the CVA's permission to call them what I think is an appropriate title. They are imperialist yes. But I don't consider them free-market since they I don't consider them proper NRDS either. They are certainly authoritarian (hence the lack of NRDS credibility.) I personally (and from an IC perspective besides) consider that they are a standings-enclosurist tyranny (they literally enforce standings on smaller power by threat of military force) and they certainly are authoritarian "do what we say or we'll shoot you" = tyranny. They are also systematically and institutionally deceitful - but then what authoritarian government isn't? I know the rank and file CVA find it shocking that I'd dare to suggest their their leaders and PR people don't always tell the truth but really, they don't. Here over the last 14 pages of this thread we've heard some amazing claims from the CVA that nobody in their right mind can consider objective truth: - CVA didn't benefit from the IAC/Goon intervention against TRI - CVA don't force standings on people - CVA don't encourage neutrals to shoot neutrals - CVA didn't benefit from IAC intervention against UK - CVA don't knowing misleed neutrals about the true status of NRDS enemies - CVA don't benefit from neutrals shooting their political enemies etc etc etc. All this stuff is spin and propaganda. Its the kind of thing any authoritarian government does. It presents an image of itself as the holy-god-given-sovereign-government of a region and anyone who opposes that must be wrongheaded, evil, or criminal. But it is institutionally-deceitful and it has been proven multiple times over the course of this thread to be the case. But the CVA is roleplaying institutionally-deceitful amarrian supremacist slavers with a penchant for Machiavellian divide-and-conquer manipulation thrown in. They know it, we know it, where it just gets a little silly is when some of the CVA footsoldiers get a little too carried away with their own propaganda and start really believing they are "the good guys" in real life - and then tempers get a little frayed and they show some genuine irritation at those matari freedom fighters and anarcho-capitalist revolutionaries pointing out the "evils" in their internet spaceship game personnas. Chill basically. The CVA are excellent villains. Time for them to relish the role a little more. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 18:13:00 - [443] Quote: All I will say to you is repeat that JF has never supported forcing NRDS "neutrals" into conflict with other NRDS "neutrals", and that is something the CVA routinely practice and that is the issue we are discussing. This is inaccurate for a variety of reasons. NRDS does not make you a neutral. It removes a point of conflict, that is all. That is where the disjoint in this whole discussion is, really. CVA allows neutrals to shoot those CVA considers hostile. NRDS or not. So your allegation with a few changes could be made accurate. "CVA supports allowing neutrals to enter into conflict with those they consider hostile" works "CVA supports forcing neutrals to enter into conflict with those they consider hostile" Is willfully inaccurate. NRDS has nothing to do with it. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 18:18:00 - [444] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Quote: All I will say to you is repeat that JF has never supported forcing NRDS "neutrals" into conflict with other NRDS "neutrals", and that is something the CVA routinely practice and that is the issue we are discussing. This is inaccurate for a variety of reasons. NRDS does not make you a neutral. It removes a point of conflict, that is all. That is where the disjoint in this whole discussion is, really. To pick a swift example from the ether: We were Neutral to an organization called "Twisted Infection" (and other organization called Omni Confederation) about a week ago. They described themselves as NRDS. We describe ourselves as NRDS. There was no previous history of conflict between SF and these organizations. When our ships met in space in Providence SF did not fire first or make any aggressive move against these people. Twisted Infection and Omni Confederation however fired on our ships and later in local explained that they only did it because the CVA had told them to set us red. We were neutral to these people before the CVA asked them to set us Red. Therefore the point is proven. CVA routinely force other NRDS entities to fight us. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Ztang Canary Amarr McDuff Industries	Posted - 2008.01.25 18:29:00 - [445] Amarr Victor! I must admit,this discussion quite amuses me. I know CVA as an honorable group of pilots, and much more..led by a true patriot! A man with a vision, and who dares live it. CVA chooses to run its space guided by certain rules, the much debated NRDS principle. Thousands of pilots benefit from this, including the cleansing of pirate infestations. Whether Star Fraction, here represented by the ever flowing mouth of miss Constantine, or others like this or not...is highly irrelevant and furthermore inconsequential. What miss Constantine and others fail to see, is that it works..demonstrated by the thriving of Providence. I dare say..it is furthermore demonstrated by the fact that CVA officials have effectively ignored this discussion, no doubt understanding it has no effect on the major populace. I shall just go on to suggest that miss Constantine perhaps should divert her energies into creating something a fraction as succesful, instead of devoting all her time to try, however fruitless and insignificant, to defacing CVA. Furthermore, who the Jita is miss Constantine to come here and posture to even begin to understand the Amarr way. She cannot, she is not worthy....I would perhaps, but only if desperate, employ her as a slave to my slaves. I would have to be desperate though! Amarr Victor! ************* Ztang Canary
Conlin Gallente Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.25 19:16:00 - [446] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 25/01/2008 06:39:44 Originally by: Conlin You lost the plot once again Gaven , it was due to cva we got called pirates , and it was cva , yes even pie that were guilty of it also , its not pc anymore so you try to manipulate nuetrals and use them as a scapegoat . Some of the old CVA still rp Gaven. Your play on words are pathetic to say the least , oh and why do we shoot nuetrals ?. CVA & friends use nuetral alt corps ....fact ! . No. I think you are the one who missed the point. I understand perfectly well that CVA and its allies labeled you pirates. I fail to see the problem inherent in this. The idea that being called pirates is somehow bad RP on CVA's part is in my opinion absurd. It doesn't compute. You aren't called a pirate in real life, you are a pirate according to in game actions. Therefore the label is as in character as those actions were, even if the pilot calling you that does not make said distinction. If its in character, its not absolute. Its a title used to categorize and unify opposition, which makes perfect sense for the occupying power of a region to do to ALL its enemies. So the idea that being called a pirate by CVA is CVA not RPing, seems off. I am, frankly, sick of the OOC attacks on CVA. They are boring. It is a bloody good drama to watch, if you can step away from it and take the titles your enemies give you with a grain of salt. I mean really, how is it possible that being called pirate is worse than being called terrorist? Both are pejoratives given to you by your enemies for your in game actions and in character ideologies. Instead of screaming OOC about how OOC the title is, scream IC about how you are insulted that the CVA allies would so underestimate you to think that you were "mere" pirates. Finally, you might look up what being a pirate means. Its not some absolute. Its an entirely relative thing based on perspective. From CVA allies perspective, you are certainly a pirate and a terrorist. From your perspective you are fighting for ideals and not a pirate at all. Being a pirate involves illegal assaults on ships according to every definition of the word I have seen that doesn't involve internet downloading. Nothing about neutral. The key word is illegal. Illegal is a slippery word, however. It rests on concepts of right to govern and such. So from a perspective that looks at CVA as the legal holder of the region, you are technically a pirate the second you shoot one of their ships or one of their allies ships or any neutral in their space. From your IC perspective, you are nothing of the sort because CVA's laws themselves are illegal. From an OOC perspective, no one is a pirate because we are all people playing a lovely game of internet spaceships. Treat the label pirate the same way you treat the label terrorist, and take the propaganda about it IC so we can all enjoy this lovely little drama the way it was meant to be enjoyed. Spin pure & simple . So the nuets that cva have killed in the past makes cva pirates then ? . No wait before you say it ,I,II say it for you ," Any nuetrals that were killed by cva was unintentional , blah de blah ! " . You like the spin so much thought I,d add a bit more for ya
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 19:22:00 - [447] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri "CVA supports allowing neutrals to enter into conflict with those they consider hostile" works "CVA supports forcing neutrals to enter into conflict with those they consider hostile" Is willfully inaccurate. NRDS has nothing to do with it. Actually the most accurate way of stating the situation is "CVA lies to neutrals and tells them to consider an NRDS alliance hostile." Everything else that happens follows from that.
Daerkannon Shimmerscale Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.01.25 20:22:00 - [448] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Actually the most accurate way of stating the situation is "CVA lies to neutrals and tells them to consider an NRDS alliance hostile." Everything else that happens follows from that. I can't believe that I'm wading into this. It must be a really slow day at work. If you want to get even more accurate, I wold try "The CVA doesn't go out of its way to explain that there are one or two entities on the list of hundreds of hostile entities that are technically NRDS and won't shoot you unless you shoot them first." I suppose that you could argue that that is lying by omission, but you make it sound like the CVA is maliciously slandering Star Fraction when, in fact, you are merely victims of bureaucracy, laziness and the fact that the combat pilots in the area want more things to shoot, not less. Frankly after wading through 10 pages of this I'd shoot Jade just for the 15 seconds of silence. I liked him a lot more back in the CFS days. --- Honest officer, the dwarf was on fire when I got here! Can't find a mechanical engineering agent? Need a non-Caldari Navy agent? http://www.eve-agents.com/ for all your agent needs!
Kai Dorfman SkillzKillz TWISTED INFECTION	Posted - 2008.01.25 20:48:00 - [449] Edited by: Kai Dorfman on 25/01/2008 21:00:48 Edited by: Kai Dorfman on 25/01/2008 20:59:15 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Quote: All I will say to you is repeat that JF has never supported forcing NRDS "neutrals" into conflict with other NRDS "neutrals", and that is something the CVA routinely practice and that is the issue we are discussing. This is inaccurate for a variety of reasons. NRDS does not make you a neutral. It removes a point of conflict, that is all. That is where the disjoint in this whole discussion is, really. To pick a swift example from the ether: We were Neutral to an organization called "Twisted Infection" (and other organization called Omni Confederation) about a week ago. They described themselves as NRDS. We describe ourselves as NRDS. There was no previous history of conflict between SF and these organizations. When our ships met in space in Providence SF did not fire first or make any aggressive move against these people. Twisted Infection and Omni Confederation however fired on our ships and later in local explained that they only did it because the CVA had told them to set us red. We were neutral to these people before the CVA asked them to set us Red. Therefore the point is proven. CVA routinely force other NRDS entities to fight us. Hi Guys, I am Kai Dorfman And Senior Diplomat to Twisted infection. I just want to Make this very clear! 1. Star fraction were set red Because they had engaged us in the Kari Pipe and killed a few of our Members while we were moving to providence. 2. We are not CVA or Sylph Pets.. we are here volentarily. If we did not want to be here i assure you we wouldnt! CVA and its allies we personally feel are awsome guys. This is thier SOV granted, but they freely have been willing to help our alliance get started. I personally have a lot of respect for these guys. When i asked for escorts i got escorts, when we wanted to engage on pvp ops and kill they gave us assistance. In no way have CVA ever threatened our presence here, or have asked us to set anyone to red. They have been incredibly helpful in our growth and for that we give them, paxton and sylph our respect. We do this of our own free will. If people Come into Providence and fire on anyone, CVA, sylph, neuts or anyone they are not respecting our law of NRDS. They will immediately be set red and fired upon. If Reds to us want to open channels and stop fighting in Providence we would glady set them neut. While in providence they will respect the NRDS at all times or we will fight to the death with anyone disobeying that law. You dont want to be red to us.. Stop entering Prov and Firing on our aliies and friends in thier. you want to kill CVA fine. Just dont come in prov and do it and we wont shoot you. We do not wish to make enemies, we would rather get along. But while neuts and blues in Providence are under attack we will fight to protect them. Regards Kai Dorfman Senior Diplomat this system works and we respect it.
