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Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.01.20 23:38:00 - [91] Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK how about get a carrier & join them or stop the whine.. really I am sick to death of the changes CCP keep making to EVE they have already nearly killed the joy out of this game already.. stop making them change the game even more.. That's my point, CCP is going to nerf Carriers to death unless we can agree on what we want them to do, but nobody can, as you can see here. -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
Draeca federation navy taskforce	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:02:00 - [92] Originally by: Orb Lati Give them a flak (or missile smart bomb) area effect weapon and use them to disburse blobs. Anyone remember those cinematics in Homeworld 2 where the Dread in obliterates a small fleet of fighters before firing it's main weapon on that frig or destroyer? Something like that would be awesome. A Moros with flak blasters, firing a thick barrage of antimatter towards the enemy frigblob..
sanctimoniousness	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:09:00 - [93] Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK how about get a carrier & join them or stop the whine.. really I am sick to death of the changes CCP keep making to EVE they have already nearly killed the joy out of this game already.. stop making them change the game even more.. So in otherwords; Hi newplayers, STFU for 1 whole year until you can fly a carrier, then you can play eve. Kthxbai. I don't like change, and I'm sick to death of change. Even if something is horribly broken, lets not change it. Because change sucks amiright? Seriously. FACTS speak louder than OPINIONS.
sanctimoniousness	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:19:00 - [94] Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Calypso Rose Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance? Limit carriers to launching only fighters, no regular drones. Not that I necessarily disagree, but what would that do exactly? At least make the carriers use a support fleet, instead of dropping onto any midsized fleet and forcing a full retreat or destroying them. Carriers should be on the front lines of the battlefield, but they should need support. They require space holding corporations to build, they are the fruits of the efforts of a group of players, they should therefore supplement groups of players, i.e. be part of a mixed fleet, not 6 carriers and a cyno-alt.
Concordokken Plox	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:22:00 - [95] Originally by: sanctimoniousness They require space holding corporations to build Hi, last time I checked, I can build a carrier in low-sec.
Troye Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:24:00 - [96] Originally by: sanctimoniousness Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Calypso Rose Originally by: Zeba So what do you propose CCP do to fix this imbalance? Limit carriers to launching only fighters, no regular drones. Not that I necessarily disagree, but what would that do exactly? At least make the carriers use a support fleet, instead of dropping onto any midsized fleet and forcing a full retreat or destroying them. Carriers should be on the front lines of the battlefield, but they should need support. They require space holding corporations to build, they are the fruits of the efforts of a group of players, they should therefore supplement groups of players, i.e. be part of a mixed fleet, not 6 carriers and a cyno-alt. I'm a carrier pilot myself and this seems the most logical "balance", as people have said their problem is they can own any size of ship. It dosnt realy make sense from abackstory sense though, how do you explain a huge drone boat being able to use advanced fighters but not simple Ogres or Hammerheads? _______________________________________ "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...Even if you win, you're still ******. "
Troye Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:28:00 - [97] Originally by: sanctimoniousness So in otherwords; Hi newplayers, STFU for 1 whole year until you can fly a carrier, then you can play eve. Kthxbai. Seriously. FACTS speak louder than OPINIONS. I waited 2 years before I got in a carrier, I wouldnt consider the time I spent traing for it as "not playing EVE". Part of the joy of EVE is it's long term payoff, if you want instant gratification wow is that way ---> Seriously. Do you know what your talking about? _______________________________________ "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...Even if you win, you're still ******. "
sanctimoniousness	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:32:00 - [98] Originally by: Concordokken Plox Originally by: sanctimoniousness They require space holding corporations to build Hi, last time I checked, I can build a carrier in low-sec. Last time I checked, POS's can be seiged. When I say 'space holding' I mean a corporation that can defend their space, not soverignity.
