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Neuraxis Aeon Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.17 07:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Neuraxis Aeon on 17/01/2008 07:08:15 I have been playing this game for a year and I have noticed is hard to keep new players interested in this game. Many people play for 3 months release they are so far behind and leave never to play again. Now if you want to get more people playing this game a solution need to be put in place because I donÆt see a lot of server growth. At peak on a Saturday the server is around 35000 players 30% those are likely alts, I think the population needs to be double that because at off peak times its hard to find good PvP battles. I think all skill training times should be + until you hit say 20mil or 15mil points. Now I know all the older players are complain about doing anything to help new players because they had to do it the hard way... blah blah. But wonÆt be much fun playing when the old players get to busy with life to play and there isnÆt enough new players income to keep the server population up. If something isnÆt done about this I think the game will just slowly die, itÆs already bad enough with a 3+ year gap between a new player and the avg player on the server. IÆm a 1 year old player and IÆm still looking at 2+ years before I can even think about fly a capital ships imagine how crap it is for new player starting this year.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.01.17 07:09:00 - [2] I've got 23 mil sp. I don't like your idea. but I'm not against it. However right now in what it takes me to get battleship 5 a new player can get TONS of skills. However what most people miss is I train at 2100 sp/sec. the new player is at what 1000 sp/sec? making that faster even by 500sp or something wouldn't be so bad would it?
LiLChris06 Miami Labs Empire Research	Posted - 2008.01.17 07:24:00 - [3] I disagree that the server wont grow. If you havent noticed at peak hours during the weekend its like 41k be4 trinity it wasnt that much. And right now high sec systems can barely handle the load, im sure ccp is working on it right guyz! But i do agree that helping new players, but not by cutting the skill time in half till 15/20mil sp thats too easy. Maybe some other method Of course it cant be more learning skills or implants cuz older players can grab them. Only method i see is giving more starting skill points like they did be4. Or maybe add a higher starting base for attributes.
Tezayak	Posted - 2008.01.17 09:10:00 - [4] I am a fairly new player as well, I think a possible solution to this problem might be by not changing the amount of SPs a new character starts with, but rather make the starting skill packages more geared towards learning skills. For me, as a new player, training learning skills and fitting skills was the most boring. For example, an Amarr Khanid Special Force character starts with remote repair systems IV, instead this character could start with Instant Recall IV while keeping the starting amount of SPs same.
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.01.17 09:33:00 - [5] it have been up before and i really don't think that the training time is a problem the learning skill is though.. (which i think should be changed or removed(and then compensated for) and then a +10 to all atrributes) as soon as you got your learnings up to just +9 you will be in a bs in a matter of 2-4 month fully t2 fitted (or maybe -guns but add +1month and you are almost there..). so it is not that which is the problem. a way of gaining sp ingame would also be nice though..s (yer i am at 30mill sp + - and yes i would still like to see just a MINOR increase when i use the skills ^^ (and a big perma ban if exploited as any other game does if you exploit game mechanic) I declare war on stupidity
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.17 09:42:00 - [6] What may be better, in my view anyway, is allow players to respec base attributes one time and one time only. New players just have no idea what attributes do and asking one to reroll three months in or even a week in is just not a reasonable response. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.17 09:43:00 - [7] Just give them the learning skills, it's 200% boring to pump up these skills. If the question is loosing time, lower skill trainig speed, it just solves all! So, advanced learnings are expensive, it's maybe a big present, but having the basic ones at 4 ready for the advanced (skilling those to 3 is fast and allows for proper training of skills, then pause for two weeks again and raise them to 4...) would be a huge thing. Because every newbies receives from elder players the 'train your learnings first', they train it, they don't fly new ships, they get bored... I hope you see how wrong is the 'I loose at least one week of training with stupid learnign skills in my 2 weeks trial account'... -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Fatsam Madhatters Inc. Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:02:00 - [8] I disagree with the OP that most noobs leave the game due to not learning skills fast enough. I would say 80% of the ships I fly can be learnt within a month or two of starting a new character. With electronic attack frigates, interceptors, covert ops and EW cruisers all within reach of 1-2 months training there is no argument that a new player cannot be useful. If these players are not finding roles in corps because they cannot fly commandships or capitals and are pressured into thinking they are therefore of no use, I would say these corp members are to blame; they create a problem in the player's mind that does not exist. I do think learning skills are a waste of time and a bad marketing move from CCP. All new characters should have these skills to 5.
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:27:00 - [9] All the nubs ive 'raised' in eve have left due to the fact that they either dont like the pvp, or just find it slow to actually 'learn the ropes'. None have argued about their skillpoints. this isnt needed, nor wanted.
agent apple Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:45:00 - [10] Edited by: agent apple on 17/01/2008 11:45:03 SIGH why not just give them a titan if they subscribe for a year of the 14d trial?
Darth Felin	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:47:00 - [11] Faster training time is bad idea imho, but It will be great if they will remove all learning skills with adecuate compensation for players who have them already of course.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:48:00 - [12] I started with less than 200K sp (one of the best starting build at the time) and staggering the learning skills with the actual skills I was using I didn't found it so hard to train them (pretty evident as I am still there after 2 years). The players starting now, with 800K+ SP have the equivalent of the character I had after more than a month of play (starting with gunnery 5 or drone 5 is not a little thing, a new player in the past trained them well after a month of play). So a combat oriented character is better off than in the past and can easily do some fighting I could only dream in my first days. A character from the other schools had less in the way of combat skills but still start with a good set of specific skills. On the flipside I can see how someone can be discouraged by the training of the learnig skill tree, seeing it as a daunting task. I would not go to the lengt of removing them all, but adding the equivalent of the first tier skills to all the characteristics (so increasing all the basic characteristics by 5 point) while removing actual skill the could be a good option. That would require to reduce (yes, reduce) the starting build SP by an amount equivalent of the average Sp in learning skills as start. It that was not done a player with 800K SP at start, all in immediately useful skill would be way too powerful. On that regard seeing what I read in the starting corporation chat and on the new citizen forum I get the impression most new players jump as soon as possible in a cruiser, using a frigate for a extremly limited span of time (2 weeks at most). While possibly positive for player run corporation use it think it has a negative effect on the whole PVE part of the game. Level 1 mission become way too easy, mining cruisers greatly outmine mining frigates, industrial pratically donÆt require any prior training. So the new player donÆt learn to do those activityes with limited resources and find them too easy and so get bored by them faster. Probably some more low level mission were the player are required to use small ships and limiting some of the exploration sites in high security to small ships only (even some mining site with better than average ore) could help keeping them interested for the time needed to entrer a corporation and start to see a wider picture of EVE.
DrDooma	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:57:00 - [13] I donÆt see what capital ships have to do with improving game experience for new players. However, giving 2000xp to 5000xp points per week to each character on each account to spend on any skill at any time but only for that character. While this will not grate advantage older characters it will be a significant boost newer character development.