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 20:49:00 - [450] My complaint about OOC and IC is that CVA is basically unable to defend themselves with their actual motivations here because this is the wrong forum for the IC issues to be brought up. Just like the IGS would be the wrong forum for this thread. Im curious why the IC version of COAD is not being used for this sort of thread. Is it issues of audience? Why not, in the future, let Amarrians be villains by putting your attacks in an environment that those of us playing Amarr feel comfortable being in character in. That is really all I have to say on that. So on to the politics. Quote: We were neutral to these people before the CVA asked them to set us Red. Therefore the point is proven. CVA routinely force other NRDS entities to fight us. Please prove how CVA forced them to attack you. CVA might suggest that you are a target worth shooting, but how is that forcing neutrals to do anything? I understand your feelings of standings enclosure. Though I disagree that it is a bad thing. Certainly, though, because you attack the holding power of a region you tend to get on their bad side, and once you are labelled an enemy that label will spread to their defensive alliance, regardless of the reason for the label. Quote: So the nuets that cva have killed in the past makes cva pirates then ? Wink. No wait before you say it ,I,II say it for you ," Any nuetrals that were killed by cva was unintentional , blah de blah ! " . You like the spin so much thought I,d add a bit more for ya Wink First, you would do well to remember I am not CVA. But no. The definition of Piracy is decidedly not killing neutrals. It is illegal destruction or theft in space/at sea. Does not matter if you are officially hostile or not. Obviously, if the CVA is the governing power, they decide what is or is not illegal in their space. They have decided that shooting neutrals in their space is an illegal act. So if they deem the issue of their pilots shooting neutrals to actually be a case of them shooting neutrals that will be an internal discipline matter. What makes you a pirate in providence is the act of breaking CVA law. Whether that makes you a pirate elsewhere is entirely debatable. I would tend towards an answer of "hell no." A pirate in Matari space is not by default a pirate in Amarrian space, and vice versa. One man's hero is another man's villain. Of course, CVA is in the right because God is on their side. Quote: Actually the most accurate way of stating the situation is "CVA lies to neutrals and tells them to consider an NRDS alliance hostile." Everything else that happens follows from that. How is CVA lying? To CVA you certainly are hostile. Since you are hostile CVA has no obligation to protect you the way they would a neutral. The list that means "Kill on Sight" to CVA and allies means "Legal Target" to everyone else. If everyone else wants to chose to respect the fact that you wont shoot them unless you take hostile action against them, then everyone else can chose to do that. Of course, EVE being what it is, they often choose to shoot you. NRDS does not specify that you cannot put targets as hostile unless they shoot you first. It is not even implied. And certainly, you have never followed that strict a belief with SF. If they are not allowed to shoot you for political reasons and still be NRDS, why are you allowed to shoot people for political reasons and still be "true" NRDS? Or are you denying that "I don't like you because my friend and protector doesn't like you" is a political reason? Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'

The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:05:00 - [451] Originally by: Kai Dorfman Hi Guys, I am Kai Dorfman And Senior Diplomat to Twisted infection. I just want to Make this very clear! 1. Star fraction were set red Because they had engaged us in the Kari Pipe and killed a few of our Members while we were moving to providence. Evidence please. Names of those killed and names of those pilots in SF who killed them. Otherwise, it's just an empty smear. Your alliance fired at us first on the 16th of January. A Twisted Infection corp CEO (Evoss Co) was quite clear that we had been set red because we appeared on the CVA red list. Ultimately, you do what you wish but don't come here and suggest you set us red because we attacked you unless you can back it up. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Kai Dorfman SkillzKillz TWISTED INFECTION	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:18:00 - [452] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Kai Dorfman Hi Guys, I am Kai Dorfman And Senior Diplomat to Twisted infection. I just want to Make this very clear! 1. Star fraction were set red Because they had engaged us in the Kari Pipe and killed a few of our Members while we were moving to providence. Evidence please. Names of those killed and names of those pilots in SF who killed them. Otherwise, it's just an empty smear. Your alliance fired at us first on the 16th of January. A Twisted Infection corp CEO (Evoss Co) was quite clear that we had been set red because we appeared on the CVA red list. Ultimately, you do what you wish but don't come here and suggest you set us red because we attacked you unless you can back it up. Cosmo This works both ways.. you give us evidence that you didnt engage us. Why should we produce the evidence when we are the accused? Please tell me if im wrong... but in a court of law.. for example if you accused me of dangerous driving.. say after a crash... and i said to you that it was down to a car defect... but you (the police in this case) had already gotten rid of my car wreck (scrapped it).. it would be for you to proove that it wasnt a car defect that caused the crash! But that car defect didnt exist and it was in fact my driving would it not? Do not come on the forums and try to call me a lair.. you proove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that your guys could under no circumstances have fired upon us.. with hard factual evidence and i will stand down. Until then this in my opinion is just Propaganda to make CVA look bad, when tbh from what ive seen is extremely inaccurate. Good Day to you sir. kai
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:27:00 - [453] Edited by: Kelsin on 25/01/2008 21:32:03 Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri How is CVA lying? To CVA you certainly are hostile. Since you are hostile CVA has no obligation to protect you the way they would a neutral. The list that means "Kill on Sight" to CVA and allies means "Legal Target" to everyone else. Here's why it's a lie: 1) An entity that Star Fraction has as neutral will not be fired on ANYWHERE by SF pilots. 2) CVA tells people their Red List is a list of people "dangerous to neutrals" (Reash's words). SF is not dangerous or hostile to any corp who has not already been logged as aggressing us - hence to say the opposite is a lie. Misleading neutrals into conflict with an entity that would not otherwise attack them is the charge. I don't think there's any problem with bringing up IC issues here - please do, after all this entire conflict is one of ideology. EDIT: for bad formatting
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:43:00 - [454] 16 pages and Star Fraction is still crying because the residents of Providence don't like them. Guys, the people have spoken. They've heard your pitch, and told you to go stroke yourselves. If you want Providence to come around to your way of thinking, you're going to have to lay off the speach writing and conquer the place for yourself. Become the enemy. The rest of the population doesn't look overly impressed by your metaphysical claptrap. Providence belongs to its sovreigns, not you. The people who fly in Providence seem to genuinely like the current sovreign alliances. I don't see much interest in disrupting the status quo. You want to disrupt the status quo, and that really ****es people off. They don't like you. Go away or come out blasting. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:44:00 - [455] Originally by: Kai Dorfman Originally by: The Cosmopolite Evidence please. Names of those killed and names of those pilots in SF who killed them. Otherwise, it's just an empty smear. Your alliance fired at us first on the 16th of January. A Twisted Infection corp CEO (Evoss Co) was quite clear that we had been set red because we appeared on the CVA red list. Ultimately, you do what you wish but don't come here and suggest you set us red because we attacked you unless you can back it up. Cosmo This works both ways.. you give us evidence that you didnt engage us. Why should we produce the evidence when we are the accused? You're asking for evidence of a negative? Sorry, that's an impossibility. What I do have is clear evidence your pilots fired on us first both in terms of an in-game log and their own words admitting it. I am quite willing to share the details with you. The broad outline is that Evoss Co fired on Jasmine Constantine in Dital system at timestamp 2008.01.16 03:42:26. I can share specific logs and chats with you that corroborate this. I see no reason to broadcast them publicly here at this time. I will certainly hand them to you privately to do with as you wish at your request. Quote: Please tell me if im wrong... but in a court of law.. for example if you accused me of dangerous driving.. say after a crash... and i said to you that it was down to a car defect... but you (the police in this case) had already gotten rid of my car wreck (scrapped it).. it would be for you to proove that it wasnt a car defect that caused the crash! But that car defect didnt exist and it was in fact my driving would it not? Forgive me, but it is you that has accused us. I am simply responding by pointing out that in fact your pilots fired at us first. Now, a negative cannot be proved. I cannot prove that it is impossible that my pilots fired at your pilot. I can quite clearly demonstrate that yours did and you can counter by producing the names of those you claim fired at your pilots first. Quote: Do not come on the forums and try to call me a lair.. you proove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that your guys could under no circumstances have fired upon us.. with hard factual evidence and i will stand down. Until then this in my opinion is just Propaganda to make CVA look bad, when tbh from what ive seen is extremely inaccurate. Again, how can I provide evidence of something that did not happen? By your own logic, unless you can prove with hard factual evidence that your pilots did not shoot at ours, our case is even stronger. We have evidence your pilots fired at our pilots and if we combine that with your inability to prove they did not (which you consider legitimate evidence, though I personally do not) then our case is compelling. Your only logical recourse is to provide evidence that our pilots have at some time fired first. (You will note that all the 'evidence' about negatives gets cancelled out very neatly. That's why asking for negative proof is misguided. It is logically always possible for all parties to demand it so it becomes totally moot.) So in short, yes, you are wrong and you are claiming something that I hold to be false with no evidence to back up your position. Note that I do not call you a liar. I believe you are simply mistaken. I suggest you check the facts with your pilots and, if you can, show how your position is valid. Until then, what you are saying is false and amounts to a, perhaps unconscious, smear of SF. We don't shoot neutrals. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Kai Dorfman SkillzKillz TWISTED INFECTION	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:45:00 - [456] Originally by: Kelsin Edited by: Kelsin on 25/01/2008 21:32:03 Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri How is CVA lying? To CVA you certainly are hostile. Since you are hostile CVA has no obligation to protect you the way they would a neutral. The list that means "Kill on Sight" to CVA and allies means "Legal Target" to everyone else. Here's why it's a lie: 1) An entity that Star Fraction has as neutral will not be fired on ANYWHERE by SF pilots. 2) CVA tells people their Red List is a list of people "dangerous to neutrals" (Reash's words). SF is not dangerous or hostile to any corp who has not already been logged as aggressing us - hence to say the opposite is a lie. Misleading neutrals into conflict with an entity that would not otherwise attack them is the charge. I don't think there's any problem with bringing up IC issues here - please do, after all this entire conflict is one of ideology. EDIT: for bad formatting Ok I feel this is going to get out of hand.. and therefore i wish to end it. Do you guys want neut status to Twisted Infection? If Yes: 1. Do not Act aggressiviley in any way shape or form in Providence. Be it to Blue alliance, corps or indivduals to us. This is a simple term in which if i am contacted will mean you are set to neutral until you agress ANYONE while in Providence. You adhere to this rule while in Prov we will not engage you. If No: Please stop complaining about CVA and its allies as like yourselfs are intitled to have friends. It really makes you guys look bad as quite clearly we have not been asked to set you red. As far as the CEO Evoss... he is new to our alliance and is not a diplomat. he therefore is not in a position to represent our opinions anywhere or at any time. What he expressed is his own personal opinion which he is entitled to. Not how Twisted Infection feels as a whole.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:49:00 - [457] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 21:50:37 (cosmo dealt with it already) "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:55:00 - [458] Originally by: Kai Dorfman Ok I feel this is going to get out of hand.. and therefore i wish to end it. Do you guys want neut status to Twisted Infection? If Yes: 1. Do not Act aggressiviley in any way shape or form in Providence. Be it to Blue alliance, corps or indivduals to us. This is a simple term in which if i am contacted will mean you are set to neutral until you agress ANYONE while in Providence. You've been caught in a false accusation on a mystery "aggression" that never happened, now you expect us to seek neutrality with you on the terms we accept standings handed down from the CVA. Laughable. I'll enjoy shooting you until the servers wear out "I might not have meant anything by it"
