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Neuraxis Aeon Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.17 07:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Neuraxis Aeon on 17/01/2008 07:08:15 I have been playing this game for a year and I have noticed is hard to keep new players interested in this game. Many people play for 3 months release they are so far behind and leave never to play again. Now if you want to get more people playing this game a solution need to be put in place because I donÆt see a lot of server growth. At peak on a Saturday the server is around 35000 players 30% those are likely alts, I think the population needs to be double that because at off peak times its hard to find good PvP battles. I think all skill training times should be + until you hit say 20mil or 15mil points. Now I know all the older players are complain about doing anything to help new players because they had to do it the hard way... blah blah. But wonÆt be much fun playing when the old players get to busy with life to play and there isnÆt enough new players income to keep the server population up. If something isnÆt done about this I think the game will just slowly die, itÆs already bad enough with a 3+ year gap between a new player and the avg player on the server. IÆm a 1 year old player and IÆm still looking at 2+ years before I can even think about fly a capital ships imagine how crap it is for new player starting this year.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.01.17 07:09:00 - [2] I've got 23 mil sp. I don't like your idea. but I'm not against it. However right now in what it takes me to get battleship 5 a new player can get TONS of skills. However what most people miss is I train at 2100 sp/sec. the new player is at what 1000 sp/sec? making that faster even by 500sp or something wouldn't be so bad would it?
LiLChris06 Miami Labs Empire Research	Posted - 2008.01.17 07:24:00 - [3] I disagree that the server wont grow. If you havent noticed at peak hours during the weekend its like 41k be4 trinity it wasnt that much. And right now high sec systems can barely handle the load, im sure ccp is working on it right guyz! But i do agree that helping new players, but not by cutting the skill time in half till 15/20mil sp thats too easy. Maybe some other method Of course it cant be more learning skills or implants cuz older players can grab them. Only method i see is giving more starting skill points like they did be4. Or maybe add a higher starting base for attributes.
Tezayak	Posted - 2008.01.17 09:10:00 - [4] I am a fairly new player as well, I think a possible solution to this problem might be by not changing the amount of SPs a new character starts with, but rather make the starting skill packages more geared towards learning skills. For me, as a new player, training learning skills and fitting skills was the most boring. For example, an Amarr Khanid Special Force character starts with remote repair systems IV, instead this character could start with Instant Recall IV while keeping the starting amount of SPs same.
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.01.17 09:33:00 - [5] it have been up before and i really don't think that the training time is a problem the learning skill is though.. (which i think should be changed or removed(and then compensated for) and then a +10 to all atrributes) as soon as you got your learnings up to just +9 you will be in a bs in a matter of 2-4 month fully t2 fitted (or maybe -guns but add +1month and you are almost there..). so it is not that which is the problem. a way of gaining sp ingame would also be nice though..s (yer i am at 30mill sp + - and yes i would still like to see just a MINOR increase when i use the skills ^^ (and a big perma ban if exploited as any other game does if you exploit game mechanic) I declare war on stupidity
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.17 09:42:00 - [6] What may be better, in my view anyway, is allow players to respec base attributes one time and one time only. New players just have no idea what attributes do and asking one to reroll three months in or even a week in is just not a reasonable response. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.17 09:43:00 - [7] Just give them the learning skills, it's 200% boring to pump up these skills. If the question is loosing time, lower skill trainig speed, it just solves all! So, advanced learnings are expensive, it's maybe a big present, but having the basic ones at 4 ready for the advanced (skilling those to 3 is fast and allows for proper training of skills, then pause for two weeks again and raise them to 4...) would be a huge thing. Because every newbies receives from elder players the 'train your learnings first', they train it, they don't fly new ships, they get bored... I hope you see how wrong is the 'I loose at least one week of training with stupid learnign skills in my 2 weeks trial account'... -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Fatsam Madhatters Inc. Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:02:00 - [8] I disagree with the OP that most noobs leave the game due to not learning skills fast enough. I would say 80% of the ships I fly can be learnt within a month or two of starting a new character. With electronic attack frigates, interceptors, covert ops and EW cruisers all within reach of 1-2 months training there is no argument that a new player cannot be useful. If these players are not finding roles in corps because they cannot fly commandships or capitals and are pressured into thinking they are therefore of no use, I would say these corp members are to blame; they create a problem in the player's mind that does not exist. I do think learning skills are a waste of time and a bad marketing move from CCP. All new characters should have these skills to 5.
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:27:00 - [9] All the nubs ive 'raised' in eve have left due to the fact that they either dont like the pvp, or just find it slow to actually 'learn the ropes'. None have argued about their skillpoints. this isnt needed, nor wanted.
agent apple Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:45:00 - [10] Edited by: agent apple on 17/01/2008 11:45:03 SIGH why not just give them a titan if they subscribe for a year of the 14d trial?
