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Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 15:48:00 - [1] Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening everyone from whichever end of the globe you come from. I'm writing this post in regards to a trend in Eve that has been going on for quite awhile but seems to be picking up more pace - that being the repeated exploit of using Rookie ships and clones in the use of not only harrassing players but to incur no losses of ISK for doing any number of activities, some of those being: - Can flipping/stealing from Miners - 0.0 Loot theft - Low Security loot theft - General harrassment of corps using mains to war dec and keeping rookie characters in the corp to prolong it and using them to harrass industrial characters. These are but a few examples and I'm sure many of you can list other countless examples of where you may have seen or experienced it first hand where someone has used a Rookie ship like a Reaper, Velator, Ibis or Impairor to cause you a general headache. I've experienced can flipping a few times and thieves just trying to gank someone minding their own business trying to enjoy the game in peace. What I find angering however is that if I make a mistake, to play devils advocate - the aggroing party/ies will not suffer a loss of ISK, rookie ships get replaced for nothing and what does it matter if they get podded also ? they can still fly one. What I ask is and I have filed petitions and so have a lot of friends of mine in game, if you feel the same way like something needs to be done then please, file a petition - while it may not initially be quickfixed at least it gives the GM's some basis to work from. At least they can recognise that it is an abuse of the game mechanics, a clever loophole nonetheless but it is still exploiting the mechanics of the game. Specifically the idea of earning ISK to progress, get a better ship, skill and so on and it makes you want to play the game [ or it does for me ] because I always want to move on, get the next shiny thing so to speak. If people can abuse trial accounts and rookie ships/characters just to anger someone all the time then shouldn't something be done about it or have it at least discussed ? Im not saying ban them all together - if someone wishes to try and cause grief/griefing to others surely they should be risking their own ISK ? Whether its their main or alt char is immaterial. Why should they lose nothing and try to cost someone a lot of money potentially ? Please feel free to discuss it on this thread either way. It is a discussion and opinions are important from all angles however please do not turn this thread into a Flaming match. It defeats the point of the exercise in this case. NB : 1- For anyone wanting to say '' Oh but you are posting on an Alt '' it does not matter if I am or not - the issue here is raised in the thread so please do not try to hijack the thread in order to start a flaming War. It's a discussion. 2- I am not saying loot theft or ore theft should be banned either - merely that the player/s in question should lose some form of ISK in the process if it goes wrong for them, not just lose a Rookie ship and a pod for nothing. I look forward to your posts and/or petitions if you feel the same way. Thank you.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.01.15 15:53:00 - [2] I have it on good authority that alts improve every aspect of Eve. In fact tranquility would cease functioning at all if we didn't have them. And by good authority I mean every fanboi who will troll with 100% guaranteed Mitnal immunity anybody who suggests that alts in fact, suck. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse. 2) Idiot. Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz.
Melor Rend	Posted - 2008.01.15 15:54:00 - [3] Edited by: Melor Rend on 15/01/2008 15:57:20 Edited by: Melor Rend on 15/01/2008 15:53:56 Quote: I've experienced can flipping a few times and thieves just trying to gank someone minding their own business trying to enjoy the game in peace. While I agree that this is a very cheap trick that I personally also find very lame, EVE is not a game where you can simply say "Uhh no I just wanna level up [my nightelf] in peace" (SCNR @ the nightelf). It's a harsh world where you'll be killed if anyone can gain anything from it so if the game were changed the way you ask, then the game would stop being EVE and start becomming random-MMORPG-number 231345234. Edit: Quote: Why should they lose nothing and try to cost someone a lot of money potentially ? It's called PvP successfully and is great fun.
MadDoc Brown	Posted - 2008.01.15 15:54:00 - [4] Edited by: MadDoc Brown on 15/01/2008 15:54:54 Originally by: Fifth Horseman I have it on good authority that alts improve every aspect of Eve. In fact tranquility would cease functioning at all if we didn't have them. And by good authority I mean every fanboi who will troll with 100% guaranteed Mitnal immunity anybody who suggests that alts in fact, suck. You're a nasty one eh..?
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 15:56:00 - [5] I can see your point Melor Rend, however I am not saying loot theft / ore theft should stop - Only that if people want to do theft and the like they should be risking something in the process like the majority of players in Eve. Why shoulder a Miner or PvPer or anyone for that matter risk losing ISK when a rookie ship can do anything without a care in the world, lose the ship and get podded and not have 1 ISK lost. It just seems totally unfair.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.01.15 15:56:00 - [6] Originally by: MadDoc Brown Edited by: MadDoc Brown on 15/01/2008 15:54:54 Originally by: Fifth Horseman I have it on good authority that alts improve every aspect of Eve. In fact tranquility would cease functioning at all if we didn't have them. And by good authority I mean every fanboi who will troll with 100% guaranteed Mitnal immunity anybody who suggests that alts in fact, suck. You're a nasty one eh..? 60 seconds. Swift even for a trolling fanboi. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse. 2) Idiot. Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz.
ApaKaka Lone Starr Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.15 15:57:00 - [7] What can a noobship kill, except another noobship? Also, you'd need to fit modules, which cost money, to actually 'upgrade' your noobship to hold a miner in place (warp disruptor, guns etc). Kill him, and he loses that money. I can't for my life see this as a problem?
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.01.15 15:59:00 - [8] I hereby suggest that all rookie ships now cost 20 billion ISK. Problem solved, right? Right?
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:01:00 - [9] Nicho you could reply with something a little more positive rather than sarcastic nonchalant comments. Its a discussion, I am only raising some points which I think are valid, if you want to contest that fine but as I said in the first post please do not turn this into a flame war and hijack the thread.
