EVE Search - Does the shuttle take off?

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Does the shuttle take off?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Zor Chaine	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:25:00 - [1] I have a minmatar shuttle that acts like an airplane in the atmosphere. If the shuttle is sitting on a treadmill and fires up it's engines, it needs to reach take off speed the same as a plane to get off the ground. With the shuttle's wheels turning on the treadmill, does it ever take off?
Qanael Radlari Caldari Kinetic Vector	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:31:00 - [2] The shuttle's source of thrust are the thrusters, not the wheels. Therefore, assuming the wheels are frictionless, the shuttle will accelerate to takeoff speed relative to the atmosphere, thus generating enough lift. The treadmill's motion is irrelevant in this case. Assuming the wheels are not frictionless, it all depends on the speed of the treadmill and how much of it is turned into motion, again, relative to the atmosphere. It's not a yes/no answer.
Ernesto Hoost	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:32:00 - [3] Originally by: Zor Chaine I have a minmatar shuttle that acts like an airplane in the atmosphere. If the shuttle is sitting on a treadmill and fires up it's engines, it needs to reach take off speed the same as a plane to get off the ground. With the shuttle's wheels turning on the treadmill, does it ever take off? Bored at work? It's engines generate thrust, not torque delivered at the wheels. Put a firework horizontal on a tread mill, and tell me if it cares whether the tread mill is on or not
Xanath Fireheart Under Heavy Fire	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:32:00 - [4] Edited by: Xanath Fireheart on 24/01/2008 17:33:51 No, because it would need airflow over the 'wings' to take off... sitting still on a treadmill doean't create much airflow Is the treadmill turned on?
hundurinn Pagan Belief	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:33:00 - [5] It will take off.
Zor Chaine	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:36:00 - [6] but the treadmill will just spin in time with the wheels!!
hundurinn Pagan Belief	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:37:00 - [7] The shuttle's engines push air backwards. The resulting reaction pushes the shuttle forwards. At the same time, there is friction between the wheels and the treadmill, trying to pull the shuttle backwards. If the brakes were on, the wheels would start to slip on the treadmill until the maximum possible friction force was being applied. This would be less than the thrust provided by the engines, so the shuttle would move forwards. Even with the brakes off, there is a maximum force the treadmill surface can apply to rotate the wheels. After that is exceeded, the wheels will slip. The shuttle will still start moving forwards. Once that happens, there is air flow over the wings. When the shuttle gets up enough forward speed to generate sufficient lift, it will take off.
Ernesto Hoost	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Zor Chaine but the treadmill will just spin in time with the wheels!! If it worked like a car, and didn't have a dirty great thruster at the back ...maybe. You realise planes don't have any power going to the wheels don't you?
Xanath Fireheart Under Heavy Fire	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:40:00 - [9] I guess it might come down to how heavy the shuttle is and how much weight is on the wheels... and if the wheels are indeed needed to provide enough speed for take off. But then again.. I'm not a physisist
Richard Phallus	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:41:00 - [10] Originally by: Ernesto Hoost You realise planes don't have any power going to the wheels don't you? No, Jet engines actually route their exhaust out little nozzles on the rims of the wheels. It's quite a sight when the after burner kicks in. No so good when the tires melt though --
Xanath Fireheart Under Heavy Fire	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:43:00 - [11] /me goes to get a boeing 747 and a huuuuge treadmill.
Falkrich Swifthand Caldari eNinjas Incorporated	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:43:00 - [12] If takeoff speed was 500mph, and you had the treadmill moving at 500mph, it would just make the shuttle's wheels spin at 500mph faster than the shuttle was going. Without the brakes on, this will have little effect on the shuttle. The shuttle will easily move forward, completely ignoring the treadmill. The shuttle would easily accelerate to hundreds of MPH, leaving the treadmill behind, and then the question becomes irrelevant. nullnull
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:34:00 - [13] rolls eyes a vehicle (ie, car) placed on a perfect treadmill would not move - forward motion is made by torque through the wheels. a jet/rocket engine (aircraft, shuttle) would move forward as the thrust from the engines. as per newton's third law, the backwards thrust of the engine is countered by an equal and opposite reaction, which will be transmitted through the structure of the vehicle to propel the entire thing forward. therefore, irrespective of how fast the treadmill goes, the free-turning wheels will simply spin faster and faster while the vehicle itself accelerates either off the treadmill, or if the treadmill is long enough, up to and beyond take-off velocity. Assuming that neither the wheels or treadmill are perfect, additional factors like fraction might make the shuttle need fractionally more speed to take off, but the difference would be negligible.
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:44:00 - [14] But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle? My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:57:00 - [15] Congratulations gentlemen, you've been trolled.
Zor Chaine	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Sokratesz Congratulations gentlemen, you've been trolled. please don't troll serious discussions, thanks
Farkin Ugly	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:19:00 - [17] If you think this is the case and that the shuttle would suddenly "jump" into the air because of the speed of the tread mill you are smoken large bags of weed. If this were in fact true then the American and British research people wasted bilions and bilions of dollars/pounds developing the STOL type aircraft. All they need to do was install a honken great tread mill and boom you are in the air!!!!!!!
