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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.01.25 04:38:00 -
[1]
ECM drones the new multispec for your drone bay?
ive seen a huge increase in the use of ECM drones in mid to small pvp gangs, and it sucks.
ive NEVER EVER seen any damp drones being used, just ecm drones and in a way you cant blame anyone fitting them, they work VERY well.
nw its not the strength, more the number of chances.
Its making pvp predictable and dull, and dont say 'fit eccm' because unless you hav 3 or more 95% boosters you wont notice any difference.
please ccp, take a look 
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
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Posted - 2008.01.25 05:27:00 -
[2]
I'd consider, y'know, blowing up the ECM drones. ECCM works fine for me too. I think it's more an issue of other EW drones not being effective enough than ECM drones being too powerful. And it would seem to me that PvP where everyone just used dps drones would be more "predictable and dull."
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:11:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad
I'd consider, y'know, blowing up the ECM drones. ECCM works fine for me too. I think it's more an issue of other EW drones not being effective enough than ECM drones being too powerful. And it would seem to me that PvP where everyone just used dps drones would be more "predictable and dull."
QFT. Also, it'd be nice if the ECM drones were affected by your spec skills.... woot!
In the end, though, I find smartbombs to be more than sufficient for dealing with ECM drones.
-Liang
--
If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt.
Consider yourself warned. ^_^ |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:16:00 -
[4]
yeah true, ecm drones work, they cant be smart bombed in empire or near gates, cant be shot while jammed etc etc
it still stands they jam carriers and such far to well, they are the most used EW drone by about 99% (meaning theres a total and obvious ballence issue here) and they ... well they suck
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Barasu
Minmatar
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:33:00 -
[5]
Sensor damp drones don't make sense in small pvp gangs as alot of that fighting is upclose and drone range effects those. ECM drones are just easier and work better. Things don't have much hit points though.
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:40:00 -
[6]
I saw some damp drones outside of 1V-LI2 next to a wreck maybe thats why they aren't used that much. Ewar drones in general are all pretty suck except ecm drones
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Avery Fatwallet
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:43:00 -
[7]
cant damp drones be useful if you already have some ecm dromes in the mix?
you know... increasing the locktime after a successful jam and stuff...
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DarkFollower
Amarr
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:48:00 -
[8]
did they buff them in any way or i just had some bad luck?got almost perma jammed in a fight by 5 lights,
i know last time i was using them ,lights were were preaty based on luck
Cap rechargers on PvP ships Suxxor monkey ballzorz!!
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: DarkFollower
did they buff them in any way or i just had some bad luck?got almost perma jammed in a fight by 5 lights,
i know last time i was using them ,lights were were preaty based on luck
Black cat in your house?,Broken mirrors?, Stepped on any *****s?
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:55:00 -
[10]
Originally by: DarkFollower
did they buff them in any way or i just had some bad luck?got almost perma jammed in a fight by 5 lights,
i know last time i was using them ,lights were were preaty based on luck
This is why PVP'ing in frigs and marauders sucks. ;-)
-Liang
--
If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt.
Consider yourself warned. ^_^ |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.01.25 07:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: DarkFollower
did they buff them in any way or i just had some bad luck?got almost perma jammed in a fight by 5 lights,
i know last time i was using them ,lights were were preaty based on luck
This is why PVP'ing in frigs and marauders sucks. ;-)
-Liang
i got pemer jammed in a bs and a command ship recently my light ecm drones. but thats not a basis for this thread, its a general overview.
ive been jamed occasionally, and jammed with uber eccm, everyones doing it and if you even slightly down on numbers ecm drones make up for it x5 per player extra
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mama guru
Gallente
Corp 1 Allstars
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:10:00 -
[12]
Stay away from my Vespa EC-600 please
*signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected])
EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:12:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 25/01/2008 08:13:10
EC-600s is by far the best option for ships with 50 or 75 m3 of drone space(of which there are many). IIRC the math works out to something like 25% chance to jam a BS every 20 seconds with 5 EC-600s.
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mama guru
Gallente
Corp 1 Allstars
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:19:00 -
[14]
Edited by: mama guru on 25/01/2008 08:18:59
Originally by: Gamesguy
Edited by: Gamesguy on 25/01/2008 08:13:10
EC-600s is by far the best option for ships with 50 or 75 m3 of drone space(of which there are many). IIRC the math works out to something like 25% chance to jam a BS every 20 seconds with 5 EC-600s.
Yeah, i think the ECM drones still use the old "multispec" maths(and rightfully so) or whatever you wanna call it. As in back in early 2006 etc...
*signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected])
EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: mama guru
Edited by: mama guru on 25/01/2008 08:18:59
Originally by: Gamesguy
Edited by: Gamesguy on 25/01/2008 08:13:10
EC-600s is by far the best option for ships with 50 or 75 m3 of drone space(of which there are many). IIRC the math works out to something like 25% chance to jam a BS every 20 seconds with 5 EC-600s.
Yeah, i think the ECM drones still use the old "multispec" maths(and rightfully so) or whatever you wanna call it. As in back in early 2006 etc...
Assuming a nice and round 20 sensor str, the math is
1-(1-(1.5/20))^5=32.3% chance to jam every 20 seconds.
Thats basically better than anything else you could fit in 50 m3 of drone space.
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Onyx Asablot
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.01.25 10:26:00 -
[16]
ECM drones are def effective, but don't forget dropping 5xhammerhead II will reduce a ships DPS quite badly too.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.01.25 10:56:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/01/2008 10:58:33
Originally by: Dr Fighter
ECM drones the new multispec for your drone bay?
ive seen a huge increase in the use of ECM drones in mid to small pvp gangs, and it sucks.
ive NEVER EVER seen any damp drones being used, just ecm drones and in a way you cant blame anyone fitting them, they work VERY well.
Well, wouldn't it be boring as hell if everyone used the damage drones?
Anyway, other EWAR drones suck. Web drones can be effective *sometimes*, but they are a bit weak. Damp drones are complete garbage for some reason...
At any rate, EWAR drones vs damage drones are two very valid choices. Damage drones, after all, have a few benefits over guns, like the fact you can jam the ship and drones keep on going.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.25 11:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: DarkFollower
did they buff them in any way or i just had some bad luck?got almost perma jammed in a fight by 5 lights,
i know last time i was using them ,lights were were preaty based on luck
This is why PVP'ing in frigs and marauders sucks. ;-)
-Liang
No it also sucks to be in a battleship using an ECCM and getting jammed by 5-10 light ecm drones. They are not balanced with the other drones and they will get nerfed at some point because everyone in empire wars and low sec is basically fitting them if they dont trust their guns enough to do the work for them.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.01.25 11:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
No it also sucks to be in a battleship using an ECCM and getting jammed by 5-10 light ecm drones. They are not balanced with the other drones and they will get nerfed at some point because everyone in empire wars and low sec is basically fitting them if they dont trust their guns enough to do the work for them.
LOL.
Anyway, I see a lot of people using damage drones. I occasionally see web drones for very specific purposes. I see ECM drones.
It makes me think that other ewar drones (dampener ones, for instance) are broken and in need of love.
As for ECM drones vs damage drones; depending on what ewar you have available in gang, both can be useful. Also, BS pilots who fit smartbombs on their ships can quite easily dispose of them (being they're much much more fragile then damage drones), and if you were relying on them you're rather screwed.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
sh4rp ov3rvolt
Hikage Corporation
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.25 11:27:00 -
[20]
Just fit a smartbomb and stop the whine... 
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.25 11:28:00 -
[21]
Painter drones arent terrible, but damp/TD/neut drones are fairly worthless.
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Miranda Ceres
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Posted - 2008.01.25 11:31:00 -
[22]
The reason that ECM drones are effective isn't because they are overpowered, it's because people use a lot of them. You're effectively rolling the dice a lot of times hoping to get Yahtzee!
More often than not, you don't get Yahtzee and you die - all those times you never hear about. The one time someone gets a Yahtzee! and a Thorax jams and kills a much more expensive ship... someone screams loudly about how overpowered they are and how they need to be nerfed.
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Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.25 12:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
No it also sucks to be in a battleship using an ECCM and getting jammed by 5-10 light ecm drones. They are not balanced with the other drones and they will get nerfed at some point because everyone in empire wars and low sec is basically fitting them if they dont trust their guns enough to do the work for them.
LOL.
Anyway, I see a lot of people using damage drones. I occasionally see web drones for very specific purposes. I see ECM drones.
It makes me think that other ewar drones (dampener ones, for instance) are broken and in need of love.
As for ECM drones vs damage drones; depending on what ewar you have available in gang, both can be useful. Also, BS pilots who fit smartbombs on their ships can quite easily dispose of them (being they're much much more fragile then damage drones), and if you were relying on them you're rather screwed.
