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Does the shuttle take off?

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Ernesto Hoost	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:21:00 - [31] Originally by: Farkin Ugly If this isnt the case why even mention a tread mill in the first place??????? Exactly You can remove the wheels entirely from the equation, and the result will be the same. The force from the engine is NOT transfered to the wheels. That is after all how it can fly once in the air. That being the whole point of an aircraft If it required wheels and a surface to propel it, it would be called a....CAR
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:31:00 - [32] If the shuttle is putting enough thrust to go say, 100km/s forward, and the treadmill is going 100km/s backwards, the wheels will be spinning at 200km/s and the shuttle will be going 100km/s forward. The relation of the shuttle to the ground is meaningless since the shuttles engines do not use the ground to provide thrust, the fact that the ground is going backwards just means that the wheels have to spin to keep the shuttle stationary, and then have to spin even more once the shuttle starts moving forward. You will wear your tires out faster, but you will take off.
Zor Chaine	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:50:00 - [33] Originally by: Vabjekf If the shuttle is putting enough thrust to go say, 100km/s forward, and the treadmill is going 100km/s backwards, the wheels will be spinning at 200km/s and the shuttle will be going 100km/s forward. So what you're saying is that if the treadmill is going 100km/s backwards and the plane is going 100km/s forwards, then it wouldn't move?
Ursula LeGuinn Versus Gloria Omnis	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:58:00 - [34] Good luck getting something with vertical "wings" to take off on a treadmill. In all likelihood, it would fire its engines and ZIIIIING! spin wildly, smash into a hillside four hundred yards away, and explode. ________________
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.01.25 00:24:00 - [35] Edited by: Spenz on 25/01/2008 00:24:59 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire i also see that machine guns can be fired in space. Caseless ammunition with an electrically-operated ignition system. It already exists\existed in prototype form (G11 rifle for caseless ammunition and Metal Storm for electric ignition). I don't think it would be too hard to mix an oxidizer in with the propellant. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.25 00:29:00 - [36] Since when does minnies use wheels, or excercise machinery in the first place?!!! There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
Sidious Cruz Amarr The SMITE Brotherhood Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.25 00:40:00 - [37] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle? Best reply here! How do you know so much about shuttles?
Tkar vonBiggendorf Gallente Snake Eyes Inc Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.01.25 01:29:00 - [38] I see nobody here caught the "trick" to this question. It's quite obvious. The OP stated Minmatar shuttle. Once the main engine fired, the vibration combined with gravity forces that the shuttle is not used to would cause the bailing wire and duck tape to fail, and the entire thing would fall apart. If the treadmill is running, the resulting bits would be thrown backward. The smaller bits might actually "take off" a little before falling back to the ground.
Lamis The Vinlanders SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.25 03:37:00 - [39] Think about it, the shuttle gets up to about 500km/s. 500 Kilometers. A Second. Wings? Wheels? when you are going that fast getting UP isnt a problem, its having the shuttle not explode from friction :P
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.01.25 07:59:00 - [40] Originally by: Zor Chaine Originally by: Vabjekf If the shuttle is putting enough thrust to go say, 100km/s forward, and the treadmill is going 100km/s backwards, the wheels will be spinning at 200km/s and the shuttle will be going 100km/s forward. So what you're saying is that if the treadmill is going 100km/s backwards and the plane is going 100km/s forwards, then it wouldn't move? No. Im saying the shuttle will be going 100km/s forward, because the wheels are totally negating the treadmill. In reality it wont be exact, because there is still the friction of the wheels turning to take into account, the wheels will not be able to 100% negate the treadmill, so, depending on how good the wheels are, the shuttle will probably be moving, say.. 95km/s forward. The fact is that the wheels exist to more or less remove the effect of the ground on the shuttle, thats their purpose. The better the wheel, the less you have to care about what the ground is doing. If the wheels where 'perfect' the ground could be going infinitely fast in reverse and the shuttle would still move forward at whatever speed its engines would move it forward if the ground was not moving at all. Now, thats for a shuttle. For a jet plane, it gets more complicated, because while what i said is still true, a jet engine needs to be going forward some for it to start working properly, and the slight backwards force that the imperfect wheels would be providing may not be able to overcome the simple forward propulsion that the turbines produce. (a jet plane usually has to be going at maximum power to get moving, because the engine barely works until you start getting air forced into the intake) A propeller plane would have no trouble however. Neither would a rocket powered aircraft. And neither would a minmatar shuttle.