Ernesto Hoost	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Farkin Ugly If you think this is the case and that the shuttle would suddenly "jump" into the air because of the speed of the tread mill you are smoken large bags of weed. If this were in fact true then the American and British research people wasted bilions and bilions of dollars/pounds developing the STOL type aircraft. All they need to do was install a honken great tread mill and boom you are in the air!!!!!!! Wait..your actually saying that it wouldn't take off You really need to lay of the smoke dude. Given enough thrust..you can make a brick fly.
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:29:00 - [19] Edited by: Dubious Drewski on 24/01/2008 19:32:59 Wtf? Are people actually debating whether a plane on a treadmill would takeoff? Holy crap. I am making a very disgusted look with my face right now as I type this. What, are we in 2nd grade? While we're at it, let's debate what colour you get from mixing yellow and blue paint. It's definatley fuschia! Fuschia!! God. EDIT: Originally by: Angel DeMorphis But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle? Ok, that was funny. Heh.
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:40:00 - [20] Originally by: Farkin Ugly If you think this is the case and that the shuttle would suddenly "jump" into the air because of the speed of the tread mill you are smoken large bags of weed. If this were in fact true then the American and British research people wasted bilions and bilions of dollars/pounds developing the STOL type aircraft. All they need to do was install a honken great tread mill and boom you are in the air!!!!!!! Nobody said that it would jump into the air. Whats been said is that the fact is has wheels on a treadmill will have no effect whatsover on its taking off. If you imagine the wheels are frictionless then it will act exactly like the plane was accelerating from stop in free space. It would gain forward momentum and lift.
Xindi Kraid Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle? Your sig expresses my reaction perfectly. Seriously people. To take off requires it to be moving. The whole concept of a treadmill is to keep things in place despite forces wanting to push them forward --Bird of Prey: Forum God 1. War 2. 3. Profit
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:43:00 - [22] Me thinks someone was watching the Exploration Chat last night, as we discussed this very thing. Everyone says at first that the plane doesnt take off because there is no air moving over the wings, but this is because they think that a plane works like a car, that the engine drive the wheels forward and friction against the ground makes it go till it gets enough lift. OF course, that isnt the case. The wheels on a plane are designed to have as little friction as possible in order to minimize the thrust needed to take off. So if the ground is moving backwards, the wheels spin. If you were to not run the prop and start the ground moving, the plane would actually stay in place and not move because no force is pushing against the fuselage. The wheels would just spin. Once you engage the prop, it pulls the plane forward, resulting in lift.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:45:00 - [23] Quote: With the shuttle's wheels turning on the treadmill, does it ever take off? Given the weight of the treadmill and the amount of force a shuttle produces, I'm pretty sure that as soon as the thrusters fire, the treadmill and the shuttle will 'take off' in whatever direction you're pointing. :P Not to mention our ships don't have wheels and we don't have runways :P _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:46:00 - [24] Originally by: Xindi Kraid Originally by: Angel DeMorphis But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle? Your sig expresses my reaction perfectly. Seriously people. To take off requires it to be moving. The whole concept of a treadmill is to keep things in place despite forces wanting to push them forward as i said a minute ago the key point is that the plane still moves. The trick is people associate the wheels with driving the plane forwards when in fact its the engine.
Farkin Ugly	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Ernesto Hoost Originally by: Farkin Ugly If you think this is the case and that the shuttle would suddenly "jump" into the air because of the speed of the tread mill you are smoken large bags of weed. If this were in fact true then the American and British research people wasted bilions and bilions of dollars/pounds developing the STOL type aircraft. All they need to do was install a honken great tread mill and boom you are in the air!!!!!!! Wait..your actually saying that it wouldn't take off You really need to lay of the smoke dude. Given enough thrust..you can make a brick fly. You are absolutly correct and that with enough thrust I could make a brick fly. The argument in question is the fact that the speed of the tread mill matches the forward thrust of the shuttle/plane, therefore negating the thrust effect. If this isnt the case why even mention a tread mill in the first place???????
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:14:00 - [26] This is very similar to how the harry potter flying car scene worked. They put wings on the side of the car, and put the car on one of those horse power testers and had it rev up as fast as it could.. then they had the car fly around a while and filmed it.. later they edited the wings and the horsepower wheel spinners out for the movie. _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:17:00 - [27] Originally by: Richard Phallus Originally by: Ernesto Hoost You realise planes don't have any power going to the wheels don't you? No, Jet engines actually route their exhaust out little nozzles on the rims of the wheels. It's quite a sight when the after burner kicks in. No so good when the tires melt though wtf lol. jet engines are jet powered, they dont have side exhausts :p ------ Tides of Silence
Jenny Spitfire Caldari SIVAKASI	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:19:00 - [28] hmmmmm, this sounds liek a trick question. i am geussing that in this space teh is air. i mean i see spaceship with fire in their hull and missles have nice asplotion effect. and i also see that machine guns can be fired in space. because of that, my common sense also tells me your shuttle can take off in space because it is an spaceplane in space. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment -KB-
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:23:00 - [29] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 24/01/2008 20:22:51 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire i also see that machine guns can be fired in space. Its possible to fire machine guns in space really, you just have to inject oxygen into the chamber at the same time the pin hits. It has to be custom modified, so you can't just go get a spacesuit and an uzi and expect it to work :P _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Daminma2 Perkone	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:02:00 - [30] Edited by: Daminma2 on 24/01/2008 21:06:26 Edited by: Daminma2 on 24/01/2008 21:05:48 It takes off. It has to apply some more power to undo the friction effect of the tires touching the ground. Think of it this way. If the plane was a hover craft(didn't need wheels to stay up on the ground - frictionless wheels) would it take off? If you say no...how does a hovercraft move? Also, for the ones that say it will not take off. What if a plane is landing on a runway that is a treadmill that is moving at the same speed as the plane on an opposite vector. Will the plane come to a complete stop as soon as it touches the treadmill runway?
