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Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
85
   |
Posted - 2012.02.12 02:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Or you know they could have addressed the fundamentals and made sure that large fleet fights aren't detremantal in any way to other players and done it properly IMO. Curious how you would address the problem of increasing scale. Let's say your answer is more nodes to achieve less systems per node: Without TiDi the nodes crash anyway under the same load, making TiDi a necessary component of this method of fix. Let's say your answer is 64 bit server codebase: OK we bring 6.8k people to a future fight and without TiDi the node crashes anyway. Let's say your answer is to disincentivize the formation of coalitions: OK now more fleet fights happen more often, making TiDi a necessity as it becomes probable that there will be saturation on multiple nodes instead of just one (or in extreme cases two). So I'm still wondering how TiDi is not a component of any valid fix you may come up with. I am, along with computer scientists everywhere, on pins and needles awaiting your response to the dilemmas created by increasing scale. You are ??? How about monotiring your nodes properly and reassigning to more robust structures under stress
You mean like they already do? Seriously, reinforced nodes (and the software to use them) have been a reality for years.
The simple fact is this: Without TiDi even a reinforced node is in serious trouble when module queues exceed the threshold at which the server can process them.
Meaning that no matter how robust a node is, that node has a breaking point. It's therefore only a matter of time before it is achieved by players. TiDi drastically changes that threshold in favor of the server.
It's necessary in any solution. It had to happen. HTFU. |
Soldarius
United Highsec Front
The 99 Percent
144
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 02:41:00 -
[62] - Quote
Quebber wrote:Those of us with balls who remember the IT fights and the NC/DRF fights, remember loading in to o2o and it taking 40+ mins for grid to load... TD is an amazing change. 1600+ people in OP9Z-I and it was possible to fight, thanks CCP
I was there in o2o. Confirming it took 10-20 minutes to lock titans. Another 10-20 for weapons to fire. Oops. ECM Burst. Start over. It got so bad that FCs called for subcaps to logoff in the hopes of reducing lag because we weren't getting anything done.
Even an hour after the fight was over you still couldn't log back in. Black screen.
TiDi is far and above the best thing CCP has done since I started this game 3 years ago.
"How do you kill that which has no life?" |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 02:45:00 -
[63] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Or you know they could have addressed the fundamentals and made sure that large fleet fights aren't detremantal in any way to other players and done it properly IMO. Curious how you would address the problem of increasing scale. Let's say your answer is more nodes to achieve less systems per node: Without TiDi the nodes crash anyway under the same load, making TiDi a necessary component of this method of fix. Let's say your answer is 64 bit server codebase: OK we bring 6.8k people to a future fight and without TiDi the node crashes anyway. Let's say your answer is to disincentivize the formation of coalitions: OK now more fleet fights happen more often, making TiDi a necessity as it becomes probable that there will be saturation on multiple nodes instead of just one (or in extreme cases two). So I'm still wondering how TiDi is not a component of any valid fix you may come up with. I am, along with computer scientists everywhere, on pins and needles awaiting your response to the dilemmas created by increasing scale. You are ??? How about monotiring your nodes properly and reassigning to more robust structures under stress You mean like they already do? Seriously, reinforced nodes (and the software to use them) have been a reality for years. The simple fact is this: Without TiDi even a reinforced node is in serious trouble when module queues exceed the threshold at which the server can process them. Meaning that no matter how robust a node is, that node has a breaking point. It's therefore only a matter of time before it is achieved by players. TiDi drastically changes that threshold in favor of the server. It's necessary in any solution. It had to happen. HTFU.
Nodes only fail because they do not have enough hardware assigned to them as far as I understand it
/edit or your attempting to do too much with your hardware. Also this doesn't change the arguement why should CCP not reassign uninvloved sytems from dilating nodes?
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Berke Negri
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 02:57:00 -
[64] - Quote
don't you guys understand the true INJUSTICE here of noted space captain, professor alphane, having to wait a few extra seconds for his modules to cycle while ratting so nearly 2,000 players could enjoy a simultaneous fleet fight in the same system with no lag |
Bel Amar
Lapse Of Sanity
Exhale.