Thornat	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:02:00 - [10] While your friends might be showing you support I doubt you'll find much from the general population. Already being discussed in a number of forums but Can Flipping/Stealing from Miners while a pretty lame way to make a living in Eve, is neither harrasment, griefing or petitionable. There are a number of counters to such things and plenty of legitimate reasons to do it. You'll find that many people with harrass miners to get them to stop mining in a particular field they have 'claimed', while others are hired mercanaries paid for by a corp to harras people for a week so that this particular corp can get the most out of a system. Certainly there are just those that do it for profit (ore=isk) and its all perfectly legitimate (albeit lame in my opinion). 0.0 Loot Theft is not only not griefing its an extremely profitable way for a newbie to make ISK. Anchor a secured container in a system, then fly around in a rookie ship collecting loot worth 50,000% more then the risk involved. I strongly suggest that newbies take up this practice as it teaches you a lot about 0.0 (something everyone should be aspiring to in my opinion) and it harasses experianced players who are constantly whining on the boards that not enough people go into low and null sec. Low Security Theft is no different then any other kind of theft. Theft as a whole is neither griefing or petionable, its a part of the game and many players make it their business, in fact there are entire corps and alliances dedicate to theft and piracy exactly as CCP intends this game to be by design. War Dec harrasment is a bit of a different story as their are currently a number of exploits, but CCP has already told us that this is something on the chopping block for them. For the most part however I can't really support you as in my opinion while the list that you have provided is the result of some of the most vile players in the game, they are all legitimate ways to play the game and have plenty of ways they can be countered. If there is one thing I would support is the complete elimination of alt characters. 1 Account 1 Character. While this wouldn't solve the problem completetly, most people who are paying for an account are trainning skills, hence plugging in their clones and would generaly not use their accounts for the list you mentioned as this would be a waste of real money. The elimination of alts however would eliminate a considerable amount of what I would consider lame tactics and would create a whole to new proffession of character, the spy/scout.
Thornat	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:05:00 - [11] Originally by: ApaKaka What can a noobship kill, except another noobship? Also, you'd need to fit modules, which cost money, to actually 'upgrade' your noobship to hold a miner in place (warp disruptor, guns etc). Kill him, and he loses that money. I can't for my life see this as a problem? Good point. I really don't see how a noobie ship is anything to worry about, they aren't going to be able to break a miners or a haulers tank and they certainly are no threat to any kind of fighting ship. Certainly he might have backup waiting to jump in but that is not the sign of a griefer but a trap and traps are a very intrical and fun part of tactics in Eve.
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:05:00 - [12] To Apakaka - Rookie ships have been used as an exploit in the past during a War between 2 0.0 Alliances, I wont name who used them and who against however. Alliance X spammed rookie ships at Alliance Y relentlessly to drain the POS guns of their ammunition. 1 such use of an exploit - comparable sure but not the same circumstance I agree, it just highlights how a free commodity in the game can be used as a loophole. And I'm sure some people may know who Im referring to and they did get punished for it. Its just an example.
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:05:00 - [13] Edited by: Nicho Void on 15/01/2008 16:05:50 Originally by: Arkady Roskov Nicho you could reply with something a little more positive rather than sarcastic nonchalant comments. Its a discussion, I am only raising some points which I think are valid, if you want to contest that fine but as I said in the first post please do not turn this into a flame war and hijack the thread. I'll clarify the meaning of my post, since understanding brevity is not your strong point: In order to make these people lose "something of value", CCP would have to increase the price of the ship. In doing so, you actually end up hurting the noobs you are so keen to protect. They're noobships for Jove's sake. Man up and defend yourself, or don't, and continue to die.
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:12:00 - [14] To Nicho, There could be any number of measures implemented for example - respawns of ships be delayed the more you get destroyed [ ie if you use them as suicide ships, you'll have to wait a lot ] I did not say I had died to them however I have seen people get swarmed by a group of rookie ships like a group of angry wasps around a guys head. While the analogy is funny in a macabre way it illustrates the point of how is that fair exactly ? My point here is to not punish genuine new people, more to implement a method of limiting people creating Alt/Trial accounts purely try to harrass/deprive people of their playing experience by exploiting a no ISK loss approach. Thank you all either way for your comments thus far.
Tinka Toy	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:14:00 - [15] Originally by: Arkady Roskov Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening everyone from whichever end of the globe you come from. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! SOMEONE CALL THE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHBULANCE Thank you. Fixed this for you.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Thornat Originally by: ApaKaka What can a noobship kill, except another noobship? Good point. I really don't see how a noobie ship is anything to worry about, they aren't going to be able to break a miners or a haulers tank and they certainly are no threat to any kind of fighting ship. Certainly he might have backup waiting to jump in but that is not the sign of a griefer but a trap and traps are a very intrical and fun part of tactics in Eve. Mains using Velators fitted with T2 guns, scram, and T2 repper, with 2xHobGobII aren't the issue the OP is looking for. And for your own knowledge, they can kill plenty an unsuspecting miner/hauler/ratter. Good for anything that has poor drone skill, cruiser and below. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse. 2) Idiot. Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz.
Bodwad Gallente British Federation Sleepless Knights Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:16:00 - [17] I still dont understand how people can transfer from another persons can into their own with a tiny ship. Limit the ammount that can be transfered at any time and can flipping will still be possible but without miners losing everything. A transfer rates type of system where the rate of transfer depends on the ship itself would be more feasable.
