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Kiiikoooloool	Posted - 2008.01.20 13:48:00 - [61] Edited by: Kiiikoooloool on 20/01/2008 13:50:06 It would be interesting if carriers were designed for a smarter use than dps disher. In real life, carriers are used to project firewoper. How i imagine a use for them? - Less drones damage, not more than 2 dominix - the carrier should carry a HUGE amount of fitted frigs (assault, interceptors, bombers, electronic attack frigs, covert ops...) - the mother ship should do the same as the carrier but be able to send more T2 cruisers. - pilots are able to respawn, upgrade clone and jumpclone in the carrier. - the carrier should give bonuses to frigs linked with it. How to use this? Well players are docked in the carrier, the carrier jump, then the players undock a T2 frig from it. If the player get poded in action, respawn back in the carrier, upgrade the clone and go again. The different racial carriers should give bonus to - caldari > ewar frigs - gallente > dunno, maybe assault frigs - minmatar > interceptors ? - amarr > bombers my 2 isks Imagine the hell of a carrier in a nearby system sending wolf packs, wave after wave.
Skjorta	Posted - 2008.01.20 14:52:00 - [62] Edited by: Skjorta on 20/01/2008 14:52:24 Omg, nerf battleships too because they can remote rep, have drones, put out dps, and tank. Well pretty much all ship classes, since they can be used in different ways...and that's just heresy. Carriers are part of the front line capital force, designed to go into ship to ship combat. That means dps, tank, and remote rep...just like every other smart sub cap fleet. It can do it better than a BS, sure, and it damn well should, but it's by no means invincible like you proclaim them too be.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.20 15:09:00 - [63] Originally by: Dirk Magnum On whose paper do dreads look like solopwn machines? Everyone and their mom can look at capital weapon tracking speeds and realize they can't hit subcapital ships effectively. The drone bonus on the Moros is good but it still won't put out truly lethal DPS against a group of opponents. Maybe carrier versatility is a good thing Why does every ship need a narrowly defined role? Carrier pilots train so long to use them they should be rewarded with something useful. Funny, a Moros well trained does from Ogre's II more dps than most carriers do with fighters out. I think someone calculated 1600 DPS from a Thanatos with 15 fighters, and Gall Carrier 5 with Fighters 5. A moros does 1100 DPS with just 5 Ogre's II. Then you add the blasters, because despite having the guns with the smallest range of the close-range persuasion, Gallente also have the ones with the best tracking, so that if you manage to put a Moros within 20km of it's target, and have it triple webbed, your gonna pop it in 2 volley's. Then again, the same is true for the other dreads. :)
Ovek Gallente Cosmic Fusion When Fat Kids Attack	Posted - 2008.01.20 15:12:00 - [64] Capital ships have always been a stupid concept. Bring back normal combat.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.01.20 16:21:00 - [65] Originally by: Verx Interis Something where you have to "rig" your carrier to a certain role and it costs a lot to rig to another role might work. This seems like a fair idea. Much better than simply nerfing the carrier into nothing more than an anti-battleship thing. Originally by: Setana Manoro Funny, a Moros well trained does from Ogre's II more dps than most carriers do with fighters out. I think someone calculated 1600 DPS from a Thanatos with 15 fighters, and Gall Carrier 5 with Fighters 5. A moros does 1100 DPS with just 5 Ogre's II. Then you add the blasters, because despite having the guns with the smallest range of the close-range persuasion, Gallente also have the ones with the best tracking, so that if you manage to put a Moros within 20km of it's target, and have it triple webbed, your gonna pop it in 2 volley's. Then again, the same is true for the other dreads. :) But a solo dread won't have three webifiers fitted. Even if it did, most of its enemies would still have falloff from outside of web range. The 1100 DPS figure of Ogre II's with max skills may be accurate, but not against smaller, faster ships that can outpace the drone. Presumably the interceptor tacklers can clear off aggressing Ogre II's from the larger ships in the fleet, if the larger ships can't already do the job with smartbombs and drones of their own. That said the Moros is the best dread in terms of self-defense. Nobody can really argue that.