Ernesto Hoost	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:21:00 - [31] Originally by: Farkin Ugly If this isnt the case why even mention a tread mill in the first place??????? Exactly You can remove the wheels entirely from the equation, and the result will be the same. The force from the engine is NOT transfered to the wheels. That is after all how it can fly once in the air. That being the whole point of an aircraft If it required wheels and a surface to propel it, it would be called a....CAR
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:31:00 - [32] If the shuttle is putting enough thrust to go say, 100km/s forward, and the treadmill is going 100km/s backwards, the wheels will be spinning at 200km/s and the shuttle will be going 100km/s forward. The relation of the shuttle to the ground is meaningless since the shuttles engines do not use the ground to provide thrust, the fact that the ground is going backwards just means that the wheels have to spin to keep the shuttle stationary, and then have to spin even more once the shuttle starts moving forward. You will wear your tires out faster, but you will take off.
Zor Chaine	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:50:00 - [33] Originally by: Vabjekf If the shuttle is putting enough thrust to go say, 100km/s forward, and the treadmill is going 100km/s backwards, the wheels will be spinning at 200km/s and the shuttle will be going 100km/s forward. So what you're saying is that if the treadmill is going 100km/s backwards and the plane is going 100km/s forwards, then it wouldn't move?
Ursula LeGuinn Versus Gloria Omnis	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:58:00 - [34] Good luck getting something with vertical "wings" to take off on a treadmill. In all likelihood, it would fire its engines and ZIIIIING! spin wildly, smash into a hillside four hundred yards away, and explode. ________________
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.01.25 00:24:00 - [35] Edited by: Spenz on 25/01/2008 00:24:59 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire i also see that machine guns can be fired in space. Caseless ammunition with an electrically-operated ignition system. It already exists\existed in prototype form (G11 rifle for caseless ammunition and Metal Storm for electric ignition). I don't think it would be too hard to mix an oxidizer in with the propellant. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.25 00:29:00 - [36] Since when does minnies use wheels, or excercise machinery in the first place?!!! There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
Sidious Cruz Amarr The SMITE Brotherhood Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.25 00:40:00 - [37] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle? Best reply here! How do you know so much about shuttles?
Tkar vonBiggendorf Gallente Snake Eyes Inc Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.01.25 01:29:00 - [38] I see nobody here caught the "trick" to this question. It's quite obvious. The OP stated Minmatar shuttle. Once the main engine fired, the vibration combined with gravity forces that the shuttle is not used to would cause the bailing wire and duck tape to fail, and the entire thing would fall apart. If the treadmill is running, the resulting bits would be thrown backward. The smaller bits might actually "take off" a little before falling back to the ground.
Lamis The Vinlanders SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.25 03:37:00 - [39] Think about it, the shuttle gets up to about 500km/s. 500 Kilometers. A Second. Wings? Wheels? when you are going that fast getting UP isnt a problem, its having the shuttle not explode from friction :P
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.01.25 07:59:00 - [40] Originally by: Zor Chaine Originally by: Vabjekf If the shuttle is putting enough thrust to go say, 100km/s forward, and the treadmill is going 100km/s backwards, the wheels will be spinning at 200km/s and the shuttle will be going 100km/s forward. So what you're saying is that if the treadmill is going 100km/s backwards and the plane is going 100km/s forwards, then it wouldn't move? No. Im saying the shuttle will be going 100km/s forward, because the wheels are totally negating the treadmill. In reality it wont be exact, because there is still the friction of the wheels turning to take into account, the wheels will not be able to 100% negate the treadmill, so, depending on how good the wheels are, the shuttle will probably be moving, say.. 95km/s forward. The fact is that the wheels exist to more or less remove the effect of the ground on the shuttle, thats their purpose. The better the wheel, the less you have to care about what the ground is doing. If the wheels where 'perfect' the ground could be going infinitely fast in reverse and the shuttle would still move forward at whatever speed its engines would move it forward if the ground was not moving at all. Now, thats for a shuttle. For a jet plane, it gets more complicated, because while what i said is still true, a jet engine needs to be going forward some for it to start working properly, and the slight backwards force that the imperfect wheels would be providing may not be able to overcome the simple forward propulsion that the turbines produce. (a jet plane usually has to be going at maximum power to get moving, because the engine barely works until you start getting air forced into the intake) A propeller plane would have no trouble however. Neither would a rocket powered aircraft. And neither would a minmatar shuttle.
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.01.25 08:21:00 - [41] It depends. How many skill points does the shuttle pilot have?
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2008.01.25 09:46:00 - [42] Originally by: Zor Chaine but the treadmill will just spin in time with the wheels!! No, the treadmill will spin in time with the forward velocity of the aircraft. The aircrafts wheels will be rotating ~twice as fast. People need to stop thinking about how a car reacts with a tredmill. A car requires friction and acquires its velocity through a driveshaft rotating the wheels & depends on friction with the road surface. An aircraft works completely differently. Wheels are there as a means to minimalise friction. They do not move the aircraft itself - that is provided by the thrust generated from the aircrafts engines acting upon the air around it (not the wheels!). In aerospace, friction between wheel and runway is kept to a minimum, the thrust from the aircrafts engines will push the aircraft forward, until the airflow over the wings creates enough lift to take it into the air.