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Arkady Roskov To Nicho, There could be any number of measures implemented for example - respawns of ships be delayed the more you get destroyed [ ie if you use them as suicide ships, you'll have to wait a lot ] An interesting idea, but not practical. Say for instance you are on the defensive side. A pirate pops your barge and you want to hop in your PvP ship for some retaliation, but have to wait. In Eve, seconds matter when hunting. Originally by: Arkady Roskov I did not say I had died to them however I have seen people get swarmed by a group of rookie ships like a group of angry wasps around a guys head. While the analogy is funny in a macabre way it illustrates the point of how is that fair exactly ? Arkady, you're going to learn that complaining/whining on the forums will get you no where. Instead, you should ask how to protect yourself against such an attack. Someone would inform you that smartbombs are used for swatting flies. Originally by: Arkady Roskov My point here is to not punish genuine new people, more to implement a method of limiting people creating Alt/Trial accounts purely try to harrass/deprive people of their playing experience by exploiting a no ISK loss approach. The noobships are so weak that they literally should not be able to inflict damage on anyone but a noobship, numbers or not. I suggest anyone having this problem look into a PvP course (Eve Uni).
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:19:00 - [19] To Bodwad, Thats quite a valid point and idea, it also means in the process a genuine Rookie is not penalised, however those that use a Main and an Alt character to do more nefarious and vindictive things is limited. Thanks for your addition.
Thornat	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Fifth Horseman Originally by: Thornat Originally by: ApaKaka What can a noobship kill, except another noobship? Good point. I really don't see how a noobie ship is anything to worry about, they aren't going to be able to break a miners or a haulers tank and they certainly are no threat to any kind of fighting ship. Certainly he might have backup waiting to jump in but that is not the sign of a griefer but a trap and traps are a very intrical and fun part of tactics in Eve. Mains using Velators fitted with T2 guns, scram, and T2 repper, with 2xHobGobII aren't the issue the OP is looking for. And for your own knowledge, they can kill plenty an unsuspecting miner/hauler/ratter. Good for anything that has poor drone skill, cruiser and below. Perhaps, but then again if you put T2 Guns, Reppers and Drones on a ship, its not longer 0 ISK risk right? He's saying that for 0 ISK you can be a threat to a mining operation with everything to gain and nothing to loose and thats just not true. Yes you can harass people, but your not likely to get much out of it in a rookie ship and if you do add some good mods on it you are risking a hell of a lot on a rookie ship which is 1 shot pop for just about anything in the game.
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:21:00 - [21] To Nicho, Valid points thank you. I'll have to brush up on how to defend better against Rookie ship swarms lol.

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:25:00 - [22] This is currently not considered an exploit though. Wrangler Community Manager CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:27:00 - [23] I understand Wrangler, but the discussion is that of - Is it an exploit ? In one circumstance it is but in another it is not. Im not confirming or saying it is definetely its just an open discussion. Sorry for the vagueness in the title
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Arkady Roskov I understand Wrangler, but the discussion is that of - Is it an exploit ? In one circumstance it is but in another it is not. Im not confirming or saying it is definetely its just an open discussion. Sorry for the vagueness in the title The Devs (as evidenced by Wrangler's response) have said multiple times this is INTENDED game mechanics. No exploit in any situation. Perhaps you should read up on the definition of exploit; The use of game mechanics in a way not intended. Notice the intended part... Most of the problems you have listed are only possible because players don't understand the game mechanics or fail to take the correct steps to keep themselves safe. Just like you don't wander through town counting your wad of 100 dollar bills, you don't carry a lot of money in fragile ships. Or when someone grabs your boom-box at the park and runs (can flipping), you don't chase them down the darj ally unless you WANT to get into a gun/knife/baseball bat fight. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:36:00 - [25] Nicho, there is something that has been missed though. By using Rookie ships people have the ability to grief others quite a lot for non profit and risk losing nothing, purely to disrupt a players game as much as possible. Is this considered the norm/acceptable within Eve ? Surely it is a form of harrassment and petitionable because even if they get killed, repeatedly they just respawn immediately and go back to hassling the other players ? Again, its just food for thought. Would like to hear your comments
Karash Amerius Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:37:00 - [26] This thread = lol "Fighting Broke" - An Ex-Merc Blog

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Arkady Roskov I understand Wrangler, but the discussion is that of - Is it an exploit ? In one circumstance it is but in another it is not. Im not confirming or saying it is definetely its just an open discussion. Sorry for the vagueness in the title Well, the only problem there is that an exploit is only an exploit when we say it is, since an exploit is against the rules. You can always discuss if you think it should be considered an exploit of course, but it's rather confusing for people if there are suddenly two definitions of an exploit. Wrangler Community Manager CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

Westly Synpa GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:45:00 - [28] suiciding rookies ships into an enemy untill the run out of ammo's is also a valid tactic.
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:46:00 - [29] Wrangler, I see your point thanks. However as I asked a couple of posts back - for the sole purporse of hassling someone in the game using trial accounts repeatedly with the no ISK loss process, isn't that unfair on more seasoned players ? Regardless of how many times you could shoot someone they just keep coming back etc ? And for the Band of Brothers member - I am sure it was your Alliance that complained about another Alliance swarming your POS's with Rookie ships, so if this thread is '' lol '' Then surely what happened to you illustrates how it can be exploited.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:53:00 - [30] Originally by: Arkady Roskov And for the Band of Brothers member - I am sure it was your Alliance that complained about another Alliance swarming your POS's with Rookie ships, so if this thread is '' lol '' Then surely what happened to you illustrates how it can be '' utilised '' Oh oh. Wrong thoughts. I'll be hiding now before Mitnal shows up to tow the company line. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse. 2) Idiot. Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz.
Arling Fesk	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:54:00 - [31] What about making newbie ships incapable of illegal acts? That would still allow all of the above to be done for very little money, but remove the ZERO cost option.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:57:00 - [32] IF they show up, move to another belt. If they show up again, move again. When they show up the third time, move systems. If they show up again, petition for harassment. That works too, depending on what GM you pull. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:58:00 - [33] Thanks for the info Anaalys, I'll definetely keep that in mind in future thank you. For the other idea of making Rookie ships incapable of illegal acts, its a good idea but the mechanics of it would be hard to implement for CCP I Guess, but its still an idea to bounce around, thats the point of this thread so thank you :D
Garat Mant Minmatar Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:59:00 - [34] Please reference This Thread -- CEO, Moons Of Pluto industrial corporation. Recruiting mature players!