Kai Dorfman SkillzKillz TWISTED INFECTION	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:58:00 - [459] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Kai Dorfman Originally by: The Cosmopolite Evidence please. Names of those killed and names of those pilots in SF who killed them. Otherwise, it's just an empty smear. Your alliance fired at us first on the 16th of January. A Twisted Infection corp CEO (Evoss Co) was quite clear that we had been set red because we appeared on the CVA red list. Ultimately, you do what you wish but don't come here and suggest you set us red because we attacked you unless you can back it up. Cosmo This works both ways.. you give us evidence that you didnt engage us. Why should we produce the evidence when we are the accused? You're asking for evidence of a negative? Sorry, that's an impossibility. What I do have is clear evidence your pilots fired on us first both in terms of an in-game log and their own words admitting it. I am quite willing to share the details with you. The broad outline is that Evoss Co fired on Jasmine Constantine in Dital system at timestamp 2008.01.16 03:42:26. I can share specific logs and chats with you that corroborate this. I see no reason to broadcast them publicly here at this time. I will certainly hand them to you privately to do with as you wish at your request. Quote: Please tell me if im wrong... but in a court of law.. for example if you accused me of dangerous driving.. say after a crash... and i said to you that it was down to a car defect... but you (the police in this case) had already gotten rid of my car wreck (scrapped it).. it would be for you to proove that it wasnt a car defect that caused the crash! But that car defect didnt exist and it was in fact my driving would it not? Forgive me, but it is you that has accused us. I am simply responding by pointing out that in fact your pilots fired at us first. Now, a negative cannot be proved. I cannot prove that it is impossible that my pilots fired at your pilot. I can quite clearly demonstrate that yours did and you can counter by producing the names of those you claim fired at your pilots first. Quote: Do not come on the forums and try to call me a lair.. you proove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that your guys could under no circumstances have fired upon us.. with hard factual evidence and i will stand down. Until then this in my opinion is just Propaganda to make CVA look bad, when tbh from what ive seen is extremely inaccurate. Again, how can I provide evidence of something that did not happen? By your own logic, unless you can prove with hard factual evidence that your pilots did not shoot at ours, our case is even stronger. We have evidence your pilots fired at our pilots and if we combine that with your inability to prove they did not (which you consider legitimate evidence, though I personally do not) then our case is compelling. Your only logical recourse is to provide evidence that our pilots have at some time fired first. (You will note that all the 'evidence' about negatives gets cancelled out very neatly. That's why asking for negative proof is misguided. It is logically always possible for all parties to demand it so it becomes totally moot.) So in short, yes, you are wrong and you are claiming something that I hold to be false with no evidence to back up your position. Note that I do not call you a liar. I believe you are simply mistaken. I suggest you check the facts with your pilots and, if you can, show how your position is valid. Until then, what you are saying is false and amounts to a, perhaps unconscious, smear of SF. We don't shoot neutrals. Cosmo No what you have thier is evidence that we have fired on you. not evidence we fired first. Secondly.. in response to the TI guys comment.. It is not that we dont like Star Fraction, they agree to my above terms and they will not be fired upon. My guys were Strictly told do not fire unless engaged first. And as far as i know they have done as instructed.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:01:00 - [460] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 22:02:28 Originally by: Kai Dorfman No what you have thier is evidence that we have fired on you. not evidence we fired first. Secondly.. in response to the TI guys comment.. It is not that we dont like Star Fraction, they agree to my above terms and they will not be fired upon. My guys were Strictly told do not fire unless engaged first. And as far as i know they have done as instructed. ------------------------------------------------------------ Gamelog Listener: Jasmine Constantine Session started: 2008.01.16 03:40:44 ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 2008.01.16 03:41:23 ] (notify) Warping to Stargate (Dital) [ 2008.01.16 03:42:26 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Evoss Co [KIFA]<F3K3D>(Hurricane) lightly hits you, doing 34.0 damage. [ 2008.01.16 03:42:26 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Evoss Co [KIFA]<F3K3D>(Hurricane) lightly hits you, doing 39.3 damage. [ 2008.01.16 03:42:27 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Evoss Co [KIFA]<F3K3D>(Hurricane) barely scratches you, causing 28.1 damage. [ 2008.01.16 03:42:27 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Evoss Co [KIFA]<F3K3D>(Hurricane) hits you, doing 45.3 damage. [ 2008.01.16 03:42:27 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Evoss Co [KIFA]<F3K3D>(Hurricane) places an excellent hit on you, inflicting 78.3 damage. [ 2008.01.16 03:42:27 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Evoss Co [KIFA]<F3K3D>(Hurricane) hits you, doing 43.0 damage. [ 2008.01.16 03:42:29 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Thunderbolt Heavy Missile belonging to Evoss Co hits you, doing 157.5 damage. [ 2008.01.16 03:42:29 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile belonging to Evoss Co hits you, doing 27.1 damage. [ 2008.01.16 03:42:29 ] (None) Jumping to Stargate (KBP7-G) in Dital solarsystem *** That is the first aggression from your alliance against ours. Your pilot went on to apologize for it in local and admit the only reason he fired is that you'd been asked to adopt the CVA Red List. Its all rather clear. If you claim your ships were aggressed before this then the burden is on you to produce an aggression log showing this. "I might not have meant anything by it"

Kai Dorfman SkillzKillz TWISTED INFECTION	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:07:00 - [461] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Kai Dorfman Ok I feel this is going to get out of hand.. and therefore i wish to end it. Do you guys want neut status to Twisted Infection? If Yes: 1. Do not Act aggressiviley in any way shape or form in Providence. Be it to Blue alliance, corps or indivduals to us. This is a simple term in which if i am contacted will mean you are set to neutral until you agress ANYONE while in Providence. You've been caught in a false accusation on a mystery "aggression" that never happened, now you expect us to seek neutrality with you on the terms we accept standings handed down from the CVA. Laughable. I'll enjoy shooting you until the servers wear out Thus Prooving that you are the agressive alliance and we are not.. we have offered you an alterative and you have shown your true colours... This is precisely why people shoot you. This type of "you fired upon us... how dare you do such a thing" "we will kill you forever" Our terms are our own... not CVA we Protect Providence and its residents and will continue to do so.. until we choose otherwise... if that time come i assure you again it will be our choice! What did you expect from this Argument.. Us to turn against our friends and help you kill CVA? Sorry but its not going to happen. Had you been the guys initially offering us suppost maybee things would have been different.. but they are not. We are not going to start "shooting you until the servers go down" we are simply defending our home. Altho i will admit.. as i aint full of poo, that without CVA presence here and the presence of its allies atm we would not stand a chance. Were new and we are learning. We are also very loyal and pretty friendly. Again if you have a problem with us I would apprieciate it if you spoke to us as our own entity instead of involving CVA. That way maybee we would respect you more.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:07:00 - [462] Originally by: Kelsin Edited by: Kelsin on 25/01/2008 21:32:03 Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri How is CVA lying? To CVA you certainly are hostile. Since you are hostile CVA has no obligation to protect you the way they would a neutral. The list that means "Kill on Sight" to CVA and allies means "Legal Target" to everyone else. Here's why it's a lie: 1) An entity that Star Fraction has as neutral will not be fired on ANYWHERE by SF pilots. 2) CVA tells people their Red List is a list of people "dangerous to neutrals" (Reash's words). I have to back up Kelsin here by pointing out that CVA have regularly said the Red List indicates those entities that are 'likely to open fire first' and indeed CVA have stated very clearly that: 'everyone on our KOS list [operates NBSI in Providence]' As for the whole IC/OOC debate... I'm not sympathetic to any view that the CVA are hard done by when their occasional* practise of calling other entities 'pirate' in clearly OOC venues and channels, to a largely OOC audience, is called out. Rodj is at least clear-eyed enough to see that the term 'pirate' has a distinct OOC and player-understood meaning as part of the terminology of EVE the game. That is the meaning that is understood when it is used in OOC discussions and information channels and no amount of wishing it to be 'IC' or a discussion (more laughably still) of the RL OOC legal definition will make it so. I am, however, quite clear that many CVA members do not indulge in the practise of OOC labelling SF and U'K as pirates in any sense. I'm afraid however that some do. Further, ultimately, when it comes to the term 'pirate', it is so loaded and charged as a general EVE player term that I think it has become almost impossible to rescue it for rational and respectful RP except where dealing with self-described pirate RPers. That may be a general failing but it's not one that is going to be rectified any time soon. Cosmo * I'm going to be scrupulous and hence at this time I think it is occasional and only a very few diehards that still spread this stuff about. At one time it did reach ridiculous and damaging levels. In terms of SF the damage to relationships was minor as the the damage there was done a long time ago. In terms of U'K and CVA, from what I saw as an informed observer, it did as much to kill decent relations as the manner of the conquests in Providence. Possibly more. Some CVA personalities wilfully threw years of goodwill away with the insane parroting in every possible venue and arena that U'K were pirates in an IC and OOC sense. (It could not be understood in a solely IC manner such was the broadwave trumpeting of it. The sensible people in the CVA lost control of that situation, in my view.) The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Kyle Ignis	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:18:00 - [463] So what is Star Faction trying to gain at the moment? through all of this babble what are u achieving? ...are u mining and cant listen to eve radio?
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:23:00 - [464] Originally by: Kyle Ignis So what is Star Faction trying to gain at the moment? through all of this babble what are u achieving? ...are u mining and cant listen to eve radio? No, this is actually rather normal for them. Irritate the hell out of people with endless walls of pseudopsychobabblish dribble, then scream about being a victim when any sane human finally reaches the point where shooting them seems like a mercy killing. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:24:00 - [465] Originally by: Kai Dorfman Thus Prooving that you are the agressive alliance and we are not.. we have offered you an alterative and you have shown your true colours... This is precisely why people shoot you. This type of "you fired upon us... how dare you do such a thing" "we will kill you forever" The alternative you offered was that we surrender totally and cease our war against those entities that have aggressed us in Providence and surrounding regions. That was untenable as an alternative to continuing hostility. We are quite willing to establish neutral or even friendly relations with you on the basis that neither party will interfere in the business of the other. We would not pass intelligence on you or assist others in attacking you. We would ask in return that you not assist others in attacking us or pass intelligence on us. This is the basis of mutual neutrality and respect. If you wish it, you can have it. As for the current state of the evidence, I have produced evidence of one of your alliance pilots aggressing one of our alliance pilots at a given time and in a given location. That pilot admitted the aggression in later chats and stated that it occured because we were already set to red by your alliance. Therefore, for your account that we aggressed first to be true, you must show that an aggression by SF pilots took place before that time and that you set us red in response to said aggression. I will be very happy to accept the names of aggressing SF pilots, if any, from you, together with the names of who they aggressed (ideally gamelogs but names will do) and I will assure you that I will investigate such very carefully indeed. I will tell you now that if an unwarranted aggression by SF pilots can be shown there will be apologies and possible recompense from us together with the possibility of us expelling the pilots in question, if any. So, let us have the evidence. In the absence of it, the record shows you to have aggressed us first because we were set red by you. According to the pilot in question, this was set because we were on the CVA red list. That's fine. If that's how you want to do business, that is absolutely your prerogative. But please do not suggest you are defending yourself from our aggression unless you can show such aggression actually took place. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:25:00 - [466] Originally by: Kai Dorfman Thus Prooving that you are the agressive alliance and we are not.. we have offered you an alterative and you have shown your true colours... This is precisely why people shoot you. This type of "you fired upon us... how dare you do such a thing" "we will kill you forever" Because we are not prepared to forgive your attack and zero our standings to a couple of dozen other entities who have attacked us from neutral. You bring a colorful new definition to the term "passive/aggressive" there Kai Dorfman. Maybe in nine months time when we're still shooting you we'll have the discussion of "why" this started and I can remind you then of how you tried to dictate our foreign policy while gesticulating boldly under the shadow of big brother CVA. Quote: Again if you have a problem with us I would apprieciate it if you spoke to us as our own entity instead of involving CVA. That way maybee we would respect you more. We'll treat you as an independent entity at the point you have the independence to set your own standings. As long as you have no freedom to act independently it would be ridiculous to negotiate with you on any level. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Kyle Ignis	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:28:00 - [467] Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Kyle Ignis So what is Star Faction trying to gain at the moment? through all of this babble what are u achieving? ...are u mining and cant listen to eve radio? No, this is actually rather normal for them. Irritate the hell out of people with endless walls of pseudopsychobabblish dribble, then scream about being a victim when any sane human finally reaches the point where shooting them seems like a mercy killing. Im mining so its all good
