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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Silvero
Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.20 06:55:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Verx Interis
Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance?
That's what I'm asking everyone else.
I don't fly a carrier. Never have, except on Armageddon Day. CCP could easily make carriers only able to fight, or take away their remote rep abilities, or something, but people are too used to using Carriers for whatever that is. That's the problem with changing Carriers.
There were no carriers available on the armageddon day, i was there and we where amazed about the battleships alone.
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Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.01.20 06:57:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Silvero
Originally by: Verx Interis
Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance?
That's what I'm asking everyone else.
I don't fly a carrier. Never have, except on Armageddon Day. CCP could easily make carriers only able to fight, or take away their remote rep abilities, or something, but people are too used to using Carriers for whatever that is. That's the problem with changing Carriers.
There were no carriers available on the armageddon day, i was there and we where amazed about the battleships alone.
The Armageddon day that happened in October. Remember? -----sig-starts-here------
Witty stuff goes here |
Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
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Posted - 2008.01.20 07:05:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 20/01/2008 06:49:35
Originally by: Calypso Rose
Originally by: Dirk Magnum What justification could there be for not allowing such a vessel to control regular drones?
Balance.
Then the universal counter to both carriers and motherships becomes the massed frigate gang. Stay out of smartbomb range and you're golden.
edit: well maybe not motherships. Obviously apart from the ewar immunity they can tank, what, 50-60,000 DPS for the better part of an hour? Someone said the Aeon can tank 75000 DPS against its armor.
A massed frigate gang would be a horrible counter. The number of frigates you'd need just to break the tank would be astronomical, and if the carrier wasn't alone you'd be a laughable threat to his buddies in a conventional fleet.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.01.20 07:10:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 20/01/2008 07:15:35 It may not be the quickest way to beat a carrier but if a carrier couldn't launch standard drones then the frigate gang would be 100% effective every time, unless of course the gang isn't big enough and the carrier tanks the damage indefinitely.
edit: actually I have what I think may be a better point to make. How does making the carrier useless against small ships fix the "problem" of versatility mentioned in the first post of the thread? Best case scenario is that the carrier kills all the cruisers and battleships its fighting, and then gets scrambled indefinitely by the frigates that its fighters can't effectively counter. Then one of two things happens: the carrier pilot logs in frustration and stops managing his tank, which the frigates then wear down to nothing, OR one side or the other deploys reinforcements to the site and either kills the carrier or kills the frigates.
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agent apple
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.20 07:24:00 -
[35]
Ill take that 6 carriers v 20 bs challenege. Please ensure your carriers are faction fitted and in place before posting on a ship you dont fly further.
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Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.01.20 07:24:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 20/01/2008 07:16:40 It may not be the quickest way to beat a carrier but if a carrier couldn't launch standard drones then the frigate gang would be 100% effective every time, unless of course the gang isn't big enough and the carrier tanks the damage indefinitely.
edit: actually I have what I think may be a better point to make. How does making the carrier useless against small ships fix the "problem" of versatility mentioned in the first post of the thread? Best case scenario is that the carrier kills all the cruisers and battleships its fighting, and then gets scrambled indefinitely by the frigates that its fighters can't effectively counter. Then one of two things happens: the carrier pilot logs in frustration and stops managing his tank, which the frigates then wear down to nothing, OR one side or the other deploys reinforcements to the site and either kills the carrier or kills the frigates. Then every fleet member everywhere can complain about how this process gets repeated every single time a carrier gets deployed, and it's wasting everyone's time.
That's what I asked the suggester of that idea in the first place...
Something where you have to "rig" your carrier to a certain role and it costs a lot to rig to another role might work. -----sig-starts-here------
Witty stuff goes here |
Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.01.20 07:26:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Verx Interis on 20/01/2008 07:26:41
Originally by: agent apple Ill take that 6 carriers v 20 bs challenege. Please ensure your carriers are faction fitted and in place before posting on a ship you dont fly further.
I did say that I didn't fly carriers in the OP, and that's why I asked other people. I'm simply using that as an example, as I've seen 6 carriers be dropped and kill 20 BS.
And, as I said, if the BS fleet is designed to kill carriers and break spidertanks, then it will win. If you specialize (hint hint) something, it should be superior.
Edit: Sorry for the double post I meant for this to be added to the post above. -----sig-starts-here------
Witty stuff goes here |
Silvero
Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.20 07:44:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Silvero on 20/01/2008 07:44:54
Originally by: Silvero
Originally by: Verx Interis
Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance?
That's what I'm asking everyone else.
I don't fly a carrier. Never have, except on Armageddon Day. CCP could easily make carriers only able to fight, or take away their remote rep abilities, or something, but people are too used to using Carriers for whatever that is. That's the problem with changing Carriers.
