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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.01.13 05:26:00 -
[1]
Several days ago people were chatting about which superhero (or person with superpowers) they'd want to be and Haruhi was tossed out as the best because she is nearly a god in her ability to create new universes (or change reality...I forget which).
While at a pub earlier I was discussing this with a friend and he reminded me of the Living Tribunal who has power over all realities. Presumably this would mean he also has power over anything Haruhi creates.
Then we also discussed how due to this Haruhi cannot be considered a god. Just a very powerful being. To be a god she'd really need to exist outside of all realities. As a part of the universe, even ones she creates, she is something less than a god.
I still think Bugs Bunny beats all but that is another discussion.
Opinions?
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.01.13 05:26:00 -
[2]
Several days ago people were chatting about which superhero (or person with superpowers) they'd want to be and Haruhi was tossed out as the best because she is nearly a god in her ability to create new universes (or change reality...I forget which).
While at a pub earlier I was discussing this with a friend and he reminded me of the Living Tribunal who has power over all realities. Presumably this would mean he also has power over anything Haruhi creates.
Then we also discussed how due to this Haruhi cannot be considered a god. Just a very powerful being. To be a god she'd really need to exist outside of all realities. As a part of the universe, even ones she creates, she is something less than a god.
I still think Bugs Bunny beats all but that is another discussion.
Opinions?
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Buchatar
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.13 05:29:00 -
[3]
I'ma gunna get mes a bunny wabbit!
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Yes, ofcourse I mine for fish... got a problem with that?
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Buchatar
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.13 05:29:00 -
[4]
I'ma gunna get mes a bunny wabbit!
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Yes, ofcourse I mine for fish... got a problem with that?
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.01.13 05:31:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Buchatar
I'ma gunna get mes a bunny wabbit!
Elmer Fudd vs. Haruhi...there'd be a good battle.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.01.13 05:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Buchatar
I'ma gunna get mes a bunny wabbit!
Elmer Fudd vs. Haruhi...there'd be a good battle.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 06:26:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/01/2008 06:33:52
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Several days ago people were chatting about which superhero (or person with superpowers) they'd want to be and Haruhi was tossed out as the best because she is nearly a god in her ability to create new universes (or change reality...I forget which).
While at a pub earlier I was discussing this with a friend and he reminded me of the Living Tribunal who has power over all realities. Presumably this would mean he also has power over anything Haruhi creates.
Then we also discussed how due to this Haruhi cannot be considered a god. Just a very powerful being. To be a god she'd really need to exist outside of all realities. As a part of the universe, even ones she creates, she is something less than a god.
I still think Bugs Bunny beats all but that is another discussion.
Opinions?
Anything with ultimate power has the ability to choose to exist in any reality that it creates. If it can't do that, its not ultimate power, right? I've always liked the theory that Haruhi is fully aware of her divinity, but thought it would be fun to try life as a human, without the knowledge that she is God (and with her subconcious consistently thwarting any such thought). This makes sense after the events of "Snow Mountain Syndrome," where Haruhi buys Koizumi's absolutely bat**** insane explanation of the events of the story.
Anyways, one cannot make any claims or theories about something outside of the reality one exists in, so all such questions are meaningless.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.01.13 06:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Several days ago people were chatting about which superhero (or person with superpowers) they'd want to be and Haruhi was tossed out as the best because she is nearly a god in her ability to create new universes (or change reality...I forget which).
While at a pub earlier I was discussing this with a friend and he reminded me of the Living Tribunal who has power over all realities. Presumably this would mean he also has power over anything Haruhi creates.
Then we also discussed how due to this Haruhi cannot be considered a god. Just a very powerful being. To be a god she'd really need to exist outside of all realities. As a part of the universe, even ones she creates, she is something less than a god.
I still think Bugs Bunny beats all but that is another discussion.
Opinions?
Anything with ultimate power has the ability to choose to exist in any reality that it creates. If it can't do that, its not ultimate power, right?
Isn't that essentially a variant on the omnipotence paradox?