Malarki X Caldari Ad Astra Vexillum Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.20 16:45:00 - [66] Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance? That's what I'm asking everyone else. I don't fly a carrier. Never have, except on Armageddon Day. CCP could easily make carriers only able to fight, or take away their remote rep abilities, or something, but people are too used to using Carriers for whatever that is. That's the problem with changing Carriers. And here we have a good insight from a carrier pilot ... I say we should nerf Titans ! They can make jump bridges and use Doomsday - clearly one of these has to go ! Never used a Titan, never will, but it is clear I have good grasp on the matter ... LOL
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.01.20 17:56:00 - [67] Okay I need to clarify something. One: I was not killed by a carrier recently. I just had a thought, after someone mentioned captials online. Here is how I know carriers need to be changed: People use them whenever possible, because they can do almost anything. This is in game, not on paper. People with dreads only use theirs when they're shooting a POS or station, with a few exceptions. Yes, I know that 20 battleships specifically designed to kill carriers will kill them. I said that several times. But 20 battleships that aren't expecting it will have problems. Yes, I could beat 6 carriers with 20 BS. But it wouldn't do as well against 20 other BS desgined to kill BS. As for warping out when the Carriers drop in, a few tackling Interceptors or a good Interdictor pilot will keep the BS from running away. All I asked for is a discussion, not that carriers be nerfed. I'm seeing in game that carriers are used way more than any other capital ship, and in some cases, as much as battleships. Imagine if Dreadnoughts didn't lose all that tracking and could move in siege mode. Do you think that would be good? -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:17:00 - [68] Originally by: Victor Khisander So you want to tell me that after a year of holocron grinding, paying(!) and working for the sake of becoming a jedi knight you, who never used to play such a profession, are going to show us a reason why this profession has to be nerfed? I stopped taking you serious as soon as you told us that you have absolutely no idea how it is to be a Jedi. This profession has never been considered to be a full scale combat class, this fact has never been proven wrong in the past. Take a closer look at the bonuses and you will realise, that those players are made to SUPPORT their squad and NOT to be the main damage dealing source. There is no chance that this class alone will ever outdamage a well configured fleet of Teras Kasi or even Master Fencers if those people know what they are doing. You on the other side belong clearly to those kind of people, who lack both the will to adapt AND the brainpower to use what is available, in a way that it can be called "effective". But i won¦t hold you back in your effort to prove yourself a pathetic human beeing, unwilling to overcome your own weaknesses. Nerf us as much as you will, your lack of knowledge and willpower will allways fail and cannot be buffed by as many nerfs as you can think. Want some cheese to your whine? For added comedic value never insult some ones intelligence on the internet without running spell check first if people don't understand that capitals = jedi yet then I'm doing something wrong
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:31:00 - [69] Originally by: Skjorta Edited by: Skjorta on 20/01/2008 14:52:24 Omg, nerf combat medics too because they can use area stims, use mind poison, and tank. Well pretty much all professions, since they can be used in different ways...and that's just heresy. Jedi are part of the front line raiding force, designed to go into man to man combat. That means dps, tank, and healing...just like every other smart non jedi squad. It can do it better than a Combat Medic, sure, and it damn well should, but it's by no means invincible like you proclaim them too be.
Kiiikoooloool	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:34:00 - [70] Edited by: Kiiikoooloool on 20/01/2008 18:34:08 the game you speak of isn't dead yet ? maybe it is a symptom of a critical issue
Aram Thracius Amarr Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:40:00 - [71] Originally by: Amarria Black A is broken, so nerf B. quoted for truth and weren't they nerfed once already ? btw, if you need logistics get a jump freighter or 3 Aram Thracius - Eve University
Shan Juan Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:47:00 - [72] Take those dreads you only use for POS shooting and drop them on the carriers instead of whining for nerfs.
Khanid Kutie I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:49:00 - [73] Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance? nothing, he's just whining...like most people do these days
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:59:00 - [74] Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance? I don't fly a carrier. Never have... That's your problem. Talking about something you have no clue about. Carrier is a solo-pwnmobile? Ridiculous. A lone carrier in 0.0 is dead meat, and with the HIC same in low sec. Killing fighters is not such a difficult task if you know what you are doing. And then the carrier is quite defenceless, won't you think so? Or do you really suggest that you should fight 1-vs-1 with a non-capital ship against capital ships and win?! Your so called analysis is completely wrong, so any conclusions are not based on reasoning there. If you want to make a real analysis say what exactly is imbalanced and how: for example that the gallente carrier can do xxx dps and has yyy tank and weakness a,b,c and so on. THAT would be an analysis. Just saying that "Most people probably already know this. Carriers are too versatile.", "Carriers can do a lot of things very well..." and "Too many people use Carriers in all the possible ways..." are just rabble-talk and stupid commonplaces without any thought. If that is all your 'analysis' then this thread better gets locked. "We see Carriers dropped on groups of battleships..." So? You get pwnd and don't know how to fight carriers and now want carriers to be nerfed? Maybe instead get some better anti-carrier support! "The BS outnumber the carriers almost 4 to 1, and lose." Support ships? Flying around in BS only maybe not the best idea? Lacking some good FleetCommanders maybe? The brute force approach is not always the most successful one...