No, no, no. No one in their right mind messes with smartbombs in empire wars. There are always people around you, containers, cloaked alts. No way.
You know why ecm drones are overpowered? Because even light drones can jam a battleship and it will take a battleship quite some time to relock his enemies. The loss of drones dps by fitting 5x light ecm drones for example is way too little.
There should be a restriction like: Light ecm can only jam frig size, Medium only cruiser/bc size and Large battleships and below.
This would make people think and BALANCE their fitting (just like the defensive side considers to fit a SB or not) like this...
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.01.25 12:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
No, no, no. No one in their right mind messes with smartbombs in empire wars. There are always people around you, containers, cloaked alts. No way.
Wouldn't know, can't even go to high-sec.
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
You know why ecm drones are overpowered? Because even light drones can jam a battleship and it will take a battleship quite some time to relock his enemies. The loss of drones dps by fitting 5x light ecm drones for example is way too little.
Light damage drones are awesomely useful for killing small things.
Yes, they're less useful versus BS. However, if loss of DPS is such an issue due to being jammed and losing lock, you can use drone-based BS and let drones eat away.
You can use EWAR of you own, anyway. If they're using ECM drones, well, after being jammed by a falcon/rook/whatever, they deliver 0 DPS. I think your gang composition/tactics are problematic, imo.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.25 12:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
No it also sucks to be in a battleship using an ECCM and getting jammed by 5-10 light ecm drones. They are not balanced with the other drones and they will get nerfed at some point because everyone in empire wars and low sec is basically fitting them if they dont trust their guns enough to do the work for them.
dude, that was bad luck.
ECM drones are effective, but a smartbomb, or even FOF light missiles work very well on them.
and considering that many ships have a spare launcher slot, you can slap an assault launcher there with FoF lights.
you can also use your own drones to kill them.
anyways, by using ECM drones, I'm sacrificing firepower.
Oh and I don't trust my guns? tell that when I'm engaging my gank deimos with zero tank vs another ship. I need a way to know that, at least, I have a semblance of chance of surviving that encounter.
ECM drones are fine. boost players.
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planetary interaction idea! |
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.25 14:21:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Grimpak
anyways, by using ECM drones, I'm sacrificing firepower.
Oh and I don't trust my guns? tell that when I'm engaging my gank deimos with zero tank vs another ship. I need a way to know that, at least, I have a semblance of chance of surviving that encounter.
QFT. A lot of people use ECM drones as their main form of tanking on gank ships. It doesn't always work, but it's better than nothing ta all.
Grimpak: do you use medium ECM drones or a flight of light ECMs and a flight of light DPS drones?
--------------------
"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.01.25 14:32:00 -
[27]
Let's face it - ECM Drones NEED those chances to lock becuase their jam strength is PITIFUL. 5 Heavy ECM drones are roughly as effective as 1 racial loaded onto an ECM ship, and I'll tell ya that one racial doesn't yield a very effective jam rate. If someone is willing to give up lots of drone space to keep you locked down (thus nerfing their own DPS in the process) then it seems to be a legitimate tactic.
ECM drones are protected by dreams and faries if they fail to jam (and let's face it - it takes LOTS of ECM drones to lock you down as effectively as even the lowly blackbird). Smartbombs are one incredible solution, though they of course aren't the "it always works" solution. Another possibility as actually carrying around some FoF missiles. Given how weak ECM drones are in general, FoF's should tear them apart with ease. Failing that, you probably have drones of your own that you can use. And of course, nothing stops you from using ECM drones or ECM boats of your own.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.25 15:05:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Grimpak: do you use medium ECM drones or a flight of light ECMs and a flight of light DPS drones?
med ecm drones all the way, and even so it doesn't stop me of making me scared sometimes.
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planetary interaction idea! |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.25 16:44:00 -
[29]
LOL
Just
LOL
How 1-dimensional is your gang? Do you not fly anti-support ships? Does you gang include drones? Did you know your drones can be use against other drones?
Have you tried a Destroyer? You know what all its small guns are great at? Popping small fast targets like ECM drones!
People complain about AF not having a role - set them up as snipers for more durable destroyers...
A gang isn't just gank and ewar - you NEED anti-support.
Think outside the box and L2P.
Just...LOL
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Delictum 23216
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Posted - 2008.01.25 17:20:00 -
[30]
The only reason why people aren't using Tracking and Damping drones is because Stacking makes tracking/damping drones useless.
ECM drones don't have that problem, so using them en masse is not a problem.
Kind of like playing shooty Orks in 40k. You only hit if you roll 6s (on a 6-sided dice), but that doesn't matter because you have lots and lots of dice to roll.
______________________________________________
-You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Amberly Coteaz
Amarr
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.01.25 17:47:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Kind of like playing shooty Orks in 40k. You only hit if you roll 6s (on a 6-sided dice), but that doesn't matter because you have lots and lots of dice to roll.
Alien filth *aims boltgun*
If you find yourself in a fair fight, something has gone wrong |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.01.25 20:00:00 -
[32]
Kill the ECM drones with your own drones, or smartbombs, or FoF missiles.
Equip a single ECCM module and immediately become twice as hard to jam.
I'm glad to see people using ECM drones. Sure beats everyone using ogre II's.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.25 20:09:00 -
[33]
Boost the other EWar drones.
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.01.25 21:13:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Boost the other EWar drones.
The main problem with the other ewar drones is that the attribute that they're affecting is stacking penalized. Thus, only three damp drones are useful, only three tracking disruptor drones are useful, three webbie drones, and only three target painting drones are useful.
The obvious solution is to 'boost' those drones strength individually so that, when stacking penalized, the five of them are roughly equivalent to the effect you see from five ECM drones of the appropriate size.
However, sensor damp drones and tracking disruptor drones would become 'overpowered', because they still affect both attributes - while ECM drones would still scale better. No matter how many of the other types of ewar drones you throw at someone, you'll really only get the effect of about 3-4 of them. Thus, 500 light ECM drones are infinitely better than 500 heavy damp/td drones.
The next 'obvious' solution would be to add together all the drones that are trying to ecm someone in a specific time period, stacking penalize them, and apply them together at the same time.
The obvious problems with that is that your drones would sit there in space for some random amount of time before doing anything at all, each cycle from the drones would be individually harder to resist, and clever timing of releasing drone waves might exacerbate said problem.
Or we could just accept that ECM drones are exceptionally good at what they do (which is the best solution by far), and that they scale better than other ewar drones (which is true with regards to ECM and other forms of ewar anyway).
I think, overall, that I'm still a fan of making 5 ECM drones roughly equivalent to 5 <insert ewar type here> drones of the same size - but I don't think that it will really change anything.
ECM is simply that much better (natively) than the other forms of ewar.
-Liang
--
If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt.
Consider yourself warned. ^_^ |
Lux Exterior
Gallente
Critical Analysis
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.01.25 23:31:00 -
[35]
I think boosting the other ewar drones is justified, why should painter drones be stacked, they're just spotlighting a target, five of them should be five times as effective as one. The problem with jammers is that you basically have five weak multispecs with no cap cost and no mids used, therefore all you sacrifice is some damage.
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.01.25 23:32:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lux Exterior
I think boosting the other ewar drones is justified, why should painter drones be stacked, they're just spotlighting a target, five of them should be five times as effective as one. The problem with jammers is that you basically have five weak multispecs with no cap cost and no mids used, therefore all you sacrifice is some damage.
"all you sacrifice is some damage"  If by some, you mean alot.
-Liang
--
If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt.
Consider yourself warned. ^_^ |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Enuma Elish.
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 23:48:00 -
[37]
I'm still in two minds.
I use 'em, and I like 'em.
And I think they're very powerful.
But ... 50m3 of dronebay, is what, 150dps?
That's a significant amount on _any_ size of ship.
Morover it's damage output that's capless, requires no weapons locks, and can be viably applied to smaller ships.
Not that I have many ships I can fly with 50m3 of drone bay. Actually, there's really not many 'sub BS' ships, that can carry that many drones. Those that do, tend to be 'drone carriers' and thus give up _even more_ damage output to use 'em.
*shrug*. I like ECM drones, and use 'em ... a fair bit. I think there's a fair case to be made that they're less sucky than the other ewar drones - damp, TD and TP drones suffer stacking, which make them just plain rubbish.
And certainly, ECM drones are on the easy side to actually use. I was waiting for this thread to come along since they nerfed the jammer strength, without doing so one the drone jamming strength.
But ... in general, I don't think it's as bad as you think. They're handy, and really good if you consider your dronebay 'free', but.. well if you think of dronebay as anti-smaller ship dps, and a useful quantity of extra damage output, it's not quite as clear cut.
I think I'd take 5 warrior IIs in some situations, and 5 EC-300s in others.
id' take 5 hammer IIs vs. 5x Ec-600s, and sometimes use one, sometimes use the other.
