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Does the shuttle take off?

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Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 20:31:00 - [61] Originally by: Gealbhan The shuttle would crash and burn on the treadmill. Heat! The wheels spinning on the treadmill would cause a % of friction heat to the tyres and bearings, depending on stress load they'd get hot enough to bust the tyres and cease the bearings. The whole undercarriage would the crumble and the shuttle would take a high speed nose dive into the treadmill = BOOM. By your reasoning one could also say that: The shuttle wouldn't lift since there is not a treadmill in the world large enough. The shuttle wouldn't lift since no pilot would have the balls to pilot it. The shuttle wouldn't lift since no gouvernment in the world would finance such a project. What is wrong with you? This is obviously a theoretical question.
Kao Lei	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:51:00 - [62] The real question is: if there is no lift generated for the plane because the threadmill is turning equally fast.... what would happen when the plane suddenly shuts its engine off... will it fly backwards?
Zor Chayne Hedion University	Posted - 2008.01.26 14:28:00 - [63] Edited by: Zor Chayne on 26/01/2008 14:28:46 Originally by: Cpt Fina By your reasoning one could also say that: The shuttle wouldn't lift since there is not a treadmill in the world large enough. The shuttle wouldn't lift since no pilot would have the balls to pilot it. The shuttle wouldn't lift since no gouvernment in the world would finance such a project. What is wrong with you? This is obviously a theoretical question. Yes it is a theoretical question, but not for the crazyass reasons you've just quoted. From the responses I'm getting, I'm still not sure if the plane/shuttle would take off. -- :(
Plave Okice Gallente Red.	Posted - 2008.01.26 14:57:00 - [64] Awooga! Red Vs Blue
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.26 15:30:00 - [65] Originally by: Zor Chayne Yes it is a theoretical question, but not for the crazyass reasons you've just quoted. From the responses I'm getting, I'm still not sure if the plane/shuttle would take off. Yes you are but that's not what you're after. You just like to keep this thing going....
Zor Chayne Hedion University	Posted - 2008.01.26 16:22:00 - [66] Originally by: Detrol Yes you are but that's not what you're after. You just like to keep this thing going.... please don't troll serious threads, thanks. -- :(
Xavier Iblis	Posted - 2008.01.26 17:34:00 - [67] The one base assumption is that this shuttle provides constant thrust unto infinity. If there was a cap on its thrust, a treadmill could be built to accommodate such a cap. Since that's not very interesting, assume that the shuttle can provide constant thrust. In order for the shuttle to not take off while on top of a treadmill the following must be true: Perfect treadmill: No energy is lost to friction between the runner lane and the internal wheels. Perfect wheels: No energy is lost to friction as the wheels spin against their axles, on the shuttle. Perfect Wheel/Treadmill Interaction: There is high enough friction coefficient such that as there is a perfect correlation between the wheels and the treadmill. AKA, all of the thrust of the shuttle is matched by an equal reaction in the treadmill. Thrust to Wheel Force Interaction: The shuttle must be built in such a way that 100% of its thrust is applied directly to the weight of the wheels. Which would mean the shuttle's center of gravity would need to be between the wheels. All surfaces must be infinitely durable: And not break under the excessive strain being applied to them. If any of these situations did not happen, some of the thrust would be turned to forward velocity. Considering you pick and choose where friction is being applied and make very naive assumptions about the design of the shuttle, it is not likely to happen. What would actually happen: The Engine would start and begin to apply force to the shuttle. The shuttle would move forward until the friction of the wheels and the treadmill managed to counter balance. Depending on the impulse and resultant velocity, aerodynamics and lift factor, this by itself could be enough to allow it to take off. Assuming it doesn't, there would be energy loss as the wheels spun, the treadmill spun, and the wheels and treadmill interacted. You have force being applied to the wheels and treadmill by the friction interaction between them making it want to spin and force being applied by the axles, trying to stop them from spinning. Eventually the coefficient of friction would be exceeded and the shuttle would begin skidding forward. Assuming constant thrust, this would eventually let the shuttle skid forward till it managed to gain lift. What would be implied if the theoretical "shuttle cannot take off" situation were true: As the treadmill and wheels continue to spin and increase their speed, their speed would approach the speed of light and a localized time-dilation effect would ensue. This opens up a huge can of worms involving relativistic physics. Anyone who wants to take a stab at that, be my guest.
