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Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:28:00 - [91] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/01/2008 09:29:24 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You know why your calculations fail? Because thorax has a high damage / tank ratio. Do the same calculations with 2 ships that have more tank and less gallente blaster gank and youll be proving the opposite. Ok, here's one for you, with more tank and less gallente blaster gank. Two Neut domis fight (very popular setup). One is using ECM drones, one is using Ogre IIs. Now, over the course of two minutes, one does 400120 damage points, second does 0120 and totally owns the other guy. Oh, wait. You got it all wrong; the ships with high gank coming from gunnery and low amount of DPS coming from drones coupled with bad sensor str which may benefit from ECM drones more the damage drones - like two Ruptures fighting. Running the numbers on two Ruptures may provide a different insight then running the numbers on high tank / low DPS ship or ships where a significant amount of the DPS comes from drones. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tyfuz	Posted - 2008.01.30 10:42:00 - [92] Perhaps you need ship bonus just to make real good use of them. Me and a friend did tests with a dominix(BS lvl5 skilled). And alot of drone SP. -I was in Dominix, target was a command ship. We did a test with 5x heavy ECM drones and it took 2-5 seconds each time. -I was in Dominix, arget was a BS. It took 5-20 seconds to ecm the target each time we did the test. -All the small EW/logistics drones etc is pretty much worthless. Even the small repair drones take like 40 sec to repair another drone.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:02:00 - [93] Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 28/01/2008 22:21:50 Just wanna point out that outside optimal range which is only 45 km with dampeners (with full skills I think) they are chance dependent. Probing is chance based. There are more things in eve chance based then ECM.. Ok lets take an example here. 2 Thoraxes fight. They are using this fit (to put the thorax using ecm drones at a huge unrealistic advantage). 5 Neutrons II 3 Magstabs II Skills are fairly high in both blasters and drones. One rax is using Hammerhead IIs, the other EC-600 (med ecm drone). The chance the ECM rax has to jam the dps rax is 40% every 20sec. On average it should jam it once every 50sec. During the 12 seconds + 5 seconds (time for the dps rax to lock again) the ECM thorax can deal additional dps to the other rax that is jammed. equal to 5780 damage. During the 67 seconds this jam takes the dps thorax deals 8844 damage with drones. Basicly the ECM thorax trades a probability to have a 200dps advantage for 17 sec for having a 132 dps disadvantage for 50 sec. Now take into consideration a real fit and the ECM thorax will have an even huger disadvantage. It means that the dps thorax will win most such battles. I hope I got that right, kinda tired, might have overlooked smth. Of course ECM drones might be better to maybe jam a tackler. Or in other situations. But I think thats totally fine. You choose a bit protection or dps. Totally fine by me. I do agree on the training time for ewar drones, its way to short. When I realized how short it was I was like "wtf did I train drone interfacing with my alt before training EWAR drones" Numbers are completely off. 5 neutron 3 magstab will get you 500 dps, 5 hammerheads are 158 dps. 41% chance to jam, assuming perfect averages, means you get 46 seconds(5 seconds to lock) out of 100 seconds of jamming. Thats 46*500=23000 dmg averted. In this same period, 5 hammerhead IIs will deal 15800 damage. As you can see, ecm is far superior. Since sensor str does not scale with dps(mega has only 21 sensor str vs thorax's 15, but deals almost twice the gun dps), ECM drones only get MORE effective against battleships.
Elias Modron Rage For Order Nihil-Obstat	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:02:00 - [94] I love my ECM drones. I carry a set in my Thorax and my Myrmidon, and while they don't work every time the 20 seconds of freedom I get when they do successfully jam allows me to pile on the hurt or let a tackled gang mate escape.
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:53:00 - [95] It's funny how ecm drones have been around for a long time..and the whines only start now. Is it becsue there is nothing else left to whine about? Shaddup and play the $%&ing game ffs. You people wont stop until there is no variety left in the goddam game. And then, and then i bet you will still find something else to whine about...ffs. It's tiresome. ------------------------------------------------ 'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.01.30 12:48:00 - [96] it is because when something got nurfed, the playerbase jump into the next powerful thing that they can abuse, thats common knowledge.
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.30 13:53:00 - [97] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic it is because when something got nurfed, the playerbase jump into the next powerful thing that they can abuse, thats common knowledge. QFT.