To me, that says they're balanced, ish.
But too easy to use IMO. Let's make 'em something that requires specialising in, rather than the rather ludicrous drones 1, electronic warfare 3 prereqs they've got at the moment.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.01.25 23:53:00 -
[38]
Originally by: James Lyrus
But too easy to use IMO. Let's make 'em something that requires specialising in, rather than the rather ludicrous drones 1, electronic warfare 3 prereqs they've got at the moment.
drones 5, electonic warfare 4, electronic warfare drone interfacing 1.
Maybe a good alternative would be to let drone interfacing affect the ewar strength of ewar drones, and lower the regular base. of course, since drone ships give up so much to use ewar drones, it only makes sense that the drone ships ship skill should also apply (such that the myrmidon etc get an extra 10%/level to ecm strength). =)
-Liang
--
If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt.
Consider yourself warned. ^_^ |
Zana Kito
|
Posted - 2008.01.26 00:23:00 -
[39]
Drones are short range weapon systems.
Would you use damps at point blank range? Maybe..
Would you use horribly stacking penalized damps at point blank? No.
ECM drones are effective. Leave it alone and "boost patch" the other crap options. |
Dr Fighter
|
Posted - 2008.01.26 13:22:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
The only reason why people aren't using Tracking and Damping drones is because Stacking makes tracking/damping drones useless.
BAM! there it is
while all the other EW drones get worse the more there are of them (and i mean the 4 max stacking should simply not be applied to something which is nearly always in groups of 5, thats just plain silly).
ECM drones get ALOT better the more there of them, wheres the stacking penalty? WHERE?
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Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.01.27 14:07:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
No, no, no. No one in their right mind messes with smartbombs in empire wars. There are always people around you, containers, cloaked alts. No way.
Wouldn't know, can't even go to high-sec.
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
You know why ecm drones are overpowered? Because even light drones can jam a battleship and it will take a battleship quite some time to relock his enemies. The loss of drones dps by fitting 5x light ecm drones for example is way too little.
Light damage drones are awesomely useful for killing small things.
Yes, they're less useful versus BS. However, if loss of DPS is such an issue due to being jammed and losing lock, you can use drone-based BS and let drones eat away.
You can use EWAR of you own, anyway. If they're using ECM drones, well, after being jammed by a falcon/rook/whatever, they deliver 0 DPS. I think your gang composition/tactics are problematic, imo.
-No light drones are not awsome at killing stuff, everyone that is able will use 5xlight drones including you, especially in low sec/empire. Dont lie.
-Everyone doesnt have a domi mkay? And besides chance is you get jammed before you get your drones off. You know this is a crap argument, dont bring it up just to prove an already lost argument.
-Use own ecm? Well this is the point, there shouldnt be a module or drone that should be fit on every ship because its soooo good.
-You dont get the point. The point is that a half-assed thorax pilot can pack a bunch of medium ecm drones and totally mess up a eccm'd battleships combat performance.
-This is overpowered because now we are back at the point where everyone, this time with drone bay, can fit ecm on his ship. Just like people were fitting ecm in mids back before the nerf.
How much harm do 5xdamage drones do to a ship? Thats exactly the type of damage they should do ecm wise. Wich means 5xlight ecm drones shouldnt even touch a battleship.
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sdthujfg
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 14:09:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/01/2008 21:24:04
Originally by: Hannobaal
Boost the other EWar drones.
The main problem with the other ewar drones is that the attribute that they're affecting is stacking penalized. Thus, only three damp drones are useful, only three tracking disruptor drones are useful, three webbie drones, and only three target painting drones are useful.
The obvious solution is to 'boost' those drones strength individually so that, when stacking penalized, the five of them are roughly equivalent to the effect you see from five ECM drones of the appropriate size.
However, sensor damp drones and tracking disruptor drones would become 'overpowered', because they still affect both attributes - while ECM drones would still scale better. No matter how many of the other types of ewar drones you throw at someone, you'll really only get the effect of about 3-4 of them. Thus, 500 light ECM drones are infinitely better than 500 heavy damp/td drones.
The next 'obvious' solution would be to add together all the drones that are trying to ecm someone in a specific time period, stacking penalize them, and apply them together at the same time.
The obvious problems with that is that your drones would sit there in space for some random amount of time before doing anything at all, each cycle from the drones would be individually harder to resist, and clever timing of releasing drone waves might exacerbate said problem.
Or we could just accept that ECM drones are exceptionally good at what they do (which is the best solution by far), and that they scale better than other ewar drones (which is true with regards to ECM and other forms of ewar anyway).
I think, overall, that I'm still a fan of making 5 ECM drones roughly equivalent to 5 <insert ewar type here> drones of the same size - but I don't think that it will really change anything.
ECM is simply that much better (natively) than the other forms of ewar.
-Liang
Ed: All of this to say, yes, we should boost other types of ewar drones, but there are ramifications for boosting them and/or nerfing ECM drones.
Maybe its better to stacking nerf ecm instead of overpowering the other drones? Why cant people let go of their i-win-ecm-drones?
|
Raxxius Maelstrom
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 14:33:00 -
[43]
One thing I do agree on is that ECM should receive stacking penalties.
|
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Enuma Elish.
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 15:12:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Raxxius Maelstrom
One thing I do agree on is that ECM should receive stacking penalties.
But ECM doesn't work that way...
it's all well and good to say 'stacking penalize ECM' (and as an ECM pilot, this wouldn't bother me BTW, as I very rarely use more than 2 jammers on a single target) but ... well, they don't have a cumulative effect.
They have a binary state work/not work 1 mod to 1 target. They either work, and set your max targets to zero, or they don't and nothing happens.
Much like guns which also couldn't be meaningfully stacking penalised.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 15:23:00 -
[45]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Much like guns which also couldn't be meaningfully stacking penalised.
LoL. No, serisouly nerf the ecm-drones already. Its redicilous.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
MalVortex
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 17:37:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
Its making pvp predictable and dull, and dont say 'fit eccm' because unless you hav 3 or more 95% boosters you wont notice any difference.
Quote:
Lots more ECCM suxorz whines
I can't believe people still believe this nonsense. Each 96% ECCM effectively halves your chance to be jammed. They don't stop you from being jammed (which is what your actually whining for), they simply halve the number of times you get jammed. Stick two on and your at 1/4 the effective number of jams.
EC-600 Jam Strength: 1.5
Armageddon Strength: 17 (by far the worst BS sensor suite in existance)
Chance for 5x EC-600s to jam per cycle: 36.989%
Chance for 5x EC-600s to jam per cycle after 1x ECCM: 20.565%
Chance for 5x EC-600s to jam per cycle After 1x OC ECCM: 18.15%
5 Hammerhead IIs can do, unbonused, a theoretical 158 raw DPS. Thats quite the opportunity cost.
The only thing thats broken is the silly stacking effect other ECM drones have. Remove that, and you'll see a lot more drone variety.
|
Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noir.
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 18:15:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lux Exterior
I think boosting the other ewar drones is justified, why should painter drones be stacked, they're just spotlighting a target, five of them should be five times as effective as one.
Not really. A target can only be so painted, lit up, and obvious. If a ship already looks like a party boat with neon lights, loud drunk people, blaring music and an unmuffled engine that can be heard for miles what else is another target painter going to do realistically?
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Drek Grapper
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 18:35:00 -
[48]
Put the nerf bat down and step away from the drones...there are ways and means to make you pay if you don't. 
------------------------------------------------
'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright |
Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 18:40:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Kyra Felann
Originally by: Lux Exterior
I think boosting the other ewar drones is justified, why should painter drones be stacked, they're just spotlighting a target, five of them should be five times as effective as one.
Not really. A target can only be so painted, lit up, and obvious. If a ship already looks like a party boat with neon lights, loud drunk people, blaring music and an unmuffled engine that can be heard for miles what else is another target painter going to do realistically?
putting a laser pointer.
well, there aren't that much missiles that can be guided by sound 
---
planetary interaction idea! |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Military Industrial Research
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 18:42:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Kyra Felann
Originally by: Lux Exterior
I think boosting the other ewar drones is justified, why should painter drones be stacked, they're just spotlighting a target, five of them should be five times as effective as one.
Not really. A target can only be so painted, lit up, and obvious. If a ship already looks like a party boat with neon lights, loud drunk people, blaring music and an unmuffled engine that can be heard for miles what else is another target painter going to do realistically?
For missiles, or against slow targets, that's true. But with guns firing on fast targets, as long as you're having trouble tracking the target, then any additional target painting will always help, regardless of how big its sig radius already is.
For example: Let's say a ship has a sig radius of 100, your guns have a sig resolution of 40, but it is going so fast that your guns can't track it. So, you put some painters on it and it blows up to 200 m sig radius. At that point your guns will track A LOT better.