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.01.20 19:12:00 - [75] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance? I don't fly a carrier. Never have... That's your problem. Talking about something you have no clue about. Jedi is a solo-pwnmobile? Ridiculous. A lone rebel jedi knight in theed is dead meat, and with the Master Teraskasi/Fencer same in Coronet. Using KD's and mind poison is not such a difficult task if you know what you are doing. And then the Jedi is quite defenceless, won't you think so? Or do you really suggest that you should fight 1-vs-1 with a Master Rifleman against a Jedi Knight and win?! Your so called analysis is completely wrong, so any conclusions are not based on reasoning there. If you want to make a real analysis say what exactly is imbalanced and how: for example that the Jedi Knight can do xxx dps and has yyy tank and weakness a,b,c and so on. THAT would be an analysis. Just saying that "Most people probably already know this. Jedi are too versatile.", "Jedi can do a lot of things very well..." and "Too many people use Carriers in all the possible ways..." are just rabble-talk and stupid commonplaces without any thought. If that is all your 'analysis' then this thread better gets locked. "We see Jedi Shuttled in on groups of riflemen..." So? You get pwnd and don't know how to fight Jedi and now want Jedi to be nerfed? Maybe instead train fencer or teras kasi! "The Riflemen outnumber the Jedi almost 4 to 1, and lose." Support classes? Training in Rifles and carbines only maybe not the best idea? Lacking some good Squad Leaders maybe? The brute force approach is not always the most successful one...
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.01.20 19:21:00 - [76] Edited by: Verx Interis on 20/01/2008 19:22:35 Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance? I don't fly a carrier. Never have... That's your problem. Talking about something you have no clue about. Carrier is a solo-pwnmobile? Ridiculous. A lone carrier in 0.0 is dead meat, and with the HIC same in low sec. Killing fighters is not such a difficult task if you know what you are doing. And then the carrier is quite defenceless, won't you think so? Or do you really suggest that you should fight 1-vs-1 with a non-capital ship against capital ships and win?! Your so called analysis is completely wrong, so any conclusions are not based on reasoning there. If you want to make a real analysis say what exactly is imbalanced and how: for example that the gallente carrier can do xxx dps and has yyy tank and weakness a,b,c and so on. THAT would be an analysis. Just saying that "Most people probably already know this. Carriers are too versatile.", "Carriers can do a lot of things very well..." and "Too many people use Carriers in all the possible ways..." are just rabble-talk and stupid commonplaces without any thought. If that is all your 'analysis' then this thread better gets locked. "We see Carriers dropped on groups of battleships..." So? You get pwnd and don't know how to fight carriers and now want carriers to be nerfed? Maybe instead get some better anti-carrier support! "The BS outnumber the carriers almost 4 to 1, and lose." Support ships? Flying around in BS only maybe not the best idea? Lacking some good FleetCommanders maybe? The brute force approach is not always the most successful one... Please tell me where I said carriers are a solopwnmobile. Yes you have some theories of things, how to fight carriers. But the fact is, in game, I see people dropping carriers on enemy fleets and it works. Otherwise people wouldn't do it. In game, I see people using Carriers for a lot of things. I only made claims of what I had seen in game. I was asking other people, people who do fly carriers, how they thought carriers should be changed. But it seems that the self interest of having such a powerful vessel overrides the ability to see that it must be changed. It is very clear CCP is going to change Carriers. If people can't agree on what to change, CCP will just take away everything, or do something that everyone disagrees with. Originally by: Shan Juan Take those dreads you only use for POS shooting and drop them on the carriers instead of whining for nerfs. As I've asked, what made this whining? Is pointing out that a change is imminent whining? CCP already changed Carriers hauling ability, and the only reason they can still use 15 fighters solo is because people whined against that change. Something is going to change. -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.20 19:41:00 - [77] are we back in 2007? Trashed sig, Shark was here
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.01.20 20:49:00 - [78] Originally by: SiJira are we back in 2007? Huh? -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:07:00 - [79] Well the way things are looking, another year or so and carriers will be the standard for every pilot. Instead of pirates camping gates in battleships, you'll see 20 blinky carriers sitting on the gate ready to put the smack down on your hauler.
Orb Lati Minmatar Cold-Fury Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:11:00 - [80] If any thing the only reason every body says that Carriers are to effective or unbalances is because Dreadnoughts are so uneffective. I would love dreadnoughts to have a role in fleet combat. Give them a flak (or missile smart bomb) area effect weapon and use them to disburse blobs. "We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible"
NeoTheo Caldari Species 5618 Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:14:00 - [81] Originally by: Demarcus Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Roman legionnaire's You do know that carriesr can no longer haul anything really. since the hauler nerf. SO all carriers can do now is pretty much combat Still, their in-combat versatility is.. big. It's too effective a tactic to drop 6 carriers on an enemy fleet of 20 or so BS. So? The BS shouldn't have a problem getting away, or calling in support. Keep them ecm'd take out the fighters then work on them 1 by 1. yes good luck on ECM'ing 6 carriers, not having the fighters/drones auto agress the ECM ship and BBQ the f*** out of it in SECONDS. carriers need a nerf, sorry its VERY TRUE. for the record, i have a alt who can fly them, they are OP and need nerfing.