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:01:00 - [35] I saw that thread the other day also,thank you for the link. But it raises the question is that legitimate or is it griefing ? to refer back to my earlier question in this thread. There just seems to be a lot of grey area regarding this entire issue ie if in that case if the person is making no ISK then is it griefing ?
Westly Synpa GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:03:00 - [36] Originally by: Primnproper If your podding them theres still an isk loss, the price of a new clone.... well you obviously make your pilot fit into an alpha clone.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:15:00 - [37] Originally by: Westly Synpa Originally by: Primnproper If your podding them theres still an isk loss, the price of a new clone.... well you obviously make your pilot fit into an alpha clone. WHich pretty much means that the whole point is mute... Beginning characters, in n00b ships, even with standard (non-civilian) equipment are still pitifully weak. Max dps from one would be in the order of around 10 dps with no tanking ability? A decently fitted tier 3 cruiser should be able to hold against 20-25 of them while it one-volleys enough to get away. T1 barges might be in some danger, but they don't belong unescorted in lowsec/0.0 anyways and as long as they don't re-flip the can (who jet can mines anymore as it is) they can't be attacked in High Sec since 100 n00b ships can't put out enough DPS to drop even a retriever before Concord vaporizes all of them. The only "problem" with them is alts using them to scout, which isn't a problem since they are slower and easier to pop than a shuttle and ALWAYS killed when seen in LowSec or 0.0 I don't see the point of the gripe, it doesn't meet game mechanics in a useable way and seems more hypothetical.... Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:24:00 - [38] Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 15/01/2008 17:26:50 this thread smells like a United whine. "can flipping/stealing from miners" - what exactly can a noob alt accomplish against a miner that a main on a better/more powerful ship wouldn't be able to? "0.0/low sec theft" - kill the alt. afterall, if it's an alt it can't do much, right? "General harrassment of corps using mains to war dec and keeping rookie characters in the corp to prolong it and using them to harrass industrial characters." - what? how is a war being prolonged if rookies are in it? how are industrial characters being harassed? seriously, what are you even talking about here? is this about "The United" being pwn'd by noobs lately? is this because gatecampers are being camped themselves? are lil bears hawassing you back?
Tammarr Trident RMBK Rough Necks	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:27:00 - [39] hehe, the moment I read the op I tought the very same thing. A 'the united' whine. Camping in rancer going well? ^^ Theres a thread in C&P about it a quick rundown is: A player got poped by pirate lowsec gatecamp... and decided to use his ibis to loot the wrecks of industrials etc the pirates shoot down from that point on. Going to such lengths that the pirates started camping his ibis in station so he would leave. Dont we all just love pirates whining about someone stealing from wrecks? ^^ Nerfing carriers and most everything nice for a t2 freighter that should be tier 2 isnt balancing ccp :(
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:28:00 - [40] Originally by: Primnproper If your podding them theres still an isk loss, the price of a new clone.... I see you never tried podding a can flipper or a loot thief. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Cygnus Scott Caldari Ministry of Funny Walks	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:35:00 - [41] Originally by: Arkady Roskov Edited by: Arkady Roskov on 15/01/2008 16:48:16 Wrangler, I see your point thanks. However as I asked a couple of posts back - for the sole purporse of hassling someone in the game using trial accounts repeatedly with the no ISK loss process, isn't that unfair on more seasoned players ? Regardless of how many times you could shoot someone they just keep coming back etc ? And for the Band of Brothers member - I am sure it was your Alliance that complained about another Alliance swarming your POS's with Rookie ships, so if this thread is '' lol '' Then surely what happened to you illustrates how it can be '' utilised '' The longer you go on the more this sounds like a whine post to me. Its not an exploit. With 800k SP and a n00bship most pilots aren't a threat to any player with half a brain. If you outfit a noobship with T2 stuff or have a veteran pilot fly it your 0ISK and 0 risk premise dies since A) Tech II costs money B) you pod them they lose implants(if they have them) and the clone. Now if they should forget to buy a new clone...well you've hurt them in the worst way I can imagine. Can you use freshly minted alts to swarm something? Sure, but there are ways to deal with that, except for the lag it will generate of course.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:43:00 - [42] Battlebarges (or mine in a domi ) --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:46:00 - [43] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Primnproper If your podding them theres still an isk loss, the price of a new clone.... I see you never tried podding a can flipper or a loot thief. if you're having problems podding a noob alt on a noob/starter frig i dont know what to tell ya. "omg starter frigs are overpowered!!"
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:51:00 - [44] Edited by: Arkady Roskov on 15/01/2008 17:51:08 As usual a perfectly legitimate thread is hijacked by a few wanting to flame bait, I am not going to lower myself to your level. Still the question remains about griefing and it hasn't been answered, rather more people just wanting to throw accusations around about alts and the like because I guess, its easier to be tough behind a PC than actually put forward some legitimate, reasonable comments. And FYI I am a Miner, not a Pirate like those in the united so it goes to show what throwing assumptions around does. My main concern was those who do can flipping the other issues raised were examples of how to clarify if it is an exploit, if not is it griefing as I asked and others clarified that [ ie if they follow you through several belts and systems ] Either way, since the discussion is now hijacked by trolls and got enough information from a few decent people [ Thank you, you know who you are ] I'll let sleeping dogs be. Thank you to those who actually discussed the topic.