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GateScout
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 18:49:00 -
[51]
Once again we have a group of people talking about nerfing something when they don't understand the reality of its use.
Are ECM drones useful? Yes. Are they 'better' than other EW drones? Maybe....define 'better' first.
Before you all start shouting "NERF!" calculate *exactly* the chance jamming has on a particular ship. As soon as you understand how ECM jamming works (and fails), you'll realize that adding a stacking penalty is insanely stupid. You might as well add a stacking penalty to guns.
Until you can accurately CALCULATE the jamming possibility, stop your baseless whining. ...then ask yourself if you want a weapon system that will miss 80%+ of the time in certain situations. 
|
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 19:08:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
LoL. No, serisouly nerf the ecm-drones already. Its redicilous.
The problem is that you can't realistically "stacking" nerf ECM drones - because they wouldn't really be "ECM" drones at that point (unless you simultaneously stacking nerfed ECM).
So the "best" you can do is stacking nerf the jamming strength that's applied over a certain time period (but that incurs the issues that I brought up above) - and will simultaneously nerf both ECM and ECCM's (!).
And while ECM is undoubtedly the best ewar in the game right now, I think that it's really meant to be (even if I don't like it).
The offensive ewar game has really boiled down to tank'n'gank (ECM vs ECCM). Damps and tracking disruptors were nerfed to only affect one attribute, which had varied affects on them, detailed below.
Damps were made to be a delay tactic (a target painter for ECM if you will) or a form of ewar "artillery" that's only useful between 20 and 50km. It is ridiculously easy to get "under" damps and be entirely unaffected by them.
Tracking disruptors were nerfed even harder than damps, even though they were already entirely useless against missile ships (which simultaneously got a huge boost, incidentally).
The new optimal range script is conceptually (and often touted to be) a counter against snipers, yet this is not true. Tracking disruptors simply don't have the range to affect snipers - not even in falloff (which would allow "chance based" operation).
The new tracking script simply does not scale well, which is to say that you need a much higher transversal to be effective against smaller ships. Thus, it pretty much only works with a really high transversal or against battleship guns facing medium transversal. Of course, this is neglecting that there are ways of the person monkeying with transversal to almost completely counter your ewar - even without fitting a counter.
All of this to say that CCP seems to be intentionally dumbing-down the Ewar game. When someone complaints about ewar right now, we can (quite legitimately) ask why they didn't "come prepared" for it - because there's really only one counter, ECCM.
-Liang
--
If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt.
Consider yourself warned. ^_^ |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 20:07:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
LoL. No, serisouly nerf the ecm-drones already. Its redicilous.
The problem is that you can't realistically "stacking" nerf ECM drones - because they wouldn't really be "ECM" drones at that point (unless you simultaneously stacking nerfed ECM).
So the "best" you can do is stacking nerf the jamming strength that's applied over a certain time period (but that incurs the issues that I brought up above) - and will simultaneously nerf both ECM and ECCM's (!).
And while ECM is undoubtedly the best ewar in the game right now, I think that it's really meant to be (even if I don't like it).
The offensive ewar game has really boiled down to tank'n'gank (ECM vs ECCM). Damps and tracking disruptors were nerfed to only affect one attribute, which had varied affects on them, detailed below.
Damps were made to be a delay tactic (a target painter for ECM if you will) or a form of ewar "artillery" that's only useful between 20 and 50km. It is ridiculously easy to get "under" damps and be entirely unaffected by them.
Tracking disruptors were nerfed even harder than damps, even though they were already entirely useless against missile ships (which simultaneously got a huge boost, incidentally).
The new optimal range script is conceptually (and often touted to be) a counter against snipers, yet this is not true. Tracking disruptors simply don't have the range to affect snipers - not even in falloff (which would allow "chance based" operation).
The new tracking script simply does not scale well, which is to say that you need a much higher transversal to be effective against smaller ships. Thus, it pretty much only works with a really high transversal or against battleship guns facing medium transversal. Of course, this is neglecting that there are ways of the person monkeying with transversal to almost completely counter your ewar - even without fitting a counter.
All of this to say that CCP seems to be intentionally dumbing-down the Ewar game. When someone complaints about ewar right now, we can (quite legitimately) ask why they didn't "come prepared" for it - because there's really only one counter, ECCM.
-Liang
Yes ECM might and should be the ew with the edge BUT every race should not be able to use it. This is the case because every race has drone space. Excuse me but whats the difference between the time when people packed full ecm in their mids but now they are doing it in their drone bays? There is no difference.
They need a nerf. How to nerf? I dont care how, but they need one.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Wardeneo
Gallente
N.E.O NEW EVE ORDER
Knights Of Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 20:08:00 -
[54]
ECM drones suck, end off
wardeneo
If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :) |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 20:11:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Wardeneo
ECM drones suck, end off
wardeneo
Yeah just like unbonused pre nerfed ecm in every ships mid sucked....You know they dont suck and its the only drones youll see on veteran low sec/high sec war pvp'ers.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
Night's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 20:13:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
its the only drones youll see on veteran low sec/high sec war pvp'ers.
Quite untrue.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 20:16:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
its the only drones youll see on veteran low sec/high sec war pvp'ers.
Quite untrue.
You cant count people that havent skilled up for them. There is a definate over use of these drones in the mentioned types of pvp areas.
Tell me this Cpt Branko, what kind of drones do you normally put in your hurricane?
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
MalVortex
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 20:24:00 -
[58]
If you wanted to fix EWAR drones:
Nerf them all so that, alone, they are pretty worthless.
Make racial EWAR skills then apply to the corresponding EWAR drone. Net change should be weaker unskilled drones, slightly better than current with racial specialization skills at 4 or higher.
Remove all stacking nerfed effects from the drones. If I damp you to X km, the racial drones damps should be weak, but damp you with a whole new set of dampening calculations to a new Y value. In this way, they positively stack with other forms of the same EWAR.
|
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
Night's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 20:29:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You cant count people that havent skilled up for them. There is a definate over use of these drones in the mentioned types of pvp areas.
First off, many ships which rely on drones for DPS will use damage drones. I have yet to see a Vexor, Myrmidon, Ishtar, Ishkur, Dominix, Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim, etc chiefly using ECM drones (Dominixes/Ishtars sometimes do carry ECM drones, of course, since they have the spare drone bay).
Damage drones are also the typical choice for the Typhoon/etc.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Tell me this Cpt Branko, what kind of drones do you normally put in your hurricane?
Either a mix of Hammerhead Is/Hobgoblin Is, a bunch of Warrior Is (gatecamping purposes, release drones to take some sentry aggro off you). Damage drones in gangs with solid ECM support, mostly ECM drones for soloing.
I do have to admit that ECM drones are one of the primary reasons I've trained Drones V in the first place (well, OK, extra DPS being the second, I've always been much more geared towards gunnery and a bit of missiles for damage though, since often T2 drones are not very usable anyway due to stupid sentries murdering them), but, no, they are NOT the only drones you'll see.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 20:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Tell me this Cpt Branko, what kind of drones do you normally put in your hurricane?
I know I'm not Cpt Branko, but I fly the hurricane: Warrior/Hobgoblin II's. I'm much more likely to fit ECM drones on ship with unbonused drones and a 50-75 m^3 drone bay.
-Liang
--
If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt.
Consider yourself warned. ^_^ |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 21:16:00 -
[61]
Seriously I tested ECM drones against my alt when trying to make the celestis work in trinity. Dampners with lock time scripts and ECM drones.
3 medium ECM drones, 2 small. against a harbinger.
The result?
During about 5 min testing, 3 jams, or something similar. (which translates pretty well to about 20% every 20 sec). So you can expect a jam about every 100 sec. Don't know the exact chances for 5 meds, but if its 30% in theory its the same in game. (1 jam / minute).
Everyone here claiming that small drones perma jam a BS are just exaggerating.
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 21:58:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Tell me this Cpt Branko, what kind of drones do you normally put in your hurricane?
I know I'm not Cpt Branko, but I fly the hurricane: Warrior/Hobgoblin II's. I'm much more likely to fit ECM drones on ship with unbonused drones and a 50-75 m^3 drone bay.
-Liang
But hurricane has unbonused drones and 5x light ecm is enough to mess up other battlecruisers enough to get a bigger edge then 5xwarrior/hobo's would have given you and this is the issue and that needs to be changed.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Dalen III
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 22:08:00 -
[63]
I like ECM drones they make it so I don't have to train up anymore of the drone subskills. T2 drones damage compared to jamming effect in solo and groups  . If your flying with anything other then ECM drone your either in bonused drone ship or haven't caught on yet.
Don't blame me, blame the main I'm supporting. |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 22:10:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/01/2008 22:10:14
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But hurricane has unbonused drones and 5x light ecm is enough to mess up other battlecruisers enough to get a bigger edge then 5xwarrior/hobo's would have given you and this is the issue and that needs to be changed.