There were no carriers available on the armageddon day, i was there and we where amazed about the battleships alone.
Oki i tried to make a funnle about the last evening during beta thing but. So after reading your whinning here i understand that you are after a system where any pilot can beat any other pilot disregarding what equipment or ship the have, am i correct ? 6 pilots fielding 10bil of hardware shall never take down 20 pilots fielding bs's worth aprox 3bil. You want a more mano e mano thing, i mean after all there is unjust that some ppl have devoted time and yeah more time to get these hardware, if you take away the strife for better equipment well we can all just cancel our accounts because there whouldn't be any point of doing anything at all.
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Conrad Rock
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.01.20 07:45:00 -
[39]
Dev already said they would nerf fighters by reducing their scan resolution so as to not make them useful against cruiser sized ships, maybe even remove auto the aggro feature.
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Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.01.20 07:45:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Silvero
Originally by: Silvero
Originally by: Verx Interis
Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance?
That's what I'm asking everyone else.
I don't fly a carrier. Never have, except on Armageddon Day. CCP could easily make carriers only able to fight, or take away their remote rep abilities, or something, but people are too used to using Carriers for whatever that is. That's the problem with changing Carriers.
There were no carriers available on the armageddon day, i was there and we where amazed about the battleships alone.
Oki i tried to make a funnle about the last evening during beta thing but. So after reading your whinning here i understand that you are after a system where any pilot can beat any other pilot disregarding what equipment or ship the have am i correct. 6 pilots fielding 10bil of hardware shall never take down 20 bs worth aprox 3bil. You want a more mano e mano thing, i mean after all there is unjust that some ppl have devoted time and yeah more time to get these hardware, if you take away the strife for better equipment well we can all just cancel our accounts because there whouldn't be any point of doing anything at all.
Just because something costs more and takes more time to skill doesn't mean it should dominate in every situation..
And how was my post a whine? -----sig-starts-here------
Witty stuff goes here |
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.01.20 09:13:00 -
[41]
Carriers do have natural preditors, have you ever flown a heavy dictor? I do and trust me once you have a carrier locked down he aint going anywher(not to mention the heavy dictors insane tank which the carier wont break).
Carriers need a cyno to jump anywhere.
Thier "weapons" cost alot of isk and can be destroyed
Spider tanking wont help you sh1t when you get bumped out of remote repair range.
As a TRI member has offered fight him with 6 carriers vs 20 BS
Maybe you should try fly a carrier first before you ask for it to get nerfed it may have looked impresive when you saw 6 carriers being dropped on 20 BS but it doesnt always end like that, if those BS belonged to any decent cap ship killing alliance then the carrier pilots would be in for a very bad day.
Fly a ship first before you suggest people making changes to it. |
Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2008.01.20 09:26:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sinder Ohm Jedi do have natural preditors, have you ever trained a Master Pistoleer/Fencer? I do and trust me once you have a Jedi knocked down he aint going anywher(not to mention the Pistoleer/Fencer's insane dodge which the Jedi wont hit).
Their "weapons" cost alot of credits
Force Heal 3 wont help you sh1t when you get chased/kd'd out of a Doctor/combat medics stimpack range.
Maybe you should try and grind a Jedi first before you ask for it to get nerfed it may have looked impresive when you saw 6 Jedi being shuttled in on 20 riflemen but it doesnt always end like that, if those Riflemen belonged to any decent jedi killing alliance then the jedi would be in for a very bad day.
Play a Jedi first before you suggest people making changes to it.
The similarities I tell you!
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j4zz
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Posted - 2008.01.20 09:33:00 -
[43]
Edited by: j4zz on 20/01/2008 09:34:41
Originally by: Verx Interis stuff Originally by: Verx Interis
are u stupid or something , really dude u clearly never been in fight 20 bs vs 6 carriers, if tactics is right those 6 carriers will bite the dust very quick against bs fleet , really dude stfu and go whine about something u got a clue nub
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A wiseman
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2008.01.20 09:34:00 -
[44]
i'll support nerfing the carrier's combat ability when you can disable a bs weapons with smartbombs
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TheEndofTheWorld
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Posted - 2008.01.20 09:47:00 -
[45]
Edited by: TheEndofTheWorld on 20/01/2008 09:47:08 Edited by: TheEndofTheWorld on 20/01/2008 09:46:56 It is too easy, quick and effective to jump carriers into combat. Add a 15minute pvp delay, whenever a carrier jumps..
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.01.20 09:51:00 -
[46]
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Edited by: TheEndofTheWorld on 20/01/2008 09:47:08 Edited by: TheEndofTheWorld on 20/01/2008 09:46:56 It is too easy, quick and effective to jump carriers into combat. Add a 15minute pvp delay, whenever a carrier jumps..