Ursula LeGuinn Versus Gloria Omnis	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:55:00 - [45] Who cares whether people use rookie ships for harassment or not? You can buy a tier 1 frigate for 35,000 ISK (or buy the BPOs for them and make them yourself). I've only been playing this game for a month, and I wipe my arse with 35,000 ISK. In fact, stopping to pick up 35,000 ISK on my way to a mission would COST me money. And isn't the basic uninsured insurance payout 90,000 ISK? Which would easily cover the cost of a T1 frigate bought from the market and fitted with basic modules? I fail to see any redeeming quality in this entire thread.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:57:00 - [46] sucks but yeah, nothing you can do about it. ccp will jump in 5 seconds and declare using alliances to avoid wars is an exploit but you won't hear anything from them on this i'm afraid. they are easy to avoid, though. the only way you'd really be in danger is if you are actively jet-canning your ore with no one nearby to scoop it up. alts are the best but get other people to help if not. 1x barge, 1x hauler (web/scramb/tank) and a command ship aligned nearby but off-grid. as soon as they flip the can, warp in the command ship and have the hauler web/scramb. (make sure everyone is in same corp) can put something else in place of command ship but CS can pump bonus when there is no threat. I <3 empire.. usually.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:59:00 - [47] Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 15/01/2008 18:01:16 Originally by: Arkady Roskov Edited by: Arkady Roskov on 15/01/2008 17:51:08 As usual a perfectly legitimate thread is hijacked by a few wanting to flame bait, I am not going to lower myself to your level. Still the question remains about griefing and it hasn't been answered, rather more people just wanting to throw accusations around about alts and the like because I guess, its easier to be tough behind a PC than actually put forward some legitimate, reasonable comments. And FYI I am a Miner, not a Pirate like those in the united so it goes to show what throwing assumptions around does. My main concern was those who do can flipping the other issues raised were examples of how to clarify if it is an exploit, if not is it griefing as I asked and others clarified that [ ie if they follow you through several belts and systems ] Either way, since the discussion is now hijacked by trolls and got enough information from a few decent people [ Thank you, you know who you are ] I'll let sleeping dogs be. Thank you to those who actually discussed the topic. reread my post. ill rephrase: suppose alts dissappeared as of today. how would you fend off someone flipping your can today? how would attacking an older player be any easier than fighting a noob on a rookie ship? you still havent answered my question. why arent you using drones or a weapon? it doesnt matter if its an alt or older player they still aggress the same. if its a rookie on a rookie ship they should be EASIER to kill. are you sure this is about mining?
Susan Acid	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:01:00 - [48] It's a Rookie ship ffs.It does pathetic damage,has no tank and is being flown by a Character with basic SP.What threat does it pose? If someone is stupid enough to be jetcan mining they have no cause to complain if someone steals it.If it's flipped and they are angry or stupid enough to attack the Noob ship and get themselves Concorded then it's their own fault. 0.0 loot theft in a Velator is a problem for who exactly?. Lo sec loot theft will flag them.So shoot them.It's the same for everybody. Harrasment of Corps?Well,they are just planting Spies tbh. Did you ever think that there may be genuine Newbs out there who like to flip cans/fly to 0.0 to steal loot? You make it sound like this is a huge problem and it isn't. Personally I think you are either a member of the campers crying in C & P or someone trying to make them look more stupid than they do in the other thread.
Arkady Roskov	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:09:00 - [49] It is about mining and sure, I get quite annoyed at people constantly trying to steal and getting me flagged in a rookie ship then I get shot at because they turn out to be bait, then being followed around after. Is that a bad thing to be annoyed ? However I am in a no win situation when I say that because some here will say stop whining, when I raise a question I get accusations of being an alt for some Pirate corp. If you truly believe that then that is your choice like I could believe you are alts for somebody else ? a rival of theirs or maybe even in that corp ? who knows. All I asked is what qualifies as an exploit and if it is not an exploit, is it griefing. Again, thank you to those who gave information, and to those who wished to try and cause an argument, good luck in other threads with other people.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:11:00 - [50] This is what corps are for, have friends that can step in and help. That's your best option. --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Tinka Toy	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Arkady Roskov Edited by: Arkady Roskov on 15/01/2008 17:51:08 Thank you to those who actually discussed the topic. What is there to discuss? Eve is not a cookie cutter MMOG with massive EULA guidelines restricting player actions. Eve is a sandbox, and while some people will be happy sitting in the corner making sandcastles, others are just as happy coming up and throwing sand in your face. You personally dislike the people throwing sand in you face, and instead of finding a way to fight back you come here and cry about it trying to convince the devs to make throwing sand in your face an exploit. Go to back to wow, or eq or some other MMOG where you have GMs holding your hand.
Rhaegor Stormborn Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:15:00 - [52] Originally by: CCP Wrangler This is currently not considered an exploit though. Maybe you should reconsider. Rhaegor Stormborn Fleet Admiral - The Volition Cult
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:27:00 - [53] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: CCP Wrangler This is currently not considered an exploit though. Maybe you should reconsider. There are many perfectly usable counters to this. Double baiting is one, if people "grief" you this way in a system (which is likely full anyway) get in your corp mates aligned to you in a gang. As soon as you take the bait and they warp in, your friends warp in and the battle starts propper. --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:27:00 - [54] Originally by: Arkady Roskov It is about mining and sure, I get quite annoyed at people constantly trying to steal and getting me flagged in a rookie ship then I get shot at because they turn out to be bait, then being followed around after. Is that a bad thing to be annoyed ? However I am in a no win situation when I say that because some here will say stop whining, when I raise a question I get accusations of being an alt for some Pirate corp. If you truly believe that then that is your choice like I could believe you are alts for somebody else ? a rival of theirs or maybe even in that corp ? who knows. All I asked is what qualifies as an exploit and if it is not an exploit, is it griefing. Again, thank you to those who gave information, and to those who wished to try and cause an argument, good luck in other threads with other people. see, its what you're saying that leads me to believe either you're trolling or you just dont know how the game mechanics work. you're saying that rookie alt is serving as bait. lets see if i have this right: you're mining rookie flips your can you shoot at rookie the rookie's corp mates shoot at you and follow you around? did i get it right?