I just used my Ishtar to sick waves of medium ECM drones on my Hurricane. I wasn't once jammed, and I sat there for two to three minutes just waiting for the jam. I got bored and blew all the drones up in less time than it took to tell my corpies on vent about the situation.
-Liang
--
If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt.
Consider yourself warned. ^_^ |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.01.27 22:33:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
ECM drones the new multispec for your drone bay?
ive seen a huge increase in the use of ECM drones in mid to small pvp gangs, and it sucks.
ive NEVER EVER seen any damp drones being used, just ecm drones and in a way you cant blame anyone fitting them, they work VERY well.
nw its not the strength, more the number of chances.
Its making pvp predictable and dull, and dont say 'fit eccm' because unless you hav 3 or more 95% boosters you wont notice any difference.
please ccp, take a look
Its called a smartbomb,use one and watch the pile of their ecm drones pop....Happened to me more then a number of times and is annoying as hell.
This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 01:08:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/01/2008 22:10:14
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But hurricane has unbonused drones and 5x light ecm is enough to mess up other battlecruisers enough to get a bigger edge then 5xwarrior/hobo's would have given you and this is the issue and that needs to be changed.
I just used my Ishtar to sick waves of medium ECM drones on my Hurricane. I wasn't once jammed, and I sat there for two to three minutes just waiting for the jam. I got bored and blew all the drones up in less time than it took to tell my corpies on vent about the situation.
-Liang
LIES!
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Rollotamasi
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 03:24:00 -
[67]
Originally by: General Coochie
Seriously I tested ECM drones against my alt when trying to make the celestis work in trinity. Dampners with lock time scripts and ECM drones.
3 medium ECM drones, 2 small. against a harbinger.
The result?
During about 5 min testing, 3 jams, or something similar. (which translates pretty well to about 20% every 20 sec). So you can expect a jam about every 100 sec. Don't know the exact chances for 5 meds, but if its 30% in theory its the same in game. (1 jam / minute).
Everyone here claiming that small drones perma jam a BS are just exaggerating.
Really funny this thread popped up. I was just in EFT messing around with a celestis trying to come up with something useful to do with it after the damp nerf. I had the exact same idea. 3 Med ECM / 2 light with three damps with lock time scripts. I thought I was being original and stumbled on to something great. Thanks for telling me it sucks lol. At least now I wont waste time.
|
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
Night's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 09:50:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/01/2008 09:52:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But hurricane has unbonused drones and 5x light ecm is enough to mess up other battlecruisers enough to get a bigger edge then 5xwarrior/hobo's would have given you and this is the issue and that needs to be changed.
Actually, 5 warrior IIs are preety awesome when you need to kill other people's drones.
Plus, they're quite useful to send after small stuff.
For outright DPS addition, they're not so awesome, but meh. A full flights of light ECM drones isn't that awesome either.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 11:14:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/01/2008 09:52:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But hurricane has unbonused drones and 5x light ecm is enough to mess up other battlecruisers enough to get a bigger edge then 5xwarrior/hobo's would have given you and this is the issue and that needs to be changed.
Actually, 5 warrior IIs are preety awesome when you need to kill other people's drones.
Plus, they're quite useful to send after small stuff.
For outright DPS addition, they're not so awesome, but meh. A full flights of light ECM drones isn't that awesome either.
This is true,the only reason people complain about said drones is because the other guy got extremely lucky...This has happened to me when i use them,sometimes you never jam him until he dies and sometimes he will never ever lock you.
This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth |
Jaro Brutus
La Isla del Mono
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 11:16:00 -
[70]
Do ECM drones receive bonuses from ships like vexor/arbitrator?
In a gang without proper ecm specialized ships, can those cruisers perform like a Blackbird for instance?
Regards
|
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 11:17:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Jaro Brutus
Do ECM drones receive bonuses from ships like vexor/arbitrator?
In a gang without proper ecm specialized ships, can those cruisers perform like a Blackbird for instance?
Regards
No.
This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth |
Aramendel
Amarr
North Face Force
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 11:43:00 -
[72]
The performance of ECM drones might (*might*) not be broken, however the SP you need to get that performance most definately is.
If you compare thorax vs thorax with 5 t2 hammers vs 5 med ECM drones the ECM drones let one thorax avoid about as much damage as the hammer2s are dealing. So that seems about fine from the performance point of view.
The little difference is that for the ECM drones to operate at full performance you need 300k SP. For the hammer2s you need over 2 mil SP!
ECM drones should be reduced to 40% of their current performance and get the same bonus from drone interfacing as other drones and a 5% bonus/lvl from EW drone interfacing, resulting in them having their current strength at maxed skills with about the same SP cost as combat drones.
|
Dr Fighter
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 18:34:00 -
[73]
This thread has finally turned into a good discussion, which is nice to see.
some things people are forgetting: when calculating the jam odds from drone jam strength dont forget to include the 4 other drones at work at the same time and dont for get that every cycle that doesnt jam theres 5 more rolls in 20 seconds. A fight lasting say 2 minutes would open up 50 chances for a jam, which MASSIVELY ups the chance of jamming.
poeple say "fit eccm, for each one on paper you are twice as hard to jam, this isnt the case in PRACTICE.
people who say "kill the drones", most ships wont gimp their setup for a smartie especially in empire, shooting the drones is fine as long as you use your web to hold them as your target will escape.
The other drones stack to their disadvantage, its not a secret that ECM is the best EW, so why would anyone WANT to fit any other type. Just means ships that shouldn't hav a chance now can escape or win fights they should loose if their 'luck is good'.
Luck is something eve doesn't do, its precise, and thats why alot of people like it, it takes skill at the controls and skill in training and skill in friends - chance based is just not 'eve like'.
theres alot of defense use of ECM drones, IE ships not really meant for a direct fight will use them as a kinda warp stab back up (sniper BS, support ships).
ECM is an hugely powerful EW tool and CCP made ECM harder to use where unless you were using an EW ship they sucked, this stopped the 'multi in spare mids cowboys', but then gave 80% of the ships in game back the very same no brainier ECM slot.
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 19:40:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
ECM is an hugely powerful EW tool and CCP made ECM harder to use where unless you were using an EW ship they sucked, this stopped the 'multi in spare mids cowboys', but then gave 80% of the ships in game back the very same no brainier ECM slot.
Exactly, now they need to get rid of it. Just like uber-dps eos and myrm. These need the nerf.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 19:52:00 -
[75]
Just fit fof missiles, sb and kill those drones.
Its easy
almost effortles
And get out of high sec ffs.
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 20:17:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Laboratus
Just fit fof missiles, sb and kill those drones.
Its easy
almost effortles
And get out of high sec ffs.
Sb in high sec? No. Get out of high sec? Why? So we can leave all carebear corps alone? You know some people dont want sit in a 100 man blob in 0.0 every day. Some like to not worry about bubbles and fight in empire.
Did you actually read and think about why these drones are causing trouble?
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 20:42:00 -
[77]
Small gang null sec pvp ftw.
Yes, I've used drones, I've been targeted by drones and there is no problem with drones.
Noone is forcing you to fight hugging a gate. Be smart, bump and profit.
A single cycle of SB will force your enemy to withdraw drones or face concequences (of losing drones after the next ones).
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
Veryez
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 21:41:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
BAM! there it is
while all the other EW drones get worse the more there are of them (and i mean the 4 max stacking should simply not be applied to something which is nearly always in groups of 5, thats just plain silly).
ECM drones get ALOT better the more there of them, wheres the stacking penalty? WHERE?
Where's the % chance failure on Damps, Disrupters or Painters? That's right there is no probability of failure, damps, disrupters and painters work all the time without fail. Without stacking penalities, the other drones would be extremely overpowered. It's a choice a pilot makes to give up DPS to carry ECM drones, just like it's a choice you make to not carry measures against them. So a pilot gives up 10% to 50% of his DPS for a 30% chance to jam you, which you can take measures against. Sounds fair to me. Oh and chance and luck are certainly a part of eve, otherwise a smaller ship should have no chance against a larger ship. No, our task is to outfit our ships to minimize chance and luck working against us.
|
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 22:08:00 -
[79]
Just wanna point out that outside optimal range which is only 45 km with dampeners (with full skills I think) they are chance dependent.
Probing is chance based.
There are more things in eve chance based then ECM..
Ok lets take an example here.
2 Thoraxes fight.
They are using this fit (to put the thorax using ecm drones at a huge unrealistic advantage).
5 Neutrons II
3 Magstabs II
Skills are fairly high in both blasters and drones.
One rax is using Hammerhead IIs, the other EC-600 (med ecm drone).
The chance the ECM rax has to jam the dps rax is 40% every 20sec. On average it should jam it once every 50sec.