Zor Chaine	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:06:00 - [68] Originally by: Xavier Iblis As the treadmill and wheels continue to spin and increase their speed, their speed would approach the speed of light and a localized time-dilation effect would ensue. This opens up a huge can of worms involving relativistic physics. haha, now kids, this post is a great example of what happens if somebody without a clue watches too much sci fi. wow. just wow.
Avery Fatwallet	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:06:00 - [69] Edited by: Avery Fatwallet on 26/01/2008 18:11:23 Originally by: Zor Chaine I have a minmatar shuttle that acts like an airplane in the atmosphere. If the shuttle is sitting on a treadmill and fires up it's engines, it needs to reach take off speed the same as a plane to get off the ground. With the shuttle's wheels turning on the treadmill, does it ever take off? i cant believe its a 3 page thread. (well it HAS been answered on the first page) thrusters generate... well... thrust, you can completely neglect the wheels and the treadmill. (well ofc friction would very very marginally slow down the shuttle, but meh, lets neglect it, its really no biggie) only question is: will the treadmill be long enough, or will the shuttle fall off the end before it reaches take off speed? but! if you made the treadmill go REALLY REALLY REALLY fast, maybe youd change the airflow below any wings? but that is not what that little "riddle" is about. edit: my vote to thread winner goes to "african or european shuttle" post
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:13:00 - [70] Originally by: Skanque H'Or http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060203.html I can't believe he's comparing this junk to the monty hall problem, which is actually a real brain twister. This is high school physics, and not at all brain twisting. He's right about it being worded badly though. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Karentaki Gallente federation navy taskforce	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:33:00 - [71] Edited by: Karentaki on 26/01/2008 18:35:29 The question has been answered many times... the treadmill would have to be going a lot faster than the plane in order for it to have any serious impact on the speed of the plane - this would probably result in the bearings on the wheels melting. Originally by: Zor Chaine Originally by: Xavier Iblis As the treadmill and wheels continue to spin and increase their speed, their speed would approach the speed of light and a localized time-dilation effect would ensue. This opens up a huge can of worms involving relativistic physics. haha, now kids, this post is a great example of what happens if somebody without a clue watches too much sci fi. wow. just wow. You are the one without a clue. As any object approaches the speed of light its mass increases exponentially (mass=infinity when the speed of light is reached) - This results in more and more energy being required to give the same increase in speed. In addition to this, time, as viewed from within the high-speed object, slows down as speed increases. I am unsure as to what would actually happen in this situation, but if the extra mass generates gravity, then it would eventually result in the formation of a small black hole. Of course, the energy required to approach these kinds of speeds is ridiculously large, and we could never provide anywhere near enough, so the point is moot until we can find a way of converting mass directly into energy (fusion possibly). EDIT: Click here for more info on special relativity ======
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:52:00 - [72] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 24/01/2008 20:22:51 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire i also see that machine guns can be fired in space. Its possible to fire machine guns in space really, you just have to inject oxygen into the chamber at the same time the pin hits. It has to be custom modified, so you can't just go get a spacesuit and an uzi and expect it to work :P Lies. There is an oxidizing agent in ALL gunpowders. This is why they can combust so rapidly in a very confined space. Learn to chemistry, noob. As for the shuttle, if the treadmill is as long or longer than the standard runway it would require to take off, then it will take off assuming that it has sufficient thrust to overcome the friction forces in the wheel bearings. Also, perhaps I missed it, but no one said that the plane was trying to fly the opposite direction of the treadmill.
