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Zor Chaine
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:25:00 -
[1]
I have a minmatar shuttle that acts like an airplane in the atmosphere.
If the shuttle is sitting on a treadmill and fires up it's engines, it needs to reach take off speed the same as a plane to get off the ground.
With the shuttle's wheels turning on the treadmill, does it ever take off? |
Qanael Radlari
Caldari
Kinetic Vector
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:31:00 -
[2]
The shuttle's source of thrust are the thrusters, not the wheels. Therefore, assuming the wheels are frictionless, the shuttle will accelerate to takeoff speed relative to the atmosphere, thus generating enough lift. The treadmill's motion is irrelevant in this case.
Assuming the wheels are not frictionless, it all depends on the speed of the treadmill and how much of it is turned into motion, again, relative to the atmosphere. It's not a yes/no answer.
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Ernesto Hoost
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:32:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Zor Chaine
I have a minmatar shuttle that acts like an airplane in the atmosphere.
If the shuttle is sitting on a treadmill and fires up it's engines, it needs to reach take off speed the same as a plane to get off the ground.
With the shuttle's wheels turning on the treadmill, does it ever take off?
Bored at work?
It's engines generate thrust, not torque delivered at the wheels.
Put a firework horizontal on a tread mill, and tell me if it cares whether the tread mill is on or not 
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Xanath Fireheart
Under Heavy Fire
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:32:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Xanath Fireheart on 24/01/2008 17:33:51
No, because it would need airflow over the 'wings' to take off... sitting still on a treadmill doean't create much airflow 
Is the treadmill turned on? 
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hundurinn
Pagan Belief
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:33:00 -
[5]
It will take off.
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Zor Chaine
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:36:00 -
[6]
but the treadmill will just spin in time with the wheels!!
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hundurinn
Pagan Belief
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:37:00 -
[7]
The shuttle's engines push air backwards. The resulting reaction pushes the shuttle forwards. At the same time, there is friction between the wheels and the treadmill, trying to pull the shuttle backwards.
If the brakes were on, the wheels would start to slip on the treadmill until the maximum possible friction force was being applied. This would be less than the thrust provided by the engines, so the shuttle would move forwards.
Even with the brakes off, there is a maximum force the treadmill surface can apply to rotate the wheels. After that is exceeded, the wheels will slip. The shuttle will still start moving forwards. Once that happens, there is air flow over the wings. When the shuttle gets up enough forward speed to generate sufficient lift, it will take off.
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Ernesto Hoost
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:39:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zor Chaine
but the treadmill will just spin in time with the wheels!!
If it worked like a car, and didn't have a dirty great thruster at the back ...maybe.
You realise planes don't have any power going to the wheels don't you?
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Xanath Fireheart
Under Heavy Fire
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:40:00 -
[9]
I guess it might come down to how heavy the shuttle is and how much weight is on the wheels... and if the wheels are indeed needed to provide enough speed for take off.
But then again.. I'm not a physisist 
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Richard Phallus
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ernesto Hoost
You realise planes don't have any power going to the wheels don't you?
No, Jet engines actually route their exhaust out little nozzles on the rims of the wheels. It's quite a sight when the after burner kicks in. No so good when the tires melt though 
--
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Xanath Fireheart
Under Heavy Fire
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:43:00 -
[11]
/me goes to get a boeing 747 and a huuuuge treadmill.
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Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari
eNinjas Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.01.24 17:43:00 -
[12]
If takeoff speed was 500mph, and you had the treadmill moving at 500mph, it would just make the shuttle's wheels spin at 500mph faster than the shuttle was going. Without the brakes on, this will have little effect on the shuttle. The shuttle will easily move forward, completely ignoring the treadmill.