If you cant warp your BS away (you should be aligned in the first place) by the time a carrier locks you, you shouldnt be in lowsec/0.0 in the first place.
*signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected]) |
Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.01.20 09:57:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
Originally by: Sinder Ohm Jedi do have natural preditors, have you ever trained a Master Pistoleer/Fencer? I do and trust me once you have a Jedi knocked down he aint going anywher(not to mention the Pistoleer/Fencer's insane dodge which the Jedi wont hit).
Their "weapons" cost alot of credits
Force Heal 3 wont help you sh1t when you get chased/kd'd out of a Doctor/combat medics stimpack range.
Maybe you should try and grind a Jedi first before you ask for it to get nerfed it may have looked impresive when you saw 6 Jedi being shuttled in on 20 riflemen but it doesnt always end like that, if those Riflemen belonged to any decent jedi killing alliance then the jedi would be in for a very bad day.
Play a Jedi first before you suggest people making changes to it.
The similarities I tell you!
I lol'd. Every single game: A is broken, so nerf B.
Originally by: Frug Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2008.01.20 11:14:00 -
[48]
I can't say how much of a fail OP and hisideas are...
If you can't kill carriers dropped onto your ass you either fail or your oponent was just better prepared which results in YOU FAIL again.
spider tank is really hard without target lock (ecm to speak ti out for the dumbest of the dumb). and the damage isnt THAT good. about twice as much as an as well skilled battleship pilot.
and I wonder if you would cry out too if I'd drop 6 domis used to work together and spider tank on your 20 noob-cruisers. it's the same here. domi has twice as dps, spidertank and about quad the tank (due to lar = 2*mar and better resists) while costing 10-20 as much as the cruiser.
you crybabies really get on my nerves. if you get jumped by capitals you cry "nerv!", if you get outnumbered you cry "blob!" if you get outsmarted by fitting xyz (be that ew, spidertank or even stupid simple dps) you cry "hax! nerv"...
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Tauranon
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.01.20 11:52:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Demarcus
Originally by: Kurando Inugami If you look at our own history, the Dreadnoughts and Battleships were obsolete by the time Carrier warfare was perfected, look at WW2.
If you look at history a dreadnought IS a battleship. The battleship Bismark and it's sister ship were both classed as dreadnoughts.
Since the carrier nerf I use my dreadnought as a hauler. Holds a ton more than the carrier. And they increased the carrier's ship bay so I think it balances out pretty well.
I don't think real life dreadnaughts are a good analogy for dreadnaughts in EVE.
Almost every battleship built after the HMS Dreadnaught itself, was classified as a Dreadnaught. All the term really means is a battleship that carries only 1 caliber of main weapon.
The point to dreadnaughts was by not having to spot 2 sizes of main weapons, it was easier to carry out long range gunnery. Incidently the all-big weapon layout, coincided with the introduction of turbines, which gave them other advantages (speed, more weight left for armor etc), which made them better at being battleships than pre-dreadnaughts.
The ingame dreadnaughts are like some sort of giant armored space trebuchet, that incidently throws a large enough rock to sink a battleship, should one get trapped in front of the rock.
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Victor Khisander
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Posted - 2008.01.20 11:57:00 -
[50]
So you want to tell me that after a year of patient training, paying(!) and working for the sake of flying a carrier you, who never used to fly such a ship, are going to show us a reason why this ship has to be nerfed? I stopped taking you serious as soon as you told us that you have absolutely no idea how it is to be in a carrier. This ship has never been considered to be a full scale combat ship, this fact has never been proven wrong in the past. Take a closer look at the bonuses and you will realise, that those ships are made to SUPPORT their fleet and NOT to be the main damage dealing source. There is no chance that this ship alone will ever outdamage a well configured fleet of BSs or even BCs if those people know what they are doing.
You on the other side belong clearly to those kind of people, who lack both the will to adapt AND the brainpower to use what is available, in a way that it can be called "effective". But i wonŠt hold you back in your effort to prove yourself a pathetic human beeing, unwilling to overcome your own weaknesses. Nerf us as much as you will, your lack of knowledge and willpower will allways fail and cannot be buffed by as many nerfs as you can think.
Want some cheese to your whine?
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Hirokishi
Gallente Delta-Fr
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Posted - 2008.01.20 12:14:00 -
[51]
Carriers online ? I'd rather say this is Calimero online...
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Beth Dei
Gallente 242nd Front
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Posted - 2008.01.20 12:17:00 -
[52]
There are many clearly defined roles for the carriers, the problem is most of them suck and are only done because CCP makes us. Destructible station services, for instance. They add ever so slight dimension to roaming gangs, and hours of repping work for the defenders. And POS warfare. Jesus. Show me someone who enjoys the current mechanics.