Caiman Graystock Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:13:00 - [43] I dont know why anyone bothers to debate this. No matter how much thrust the engines are producing, relative to the air the shuttle will not be moving, if the treadmill is constantly matching the thrust to keep it in the same place. No lift is generated, the aircraft can not take off.
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:29:00 - [44] Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 25/01/2008 10:29:59 Originally by: Caiman Graystock I dont know why anyone bothers to debate this. No matter how much thrust the engines are producing, relative to the air the shuttle will not be moving, if the treadmill is constantly matching the thrust to keep it in the same place. No lift is generated, the aircraft can not take off. Really? It sounds to me like your still thinking of an aircraft like a car..... probably best we do continue to discuss it ;) Let's start at the beginning. The plane isn't moving with its engines switched off. The treadmill is not moving because the plane is not moving. As the engines activate and start to force the plane to go forward, the treadmill starts to move at the same speed of the plane. However, because the wheels are free to move, the treadmill has no effect on the plane, only the wheels, so the plane continues to go forward. The faster the plane goes forward, the faster the treadmill moves backward, but it's only affecting the wheels, not the plane. The plane will still take off, but the wheels will turn at twice the speed because of the treadmill. Because the wheels are free to move and does not affect the speed of the plane, the treadmill has no effect on the speed of the plane. If the plane was powered by it's wheels, like a car, and the treadmill speed was linked to the speed of the wheels. Then the plane will simply not move.
Terianna Eri Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:52:00 - [45] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 25/01/2008 10:52:04 hey guys what's going on in this thread __________________________________
Culdees	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:02:00 - [46] think of the bearings in the wheels. if the plane was a ball, friction to the treadmill was max, the thrust could somehow be forced in one direction, and the treadmill kept up with it, then the 'plane' would just sit there. as it stands, the plane is detached from the outer wheel by bearings or similar, so the bearings and outer wheel would spin twice the speed in the opposite direction of that of the plane.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:19:00 - [47] Well, if the shuttle AND the treadmill were both of minmatar construction, it'd probably go more like this: Highly Scientific Demonstration of Go / No Go Minmatar Shuttle stuff But of course now you're just reading my sig...
Bishman82 Racketeers Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:49:00 - [48] SHUTTLES DON'T HAVE WHEELS
Amanda Blue Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:33:00 - [49] Originally by: Bishman82 SHUTTLES DON'T HAVE WHEELS I heard they don't tank well either.
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:17:00 - [50] They did this on "Mythbusters". No, the airplane (or shuttle) won't take off. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:50:00 - [51] Lots of people failing high school physics ITT. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:59:00 - [52] Originally by: Culdees think of the bearings in the wheels. if the plane was a ball, friction to the treadmill was max, the thrust could somehow be forced in one direction, and the treadmill kept up with it, then the 'plane' would just sit there. as it stands, the plane is detached from the outer wheel by bearings or similar, so the bearings and outer wheel would spin twice the speed in the opposite direction of that of the plane. The entire problem that some people are noticing or ignoring is friction. If there is friction between the wheels and the treadmill (i.e. gravity making the weight of the shuttle pull towards the treadmill) and the treadmill rolls backwards as fast as the engines should be thrusting it forwards, there is no movement of the shuttle (plane) in relation to the air. No list can be produced (unless there's a strong wind). It's not that the shuttle is using the wheels to propel itself forward. It's that the energy of the jet engines propelling itself forward is being forced into the wheels because it's being pulled down by gravity. If the treadmill is already in space (negligable gravity), or there is negigible friction between the wheels and the treadmill (ice up that giant treadmill baby!), then less of the forward force provided from the jet engine would be transfered to the wheels, the shuttle would move in relation to the surrounding air, and take off. So it all comes down to how much of the forward force is being used to counter the effects of the friction caused by gravity. My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:59:00 - [53] Given the OPs question, of course it will take off.... Quote: If the shuttle is sitting on a treadmill and fires up it's engines, it needs to reach take off speed the same as a plane to get off the ground. With the shuttle's wheels turning on the treadmill, does it ever take off? Ask yourself this -: If an airplane is on such a treadmill and is stationary, assuming the there is no friction between the wheels of the airplane and the wheel bearings what happens to the aircraft if the treadmill begins to accelerate backwards at 10mph? A. The aircraft remains stationary. The free moving wheels of the aircraft rotate in the opposite direction to the treadmill at a speed of 10mph. Now of course we don't live in a perfectly frictionless world, so go do this experiment for yourself. Get a pair of roller blades and go down to your local gym, make sure they are well oiled and stand on a running machine, turn it on and keep increasing the speed. With your thumb and finger hold onto the bar at the front and then answer this question. How much effort does it take you to hold onto the running machine? the answer is hardly any (unless your roller blades are in a real good need of oiling). If the treadmill is moving backwards at a speed of 10mph and your friend pushes you forward at a speed of 1mph, you will move forward at 1mph, while your wheels will be moving at 11mph... Your friend in this example is the engine of your aircraft, airplanes engines do not turn wheels, they interact with air, creating thrust and forward motion. I did a check for the mythbusters episode btw, it seems a similar question is being posed, but i can only find listings for the 30th january this year so can you provide a link otherwise?