Ealthor Amarr Veyr	Posted - 2008.01.26 19:01:00 - [73] There are multiple situations (all situations assume perfect grip): 1) The wheels and treadmill are free to roll, frictionless. The treadmill only gains speed by interaction with items on it. 2) The treadmill is controlled in some way, the speed is adjusted to attempt to stop the shuttle from taking off. 3) Or, its not a frictionless system and the treadmill is free to roll, with no external forcing. 4) Situation 3, but factor in friction as well. In situation 1) The shuttle's engines provide a thrust, they propel air and exhaust backwards at great speed which in turn causes a force on the engine and thus the shuttle in the opposite direction. If we assume the wheels are frictionless this means that none (zero, nada) of that thrust is transferred into a shear force on the treadmill. This means that the plane will simple roll over the treadmill and the treadmill will not move at all. (Because the movement of the treadmill in this example is caused only by transferral or force from the wheels to the treadmill in the form of shear on the surface of the treadmill, with no friction there is none of this shear and thus no movement of the treadmill). Additionally, where the shuttle to apply the brakes (introducing a large frictional force) at this time THEN the treadmill will start to move, but in the direction of the shuttles movement (the wheels would lock, and the treadmill would roll instead, with a perfect transfer of forces between the two) Situation 2) In this situation the shuttle would, once again propel its self forwards, and due to the frictionless wheels there would be no effect on the shuttle, as shear force from the treadmill would be converted into a radial motion of the wheels (the force is at a tangent to the circular wheels, resulting in perfect transfer) but with no friction between the wheels and the plane there would be no possibility of that radial velocity being converted into a force on the plane. Situation 3) In this situation the introduction of friction into the wheel joints and the treadmill rollers makes it somewhat more complicated. However, if we assume that the treadmill works as a set of rollers under a surface we can then assume that the sum friction of the rollers in the treadmill will be greater than the sum friction of the wheels on the shuttle (simply due to larger numbers of similar mechanisms). Therefore the shear force transferred to the treadmill will be insufficient to overcome the friction in the mechanism (as the shear force transferred is proportional to the friction in the wheels, and the resultant velocity of the treadmill in this situation would be completely damped out by its far larger frictional forces. Situation 4) There is a bit more ambiguity here, while the above points hold true again, where the treadmill to be propelled extremely fast it would be possible to transfer enough shear force through the wheels (due to their frictioned bearings) to balance out the force from the engines, however such a speed would inevitably result in a LARGER shear force being applied to the air above the treadmill, this would propel the air above the treadmill backwards at great speeds, speeds large enough to achieve a take off lift for a shuttle with aero foiled wings. So it would then take off (and promptly crash as it left the fast moving air around the treadmill) I think that about covers it.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.01.27 10:27:00 - [74] Originally by: Zor Chayne From the responses I'm getting, I'm still not sure if the plane/shuttle would take off. Which is the part you don't understand?
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.27 10:28:00 - [75] Originally by: Zor Chayne Originally by: Detrol Yes you are but that's not what you're after. You just like to keep this thing going.... please don't troll serious threads, thanks. Could you point me to the serious thread please... I can't find it.
Kao Lei	Posted - 2008.01.27 10:30:00 - [76] It's actually quite simple. Ofcourse it will take off, it's proven everyday. You take one shuttle, plane if you like and put it on a giant threadmill, a really HUGE one, let's say... 'earth'. Earth is capable of turning around, it's not blocked in it's movement so you could see it as a threadmill. Now, when the plane starts to accelerate on the threadmill, can it take off? I think it can though, the ones I've watched were taking off each time.
Shu Set	Posted - 2008.01.27 18:22:00 - [77] Yes, it'll take off. An easier way to imagine it is like so: If you're holding a toy car on a treadmill, can you still push it forward despite the fact the treadmill is spinning back at you at many more mph than your arm can move? Yes, you'll find that you can push the car forward...because the "thrust" isn't in the tires of the car...it's in your arm. Just as the thrust of the shuttle or plane isn't in its wheels, but in its engine, which is independent of the treadmill motion.
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.01.28 03:49:00 - [78] This thread is ******* fantastic! All it needs are Star Trek Scenarios! _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2008.01.28 04:17:00 - [79] Didn't they cover all of this in your treadmill's users manual? If no, i would probably call the manufacturer. ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
Dreaded Drew	Posted - 2008.01.28 04:50:00 - [80] THIS QUESTION IS STUPID!! AN PLANE WONT TAKE OFF JUST BECAUSE THE WHEELS ARE TURNING!!! AHH! morans!