Jain Za Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:59:00 - [14] Edited by: Jain Za on 17/01/2008 12:01:39 This idea is so idiotic im lost for words. Scary thing? CCP might consider it.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.17 12:03:00 - [15] Originally by: MotherMoon However what most people miss is I train at 2100 sp/sec. the new player is at what 1000 sp/sec? Crap.. I only do about 1-1+ / sec.. must be doing something very very wrong.. What most new payers miss, is that SP are not equal to XP. What is needed is a better explanation on how it works, so people don't get discouraged by older players with high SP. 1 man having 50 mill industrial char wil get beaten by 1 guy who has 1 mill pvp char.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.17 12:12:00 - [16] Originally by: DrDooma I donÆt see what capital ships have to do with improving game experience for new players. However, giving 2000xp to 5000xp points per week to each character on each account to spend on any skill at any time but only for that character. While this will not grate advantage older characters it will be a significant boost newer character development. From 600.000 to 1.500.000 month? Above the actual training or in alternative? Based on what? The characteristic will still do something or they will be deleted? Explain what you mean, so far it seem a very bad idea.
gordon861 Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.17 12:20:00 - [17] Edited by: gordon861 on 17/01/2008 12:23:03 Perhaps another idea is to try and base it a little on reality. In RL when everyone around you knows a skill you also pick it up quicker. Think about computers 20 years ago a low percentage of people had access or knew how to use one, nowadays everyone seems to use them from 6 year old kids to your 65 year old granny. So what you do now is check out what skills the 'active community'(have logged in within the last month) has and adjust the skills rank by a percentage. Something like if 90% of the pilots have a skill the Rank also reduces by 90%. You'd probably want to add a cap to the max reduction and only reduce skills that 25-50% of the population have. A Rank 1 skill which 90%+ of the game have would become a Rank 0.1 and it's training time be reduced. So early adopters of new/rare skills would have to train harder for the advantages but as more people know the skill it becomes easier to learn. Because of the way the skills are calculated you'd probably be better adding a training multiplier to the skill rather than reducing its Rank but the effect would be the same. You might want to setup the training multiplier for each level of the skill instead of counting everyone having it at Level 1 as meaning its easy to train to Level 5. The actual numbers would need balancing and I've used these numbers just to illustrate the concept but I think this would work and allow newer players a better chance to appear to catch up(even though they never actually would) without just giving them and extra couple of million SP. The data to set this up could be found out by a CCP datadump once a month and then released into the game 2-4 weeks later. Thoughts/Flames ? Originally by: CCP Arkanon I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I donÆt believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.17 12:31:00 - [18] That's right that newbies have 800k SP now from start, but... Giving them one or two level 5 skills isn't so useful, they don't take benefit from it really because their other skills are just crap. removing this level 5 and distributing these SP in useful skills you can't skip for this race ships (or their specialisation in research/industry/trade/corp management) would be better. Part of this would be giving some learnig skills at 4. CCP already made one good step towards easier learning for noobs : advanced have prerequired only 4, no more 5. When I joined the game, it was still needed to have level 5 in the basic learnings to get the advanced. By the time I completed the level 5, the patch came out and changed the prerequired to 4... And the newbies had more combat skills that I had at that time as people with already 800k SP didn't get any SP... Also, I created the car taking the least specialized way, the more versatile character possible : I had extremely low SPs... So, I may have been the worse combat pilot for some time, noobs being better than me. Such thing could have made many people leave... And the time learning the learning skills looked like an eternity! Learnings are such a huge waste of time as we will all learn them, at least everyone will get the basic at 4 at least. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Y3R M4W	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:19:00 - [19] As opposed as I am to any change that doesn;t benefit me directly ;o I think either removing learning skills (at least basic) and boosting ALL characters attributes by the appropriate numbers; or giving all new characters at least lvl IV basic learnings (either on top of or in exchange for current base skills). Note: YER MAW! is Scottish for Your Mother.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:00:00 - [20] in 3 months i wasnt a moron and i actually trained for an interceptor instead of trying to be cool in a battleship... in 3 months i was the cause of death to many many 3 year old characters... in 6 months, i was leading a killboard for a 100 man alliance dont gimme that newb juice garbage. specialize, train up a t2 frig and pvp in that, and do your isk making in a BC... battleships are the big toys in the game. just cause you CAN fly one within a week of playing, doesnt mean you should. _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Andreya in 3 months i wasnt a moron and i actually trained for an interceptor instead of trying to be cool in a battleship... in 3 months i was the cause of death to many many 3 year old characters... in 6 months, i was leading a killboard for a 100 man alliance dont gimme that newb juice garbage. specialize, train up a t2 frig and pvp in that, and do your isk making in a BC... battleships are the big toys in the game. just cause you CAN fly one within a week of playing, doesnt mean you should. QFT and wisdom * *
Skyr ECP Rogues The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:29:00 - [22] There were two large concessions made in recent history to accommodate new players (something old players didn't get): 1. Lowering advanced learning skills pre-requisites to L4 (they were L5 for the longest time) 2. Changing base number of SPs for starting character to over 800,000 SPs. Learning was never this easy. So big NO to this idea.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Dirtee Girl Originally by: Andreya in 3 months i wasnt a moron and i actually trained for an interceptor instead of trying to be cool in a battleship... in 3 months i was the cause of death to many many 3 year old characters... in 6 months, i was leading a killboard for a 100 man alliance dont gimme that newb juice garbage. specialize, train up a t2 frig and pvp in that, and do your isk making in a BC... battleships are the big toys in the game. just cause you CAN fly one within a week of playing, doesnt mean you should. QFT and wisdom Double QFT! The op's stuff about I can't do anything before 20 million so I should reach this faster is quite wrong. But showing to new players the game with skills not learning at the speed they will later and having to raise skills to learn skills is just crap... Having proper learning levels is 2 weeks, and two weeks is a trial period, so it doesn't give a too good image of the game. Testing patience of new customers from start is bad. Now, at 3 month, you cando fun stuff, and making a survivable interceptor with ultra specialization is one. I would point to this simple thing about the 20M SP : I have 23M now, and I fly recons, as, has, covert-ops, field commands, inties, that's close to all non-BS gallente T2 ships, and by this week end, it will be the same in amarr (amarr frigate already maxed and cruiser finishing this WE). So, we can do many things before 20MSP! You just have to know what you want! Dreads and carriers are not the proper goal to have FUN! There are so many fun ships in the small ones that are easy to master. PS : bigger isn't better, when it is too big, it may hurt ! (because you'll loose it fast, and you, wicked minds, I'm talking about ships!) -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Fumunda minuts	Posted - 2008.01.17 22:34:00 - [24] Being very new to this game (about 1.3 mil. sp)I would like to say. For me personally mining is the worst. Missions are a little better, but the amount of time required to advance levels is too long. My guess is a lot of people like myself want to get a big ship quick and go kill other players. I like to rat but the rats in .5 and above are a bore. But the moment a newbie hops into .4 for a little challenge it happens. For me I thought I was king of the world I just got out of my cramped frigg and got in my shinny new Moa all decked out with named everything. I hopped to the first belt in the closest .4 system and Quickly took out the first rat. It didn't hurt too bad. Then on to the second one. He had me down about half way into my shied but he was about to pop, so I was like no problem this is really fun. Then boom out of nowhere one of those darned Pirates appeared out of nowhere and before I could right click on anything, on his third volley 8 secs later I popped. Then in disbelief I find myself forgetting who I was sitting in some distant station. Point is I now realize it will probably be at least a year or more before I will have a chance in hades making it out alive alone in losec. So what I think this game needs is a little corner of this grand Galaxy we call Eve where noobs can fight noobs without the hopelessness felt the second time you venture into losec alone. Let either sp or age of char depend who can attack who. Otherwise concord could have their way with you. It only has to be allowed in a few systems off in a corner somewhere. All other rules could still apply. I wouldn't have been so mad if my death would have lasted long enough for me to actually gain something from it. As it stands now the only thing I learned was to stay out of losec for a long time until my skills are much better. I would like to get a little more pvp exp before I hop back into losec solo again, but where?. A year of playing againt npcs seems a little like a bore. I think the old timers would hate it though. Imagen most newb's hoping into losec with around a year of sp and good solo pvp exp? For seasoned gamers with a real job and a real life and a real family to share their time it's almost impossible for people to depend on me to be around. Thats why committing to a corp can be a little scary if you never know when you can get on, or for how long but I'm going to try for a bit anyway. Anyhow love the game. I think the sp system is Ok just give us newbs a place to play without worrying about getting hit with the fly swatter.