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:30:00 - [55] No, the problem lies in the fact that a noob ship can pop jetcans at no loss of isk. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:36:00 - [56] Originally by: Pwett No, the problem lies in the fact that a noob ship can pop jetcans at no loss of isk. Jetcans are not meant for mining, so technically CCP can argue use other cans. --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Sleazy P	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:37:00 - [57] 1) Don't jetcan mine. Use achored secure cans with a decent password. Then no one can flip your mining can. 2) If they are stealing your NPC loot remember it's not your loot until it's in your ships hold. Until that point its anyones to pick up. There are no sparklies indicating it's your mob to loot like other games. Quote: because I always want to move on, get the next shiny thing so to speak Forget this notion in Eve. it's not how the game works and it's what makes Eve better than every other MMO out there.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:38:00 - [58] Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 15/01/2008 18:40:36 Originally by: Pwett No, the problem lies in the fact that a noob ship can pop jetcans at no loss of isk. then perhaps use secure cans? btw tier 1 frigs can just as easily pop them as well. and they cost peanuts. and i still dont see how whos flying them makes a difference since you cant pod in secure space anyway (unless at war). how would getting rid of rookie alts help here without breaking other game mechanics?
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:40:00 - [59] Edited by: Del Narveux on 15/01/2008 18:41:12 I see the OP's point, it is a bit too risk free to flip a miners can (though Ive gotten reports that you can be podded now...is this true?). The can-flagging system definitely has some serious problems, but its still better than the old system where cans got randomly stolen/destroyed with no means of retaliation. Theres a really simple solution to all this, not sure why it hasnt been implemented but Ill repost it here since CCP is apparently watching (wassup wrangler). Make a new type of secure can that when anchored in space, can hold something like 15km3 of ore but only ore and cant hold anything when not in space (should only take up like 1000m3 so theyre easy to deploy). Boom, problem solved. Anchorable, secure container that unlike normal secures has enough capacity to make it a worthwhile alternative to jetcan mining and, by extension, other means of making money like missions and trade. edit: if they should still be vulnerable to flippers for balance or whatever, make them hackable but hacking flags you...so you cant just flip and run, gotta stick around for a bit and thus be yourself vulnerable to counterattack _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:52:00 - [60] Originally by: Arctur Ceti [ btw tier 1 frigs can just as easily pop them as well. and they cost peanuts. and i still dont see how whos flying them makes a difference since you cant pod in secure space anyway (unless at war). how would getting rid of rookie alts help here without breaking other game mechanics? #1. Can't anchor anything in 0.8+ and as long as there's roids, there's gonna be mining. #2. Peanuts > free and I'm talking about rookie ships, I could care less who flies them. Anchorable cans, other than using them as a coupling arrays are useless. Heck, I can fill up a giant secure with one cycle from two lasers, so even as a coupling array, they are useless. Not to mention, all this does is promote can spam. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:00:00 - [61] Originally by: Pwett Originally by: Arctur Ceti [ btw tier 1 frigs can just as easily pop them as well. and they cost peanuts. and i still dont see how whos flying them makes a difference since you cant pod in secure space anyway (unless at war). how would getting rid of rookie alts help here without breaking other game mechanics? #1. Can't anchor anything in 0.8+ and as long as there's roids, there's gonna be mining. #2. Peanuts > free and I'm talking about rookie ships, I could care less who flies them. Anchorable cans, other than using them as a coupling arrays are useless. Heck, I can fill up a giant secure with one cycle from two lasers, so even as a coupling array, they are useless. Not to mention, all this does is promote can spam. Or have another char in a hauler. --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:01:00 - [62] How else does one interpret using a can as a coupling array other than when you use it as a buffer between miner and hauler? _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Westly Synpa GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:30:00 - [63] also the guy greifing you is doing it wrong. They could steal your stuff and you could only shot the newbie ship.
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:37:00 - [64] Originally by: Pwett Anchorable cans, other than using them as a coupling arrays are useless. Heck, I can fill up a giant secure with one cycle from two lasers, so even as a coupling array, they are useless. Not to mention, all this does is promote can spam. But thats whats so awesome about the thing I posted. 15k isnt enough to totally beat jetcan mining, but it is enough that a barge or other good mining ship wont insta-fill it. And the hackability even leaves can-flipping in the game while removing the problem of those who do it in a shuttle or ibis. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:45:00 - [65] try fliping one of my corps can. huggin uncloaking off the port bow! ****! BOOM HULLSHOT! but yeah noob ships and alts really make this to risk free. oh boy killing alts in noob ships for sec stat hits. mastered by Soulita bigger rez
Downtym Amarr Middleton and Mercer LLP The Omni Federation	Posted - 2008.01.15 20:36:00 - [66] Originally by: Melor Rend While I agree that this is a very cheap trick that I personally also find very lame, EVE is not a game where you can simply say "Uhh no I just wanna level up [my nightelf] in peace" (SCNR @ the nightelf). EVE is the only game where you can level up your nightelf in peace. You log on, set a skill to learn and then log off. If you need to make money, you can buy GTC's and resell them for ISK. Wham, bam, a character with as little /played and exposure as possible and as much money as you can afford to dump into its account.
Balsak Minmatar eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.15 20:39:00 - [67] So CCP has made a game that people are willing to spend real money on the monthly fee and buying in game money and not actually play ? Wow, I always knew Eve was a good game but I didn't realize it was this amazing.