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 06:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Amarria Black
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Several days ago people were chatting about which superhero (or person with superpowers) they'd want to be and Haruhi was tossed out as the best because she is nearly a god in her ability to create new universes (or change reality...I forget which).
While at a pub earlier I was discussing this with a friend and he reminded me of the Living Tribunal who has power over all realities. Presumably this would mean he also has power over anything Haruhi creates.
Then we also discussed how due to this Haruhi cannot be considered a god. Just a very powerful being. To be a god she'd really need to exist outside of all realities. As a part of the universe, even ones she creates, she is something less than a god.
I still think Bugs Bunny beats all but that is another discussion.
Opinions?
Anything with ultimate power has the ability to choose to exist in any reality that it creates. If it can't do that, its not ultimate power, right?
Isn't that essentially a variant on the omnipotence paradox?
Not really. The omnipotence paradox is "can God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?" But that is essentially a logical fallacy to begin with.
My point is that anything with the ability to manipulate reality has the ability, by definition, to take part in the reality it manipulates.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.01.13 07:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
... the luck of Teela Brown (except more extreme) ...
Since this is an epic nerdgasm thread: I thought Teela Brown wasn't the luckiest person alive, as such would keep her the hell away from the Ringworld in the first place. She was just far more "lucky" genetically than your average human. My search fu is failing at the moment, but I swear that there was another character who made her look like an amateur. It may have been another Known Space character, or I may be completely and totally insane.
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 07:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Amarria Black
Originally by: Dark Shikari
... the luck of Teela Brown (except more extreme) ...
Since this is an epic nerdgasm thread: I thought Teela Brown wasn't the luckiest person alive, as such would keep her the hell away from the Ringworld in the first place. She was just far more "lucky" genetically than your average human. My search fu is failing at the moment, but I swear that there was another character who made her look like an amateur. It may have been another Known Space character, or I may be completely and totally insane.
Of course, it depends how you interpret "luck." In Teela's case, perhaps luck meant most likely to survive--in Haruhi's case, luck means most likely to get into bizarre (and therefore to her, interesting) situations.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.01.13 07:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Of course, it depends how you interpret "luck." In Teela's case, perhaps luck meant most likely to survive--in Haruhi's case, luck means most likely to get into bizarre (and therefore to her, interesting) situations.
I suppose if you're essentially omnipotent, keeping yourself entertained is as noble a cause as any. 
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 07:31:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/01/2008 07:34:05
Also, something very dangerous happened two nights ago in relation to me and Haruhi.
I sat down at my computer for three hours and wrote a fanfic. In my usual writing method, the "type really fast until you're done and then spent five minutes editing the result" method, I somehow churned out a dozen pages in three hours.
This is extremely bad, because it means that, should I continue this trend, I may no longer be able to safely make fun of horrible fanfics. On the off chance that my writing is actually good, of course, I can continue the mockery.
If anyone wants to tear me apart, feel free to read it. I strongly suggest you read Snow Mountain Syndrome before this.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.01.13 08:05:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 13/01/2008 08:05:43
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Anything with ultimate power has the ability to choose to exist in any reality that it creates. If it can't do that, its not ultimate power, right? I've always liked the theory that Haruhi is fully aware of her divinity, but thought it would be fun to try life as a human, without the knowledge that she is God (and with her subconcious consistently thwarting any such thought). This makes sense after the events of "Snow Mountain Syndrome," where Haruhi buys Koizumi's absolutely bat**** insane explanation of the events of the story.
Anyways, one cannot make any claims or theories about something outside of the reality one exists in, so all such questions are meaningless.
A few points.
The Living Tribunal has power over the Metaverse. Sort of an all encompassing thing that includes any alternate realities/new universes/drug induced hazes you care to think of. Presumably anything Haruhi creates falls within this bailiwick. Actually in the Marvel line there is the One-Above-All who truly is God (above the Living Tribunal).