The shuttle would easily accelerate to hundreds of MPH, leaving the treadmill behind, and then the question becomes irrelevant.
nullnull |
Suze'Rain
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.24 18:34:00 -
[13]
*rolls eyes*
a vehicle (ie, car) placed on a perfect treadmill would not move - forward motion is made by torque through the wheels.
a jet/rocket engine (aircraft, shuttle) would move forward as the thrust from the engines. as per newton's third law, the backwards thrust of the engine is countered by an equal and opposite reaction, which will be transmitted through the structure of the vehicle to propel the entire thing forward.
therefore, irrespective of how fast the treadmill goes, the free-turning wheels will simply spin faster and faster while the vehicle itself accelerates either off the treadmill, or if the treadmill is long enough, up to and beyond take-off velocity.
Assuming that neither the wheels or treadmill are perfect, additional factors like fraction might make the shuttle need fractionally more speed to take off, but the difference would be negligible.
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.24 18:44:00 -
[14]
But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle?
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 18:57:00 -
[15]
Congratulations gentlemen, you've been trolled.
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Zor Chaine
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Posted - 2008.01.24 18:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Congratulations gentlemen, you've been trolled.
please don't troll serious discussions, thanks |
Farkin Ugly
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Posted - 2008.01.24 19:19:00 -
[17]
If you think this is the case and that the shuttle would suddenly "jump" into the air because of the speed of the tread mill you are smoken large bags of weed.
If this were in fact true then the American and British research people wasted bilions and bilions of dollars/pounds developing the STOL type aircraft. All they need to do was install a honken great tread mill and boom you are in the air!!!!!!!
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Ernesto Hoost
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Posted - 2008.01.24 19:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Farkin Ugly
If you think this is the case and that the shuttle would suddenly "jump" into the air because of the speed of the tread mill you are smoken large bags of weed.
If this were in fact true then the American and British research people wasted bilions and bilions of dollars/pounds developing the STOL type aircraft. All they need to do was install a honken great tread mill and boom you are in the air!!!!!!!
Wait..your actually saying that it wouldn't take off You really need to lay of the smoke dude.
Given enough thrust..you can make a brick fly.
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Dubious Drewski
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Posted - 2008.01.24 19:29:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Dubious Drewski on 24/01/2008 19:32:59
Wtf? Are people actually debating whether a plane on a treadmill would takeoff?
Holy crap. I am making a very disgusted look with my face right now as I type this.
What, are we in 2nd grade?
While we're at it, let's debate what colour you get from mixing yellow and blue paint. It's definatley fuschia! Fuschia!! God.
EDIT:
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle?
Ok, that was funny. Heh.
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Firkragg
Blue Labs
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2008.01.24 19:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Farkin Ugly
If you think this is the case and that the shuttle would suddenly "jump" into the air because of the speed of the tread mill you are smoken large bags of weed.
If this were in fact true then the American and British research people wasted bilions and bilions of dollars/pounds developing the STOL type aircraft. All they need to do was install a honken great tread mill and boom you are in the air!!!!!!!
Nobody said that it would jump into the air. Whats been said is that the fact is has wheels on a treadmill will have no effect whatsover on its taking off. If you imagine the wheels are frictionless then it will act exactly like the plane was accelerating from stop in free space. It would gain forward momentum and lift.
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Xindi Kraid
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.24 19:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle?
Your sig expresses my reaction perfectly.
Seriously people. To take off requires it to be moving. The whole concept of a treadmill is to keep things in place despite forces wanting to push them forward
--Bird of Prey: Forum God
1. War
2.
3. Profit |
Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Empire Mining and Trade
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Posted - 2008.01.24 19:43:00 -
[22]
Me thinks someone was watching the Exploration Chat last night, as we discussed this very thing. Everyone says at first that the plane doesnt take off because there is no air moving over the wings, but this is because they think that a plane works like a car, that the engine drive the wheels forward and friction against the ground makes it go till it gets enough lift.