Dr Paithos Minmatar Republic Deep Space Institute	Posted - 2008.01.21 01:07:00 - [99] Originally by: sanctimoniousness Originally by: Concordokken Plox Originally by: sanctimoniousness They require space holding corporations to build Hi, last time I checked, I can build a carrier in low-sec. Last time I checked, POS's can be seiged. When I say 'space holding' I mean a corporation that can defend their space, not soverignity. er you can build caps in npc stations unless something has dramatically changed anyway nice troll op a++

CCP Mitnal	Posted - 2008.01.21 01:43:00 - [100] Cleaned. Please remember that pyramid quoting is considered spam and subject to warnings. When quoting someone use relevant quote(s) only and remove the excess. Thank you. Mitnal, Community Representative EVE Online CCP Games Email/Netfang

Gyle Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.01.21 02:56:00 - [101] Edited by: Gyle on 21/01/2008 03:00:31 Originally by: Verx Interis I say no. Not capitals online. Carriers online. Most people probably already know this. Carriers are too versatile. If you disagree, then go look at what people use Carriers for and come back. Most Dreadnought pilots don't take their dreads out unless they're shooting a POS because that's the only thing dreads can do well. CCP did a good job at making their damage potential useless in most situations. On paper, Dreads look like solopwnmobiles. 3k DPS, massive tank? But nope, you can't hit anything that decides to move one bit. Titans can't really do much... And they're logistical nightmares, and they can't dock, and they cost loads. However, Carriers are different. The versatility of droneboats carries over and gets injected with steroids. Carriers can do a lot of things very well, with little penalties to the other things. I have no idea what Carriers were supposed to be. People use them for so much that the original idea was lost. The problem with fixing them is that people use them for so much. What exactly should they do? What can the Carrier pilots of Eve agree on, if that's even possible? If carriers can't haul as much, POS logistics become a huge issue. That's a completely different problem. POS suck in almost every way. Fixing that is something different. Take away Carrier's combat abilities, and they can't fight, which is obviously important. Too many people use them to fight for that. Too many people use Carriers in all the possible ways for it to be easy to give them a specific role. People are going to have to agree on something. Seeing as this is Eve, and adding to that, the Eve Forums, I really doubt that will happen. Then CCP will just wrench Carriers into nerfdom and make the forums explode for about 5 weeks because Carriers will be useless because nobody could figure out what everyone could agree on, so they just made everyone angry. Poorly constructed argument. You obviously missed the 300 pages of forum outrage where everyone already put these points to bed. BTW Dread pilots come out on most capital ops these days since they are very good at shooting at other caps, not to mention they can be excellent anti-BS if you know what your doing. I suggest you need more experiance in and around capitals. If you had you would know that all it takes is one arazu to completly disable a carrier. PS this should probably be in the development forum
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.01.21 04:35:00 - [102] Originally by: Gyle Poorly constructed argument. You obviously missed the 300 pages of forum outrage where everyone already put these points to bed. BTW Dread pilots come out on most capital ops these days since they are very good at shooting at other caps, not to mention they can be excellent anti-BS if you know what your doing. I suggest you need more experiance in and around capitals. If you had you would know that all it takes is one arazu to completly disable a carrier. PS this should probably be in the development forum Carriers are very excellent anti-BS without having to know what you're doing. And since damps changed, I doubt one Arazu can disable a carrier. The fact is, in game, Carriers are used way more than other capitals, for many different roles. Are you trying to say you don't see that? Or are you playing a different game? -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.01.21 04:41:00 - [103] waa waa waa i dont have a carrier and everyone else does.
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.01.21 04:49:00 - [104] Originally by: Steve Hawkings waa waa waa i dont have a carrier and everyone else does. Can I ask where I said I wanted a Carrier? I'd rather not have a Carrier, mostly because it seems everyone else has one. I didn't even suggest anything that would let me get a Carrier any faster than normal.. -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii	Posted - 2008.01.21 05:02:00 - [105] Edited by: Wylker on 21/01/2008 05:02:56 Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Steve Hawkings waa waa waa i dont have a carrier and everyone else does. Can I ask where I said I wanted a Carrier? I'd rather not have a Carrier, mostly because it seems everyone else has one. I didn't even suggest anything that would let me get a Carrier any faster than normal.. Well you're basically beating the same incorrect argument over and over then when someone tries to explain to you why you're wrong you just say "no thats not right". For example: One Arazu can very easily knock a carrier down to a lock range of about 18km. Or it could make a carrier take an hour to target a cruiser. A single Falcon basically ruins any carrier's day. Carriers can easily be tackled and killed by a few battleships. The biggest problem with carriers is everyone that doesn't know what the hell they are talking about whining over and over on eve-o. By the way, you missed a 900 page thread about this around 4 months ago that people at CCP actually cared about. Try eve-search you still may be able to post there. You may want to read it first though so you can see why your OP is stupid. Heres a ninja edit for you: The only place where carriers/moms are a massive problem is when you have 300 of them in once place. And that has nothing to do with the design of the ships. That is about the cluster's inability to deal with it. The only other POSSIBLE issue is with massive spidertanks, but that problem is pretty easily solved with ECM.