Blind Man Cosmic Fusion When Fat Kids Attack	Posted - 2008.01.17 22:43:00 - [25] Edited by: Blind Man on 17/01/2008 22:43:47 noobs already start with almost 1m SP.. i started with like 32k and i couldn't stop playing. you will either like eve or not and nothing will ever change that, which is the reason the population of eve is fairly small but steadily increasing. and ive been playing over 3 years and still not even thinking about capital ships
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 22:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Waxau All the nubs ive 'raised' in eve have left due to the fact that they either dont like the pvp, or just find it slow to actually 'learn the ropes'. None have argued about their skillpoints. this isnt needed, nor wanted. Dont forget the stupidity that is the learning skills. Many new players read how important it is to train the learning skills and spend most of their trial training those skills instead of training skills that actually allow you to have more fun. If ccp were to make one change it should be the removal of all learning skills and giving everyone attributes equivilant to having lvl 5 in all the skills. 10% attribute bonus and +10 to every attribute. For older players who have already trained these skills their skills will train twice as fast until they are back where they should be. Learning skills are an impediment to the development of a character, and it hinders newbies from actually having fun. Yes they have the option to train cruisers pretty quickly but if they dont train up the learning skills first they hurt themselves in the long run. Before we even talk about skillpoint gaps between young and older players we should fix this actual hinderance to new players. --
Kryttos Hard Corp Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.01.17 23:27:00 - [27] /veto
Westen Caldari Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.01.18 00:23:00 - [28] I don't agree with the OP. The Bloodlines already provide a great boost to training. Then the requirments for the advanced learning were dropped from lvl 5 to 4. Come on, there has got to be a line somewhere. I am happy to say that I have played on-and-off since release. I have characters w/ 48+, 47+, and 25+ mil SP. The 25 mil character is only 1.5 years old, non-maxed learning and +3's, so there is no need to change anything. New players should realize that the quickest way to gain SP is to do the learning skills, grind missions to get the implants w/ isk or isk/LP and stay in empire. Characters under 6 months should not be in 0.0
Mag's MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.01.18 01:03:00 - [29] This game is meant to be a long hard road. It demands a certain amount of dedication, one being the training times. I understand you can get to level 60 in WoW quite quickly, maybe that's the game for those players. As it stands, it seems the whiners and nerfs seem to be sending us in that direction, sorry to say. Mag's Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you.
Riggs Galactix	Posted - 2008.01.18 09:18:00 - [30] Edited by: Riggs Galactix on 18/01/2008 09:26:11 "old" players would complain for sure. me either i guess. but its more about the money they/me wasted in the same time playing like others would do now faster. "old" players need a skill boost then. and more ppl would cause more lag. I dont like the idea anyway. So, /not signed edit: also.. a new player needs time to learn eve itself (game mechanics). And another example, if i c a new player flying via autopilot through lowsec in a bc hes toast every time. after this skillidea he would just do that in a bs
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.18 09:54:00 - [31] The people who complain anout skillpoints either just want to "play through" the game in a few months and leave, or they think high skillpoints will make them "uber" and that that is the only difference between them and the people who have played for a while, or both. In the first case they're going to leave anyway, and in the latter case I'd personally rather see them leave than stay.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.18 11:00:00 - [32] Learning skills is learning to learn... Paying with time the time you will get. Personnaly, I don't pay to work to get paid later... This is the wrong way. And SP never made anyone uber : you can have tons of skills, just try do do something in a battleship and die horribly because you didn't know at all how to fit the ship or the good combat manoeuvers to use. Even old players continuously learn about the gameplay, recently, I got to test PvP fits for my astarte and tried against my older corpmates. One that had always been quite successfull in PvP with a megathron just uncovered a flaw in his megathron, the first time, I won easyly, the next time it was quite an equal match and the last time, he ripped me in parts while I didn't get more than half his armor. His character skills were not important, only the good fitting and proper using of his ship. Newbies don't need more SP, they need no waste of time in skills that are a pain to raise like learnings. Because of learnings being very low in the starting characters, the first thing they have to do is 'not learning new things' and it's just not fun not to be able to discover new things continuously during your trial. Ps : Many of us began very low, I guess I was under 100k SP maybe even around 50k at start! Learning a new gunnery skill was good, learning destroyers was good, but learning the learning things made me just like 'oh crap, I have several weeks of training there with no new stuf to try' and it sucked. New players' life should be 'one day one new toy' and not 'learning learning learning...'! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
gordon861 Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.18 11:50:00 - [33] I still think the solution I posted to this issue would help new players and also help existing players that want to cross train to other races ships. Originally by: CCP Arkanon I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I donÆt believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe.
Koti Resci Knighthawk Light Industries	Posted - 2008.01.18 11:59:00 - [34] Remove learning skills. Grant everyone +10 to all attributes. Everyone who has skillpoints in learning should be recompensed with an equal amount of time worth of training other skills for free. After three months from your subscription, you should be allowed to redistribute your attributes. You should be allowed to do this once more every year. This would allow newbies to not need to re-roll their characters for optimum attributes. And every month, you should be allowed to redistribute 10% of your total skillpoints. This would allow for people to train into other things after their toys have received major nerfs. This of course would require that you refund the time for training, and not the skillpoints themselves. Otherwise someone might train up something really fast and throw the skillpoints into something that trains up really slow; for example, high perception/willpower pilots throwing frigate 5 into anchoring 5 to reduce the time required for starbase defense management.
Internet Knight	Posted - 2008.01.18 12:01:00 - [35] Originally by: gordon861 Edited by: gordon861 on 17/01/2008 12:23:03 Perhaps another idea is to try and base it a little on reality. In RL when everyone around you knows a skill you also pick it up quicker. Think about computers 20 years ago a low percentage of people had access or knew how to use one, nowadays everyone seems to use them from 6 year old kids to your 65 year old granny. So what you do now is check out what skills the 'active community'(have logged in within the last month) has and adjust the skills rank by a percentage. Something like if 90% of the pilots have a skill the Rank also reduces by 90%. You'd probably want to add a cap to the max reduction and only reduce skills that 25-50% of the population have. A Rank 1 skill which 90%+ of the game have would become a Rank 0.1 and it's training time be reduced. So early adopters of new/rare skills would have to train harder for the advantages but as more people know the skill it becomes easier to learn. Because of the way the skills are calculated you'd probably be better adding a training multiplier to the skill rather than reducing its Rank but the effect would be the same. You might want to setup the training multiplier for each level of the skill instead of counting everyone having it at Level 1 as meaning its easy to train to Level 5. The actual numbers would need balancing and I've used these numbers just to illustrate the concept but I think this would work and allow newer players a better chance to appear to catch up(even though they never actually would) without just giving them and extra couple of million SP. The data to set this up could be found out by a CCP datadump once a month and then released into the game 2-4 weeks later. Thoughts/Flames ? Nice idea. Too bad it wouldn't have a nice effect on gameplay. What you'd end up with is all of the "old" skills training really fast because everyone has them. And you'd also end up with trend skills becoming more trendy, simply because they train faster than non-trendy skills. --- How to resolve Singularity character syncing
Salacir Khan	Posted - 2008.01.18 12:16:00 - [36] Good Intentions, Bad Idea! If CCP would half the training time i would have a carrier alt up in 6 month or something. You know why Carriers or Command Ships are so great to have ? Because it takes a LONG time to get them. You dont need them to compete with older players really. Train something smaller to the Max and there is no way an Older Char is doing better when it comes to Cepter vs. Ceptor. I dont fly a Cap myself, but whenever one of my Coprmates finished Carrier/Dread I they wouldnt stop cheering for a week. If it would take juts a couple of Month it wouldnt be that much of a deal anymore. Training skills can be fun in a way. I always look forward to completing training. The harder the Skill, the more joy when its done. besides I wouldnt like EvE when everybody was zooming around in a Cap or Command Ship, they are supposed to be. High training times forces u to specialize. And thats how its supposed to be. Oh, and i can imagine how ppl will start complaining that Caps are way too expensive since u can fly them after 6 month and u wount have the money at that time.... :( I agree however that the elimination of learing skills is a good idea. Would help new players enjoy the game sooner and doesnt have that big impact on the plaver balancing anyway. Also Atributes should be explaind a bit more thouroughly during the Char Chreation. Think that would help alot. If u find out that u totaly screwd up on Char creation after 3 month... well Im mnot sure how many Ppl actually reroll and start all over...