Darth Felin	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:47:00 - [11] Faster training time is bad idea imho, but It will be great if they will remove all learning skills with adecuate compensation for players who have them already of course.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:48:00 - [12] I started with less than 200K sp (one of the best starting build at the time) and staggering the learning skills with the actual skills I was using I didn't found it so hard to train them (pretty evident as I am still there after 2 years). The players starting now, with 800K+ SP have the equivalent of the character I had after more than a month of play (starting with gunnery 5 or drone 5 is not a little thing, a new player in the past trained them well after a month of play). So a combat oriented character is better off than in the past and can easily do some fighting I could only dream in my first days. A character from the other schools had less in the way of combat skills but still start with a good set of specific skills. On the flipside I can see how someone can be discouraged by the training of the learnig skill tree, seeing it as a daunting task. I would not go to the lengt of removing them all, but adding the equivalent of the first tier skills to all the characteristics (so increasing all the basic characteristics by 5 point) while removing actual skill the could be a good option. That would require to reduce (yes, reduce) the starting build SP by an amount equivalent of the average Sp in learning skills as start. It that was not done a player with 800K SP at start, all in immediately useful skill would be way too powerful. On that regard seeing what I read in the starting corporation chat and on the new citizen forum I get the impression most new players jump as soon as possible in a cruiser, using a frigate for a extremly limited span of time (2 weeks at most). While possibly positive for player run corporation use it think it has a negative effect on the whole PVE part of the game. Level 1 mission become way too easy, mining cruisers greatly outmine mining frigates, industrial pratically donÆt require any prior training. So the new player donÆt learn to do those activityes with limited resources and find them too easy and so get bored by them faster. Probably some more low level mission were the player are required to use small ships and limiting some of the exploration sites in high security to small ships only (even some mining site with better than average ore) could help keeping them interested for the time needed to entrer a corporation and start to see a wider picture of EVE.
DrDooma	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:57:00 - [13] I donÆt see what capital ships have to do with improving game experience for new players. However, giving 2000xp to 5000xp points per week to each character on each account to spend on any skill at any time but only for that character. While this will not grate advantage older characters it will be a significant boost newer character development.
Jain Za Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:59:00 - [14] Edited by: Jain Za on 17/01/2008 12:01:39 This idea is so idiotic im lost for words. Scary thing? CCP might consider it.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.17 12:03:00 - [15] Originally by: MotherMoon However what most people miss is I train at 2100 sp/sec. the new player is at what 1000 sp/sec? Crap.. I only do about 1-1+ / sec.. must be doing something very very wrong.. What most new payers miss, is that SP are not equal to XP. What is needed is a better explanation on how it works, so people don't get discouraged by older players with high SP. 1 man having 50 mill industrial char wil get beaten by 1 guy who has 1 mill pvp char.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.17 12:12:00 - [16] Originally by: DrDooma I donÆt see what capital ships have to do with improving game experience for new players. However, giving 2000xp to 5000xp points per week to each character on each account to spend on any skill at any time but only for that character. While this will not grate advantage older characters it will be a significant boost newer character development. From 600.000 to 1.500.000 month? Above the actual training or in alternative? Based on what? The characteristic will still do something or they will be deleted? Explain what you mean, so far it seem a very bad idea.