Khavid Kharver	Posted - 2008.01.15 20:59:00 - [68] Originally by: Arkady Roskov I saw that thread the other day also,thank you for the link. But it raises the question is that legitimate or is it griefing ? to refer back to my earlier question in this thread. There just seems to be a lot of grey area regarding this entire issue ie if in that case if the person is making no ISK then is it griefing ? Well, actually it doesn't raise that question at all. IDispatch explicitly STATES that he is doing it (or rather continuing to do it) because it generates lots of cash for him. It also provides him with much amusement, but that is more from the smack talk of United. And he also gets off on the suspense of whether or not THIS time he will get away. That's not greifing. Anymore then the gate campers he does this against are greifing.
Downtym Amarr Middleton and Mercer LLP The Omni Federation	Posted - 2008.01.15 21:08:00 - [69] Originally by: Arctur Ceti Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 15/01/2008 17:26:50 this thread smells like a United whine. "can flipping/stealing from miners" - what exactly can a noob alt accomplish against a miner that a main on a better/more powerful ship wouldn't be able to? Assume you have 2 accounts: Main and Alt. You want to do some can flipping and you want to minimize risk to your Main's ship. What do you do? You use the Alt account to create a new character. Then, you fleet your Main and your Alt character. You take the Alt out and he can flips. Now, your Main can come in and take the cargo without risk of attack - the owner of the can will be aggress'd against the Alt, not the Main even though they're fleeted. Even if the target of your flip kills your Alt's ship he's only managed to kill a Rookie ship, you fly the Alt back to a station and he gets a free ship from the Insurance company. Even better would be if the target of the can flip decided to "steal back" the cargo you flipped. Then you fly your Main in with his gold-plated ship of doom and are able to get the first shot against the flip target. The best thing is that NO ONE CAN HELP HIM against you. The target will be aggress'd against everyone in your Fleet (Your alt and your main) while your crappy alt is aggress'd against everyone in his Fleet. So even if shooting starts, no one can jump in to help him without Concord intervening. And right there you have "How to Can Flip with almost 0 Risk of Loss". Quote: "0.0/low sec theft" - kill the alt. afterall, if it's an alt it can't do much, right? Killing the alt costs the player nothing. His skills are under 900k, so he appears back in the medical station, gets a free ship, and can come back out for a second try. Say he flies up to a wreck with some awesome loot and manages to snag it before you can warp scram/kill him. He gets a free X million isk. And if you do kill him? He loses 0 isk. Risk here? A lot of possible gain versus no loss at all. Quote: "General harrassment of corps using mains to war dec and keeping rookie characters in the corp to prolong it and using them to harrass industrial characters." - what? how is a war being prolonged if rookies are in it? how are industrial characters being harassed? seriously, what are you even talking about here? Say you have 2 accounts, once again. You make a character on your Alt account that makes a corporation (Cheap and easy). That character uses his corp to war dec another corporation (Cheap if they're not in an alliance. Affordable unless they're in a massive alliance). You can "Hire" your main (And others!) to take shots at the target corporation. Heck, you could even advertise the service: Corporation Name: Perma Dec against Awesome Miner Corporation, Inc. Description: Join this corporation if you want to get free war targets that can't fight back! Leave the corporation whenever you want! Taking donations to keep the war dec on forever! Tax is set at 5%! Tax: 5% People can join and leave the corporation at their leisure giving them the ability to grief Awesome Miner Corporation, Inc. whenever they want. And if Perma Dec gets war dec'd by a mercenary group? Everyone can just up and leave for their old corporation until the mercenary contract expires. The corporation exists purely as a shell to be inhabited by people that want to war dec another group effectively by proxy (Or who just want to solo pirate without having to have their own corporation). The best part is that the head of the corporation gets a free 5% take from the corps activities and all he has to do is keep the war dec going by paying a small amount every week.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.01.16 08:12:00 - [70] Originally by: Arana Tellen This is what corps are for, have friends that can step in and help. That's your best option. I disagree. If somebody came on corp chat and said "Quick any fighters in system I'm being tickled by an Impairor MAYDAY WARP TO ME NOW!" I think they would be disappointed by the response from their corpmates.
Poreuomai Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.16 12:29:00 - [71] Edited by: Poreuomai on 16/01/2008 12:35:31 Originally by: Pwett No, the problem lies in the fact that a noob ship can pop jetcans at no loss of isk. Indeed. Not small risk, or easily affordable risk, but NO risk at all. And I really don't see why noobs need to be able to steal, either from cans or from other people's wrecks. So here's my suggestion: Make stealing a skill which needs to be trained. Does two things: a) Costs ISK. b) Takes time. It may not address all the issues in this thread but it addresses some of them. EDIT Or not - if the alt trains once and comes back again and again. Require special equipment, like for salvaging ?
Suitonia Gallente interimo	Posted - 2008.01.16 12:38:00 - [72] But you would have no problem with someone flipping you with an 18k Atron? Seriously, this thread is stupid. Do you know how pathetically weak the civilian weapons are anyway. It would take a good 2 minutes to pop a can with them. Newsflash; Jet cans arn't safe, mine into a secure container in 0.7 and below, or have backup/weapons (Drones). --- I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots...
Avery Ubermann Pitbull Industries Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.16 13:14:00 - [73] Nerf n00bships!! Except the Amarr one as its one of the most competitive we have against it'srivals. Advanced Psychosis/ Rank 8 / SP: 666666 of 2048000 Currently training to: level 5
Zepharim Caldari White Dagger	Posted - 2008.01.16 13:23:00 - [74] Simple solution regarding the rookie ship 'exploit', at least in terms of them grabbing a new ship every minute and coming back, would be to create some kind of delay when it comes to the frequency of receiving a rookie ship. I.e: Ship goes boom first time, you have a new rookie ship immediately when you dock. If within 10 minutes it goes boom again, this time upon docking you only receive a rookie ship after 2 minutes. Ship goes boom again within the next 10 minutes after that, you get your rookie ship only 5 minutes after docking. So on if you keep going boom within 10 minutes of your last rookie ship. Delay is 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 mins.. etc etc.. This way that person would need to store at least a dozen frigates in their base in order to use the same tactic. I'm not saying I even think it's an exploit, but there's a simple way of remedying it if need be.