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.18 14:34:00 - [37] There is a lot of missperceptions in this subject. First, you for sure do n need 20 mil sp do be useful. At 2-3 M Sp you can already be a pretty successful BC pilot or interceptor pilot. The biggest problem is exactly the too advanced start of now. people start up basically already in cruisers. They never learn the hard thing with cheap equipment.. You can go to low sec in your third week in game no problem. Go in a frigate. Have some fun, loose a few frigates, buy new ones they are cheap! With time you will try a cruiser, will loose a few, then will start to loose less will get in a proper corp learn how to pvp, avoid traps etc.. The best times i had in eve were the first 2 months with a corp of other newb people I joined into. Lots of fun to be had. For sure while newb you won get onm the upper level politics and galactic warfare. But for god sake! Have a bit of patience. You must have something else to aim in the future. Game woudl be utterly boringif in 1 month you were "max level". ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.18 17:20:00 - [38] Originally by: Kagura Nikon The biggest problem is exactly the too advanced start of now. people start up basically already in cruisers. They never learn the hard thing with cheap equipment.. This seems indeed very true. It would be better if people started with a different starting package than it is now (at least for the military pilots) : -More basic learning skills : Give the two you already give at 4, others at 2 -Less piloting skills : people must not have the skills to train cruiser right from start, it's flawed ! -More support skills : It means more tanking, easier fitting, better cap, better sensors, so many things newbies miss until you point them toward the skills, they only think bigger ships... Give them more variety in the skills. Those three ideas goes to this : same number of starting SP (800k), more starting learnings means less pain to train the must have skills before training others, less newbies in cruisers loosing them too fast before they know 'only fly what you can afford to loose'. I think it would make new player experience better this way. They could more feel the potential of smaller ships and when they upgrade to cruisers after maybe a week, they will fly them better than now. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Tunak	Posted - 2008.01.18 22:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Neuraxis Aeon Many people play for 3 months release they are so far behind and leave never to play again. ...itÆs already bad enough with a 3+ year gap between a new player and the avg player on the server. This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the skill system works. The straight line path to any item or ship in the game is fairly short. The only thing age gets you is diversity. Quote: IÆm a 1 year old player and IÆm still looking at 2+ years before I can even think about fly a capital ships imagine how crap it is for new player starting this year. You are solely to blame for this. It does not take 3 years to capital train. Do you have no perc?
Stormaar	Posted - 2008.01.28 10:44:00 - [40] Too much peoples get out on trial - interface. Most ugliest thing in world of MMO games. No one care about this problem. New ships, skills, items - for what, if no one play? From evry 10 peoples who see EVE 1 or 2 stay in EVE. Reason one - interface. And this thing on foreground of: WOW!! Cool! Very nice. Relax. 5 years with audithory 50k +/- some alts, may be more - donno, its living dead. No other words. Im like EVE, but im hate EVE interface. And spending too much time to fight not with mobs or players - but with them. About theme of topic: leave skills as is. All ok. Im play aprox 3 month and can fly on Mega and Raven, but im still noob ) and while im learning skills im didnt go to low or 0.0 and this great economy of my money and nerves. Natural balance may be. Sorry for litle offtop and my english.
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2008.01.29 00:34:00 - [41] Originally by: Andreya in 3 months i wasnt a moron and i actually trained for an interceptor instead of trying to be cool in a battleship... in 3 months i was the cause of death to many many 3 year old characters... in 6 months, i was leading a killboard for a 100 man alliance dont gimme that newb juice garbage. specialize, train up a t2 frig and pvp in that, and do your isk making in a BC... battleships are the big toys in the game. just cause you CAN fly one within a week of playing, doesnt mean you should. /thread Seriously, there should be a greater emphasis on using what you have to do damage. More skillpoints will do nothing but make newbies lose more isk because they tried something before they were ready.
Fanjita	Posted - 2008.01.29 05:11:00 - [42] Originally by: Neuraxis Aeon Edited by: Neuraxis Aeon on 17/01/2008 07:08:15 I have been playing this game for a year and I have noticed is hard to keep new players interested in this game. Many people play for 3 months release they are so far behind and leave never to play again. Now if you want to get more people playing this game a solution need to be put in place because I donÆt see a lot of server growth. At peak on a Saturday the server is around 35000 players 30% those are likely alts, I think the population needs to be double that because at off peak times its hard to find good PvP battles. I think all skill training times should be + until you hit say 20mil or 15mil points. Now I know all the older players are complain about doing anything to help new players because they had to do it the hard way... blah blah. But wonÆt be much fun playing when the old players get to busy with life to play and there isnÆt enough new players income to keep the server population up. If something isnÆt done about this I think the game will just slowly die, itÆs already bad enough with a 3+ year gap between a new player and the avg player on the server. IÆm a 1 year old player and IÆm still looking at 2+ years before I can even think about fly a capital ships imagine how crap it is for new player starting this year. you could of used that argument about 5 years ago when the game was released but strangely enough there are still beta players playing the game if a noob doesnt want to put any effort or time into a game like eve he's playing the wrong game.
Syberbolt8 Gallente The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.29 05:25:00 - [43] all I can say is read this post. linkage now find my post, this applys here as much as it does there.
Blazing Fire Interstellar Operations Incorporated Black-Out	Posted - 2008.01.29 10:45:00 - [44] Remove the Learning skills and add more attibutes to all chars. Training the Learning skills drive the new players out of EVE. Blazing Fire CEO Interstellar Operations Incorporated Corp web site Recruitment PvPeers wanted for 0.0 Fleet ops and roaming/defense gangs Looking for experienced players Looking for new EVE players Services [Service] Killboard hosting [Service] Forum hosting [Service] Web site hosting [Service] Obelisk for rent [Service] Alliance Creation Lotteries[/b] [Lottery] [EJIL] EVE Jackpot ISK Lottery
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.29 11:44:00 - [45] Eve has never been more noob friendly. You don't have to train up each learning skill to five to access the advanced learning skills. That's a MONTH shaved off right there. They start with more SP. Something like 10x as much, and the skills are a better distribution at the start. ISK is easier than ever to make, implants are dirt cheap. Noobs in Eve become effective far faster now than they ever have in the history of Eve. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Tyr Zewa Caldari Tax Collectors	Posted - 2008.01.29 12:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Tunak Originally by: Neuraxis Aeon Many people play for 3 months release they are so far behind and leave never to play again. ...itÆs already bad enough with a 3+ year gap between a new player and the avg player on the server. This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the skill system works. The straight line path to any item or ship in the game is fairly short. The only thing age gets you is diversity. So only old players are allowed diversity? And a new player has to chose one path and only fly that one ship? Maybe that's why they leave, flying the same ship all the time get's boring for most people.