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:02:00 - [98] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Originally by: Cpt Cosmic it is because when something got nurfed, the playerbase jump into the next powerful thing that they can abuse, thats common knowledge. QFT. Oh really? And if they were so 'overpowered' from the very beggining, how come not many people were using them? Eh? People are starting to get confused between 'effective' and overpowered. Just because something does exactly what it was meant to do..does not mean it's overpowered. Nerf weapons...they kill too good. Nerf combat ships..they kill to good. Nerf everything that works...that will sort the game out eh? The player base must learn to ú$%^ing grow up...seriously. ------------------------------------------------ 'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:14:00 - [99] Originally by: Drek Grapper Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Originally by: Cpt Cosmic it is because when something got nurfed, the playerbase jump into the next powerful thing that they can abuse, thats common knowledge. QFT. Oh really? And if they were so 'overpowered' from the very beggining, how come not many people were using them? Eh? People are starting to get confused between 'effective' and overpowered. Just because something does exactly what it was meant to do..does not mean it's overpowered. Nerf weapons...they kill too good. Nerf combat ships..they kill to good. Nerf everything that works...that will sort the game out eh? The player base must learn to ú$%^ing grow up...seriously. Because before this everyone was fitting ecm in their mid slots. That got nerfed and now people caught up with ecm drone abuse instead. You know they are overpowered and thats why you are valiantly defending them. Youre arguments are exactly as void though as the dont-nerf-myrmidon/eos squad before last nerf bat swing. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:32:00 - [100] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Drek Grapper Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Originally by: Cpt Cosmic it is because when something got nurfed, the playerbase jump into the next powerful thing that they can abuse, thats common knowledge. QFT. Oh really? And if they were so 'overpowered' from the very beggining, how come not many people were using them? Eh? People are starting to get confused between 'effective' and overpowered. Just because something does exactly what it was meant to do..does not mean it's overpowered. Nerf weapons...they kill too good. Nerf combat ships..they kill to good. Nerf everything that works...that will sort the game out eh? The player base must learn to ú$%^ing grow up...seriously. Because before this everyone was fitting ecm in their mid slots. That got nerfed and now people caught up with ecm drone abuse instead. You know they are overpowered and thats why you are valiantly defending them. Youre arguments are exactly as void though as the dont-nerf-myrmidon/eos squad before last nerf bat swing. Oh really...ecm was nerfed what? Nearly 2 years ago? Please. Your personal whine crusade is getting tiresome. Next time someone you gank escapes by using ecm drones try killing them next time instead if whining... it might be quicker. ------------------------------------------------ 'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:41:00 - [101] Originally by: Drek Grapper ... Ok wise guy why did they nerf ecm 2 years ago? Because people whined? Everyone could use them, everyone did. According to anti-whine-squad you cant complain about anything and if things were up to these people we'd still have majorly imbalanced ships like 8x HS gankageddons and stupidly op dps eos. What we have here is basically ecm like 2 years ago but its in our drone bays instead of our mid slots. All other ew drones are crap just like all other ew was crap before the ecm nerf. Did ccp boost the others or did ccp nerf ecm? They nerfed ecm and they need to do the same with these drones. So what is your malfunction? You want to roll back mid slot ecm nerf too? Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:53:00 - [102] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 30/01/2008 16:52:47 Originally by: Drek Grapper stuff because after the ecm nurf all jumped into damps, now these are not useful anymore because they got nurfed too and ecm modules are only good on dedicated ships that means every one use ecm drones mostly. another reason is that some crazy pilots use marauders for pvp and they have low sensors strengh = ecm drones are a nice defense against them.