During the 12 seconds + 5 seconds (time for the dps rax to lock again) the ECM thorax can deal additional dps to the other rax that is jammed. equal to 5780 damage.
During the 67 seconds this jam takes the dps thorax deals 8844 dps with drones.
Now take into consideration a real fit and the ECM thorax will have an even huger disadvantage.
It means that the dps thorax will win most such battes.
|
Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 22:45:00 -
[80]
That about concludes that.
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
Tsu'ko
Valley Forge
STELLAR LEGION
|
Posted - 2008.01.29 11:51:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Tsu''ko on 29/01/2008 11:52:18
After reading this thread makes me want to put some ecm drones in a geddon and see what happends 
As EW sucks for amarr, need to use drones to compensate, no nerf imo.
Hope they will increase more of the amarr ships drone bay (bandwidth can be the same) so we can field both ecm drones and damage drones (maybe not full "rack" of dmg drones)
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.29 13:38:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Tsu'ko
Edited by: Tsu''ko on 29/01/2008 11:52:18
After reading this thread makes me want to put some ecm drones in a geddon and see what happends
As EW sucks for amarr, need to use drones to compensate, no nerf imo.
Hope they will increase more of the amarr ships drone bay (bandwidth can be the same) so we can field both ecm drones and damage drones (maybe not full "rack" of dmg drones)
If you face another geddon or any other BS for that matter without ecm of his own youll steam roll across their faces.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
Night's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.01.29 13:42:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/01/2008 13:42:34
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
If you face another geddon or any other BS for that matter without ecm of his own youll steam roll across their faces.
If you're lucky with jams and they don't fit smartbombs or ECCM, yes. Did I say you need to get lucky as well? Well, you do.
Quite a gamble, isn't it?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
|
Posted - 2008.01.29 13:44:00 -
[84]
think coochie wins the thread
/discussion.
---
planetary interaction idea! |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.29 13:57:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/01/2008 13:52:51
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/01/2008 13:42:34
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
If you face another geddon or any other BS for that matter without ecm of his own youll steam roll across their faces.
If you're lucky with jams and they don't fit smartbombs or ECCM, yes. Did I say you need to get lucky as well? Well, you do.
Quite a gamble, isn't it?
Besides, Coochie won the thread.
First off many battleships fit a neut before a SB, if they have spare highs like minmatar BS they fit both sure. Also no one fits eccm, it sucks. Because even if you fit one you can jammed by medium ecm drones wich is redicilous.
Oh and in empire wars and close to gate/stations ecm drones cant be countered either. A gamble? Yeah it is NOT to fit ecm drones.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.29 14:00:00 -
[86]
Originally by: General Coochie
Edited by: General Coochie on 28/01/2008 22:21:50
Just wanna point out that outside optimal range which is only 45 km with dampeners (with full skills I think) they are chance dependent.
Probing is chance based.
There are more things in eve chance based then ECM..
Ok lets take an example here.
2 Thoraxes fight.
They are using this fit (to put the thorax using ecm drones at a huge unrealistic advantage).
5 Neutrons II
3 Magstabs II
Skills are fairly high in both blasters and drones.
One rax is using Hammerhead IIs, the other EC-600 (med ecm drone).
The chance the ECM rax has to jam the dps rax is 40% every 20sec. On average it should jam it once every 50sec.
During the 12 seconds + 5 seconds (time for the dps rax to lock again) the ECM thorax can deal additional dps to the other rax that is jammed. equal to 5780 damage.
During the 67 seconds this jam takes the dps thorax deals 8844 damage with drones.
Basicly the ECM thorax trades a probability to have a 200dps advantage for 17 sec for having a 132 dps disadvantage for 50 sec.
Now take into consideration a real fit and the ECM thorax will have an even huger disadvantage.
It means that the dps thorax will win most such battles.
I hope I got that right, kinda tired, might have overlooked smth.
Of course ECM drones might be better to maybe jam a tackler. Or in other situations. But I think thats totally fine. You choose a bit protection or dps. Totally fine by me.
I do agree on the training time for ewar drones, its way to short. When I realized how short it was I was like "wtf did I train drone interfacing with my alt before training EWAR drones"
You know why your calculations fail? Because thorax has a high damage / tank ratio. Do the same calculations with 2 ships that have more tank and less gallente blaster gank and youll be proving the opposite.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.01.29 17:37:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You know why your calculations fail? Because thorax has a high damage / tank ratio. Do the same calculations with 2 ships that have more tank and less gallente blaster gank and youll be proving the opposite.
I think lyria won the thread.
/discussion
|
Lithel
Amarr
The Soviet Galactic Union
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 00:53:00 -
[88]
Nobody has mentioned nossing drones....
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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L70Rogue
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 07:04:00 -
[89]
thread over Lyria wins thread.
|
Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 08:10:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Lithel
Nobody has mentioned nossing drones....
Neutralizer drones aren't really that great sure its free cap drain but it takes forever to make it worth it.
Also make Tracking disruptor's affect missiles
|
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 09:28:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/01/2008 09:29:24
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You know why your calculations fail? Because thorax has a high damage / tank ratio. Do the same calculations with 2 ships that have more tank and less gallente blaster gank and youll be proving the opposite.
Ok, here's one for you, with more tank and less gallente blaster gank.
Two Neut domis fight (very popular setup). One is using ECM drones, one is using Ogre IIs.
Now, over the course of two minutes, one does 400*120 damage points, second does 0*120 and totally owns the other guy. Oh, wait.
You got it all wrong; the ships with high gank coming from gunnery and low amount of DPS coming from drones coupled with bad sensor str which may benefit from ECM drones more the damage drones - like two Ruptures fighting. Running the numbers on two Ruptures may provide a different insight then running the numbers on high tank / low DPS ship or ships where a significant amount of the DPS comes from drones.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Tyfuz
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 10:42:00 -
[92]
Perhaps you need ship bonus just to make real good use of them. Me and a friend did tests with a dominix(BS lvl5 skilled). And alot of drone SP.
-I was in Dominix, target was a command ship. We did a test with 5x heavy ECM drones and it took 2-5 seconds each time.
-I was in Dominix, arget was a BS. It took 5-20 seconds to ecm the target each time we did the test.
-All the small EW/logistics drones etc is pretty much worthless. Even the small repair drones take like 40 sec to repair another drone.
|
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 11:02:00 -
[93]
Originally by: General Coochie
Edited by: General Coochie on 28/01/2008 22:21:50
Just wanna point out that outside optimal range which is only 45 km with dampeners (with full skills I think) they are chance dependent.
Probing is chance based.
There are more things in eve chance based then ECM..
Ok lets take an example here.
2 Thoraxes fight.
They are using this fit (to put the thorax using ecm drones at a huge unrealistic advantage).
5 Neutrons II
3 Magstabs II
Skills are fairly high in both blasters and drones.
One rax is using Hammerhead IIs, the other EC-600 (med ecm drone).
The chance the ECM rax has to jam the dps rax is 40% every 20sec. On average it should jam it once every 50sec.
During the 12 seconds + 5 seconds (time for the dps rax to lock again) the ECM thorax can deal additional dps to the other rax that is jammed. equal to 5780 damage.
During the 67 seconds this jam takes the dps thorax deals 8844 damage with drones.
Basicly the ECM thorax trades a probability to have a 200dps advantage for 17 sec for having a 132 dps disadvantage for 50 sec.
Now take into consideration a real fit and the ECM thorax will have an even huger disadvantage.
It means that the dps thorax will win most such battles.
I hope I got that right, kinda tired, might have overlooked smth.
Of course ECM drones might be better to maybe jam a tackler. Or in other situations. But I think thats totally fine. You choose a bit protection or dps. Totally fine by me.
I do agree on the training time for ewar drones, its way to short. When I realized how short it was I was like "wtf did I train drone interfacing with my alt before training EWAR drones"
Numbers are completely off.
5 neutron 3 magstab will get you 500 dps, 5 hammerheads are 158 dps.
41% chance to jam, assuming perfect averages, means you get 46 seconds(5 seconds to lock) out of 100 seconds of jamming.
Thats 46*500=23000 dmg averted.
In this same period, 5 hammerhead IIs will deal 15800 damage. As you can see, ecm is far superior.
Since sensor str does not scale with dps(mega has only 21 sensor str vs thorax's 15, but deals almost twice the gun dps), ECM drones only get MORE effective against battleships.
|
Elias Modron
Rage For Order
Nihil-Obstat
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 11:02:00 -
[94]
I love my ECM drones. I carry a set in my Thorax and my Myrmidon, and while they don't work every time the 20 seconds of freedom I get when they do successfully jam allows me to pile on the hurt or let a tackled gang mate escape.
|
Drek Grapper
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 11:53:00 -
[95]
It's funny how ecm drones have been around for a long time..and the whines only start now. Is it becsue there is nothing else left to whine about?