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 03:03:00 -
[65] - Quote
Berke Negri wrote:so nearly 2,000 players could enjoy a simultaneous fleet fight in the same system with no lag
Same node, not same system...
|
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 03:12:00 -
[66] - Quote
Berke Negri wrote:don't you guys understand the true INJUSTICE here of noted space captain, professor alphane, having to wait a few extra seconds for his modules to cycle while ratting so nearly 2,000 players could enjoy a simultaneous fleet fight in the same system with no lag
Sloppy development is sloppy development as I see it, as stated earlier creating 'quick fix' and 'that'll do it, sort of..' programming usually comes round to bite your ass in the long run.
I've no objection's to you having your lolz, it's just one of my personal bug bears , CCP's slapdash approach to development while heavily investing in other projects that may never make $1.
Imagine what they could do if they didn't waste all there time and effort on projects that may never get of the ground and actually invested in solving the problems with EVE and developing new and exciting things for us to do.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
85
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 03:41:00 -
[67] - Quote
Berke Negri wrote:don't you guys understand the true INJUSTICE here of noted space captain, professor alphane, having to wait a few extra seconds for his modules to cycle while ratting so nearly 2,000 players could enjoy a simultaneous fleet fight in the same system with no lag
Professor:
Have some injustice with your injustice.
That way you can suffer while you suffer and cry while you cry.
I hope you keep posting this stuff.
How easy it must be to cry, "fix it!" How much harder to think of something that isn't idiotic to fix it.
I'm sure transitioning an entire system's worth of data across nodes, basically system-wide simultaneous session changes, would be a great solution during instances of extreme server lag! 
TiDi is necessary for any future combat against fleet fight lag.
No TiDi -> Cascade failure. |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 03:50:00 -
[68] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:I'm sure transitioning an entire system's worth of data across nodes, basically system-wide simultaneous session changes, would be a great solution during instances of extreme server lag!
Well maybe you could try session changing before you have maxed out your node, and one slight glitch in another system would be better than however long dilatedTiDi is necessary for any future combat against fleet fight lag. No TiDi -> Cascade failure.
Keep telling yourself that if you like, I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power.
Cascade Imminent
362
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 03:58:00 -
[69] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:
Keep telling yourself that if you like, I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry
beliefs don't have to be based on facts, as you've amply shown 'professor'. |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 03:59:00 -
[70] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:
Keep telling yourself that if you like, I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry
beliefs don't have to be based on facts, as you've amply shown 'professor'.
Please quote what I have said that isn't factual
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power.
Cascade Imminent
362
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 04:04:00 -
[71] - Quote
I just did. |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 04:07:00 -
[72] - Quote
Quote:I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry
If you are reffering to that statement you are in fact wrong I do believe that .... FACT
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Cipher Jones
299
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 04:41:00 -
[73] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:I was just a part of a fight that had 1700 people in local. The node was NOT reinforced and I had 10-15 second module lag. Things worked and the game did not break.
I've been playing this game since 2006. I've experienced the worst CCP code has to bring and this was the most amazing god damn thing ever.
The game worked. The game simply worked.
This post absolutely ******* amazes me. Why? Because when lag was at its worst, and I would say "What do you expect from a fight with so many people"? And I was told over and over and over that this lag did not happen prior to Apocrypha in fights just as large.
Eve players say whatever the **** they want whenever the **** they want and then change the story whenever the **** they see fit.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
85
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 04:48:00 -
[74] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Vile rat wrote:I was just a part of a fight that had 1700 people in local. The node was NOT reinforced and I had 10-15 second module lag. Things worked and the game did not break.
I've been playing this game since 2006. I've experienced the worst CCP code has to bring and this was the most amazing god damn thing ever.
The game worked. The game simply worked. This post absolutely ******* amazes me. Why? Because when lag was at its worst, and I would say "What do you expect from a fight with so many people"? And I was told over and over and over that this lag did not happen prior to Apocrypha in fights just as large. Eve players say whatever the **** they want whenever the **** they want and then change the story whenever the **** they see fit.