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:56:00 - [103] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Drek Grapper ... Ok wise guy why did they nerf ecm 2 years ago? Because people whined? Everyone could use them, everyone did. According to anti-whine-squad you cant complain about anything and if things were up to these people we'd still have majorly imbalanced ships like 8x HS gankageddons and stupidly op dps eos. What we have here is basically ecm like 2 years ago but its in our drone bays instead of our mid slots. All other ew drones are crap just like all other ew was crap before the ecm nerf. Did ccp boost the others or did ccp nerf ecm? They nerfed ecm and they need to do the same with these drones. So what is your malfunction? You want to roll back mid slot ecm nerf too? Ooh lets not get our panties in a twist ok...ecm drones can be killed can they not? There is a downside to fitting them...you loose drone dps. So no, they are not the same. And to be honest there is a fundamental difference between 'overpowered' and 'effective'. This might be your problem. you can't seem to tell the difference. Ecm drones are very effective at what they do...unstacked Gyro's or Heatsinks where blatantly overpowered it's easy to see that. Like i said before...you are just sore because someone you could have beaten got away by using his ecm drones. Well... sorry to hear about it. F%$úing get over it. ------------------------------------------------ 'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:01:00 - [104] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer we'd still have majorly imbalanced ships like 8x HS gankageddons and stupidly op dps eos. You cannot possibly be comparing the 8 HS geddon to the Eos. I mean, it was a LITTLE BIT out of line, but, come on. Seriously, people whine about any effective thing, whether it be overly effective or not, and even if it's only effective through their own ignorance and laziness. -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Update: I bought a Datahand for RSI, and I now suck at typing (so I don't post as much)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.30 20:41:00 - [105] Originally by: Drek Grapper Ooh lets not get our panties in a twist ok...ecm drones can be killed can they not? There is a downside to fitting them...you loose drone dps. So no, they are not the same. And to be honest there is a fundamental difference between 'overpowered' and 'effective'. This might be your problem. you can't seem to tell the difference. Ecm drones are very effective at what they do...unstacked Gyro's or Heatsinks where blatantly overpowered it's easy to see that. Like i said before...you are just sore because someone you could have beaten got away by using his ecm drones. Well... sorry to hear about it. F%$úing get over it. Oh here it comes: The patronize-mode of the anti-nerf-squad. clap First off you dont have a clue what youre talking about and youve obviously havent read any of the other posts in this thread. How are you going to shoot ecm drones when they are jamming you? Lock, wait for lock, web, shoot before another jam or possible death while the enemy is pounding you? Smartbombs? They dont work near gates or station and suicidal to use in empire space. Do you play this game? I think not. Do you have a clue what youre talking about? Not really. Are you a troll? Definately. And get this into your thick skull: If something is so effective that basically every build uses them there is something wrong with it. Yes MWDs and Cap Boosters should be looked at too because EVERYONE is fitting them. ECM-drones in especially low-sec and empire is a VERY common sight in peoples pvp fits. GTFO and troll somewhere else. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.30 20:43:00 - [106] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer we'd still have majorly imbalanced ships like 8x HS gankageddons and stupidly op dps eos. You cannot possibly be comparing the 8 HS geddon to the Eos. I mean, it was a LITTLE BIT out of line, but, come on. Seriously, people whine about any effective thing, whether it be overly effective or not, and even if it's only effective through their own ignorance and laziness. -Liang EOS "little" bit out of line? No way, it had redicilous tank+gank at the same time. Whats all this talk about effective? No youre not thinking out of the box by fitting nifty ecm-drones just like you werent thinking out of the box because you fit 8xHS on your geddon back in the days. EOS, Myrm and geddon were overpowered. They got nerfed. Ecm-drones are overpowered, they are going to GET nerfed when ccp gets to it (wich may sadly take years). Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.30 21:23:00 - [107] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Drek Grapper Ooh lets not get our panties in a twist ok...ecm drones can be killed can they not? There is a downside to fitting them...you loose drone dps. So no, they are not the same. And to be honest there is a fundamental difference between 'overpowered' and 'effective'. This might be your problem. you can't seem to tell the difference. Ecm drones are very effective at what they do...unstacked Gyro's or Heatsinks where blatantly overpowered it's easy to see that. Like i said before...you are just sore because someone you could have beaten got away by using his ecm drones. Well... sorry to hear about it. F%$úing get over it. Oh here it comes: The patronize-mode of the anti-nerf-squad. clap First off you dont have a clue what youre talking about and youve obviously havent read any of the other posts in this thread. How are you going to shoot ecm drones when they are jamming you? Lock, wait for lock, web, shoot before another jam or possible death while the enemy is pounding you? Smartbombs? They dont work near gates or station and suicidal to use in empire space. Do you play this game? I think not. Do you have a clue what youre talking about? Not really. Are you a troll? Definately. And get this into your thick skull: If something is so effective that basically every build uses them there is something wrong with it. Yes MWDs and Cap Boosters should be looked at too because EVERYONE is fitting them. ECM-drones in especially low-sec and empire is a VERY common sight in peoples pvp fits. GTFO and troll somewhere else. Oh here it comes...i am teh pwnzor forum warrior who sits on thine high horse and spouts my truths down apon thy unworthy beings below. Lol...yeah nerf it all. I think you are talking this forum stuff waaay to seriously mate. Why don't you go and have a little lie down ok...there there. Right back to teh topic...I don't agree that ecm drones overpowered. I might not sit and agonise over the maths all day trying to prove it either...but thats just me. Get over it. In the mean time enjoy prancing around teh forums looking for the next big nerf...soon, (if you try real hard) the game will be just how you want it hehe! ------------------------------------------------ 'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.30 21:26:00 - [108] Originally by: Drek Grapper ... Fear my forum-warrior powers Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.31 00:31:00 - [109] Edited by: General Coochie on 31/01/2008 00:35:56 Quote: Numbers are completely off. 5 neutron 3 magstab will get you 500 dps, 5 hammerheads are 158 dps. 41% chance to jam, assuming perfect averages, means you get 46 seconds(5 seconds to lock) out of 100 seconds of jamming. Thats 46500=23000 dmg averted. In this same period, 5 hammerhead IIs will deal 15800 damage. As you can see, ecm is far superior. Since sensor str does not scale with dps(mega has only 21 sensor str vs thorax's 15, but deals almost twice the gun dps), ECM drones only get MORE effective against battleships. My whole eve life I thought ECM jammed for 12 sec. Oh well 20 sec it is. Lets say we got a jam after 50sec, in reality we get it less often then that due to how chance work. And also using EFT max skills for the dps isn't cool. Think I forgot putting void into the blasters though ok so 486 25 = 12150 for ecm. 140 * 75 = 10500 for dps. bit of a favor towards ECM drones. A lot more SP invested in gunnery here though then in drones. and you need that to tip the balance over. I just felt that when using ecm drones on alt they omg sucked. I don't really have an opinion I wanna argue for, I never use em myself. lets use the mega now. I will use this fit as it seems to be somewhat popular. Since everyone is so horny about using EFT lv V preset lets go with that. 7 Ions II, void (neut whatever) booster, web scram, mwd LAR * 2, kin, therm, expl, 2 mag stabs II. rigg: aux aux, nano Turret dps: 791 dps according to EFT Drone DPS (5 * ogre II) : 316 dps. Global chance to jam another mega with 5 EC-900 drones every 20 sec: 40% Lets say first jam comes after 50sec, and lasts for 20 + 5 sec (locking time) Dmg mega with ECM drones will deal during these 25 seconds : 19775 Dmg mega with drones will deal only from drones in the 75sec: 23700 however after 70sec ecm drones will start their jamming again, those 5 sec megas locking the other mega have to be accounted for. 5 * 791 = 3955. so there really doesn't seem to be an advantage here. Consider you need BS V, large hybrid turret, support dps skills and the specilation skills to V to get even with drones. Also in theory you dont have a 100% chance to jam every 50sec. Its lower then that but I cant be arsed calculating it. The mega with ECM drones can't break the other megas tank. ECM mega does have the opportunity to disengage which is a nice asset. But its almost like putting a warp core stab on your mega. If you gimp yourself so much dps wise that you can't break another megas tank 1v1 but you can disengage from it what have you earned? ECM mega could go more gank, but then he relies on luck to get the upper hand. Other mega is still doing a healthy dps that he wont be able to tank. The versatility ECM drones bring is a good argument for using them, you might be able to jam tacklers, disengage from combat, help gang by jamming some enemy support ship. But you are also turning down 316 dps. For the mega setup above thats almost 50% extra dps. So did I do it right this time? Anything I overlooked? Posting in middle of the night again so probably made some misstakes. edit: Ogre IIs also have 3.4 times more hp then EC Wasps, ECM drones can be countered with SB 4 cycles = 30 sec to make em pop. In theory they haven't even jammed you yet.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.31 00:51:00 - [110] Originally by: General Coochie But you are also turning down 316 dps by not using 5 Ogre IIs. For the mega setup above thats almost 50% extra dps (on ship thats got a damage bonus to turrets). . Thing is, 316dps with MAX skills. Now compare the SP you need for that dps to how much sp you need to use ecm drones. Now take the amount of SP you need to train ecm drones and put it into combat drones and THEN calculate the dps youre losing out on. Its right there you gotta do the balancing, not at max skills. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.31 00:59:00 - [111] Edited by: General Coochie on 31/01/2008 01:08:12 Edited by: General Coochie on 31/01/2008 01:05:26 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: General Coochie But you are also turning down 316 dps by not using 5 Ogre IIs. For the mega setup above thats almost 50% extra dps (on ship thats got a damage bonus to turrets). . Thing is, 316dps with MAX skills. Now compare the SP you need for that dps to how much sp you need to use ecm drones. Now take the amount of SP you need to train ecm drones and put it into combat drones and THEN calculate the dps youre losing out on. Its right there you gotta do the balancing, not at max skills. Well lets say we put same amount of DPS in gunnery and compare again? Besides Ogre IIs with 250 dps + (which still is a lot ) isn't that far away from using heavy ECM drones. I already said I agreed that it was to easy to skill of EWAR drones considering how effective they are. I don't think that should mean that ewar drones should get nerfed, their training time maybe should though. And about your dps/tank ratio. yeah a tanked ship could use ECM drones to improve its tank much like a gank ship can use dps drones to improve its gank. I don't see anything wrong with that. CAre to expand on this idea further? Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture here.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.31 00:59:00 - [112] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 31/01/2008 01:02:07 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Do you play this game? I think not. Actually, I saw him in space in low-sec, fought him even. I never see the whine brigade in space, though. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Do you have a clue what youre talking about? Not really. Are you a troll? Definately. You are. You are both ignoring numbers and counter-arguments and are just, basically, trolling. So GTFO and troll someone else. Troll CAOD or something, so the rest of the forum can happily ignore you. You know very well that certain PvP mechanics necessiate certain fittings (think warp distruptor + web for starters, then MWD to try to counter this / burn back to gates etc). These are, like it or not, necessary due to how this game works. Of course, you could just troll and say 'onoz, warp distruptor iz overpowered, everyone fits it!', but that doesn't make you any more credible then Johnny JoJo. I suppose alternatives to the gank/tank spreadsheet the whine squad wants to turn EvE into must be overpowered by definition. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Thing is, 316dps with MAX skills. Now compare the SP you need for that dps to how much sp you need to use ecm drones. Now take the amount of SP you need to train ecm drones and put it into combat drones and THEN calculate the dps youre losing out on. Its right there you gotta do the balancing, not at max skills. Of course, when you do the 'all L5' thing, it's a 100% valid argument. Although EWAR drones could use a somewhat higher SP requirement plus a boost to the other kind of EWAR drones. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.31 01:06:00 - [113] Originally by: Cpt Branko Troll CAOD or something, so the rest of the forum can happily ignore you. CAOD?! No way, big walls of text striking lyria for 9654649 damage. Thats a scary place Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.31 11:47:00 - [114] Also what you wanna compare is how much dps ECM drones saves you from. They save you from the same amount of dps a standard mega fit does in turret dps, compared to the damage you could have inflicted using Ogre IIs. And this is with MAX skills. If we were to consider using OGRE IIs with gallente drone spec at say IV. and same amount of SP in turrets how would the results look then? Probably even more in favor of the Ogres as turrets are a lot harder to skill up. Take into account you need BS at lv V as well to get these numbers. If your opponent has less then 715 dps in turrets you will save yourself from less dps then you could have inflicted if you were using dps drones instead. I think thats an reasonable trade off? (excluding the low sp requirement of ECM drones)
Raxxius Maelstrom	Posted - 2008.01.31 14:03:00 - [115] The other thing to remeber is that ECM drones give you a GTFO clause. While an ECM drone Mega may or may not beat an Ogre Mega on paper, in practice the ECM drone mega is going to be able to run from the engagement at least some of the time, while the Ogre mega is forced to play till the end even if it's clear things are going south for him. Survivability is a major factor in this game, it's THE main reason Nano-hacs are so popular. Don't ignore it.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:07:00 - [116] I heartily approve of ECM drones. Obviously they need to be more effective than DPS drones in certain situations or everyone would always only bring DPS drones, which is boring. DPS is always good. Always. ECM drones aren't as good in situations where all that matters is you squeezing out that last bit of dps.

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