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.01.25 08:21:00 - [41] It depends. How many skill points does the shuttle pilot have?
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2008.01.25 09:46:00 - [42] Originally by: Zor Chaine but the treadmill will just spin in time with the wheels!! No, the treadmill will spin in time with the forward velocity of the aircraft. The aircrafts wheels will be rotating ~twice as fast. People need to stop thinking about how a car reacts with a tredmill. A car requires friction and acquires its velocity through a driveshaft rotating the wheels & depends on friction with the road surface. An aircraft works completely differently. Wheels are there as a means to minimalise friction. They do not move the aircraft itself - that is provided by the thrust generated from the aircrafts engines acting upon the air around it (not the wheels!). In aerospace, friction between wheel and runway is kept to a minimum, the thrust from the aircrafts engines will push the aircraft forward, until the airflow over the wings creates enough lift to take it into the air.
Caiman Graystock Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:13:00 - [43] I dont know why anyone bothers to debate this. No matter how much thrust the engines are producing, relative to the air the shuttle will not be moving, if the treadmill is constantly matching the thrust to keep it in the same place. No lift is generated, the aircraft can not take off.
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:29:00 - [44] Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 25/01/2008 10:29:59 Originally by: Caiman Graystock I dont know why anyone bothers to debate this. No matter how much thrust the engines are producing, relative to the air the shuttle will not be moving, if the treadmill is constantly matching the thrust to keep it in the same place. No lift is generated, the aircraft can not take off. Really? It sounds to me like your still thinking of an aircraft like a car..... probably best we do continue to discuss it ;) Let's start at the beginning. The plane isn't moving with its engines switched off. The treadmill is not moving because the plane is not moving. As the engines activate and start to force the plane to go forward, the treadmill starts to move at the same speed of the plane. However, because the wheels are free to move, the treadmill has no effect on the plane, only the wheels, so the plane continues to go forward. The faster the plane goes forward, the faster the treadmill moves backward, but it's only affecting the wheels, not the plane. The plane will still take off, but the wheels will turn at twice the speed because of the treadmill. Because the wheels are free to move and does not affect the speed of the plane, the treadmill has no effect on the speed of the plane. If the plane was powered by it's wheels, like a car, and the treadmill speed was linked to the speed of the wheels. Then the plane will simply not move.
Terianna Eri Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:52:00 - [45] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 25/01/2008 10:52:04 hey guys what's going on in this thread __________________________________
Culdees	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:02:00 - [46] think of the bearings in the wheels. if the plane was a ball, friction to the treadmill was max, the thrust could somehow be forced in one direction, and the treadmill kept up with it, then the 'plane' would just sit there. as it stands, the plane is detached from the outer wheel by bearings or similar, so the bearings and outer wheel would spin twice the speed in the opposite direction of that of the plane.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:19:00 - [47] Well, if the shuttle AND the treadmill were both of minmatar construction, it'd probably go more like this: Highly Scientific Demonstration of Go / No Go Minmatar Shuttle stuff But of course now you're just reading my sig...
Bishman82 Racketeers Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:49:00 - [48] SHUTTLES DON'T HAVE WHEELS
Amanda Blue Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:33:00 - [49] Originally by: Bishman82 SHUTTLES DON'T HAVE WHEELS I heard they don't tank well either.