Shaddup and play the $%&ing game ffs.
You people wont stop until there is no variety left in the goddam game. And then, and then i bet you will still find something else to whine about...ffs. It's tiresome.
------------------------------------------------
'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright |
Cpt Cosmic
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 12:48:00 -
[96]
it is because when something got nurfed, the playerbase jump into the next powerful thing that they can abuse, thats common knowledge.
|
Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 13:53:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
it is because when something got nurfed, the playerbase jump into the next powerful thing that they can abuse, thats common knowledge.
QFT.
|
Drek Grapper
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 14:02:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
it is because when something got nurfed, the playerbase jump into the next powerful thing that they can abuse, thats common knowledge.
QFT.
Oh really? And if they were so 'overpowered' from the very beggining, how come not many people were using them? Eh?
People are starting to get confused between 'effective' and overpowered. Just because something does exactly what it was meant to do..does not mean it's overpowered.
Nerf weapons...they kill too good. Nerf combat ships..they kill to good. Nerf everything that works...that will sort the game out eh?
The player base must learn to ú$%^ing grow up...seriously.
------------------------------------------------
'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 14:14:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Drek Grapper
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
it is because when something got nurfed, the playerbase jump into the next powerful thing that they can abuse, thats common knowledge.
QFT.
Oh really? And if they were so 'overpowered' from the very beggining, how come not many people were using them? Eh?
People are starting to get confused between 'effective' and overpowered. Just because something does exactly what it was meant to do..does not mean it's overpowered.
Nerf weapons...they kill too good. Nerf combat ships..they kill to good. Nerf everything that works...that will sort the game out eh?
The player base must learn to ú$%^ing grow up...seriously.
Because before this everyone was fitting ecm in their mid slots. That got nerfed and now people caught up with ecm drone abuse instead. You know they are overpowered and thats why you are valiantly defending them. Youre arguments are exactly as void though as the dont-nerf-myrmidon/eos squad before last nerf bat swing.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Drek Grapper
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 14:32:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Drek Grapper
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
it is because when something got nurfed, the playerbase jump into the next powerful thing that they can abuse, thats common knowledge.
QFT.
Oh really? And if they were so 'overpowered' from the very beggining, how come not many people were using them? Eh?
People are starting to get confused between 'effective' and overpowered. Just because something does exactly what it was meant to do..does not mean it's overpowered.
Nerf weapons...they kill too good. Nerf combat ships..they kill to good. Nerf everything that works...that will sort the game out eh?
The player base must learn to ú$%^ing grow up...seriously.
Because before this everyone was fitting ecm in their mid slots. That got nerfed and now people caught up with ecm drone abuse instead. You know they are overpowered and thats why you are valiantly defending them. Youre arguments are exactly as void though as the dont-nerf-myrmidon/eos squad before last nerf bat swing.
Oh really...ecm was nerfed what? Nearly 2 years ago? Please.
Your personal whine crusade is getting tiresome. Next time someone you gank escapes by using ecm drones try killing them next time instead if whining... it might be quicker.
------------------------------------------------
'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 16:41:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Drek Grapper
...
Ok wise guy why did they nerf ecm 2 years ago? Because people whined? Everyone could use them, everyone did. According to anti-whine-squad you cant complain about anything and if things were up to these people we'd still have majorly imbalanced ships like 8x HS gankageddons and stupidly op dps eos.
What we have here is basically ecm like 2 years ago but its in our drone bays instead of our mid slots. All other ew drones are crap just like all other ew was crap before the ecm nerf. Did ccp boost the others or did ccp nerf ecm? They nerfed ecm and they need to do the same with these drones.
So what is your malfunction? You want to roll back mid slot ecm nerf too?
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Cpt Cosmic
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 16:53:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 30/01/2008 16:52:47
Originally by: Drek Grapper
stuff
because after the ecm nurf all jumped into damps, now these are not useful anymore because they got nurfed too and ecm modules are only good on dedicated ships that means every one use ecm drones mostly. another reason is that some crazy pilots use marauders for pvp and they have low sensors strengh = ecm drones are a nice defense against them.
|
Drek Grapper
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 16:56:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Drek Grapper
...
Ok wise guy why did they nerf ecm 2 years ago? Because people whined? Everyone could use them, everyone did. According to anti-whine-squad you cant complain about anything and if things were up to these people we'd still have majorly imbalanced ships like 8x HS gankageddons and stupidly op dps eos.
What we have here is basically ecm like 2 years ago but its in our drone bays instead of our mid slots. All other ew drones are crap just like all other ew was crap before the ecm nerf. Did ccp boost the others or did ccp nerf ecm? They nerfed ecm and they need to do the same with these drones.
So what is your malfunction? You want to roll back mid slot ecm nerf too?
Ooh lets not get our panties in a twist ok...ecm drones can be killed can they not? There is a downside to fitting them...you loose drone dps.
So no, they are not the same. And to be honest there is a fundamental difference between 'overpowered' and 'effective'. This might be your problem. you can't seem to tell the difference.
Ecm drones are very effective at what they do...unstacked Gyro's or Heatsinks where blatantly overpowered it's easy to see that.
Like i said before...you are just sore because someone you could have beaten got away by using his ecm drones.
Well... sorry to hear about it. F%$úing get over it.
------------------------------------------------
'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 17:01:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
we'd still have majorly imbalanced ships like 8x HS gankageddons and stupidly op dps eos.
You cannot possibly be comparing the 8 HS geddon to the Eos. I mean, it was a LITTLE BIT out of line, but, come on.
Seriously, people whine about any effective thing, whether it be overly effective or not, and even if it's only effective through their own ignorance and laziness.
-Liang
--
If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt.
Update: I bought a Datahand for RSI, and I now suck at typing (so I don't post as much) |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 20:41:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Drek Grapper
Ooh lets not get our panties in a twist ok...ecm drones can be killed can they not? There is a downside to fitting them...you loose drone dps.
So no, they are not the same. And to be honest there is a fundamental difference between 'overpowered' and 'effective'. This might be your problem. you can't seem to tell the difference.
Ecm drones are very effective at what they do...unstacked Gyro's or Heatsinks where blatantly overpowered it's easy to see that.
Like i said before...you are just sore because someone you could have beaten got away by using his ecm drones.
Well... sorry to hear about it. F%$úing get over it.
Oh here it comes: The patronize-mode of the anti-nerf-squad. *clap*
First off you dont have a clue what youre talking about and youve obviously havent read any of the other posts in this thread. How are you going to shoot ecm drones when they are jamming you? Lock, wait for lock, web, shoot before another jam or possible death while the enemy is pounding you?
Smartbombs? They dont work near gates or station and suicidal to use in empire space.
Do you play this game? I think not. Do you have a clue what youre talking about? Not really.
Are you a troll? Definately.
And get this into your thick skull: If something is so effective that basically every build uses them there is something wrong with it. Yes MWDs and Cap Boosters should be looked at too because EVERYONE is fitting them. ECM-drones in especially low-sec and empire is a VERY common sight in peoples pvp fits. GTFO and troll somewhere else.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 20:43:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
we'd still have majorly imbalanced ships like 8x HS gankageddons and stupidly op dps eos.
You cannot possibly be comparing the 8 HS geddon to the Eos. I mean, it was a LITTLE BIT out of line, but, come on.
Seriously, people whine about any effective thing, whether it be overly effective or not, and even if it's only effective through their own ignorance and laziness.
-Liang
EOS "little" bit out of line? No way, it had redicilous tank+gank at the same time.
Whats all this talk about effective? No youre not thinking out of the box by fitting nifty ecm-drones just like you werent thinking out of the box because you fit 8xHS on your geddon back in the days. EOS, Myrm and geddon were overpowered. They got nerfed. Ecm-drones are overpowered, they are going to GET nerfed when ccp gets to it (wich may sadly take years).
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Drek Grapper
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 21:23:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Drek Grapper
Ooh lets not get our panties in a twist ok...ecm drones can be killed can they not? There is a downside to fitting them...you loose drone dps.
So no, they are not the same. And to be honest there is a fundamental difference between 'overpowered' and 'effective'. This might be your problem. you can't seem to tell the difference.
Ecm drones are very effective at what they do...unstacked Gyro's or Heatsinks where blatantly overpowered it's easy to see that.
Like i said before...you are just sore because someone you could have beaten got away by using his ecm drones.
Well... sorry to hear about it. F%$úing get over it.
Oh here it comes: The patronize-mode of the anti-nerf-squad. *clap*
First off you dont have a clue what youre talking about and youve obviously havent read any of the other posts in this thread. How are you going to shoot ecm drones when they are jamming you? Lock, wait for lock, web, shoot before another jam or possible death while the enemy is pounding you?
Smartbombs? They dont work near gates or station and suicidal to use in empire space.
Do you play this game? I think not. Do you have a clue what youre talking about? Not really.