Arcord Gallente Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2008.01.29 16:09:00 - [47] Originally by: Neuraxis Aeon Edited by: Neuraxis Aeon on 17/01/2008 07:08:15 I have been playing this game for a year and I have noticed is hard to keep new players interested in this game. Many people play for 3 months release they are so far behind and leave never to play again. Now if you want to get more people playing this game a solution need to be put in place because I donÆt see a lot of server growth. At peak on a Saturday the server is around 35000 players 30% those are likely alts, I think the population needs to be double that because at off peak times its hard to find good PvP battles. I think all skill training times should be + until you hit say 20mil or 15mil points. Now I know all the older players are complain about doing anything to help new players because they had to do it the hard way... blah blah. But wonÆt be much fun playing when the old players get to busy with life to play and there isnÆt enough new players income to keep the server population up. If something isnÆt done about this I think the game will just slowly die, itÆs already bad enough with a 3+ year gap between a new player and the avg player on the server. IÆm a 1 year old player and IÆm still looking at 2+ years before I can even think about fly a capital ships imagine how crap it is for new player starting this year. thats the worst idea i have seen here in a long time...actually ever cut training in half? are you kidding me?? that would be soo brutally unfair... yes i know that new players cannot keep up with the older ones but hey how about to specialize? it is not hard to fly battleship just after couple of months of skilling...it takes what? 1-2 days to learn new skill to lvl 4 for a relativly young player? guess what it takes month for me to learn some skills up to lvl 5 simply because i have them on lvl 4 already...and during this time noobs can learn bunch of stuff...yes they will never catch up but so what? they dont have to... and one more thing...its hard for you to find good battles even at peak time? lol, come to fountain or delve where i live and i guarrantee that you will not be bored...just look around and dont be sitting duck in the station buddy 0/10
Lars Erlkonig Caldari Ars ex Discordia	Posted - 2008.01.29 16:46:00 - [48] The new player skillpoint boost was both appropriate and well measured. No more should be needed to help them get off the ground. I've been playing for about 20 months now, and watching new players in my corp flying a BC/BS with some decent amount of skill and fitting ability in about a month shows that the changes were implemented well enough to give a more than adequate boost. Any of the new starting packages can make a very strong showing with less than a week of focused training. Having t2 fitted ships in a week is a bit more than I had the privilege of knowing. Part of the enjoyment of this game comes from finding your niche. I have corp mates/friends with perfect refine skills, or perfect gang skills, or perfect scan skills or who have worked at setting eve speed records. Each derives enjoyment from being "on top" of their own part of the game. the time required for each to achieve this is part of what makes their niche that enjoyable. In a 200 man corp, very few of us have Fleet Command trained to IV, but when we need it, we have a pilot who can step up and excel. That is part of their enjoyment in being "special" and a large benefit from specialization.
Sniggerdly Hater	Posted - 2008.01.29 18:37:00 - [49] Originally by: Fumunda minuts For me I thought I was king of the world I just got out of my cramped frigg and got in my shinny new Moa all decked out with named everything. I hopped to the first belt in the closest .4 system and Quickly took out the first rat. It didn't hurt too bad. Then on to the second one. He had me down about half way into my shied but he was about to pop, so I was like no problem this is really fun. Then boom out of nowhere one of those darned Pirates appeared out of nowhere and before I could right click on anything, on his third volley 8 secs later I popped. Then in disbelief I find myself forgetting who I was sitting in some distant station. Hint 1: You didn't die out of low skillpoints. You died because you suck in pvp, as you should as you've never done it. Originally by: Fumunda minuts Point is I now realize it will probably be at least a year or more before I will have a chance in hades making it out alive alone in losec. Hint 2: At which point you will jump to low sec and die a horrible death because you lack the experience to use your skillpoints effectively or actually know what you are doing. Originally by: Fumunda minuts So what I think this game needs is a little corner of this grand Galaxy we call Eve where noobs can fight noobs without the hopelessness felt the second time you venture into losec alone. Let either sp or age of char depend who can attack who. Hint 3: Experienced players will rip you apart. Experienced players will create noob characters and rip you apart. Because you don't know how to play properly. Originally by: Fumunda minuts I think the sp system is Ok just give us newbs a place to play without worrying about getting hit with the fly swatter. Hint 4: You failed to learn from your experience. There were learning opportunities and you missed them. Get a cheaper ship, go back, and die as many times as you have to. All you get to kill in belts is either bait or noobs. And most of the noobs, killed once or twice at a belt, won't go back. Thus reinforcing the bait or noobs belting.
Arcord Gallente Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:01:00 - [50] Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Originally by: Kagura Nikon The biggest problem is exactly the too advanced start of now. people start up basically already in cruisers. They never learn the hard thing with cheap equipment.. This seems indeed very true. It would be better if people started with a different starting package than it is now (at least for the military pilots) : -More basic learning skills : Give the two you already give at 4, others at 2 -Less piloting skills : people must not have the skills to train cruiser right from start, it's flawed ! -More support skills : It means more tanking, easier fitting, better cap, better sensors, so many things newbies miss until you point them toward the skills, they only think bigger ships... Give them more variety in the skills. Those three ideas goes to this : same number of starting SP (800k), more starting learnings means less pain to train the must have skills before training others, less newbies in cruisers loosing them too fast before they know 'only fly what you can afford to loose'. I think it would make new player experience better this way. They could more feel the potential of smaller ships and when they upgrade to cruisers after maybe a week, they will fly them better than now. totally agree but you know how it goes with newbies...they see big ships and they want them, they dont understand that you can do better tricks with one month old char in a frigate than in a battleship...but nvm that better starting SP package would solve this problem...hell i started playing with basicaly nothing(like 40k sp or so...)
Terraisa Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:02:00 - [51] Edited by: Terraisa Nichols on 29/01/2008 19:02:23 I see the month it takes to train up learning skills as a far greater barrier for new players than starting SP. Remove learning skills entirely and redistribute points as base attributes. (and yea.. give the invested SP back)
Kekzanid	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:55:00 - [52] Hark, what's that I hear, 'It used to be so much harder, you lucky noobies...' Um, no it didn't, back then there were less tech II ships, no HACs, no mauraders, covops, there were no/fewer carriers, MOMs and titans. Costs of tech II ships were higher so you had to be careful, meaning less were around. There were no HICs to insta bubble. So it was a hell of a lot easier. Yes, you need goals, but you forget you've progressed as the game has, the game has changed and now new players are at a massive disadvantage to you. When I first started playing eve I liked the skill thing, it made me think hey, I can train to level 3 or 4 and not be too far off the older players with lvl5s. Yeah, they have an advantage, but not a massive one. This is a good system. And then a few months later I realised that in fact old players don't fly frigates or cruisers. They're in HACs, command ships, BSes, carriers. They have Tech II guns and tech II drones. They can use tech II armor and shield hardners requiring lvl5 skills that even named items can't touch. They can use thermodynamics. And the advantage this lot gives isn't a bit. It's massive. It's not about the best fit or the best tactics, it's about who can get a full tech II fit. Who's got maxed out lvl5 skills because they allow you to get into ships that give massive advantages, not a small one. There's such an obsession about the uber fit and it's because you can't get in different ships easily. Oh sorry, I should specialize should I? That just shows you how rediculous it's got. Within a week or two of playing eve you better decide what you wanna fly or you're gonna be owned by everyone. And you think the older players get shut down? They're sold on just like WoW but it's even worse as at least you can catch up in WoW. And CCP just rebalanced the ships? An older player has probably cross trained so it's not so bad. Perhaps this char is an alt, just sell it on eve-o. To a newer player with one char you're potentially talking about half his skills have just been wiped out with the stroke of a pen. lvl5 frigate/cruiser/BS is required for the tech II ships, lvl5 energy management is required for thermodynamics, lvl5 small/med/large turrets is required for tech 2 guns, lvl5 drones/scout drones, lvl5 hull upgrades (just noticed shield upgrade IV needed for tech II hardners, cheers CCP, next time on character creation could you change the description for Amarr race to 'honestly, don't bother'). Wam, months, months of skill training just appeared in evemon. Just to fly a HAC. Actually, think you'd prefer to fly a Sac? Whoops, there goes another 30 days to get your missile skills up to a half decent lvl cause of HAM V. In fact, there are so many lvl5 skills required to catch up with vagabond fliers, Sniper BSes, etc. that it's stupid. If you want to roam in fast nano gangs AND fly Tech II BSes, what's wrong with that? You saying because I joined the game a year or 2 after you, that it's ok that you get to play with all the stuff that I can't? I don't mind giving you an advantage, I just want to play. I couldn't give a toss about carriers, but if I really wanted one, why should it take me a year? If I wanna spunk all that isk, why shouldn't I? What I really want to suggest is dropping the lvl5 requirements on everything. Lvl5 then just give you that boost, which with the way % stacking works gives you a real advantage if you spec. But there's no way the older community could handle that. So drop the massive stacking on the skills. So instead of 1 hr, 5 hrs, 25 hrs, 125hrs, 26 flippin days make it something more playable for a casual gamer. I'm still saying exponential, but ease it up a bit. There are so many skills now. The older players lose nothing, they've still got an SP advantage and will still maintain it. The new players get more choice. And players who say 'if you're young you shouldn't be in 0.0' should be taken outside and podded.