Arctic Monkey Caldari Leinenkugel's Honey Weiss	Posted - 2008.01.21 05:04:00 - [106] Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Demarcus Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Roman legionnaire's You do know that carriesr can no longer haul anything really. since the hauler nerf. SO all carriers can do now is pretty much combat Still, their in-combat versatility is.. big. It's too effective a tactic to drop 6 carriers on an enemy fleet of 20 or so BS. So? The BS shouldn't have a problem getting away, or calling in support. Keep them ecm'd take out the fighters then work on them 1 by 1. In theory. But we see Carriers dropped on groups of battleships, and it works. So apparently, the theoretical anti-Carrier attack doesn't work. The tactic of dropping carriers on a BS fleet is a valid tactic. Why not use superior fire power when you are able to. Carriers take a lot longer to train for and should be superior to BS's. There has been enough nerfing of the carriers we don't need more. There has to be some incentive to fly them.
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.01.21 05:23:00 - [107] Originally by: Arctic Monkey Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Demarcus Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Roman legionnaire's You do know that carriesr can no longer haul anything really. since the hauler nerf. SO all carriers can do now is pretty much combat Still, their in-combat versatility is.. big. It's too effective a tactic to drop 6 carriers on an enemy fleet of 20 or so BS. So? The BS shouldn't have a problem getting away, or calling in support. Keep them ecm'd take out the fighters then work on them 1 by 1. In theory. But we see Carriers dropped on groups of battleships, and it works. So apparently, the theoretical anti-Carrier attack doesn't work. The tactic of dropping carriers on a BS fleet is a valid tactic. Why not use superior fire power when you are able to. Carriers take a lot longer to train for and should be superior to BS's. There has been enough nerfing of the carriers we don't need more. There has to be some incentive to fly them. What nerfing? So they can't haul anymore. That's all I can think of. CCP is going to nerf them more, whether or not you like it. Someone has to figure out what would be the best way to do it ot everyone is going to be annoyed. -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
Mr TriX Gallente The Collective	Posted - 2008.01.21 10:03:00 - [108] Warning: Experienced carrier pilot I will start off with saying it is a reward to spend all the time and isk to fly a carrier. I will also say I have been flying a carrier for over 3 months now and I still have yet to use it enough to recoup the time and money I spent on it. Let me be the first to say with any good experience, carriers can't "do it all". They can pretend to, but dropping 6 carriers on anything is a large risk unless you have decent support for them. I will also say that yes they are effective against the average battleship fleet, I have been in many gangs where we have successfully killed carriers with ships smaller then battleships. With very little losses I will add. A recent event where we bumped a carrier over 45km away from his 6+ other carriers to kill him. The reason we took very little losses is because the other carriers could not launch fighters because we quickly dispatched them with our HACs/etc. We even jammed several of carriers to prevent them remote repping. Damps are highly effective against carriers in lock time alone. Well tanked BS with smartbombs can easily distract fighters/drones while ECM ships jam them. I've had more success killing capital ships while in BS and hac gangs than with using my carrier. If anything I think carrier damage should be increased. Being able to dish out only a little more damage than dps battleship and costing 10+ times more? Add to that a few small ships can render my carrier DPS Null. Sure I can carry 200+ light-heavy drones. But you put a damp/ecm on me and start killing drones I then have no control over what or who they attack. If you get locked when my carrier is damped you simply warp out and back in and you get another 2 minutes of free time while I try to lock you if its even possible. As for ship maintainance bay. Thats not very useful itself unles your using carriers to bring battleships and other ships to a remote location for restocking. I have never seen or heard of anyone flying upto a carrier in battle to grab a new ship. Your pod would never last that long. A boost to fighter damage and a little more reduction to tracking to make the dps vrs battleships similar, yet the