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:28:00 - [54] Originally by: Zor Chaine Originally by: Sokratesz Congratulations gentlemen, you've been trolled. please don't troll serious discussions, thanks This topic has been used as a troll on SO MANY forums. --
Cal Adan Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:33:00 - [55] Originally by: Sidious Cruz Originally by: Angel DeMorphis But was it an African shuttle? Or a European shuttle? Best reply here! How do you know so much about shuttles? One has to when one is Minmatar you know In space no-one can hear you far.t.
BuffB Amarr 13 apostle's	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:39:00 - [56] Nerf shuttles they shouldnt have a drone bay!!! Buffb 13 Apostles Keepin it Financial!!!
Skanque H'Or	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:44:00 - [57] http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060203.html
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 18:18:00 - [58] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth The faster the plane goes forward, the faster the treadmill moves backward, but it's only affecting the wheels, not the plane. While I agree with the other stuff you've said this seems wrong to me. If there were no friction between the plane's wheels and the treadmill, wouldn't the plane take off without the treadmill moving at all. There is no force affecting it in any direction of what I can see. If there in fact were friction (in the plane's wheel-axle) wouldn't the treadmill move in the same direction as the speeding plane? The plane gets its momentum from outside this system and the friction between the treadmill, the weel and its axle should make it move in the same direction... It's been a long time since I studied physics so please fill me in if I'm missing something abvious here.
Gealbhan Caldari The SAS The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.25 19:50:00 - [59] The shuttle would crash and burn on the treadmill. Heat! The wheels spinning on the treadmill would cause a % of friction heat to the tyres and bearings, depending on stress load they'd get hot enough to bust the tyres and cease the bearings. The whole undercarriage would the crumble and the shuttle would take a high speed nose dive into the treadmill = BOOM. "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.25 19:57:00 - [60] Sometimes, I honestly wonder if people really believe the wheels on an airplane actually assist in takeoff other than lowering the friction between the plane and the runway :P _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.01.25 20:31:00 - [61] Originally by: Gealbhan The shuttle would crash and burn on the treadmill. Heat! The wheels spinning on the treadmill would cause a % of friction heat to the tyres and bearings, depending on stress load they'd get hot enough to bust the tyres and cease the bearings. The whole undercarriage would the crumble and the shuttle would take a high speed nose dive into the treadmill = BOOM. By your reasoning one could also say that: The shuttle wouldn't lift since there is not a treadmill in the world large enough. The shuttle wouldn't lift since no pilot would have the balls to pilot it. The shuttle wouldn't lift since no gouvernment in the world would finance such a project. What is wrong with you? This is obviously a theoretical question.
Kao Lei	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:51:00 - [62] The real question is: if there is no lift generated for the plane because the threadmill is turning equally fast.... what would happen when the plane suddenly shuts its engine off... will it fly backwards?
Zor Chayne Hedion University	Posted - 2008.01.26 14:28:00 - [63] Edited by: Zor Chayne on 26/01/2008 14:28:46 Originally by: Cpt Fina By your reasoning one could also say that: The shuttle wouldn't lift since there is not a treadmill in the world large enough. The shuttle wouldn't lift since no pilot would have the balls to pilot it. The shuttle wouldn't lift since no gouvernment in the world would finance such a project. What is wrong with you? This is obviously a theoretical question. Yes it is a theoretical question, but not for the crazyass reasons you've just quoted. From the responses I'm getting, I'm still not sure if the plane/shuttle would take off. -- :(
Plave Okice Gallente Red.	Posted - 2008.01.26 14:57:00 - [64] Awooga! Red Vs Blue
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.26 15:30:00 - [65] Originally by: Zor Chayne Yes it is a theoretical question, but not for the crazyass reasons you've just quoted. From the responses I'm getting, I'm still not sure if the plane/shuttle would take off. Yes you are but that's not what you're after. You just like to keep this thing going....
Zor Chayne Hedion University	Posted - 2008.01.26 16:22:00 - [66] Originally by: Detrol Yes you are but that's not what you're after. You just like to keep this thing going.... please don't troll serious threads, thanks. -- :(
Xavier Iblis	Posted - 2008.01.26 17:34:00 - [67] The one base assumption is that this shuttle provides constant thrust unto infinity. If there was a cap on its thrust, a treadmill could be built to accommodate such a cap. Since that's not very interesting, assume that the shuttle can provide constant thrust. In order for the shuttle to not take off while on top of a treadmill the following must be true: Perfect treadmill: No energy is lost to friction between the runner lane and the internal wheels. Perfect wheels: No energy is lost to friction as the wheels spin against their axles, on the shuttle. Perfect Wheel/Treadmill Interaction: There is high enough friction coefficient such that as there is a perfect correlation between the wheels and the treadmill. AKA, all of the thrust of the shuttle is matched by an equal reaction in the treadmill. Thrust to Wheel Force Interaction: The shuttle must be built in such a way that 100% of its thrust is applied directly to the weight of the wheels. Which would mean the shuttle's center of gravity would need to be between the wheels. All surfaces must be infinitely durable: And not break under the excessive strain being applied to them. If any of these situations did not happen, some of the thrust would be turned to forward velocity. Considering you pick and choose where friction is being applied and make very naive assumptions about the design of the shuttle, it is not likely to happen. What would actually happen: The Engine would start and begin to apply force to the shuttle. The shuttle would move forward until the friction of the wheels and the treadmill managed to counter balance. Depending on the impulse and resultant velocity, aerodynamics and lift factor, this by itself could be enough to allow it to take off. Assuming it doesn't, there would be energy loss as the wheels spun, the treadmill spun, and the wheels and treadmill interacted. You have force being applied to the wheels and treadmill by the friction interaction between them making it want to spin and force being applied by the axles, trying to stop them from spinning. Eventually the coefficient of friction would be exceeded and the shuttle would begin skidding forward. Assuming constant thrust, this would eventually let the shuttle skid forward till it managed to gain lift. What would be implied if the theoretical "shuttle cannot take off" situation were true: As the treadmill and wheels continue to spin and increase their speed, their speed would approach the speed of light and a localized time-dilation effect would ensue. This opens up a huge can of worms involving relativistic physics. Anyone who wants to take a stab at that, be my guest.