Confirming that straw man is still straw man. |
Cipher Jones
299
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 04:54:00 -
[75] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Vile rat wrote:I was just a part of a fight that had 1700 people in local. The node was NOT reinforced and I had 10-15 second module lag. Things worked and the game did not break.
I've been playing this game since 2006. I've experienced the worst CCP code has to bring and this was the most amazing god damn thing ever.
The game worked. The game simply worked. This post absolutely ******* amazes me. Why? Because when lag was at its worst, and I would say "What do you expect from a fight with so many people"? And I was told over and over and over that this lag did not happen prior to Apocrypha in fights just as large. Eve players say whatever the **** they want whenever the **** they want and then change the story whenever the **** they see fit. Confirming that straw man is still straw man.
I am not misrepresenting his position whatsoever. If the server was not lagging pre Apocryoha, then this time dilation cannot possible be "the most amazing god damn thing ever." If the server was lagging then, then everyone who said it wasn't is full of ****.
Two conditions in an argument can be true, but not 2 opposite conditions.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
85
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 04:57:00 -
[76] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Vile rat wrote:I was just a part of a fight that had 1700 people in local. The node was NOT reinforced and I had 10-15 second module lag. Things worked and the game did not break.
I've been playing this game since 2006. I've experienced the worst CCP code has to bring and this was the most amazing god damn thing ever.
The game worked. The game simply worked. This post absolutely ******* amazes me. Why? Because when lag was at its worst, and I would say "What do you expect from a fight with so many people"? And I was told over and over and over that this lag did not happen prior to Apocrypha in fights just as large. Eve players say whatever the **** they want whenever the **** they want and then change the story whenever the **** they see fit. Confirming that straw man is still straw man. I am not misrepresenting his position whatsoever. If the server was not lagging pre Apocryoha, then this time dilation cannot possible be "the most amazing god damn thing ever." If the server was lagging then, then everyone who said it wasn't is full of ****. Two conditions in an argument can be true, but not 2 opposite conditions.
You do misrepresent what he is saying. He is not saying there was no lag pre-apocrypha. Therefore this is a straw man argument. Nowhere in his statement does it say there was no lag pre-apocrypha. You admitted that is some **** you heard some other ******* players say at some point, allegedly, in your past experience.
Straw man is sill straw man. |
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 05:07:00 -
[77] - Quote
Oh no, you need to move a couple systems over, what a tragedy, whatever are you to do! |
Cipher Jones
300
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 05:07:00 -
[78] - Quote
Quote:He is not saying there was no lag pre-apocrypha.
He is saying that there was in fact lag.
I said "Eve players" in reply to Vile rat, not "you".
The people that changed their story are the ones absent from this thread, no longer saying the game was lag free in 2008 and before.
Maybe they were all just bitter vets who emoragequit?
And on the same note, he never came to my defense when people said the game didn't lag then. Neither did you.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power.
Cascade Imminent
366
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 05:11:00 -
[79] - Quote
Solinuas wrote:Oh no, you need to move a couple systems over, what a tragedy, whatever are you to do!
drone renters rent on a system-specific basis ;_; |
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 05:17:00 -
[80] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:drone renters rent on a system-specific basis ;_;
In that case, they deserve it anyway :P |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
677
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 05:21:00 -
[81] - Quote
The logical next steps for CCP are to:
a) Possibly make it so that systems are more likely to be hosted on the same node as other systems in the constellation. That way, when TiDi kicks in, it affects a constellation rather then some random system 20-30 jumps away. But that may also have some nasty side-effects for areas which are busier. But it might localize the issue and be more acceptable to the player base.
b) On the fly load-balancing. Unfortunately, from what I've read, CCP is a long ways off from being able to migrate systems between nodes on the fly, without kicking everyone who is connected to that system offline and forcing them to login again (or endure a session change). This is probably always 1-3 years away.
c) De-couple the clocks for systems on the same node. Right now, all systems running on the same node run in lock-step fashion. You can't have system A with 50% TiDi while system B on the same node runs at a different level of TiDi. Possibly closer to happening then option B, but still probably a year or more away from happening. It might let the not-so-overloaded systems run at a maximum of 50% TiDi while the system causing the issue runs at 10-20%.