gordon861 Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.17 12:20:00 - [17] Edited by: gordon861 on 17/01/2008 12:23:03 Perhaps another idea is to try and base it a little on reality. In RL when everyone around you knows a skill you also pick it up quicker. Think about computers 20 years ago a low percentage of people had access or knew how to use one, nowadays everyone seems to use them from 6 year old kids to your 65 year old granny. So what you do now is check out what skills the 'active community'(have logged in within the last month) has and adjust the skills rank by a percentage. Something like if 90% of the pilots have a skill the Rank also reduces by 90%. You'd probably want to add a cap to the max reduction and only reduce skills that 25-50% of the population have. A Rank 1 skill which 90%+ of the game have would become a Rank 0.1 and it's training time be reduced. So early adopters of new/rare skills would have to train harder for the advantages but as more people know the skill it becomes easier to learn. Because of the way the skills are calculated you'd probably be better adding a training multiplier to the skill rather than reducing its Rank but the effect would be the same. You might want to setup the training multiplier for each level of the skill instead of counting everyone having it at Level 1 as meaning its easy to train to Level 5. The actual numbers would need balancing and I've used these numbers just to illustrate the concept but I think this would work and allow newer players a better chance to appear to catch up(even though they never actually would) without just giving them and extra couple of million SP. The data to set this up could be found out by a CCP datadump once a month and then released into the game 2-4 weeks later. Thoughts/Flames ? Originally by: CCP Arkanon I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I donÆt believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.17 12:31:00 - [18] That's right that newbies have 800k SP now from start, but... Giving them one or two level 5 skills isn't so useful, they don't take benefit from it really because their other skills are just crap. removing this level 5 and distributing these SP in useful skills you can't skip for this race ships (or their specialisation in research/industry/trade/corp management) would be better. Part of this would be giving some learnig skills at 4. CCP already made one good step towards easier learning for noobs : advanced have prerequired only 4, no more 5. When I joined the game, it was still needed to have level 5 in the basic learnings to get the advanced. By the time I completed the level 5, the patch came out and changed the prerequired to 4... And the newbies had more combat skills that I had at that time as people with already 800k SP didn't get any SP... Also, I created the car taking the least specialized way, the more versatile character possible : I had extremely low SPs... So, I may have been the worse combat pilot for some time, noobs being better than me. Such thing could have made many people leave... And the time learning the learning skills looked like an eternity! Learnings are such a huge waste of time as we will all learn them, at least everyone will get the basic at 4 at least. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Y3R M4W	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:19:00 - [19] As opposed as I am to any change that doesn;t benefit me directly ;o I think either removing learning skills (at least basic) and boosting ALL characters attributes by the appropriate numbers; or giving all new characters at least lvl IV basic learnings (either on top of or in exchange for current base skills). Note: YER MAW! is Scottish for Your Mother.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:00:00 - [20] in 3 months i wasnt a moron and i actually trained for an interceptor instead of trying to be cool in a battleship... in 3 months i was the cause of death to many many 3 year old characters... in 6 months, i was leading a killboard for a 100 man alliance dont gimme that newb juice garbage. specialize, train up a t2 frig and pvp in that, and do your isk making in a BC... battleships are the big toys in the game. just cause you CAN fly one within a week of playing, doesnt mean you should. _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Andreya in 3 months i wasnt a moron and i actually trained for an interceptor instead of trying to be cool in a battleship... in 3 months i was the cause of death to many many 3 year old characters... in 6 months, i was leading a killboard for a 100 man alliance dont gimme that newb juice garbage. specialize, train up a t2 frig and pvp in that, and do your isk making in a BC... battleships are the big toys in the game. just cause you CAN fly one within a week of playing, doesnt mean you should. QFT and wisdom * *
Skyr ECP Rogues The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:29:00 - [22] There were two large concessions made in recent history to accommodate new players (something old players didn't get): 1. Lowering advanced learning skills pre-requisites to L4 (they were L5 for the longest time) 2. Changing base number of SPs for starting character to over 800,000 SPs. Learning was never this easy. So big NO to this idea.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Dirtee Girl Originally by: Andreya in 3 months i wasnt a moron and i actually trained for an interceptor instead of trying to be cool in a battleship... in 3 months i was the cause of death to many many 3 year old characters... in 6 months, i was leading a killboard for a 100 man alliance dont gimme that newb juice garbage. specialize, train up a t2 frig and pvp in that, and do your isk making in a BC... battleships are the big toys in the game. just cause you CAN fly one within a week of playing, doesnt mean you should. QFT and wisdom Double QFT! The op's stuff about I can't do anything before 20 million so I should reach this faster is quite wrong. But showing to new players the game with skills not learning at the speed they will later and having to raise skills to learn skills is just crap... Having proper learning levels is 2 weeks, and two weeks is a trial period, so it doesn't give a too good image of the game. Testing patience of new customers from start is bad. Now, at 3 month, you cando fun stuff, and making a survivable interceptor with ultra specialization is one. I would point to this simple thing about the 20M SP : I have 23M now, and I fly recons, as, has, covert-ops, field commands, inties, that's close to all non-BS gallente T2 ships, and by this week end, it will be the same in amarr (amarr frigate already maxed and cruiser finishing