Zor Chaine	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:06:00 - [68] Originally by: Xavier Iblis As the treadmill and wheels continue to spin and increase their speed, their speed would approach the speed of light and a localized time-dilation effect would ensue. This opens up a huge can of worms involving relativistic physics. haha, now kids, this post is a great example of what happens if somebody without a clue watches too much sci fi. wow. just wow.
Avery Fatwallet	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:06:00 - [69] Edited by: Avery Fatwallet on 26/01/2008 18:11:23 Originally by: Zor Chaine I have a minmatar shuttle that acts like an airplane in the atmosphere. If the shuttle is sitting on a treadmill and fires up it's engines, it needs to reach take off speed the same as a plane to get off the ground. With the shuttle's wheels turning on the treadmill, does it ever take off? i cant believe its a 3 page thread. (well it HAS been answered on the first page) thrusters generate... well... thrust, you can completely neglect the wheels and the treadmill. (well ofc friction would very very marginally slow down the shuttle, but meh, lets neglect it, its really no biggie) only question is: will the treadmill be long enough, or will the shuttle fall off the end before it reaches take off speed? but! if you made the treadmill go REALLY REALLY REALLY fast, maybe youd change the airflow below any wings? but that is not what that little "riddle" is about. edit: my vote to thread winner goes to "african or european shuttle" post
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:13:00 - [70] Originally by: Skanque H'Or http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060203.html I can't believe he's comparing this junk to the monty hall problem, which is actually a real brain twister. This is high school physics, and not at all brain twisting. He's right about it being worded badly though. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Karentaki Gallente federation navy taskforce	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:33:00 - [71] Edited by: Karentaki on 26/01/2008 18:35:29 The question has been answered many times... the treadmill would have to be going a lot faster than the plane in order for it to have any serious impact on the speed of the plane - this would probably result in the bearings on the wheels melting. Originally by: Zor Chaine Originally by: Xavier Iblis As the treadmill and wheels continue to spin and increase their speed, their speed would approach the speed of light and a localized time-dilation effect would ensue. This opens up a huge can of worms involving relativistic physics. haha, now kids, this post is a great example of what happens if somebody without a clue watches too much sci fi. wow. just wow. You are the one without a clue. As any object approaches the speed of light its mass increases exponentially (mass=infinity when the speed of light is reached) - This results in more and more energy being required to give the same increase in speed. In addition to this, time, as viewed from within the high-speed object, slows down as speed increases. I am unsure as to what would actually happen in this situation, but if the extra mass generates gravity, then it would eventually result in the formation of a small black hole. Of course, the energy required to approach these kinds of speeds is ridiculously large, and we could never provide anywhere near enough, so the point is moot until we can find a way of converting mass directly into energy (fusion possibly). EDIT: Click here for more info on special relativity ======
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:52:00 - [72] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 24/01/2008 20:22:51 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire i also see that machine guns can be fired in space. Its possible to fire machine guns in space really, you just have to inject oxygen into the chamber at the same time the pin hits. It has to be custom modified, so you can't just go get a spacesuit and an uzi and expect it to work :P Lies. There is an oxidizing agent in ALL gunpowders. This is why they can combust so rapidly in a very confined space. Learn to chemistry, noob. As for the shuttle, if the treadmill is as long or longer than the standard runway it would require to take off, then it will take off assuming that it has sufficient thrust to overcome the friction forces in the wheel bearings. Also, perhaps I missed it, but no one said that the plane was trying to fly the opposite direction of the treadmill.