damage to capital ships greatly enhanced. Then carriers would be much better used in fleet combat of killing other carriers. Reducing the effect of "Carriers Online". I agree carriers are used to much. But the majority of them that use them loose them by stupidity. Flying around solo hauling. Mining in belts. Camping gates with few support. Rightly so they lose them. Maybe while boosting carrier damage vrs capitals, you could increase carrier cost a little to reduce the amount of them in game. One other change could be to somehow make dreads more able to counter carriers. Isn't their jump range less then carriers? (I haven't trained for dread). So to review, carriers are very vulnerable without support or large number of carriers. They cost alot and don't do all that much damage for their size/class. They are versatile yes, but at great risk. They could use a boost in damage and cost to build. Their ability to kill frigates is still limited by the max speed of light drones. Cruiser class ships have no problems killing fighters/drones and losses are expected - Its a carrier after all! Cost of loosing all fighters vs loosing a few cruisers very similar. Hope this sheds some light on this topic from someone who hardly ever gets a chance to use his carrier.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.01.21 17:40:00 - [109] OP, your entire post is just utter garbage. 1> You don't fly a Carrier. Please STFU about something you are't qualified to discuss. 2> CCP nerfed the hauling ability, and while you may not think that was important it totally destroyed the Logistics Carrier. 3> The simplistic proposals you suggest were hammered so far up CCP's ass that they are still trying to get them out. BTW: ZuluPark is that you? 4> Should a further nerf occur, the only 'accepted' solution proposed so far is the Super-Rig idea for things like Ship Maint bays, extra Fighters, etc. Read 'Features and Ideas' sometime. 5> Even if there is a further nerf, there needs to be some ability to maintain/enhance current abilities. For example, I'd gladly trade Ship Maint Bay and Corp Hangar for more Fighters or immunity to EW. 6> Most of all, you are discounting the YEARS of training needed to be a good Carrier pilot, and forgetting that it can all crash down on you because of one Warp Scrambiling Frig.
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.01.21 18:57:00 - [110] Carriers have already been nerfed the prices of carries and dread is comming down so soon everybody will have them are they usefull yes , are the amazingly usefull no , will they change the world (o0) yah ... why ? because every single carrier fight i have been on has been two things Long - exciting i personnally have never seen a better pvp engagement than carrier fights because you got time to think to adapt to maneuver to employ so many features of this game offence defence logistics maneuver all in one fight no 10 mins then it's over it can got for over an hour , now im not going to say the op has no idea but honestly you gotta see it , fly it and fight it before you can comment/judge * *
Lelulie Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.21 19:10:00 - [111] Edited by: Lelulie on 21/01/2008 19:13:18 Originally by: Dirk Magnum The drone bonus on the Moros is good but it still won't put out truly lethal DPS against a group of opponents. 900dps Ogre IIs, 500dps Hammerhead IIs, 300dps Hobgoblin IIs isn't lethal? ------------------------------------
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.01.21 19:20:00 - [112] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 21/01/2008 19:21:14 Originally by: Lelulie Edited by: Lelulie on 21/01/2008 19:13:18 Originally by: Dirk Magnum The drone bonus on the Moros is good but it still won't put out truly lethal DPS against a group of opponents. 900dps Ogre IIs, 500dps Hammerhead IIs, 300dps Hobgoblin IIs isn't lethal? Not against a smartbombing battleship being protected by both drones and supporting interceptors. Even with added HP the Moros's drones are going to get killed before they destroy all of the Moros's attackers. I probably should have clarified in my original post that the Moros is fully capable of defending itself against an ill-prepared or undermanned gang, and obviously it has a huge tank and effective HP level, but when it's drones are dead that's it. Barring it's having multiple webifiers fitted and an opponent who stays in web range, the capital turrets aren't going to be a factor in a fight against sub-caps. edit: and I won't post in this thread any more if someone can point me to even a single killboard entry of a solo dreadnought owning a gang of sub-caps.