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 23:53:00 - [468] Quote: That is the meaning that is understood when it is used in OOC discussions and information channels and no amount of wishing it to be 'IC' or a discussion (more laughably still) of the RL OOC legal definition will make it so. What is laughable is that you would take a title given for reasons of IC actions and IC politics as OOC. Even if the player himself didn't make the distinction when he gave the title. I consider The Citadel to be a mixed channel as far as IC and OOC go. Of course, what is more laughable (in a sad way) is that anyone would take a title given because of actions in an internet spaceship game this seriously. How could it possibly be a title aimed at you rather than your character? Finally, CVA has always used a different definition of pirate in providence than the rest of EVE has. In fact, for years they confused people because they used pirate as a legal title for someone they considered unwelcome in providence rather than the way the rest of EVE used it. Why would that have changed? Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.26 00:39:00 - [469] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Finally, CVA has always used a different definition of pirate in providence than the rest of EVE has. In fact, for years they confused people because they used pirate as a legal title for someone they considered unwelcome in providence rather than the way the rest of EVE used it. Why would that have changed? This again is making our point for us Gaven. One of the big things I've been arguing in this thread is that the CVA regime deliberately try to confuse people about the status of entities on their Red list. They willfully misinform "neutrals" as to the likelihood of them being attacked by said "reds" and then try to act the innocent when called on the issue. Misusing the term "pirate" to mean "cva enemy" is a good example of this. You know perfectly well that "pirate" in eve means "will attack anyone" and is very different from the ideology of Star Fraction for example. Its entirely the right of the CVA to tell this lie if it suits their political objectives (and they think it will win them some allies). But this political debating forum exists for us to correct it if we are able, and you can be sure we will. As I've said before though, I think is all perfectly fine and realistic play for an authoritarian standings enclosurist regime based on the institutional deceit and hypocrisy of the Amarrian government to tell lies about people they don't like. One thing I never really understand though is why the CVA members might feel offended to have it pointed out that they tell the most amazing untruths and spread the most outrageously deceitfully spun propaganda though. After all, they are playing their characters absolutely perfectly and portraying an entirely realistic totalitarian regime. I just wonder if sometimes some of the younger CVA players buy into their own roleplay a little too much and end up believing the stuff they say in these conflicts. Sometimes its a good idea to sit back, have a cup of tea and realize that we are all playing different characters and divergent political persuasions here and we are going to disagree on the interpretations of well, everything. Its entirely reasonable for anarchists and freedom fighters to accuse the ruling totalitarian regime of Province of telling lies to neutrals to keep them under their sway. This is eve, its big grown up politics, its a dark universe - people manipulate, spin, lie, steal and intrigue their way to success. No need for CVA to be ashamed of its behaviour - its doing a truly excellent job as the paragon of twisted authoritarian rhetoric in eve online. "I might not have meant anything by it"
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.26 00:57:00 - [470] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri What is laughable is that you would take a title given for reasons of IC actions and IC politics as OOC. Even if the player himself didn't make the distinction when he gave the title. You assert the reasons are down to IC actions and IC politics but how can I believe that anyone who describes SF as 'pirates' in an OOC arena (and not just one place, many) is seriously calibrating it according to SF's IC actions and politics? It's utterly fantastical. Calling people 'pirates' and relying on a commonly understood definition of piracy in EVE, when they have not in any way acted as 'pirates' can be understood in one of two ways: 1) As an IC lie. 2) As an OOC lie. If you wish, I'll take it as an IC lie when it is said in an IC arena. But it's a lie nonetheless and don't expect people to take it laying down. If it's said in an OOC arena, it's simply a lie. Quote: I consider The Citadel to be a mixed channel as far as IC and OOC go. So... what? When someone says that A is a 'pirate' in one breath that is IC but when they say A uses 'log-off traps' with another breath that is OOC, is it? Sorry, not convincing. Citadel, other intel channels and various other public and not-so public arena are largely host to an audience that understands things to have a particular meaning in terms of EVE the game. Quote: Of course, what is more laughable (in a sad way) is that anyone would take a title given because of actions in an internet spaceship game this seriously. How could it possibly be a title aimed at you rather than your character? Because it is aimed, very commonly and often quite consciously, at how people play the game. That is not about one's character. That is about the player. Do I think that is a good state of affairs? No. But that is how many, many people who play EVE think of the term. People, many of them, consider that those who 'pirate' (note it is often used as a verb) are 'griefers', 'gankers' and all the rest of it. It's a tainted term in player discourse when used about people who do not self-describe themselves as 'pirates'. It is very definitely a tainted term in OOC discussions (it's an outright insult and a slur if the other other party OOCly denies it and particularly if they can show they are not 'pirates' as generally understood) and, I am sorry, Gaven, but it is pretty much tainted as a term available for use in RP. Sad, I agree, but that's the reality. Quote: Finally, CVA has always used a different definition of pirate in providence than the rest of EVE has. In fact, for years they confused people because they used pirate as a legal title for someone they considered unwelcome in providence rather than the way the rest of EVE used it. Why would that have changed? It changed, despite any protestations to the contrary, the day they started to rely on the rest of EVE's understanding of the term in public discourse. Once that was done, even once, they forfeited any right to claim they used it as a special terminology all of their own. As I say, the relationship between SF and CVA has hardly shifted as a result of that. I think it was something that proved a dreadful mistake in terms of other relationships. Doesn't really bother me at the end of the day though. The whole point here is that the CVA cannot really expect not to get called out when they use the term 'pirate' about people who are not pirates. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal

Ayari Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.01.26 01:07:00 - [471] I think people from CVA are offended because you're calling them liars OOCly in an OOC forum. You seem to be blurring what should be very solid lines between IC and OOC behavior, and I get the feeling you take your IC RP stance in EVE a little too seriously. It is just a game. Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.26 01:22:00 - [472] Originally by: Ayari I think people from CVA are offended because you're calling them liars OOCly in an OOC forum. You seem to be blurring what should be very solid lines between IC and OOC behavior, and I get the feeling you take your IC RP stance in EVE a little too seriously. It is just a game. Indeed it is my dear, but if people are going to lie about SF's ideology on an OOC forum than its entirely fair to call them out for those lies on an OOC forum. To describe SF as a "pirate" corp is a lie. Plain and simple. Describing SF as having NBSI "tendencies" is a lie, plain and simple. If people do not want the veracity of their word challenged in an open forum then they are wise to avoid making false claims. It is indeed just a game, but its a game of politics and just as people will lie for advantage when playing tabletop wargames like Diplomacy and its ilk, they will lie for advantage in eve. People tell lies to win games Ayari, thats the whole point of some games. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Verone Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.01.26 02:08:00 - [473] Over four years... and still it goes on. Get over yourselves, stop arguing over internet spaceships, and play the damn game. >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW - EVE FICTION <<<
Snakester Caldari Blood and Money Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.26 02:18:00 - [474] Originally by: Jade Constantine If people do not want the veracity of their word challenged in an open forum then they are wise to avoid making false claims. It is indeed just a game, but its a game of politics and just as people will lie for advantage when playing tabletop wargames like Diplomacy and its ilk, they will lie for advantage in eve. People tell lies to win games Ayari, thats the whole point of some games. Couldn't sum my thoughts of what u do any clearer tbh. and thats OOC IC or whatever u want. Snake. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.26 06:42:00 - [475] Originally by: Verone Over four years... and still it goes on. Get over yourselves, stop arguing over internet spaceships, and play the damn game. hey this is a very serious matter of IC vs OOC roleplay mr pirate person show some respect
Nek Tuomatta Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.26 06:56:00 - [476] Originally by: The Cosmopolite hi at least i can see that jade isn't alone anymore! You are now reading my sig! Originally by: Gaius Kador Nothing surprises me as to the lengths Star Fraction will go to push their propaganda on the public masses.
Rikelov Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.26 09:56:00 - [477] Great post Jade, I was asleep for the op, but I managed a few bomber kills in the morning to make up for it. There are about 3 cool people in Sev from what I can see, and I regularly feel sorry for them. (it should be clear, but Keorythe is not one of them)
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.26 10:03:00 - [478] This is not about IC/OOC. This is about showing some respect for the guy in front of the other computer.
xRazoRx The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.01.26 10:15:00 - [479] Edited by: xRazoRx on 26/01/2008 10:15:08 Originally by: Kabajashi San This is not about IC/OOC. This is about showing some respect for the guy in front of the other computer. My translator says that there is no such word as "respectontheinternets".
Verone Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.01.26 12:42:00 - [480] Originally by: The Mittani Originally by: Verone Over four years... and still it goes on. Get over yourselves, stop arguing over internet spaceships, and play the damn game. hey this is a very serious matter of IC vs OOC roleplay mr pirate person show some respect I apologise for my lack of sensitivity good sir, and do indeed hope that it has not at all spoiled your forum poasting experiences. Obviously I have a lot to learn about just how serious the business of internet spaceships is. >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW - EVE FICTION <<<

Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.26 13:18:00 - [481] Originally by: Verone Obviously I have a lot to learn about just how serious the business of internet spaceships is. I think a lot of us do. Todays catchy line of advice for a healthier online experience of internet spaceships is: 'Obsess a little less' If your a member of PIE, show some respect for the dead horse and leave it alone please. ----------------------------------------------
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.26 15:28:00 - [482] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 26/01/2008 15:29:34 Originally by: Verone Over four years... and still it goes on. Get over yourselves, stop arguing over internet spaceships, and play the damn game. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here Verone. This CAOD forum is about debating the politics in a game about internet spaceships after all. Are you suggesting we should stop having this debate? Eschew politics entirely? Stop arguments about the rights and wrongs of ideology and standings choices and enforcement regimes? I don't think so. Eve is about the great game of politics and influence and manipulation on one very important level, what is said here has echoes through the universe in space. CAOD is at least as important a battleground as the stars in 0.0 and the lonely outposts with their sparkling rings of protective towers. BoB know this, the Goons know this, IAC, CVA, TRI, and the rest all know this. Why is this forum the most important one on eve-online? Because public opinion matters and wars can be won or lost in the presentation and expectation management that happens right here. Now perhaps politics truly don't matter for a Pirate corporation like your own Verone. After all, you just kill people and take their loot. In its way I see the attraction of the simplicity of your lifestyle, just "pew-pew", just shooting things and making witticisms on the forums occasionally. Thats fine, its what floats your boat and as one player to another I can't condemn you for that choice on any level whatsoever. But please don't come and tell me that politics don't matter in the wars between 0.0 entities in nullsec, or that public opinion is not a vital factor in these conflicts, or that arguing one's opponent to submission in clear public debate doesn't achieve significant and compelling results in the great game itself. This thread is an important part of the war of ideas Verone, at least as important as the last 100 spaceships that were destroyed in the fight its discussing. And you really don't need to take my word for it, after all, just consider who hasn't posted here? There is no need for anybody to "get over themselves" No need for anyone to "stop arguing" And really, when all is said and done. We don't need you to tell us how to play the game. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Renosha Argaron Caldari IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.26 16:44:00 - [483] Edited by: Renosha Argaron on 26/01/2008 16:45:26 The only objection's i have about Mr Costantwhine's post's is the lack of truth, Jade constantly telling us how we run our alliance is laughable, telling us who set's our KOS list and how we deal with nuetrals, when he know's fine well that he is telling blatant lie's. Sev & Allies ARE NOT told who to set as KOS, like any alliance who has friends in any area, players are warned by there friends about who is more likely to shoot first in that area of space, so there for taking that on board we deal with other corp's and alliance's as we find them, If you dont shoot us and our allie's, we wont shoot you...its as simple as that. you cant FORCE any corp or allaince to set standings, EVE is massive, had we been TOLD what to do we would have simply moved on to somewhere else. Neutrals are EXACTLY that until they agress us or are KNOWN spy's of our enemy's, and jade's story about Dreamy shooting at her corp member for no reason is completley unfounded Tripe, As snakester has already explained, the SF corp member jade claim's was just "strolling along" sniffing the flowers like snow white, took place when Sev3rance where residents of SUKANAN which is far from providence space, Sev3rance where part of the SUK defence force where we first formed our alliances with CVA members as part of said NRDS SUK defence force, Protecting the area from pirate's, and by pirates i do mean pirate's (Griefer's, Mining thief's and any other's out to disrupt the peace in the area) which made it an ideal area for noobs and neutral's to test the waters in to low sec, and have a chance at making some decent iskies for themself's....my own previous Mining corp being one of those who enjoyed the protection which the SUK Defence Force granted us in such a low sec area of space, where we dared not venture beforehand. It was also claimed that Dreamy asked if this SF member was KOS in the citadel channel, again this claim is laughable as we had our own SUK defence channel for intel, why would a non citadel or providance resident ask in a channel for said residents about KOS standings when they DO NOT reside in that area of space? This whole scenario was concocted for the specific reason that SF could openly war dec sev3rance and claim the moral high ground, as they could not openly war dec CVA themselfs, they opted for what they thought would be an easyer target, a non RP alliance who are allies to CVA. So my question to you jade would be, If what you and your EX corp mate said truely happend the way you said it did , why did'nt you war dec sev3rance before we left SUK and moved to Providence?...you know this entire story is a fabrication and was staged to get around your so called NRDS policy without loosing face. SF also claim to be Free Pilots who do not believe that any alliance should hold sovereignty in any area, Yet you are more than willing to allow UK to hold sovereignty when it suits your own needs, Kind of a double standard there dont ya think Jade? Either you believe in sovereignty or you do not, there is no middle ground, but in your case there seems to be gray area's EVERYWHERE you turn as long as its in your best interests. Admit the fact's that we all already know, this is a personal thing for you now jade, and that you are using UK as your own personal "Meatshield", We have already heard reports of you saying that UK will do as there told by you and will follow you when told to. This is no way a slur on UK, i actualy think you guys are fighting for what you believe and for that i give you due props and have my respect, But be carefull of the company you keep as in my opinion, Jade is using you to fight a personal war to gain personal glory for no one but himself. If anyone wants to know what our standings are, you only need contact our diplomats, which jade is NOT one of. Regards Renosha[:D