d) Make it so that TiDi kicks in quickly, but evaporates slower then it does now. Perhaps even allowing the node to run 20% faster then normal as a way to make up for the lost time over the next few hours (meaning that players could then make 20% more per hour due to things happening 20% faster). |
Suitonia
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
45
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 05:40:00 -
[82] - Quote
The people bashing TiDi do realize that if TiDi was not in effect, they would just have black screen of death/huge module lag anyway? |
Berke Negri
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 06:14:00 -
[83] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Vile rat wrote:I was just a part of a fight that had 1700 people in local. The node was NOT reinforced and I had 10-15 second module lag. Things worked and the game did not break.
I've been playing this game since 2006. I've experienced the worst CCP code has to bring and this was the most amazing god damn thing ever.
The game worked. The game simply worked. This post absolutely ******* amazes me. Why? Because when lag was at its worst, and I would say "What do you expect from a fight with so many people"? And I was told over and over and over that this lag did not happen prior to Apocrypha in fights just as large. Eve players say whatever the **** they want whenever the **** they want and then change the story whenever the **** they see fit.
perhaps you should just quit eve online |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power.
Cascade Imminent
369
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 06:20:00 -
[84] - Quote
but if cipher leaves we'll be short of great well reasoned posts like "vile rat said lag for 1700-man fleet battles has never been better then now, that doesn't jibe with what a person posted 2-3 years ago whose name i can't recall or post i can't quote"? |
Berke Negri
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 06:22:00 -
[85] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:but if cipher leaves we'll be short of great well reasoned posts like "vile rat said lag for 1700-man fleet battles has never been better then now, that doesn't jibe with what a person posted 2-3 years ago whose name i can't recall or post i can't quote"?
of course lag has always been consistent over eight years, its not like dominion broke everything for close to two years before Team BFF started fixing things |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
86
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 06:24:00 -
[86] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:but if cipher leaves we'll be short of great well reasoned posts like "vile rat said lag for 1700-man fleet battles has never been better then now, that doesn't jibe with what a person posted 2-3 years ago whose name i can't recall or post i can't quote"?
Not to mention people who don't give two ***** about him not coming to his defense on an internet forum being his excuse for employing an emorage straw man argument against Eve players in general. I mean seriously, wtf is that I don't even... |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power.
Cascade Imminent
369
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 06:32:00 -
[87] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:The logical next steps for CCP are to:
a) Possibly make it so that systems are more likely to be hosted on the same node as other systems in the constellation. That way, when TiDi kicks in, it affects a constellation rather then some random system 20-30 jumps away. But that may also have some nasty side-effects for areas which are busier. But it might localize the issue and be more acceptable to the player base.
So, looking at this logically like you suggest CCP do, who would CCP consider the "player base", the 1800 players in a big fight or the 1-2 players ratting in a distant nullsec system. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries
Late Night Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 06:33:00 -
[88] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:Or as I say CCP could have improved there infastructure, or you know even come up with a solution that DOESN'T impact other players.
But NO being the 'lets try this and hope for the best' kinda outfit they are they didn't.
Also would be interested to know your source for your node assignemt assertion
All I know is that you are a complete idiot. |
baltec1
589
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 07:29:00 -
[89] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:
Thank you very much I'll be here all night
I see you have no idea that EVE runs on a supercomputer... |
Valei Khurelem
301
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 08:16:00 -
[90] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Or as I say CCP could have improved there infastructure, or you know even come up with a solution that DOESN'T impact other players.
But NO being the 'lets try this and hope for the best' kinda outfit they are they didn't.
Also would be interested to know your source for your node assignemt assertion All I know is that you are a complete idiot.
Sorry, but the only idiot here is you for not realising that time dilation is just a band aid over a problem that is going to continue to exist until the entire infrastructure of the internet is improved enough that people can actually play these kind of one server games properly and can transfer this amount of data.
That said to use lack of technology as an excuse for not trying to achieve something thought of as impossible is equally pathetic, I'd rather have a laggy bug filled game filled with fun than have to deal with a boring ass grindfest in a game just because some people don't want to deal with the issues it would bring.
"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP." -á - CCP Ytterbium |
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