OF course, that isnt the case. The wheels on a plane are designed to have as little friction as possible in order to minimize the thrust needed to take off. So if the ground is moving backwards, the wheels spin. If you were to not run the prop and start the ground moving, the plane would actually stay in place and not move because no force is pushing against the fuselage. The wheels would just spin. Once you engage the prop, it pulls the plane forward, resulting in lift.
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Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar
54th Knights Templar
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.24 19:45:00 -
[23]
Quote:
With the shuttle's wheels turning on the treadmill, does it ever take off?
Given the weight of the treadmill and the amount of force a shuttle produces, I'm pretty sure that as soon as the thrusters fire, the treadmill and the shuttle will 'take off' in whatever direction you're pointing. :P
Not to mention our ships don't have wheels and we don't have runways :P
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Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it. |
Firkragg
Blue Labs
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2008.01.24 19:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle?
Your sig expresses my reaction perfectly.
Seriously people. To take off requires it to be moving. The whole concept of a treadmill is to keep things in place despite forces wanting to push them forward
as i said a minute ago the key point is that the plane still moves. The trick is people associate the wheels with driving the plane forwards when in fact its the engine.
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Farkin Ugly
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Posted - 2008.01.24 20:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ernesto Hoost
Originally by: Farkin Ugly
If you think this is the case and that the shuttle would suddenly "jump" into the air because of the speed of the tread mill you are smoken large bags of weed.
If this were in fact true then the American and British research people wasted bilions and bilions of dollars/pounds developing the STOL type aircraft. All they need to do was install a honken great tread mill and boom you are in the air!!!!!!!
Wait..your actually saying that it wouldn't take off You really need to lay of the smoke dude.
Given enough thrust..you can make a brick fly.
You are absolutly correct and that with enough thrust I could make a brick fly. The argument in question is the fact that the speed of the tread mill matches the forward thrust of the shuttle/plane, therefore negating the thrust effect. If this isnt the case why even mention a tread mill in the first place???????
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Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar
54th Knights Templar
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.24 20:14:00 -
[26]
This is very similar to how the harry potter flying car scene worked. They put wings on the side of the car, and put the car on one of those horse power testers and had it rev up as fast as it could.. then they had the car fly around a while and filmed it.. later they edited the wings and the horsepower wheel spinners out for the movie. 
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Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it. |
Splagada
Minmatar
Tides of Silence
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.24 20:17:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Richard Phallus
Originally by: Ernesto Hoost
You realise planes don't have any power going to the wheels don't you?
No, Jet engines actually route their exhaust out little nozzles on the rims of the wheels. It's quite a sight when the after burner kicks in. No so good when the tires melt though
wtf lol. jet engines are jet powered, they dont have side exhausts :p
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Tides of Silence |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
SIVAKASI
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Posted - 2008.01.24 20:19:00 -
[28]
hmmmmm, this sounds liek a trick question. i am geussing that in this space teh is air. i mean i see spaceship with fire in their hull and missles have nice asplotion effect. and i also see that machine guns can be fired in space.
because of that, my common sense also tells me your shuttle can take off in space because it is an spaceplane in space.
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Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
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Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar
54th Knights Templar
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.24 20:23:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 24/01/2008 20:22:51
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
i also see that machine guns can be fired in space.
Its possible to fire machine guns in space really, you just have to inject oxygen into the chamber at the same time the pin hits. It has to be custom modified, so you can't just go get a spacesuit and an uzi and expect it to work :P
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Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it. |
Daminma2
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.01.24 21:02:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Daminma2 on 24/01/2008 21:06:26
Edited by: Daminma2 on 24/01/2008 21:05:48
It takes off. It has to apply some more power to undo the friction effect of the tires touching the ground.
Think of it this way. If the plane was a hover craft(didn't need wheels to stay up on the ground - frictionless wheels) would it take off?
If you say no...how does a hovercraft move?
Also, for the ones that say it will not take off.
What if a plane is landing on a runway that is a treadmill that is moving at the same speed as the plane on an opposite vector. Will the plane come to a complete stop as soon as it touches the treadmill runway?
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