Are you a troll? Definately.
And get this into your thick skull: If something is so effective that basically every build uses them there is something wrong with it. Yes MWDs and Cap Boosters should be looked at too because EVERYONE is fitting them. ECM-drones in especially low-sec and empire is a VERY common sight in peoples pvp fits. GTFO and troll somewhere else.
Oh here it comes...i am teh pwnzor forum warrior who sits on thine high horse and spouts my truths down apon thy unworthy beings below.
Lol...yeah nerf it all. I think you are talking this forum stuff waaay to seriously mate. Why don't you go and have a little lie down ok...there there.
Right back to teh topic...I don't agree that ecm drones overpowered. I might not sit and agonise over the maths all day trying to prove it either...but thats just me. Get over it.
In the mean time enjoy prancing around teh forums looking for the next big nerf...soon, (if you try real hard) the game will be just how you want it hehe! 
------------------------------------------------
'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 21:26:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Drek Grapper
...
Fear my forum-warrior powers
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.01.31 00:31:00 -
[109]
Edited by: General Coochie on 31/01/2008 00:35:56
Quote:
Numbers are completely off.
5 neutron 3 magstab will get you 500 dps, 5 hammerheads are 158 dps.
41% chance to jam, assuming perfect averages, means you get 46 seconds(5 seconds to lock) out of 100 seconds of jamming.
Thats 46*500=23000 dmg averted.
In this same period, 5 hammerhead IIs will deal 15800 damage. As you can see, ecm is far superior.
Since sensor str does not scale with dps(mega has only 21 sensor str vs thorax's 15, but deals almost twice the gun dps), ECM drones only get MORE effective against battleships.
My whole eve life I thought ECM jammed for 12 sec. Oh well 20 sec it is. Lets say we got a jam after 50sec, in reality we get it less often then that due to how chance work.
And also using EFT max skills for the dps isn't cool. Think I forgot putting void into the blasters though
ok so
486 * 25 = 12150 for ecm.
140 * 75 = 10500 for dps.
bit of a favor towards ECM drones. A lot more SP invested in gunnery here though then in drones. and you need that to tip the balance over.
I just felt that when using ecm drones on alt they omg sucked.
I don't really have an opinion I wanna argue for, I never use em myself.
lets use the mega now.
I will use this fit as it seems to be somewhat popular. Since everyone is so horny about using EFT lv V preset lets go with that.
7 Ions II, void (neut whatever)
booster, web scram, mwd
LAR * 2, kin, therm, expl, 2 mag stabs II.
rigg: aux aux, nano
Turret dps: 791 dps according to EFT
Drone DPS (5 * ogre II) : 316 dps.
Global chance to jam another mega with 5 EC-900 drones every 20 sec: 40%
Lets say first jam comes after 50sec, and lasts for 20 + 5 sec (locking time)
Dmg mega with ECM drones will deal during these 25 seconds : 19775
Dmg mega with drones will deal only from drones in the 75sec: 23700
however after 70sec ecm drones will start their jamming again, those 5 sec megas locking the other mega have to be accounted for. 5 * 791 = 3955.
so there really doesn't seem to be an advantage here. Consider you need BS V, large hybrid turret, support dps skills and the specilation skills to V to get even with drones.
Also in theory you dont have a 100% chance to jam every 50sec. Its lower then that but I cant be arsed calculating it.
The mega with ECM drones can't break the other megas tank. ECM mega does have the opportunity to disengage which is a nice asset. But its almost like putting a warp core stab on your mega. If you gimp yourself so much dps wise that you can't break another megas tank 1v1 but you can disengage from it what have you earned?
ECM mega could go more gank, but then he relies on luck to get the upper hand. Other mega is still doing a healthy dps that he wont be able to tank.
The versatility ECM drones bring is a good argument for using them, you might be able to jam tacklers, disengage from combat, help gang by jamming some enemy support ship.
But you are also turning down 316 dps. For the mega setup above thats almost 50% extra dps.
So did I do it right this time? Anything I overlooked? Posting in middle of the night again so probably made some misstakes.
edit: Ogre IIs also have 3.4 times more hp then EC Wasps, ECM drones can be countered with SB 4 cycles = 30 sec to make em pop. In theory they haven't even jammed you yet.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.31 00:51:00 -
[110]
Originally by: General Coochie
But you are also turning down 316 dps by not using 5 Ogre IIs. For the mega setup above thats almost 50% extra dps (on ship thats got a damage bonus to turrets).
.
Thing is, 316dps with MAX skills. Now compare the SP you need for that dps to how much sp you need to use ecm drones. Now take the amount of SP you need to train ecm drones and put it into combat drones and THEN calculate the dps youre losing out on. Its right there you gotta do the balancing, not at max skills.
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.01.31 00:59:00 -
[111]
Edited by: General Coochie on 31/01/2008 01:08:12
Edited by: General Coochie on 31/01/2008 01:05:26
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: General Coochie
But you are also turning down 316 dps by not using 5 Ogre IIs. For the mega setup above thats almost 50% extra dps (on ship thats got a damage bonus to turrets).
.
Thing is, 316dps with MAX skills. Now compare the SP you need for that dps to how much sp you need to use ecm drones. Now take the amount of SP you need to train ecm drones and put it into combat drones and THEN calculate the dps youre losing out on. Its right there you gotta do the balancing, not at max skills.
Well lets say we put same amount of DPS in gunnery and compare again? Besides Ogre IIs with 250 dps + (which still is a lot ) isn't that far away from using heavy ECM drones.
I already said I agreed that it was to easy to skill of EWAR drones considering how effective they are. I don't think that should mean that ewar drones should get nerfed, their training time maybe should though.
And about your dps/tank ratio. yeah a tanked ship could use ECM drones to improve its tank much like a gank ship can use dps drones to improve its gank. I don't see anything wrong with that. CAre to expand on this idea further? Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture here.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2008.01.31 00:59:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 31/01/2008 01:02:07
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Do you play this game? I think not.
Actually, I saw him in space in low-sec, fought him even. I never see the whine brigade in space, though.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Do you have a clue what youre talking about? Not really.
Are you a troll? Definately.
You are. You are both ignoring numbers and counter-arguments and are just, basically, trolling.
So GTFO and troll someone else. Troll CAOD or something, so the rest of the forum can happily ignore you.
You know very well that certain PvP mechanics necessiate certain fittings (think warp distruptor + web for starters, then MWD to try to counter this / burn back to gates etc). These are, like it or not, necessary due to how this game works.
Of course, you could just troll and say 'onoz, warp distruptor iz overpowered, everyone fits it!', but that doesn't make you any more credible then Johnny JoJo.
I suppose alternatives to the gank/tank spreadsheet the whine squad wants to turn EvE into must be overpowered by definition.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Thing is, 316dps with MAX skills. Now compare the SP you need for that dps to how much sp you need to use ecm drones. Now take the amount of SP you need to train ecm drones and put it into combat drones and THEN calculate the dps youre losing out on. Its right there you gotta do the balancing, not at max skills.
Of course, when you do the 'all L5' thing, it's a 100% valid argument.
Although EWAR drones could use a somewhat higher SP requirement plus a boost to the other kind of EWAR drones.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.31 01:06:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Troll CAOD or something, so the rest of the forum can happily ignore you.
CAOD?! No way, big walls of text striking lyria for 9654649 damage. Thats a scary place
Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.01.31 11:47:00 -
[114]
Also what you wanna compare is how much dps ECM drones saves you from. They save you from the same amount of dps a standard mega fit does in turret dps, compared to the damage you could have inflicted using Ogre IIs. And this is with MAX skills. If we were to consider using OGRE IIs with gallente drone spec at say IV. and same amount of SP in turrets how would the results look then? Probably even more in favor of the Ogres as turrets are a lot harder to skill up. Take into account you need BS at lv V as well to get these numbers.
If your opponent has less then 715 dps in turrets you will save yourself from less dps then you could have inflicted if you were using dps drones instead.
I think thats an reasonable trade off? (excluding the low sp requirement of ECM drones)
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Raxxius Maelstrom
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Posted - 2008.01.31 14:03:00 -
[115]
The other thing to remeber is that ECM drones give you a GTFO clause. While an ECM drone Mega may or may not beat an Ogre Mega on paper, in practice the ECM drone mega is going to be able to run from the engagement at least some of the time, while the Ogre mega is forced to play till the end even if it's clear things are going south for him.
Survivability is a major factor in this game, it's THE main reason Nano-hacs are so popular. Don't ignore it.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.01.31 16:07:00 -
[116]
I heartily approve of ECM drones. Obviously they need to be more effective than DPS drones in certain situations or everyone would always only bring DPS drones, which is boring.
DPS is always good. Always. ECM drones aren't as good in situations where all that matters is you squeezing out that last bit of dps.
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