Because of the overall sovereignty system, capitals are a requirement to compete. Without them, you're screwed. If you're going to drop 2-3B ISK on a ship, would you rather have something you can use once every few weeks, or something that has some day to day application? Yeah. This is why there's lots of carriers.
CCP cannot have it both ways. Either they want these massive engagements involving hundreds of people (if perhaps not all in the same system), with skirmishes mandated by POSes/Outposts/Supercapitals/etc, or they want small gangs and capitals to be rare.
BS/BC is not a very appropriate comparison to BS/Carrier. It's more akin to BS/Frigate. I am not trying to be insulting at all when I say this, however, I don't think you really know what you're talking about. How often do you deal with capitals, either against them or with them?
Disclaimer: I haven't been in a capital ship yet. I have shot at a few and people I associate with use them a lot, however.
Nothing I've said here is original, others have said these things far more eloquently in the past. No new arguments are being made by either 'side', it seems. Everyone just knows they're right. I just hope CCP will perhaps see that the problem isn't necessary with the ships or the pilots, but the mechanics behind their use. Un**** POSes and sovereignty and perhaps the problem will fix itself.
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Stella Sinn
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.01.20 12:24:00 -
[53]
And to think CCP wants to reduce build cost *LAWL*
---- Durka Durka! |
Kvaell
Minmatar Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.20 12:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Sinder Ohm Carriers do have natural preditors, have you ever flown a heavy dictor? I do and trust me once you have a carrier locked down he aint going anywher(not to mention the heavy dictors insane tank which the carier wont break).
I haven't got a carrier and would agree that carriers do die rather quickly although +10 of them are a pain in the behind, when you can't send your own in (They create massive lag too)
For the HIC vs Carrier: Wouldn't it be possible for the carrier to use ECM drones and jam you and flee? He should have enough of them to make that within a minute or two to create that jam get away.
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astowv
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.20 12:39:00 -
[55]
I think we should nerf carriers. They should only be able to tank a frig. They cant fight, no drones. They should be able to use 2 small shield transfers at lvl5, and then, wait, i think you can bump stuff with them. Make them smaller so they cant do that either. And in fact, just make them INSTAPOP whenever Verx enters local.
Do the same with dreads, that way they aint versatile at all.
WTFBBQJIZUZCHRISTWHINE. Want some cheese ?
----
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Nooto
Panta-Rhei Phoenix Allianz
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Posted - 2008.01.20 12:59:00 -
[56]
omg someone got kille by a carrier and now the ships must be nerved. shut the **** up if ya never flew a carrier in regular ops. man i'll never understand why such noobs cry around about ships they never used in ops. it's like omfg!!!!!1111elevenone nerv teacher they gave me too much homework
go away troll play with your lovely bantam in a 1.0 and dont cry about the big ships.
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Sunabi
Caldari Defiance Corp Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.20 13:04:00 -
[57]
Carriers are good at everything - how about we just double the price?
Yeah, I just bought one
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Zarin
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Posted - 2008.01.20 13:09:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Verx Interis I say no. Not capitals online. Carriers online.
Most people probably already know this. Carriers are too versatile. If you disagree, then go look at what people use Carriers for and come back.
Since trinity I don't use my carrier at all... They already hit it with the nerfbat of crappiness. It can't haul anymore so the only time to take it out is to pew pew things, which it doesn't do really any better than a BS.
You do realise that now a carrier is capable of hauling about 10,000m3, less with long range fuel. Pretty much, get a rorqual, jump freighter or even a standard hauler and go the old fashioned way, it will be infinitely qicker.
So they have taken away the ability of carriers to haul cargo, I think that has pretty much settled the issue.
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Hohne
Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.20 13:31:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Verx Interis
Originally by: Roman legionnaire's You do know that carriesr can no longer haul anything really. since the hauler nerf. SO all carriers can do now is pretty much combat
Still, their in-combat versatility is.. big.
It's too effective a tactic to drop 6 carriers on an enemy fleet of 20 or so BS.
If you are setup for anti-carrier a fleet of 20 can take down 6 carriers without breaking too much of a sweat. Remember when they jump in they have 29% cap (at max skills). It doesn't take very much to break that and damps + ECM stops them from remote repping, add a little Nos/Neut combo and they will go down like a sack of bricks. They are really not that good, it's mostly fear that causes people to run. 1vs1 a carrier will die to a BS if the BS is setup right. And you think fighters can actually track cruisers ? Heavies or even Meds work alot better. Fighters even have trouble tracking BS's that are moving at a pace. (albeit they still do 'some' damage, just not as much as heavies would).
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Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.20 13:37:00 -
[60]
OMG SWISS ARMY KNIFE!
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