Arcord Gallente Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:54:00 - [53] Edited by: Arcord on 29/01/2008 20:57:27 Kekzanid- i liked first half of your post...not the rest though...its true that some T2 modules have pretty high skill requirements, but it just doesnt feel right that 2 months old char should already be sitting in a HAC with T2 guns and modules...dont you think? it sounds ridiculous...we have played for some time, thus we should have some advantage over the new players...we have started at some point too, and yes we had to be noobs at the beginnig...everyone went through that, but just remember that after some time you have to inevitably catch up with older players...you may not fly carrier but it doesnt take so long to get fully T2 fitted battleship, does it? what more advantage would veteran player have over you? everybody has to go through skilling process and it takes time, no matter if you are 2 months or 2 years old char...dont try to put older and more experienced players in disadvatage, thats simply NOT fair and last point, as you said that young player should not go into 0.0...well that doesnt really matter on amount of SP, but rather on the player's understanding of the game, finding itself the right role and a lot of other stuff...i was brought up in 0.0 and it gave me invaluable experience but not everybody is ready to be from the very beginning... empire is just so much safer for newbies...they should stick to it for their own sake...at least for some time
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.01.30 00:29:00 - [54] no to increased training speed for newbies. Its just silly, you can get in any non capital ship in the space of maybe 3-4 months, and fly with any nano gang, or BS sniper gang....sure, maybe not both, but you train for one while flying the other. And learning skills are fine, they should NOT be removed. If all it takes is the simple concept of investing in the future by training these skills now to drive away players, then let those players leave. EVE is not for everyone, nor should it be, nor was it intended to be, nor does that say anything about the people who do leave. This is why there are different games, they cater to different likes and dislikes. EVE should not be changed to be like all the rest. EVE is about patience. Perserverance. Planning for the future. Its about working together as a team. Newbies should not expect to survive solo anywhere. Ive been playing for 3 years, and I do not expect to survive solo in 0.0. There WILL ALWAYS be someone better, someone older, someone in a better ship, someone who spent more isks, etc. In any case, older players do leave, and the average skillpoint in EVE is less than 20 mil iirc from the economic newsletter. Originally by: Meridius Dex I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability
Krando Tellesse	Posted - 2008.01.30 00:37:00 - [55] The best help for new players isn't to increase there skill training time as it takes alot of time to build up your isk and faction working missions. What you need to do to keep new people arounds is to help them out. Put them in a corp. that is geared to new players and runs in empire space. That way you can mentor them in the importance of learning the stat skills so they train faster. Teach them to skill up implant and donate a few million to them to get +3 implants.. at less than half the price fo +4's and only one point difference they make a huge difference to new players training times and don't break the bank. The downside for new players isn't a slow training time it's a community that doesn't embrace them how many corps want only members with 10Million - 15 Million or more skill points at a minimum? It takes a year or more to get up to that point. Who want's to spend a year playing the game by themselves? That's why new players leave. A new player need guidance and they need to know that they're roles they can play in a pvp op that helps corp/alliance. Need a scout.. why not use the newb with no implants yet and flying a newb ship or T1 frigate.. if he gets blown up no big loss and you can supply him with 50-60 frigs for the price of a BC. Get him a few tackign skills and he's part of the action and feels important. It doesn't take long for a newb to get the cloaking skills, or cyno generation skills and how much fun would be to be a few months old and be the guy responsalbe for alowing captials to join the fight? I still rememer the first time I went running lvl 4 missions with a few corpmates on a lvl 4 mission and even though they were kill ships before they got into my poor cruisers combat range I was excited that was actually part of it. The same goes for my first pvp kill.. sure it was in a gang with 10 others and did little more than manage to not get myself killed. It was exciting to be included in the action and not told "oh you only have 4 Million skill points you can't join our corp."
Syberbolt8 Gallente The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.30 02:56:00 - [56] Ok, guess no one that is for this bothered to lookup my post on that other post, so here gos. New players don't need more skill points faster, this is the worst thing they could get in fact, it would put them in a position where they can fly a Battleship for example, so they will fly that battleship, not because they have to, but because its big and flashy and we all know bigger is better. (Bigger is not always better, just in case a new player reads this) Lets say a new player buys a 60 mil sp pilot, he has only played the 14 day free trial, now this 60 mil sp pilot is a very nice PVP speced pilot, and he finds me in a belt in a pvp fit BC, while he is in a hac, who will win? I will, end of story, first off not because I am some great master PVPer, in truth I would hardly call myself average, but because unlike this new player who has all the SP he needs to beat me, I have player skills, that he didn't get by learning from the start. I would also go as far to say that any pilot 5 to 8 months old would beat him fairly easy. From the other point of view, I can roll a new pilot and in less then a week kill almost any new player of the same age or possible 2 to 4 weeks older then my pilot just for lack of player skill, again anyone who has played the game for an extended amount of time should be able to fairly well do this. The biggest problem that new players have isn't the lack of skill points, its older players telling them to train there learning skills to 5 on basics and 4 on advance right from the get go, which is what the older players do with there alts to save time. New players need better player training not more sp that they wouldn't know how to use anyway, this extra sp they would get, would go wasted for the shear lack of knowing what to train and what to do with what is trained. So many new players are trying to get into the next best thing, in such a hurry they miss out on the important things you learn in frigs. This game is a cold place and the last thing we need is new player flying a battleship and it going pop because the new player could fit it in an effective manner, this is learned on the cruiser level, and at the point the game is at now, cruisers are almost skipped over for Battle cruisers. When they lose 2 or 3 100+ mil isk ships they quit because now the game is a job for them to mine, rat, mission run, ect just to afford ships they are nowhere near ready to fly, regardless of skills
Kekzanid	Posted - 2008.01.30 02:57:00 - [57] To get in a fully pvp fit sac or vaga for a new player in the space of 3 or 4 months is nigh impossible. Think of a vaga, Cruiser V, Med Wep V, Engineering V, Wep Upgrades V, Drones V, Mechanic V, etc. And you wouldn't have the engineering skills, the navigation skills, etc. to make the damn thing WORK. Then remember that maybe they put a couple of points in charisma. Maybe for 2 months they didn't have implants. Perhaps they thought they'd check out EWAR or a bit of Salvaging. Spent some time on mish running skills. A cloak sounds fun. You're talking 6-9 months, and you've still got plenty of people who would have said 'no, I wanna try ceptors for a bit'. Actually, TBH, I really have no idea where my skill time's gone. I'm getting tired of the persistent 'it would be soooo unfair'. No it's not. A tackled titan getting away cause of a node crash, that's unfair. Losing 50 BSes to a Doomsday inside your own POS, that's unfair. Losing a ship in a mission cause you didn't know about the remote armor drones 'feature' of summoning concord as they auto-repped a spawn, that's unfair. You've got isk, experience, and with my suggestion, you've got a skillpoint advantage that will never be breached. You've tried these ships out in the heat of battle, you know what 'travel mode' means on TS and that when someone says fit a MWD on your sniper BS, it's not a joke. You've got contacts, you've got intel channels that others don't know of. You know about grismar, battleclinic, evemon, EFT. You've got a corp in 0.0 if you so desire, you've probably even got a couple of alts running around that are paid for by that little niche or cushy research number you've made yourself (or you're a student/macrominer ;). Generally increasing the skill point accrual speed so Eve's not such a slog to get to different ships is a good suggestion, one that will give an advantage to old and new players. Why can't we ask for that? Especially because we can only have one character in training at a time. Hell, I'm not sure why I'm bothering, doubt they'll even read this, but I'm actually angry with the older players for their quite pathetic 'ZOMG unfair, boohoo'. Have you actually thought about this? You pay to play the game, not for skill points. Skill points are a timesink to keep you interested you dodos. They're loyalty points. It's the same as getting a full snake set. All I'm saying is slightly increase the 'drop frequency' (i.e. skillpoint accrual) cause they've damn well increased the number of available mods and high/med/low slots (skills). It's an artificial market control that CCP have introduced, yes it should be there, but it needn't be so damn boring. There's so much to choose from (skills and ships) and the available range has been increased dramatically but the amount of cash we get per month (skill points) ain't.