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.16 13:26:00 - [75] Why do i have this nagging feeling that this thread is somehow involved in this discussion? It seems to be the only point (along with it's 0.0 counterpart) where a noobship could actually be used in any of the listed tactics with any usefulness. I mean seriously! How is a free noobship without tackling gear going to intercept a war decced hauler? How's it going to fit a web and scram in the first place? Anyways, CCP already assured that it wasn't an exploit, so /thread.
Poreuomai Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.16 13:57:00 - [76] Edited by: Poreuomai on 16/01/2008 14:00:12 He's already denied being a 'united' alt in this thread. Originally by: Arling Fesk What about making newbie ships incapable of illegal acts? That would still allow all of the above to be done for very little money, but remove the ZERO cost option. I'd support that.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.01.16 14:21:00 - [77] Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 16/01/2008 14:25:42 Originally by: Poreuomai Edited by: Poreuomai on 16/01/2008 14:00:12 He's already denied being a 'united' alt in this thread. Originally by: Arling Fesk What about making newbie ships incapable of illegal acts? That would still allow all of the above to be done for very little money, but remove the ZERO cost option. I'd support that. i seriously doubt he's a miner as he doesnt even understand the mechanics of mining. his original post talks about rookie ships being abuse all over. the only thread ive even read of rookie ships being used effectively is in the 'united' thread linked afew posts above. ffs i miner not being able to fend off a rookie ship, i mean wtf!?! train drones. use giant secure containers. fit a gun in your mining ship. bait the rookie by fitting on mining laser and fit the rest of your ship for combat, webber, scrambler. im convinced this IS a "united" whine. and if hes a miner like he says he is, why not do anything of the above? why does he insist in not listening and just whine about rookie ships being wtfoverpowered? is this thread for real?
Henry Loenwind	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:42:00 - [78] Originally by: Empyre as soon as they flip the can, warp in the command ship and have the hauler web/scramb. so you lose the ore and the thief loses what? A free noob ship. In the meantime his main hauls away the ore---or, as as it happens often enough, the thief shoots one last time at his pre-damged can and destroys your ore.
Tammaria Snegallja	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:45:00 - [79] Originally by: Susan Acid If someone is stupid enough to be jetcan mining they have no cause to complain if someone steals it. Name any other way to transfer ore from the mining ship to the hauler or shut up. PS: Secure can is not one, as they cannot be anchored in 0.8+ and can be scooped by anybody without getting flagged if not.
Henry Loenwind	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:53:00 - [80] Originally by: Arana Tellen Jetcans are not meant for mining, so technically CCP can argue use other cans. Let's see, I fill the biggest available deployable for 0.0 to 0.7 can in ... 1.56 Minutes. Or the other way around, every 2.3 Minutes I fill around 2.03 cans. Yeah, I think with two haulers for every hulk that would be managable. Also, I fill the biggest available deployable for 0.8 to 1.0 can in ... wait, there is no such thing.
Tammaria Snegallja	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:55:00 - [81] Originally by: Sleazy P 1) Don't jetcan mine. Use achored secure cans with a decent password. Then no one can flip your mining can. I'll pay you 3b ISK if you anchor a can for me in Hath. Preferable in a belt. PS: Offer is void if Hath is not 0.8, I cannot log in to check atm.
Minimum Provision	Posted - 2008.01.16 18:07:00 - [82] Originally by: Arkady Roskov if people want to do theft and the like they should be risking something in the process like the majority of players in Eve. Most players in Eve never risk anything in an environment where theie success always comes at the cost of everyone else. Loot/salvage theft only scratches the surface of this 'consequence-free' gameplay, and yet it arouses the passions like nothing else. The sense of entitlement in this game is suffocating sometimes.
Alowishus Pastry Coalition Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.16 18:14:00 - [83] Originally by: Arkady Roskov someone minding their own business trying to enjoy the game in peace. This statement does not apply to Eve. If you ever think that because you are "minding your own business trying to enjoy the game in peace" means you don't have to suffer risk then you think you're playing a different game. /makes fart noise
Little Tigerlilly	Posted - 2008.01.16 18:37:00 - [84] "If people can abuse trial accounts and rookie ships/characters just to anger someone all the time then shouldn't something be done about it or have it at least discussed ? Im not saying ban them all together - if someone wishes to try and cause grief/griefing to others surely they should be risking their own ISK ? Whether its their main or alt char is immaterial. Why should they lose nothing and try to cost someone a lot of money potentially ?" I don't agree that people do this to anger certain players. They do it because they can steal very valuable loot from you. Just like you can steal very valuable loot from other players. It's a game mechanic. Think of these guys as those roving gangs of children on the streets of mexico, if you drop something of value the kids will rush and try and take it. If you don't want them to take your stuff then defend it. If they still get away with some if it then accept that as part of gate camping. Maybe they would be nicer if you shared some of your loot with them?
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.16 18:48:00 - [85] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker I disagree. If somebody came on corp chat and said "Quick any fighters in system I'm being tickled by an Impairor MAYDAY WARP TO ME NOW!" I think they would be disappointed by the response from their corpmates. Actually most mining corps/alliances take harassment of their solo miners very seriously and respond when asked. We, for example, have no problem at all plopping a PvP-fitted command ship in the belt with a miner if someone is bothering them (or acting suspicious) or sending a fast cruiser/HAC to bump the irritation 25-30km away from them and keep them there. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear

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