As for Haruhi being fully aware of her divinity has some interesting corollaries. I have never received a satisfactory answer (just dodges) on whether Jesus was aware of his divinity. Seems like he wasn't but then maybe he was...dunno. The implications of what he knew about that to me says a lot about his motivations and decisions. Not trying to turn this into a religion discussion because it is prohibited but the underlying ideas are interesting.
And certainly a God could participate in the realities they create but they must, by definition, exist apart from that reality (because they had to exist before the reality/universe was created in order to create it). So Haruhi may be god slumming it on Earth but if she is God she has an existence apart from the reality she currently partakes in. (As an aside if someone random dude walked up and put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger would she die or subconsciously avoid it?)
And lastly while you are correct WE cannot make any claims about realities/universes that are apart from ours we are discussing works of fiction where that is exactly what happens so we are free to speculate on the stories.
EDIT: Is there on online copy of Snow Mountain Syndrome to be had?
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 08:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
EDIT: Is there on online copy of Snow Mountain Syndrome to be had?
The full Haruhi Suzumiya series can be read online at Baka-Tsuki.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.01.13 08:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I'm of the opinion that such a thing could not happen in her reality; it is not physically possible. Haruhi would be a true form of "quantum immortality"; reality literally cannot take a course that would result in her death, so such a question is moot.
IE only collapses the waveform of her metareality into the state in which Person A doesn't pull the trigger, or doesn't have the gun, or wherein the gun jams, etc.
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.01.13 08:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Haruhi would be a true form of "quantum immortality"; reality literally cannot take a course that would result in her death, so such a question is moot.
Then I would argue if she is God trying to experience life on earth she has arranged things wrongly. If she makes a reality where she cannot be killed then she cannot truly experience the life she is supposedly after.
It'd be like us saying we have a sense of what it is like to engage in spaceship combat because we play EVE Online. Clearly that is not true. It is a make believe world where we are all effectively immortal (as long as CCP does not pull the plug at least).
Apart from the fantasy of spaceship battle no one can truly say they understand battle of any sort unless they literally have their life on the line. Anything less is a game and misses the point. I would think if Haruhi was God she'd understand that before entering the world.
Again going back to more earthly theology Jesus, who by dogma IS God, died at the hands of mortals.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.01.13 09:07:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 13/01/2008 09:07:29
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Haruhi would be a true form of "quantum immortality"; reality literally cannot take a course that would result in her death, so such a question is moot.
Then I would argue if she is God trying to experience life on earth she has arranged things wrongly. If she makes a reality where she cannot be killed then she cannot truly experience the life she is supposedly after (you're missing a fundamental component of life if you have no worries of death which every other living thing faces).
It'd be like us saying we have a sense of what it is like to engage in spaceship combat because we play EVE Online. Clearly that is not true. It is a make believe world where we are all effectively immortal (as long as CCP does not pull the plug at least). Without a doubt that changes how we approach "living" in EVE.
Apart from the fantasy of spaceship battle no one can truly say they understand battle of any sort unless they literally have their life on the line. Anything less is a game and misses the point. I would think if Haruhi was God she'd understand that before entering the world.
Again going back to more earthly theology Jesus, who by dogma IS God, died at the hands of mortals.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.01.13 10:26:00 -
[19]
Currently reading the collected Haruhi Suzumiya series from that link you provided, DS. Curse you and your finding my one weakness: an insatiable urge to consume literature.
First impression: She's Lain at the beginning of SEL. It's her world, she just doesn't know it yet.
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2008.01.13 10:43:00 -
[20]
Surely, if a superhero has the power to control all realities that means every rape, every murder happens because he allows it. Hero?
----
Anything less is wasted effort |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.01.13 11:17:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Adonis 4174
Surely, if a superhero has the power to control all realities that means every rape, every murder happens because he allows it. Hero?
Not so easy as that. A few issues:
- Free will
- There is no "good" without "evil" (or white without black or cold without hot and so on).
- You assume a benevolent god. No particular reason a god can't be a jerk.
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Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.13 11:33:00 -
[22]
Throwing in my 2 pence as the apparent sole beleiver of Kyonism here....