Buxaroo Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.21 19:21:00 - [113] Originally by: Mr TriX Warning: Experienced carrier pilot I will start off with saying it is a reward to spend all the time and isk to fly a carrier. I will also say I have been flying a carrier for over 3 months now and I still have yet to use it enough to recoup the time and money I spent on it. Let me be the first to say with any good experience, carriers can't "do it all". They can pretend to, but dropping 6 carriers on anything is a large risk unless you have decent support for them. I will also say that yes they are effective against the average battleship fleet, I have been in many gangs where we have successfully killed carriers with ships smaller then battleships. With very little losses I will add. A recent event where we bumped a carrier over 45km away from his 6+ other carriers to kill him. The reason we took very little losses is because the other carriers could not launch fighters because we quickly dispatched them with our HACs/etc. We even jammed several of carriers to prevent them remote repping. Damps are highly effective against carriers in lock time alone. Well tanked BS with smartbombs can easily distract fighters/drones while ECM ships jam them. I've had more success killing capital ships while in BS and hac gangs than with using my carrier. If anything I think carrier damage should be increased. Being able to dish out only a little more damage than dps battleship and costing 10+ times more? Add to that a few small ships can render my carrier DPS Null. Sure I can carry 200+ light-heavy drones. But you put a damp/ecm on me and start killing drones I then have no control over what or who they attack. If you get locked when my carrier is damped you simply warp out and back in and you get another 2 minutes of free time while I try to lock you if its even possible. As for ship maintainance bay. Thats not very useful itself unles your using carriers to bring battleships and other ships to a remote location for restocking. I have never seen or heard of anyone flying upto a carrier in battle to grab a new ship. Your pod would never last that long. A boost to fighter damage and a little more reduction to tracking to make the dps vrs battleships similar, yet the damage to capital ships greatly enhanced. Then carriers would be much better used in fleet combat of killing other carriers. Reducing the effect of "Carriers Online". I agree carriers are used to much. But the majority of them that use them loose them by stupidity. Flying around solo hauling. Mining in belts. Camping gates with few support. Rightly so they lose them. Maybe while boosting carrier damage vrs capitals, you could increase carrier cost a little to reduce the amount of them in game. One other change could be to somehow make dreads more able to counter carriers. Isn't their jump range less then carriers? (I haven't trained for dread). So to review, carriers are very vulnerable without support or large number of carriers. They cost alot and don't do all that much damage for their size/class. They are versatile yes, but at great risk. They could use a boost in damage and cost to build. Their ability to kill frigates is still limited by the max speed of light drones. Cruiser class ships have no problems killing fighters/drones and losses are expected - Its a carrier after all! Cost of loosing all fighters vs loosing a few cruisers very similar. Hope this sheds some light on this topic from someone who hardly ever gets a chance to use his carrier. Shaddup you, logic has no place in this thread
Xilimyth Derlin The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.21 19:29:00 - [114] Couldn't this just be as simple as: Step 1) Remove Carrier's ability to launch standard drones Step 2) Create 2 more variants of fighters for Anti-Frigates/Cruiser Anti-Battlecruiser/Battleship combat (still taking up the fighter's space though) Step 3) ??? Step 4) Profit? The Carrier then makes some sacrifice for loading up for 'small ship combat' but no longer has near-endless waves of em. (Oubviously having the fighters be better armored then standard drones)
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.21 19:36:00 - [115] Originally by: sanctimoniousness So in otherwords; Hi newplayers, STFU for 1 whole year until you can fly a carrier, then you can play eve. Hi, I have been in the game for over a year and have yet to step into a carrier, whoops there goes your argument. Love to the Assault Frigate!
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.01.21 19:37:00 - [116] Originally by: Dirk Magnum edit: and I won't post in this thread any more if someone can point me to even a single killboard entry of a solo dreadnought owning a gang of sub-caps. bye * *
Howling Jinn Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.	Posted - 2008.01.21 20:21:00 - [117] Originally by: Dirtee Girl Originally by: Dirk Magnum edit: and I won't post in this thread any more if someone can point me to even a single killboard entry of a solo dreadnought owning a gang of sub-caps. bye how hard is it to read? that dread is not solo..
Blade Bleed	Posted - 2008.01.21 20:48:00 - [118] Op, you have no flippin clue what your talking about.
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research	Posted - 2008.01.21 21:15:00 - [119] Can Dreadnoughts not kill Carriers then? Because that's what I always thought I'd do with one. _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa or Itamo to join!
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.21 21:54:00 - [120] Given even a remotely lag-free enviroment, support fleets will crunch carriers. RSDs and ECM to break the remote rep circle jerk, bump the carriers out of range, apply DPS and repeat.

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