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.26 17:11:00 - [484] Ah Renosha, nice to see you still have the spirit to debate even if your restraint is slipping a little. First off I would like to ask you to stop the personal insults. They donÆt do you any credit and certainly donÆt add any cogent persuasion to your arguments. Personal insults simply show you lack the ability to address the key issues under discussion and don't convince anybody of quality to consider your position favorably. So to your post: Firstly, you accuse me of lying about the things said on this thread but as usual you present absolutely zero evidence to support the accusation. I have of course witnessed Sev3rance in operation for four months now in close proximity, IÆve spoken with your commanding officers, IÆve had your command channels infiltrated exhaustively and witnessed your inter-corp discussions in live discussion, closed forum, and general in-space dialogue. The one true statement you make is that IF a neutral shoots one of your allies it ceases immediately (in your eyes) to be neutral and becomes a RED enemy. This means that your terms of engagement are not NRDS, but NRDSUYSOF (Not Red DonÆt Shoot Unless You Shoot Our Friends). In practise this may be further redefined to NRDSUYSCVA (Not Red DonÆt Shoot Unless You Shoot CVA). This makes you enforcers of the CVA territorial claim in Providence and is precisely how I have described you in the process of this thread. There is no disagreement here, no lies, and no confusion. Sev3rance are simply CVA border guards and their enemies are your enemies. You are not ôanti pirateö, you are not NRDS, you are simply territorial watchdogs defending the interests of the ruling power. Secondly, DreamyÆs attack on a Star Fraction vessel is documented fact and no credible doubt exists as to what happened. The Star Fraction pilot was patrolling to find CVA targets, Sev3rance added SF to their Red List (on direction from CVA in Citadel channel) and engaged our vessel. As a consequence Sev3rance was set Red to SF and we reserved the right to take whatever action we thought appropriate in the future. Thirdly, we do not of course say that alliances should not hold technical sovereignty in 0.0 Space. The actual name on the map is irrelevant. We judge by the policies conducted by those alliances. There is no double-standard and its quite telling that you are scraping the barrel to claim so. WeÆd be very supportive of a 0.0 entity gaining high levels of technical sovereignty while pursuing a Freespace agenda, or indeed (as in this case) to oppose the Sovereignty lock of an enclosurist power with regressive anti Freespace agenda. Sev3rance function as the CVAÆs ôwatchdogsö on the KBP entrance into Providence. We will support virtually any sovereignty claim that damages your ability to maintain Sov3 and cyno jam that system. Lastly, you are reaching quite a lot to describe this as a ôpersonalö war for me Renosha. Almost as if you donÆt believe you should be held responsible for DreamyÆs attack on a Star Fraction vessel all those months ago. So let me ask you the questions: Why donÆt you feel responsible for that action Renosha? Why do you feel that Star Fraction should overlook the hostility that Sev3rance knowingly undertook against our pilot? Star Fraction believes always in taking responsibility for our actions. We believe the attack on another space-pilot is a big decision, a large step to take. When Dreamy decided to make an enemy of the Star Fraction it was a defining moment in your alliance after all. It wasnÆt just ôpew pewö it was shooting the wrong people for the wrong reasons and now the consequences have become apparent itÆs a little weak for you to try to wriggle out by accusing some nonsense personal vendetta. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.26 17:19:00 - [485] Sev3rance is just the latest in a long line of territorial puppets weÆve fought Renosha. You arenÆt special or unique, you really donÆt represent anything particularly significant beyond the fact that you a) aggressed us to give clear casus beli and b) you occupy an important route into Providence with the side benefit that c) hurting you gives us free war decs from the CVA. ThatÆs the whole issue, I know it might be difficult for you to grasp but beyond the red-rage of frustration itÆs a matter of cause and effect. If you donÆt want this war then you have only to agree to our terms to end it. "I might not have meant anything by it"
NO BRAKES GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.26 17:29:00 - [486] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 26/01/2008 15:29:34 Originally by: Verone Over four years... and still it goes on. Get over yourselves, stop arguing over internet spaceships, and play the damn game. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here Verone. This CAOD forum is about debating the politics in a game about internet spaceships after all. Are you suggesting we should stop having this debate? Eschew politics entirely? Stop arguments about the rights and wrongs of ideology and standings choices IU and enforcement regimes? I don't think so. Eve is about the great game of politics and influence and manipulation on one very important level, what is said here has echoes through the universe in space. CAOD is at least as important a battleground as the stars in 0.0 and the lonely outposts with their sparkling rings of protective towers. BoB know this, the Goons know this, IAC, CVA, TRI, and the rest all know this. Why is this forum the most important one on eve-online? Because public opinion matters and wars can be won or lost in the presentation and expectation management that happens right here. Now perhaps politics truly don't matter for a Pirate corporation like your own Verone. After all, you just kill people and take their loot. In its way I see the attraction of the simplicity of your lifestyle, just "pew-pew", just shooting things and making witticisms on the forums occasionally. Thats fine, its what floats your boat and as one player to another I can't condemn you for that choice on any level whatsoever. But please don't come and tell me that politics don't matter in the wars between 0.0 entities in nullsec, or that public opinion is not a vital factor in these conflicts, or that arguing one's opponent to submission in clear public debate doesn't achieve significant and compelling results in the great game itself. This thread is an important part of the war of ideas Verone, at least as important as the last 100 spaceships that were destroyed in the fight its discussing. And you really don't need to take my word for it, after all, just consider who hasn't posted here? There is no need for anybody to "get over themselves" No need for anyone to "stop arguing" And really, when all is said and done. We don't need you to tell us how to play the game. I think hes trying to say you talk too much.
BlueKind Gallente IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.26 17:30:00 - [487] Edited by: BlueKind on 26/01/2008 17:45:17 - ---- Bluekind
Verone Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.01.26 17:58:00 - [488] Originally by: Jade Constantine We don't need you to tell us how to play the game. I'm not attempting to tell you how to play the game, so please don't attempt to twist my words like you do other people's. You're well aware that I've spoken to you in private about burying the hatchets that yourself and CVA wave at eachother every other day. You're also well aware that the only reason this thread has gotten so hostile is because of the OOC differences you guys have. My offer is still open as a medium for you guys to put your childish arguing behind yourselves. >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW - EVE FICTION <<<
Renosha Argaron Caldari IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:11:00 - [489] Originally by: Jade Constantine Ah Renosha, nice to see you still have the spirit to debate even if your restraint is slipping a little. First off I would like to ask you to stop the personal insults. They donÆt do you any credit and certainly donÆt add any cogent persuasion to your arguments. Personal insults simply show you lack the ability to address the key issues under discussion and don't convince anybody of quality to consider your position favorably. Originally by: Jade Constantine Sev3rance is just the latest in a long line of territorial puppets weÆve fought Renosha Both those statements contradict one another on the insult front dont you think? Originally by: Jade Constantine ThatÆs the whole issue, I know it might be difficult for you to grasp but beyond the red-rage of frustration itÆs a matter of cause and effect. If you donÆt want this war then you have only to agree to our terms to end it. Well im sorry to here about your red-rage of frustration problems, i will try my best to overlook it...But we both know that this is a personal thing for you, even close allie's of your's have told us so and that they feel you are loosing the plot on this one. You also say that there is documented fact and no credible doubt that your pilot was attacked without provication, well those logs of your's CLAIM only that dreamy shot your pilot, not why he shot your pilot, if you condone your pilots taking part in acts of piracy then that's on you, clearly you take your EX pilots word as gospil and on blind faith on this matter, even though he left your corp before this war deck took place, how convenient, again that's your own problem, but please do not try to make out that this was your reason for your war dec on sev3rance, we all know differently. Again im not gonna turn this in to some sort of smackfest which is really your main reason for these threads in the first place (Forum warfare you called it right?),"my pilot shot your pilot, No your's shot mine", kind of playground antics which you have clearly become very fond of adopting. You can goad and slander Sev3rance as much as you like, but we can at least hold our head's high on this matter with the knowledge that we DO operate with the NRDS policy that you have claimed so many times that we dont, that we treat neutrals with respect until they take away there right to the respect we have given them, we dont seek your approval or acknowledgement nor seek or need it on this matter, as i said, anyone wanting to know our standings and policy need only ask our diplomats. Originally by: Jade Constantine Thirdly, we do not of course say that alliances should not hold technical sovereignty in 0.0 Space. Again a contradiction, going by your presentation at fanfest when your director clearly stated that you believe all space is free and no allaince should have any right to claim sovereignty, but now your saying just not in 0.0? When you constantly move the goal posts then expect people to call you out on it, by trying to justify your subversive actions and your constant passive agressive jibes at Sev3rance only bolsters and confirms in our eyes and many others, that this has become a personal war for you, and i also notice you did'nt refute the alligation that you are using UK as your own persoanl army, enough said! Regards Renosha
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.26 21:14:00 - [490] Originally by: Renosha Argaron Originally by: Jade Constantine Thirdly, we do not of course say that alliances should not hold technical sovereignty in 0.0 Space. Again a contradiction, going by your presentation at fanfest when your director clearly stated that you believe all space is free and no allaince should have any right to claim sovereignty, but now your saying just not in 0.0? No contradiction whatever. I know precisely what I said and I know precisely why Jade used the term 'technical sovereignty'. We do believe space is free and we do believe that no alliance has an intrinsic right to claim absolute political sovereignty over any particular volume of space. We do accept that the technical business of claiming sovereignty as a gameplay mechanic is something that has to happen for 0.0 to be exploited and developed. Something we have always supported. No shifting of ground. No moving of goalposts. Just a simple matter of making a distinction between political sovereignty and technical sovereignty. Nice try but all you did was allow us to point out that it is possible and desirable to make this distinction given current game mechanics. Quote: When you constantly move the goal posts then expect people to call you out on it, by trying to justify your subversive actions and your constant passive agressive jibes at Sev3rance only bolsters and confirms in our eyes and many others, that this has become a personal war for you, and i also notice you did'nt refute the alligation that you are using UK as your own persoanl army, enough said! Why we should dignify ridiculous and obviously untrue allegatons with refutation, I don't know. Your constant attempts to place divisions between the allies ranged against you continues to tell a tale all of its own. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.26 22:45:00 - [491] Originally by: Renosha Argaron Both those statements contradict one another on the insult front dont you think? Not at all. I have described Sev3rance as a territorial puppet alliance and I will stand by that. Have a look at the wikipedia entry for puppet state and I think you'll find the term is very appropriate for Sev3rance. For example, "The term has two distinct but related meanings. First, it refers to a state whose government depends on a foreign power for its existence and which closely follows the will of that foreign power in key policy issues; sometimes economic, sometimes strategic. Such a government is also known as a puppet rTgime. In this respect, "puppet state" is one of many terms that describe the subordination of one state to another in the international system." Quote: You also say that there is documented fact and no credible doubt that your pilot was attacked without provication, well those logs of your's CLAIM only that dreamy shot your pilot, not why he shot your pilot, if you condone your pilots taking part in acts of piracy then that's on you, clearly you take your EX pilots word as gospil and on blind faith on this matter, even though he left your corp before this war deck took place, how convenient, again that's your own problem, but please do not try to make out that this was your reason for your war dec on sev3rance, we all know differently. I trust the word of Bacchanalian implicitly. He was a Star Fraction pilot in good standing who knew our rules of engagement perfectly and while being our top-scoring combat pilot never broke our ideology or approach to diplomacy. He was patrolling for CVA and CVA bloc hostile targets (who had previously aggressed SF) and was attacked without warning by a Sev3rance pilot under gate gun fire. He posted the aggression log, we still have the record. Everything is absolutely plain. If you are asking me to believe that an honourable pilot like Bacchanalian was actually secretly "pirating" and thats why Dreamy shot him you are stretching credulity far beyond breaking point. If you have questions to ask Bacchanalian then you will have opportunity to meet him in space now. Since he is a director of Stimulus corporation who have recently chosen to return to the region. Quote: You can goad and slander Sev3rance as much as you like, but we can at least hold our head's high on this matter with the knowledge that we DO operate with the NRDS policy that you have claimed so many times that we dont, It has been proven conclusively in this discussion you are not NRDS. You will fire on any neutral who is an enemy of the CVA. You have admitted this in your own words. You don't have any independence of standings or discretion to depart from CVA standings. I'm not sure why you are still trying to argue otherwise given you've already admitted these things previously. Quote: ... that we treat neutrals with respect until they take away there right to the respect we have given them, we dont seek your approval or acknowledgement nor seek or need it on this matter, as i said, anyone wanting to know our standings and policy need only ask our diplomats. You do not treat neutrals "with respect". You enforce the CVA standings regime. It really is very simple. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Frygok Minmatar Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.26 23:04:00 - [492] Isn't this just the same people discussing a topic that has been discussed over and over again? Discussing it is good if you actually intend on listening to the opposite sides arguments and take them to heart. All I see is the same points being made over and over again, with the response being "Yes, but my point is more important..." or "No, because this and this". Seems silly to continue doing it. Why not agree to disagree, and move on?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.26 23:19:00 - [493] Originally by: Frygok Isn't this just the same people discussing a topic that has been discussed over and over again? Discussing it is good if you actually intend on listening to the opposite sides arguments and take them to heart. All I see is the same points being made over and over again, with the response being "Yes, but my point is more important..." or "No, because this and this". Seems silly to continue doing it. Why not agree to disagree, and move on? Well you see, the thing is, neither "side" in this dispute is trying to convince the other of anything. All the debate and discussion that is going on is for the benefit of the hypothetical "neutral commentator" who might even be in a position to actually join one side or the other. I don't think anyone (at least on our side) has the least expectation that the CVA people will suddenly turn over a new leaf and say "you're right Jade, we're going to stop being authoritarian standings enclosurists and our bullying days are over!" But that doesn't make the debate any less important. See the thing is what is being discussed here is the nature of NRDS, neutral-respect, freedom and political independence in Eve. Its not a case of either side "proving" the other wrong and making them surrender the discussion, thats never going to happen. But it is the case that if one side can be shown to be telling falsehoods and falsely representing their position then it will be easier to attract allies and external forces to oppose that. Its my contention that CVA and their puppet states in Providence are profoundly deceitful and engaged in a systematic campaign of bullying and standings enclosure to defend their position there. Every one of said "puppets" (Like Renosha above) tends to underline the essential thrust of this argument. The irony is we aren't actually disagreeing about the facts most of the time either, but of the naming and interpretation of the facts. Renosha above thinks its perfectly fine to consider herself an anti pirate who considers anyone who attacks the CVA to be "a pirate". I happen to consider that being nothing more than a territorial attack dog working for a stronger power. I dare say the thread will eventually tail off when the CVA and subordinate alliances finally take Hardin's advice (thus far ignored) and realize they are doing themselves more harm than good by continuing this. But until that happens I'll be glad to correct their falsehoods and continue to state the truth of the situations in Providence. That said of course, the whole thing will ignite again the moment either side posts something contentious and since I'm already working on a new "Providence - political situation briefing" post I'm considering that tiring out the enemy propagandists on this thread will probably serve the interests of decent discussion on the new thread to come. Might work , lets keep our fingers crossed anyways "I might not have meant anything by it"
Renosha Argaron Caldari IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.26 23:23:00 - [494] Again more lie's from you jade, you just dont seem to want to listen so there is no point in arguing with you over OUR NRDS policy, no matter how many time's you tell people that we are not NRDS is not going to make it so, no matter how hard you try to push that lie upon the good people of EVE. You ask me for proof when you present none yourself of these so called actions against your EX pilot,just like you belive Bacchanalian implicitly, i also belive Dreamy implicitly, but there is one difference, Dreamy is still with us while your trustworthy pilot left SF to join Stimulus. And where exactly did i admit to anything? i fear you may be reading between the lines yet again and concocting yet more fables, and your statment was "territorial puppets" not "puppet States". Originally by: The Cosmopolite No contradiction whatever. I know precisely what I said and I know precisely why Jade used the term 'technical sovereignty'. We do believe space is free and we do believe that no alliance has an intrinsic right to claim absolute political sovereignty over any particular volume of space. We do accept that the technical business of claiming sovereignty as a gameplay mechanic is something that has to happen for 0.0 to be exploited and developed. Something we have always supported. How convenient yet again, now there are two types of sovereignty?...and you say you dont move the goalpost's, sovereignty is sovereignty no matter how you look at it, maybe you should tell CCP that there are two types now, well two types on your say so when it suits you. Originally by: The Cosmopolite Why we should dignify ridiculous and obviously untrue allegatons with refutation, I don't know. Your constant attempts to place divisions between the allies ranged against you continues to tell a tale all of its own You just have, and i would'nt expect you to openly admit on the forums the fact SF are using UK to fight jade's war for personal glory, but the fact jade saw fit to say nothing of these so called "untrue allegatons" when it was put to him in the first place speaks Volumes and i really do hope that UK are paying close attention. Regards Renosha
Renosha Argaron Caldari IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.26 23:25:00 - [495] Originally by: Frygok Isn't this just the same people discussing a topic that has been discussed over and over again? Discussing it is good if you actually intend on listening to the opposite sides arguments and take them to heart. All I see is the same points being made over and over again, with the response being "Yes, but my point is more important..." or "No, because this and this". Seems silly to continue doing it. Why not agree to disagree, and move on? You know what Frygok, i could'nt agree with you more, Only jade cant let it drop for some reason, you work it out as it baffles me. Regards Renosha
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.26 23:35:00 - [496] Originally by: Renosha Argaron Again more lie's from you jade, you just dont seem to want to listen so there is no point in arguing with you over OUR NRDS policy, no matter how many time's you tell people that we are not NRDS is not going to make it so, no matter how hard you try to push that lie upon the good people of EVE. I'm going to let you into a little secret now Renosha. If you want to demonstrate that a debating opponent is "lying" you need to present some evidence rather than jumping up and down and chanting "liar liar" with an excited tone of voice. Now, lets look at the issue one more time. You have admitted that you consider an attack on CVA to be an attack on yourself. That means its possible for a corporation you have never met anywhere in space to be set -10KOS by yourselves simply because they take a shot at the CVA. To them, you are going to look "neutral" - to you, they are going to look hostile (since you set them -10 for their attack on another entity). You consider the fact you've set this previously neutral corp red before your attack to excuse you from falling short of NRDS principles but the reality is that NRDS means more than simply setting the standing quickly before firing from surprise attack. NRDS tends to mean you respect neutrality, that you think before firing, that you use judgement and discretion, and that your opponents are likely to be bad people. But with Sev3rance, your standings are not your own, you subordinate yourself to the CVA. You are just hired attack dogs for a stronger power. You don't have any right to express high-minded principles because you don't have the freedom to live by them. It doesn't matter why somebody took a shot at the CVA. They become your enemy the moment they do. You don't have independent political existence Renosha and you don't have the right to claim to be anti-pirate, NRDS, or principled. Thats the hard truth. Quote: You ask me for proof when you present none yourself of these so called actions against your EX pilot,just like you belive Bacchanalian implicitly, i also belive Dreamy implicitly, but there is one difference, Dreamy is still with us while your trustworthy pilot left SF to join Stimulus. Dreamy fired at Bacchanalian. We know why he did. You know why he did. He fired at Bacc because our pilot was hunting CVA and pets who'd previously fired on us. He fired on bacc because Sev3rance have no independent standings regime and subordinate themselves always to the CVA standings list. He fired on bacc because he thought it might impress the CVA leadership. There is no disagreement here and it almost boggles the mind that you keep on thrashing this item relentlessly when we fundamentally agree on all the particulars. Dreamy considered Bacc a "pirate" because SF are enemies of the CVA right? We consider you guys are hired attack dogs without independence who attacked our pilot. We don't care why you did it. We just care that you did it. The war you have had to deal with for the last 120 days is a direct consequence of you choosing to involve yourself in somebody else's business. I really don't see what you are arguing about at this point. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.27 00:02:00 - [497] Originally by: Frygok Isn't this just the same people discussing a topic that has been discussed over and over again? Discussing it is good if you actually intend on listening to the opposite sides arguments and take them to heart. All I see is the same points being made over and over again, with the response being "Yes, but my point is more important..." or "No, because this and this". Seems silly to continue doing it. Why not agree to disagree, and move on? Good idea honestly... Our intentions and vies have been made quite clear by now to those who are willing to listen. It is also obvious that we and Amarr loyalists don't speak the same language when it comes to the topic at hand. Accusing each other of lies when we are really talking about the same thing just from a different point of view is getting old. Even I stopped following the discussion by page 15 and I don't think neutral onlookers can be very interested either. There will be other threads to argue in.
Renosha Argaron Caldari IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.27 00:21:00 - [498] Edited by: Renosha Argaron on 27/01/2008 00:21:21 Tecam Hund i agree, we are never going to agree on this subject, so lets just agree to disagree and lay this thread to rest. Regards Renosha
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.27 03:17:00 - [499] Originally by: Renosha Argaron Originally by: The Cosmopolite No contradiction whatever. I know precisely what I said and I know precisely why Jade used the term 'technical sovereignty'. We do believe space is free and we do believe that no alliance has an intrinsic right to claim absolute political sovereignty over any particular volume of space. We do accept that the technical business of claiming sovereignty as a gameplay mechanic is something that has to happen for 0.0 to be exploited and developed. Something we have always supported. How convenient yet again, now there are two types of sovereignty?...and you say you dont move the goalpost's, sovereignty is sovereignty no matter how you look at it, maybe you should tell CCP that there are two types now, well two types on your say so when it suits you. We simply consider that there is a difference between the game mechanic called 'sovereignty' and any political sovereignty that a given alliance might choose to claim or exert in a certain area of space. The fact is that alliances in EVE have been trying to exert political sovereignty in EVE since before the in-game alliance even existed as a mechanic and well before the 'sovereignty' mechanic became meaningful. Are you trying to suggest that there was no political sovereignty, claimed or actual, in EVE before CCP happened to provide a mechanic called 'sovereignty'. There is an overlap of course. The tools that the sovereignty mechanic provide can be used to claim and exert political sovereignty. But political sovereignty can potentially be claimed or exerted without them and the use of the sovereignty mechanic does not mean you are bound to claim or exert political sovereignty itself. They are different and it is useful to maintain a distinction. Certainly, I can see that Sev3rance consider the two concepts to be coterminous but that's your point-of-view. Our point-of-view is that they are not the same. One is a game mechanic, the other is a political state of affairs. Originally by: The Cosmopolite You just have, and i would'nt expect you to openly admit on the forums the fact SF are using UK to fight jade's war for personal glory, but the fact jade saw fit to say nothing of these so called "untrue allegatons" when it was put to him in the first place speaks Volumes and i really do hope that UK are paying close attention. I merely said they were obviously untrue. Which they are. Like most things you say, they are self-refuting. I simply pointed out that you are not entitled to assume Jade or anyone's view on it from their choosing to remain silent on the matter. I am sure U'K are paying close attention. I can't speak for them but I imagine they will chuckle, just as they chuckled at your allegations that we 'abandoned' the U'K and just as they chuckled at the CVA's allegations that we were bankrolling an impoverished U'K. Of course, the substantive point here is that you incurred U'Ks enmity. It was Sev3rance that chose to be hostile to the U'K and the U'K have been fighting Sev3rance directly for much longer that we in SF have. Indeed, when we first began our campaign, the hooting and hollering from Sev3rance was that SF were U'K's hired mercenaries or pets. Now you change the story because you find it convenient to try and suggest the reverse, not because you believe it (if you do, you are simply stupid) but because you want to inflame the pride of the U'K and cause divisions between us. Well, hear me and mark me well: the U'K have much to be proud of and they are a loyal and trustworthy group of friends and allies so far as SF are concerned. You insult them, disgustingly and without shame, when you suggest they are anyone's servants. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Kurald	Posted - 2008.01.27 09:15:00 - [500] might be a little late - but I just found the video on youtube for the attack. Providence goes Disco have fun. I hope it wasn't postet yet.

Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.01.27 11:12:00 - [501] In case the Hypocrite Fiction hasn't noticed yet: your 'psyops' aren't working as the greater public quite frankly doesn't care. Just a little reality check. Now recruiting!
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.27 11:27:00 - [502] Oh yes Tharrn? Then why does it outview all the other non-sticky threads on the page except for one at the time of this thread?