Kekzanid	Posted - 2008.01.30 03:18:00 - [58] Originally by: Syberbolt8 Ok, guess no one that is.... snip Soz, you posted this as I was writing mine. A good, well thought out post. You're right, damn right. They do need to learn the basics. But the prob isn't learning skills, it's that the skill balance is all wrong. And looking at your post has made me realise that. When you start the game you only need at most lvl 4 to get in different ships (frig - crusier - BC - BS) and different guns (small - med - large). It takes you a few weeks. And then it flips. You learn things really really fast and then all of a sudden it slowwwwwsssssss. You need lvl 5s for everything. So up the requirements for the low skills to lvl5s so they need to invest a bit of time to get cruisers/BCs/BSes, but double training speed (for everyone). Also shift the skills around a little so the route actually is frig -> cruiser -> BC -> BS. BCs should be a stepping stone, not a wild offshoot. Yep, they didn't used to be there, but they fit so perfectly. They made a mistake thinking that giving everyone 800k skillpoints was a fix to the original problem. They should have just increased training times across the board. But CCP are a bit stuck with it now. And doing away with the learning skills, yeah, probably. I mean, they're really quite useless in terms of actualy playing the game. They also need to add some charisma balance back in (no I don't have high chrisma, but I feel really, relly sorry for players who do).
Syberbolt8 Gallente The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.30 05:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Kekzanid Originally by: Syberbolt8 Ok, guess no one that is.... snip Soz, you posted this as I was writing mine.... snip This is where we both disagree, I think the skill system is fine, Player training needs to be improved, Help teach them to fit well what they have before stepping into the next ship class, this normally gets you ready for the next class ships. If you can fly frigs well, then you should be able to fly cruisers poorly but it wouldn't be the disaster it is when you jump straight into a cruiser and skip frigs, and can't fit a good setup for your life. Just my .02 isk though.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:19:00 - [60] Hmmm, at some point,( feks at 15 mill sp) a average character should be able to hold its own, as long as the character is spessed in one race. So faster skill training up to a point (maybe 10 mill then)should balance stuff out. It's great being Amarr isn't it. Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Arcord Gallente Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:04:00 - [61] Originally by: Dristra Hmmm, at some point,( feks at 15 mill sp) a average character should be able to hold its own, as long as the character is spessed in one race. So faster skill training up to a point (maybe 10 mill then)should balance stuff out. well...no why should a newbie jump right in a battleship or even worse in a T2 ship...??dont you think thats just wrong? i know that you guys wanna have as many ships available as possible...go play wow or any other game but not EVE...EVE is about long-time planning, patience and hard work- if you dont wanna accept that...goodbye i will not miss you skilling is just fine as it is now...leave it
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:32:00 - [62] Originally by: Arcord Originally by: Dristra Hmmm, at some point,( feks at 15 mill sp) a average character should be able to hold its own, as long as the character is spessed in one race. So faster skill training up to a point (maybe 10 mill then)should balance stuff out. well...no why should a newbie jump right in a battleship or even worse in a T2 ship...??dont you think thats just wrong? i know that you guys wanna have as many ships available as possible...go play wow or any other game but not EVE...EVE is about long-time planning, patience and hard work- if you dont wanna accept that...goodbye i will not miss you skilling is just fine as it is now...leave it Yes, going for T2 or BS straight is not good. Noobs need more 'support skills', those skills that are good on any ship, at least if they have a military career! With some useful but that look like secondary skills, you can make great things in a frigate. I prefer seeing noobs pwning all level 1 in a frigate while they have no cruiser prerequired skill yet than noobs going straight for cruisers. Its a better educative path. What I would really want is seeing noobs loosing less time in training basic learnings (give them at 4) and fly properly equiped and working frigates (give them more support skills) to get the money for the advanced while training non-learning skills in the meantime. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:24:00 - [63] (A) Capital ships are supposed to be long term far off goals. I think they're too accessible as it is (B) The difference between rank 4 and rank 5 of a skill is neglible, yet takes about four times as much to train. Just because someone has twice as many skill points as you doesn't mean they are twice as effective, especially if they've done any kind of crosstraining.
M3GATRON Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.01.30 19:06:00 - [64] i'de say 90% of a players sucess is thru planning and preperation and knowledge of the game not thru sp this belief and pre-ocupation with 10mio sp can pvp well 15mio sp can pvp well ... is ridiculous . experience can pvp well not sp if you want to be good at pvp then go out there and learn if you believe that youll only be able to do it once you have Xsp then youll never really get out there because there will always be one more skill to train or one more rank 5 .
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2008.01.30 19:11:00 - [65] Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 30/01/2008 19:11:18 Your idea sucks, because keeping new players is better done by getting them to realize how irrelevant skillpoints are in winning at EVE. _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/
Terraisa Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.30 19:26:00 - [66] Skill points are meaningless? After getting gunnery skills up to passable, it sure seems like ships in my Megathron's cross hairs go down a whole lot faster. Must be my imagination. Ill agree that SP are not everything but they do matter and the gap can seem daunting to new players. I maintain my opinion that getting rid of learning skills would remove a big obstacle from their path. Someone mentioned that eve is about patience. Thats true but before forcing players to be patient, the devs need to ask "how does this make the game more fun?" I'm willing to wait on new ships and abilities because the steady stream of new toys keeps things interesting and I enjoy planning my skills and the path I will take in the game. The learning skills however give you nothing but the ability to learn skills as fast as everyone else. Thats not much fun. I know you had to train them. I had to as well, and it wasn't any fun at all.
Red Harvest	Posted - 2008.01.30 21:57:00 - [67] I really dont like the idea of giving the newbs an easy ride just because they got into EVE later than others. TBH looking at the numbers of ppl online i couldnt care less for losing those who cant take the long training times.
Rezerwowy Pies	Posted - 2008.01.30 22:15:00 - [68] Edited by: Rezerwowy Pies on 30/01/2008 22:15:13 People pay money to get skills (training time takes... time). If noobs get training time faster, from where you get money to give back to rest of people which was paying for normal time to get skills from last 5 years?
Tarron Sarek Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.01.31 03:01:00 - [69] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 31/01/2008 03:03:53 Originally by: Waxau All the nubs ive 'raised' in eve have left due to the fact that they either dont like the pvp, or just find it slow to actually 'learn the ropes'. None have argued about their skillpoints. this isnt needed, nor wanted. QFT Oh, and of course Originally by: DigitalCommunist Your idea sucks, because keeping new players is better done by getting them to realize how irrelevant skillpoints are in winning at EVE. Thanks you two for anticipating what I also wanted to write down. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Mourn Navarre Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.02.05 15:15:00 - [70] Originally by: Terraisa Nichols Skill points are meaningless? After getting gunnery skills up to passable, it sure seems like ships in my Megathron's cross hairs go down a whole lot faster. Must be my imagination. I gave up my original character at 65M+ SP and I know most of those SPs were useless given alot of situations. If I happen to be in an interceptor or something similiar, the majority of those SPs are useless. And you can have all the SPs you want flying a megathron. All I need is to get a few successful target jams on you while my gangmates take you down. Originally by: Terraisa Nichols I maintain my opinion that getting rid of learning skills would remove a big obstacle from their path. I don't disagree there. It speeds things up too much. I don't believe it will ever happen however.