Ealthor Amarr Veyr	Posted - 2008.01.26 19:01:00 - [73] There are multiple situations (all situations assume perfect grip): 1) The wheels and treadmill are free to roll, frictionless. The treadmill only gains speed by interaction with items on it. 2) The treadmill is controlled in some way, the speed is adjusted to attempt to stop the shuttle from taking off. 3) Or, its not a frictionless system and the treadmill is free to roll, with no external forcing. 4) Situation 3, but factor in friction as well. In situation 1) The shuttle's engines provide a thrust, they propel air and exhaust backwards at great speed which in turn causes a force on the engine and thus the shuttle in the opposite direction. If we assume the wheels are frictionless this means that none (zero, nada) of that thrust is transferred into a shear force on the treadmill. This means that the plane will simple roll over the treadmill and the treadmill will not move at all. (Because the movement of the treadmill in this example is caused only by transferral or force from the wheels to the treadmill in the form of shear on the surface of the treadmill, with no friction there is none of this shear and thus no movement of the treadmill). Additionally, where the shuttle to apply the brakes (introducing a large frictional force) at this time THEN the treadmill will start to move, but in the direction of the shuttles movement (the wheels would lock, and the treadmill would roll instead, with a perfect transfer of forces between the two) Situation 2) In this situation the shuttle would, once again propel its self forwards, and due to the frictionless wheels there would be no effect on the shuttle, as shear force from the treadmill would be converted into a radial motion of the wheels (the force is at a tangent to the circular wheels, resulting in perfect transfer) but with no friction between the wheels and the plane there would be no possibility of that radial velocity being converted into a force on the plane. Situation 3) In this situation the introduction of friction into the wheel joints and the treadmill rollers makes it somewhat more complicated. However, if we assume that the treadmill works as a set of rollers under a surface we can then assume that the sum friction of the rollers in the treadmill will be greater than the sum friction of the wheels on the shuttle (simply due to larger numbers of similar mechanisms). Therefore the shear force transferred to the treadmill will be insufficient to overcome the friction in the mechanism (as the shear force transferred is proportional to the friction in the wheels, and the resultant velocity of the treadmill in this situation would be completely damped out by its far larger frictional forces. Situation 4) There is a bit more ambiguity here, while the above points hold true again, where the treadmill to be propelled extremely fast it would be possible to transfer enough shear force through the wheels (due to their frictioned bearings) to balance out the force from the engines, however such a speed would inevitably result in a LARGER shear force being applied to the air above the treadmill, this would propel the air above the treadmill backwards at great speeds, speeds large enough to achieve a take off lift for a shuttle with aero foiled wings. So it would then take off (and promptly crash as it left the fast moving air around the treadmill) I think that about covers it.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.01.27 10:27:00 - [74] Originally by: Zor Chayne From the responses I'm getting, I'm still not sure if the plane/shuttle would take off. Which is the part you don't understand?
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.27 10:28:00 - [75] Originally by: Zor Chayne Originally by: Detrol Yes you are but that's not what you're after. You just like to keep this thing going.... please don't troll serious threads, thanks. Could you point me to the serious thread please... I can't find it.
Kao Lei	Posted - 2008.01.27 10:30:00 - [76] It's actually quite simple. Ofcourse it will take off, it's proven everyday. You take one shuttle, plane if you like and put it on a giant threadmill, a really HUGE one, let's say... 'earth'. Earth is capable of turning around, it's not blocked in it's movement so you could see it as a threadmill. Now, when the plane starts to accelerate on the threadmill, can it take off? I think it can though, the ones I've watched were taking off each time.
Shu Set	Posted - 2008.01.27 18:22:00 - [77] Yes, it'll take off. An easier way to imagine it is like so: If you're holding a toy car on a treadmill, can you still push it forward despite the fact the treadmill is spinning back at you at many more mph than your arm can move? Yes, you'll find that you can push the car forward...because the "thrust" isn't in the tires of the car...it's in your arm. Just as the thrust of the shuttle or plane isn't in its wheels, but in its engine, which is independent of the treadmill motion.
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.01.28 03:49:00 - [78] This thread is ******* fantastic! All it needs are Star Trek Scenarios! _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2008.01.28 04:17:00 - [79] Didn't they cover all of this in your treadmill's users manual? If no, i would probably call the manufacturer. ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
Dreaded Drew	Posted - 2008.01.28 04:50:00 - [80] THIS QUESTION IS STUPID!! AN PLANE WONT TAKE OFF JUST BECAUSE THE WHEELS ARE TURNING!!! AHH! morans!
Dreaded Drew	Posted - 2008.01.28 04:51:00 - [81] [h1]YOU NEED WIND ON THE WINGS! WIND!!![h1] Morans morans morans
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.01.28 04:59:00 - [82] This thread is almost as good as a true classic. Glass: Liquid or solid? (perhaps soquid?) Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
Kessiaan	Posted - 2008.01.28 05:37:00 - [83] Originally by: Suze'Rain rolls eyes a vehicle (ie, car) placed on a perfect treadmill would not move - forward motion is made by torque through the wheels. a jet/rocket engine (aircraft, shuttle) would move forward as the thrust from the engines. as per newton's third law, the backwards thrust of the engine is countered by an equal and opposite reaction, which will be transmitted through the structure of the vehicle to propel the entire thing forward. therefore, irrespective of how fast the treadmill goes, the free-turning wheels will simply spin faster and faster while the vehicle itself accelerates either off the treadmill, or if the treadmill is long enough, up to and beyond take-off velocity. Assuming that neither the wheels or treadmill are perfect, additional factors like fraction might make the shuttle need fractionally more speed to take off, but the difference would be negligible. This. A treadmill will not keep in place any vehicle who's motive force is not transmitted through the wheels. In the case of any aircraft (even a prop plane), a rocket engine, jet engine, whatever, the thrust generated by the engine will accelerate the vehicle forward regardless of the velocity of the treadmill. The wheels will turn at a speed equal to the speed of the treadmill plus the forward speed of the vehicle, and was said in the quote it'll go forward and accelerate off the treadmill, or, if it's long enough, it'll reach a speed where it has enough lift to take off, and do so. ----- My in Eve Profile My BattleClinic Page
MalVortex	Posted - 2008.01.28 06:05:00 - [84] Its disheartening that those who play an Internet spaceship game don't know basic high school level physics.