Snakester Caldari Blood and Money Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.27 12:33:00 - [503] Originally by: Jade Constantine DreamyÆs attack on a Star Fraction vessel is documented fact and no credible doubt exists as to what happened. The Star Fraction pilot was patrolling to find CVA targets, Sev3rance added SF to their Red List (on direction from CVA in Citadel channel) and engaged our vessel. As a consequence Sev3rance was set Red to SF and we reserved the right to take whatever action we thought appropriate in the future. Now, u sure it was "The Citadel" channel?. Havent u spoken about this to someone on your vent, or a personal convo, where u admitted your intel could of been wrong, and it wasn't this channel at all ?. Quite funny, as u have been told, it would of been worthless asking there, as it didn't happen in providence. BTW jade, u say u have infiltrated our fourms/intel channels, now that makes me feel better for when i do it to u, i was refraining from using this tactic, thank you for giving me the go ahead.It's amazing what u can get with Billions of isk at your disposal. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ayari Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.01.27 13:41:00 - [504] As an example of CVAs standings policy, as directed by 'The Citadel' channel, let me tell you a story: CAIN both lives in the north, and is welcome in Providence, as those from Star Fraction well know. To live in the north, we find it beneficial to our security to have allies who happen to be NBSI, as NRDS is not particularily popular up in that area of space. Now, at one point when we came down to Providence, one of the corporations in Mordus Angels was apparently pirating in Providence and CVA had them set to red. Did we suddenly backstab Mordus Angels and set them all red? No. We kept them at blue and had a few words with the Mordus Angels diplomats, to which they replied, "don't worry, we're going to kick that corp anyway." At no point did we adopt CVA standings regarding this matter, and at no point were we pressured into doing so by anyone from CVA. I don't know whether they have a special case for Star Fraction where they whip and cajole the people in 'The Citadel' to attack you, I certainly never saw evidence of that when I was there. But hey, we already have you set red for previous actions anyway. I've already stated that I agree with the stance that they take you off the list handed out on Citadel, or make a special clear distinction between NRDS and NBSI entities, but even if they did, the likelyhood is, many corps would set you red anyway, just because they knew they could. Allies have a tendency to unify standings lists between themselves to avoid situations when half your gang is able to engage, and half isn't. I can't imagine the chaos if people were to keep to their own standings lists exclusively, it would rule out ever working together with another corporation due to the sheer confusion differing standings cause in fleet ops. Your idea works if the corporation or alliance always flies alone, either through choice or because they're so big they don't need allies. But a lot of small corporations find flying with allies beneficial, both for the fun of a larger gang, and the experience and training that the other corporation can offer. Also, you still haven't answered my question about how the Star Fraction ideal of 'Freespace' offers incentives to be NRDS, and how it differs from what happens in places like Syndicate every day? Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Ztang Canary Amarr McDuff Industries	Posted - 2008.01.27 13:44:00 - [505] The Cosmopolite wrote: Quote: So... what? When someone says that A is a 'pirate' in one breath that is IC but when they say A uses 'log-off traps' with another breath that is OOC, is it? Sorry, not convincing. Citadel, other intel channels and various other public and not-so public arena are largely host to an audience that understands things to have a particular meaning in terms of EVE the game. Sorry, but this needs to be adressed. Mr. Cosmopolite..how can using a "log off trap" be ANYTHING but OOC?? I mean...I certainly hope that when you guys sit out there rp'ing to your hearts content (which I assume (being an old rp'er myself) is conducted in IC) you dont use such tactics? I would have thought that for you guys, roleplayers, you would understand that when you roleplay a spacepilot, there is NO such option or thing as "logging off"...or Ctrl+Q to save your butts? amirite? If you accept loggofski and ctrl+q as part of rp, well ...then youre loosing a bit of respect from this pilot. Id like to hear your views on this, mr. Cosmopolite...in fact, Id be very interested...would show how deep this roleplaying really goes with you guys! If youre serious about your rp, you cannot logoff when things get hot...you cannot ctrl+q to save your pod. Youre out there...nothing else exists! ************* Ztang Canary
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.27 14:36:00 - [506] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 27/01/2008 14:38:13 you misread Cosmo Ztang. He was making the same point you are. Unfortunately, it is an invalid point because IC and OOC are by no means as black and white as I would like them to be. A "log on trap" while being stupid and lame, is an action that has IC consequences. ICly, a log on trap exists with some technobabble to explain how these ships are coming into existence out of nowhere. Is it still lame, hell yes, but is it entirely OOC, no. If you use a channel that is basically OOC to organise an in game action, said channel is no longer purely OOC. The rule of thumb I use is: Anything with in game consequences is to some extent IC. As the Citadel caters more to non-RP types than to CVA and RP allies, conversation there is OOC. But it is a very real defence channel to our players. You just have to translate the OOC stuff into IC terms. Just as most of this thread is IC. Especially anything Jade has posted. Of course, when RPers let it slide that much, it is sad, because RPers should know better. So calling U'K a pirate group has very strong in game consequences. It is CVA telling their allies that they need to watch themselves around U'K and that CVA will smile upon U'K being shot by neutrals. Nothing could be more in character. Pirate=dangerous outlaw in CVA speak. It has in game consequences, and is therefore representative of IC concepts. Its really that simple. So if these accusations of the title pirate as OOC would stop, and people would start dealing with it as the relatively weak IC label it is, the whole U'K and CVA conflict would improve dramatically. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Sinia Shadow Council	Posted - 2008.01.27 15:53:00 - [507] Edited by: Sinia on 27/01/2008 15:56:09 Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 15:12:05 Originally by: Requiescat It doesn't work, btw. Any other part of EVE, everything is NBSI. Why don't you just drop the pretense and say you were defending your space? NBSI is a legitimate way of consolidating claimed space through force, ousting pirates and unfriendlies and whatnot. If someone wants to fly in your space they can contact your alliance's high command for standings, very easy, very difficult to get around in the event of a dispute. But what you're trying to do here is pretend you're the good guy, which you're pretty much not. No matter what you say, Dreamy couldn't have been red at the time you shot him, so you were in effect not practicing NRDS. Very simple. Chest-beating is one thing but blind denial of facts and manifest evidence is just silly, however this is CAOD, so... quack Thats pretty much our argument Requiescat thank you. Its not so much the fact they choose to shoot us from neutral in defense of the CVA regime that causes all this debate. Its the fact they try to pretend to be NRDS anti-pirate while doing it. For the record though (and I'll grant Snakesters account is a bit confusing) Dreamy was the Sev3rance pilot that fired upon a Star Fraction pilot Bacchanalian originally to start this war. Gamelog Listener: Bacchanalian Session started: 2007.03.17 22:52:34 ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 2007.03.17 22:52:40 ] (notify) Warping to Stargate (Teshkat) [ 2007.03.17 22:52:47 ] (notify) Dreamy: You have foolishly engaged in criminal activity within sight of sentry guns and must suffer the consequences. [ 2007.03.17 22:52:49 ] (notify) Dreamy (Vulture) has started trying to warp scramble you. So, Dreamy shot at one of your pilots FIVE DAYS AFTER STAR FRACTION ENGAGED SEVERENCE PILOTS DURING THE SIEGE OF QR or are you now denying that you assisted Ushra'Khan in the defence of that system? The date of that battle was 2007.03.12. Nice try ofcourse. Or do you seriously expect you can show up in QR, engage the severence dreads that were shooting at a pos and then not have them shoot you when they see you in low sec a week later?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:14:00 - [508] On level its quite amusing that the thread is now about CVA-bloc posters alleging crazy stories with no proof to excuse their policies and being immediately rebuffed by the facts. It certainly does wonders to show which side actually has enough respect for the general CAOD audience to present facts rather than the most spurious accusations imaginable. So then. Quote: So, Dreamy shot at one of your pilots FIVE DAYS AFTER STAR FRACTION ENGAGED SEVERENCE PILOTS DURING THE SIEGE OF QR or are you now denying that you assisted Ushra'Khan in the defence of that system? The date of that battle was 2007.03.12. Nice try ofcourse. Or do you seriously expect you can show up in QR, engage the severence dreads that were shooting at a pos and then not have them shoot you when they see you in low sec a week later? I'm reviewing the QR operations campaign over-view right now. It was probably SF's most significant sequence of losses in any war or campaign in a short timescale. But what the overview shows is that while we lost 95 ships over the 4 days of the engagement (killing 14 of the enemy and being involved in the destruction of 1 CVA Dreadnaught) None of our ship losses AND None of our kills Featured Sev3rance involvement. Thats right. 109 engagements ending in ship loss involving SF pilots over 4 days of fighting and Zero involvement of Sev3rance. I imagine you are going to apologize for lying to CAOD now Sinia? "I might not have meant anything by it"
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:14:00 - [509] Originally by: Sinia So, Dreamy shot at one of your pilots FIVE DAYS AFTER STAR FRACTION ENGAGED SEVERENCE PILOTS DURING THE SIEGE OF QR or are you now denying that you assisted Ushra'Khan in the defence of that system? The date of that battle was 2007.03.12. Nice try ofcourse. I deny absolutely and without qualification that any Sev3rance pilots were engaged by Star Fraction pilots or assets during the siege of QR. One who speaks sarcastically and cynically of a 'nice try' should take care that they are not themselves setting up a false antinomy with their 'or' conjunction. The Star Fraction assisted the Ushra'Khan in its defence of a free and open outpost from an aggressive assault by the CVA and various allies. We did so on the clear condition that we would not engage any forces neutral to us who did not first aggress our pilots. No Sev3rance pilots aggressed us at the battle. Our pilots engaged no Sev3rance pilots at the battle. Our pilots were under orders to disregard any targetting commands aimed at forces neutral to us. I was present at the battle and while CVA, VV, AM, Cold Steel (who had aggressed us some days earlier) and various other existing -10 and hostile entities were engaged, there was no combat exchange of any kind between SF and Sev3rance. So, your point is an empty one. A try, certainly, but not particularly compelling or nice. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:38:00 - [510] Edited by: Kabajashi San on 27/01/2008 16:46:47 Sorry, Gaven, but you keep beating a dead horse. I and many of the UK mates consider the term pirate as something which is connected to a certain playing style that includes attacking any random neut for the loot or ransom you may get out of it. It is a style that we, as many others, refuse because it doesn't add to the fun of the game. Moreover the way CVA uses the term it intentionally hurts UK OOC relations to other players and hinders an effective recruitment. It's not CVA-speak we are talking about, it is EVE-speak. It is not whether an OOC terms has IC consequences, it is about an IC term having OOC (and partly OOG) consequences. There is no fun in explaining time and time again that we have a reason for shooting people and are not pirating. It just plain sucks tbh. Now you can either accept that and for the good of the UK/CVA relation (what's left of it) try to replace it with more IC terms (as many of your comrades do) or you can just go on ranting about it how we have to deal with it. This is BS really. my two cents. /edit: just realized you are in PIE. Still my points stands.