What defines a God, the ability to change the world or to change the one who changes it?
This would be an example of the God Paradox, as if god is infinite in power then nothing should be able to have power over it, hence Kyon who would be a better candidate for god.
There is also the concept of conspiracy in the series, and is it not possible that Kyon is god, and merely created the IDI/Organisation after being told of their existence?
He trusts Nagato, when she tells god she is an alien, she is an alien, all that matters is that god beleived that to be reality.
~Nyron
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan
But poor victimized Ulf...I weep lavender scented tears for you.
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Throdax
Caldari
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.13 12:28:00 -
[23]
3 Words:
Lady of Pain.
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TrustThePilot
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.01.13 14:35:00 -
[24]
The sole purpose of anime is to steal time from children
_
Girlfriend strikes you perfectly, wrecking your life. |
Dark Shikari
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 14:59:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/01/2008 15:02:07
Originally by: Amarria Black
Currently reading the collected Haruhi Suzumiya series from that link you provided, DS. Curse you and your finding my one weakness: an insatiable urge to consume literature.
First impression: She's Lain at the beginning of SEL. It's her world, she just doesn't know it yet.
Actually, I came up with a horrifying realization the other day.
HARUHI IS LAIN.
That's my weakness also, by the way; if you can find me good books, I will mysteriously disappear from the interwebs until I have finished those books. 
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
You assume a benevolent god. No particular reason a god can't be a jerk.
This concept is one that has always made good novels, IMO. The concept that God is not necessary here for our benefit, but rather for her own amusement (or perhaps another reason) throws everything on its head and results in lots of good books.
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Sister Impotentata
Elite Angels Of Death
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Posted - 2008.01.13 15:10:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Amarria Black
Originally by: Dark Shikari
... the luck of Teela Brown (except more extreme) ...
Since this is an epic nerdgasm thread: I thought Teela Brown wasn't the luckiest person alive, as such would keep her the hell away from the Ringworld in the first place. She was just far more "lucky" genetically than your average human. My search fu is failing at the moment, but I swear that there was another character who made her look like an amateur. It may have been another Known Space character, or I may be completely and totally insane.
Have you read the latest Ringworld? Without giving out spoilers if you haven't, I invite you to remember that the Ringworld will be immune to the effects of the core explosion. In 30,000 years it will be the only safe place for a human in the galaxy.
-----
TANSTAAFL
Originally by: Professor Falken
What you see here on these screens is a fantasy, a computer-enhanced hallucination! Those blips are not real missiles, they're phantoms!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.01.13 15:13:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Then I would argue if she is God trying to experience life on earth she has arranged things wrongly. If she makes a reality where she cannot be killed then she cannot truly experience the life she is supposedly after (you're missing a fundamental component of life if you have no worries of death which every other living thing faces).
Yes, but doesn't "not being aware you are a god" kind of automatically solve this problem ? 
1|2|3|4|5. |
Dark Shikari
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 15:58:00 -
[28]
Also, on the topic of Haruhi and Lain...
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Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.13 16:12:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Also, on the topic of Haruhi and Lain...
~Nyron
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan
But poor victimized Ulf...I weep lavender scented tears for you.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.01.13 16:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Then I would argue if she is God trying to experience life on earth she has arranged things wrongly. If she makes a reality where she cannot be killed then she cannot truly experience the life she is supposedly after (you're missing a fundamental component of life if you have no worries of death which every other living thing faces).
Yes, but doesn't "not being aware you are a god" kind of automatically solve this problem ?
I do not think so.
If she was a god then she had an existence prior to coming to earth. At that time she would have pondered how she wanted to go about it. Erasing her knowledge of her own divinity makes sense so she could "experience" life. Making it so she is indestructible by virtue of bending reality to her will rather undoes all that though. She is not experiencing life as the rest of us do with all it entails.
It'd be like you wanting to experience playing chess but as you played you rewrote the rules as you went to ensure you won. At the end you cannot say you really played chess (even if you were unaware of your rewriting of the rules).
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