Lallante Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.28 10:09:00 - [85] Its considerably more disheartening that everyone in this thread (2 exceptions) dont spot that this is an ancient, classic troll and the OP is just stringing it out. Though you are all wrong; The plane MAY OR MAY NOT take off depending on the ratio of its max thrust to max friction with the treadmill, and how much lift the plane requires to takeoff. The force of friction (which is far from negligable in the case of most planes, especially heavy ones) substantially reduces the effect of the thrust on the planes forward momentum and thus the lift generated. This may or may not be enough to prevent the plane taking off, even though the plane WILL move forward. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - Reikoku
JiuTouNiao	Posted - 2008.01.28 11:50:00 - [86] Quote: Lies. There is an oxidizing agent in ALL gunpowders. This is why they can combust so rapidly in a very confined space. Learn to chemistry, noob. QFT, most firearms even work underwater, at least once, they might very well jam after that (semi/automatics). On the topic: ... Nah, no way I'll reply to that! Or maybe... Ok to those diehard stubborn people out there, imagine a submarine. The medium the submarine travels in is water, but our submarine in question has emerged slightly (maybe 15% of it's surface are exposed to air). Would it make a huge difference if there was a strong wind? Except for rough sea which might admittedly ensue the wind would be nothing to worry about. Likewise a plane travels in (and by interacting with) the medium of air.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.29 16:05:00 - [87] Look guys, if a plane could take off from a treadmill, then airports wouldn't have runways, they'd have giant treadmills instead. Similarly, if a shuttle could take off from a treadmill, the NASA wouldn't use massive rockets to reach orbit. QED.
Strangely Brown Cult of the Purple Wolf	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:06:00 - [88] Edited by: Strangely Brown on 29/01/2008 17:10:23 Originally by: Gypsio III Look guys, if a plane could take off from a treadmill, then airports wouldn't have runways, they'd have giant treadmills instead. No they wouldn't, as the treadmill would have to be as long as or longer than the runway. As Lallante said the plane may or may not actually take off, but it WOULD move forward.
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:47:00 - [89] Doesnt anyone have a RC airplane and a treadmill? Look it up on youtube. The plane moves.
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.01.31 13:25:00 - [90] Everyone watch Mythbusters last night? They tested an RC airplane on a conveyor moving at takeoff speed, and it took off. Then they did the same thing with an ultralight and it took off. Myth...Busted!
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.01 12:02:00 - [91] mythbusters have confirmed it, it takes off.
Liver Damage	Posted - 2008.02.01 16:12:00 - [92] Common sense and basic physics confirmed it a long time ago. I'm amazed at the amount of people in here that think it would stay still.
Catelli	Posted - 2008.02.01 16:59:00 - [93] I am perfectly happy to accept that it would take off, but I don't understand why. I don't know physics, all I do know is that a plane generates lift by using it's engines to propel itself forward, moving air over the wings and letting them do their thing. If the plane is on a hypothetical (moves-instantly-counteracting-forward-motion-of-the-plane) treadmill, I can't get it out of my head that the contact with the treadmill would stop it moving forwards, preventing air from moving over the wings and thus preventing lift from being generated. The relationship of the wheels to power to friction don't mean a jot to me, they are just the contact with the ground but it is that contact with the treadmill that I keep thinking stops it from moving forwards. Why would the plane lift off if no air moved over the wings because there is no forward movement. I am genuinely interested why - I'm sure this will come up in a pub sometime. Cheers for your help in helping me understand.
Aaron Ravenwood	Posted - 2008.02.01 18:46:00 - [94] This is really an odd thread. As was said way earlier - the treadmill is irrelevant. An Aircraft moves forward in relationship to the AIR moving through it's thrust mechanism, prop, jet, anti-mater reactor - whatever. The wheels are there simply to keep the fuselage from dragging along the ground. It makes ZERO difference whether the rocket/aircraft/minmatar shuttle is on a tread mill or not. It's thrust will move it forward compared to the space around it - not the ground. The ground is only relevant if it supplies enough friction to the body of the aircraft to keep it from moving forward - which is why aircraft have wheels. The only problem with a Minmitar Shuttle taking off - is that I've seen no evidence that it does have wheels. I have seen evidence however that it can simply hover over it's docking station pad - which means it wouldn't need wheels anyway. ... It should be interesting to see how many more times people have to say the same thing before they stop getting an argument ... or ... how long it takes for the trolls to get tired of this thread ... . . .
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:38:00 - [95] Originally by: Catelli I am perfectly happy to accept that it would take off, but I don't understand why. I don't know physics, all I do know is that a plane generates lift by using it's engines to propel itself forward, moving air over the wings and letting them do their thing. If the plane is on a hypothetical (moves-instantly-counteracting-forward-motion-of-the-plane) treadmill, I can't get it out of my head that the contact with the treadmill would stop it moving forwards, preventing air from moving over the wings and thus preventing lift from being generated. The relationship of the wheels to power to friction don't mean a jot to me, they are just the contact with the ground but it is that contact with the treadmill that I keep thinking stops it from moving forwards. Why would the plane lift off if no air moved over the wings because there is no forward movement. I am genuinely interested why - I'm sure this will come up in a pub sometime. Cheers for your help in helping me understand. You just told us why, though. The ground does not stop the plane from moving because a plane doesnt use the ground to move. It uses the air.

Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.

THIS QUESTION IS STUPID!! AN PLANE WONT TAKE OFF JUST BECAUSE THE WHEELS ARE TURNING!!!