The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:38:00 - [511] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri you misread Cosmo Ztang. The first thing to be said is that Gaven is quite right and nothing I have said expresses any approval for the use of log-off traps or suggests that they can in any way be legitimated by some veneer of RP that someone might conjure up. Please do take careful note that Gaven himself accepts that actions which can have IC consequences can be OOCly 'lame and stupid'. He does seem to accept that actions that have IC consequences can be legitimately subject to general OOC opprobrium. Quote: [Cosmo] was making the same point you are. Unfortunately, it is an invalid point because IC and OOC are by no means as black and white as I would like them to be. Well, the problem whenever you and I discuss this, Gaven, is that we both agree that the IC and the OOC are fuzzy and merge the one into the other but we each draw quite different conclusions from that reality. What I find interesting in what you say here is that it is probably the clearest statement yet, from you, that you consider that, to paraphrase Corneille, in the service of the character, everything is legitimate. For I am not sure what other construction can be put on your statement that: "Anything with in game consequences is to some extent IC." Now, I know that this is your particular and personal view. I also believe that it is a statement that the CVA simply cannot and will not go along with because to do so is to accept all its logical corollaries, many of which they are on record as believing to be distasteful (though.. well, let us not go there today, nobody is perfect). I would say, the statement is, taken at face value, simply a blank cheque for legitimating virtually any action one could think of that would have some in-game consequence, or at any rate insulating it from the dread scourge that is OOC criticism. Gaven, you mean to defend what is said by CVA and their various allies in various OOC channels, forums and arenas, as being in part IC and therefore not to be criticised in OOC terms. Indeed, you declared yourself 'bored' with 'OOC attacks' on the CVA. Yet, and this can be demonstrated fairly easily, such 'OOC attacks' have in-game consequences. They therefore are legitimated by your own logic. This is where it takes you if you apply it evenly. Quote: As the Citadel caters more to non-RP types than to CVA and RP allies, conversation there is OOC. But it is a very real defence channel to our players. You just have to translate the OOC stuff into IC terms. But, you see, you are not addressing the real point here and you reveal it when you say that some 'you' has to 'translate' the OOC into IC. Who is this 'you' that you speak of? Well, I can only imagine you mean people who think the IC and OOC have meaning to begin with. You therefore mean, in general, RPers. Now that point of people 'translating' and turning some RPer cheek to something that might be OOC might have some power were it only RPers that were the issue here. The problem, Gaven, is that they are not the only people involved and you yourself accept this quite clearly. The problem is that the OOC meaning of the term is being relied on to effect in-game consequence. If that is legitimate, then it means any thing I care to say about the CVA is legitimate assuming it has in-game consequences. That really cannot be so. You say that 'pirate = dangerous outlaw' in CVA-speak. I say, you can only legitimately excuse its use as such among an audience that all understand that. If the audience do not understand that, and particularly if CVA people using the term know this (as I believe they surely must), then the use of the term is irresponsible at best and deceitful at worst. Just as you feel able to deem the IC consequence-inducing act that is a 'log-off trap' as being 'lame and stupid' (surely OOCly), so I feel able to say the use of the term 'pirate' when the intent is to smear OOCly, is a disgraceful lie. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Ayari Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:10:00 - [512] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Ayari Also, you still haven't answered my question about how the Star Fraction ideal of 'Freespace' offers incentives to be NRDS, and how it differs from what happens in places like Syndicate every day? If you need an "incentive" to enjoy your political independence and free association with neutrals beyond the ability of an authoritarian state telling you what to think and set and engage then you probably aren't the sort of pilot that the freespace movement is ever going to appeal to. The Star Fraction freespace ethos is for honest, proud, capable and confident free captains who don't need other people telling them who is good and who is bad (they are smart and perceptive enough to make their own minds up). Its a concept that is never going to appeal to "followers" and people who seek the protection of herds. The only "incentive" is that you get to think for yourself. Scary I know, but some people like that sort of thing. Then you're not promoting NRDS at all really. The great majority of 0.0 players have already selected NBSI as their playstyle, and there's no reason for them to change. CVA offer an alternative way of living in 0.0, Star Fraction want to remove it, without replacing it with a different choice that would lead to more NRDS entities. Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Faridah Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.28 09:00:00 - [513] Originally by: Kovid Oh yes Tharrn? Then why does it outview all the other non-sticky threads on the page except for one at the time of this thread? Because Jade has jammed F5 with a toothpick to not miss a point argue about.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:45:00 - [514] Originally by: Ayari Then you're not promoting NRDS at all really. The great majority of 0.0 players have already selected NBSI as their playstyle, and there's no reason for them to change. CVA offer an alternative way of living in 0.0, Star Fraction want to remove it, without replacing it with a different choice that would lead to more NRDS entities. On the contrary, we are promoting the essential truth behind the nature of true NRDS, which is an actual respect for neutrality and the freedom and confidence to judge other neutral entities in 0.0 based on their actions rather than what other third party entities might say about them. You are correct in one way, yes, a majority of 0.0 players have selected NBSI as their playstyle (or rather their leaders have) and the consequence of this is exactly the same kind of standings enclosurism that we see in the CVA Providence zone. In many ways traditional NBSI standings enforcement is identical to CVA enclosurist enforcement, the only difference is that rather than relying on a forced +list that all residents must implement the CVA rely on a forced -list that all residents must implement. For an NBSI power all not on their +list are assumed to be KOS for their footsoldiers and allies. For CVA all on their -list are assumed to be KOS for their footsoldiers and allies. Its two ways of achieving precisely the same desired effect and that desire is control and domination of space. Thus the CVA implementation of technical NRDS is simply a PR stunt really. The huge majority of providence "residents" are under their direct control with citadel rights dependent on the adoption of a preset KOS list. The huge majority of their enemies are already Red and with that Red status transfered to each subordinate power. Thus its my contention that the CVA regime in Providence is NOT actually an alternative to the centralized top-down standings regimes of deep 0.0 NBSI powers. Its just the same in every important respect of standings administration and policy. For a true alternative you need to break free of the concept of "my enemy must automatically be your enemy" which is at the root of all imperialist dogma on the 0.0 frontier. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:35:00 - [515] Originally by: Jade Constantine On the contrary, we are promoting the essential truth behind the nature of true NRDS, which is an actual respect for neutrality and the freedom and confidence to judge other neutral entities in 0.0 based on their actions rather than what other third party entities might say about them. CVA already does this. You can go away now. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:03:00 - [516] Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Jade Constantine On the contrary, we are promoting the essential truth behind the nature of true NRDS, which is an actual respect for neutrality and the freedom and confidence to judge other neutral entities in 0.0 based on their actions rather than what other third party entities might say about them. CVA already does this. You can go away now. Well they clearly don't Janu Hull. Hence this discussion. What they actually do is misreport other NRDS entities as "pirates" thereby fooling neutrals into shooting neutrals. If you want to disprove my contention you are going to have to put some work into actually "disproving" it. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:23:00 - [517] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Jade Constantine On the contrary, we are promoting the essential truth behind the nature of true NRDS, which is an actual respect for neutrality and the freedom and confidence to judge other neutral entities in 0.0 based on their actions rather than what other third party entities might say about them. CVA already does this. You can go away now. Well they clearly don't Janu Hull. Hence this discussion. What they actually do is misreport other NRDS entities as "pirates" thereby fooling neutrals into shooting neutrals. If you want to disprove my contention you are going to have to put some work into actually "disproving" it. 1) CVA doesn't call Star Fraction "pirates". In fact, some of the things they call you aren't fit to repeat on this forum... 2) If you want neutrals to stop shooting you, talk to CVA's diplomats, say you're sorry you irritated them, have them adjust standings, and the rest of us will respect their decision and stop shooting you. 3) If you're serious about NRDS, please tell your Stealth Bomber flying monkey to stop camping the 9UY gate and go bang on his typewriter somewhere else. Yeah, not overly relevent to the current discussion, but it would be a nice gesture. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Adrian Steel Caldari The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:20:00 - [518] Originally by: Janu Hull 3) If you're serious about NRDS, please tell your Stealth Bomber flying monkey to stop camping the 9UY gate and go bang on his typewriter somewhere else. Yeah, not overly relevent to the current discussion, but it would be a nice gesture. I'm just glad I could oblige Janu! How does it feel to have all of Providence's shipping terrorized by one pilot? I'm quite serious about NRDS too! So much so, that I only shoot -10's. Could you imagine that!?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:29:00 - [519] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/01/2008 18:29:47 Quote: 1) CVA doesn't call Star Fraction "pirates". In fact, some of the things they call you aren't fit to repeat on this forum... CVA does refer to SF as "pirates" and keeps our name on a list of "Pirates" and NBSI hostiles - and many of their own members and allies have admitted that in this very thread. If you are going to keep arguing here you best check your facts first. At the moment you are making your side of the argument look rather silly. Quote: 2) If you want neutrals to stop shooting you, talk to CVA's diplomats, say you're sorry you irritated them, have them adjust standings, and the rest of us will respect their decision and stop shooting you. Are you currently shooting us? When I asked you to clarify the issue you clammed up and stopped answering questions. Who are you speaking for when you say "the rest of us". At the moment I think your hostility is "forum only hostility" but I'd be glad to be proven wrong on this particular point. Quote: 3) If you're serious about NRDS, please tell your Stealth Bomber flying monkey to stop camping the 9UY gate and go bang on his typewriter somewhere else. Yeah, not overly relevent to the current discussion, but it would be a nice gesture. Request denied. Our pilots are engaging only those corporations and alliances who have aggressed the star fraction in the past and have full rights and freedom to do that. Any targets of opportunity have it coming. They choose to involve themselves in somebody else's war and their members will pay the price. We understand the nature of NRDS far better than you do Janu. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:49:00 - [520] Originally by: Adrian Steel Originally by: Janu Hull 3) If you're serious about NRDS, please tell your Stealth Bomber flying monkey to stop camping the 9UY gate and go bang on his typewriter somewhere else. Yeah, not overly relevent to the current discussion, but it would be a nice gesture. I'm just glad I could oblige Janu! How does it feel to have all of Providence's shipping terrorized by one pilot? I'm quite serious about NRDS too! So much so, that I only shoot -10's. Could you imagine that!? Actually, given that I was told you were smacking in local, I would probably respect you more if you stuck with F1-F8. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.

Boom ChickaBoom Caldari Friendly Pod Poppers	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:06:00 - [521] I dont want to seem like an arse but could someone please lock this thread it has gone way off topic. i Is always at the top of the new post with the dumb good to be back post. i do not like scrolling through walls of text and I do not like scrolling through walls of the same posts that have run there course. Again someone please do the right thing and lock this thread.
Adrian Steel Caldari The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:06:00 - [522] Originally by: Janu Hull Actually, given that I was told you were smacking in local, I would probably respect you more if you stuck with F1-F8. I was told your mother was a toothless prostitute, and I would probably respect you more if you stuck to issues that you are in a position to discuss.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:14:00 - [523] Originally by: Jade Constantine Are you currently shooting us? When I asked you to clarify the issue you clammed up and stopped answering questions. Who are you speaking for when you say "the rest of us". At the moment I think your hostility is "forum only hostility" but I'd be glad to be proven wrong on this particular point. I am not currently shooting at anyone. When I arrived in Providence, I had a ratting ship and 6 million ISK. Not exactly in a position to be engaging ANYONE. That situation changed dramatically over the weekend. I'll be seeing you around, and I will not be alone. ;) In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:35:00 - [524] Originally by: Janu Hull I am not currently shooting at anyone. When I arrived in Providence, I had a ratting ship and 6 million ISK. Not exactly in a position to be engaging ANYONE. That situation changed dramatically over the weekend. I'll be seeing you around, and I will not be alone. ;) Can you now confirm then that DMC will be firing on Star Fraction? I would appreciate it if you would be good enough to get one of your alliance representatives to contact us with a heads up of their intended aggression if this is the case. Beyond the extremely cheap and cheesy "surprise attack" aspect of getting first shots on our ships I just can't see why you are delaying making this official if you intend to fire on our ships anyways. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:52:00 - [525] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Janu Hull I am not currently shooting at anyone. When I arrived in Providence, I had a ratting ship and 6 million ISK. Not exactly in a position to be engaging ANYONE. That situation changed dramatically over the weekend. I'll be seeing you around, and I will not be alone. ;) Can you now confirm then that DMC will be firing on Star Fraction? I would appreciate it if you would be good enough to get one of your alliance representatives to contact us with a heads up of their intended aggression if this is the case. Beyond the extremely cheap and cheesy "surprise attack" aspect of getting first shots on our ships I just can't see why you are delaying making this official if you intend to fire on our ships anyways. Jade, Jade, Jade, you disappoint me so. You talk to me like I'm some kind of pawn of my alliance. Where is this glorious philosophy of yours about being free of the chains of power structures when you face a challenge with a request for someone higher in the chain of command? I can assure you, I am fully capable of acting on my own initiative. Others may follow, and they may be alliance members, or they may not. You never know. Individual initiative is unpredictable like that. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Liet Traep Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.12 06:14:00 - [526] As a stealth bomber fan i love this tactic. I've always thought Stealth Bombers are used en masse for a massive alpha strike. I've never had the fortune to be in a really big gang of them though. Even in smaller gangs they can be nasty. [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgame
royal killer Amarr The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:42:00 - [527] 2 thumbs up for a great post Know its a bit late, but i just found this post and its awesome --------------------
Inosin Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.02.23 17:59:00 - [528] Ever thought about using real bombs for bombing? With 8-10 Bombers you can do abbout 30k-50k Damage or more in 10 Seconds. If you have 50 Bombers you can attack in 5 waves (a wave every 10 seconds) and do 150k Damage to everything in 15km Range in under a Minute. Then all leftBombers cancome for a second Attack. And Bombs make shiny and nice looking explosions this should provide fun too.
greeny knight Amarr Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.02.23 19:33:00 - [529] ***rrrrrrr......... 30 days left . . . . . . . . . I shall return No not the straitjacket ....... not .... the .....pi..llllll..ssss Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.02.23 21:01:00 - [530] Edited by: marakor on 23/02/2008 21:05:45 Originally by: Inosin Ever thought about using real bombs for bombing? With 8-10 Bombers you can do abbout 30k-50k Damage or more in 10 Seconds. If you have 50 Bombers you can attack in 5 waves (a wave every 10 seconds) and do 150k Damage to everything in 15km Range in under a Minute. Then all leftBombers cancome for a second Attack. And Bombs make shiny and nice looking explosions this should provide fun too. I understand what you want to do but id suggest you spend a bit of time on the test server before you make tactical suggestions on how to use bombs. A group of us tried out differing anti fleet/blob tactics on the test server using bombers and although we had some good successes its a bit more complicated than just using waves if you wish too kill more than just a couple of ships. HEY LISTEN for ruler of eve.

Crimsonjade Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.02.24 02:27:00 - [531] Originally by: Jade Constantine For a true alternative you need to break free of the concept of "my enemy must automatically be your enemy" which is at the root of all imperialist dogma on the 0.0 frontier. god i missed your posting on the forums :)
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.02.24 07:50:00 - [532] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Jade Constantine On the contrary, we are promoting the essential truth behind the nature of true NRDS, which is an actual respect for neutrality and the freedom and confidence to judge other neutral entities in 0.0 based on their actions rather than what other third party entities might say about them. CVA already does this. You can go away now. Well they clearly don't Janu Hull. Hence this discussion. What they actually do is misreport other NRDS entities as "pirates" thereby fooling neutrals into shooting neutrals. If you want to disprove my contention you are going to have to put some work into actually "disproving" it. It all depends on what you call a pirate. To me, piracy is killing/ransoming somebody for loot/isk. It is all a moral judgement, so it is a subjective term. IRON has an NBSI policy, even though some of our "blues" reguarly shoot our other "blues". we simply don't get involved, unless there are prior treaty agreements that need to be honored. The problem with your thinking Jade, is that in any system with finite resources, there is no true Neutrality. Organizations compete for space and resources. "neutral" simply means you haven't ****ed somebody off enough to set you red. Red means you are actively hunted, Neutral means not going to far out of the way to kill.


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