this WE). So, we can do many things before 20MSP! You just have to know what you want! Dreads and carriers are not the proper goal to have FUN! There are so many fun ships in the small ones that are easy to master. PS : bigger isn't better, when it is too big, it may hurt ! (because you'll loose it fast, and you, wicked minds, I'm talking about ships!) -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Fumunda minuts	Posted - 2008.01.17 22:34:00 - [24] Being very new to this game (about 1.3 mil. sp)I would like to say. For me personally mining is the worst. Missions are a little better, but the amount of time required to advance levels is too long. My guess is a lot of people like myself want to get a big ship quick and go kill other players. I like to rat but the rats in .5 and above are a bore. But the moment a newbie hops into .4 for a little challenge it happens. For me I thought I was king of the world I just got out of my cramped frigg and got in my shinny new Moa all decked out with named everything. I hopped to the first belt in the closest .4 system and Quickly took out the first rat. It didn't hurt too bad. Then on to the second one. He had me down about half way into my shied but he was about to pop, so I was like no problem this is really fun. Then boom out of nowhere one of those darned Pirates appeared out of nowhere and before I could right click on anything, on his third volley 8 secs later I popped. Then in disbelief I find myself forgetting who I was sitting in some distant station. Point is I now realize it will probably be at least a year or more before I will have a chance in hades making it out alive alone in losec. So what I think this game needs is a little corner of this grand Galaxy we call Eve where noobs can fight noobs without the hopelessness felt the second time you venture into losec alone. Let either sp or age of char depend who can attack who. Otherwise concord could have their way with you. It only has to be allowed in a few systems off in a corner somewhere. All other rules could still apply. I wouldn't have been so mad if my death would have lasted long enough for me to actually gain something from it. As it stands now the only thing I learned was to stay out of losec for a long time until my skills are much better. I would like to get a little more pvp exp before I hop back into losec solo again, but where?. A year of playing againt npcs seems a little like a bore. I think the old timers would hate it though. Imagen most newb's hoping into losec with around a year of sp and good solo pvp exp? For seasoned gamers with a real job and a real life and a real family to share their time it's almost impossible for people to depend on me to be around. Thats why committing to a corp can be a little scary if you never know when you can get on, or for how long but I'm going to try for a bit anyway. Anyhow love the game. I think the sp system is Ok just give us newbs a place to play without worrying about getting hit with the fly swatter.
Blind Man Cosmic Fusion When Fat Kids Attack	Posted - 2008.01.17 22:43:00 - [25] Edited by: Blind Man on 17/01/2008 22:43:47 noobs already start with almost 1m SP.. i started with like 32k and i couldn't stop playing. you will either like eve or not and nothing will ever change that, which is the reason the population of eve is fairly small but steadily increasing. and ive been playing over 3 years and still not even thinking about capital ships
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 22:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Waxau All the nubs ive 'raised' in eve have left due to the fact that they either dont like the pvp, or just find it slow to actually 'learn the ropes'. None have argued about their skillpoints. this isnt needed, nor wanted. Dont forget the stupidity that is the learning skills. Many new players read how important it is to train the learning skills and spend most of their trial training those skills instead of training skills that actually allow you to have more fun. If ccp were to make one change it should be the removal of all learning skills and giving everyone attributes equivilant to having lvl 5 in all the skills. 10% attribute bonus and +10 to every attribute. For older players who have already trained these skills their skills will train twice as fast until they are back where they should be. Learning skills are an impediment to the development of a character, and it hinders newbies from actually having fun. Yes they have the option to train cruisers pretty quickly but if they dont train up the learning skills first they hurt themselves in the long run. Before we even talk about skillpoint gaps between young and older players we should fix this actual hinderance to new players. --
Kryttos Hard Corp Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.01.17 23:27:00 - [27] /veto
Westen Caldari Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.01.18 00:23:00 - [28] I don't agree with the OP. The Bloodlines already provide a great boost to training. Then the requirments for the advanced learning were dropped from lvl 5 to 4. Come on, there has got to be a line somewhere. I am happy to say that I have played on-and-off since release. I have characters w/ 48+, 47+, and 25+ mil SP. The 25 mil character is only 1.5 years old, non-maxed learning and +3's, so there is no need to change anything. New players should realize that the quickest way to gain SP is to do the learning skills, grind missions to get the implants w/ isk or isk/LP and stay in empire. Characters under 6 months should not be in 0.0
Mag's MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.01.18 01:03:00 - [29] This game is meant to be a long hard road. It demands a certain amount of dedication, one being the training times. I understand you can get to level 60 in WoW quite quickly, maybe that's the game for those players. As it stands, it seems the whiners and nerfs seem to be sending us in that direction, sorry to say. Mag's Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you.
Riggs Galactix	Posted - 2008.01.18 09:18:00 - [30] Edited by: Riggs Galactix on 18/01/2008 09:26:11 "old" players would complain for sure. me either i guess. but its more about the money they/me wasted in the same time playing like others would do now faster. "old" players need a skill boost then. and more ppl would cause more lag. I dont like the idea anyway. So, /not signed edit: also.. a new player needs time to learn eve itself (game mechanics). And another example, if i c a new player flying via autopilot through lowsec in a bc hes toast every time. after this skillidea he would just do that in a bs

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