Dreaded Drew	Posted - 2008.01.28 04:51:00 - [81] [h1]YOU NEED WIND ON THE WINGS! WIND!!![h1] Morans morans morans
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.01.28 04:59:00 - [82] This thread is almost as good as a true classic. Glass: Liquid or solid? (perhaps soquid?) Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
Kessiaan	Posted - 2008.01.28 05:37:00 - [83] Originally by: Suze'Rain rolls eyes a vehicle (ie, car) placed on a perfect treadmill would not move - forward motion is made by torque through the wheels. a jet/rocket engine (aircraft, shuttle) would move forward as the thrust from the engines. as per newton's third law, the backwards thrust of the engine is countered by an equal and opposite reaction, which will be transmitted through the structure of the vehicle to propel the entire thing forward. therefore, irrespective of how fast the treadmill goes, the free-turning wheels will simply spin faster and faster while the vehicle itself accelerates either off the treadmill, or if the treadmill is long enough, up to and beyond take-off velocity. Assuming that neither the wheels or treadmill are perfect, additional factors like fraction might make the shuttle need fractionally more speed to take off, but the difference would be negligible. This. A treadmill will not keep in place any vehicle who's motive force is not transmitted through the wheels. In the case of any aircraft (even a prop plane), a rocket engine, jet engine, whatever, the thrust generated by the engine will accelerate the vehicle forward regardless of the velocity of the treadmill. The wheels will turn at a speed equal to the speed of the treadmill plus the forward speed of the vehicle, and was said in the quote it'll go forward and accelerate off the treadmill, or, if it's long enough, it'll reach a speed where it has enough lift to take off, and do so. ----- My in Eve Profile My BattleClinic Page
MalVortex	Posted - 2008.01.28 06:05:00 - [84] Its disheartening that those who play an Internet spaceship game don't know basic high school level physics.
Lallante Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.28 10:09:00 - [85] Its considerably more disheartening that everyone in this thread (2 exceptions) dont spot that this is an ancient, classic troll and the OP is just stringing it out. Though you are all wrong; The plane MAY OR MAY NOT take off depending on the ratio of its max thrust to max friction with the treadmill, and how much lift the plane requires to takeoff. The force of friction (which is far from negligable in the case of most planes, especially heavy ones) substantially reduces the effect of the thrust on the planes forward momentum and thus the lift generated. This may or may not be enough to prevent the plane taking off, even though the plane WILL move forward. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - Reikoku
JiuTouNiao	Posted - 2008.01.28 11:50:00 - [86] Quote: Lies. There is an oxidizing agent in ALL gunpowders. This is why they can combust so rapidly in a very confined space. Learn to chemistry, noob. QFT, most firearms even work underwater, at least once, they might very well jam after that (semi/automatics). On the topic: ... Nah, no way I'll reply to that! Or maybe... Ok to those diehard stubborn people out there, imagine a submarine. The medium the submarine travels in is water, but our submarine in question has emerged slightly (maybe 15% of it's surface are exposed to air). Would it make a huge difference if there was a strong wind? Except for rough sea which might admittedly ensue the wind would be nothing to worry about. Likewise a plane travels in (and by interacting with) the medium of air.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.29 16:05:00 - [87] Look guys, if a plane could take off from a treadmill, then airports wouldn't have runways, they'd have giant treadmills instead. Similarly, if a shuttle could take off from a treadmill, the NASA wouldn't use massive rockets to reach orbit. QED.
Strangely Brown Cult of the Purple Wolf	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:06:00 - [88] Edited by: Strangely Brown on 29/01/2008 17:10:23 Originally by: Gypsio III Look guys, if a plane could take off from a treadmill, then airports wouldn't have runways, they'd have giant treadmills instead. No they wouldn't, as the treadmill would have to be as long as or longer than the runway. As Lallante said the plane may or may not actually take off, but it WOULD move forward.
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:47:00 - [89] Doesnt anyone have a RC airplane and a treadmill? Look it up on youtube. The plane moves.
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.01.31 13:25:00 - [90] Everyone watch Mythbusters last night? They tested an RC airplane on a conveyor moving at takeoff speed, and it took off. Then they did the same thing with an ultralight and it took off. Myth...Busted!

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THIS QUESTION IS STUPID!! AN PLANE WONT TAKE OFF JUST BECAUSE THE WHEELS ARE TURNING!!!