NeoTheo Caldari Species 5618 Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:17:00 - [82] Edited by: NeoTheo on 20/01/2008 21:17:02 just to re affirm my post with something usefull, i would have it so that once a ship Cyno's in it CAN NOT agress or lock anything for 30 seconds (or deploy drones). this way hot dropping dissapears and carriers are used as a strategic tool, not a hot drop and BBQ weapon. (id also do the same for any player logging in, IE you cant undock for 30 seconds, just to stop the LOGONSKI traps.) /Theo.
Kiiikoooloool	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:31:00 - [83] Originally by: Orb Lati If any thing the only reason every body says that Carriers are to effective or unbalances is because Dreadnoughts are so uneffective. I would love dreadnoughts to have a role in fleet combat. Give them a flak (or missile smart bomb) area effect weapon and use them to disburse blobs. Flak guns, yeah!!! Barrage artillery and so on. Great idea
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.01.20 22:38:00 - [84] Originally by: Orb Lati If any thing the only reason every body says that Carriers are to effective or unbalances is because Dreadnoughts are so uneffective. I would love dreadnoughts to have a role in fleet combat. Give them a flak (or missile smart bomb) area effect weapon and use them to disburse blobs. Actually, I think this would be very interesting. Capital flak cannon.. Sounds cool. -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.01.20 22:43:00 - [85] Edited by: Verx Interis on 20/01/2008 22:43:39 Originally by: NeoTheo Originally by: Demarcus Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Roman legionnaire's You do know that carriesr can no longer haul anything really. since the hauler nerf. SO all carriers can do now is pretty much combat Still, their in-combat versatility is.. big. It's too effective a tactic to drop 6 carriers on an enemy fleet of 20 or so BS. So? The BS shouldn't have a problem getting away, or calling in support. Keep them ecm'd take out the fighters then work on them 1 by 1. yes good luck on ECM'ing 6 carriers, not having the fighters/drones auto agress the ECM ship and BBQ the f*** out of it in SECONDS. carriers need a nerf, sorry its VERY TRUE. for the record, i have a alt who can fly them, they are OP and need nerfing. Big point. It'll take the BS at least 6 seconds to lock the Carriers if they get them as soon as they jump in, and by then the Carriers will have drones out to auto-aggro. Then even if there's more jammers the fighters will go on rampages killing things. Edit: Once again, forgot to edit this into the first post.. I fail at the edit button. -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.01.20 22:55:00 - [86] Originally by: Kiiikoooloool Originally by: Orb Lati If any thing the only reason every body says that Carriers are to effective or unbalances is because Dreadnoughts are so uneffective. I would love dreadnoughts to have a role in fleet combat. Give them a flak (or missile smart bomb) area effect weapon and use them to disburse blobs. Flak guns, yeah!!! Barrage artillery and so on. Great idea The idea is to stop alpha ships from dominating
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.01.20 23:03:00 - [87] Originally by: Kruel Well the way things are looking, another year or so and carriers will be the standard for every pilot. Instead of pirates camping gates in battleships, you'll see 20 blinky carriers sitting on the gate ready to put the smack down on your hauler. I'll believe it when I see it. There's enough carriers in circulation now that if they made such great gatecamping ships we'd see them used as such already. I'm constantly going around low sec and never see this. Sure it happens once in a while, but it usually ends with a post in C&P about how some idiot in a carrier got scrammed at a gate and killed by pirates.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.01.20 23:07:00 - [88] One thing I think CCP should do to limit capitals in the game is prohibit character trading. Currently, capital characters don't leave the game when their players get tired of it, but get sold and the ISK from them passed on to mates, or gets transferred to friends. If character trading was not allowed, there would only be the capital characters in game who'd earned the right to fly them by training a year or more for it. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.01.20 23:08:00 - [89] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Kruel Well the way things are looking, another year or so and carriers will be the standard for every pilot. Instead of pirates camping gates in battleships, you'll see 20 blinky carriers sitting on the gate ready to put the smack down on your hauler. I'll believe it when I see it. There's enough carriers in circulation now that if they made such great gatecamping ships we'd see them used as such already. I'm constantly going around low sec and never see this. Sure it happens once in a while, but it usually ends with a post in C&P about how some idiot in a carrier got scrammed at a gate and killed by pirates. /set autopilot rancer also I'm pretty sure carrier kill threads are dead
Ryan Scouse'UK omen. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.20 23:15:00 - [90] how about get a carrier & join them or stop the whine.. really I am sick to death of the changes CCP keep making to EVE they have already nearly killed the joy out of this game already.. stop making them change the game even more..

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