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:17:00 - [50] They did this on "Mythbusters". No, the airplane (or shuttle) won't take off. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:50:00 - [51] Lots of people failing high school physics ITT. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:59:00 - [52] Originally by: Culdees think of the bearings in the wheels. if the plane was a ball, friction to the treadmill was max, the thrust could somehow be forced in one direction, and the treadmill kept up with it, then the 'plane' would just sit there. as it stands, the plane is detached from the outer wheel by bearings or similar, so the bearings and outer wheel would spin twice the speed in the opposite direction of that of the plane. The entire problem that some people are noticing or ignoring is friction. If there is friction between the wheels and the treadmill (i.e. gravity making the weight of the shuttle pull towards the treadmill) and the treadmill rolls backwards as fast as the engines should be thrusting it forwards, there is no movement of the shuttle (plane) in relation to the air. No list can be produced (unless there's a strong wind). It's not that the shuttle is using the wheels to propel itself forward. It's that the energy of the jet engines propelling itself forward is being forced into the wheels because it's being pulled down by gravity. If the treadmill is already in space (negligable gravity), or there is negigible friction between the wheels and the treadmill (ice up that giant treadmill baby!), then less of the forward force provided from the jet engine would be transfered to the wheels, the shuttle would move in relation to the surrounding air, and take off. So it all comes down to how much of the forward force is being used to counter the effects of the friction caused by gravity. My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:59:00 - [53] Given the OPs question, of course it will take off.... Quote: If the shuttle is sitting on a treadmill and fires up it's engines, it needs to reach take off speed the same as a plane to get off the ground. With the shuttle's wheels turning on the treadmill, does it ever take off? Ask yourself this -: If an airplane is on such a treadmill and is stationary, assuming the there is no friction between the wheels of the airplane and the wheel bearings what happens to the aircraft if the treadmill begins to accelerate backwards at 10mph? A. The aircraft remains stationary. The free moving wheels of the aircraft rotate in the opposite direction to the treadmill at a speed of 10mph. Now of course we don't live in a perfectly frictionless world, so go do this experiment for yourself. Get a pair of roller blades and go down to your local gym, make sure they are well oiled and stand on a running machine, turn it on and keep increasing the speed. With your thumb and finger hold onto the bar at the front and then answer this question. How much effort does it take you to hold onto the running machine? the answer is hardly any (unless your roller blades are in a real good need of oiling). If the treadmill is moving backwards at a speed of 10mph and your friend pushes you forward at a speed of 1mph, you will move forward at 1mph, while your wheels will be moving at 11mph... Your friend in this example is the engine of your aircraft, airplanes engines do not turn wheels, they interact with air, creating thrust and forward motion. I did a check for the mythbusters episode btw, it seems a similar question is being posed, but i can only find listings for the 30th january this year so can you provide a link otherwise?
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:28:00 - [54] Originally by: Zor Chaine Originally by: Sokratesz Congratulations gentlemen, you've been trolled. please don't troll serious discussions, thanks This topic has been used as a troll on SO MANY forums. --
Cal Adan Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:33:00 - [55] Originally by: Sidious Cruz Originally by: Angel DeMorphis But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle? Best reply here! How do you know so much about shuttles? One has to when one is Minmatar you know In space no-one can hear you far.t.
BuffB Amarr 13 apostle's	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:39:00 - [56] Nerf shuttles they shouldnt have a drone bay!!! Buffb 13 Apostles Keepin it Financial!!!
Skanque H'Or	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:44:00 - [57] http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060203.html
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 18:18:00 - [58] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth The faster the plane goes forward, the faster the treadmill moves backward, but it's only affecting the wheels, not the plane. While I agree with the other stuff you've said this seems wrong to me. If there were no friction between the plane's wheels and the treadmill, wouldn't the plane take off without the treadmill moving at all. There is no force affecting it in any direction of what I can see. If there in fact were friction (in the plane's wheel-axle) wouldn't the treadmill move in the same direction as the speeding plane? The plane gets its momentum from outside this system and the friction between the treadmill, the weel and its axle should make it move in the same direction... It's been a long time since I studied physics so please fill me in if I'm missing something abvious here.
Gealbhan Caldari The SAS The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.25 19:50:00 - [59] The shuttle would crash and burn on the treadmill. Heat! The wheels spinning on the treadmill would cause a % of friction heat to the tyres and bearings, depending on stress load they'd get hot enough to bust the tyres and cease the bearings. The whole undercarriage would the crumble and the shuttle would take a high speed nose dive into the treadmill = BOOM. "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.25 19:57:00 - [60] Sometimes, I honestly wonder if people really believe the wheels on an airplane actually assist in takeoff other than lowering the friction between the plane and the runway :P _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.

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