Mourn Navarre Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.02.05 15:19:00 - [71] Originally by: Ulstan (A) Capital ships are supposed to be long term far off goals. I think they're too accessible as it is slap upside the head It took my main character 4 months to train for a dreadnaught when they first came out. The only skill he did not have were those they just added to the game for the purposes of piloting capital ships. That was alot of training time wasted for a ship that is only good for two things. POS killing and killing other cap ships.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.02.05 15:35:00 - [72] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 31/01/2008 03:03:53 Originally by: Waxau All the nubs ive 'raised' in eve have left due to the fact that they either dont like the pvp, or just find it slow to actually 'learn the ropes'. None have argued about their skillpoints. this isnt needed, nor wanted. QFT Oh, and of course Originally by: DigitalCommunist Your idea sucks, because keeping new players is better done by getting them to realize how irrelevant skillpoints are in winning at EVE. Thanks you two for anticipating what I also wanted to write down. The victory and success are tied to few things : 1/ planning, may it be gang composition or fitting 2/ self control, don't mess while in the fight 3/ minimal SP, this is not the 10 or 15M SP... this is just having a bunch of cheap skills at level 3 or 4, level 5 are for T2, level 5 are for people who don't know what to train! I trained newbies that didn't know about some skills, you show them those, they spend 200k SP and then their ship works! Is that magic? No, it's just how cheap it is to have a balanced char that has all the skills linked to a domain at 3 instead of taking a few skills in that domain at 5, causing him severe weaknesses. All that is mostly linked to player teaching, not skills, badly spent SPs are useless! I have now close to 24M SP mostly focused on gallente-amarr cruisers and I can totally get pwned by much younger characters because my fittings can be wrong in many situations. SPs do nothing, it only allows me to fly high tech ships and break them! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Oniko Sengir The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.05 16:33:00 - [73] lol video
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.05 16:44:00 - [74] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn And learning skills are fine, they should NOT be removed. If all it takes is the simple concept of investing in the future by training these skills now to drive away players, then let those players leave. EVE is not for everyone, nor should it be, nor was it intended to be, nor does that say anything about the people who do leave. They are not fine, if you want to gain the maximum benifit out of learning skills you should spend your entire trial training just learning skills - instead of training skills that will increase the users enjoyment of the game. I think it is important for eve to give a good impression at the very start. Learning skills are very very grindy. Eve is a game, people play games to have fun. --
Ciara Daag Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.02.05 19:19:00 - [75] Originally by: Neuraxis Aeon Edited by: Neuraxis Aeon on 17/01/2008 07:08:15 I have been playing this game for a year and I have noticed is hard to keep new players interested in this game. Many people play for 3 months release they are so far behind and leave never to play again. Now if you want to get more people playing this game a solution need to be put in place because I donÆt see a lot of server growth. At peak on a Saturday the server is around 35000 players 30% those are likely alts, I think the population needs to be double that because at off peak times its hard to find good PvP battles. I think all skill training times should be + until you hit say 20mil or 15mil points. Now I know all the older players are complain about doing anything to help new players because they had to do it the hard way... blah blah. But wonÆt be much fun playing when the old players get to busy with life to play and there isnÆt enough new players income to keep the server population up. If something isnÆt done about this I think the game will just slowly die, itÆs already bad enough with a 3+ year gap between a new player and the avg player on the server. IÆm a 1 year old player and IÆm still looking at 2+ years before I can even think about fly a capital ships imagine how crap it is for new player starting this year. It has nothing to do with skill points. A new player can fit a t1 frig with a scrambler and a web and be effective in a battle. A slightly less new player can fit out many usefull configurations of cruisers. In many (most? well at least in mine) corps,cruisers for pvp are free,so theres really nothing to lose.
Yargo Metash Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.05 20:18:00 - [76] Learning skills should be left alone. Not because they're a big buffer, but because they are part of the training process of Player Skill. I remember back to my trial, with the overclogged noob help channel that I patiently watched and waited in, learning as much as from other's questions as my own. Then there was also the newb corp. I find that the REAL newb help channel is the corp channel. Sure it may have tons of people in it, half of them being alts, most of those alts being spies with the occasional macrominer or two, but in my experience it's a LOT more responsive than the help channel and 90% of my questions were answered. Including the oft-asked "What should I train for?" Invariably I got the standard "Train learning skills" but there were also a few people who said "Don't forget the other skills! Stagger them!" Or something along those lines. I used my head, took both bits of advise with a grain of sodium chloride and a can of Quafe and devised my own way, deciding what I wanted at what pace I wanted it. And I passed on that information to other newbs when they asked in corp. The demographic of EvE is noticably more mature in thinking than other MMO's (If not in text or actions sometimes ) than any of the korean grindfests or WoW. Point being, because I have run out of bacon to keep my mind from being tangental, the Learning skills do more than make higher tier skills train faster, and the smart newb knows not to jump into a cruiser without med guns. At least.
Maximillian Dragonard mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:01:00 - [77] Honestly, the thing that drew me to Eve was the idea that I could set long term plans. The current trend of "instant gratification" is doing a huge disservice to the game. The day you see 3-4 month old characters running around in t2 fitted hac's is the day I cancel my subscriptions. Sheesh, I remember starting in a frig.. and my first encounter with a level 2 mission.. my poor merlin got wtfpwnt. Did I quit/whine/demand changes? Nope, I said "well hell"... figured out what went wrong and moved along. Over the past 6 months, there has been a huge increase in the "request for change" dialog from newer players. This has yet to have a positive impact on gameplay, but has resulted in more whines from more new players because they never learn to fly and equip a ship properly before they jump into a new one One of the above posters suggested rolling back the level V skills given at character creation in favor of more level 2-3 skills. This would be a positive step imo, because those level V skills are pretty worthless to a new player. Probably the worst boost to skilling was the ability to generate a bloodline with frigate IV. With a few isk, they're flying a cruiser within hours, and naturally jump straight into BC's. I couldn't begin to count the number of horribly fit cruisers and bc's that I've seen. Bring back the NEED to fly that frig for a few days/weeks, the NEED to fly that cruiser for a month or 2, and the number of ship losses to new players would plummet, all the while allowing them to learn what they need to survive. Eve is about long term investing. It's not built for instant gratification, and changing it in that direction would break it beyond hope.
Aeyar Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:52:00 - [78] Originally by: Neuraxis Aeon Edited by: Neuraxis Aeon on 17/01/2008 07:08:15 I have been playing this game for a year and I have noticed is hard to keep new players interested in this game. Many people play for 3 months release they are so far behind and leave never to play again.... I think all skill training times should be + until you hit say 20mil or 15mil points. Yeah sure, and why not give every new char 3-4 bill isk aswell, so they get their first carrier on day 1...? I'm playing about a year + a couple months now and I can only disagree with you on this. You don't need 20mill or more sp to be able to beat older players in pvp, trade, mine or whatever you wanna do. You just can't fly the big stuff too soon. And as example, do you think you can afford to buy and lose ships like carriers in pvp with those super training times? I even hate when they gave new players 800k sp to start with... no one really needed that tbh (except for all the whiners used to their 1week-grinding-to-lvl-cap from other games). If you want a game where you got everything within a couple weeks or months then go play WoW or similar stupid grinding games imo. You either like Eve with the long learning curve and training times or you don't, thats how I see it. And yes, such a change also wouldn't be fair to all those that spent like 3+ years playing Eve. Training times are fine, period! Go train learning skills at the beginning if you want it faster! This idea is as stupid as the other one in a thread about a whole rollback to the "good old times"... that one was from an older player though. Anyway, whine on & good night

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