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Kahega Amielden
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:04:00 -
[1]
Alright. Currently there's a system where undercutting someone else by .01 ISK means that your goods will always sell before theirs unless they log on and undercut YOU by .01 ISK.
What the hell's the point in this system? It should really be removed, and the sale should go to whichever order the buyer chooses. This way, petty undercuts (by .01 ISK) would have next to no effect. Currently, "Competition" involves logging in a lot to undercut someone by .01 ISK, and that's just stupid.
Thoughts?
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Ponderous Thunderstroke
Republic War Machine Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:08:00 -
[2]
Thought: In this game, trade is another form of PVP. Some people make it their entire game, in fact. If you can't be arsed to put in the same intensity and attention as the hardcore PVP traders, then you can't whine when they undercut you.
--
"PT, you are a complete and total jerk."
Yes. Yes I am.
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:12:00 -
[3]
You can undercut by more than 0.01 ISK. Nobody's stopping you. Nobody wants to pay more than they have to. Undercutting is kinda the basis of the whole market system. There's no reason that anybody wouldn't take the cheapest order anyway.
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Kahega Amielden
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:12:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 25/01/2008 06:12:29
Logging on to Undercut someone by .01 ISK is mindless and stupid. Would market PVP not be a bit more interesting if you had to undercut someone by a meaningful amount?
People generally wont care about .01 ISK so they wont bother.
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:16:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 25/01/2008 06:12:29
Logging on to Undercut someone by .01 ISK is mindless and stupid. Would market PVP not be a bit more interesting if you had to undercut someone by a meaningful amount?
People generally wont care about .01 ISK so they wont bother.
What would you consider meaningful?
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Kahega Amielden
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:19:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 25/01/2008 06:20:03
an amount that would actually cause the buyer to care about which one he gets? More similar to the real world market.
Do you ever see stores advertising $.03 off anything they sell? Hell no.
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Talla Hurzin
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:25:00 -
[7]
From my experience most of the people who undercut by 0.01 ISK are day traders, aka "buy low sell high". They only undercut by that insignificant amount because they want to keep their profit margin. The best way to combat it is undercut by a good 3-5% each time and ruin their profit margins. Hell, you could undercut by enough, then buy up their stock at a discounted price, and put it back on the market at the original price.
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Admiral Pelleon
Caldari
White Shadow Imperium
imPure.
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 25/01/2008 06:20:03
an amount that would actually cause the buyer to care about which one he gets? More similar to the real world market.
Do you ever see stores advertising $.03 off anything they sell? Hell no.
That comparison doesn't hold water. You're already in the store.
You walk in, there's a game for $50 and the same game for $49.98 sitting right next to it. Why would you buy the slightly more expensive one? (assuming you used plastic and didn't have to deal with change)
________
Originally by: Tarminic
I believe your mother should have re-rolled her birth control.
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:28:00 -
[9]
You still haven't answered my question. What's a "meaningful" amount for you if not 0.01 ISK?
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Kahega Amielden
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:30:00 -
[10]
Quote:
You walk in, there's a game for $50 and the same game for $49.98 sitting right next to it. Why would you buy the slightly more expensive one? (assuming you used plastic and didn't have to deal with change)
I wouldn't care. Quote:
You still haven't answered my question. What's a "meaningful" amount for you if not 0.01 ISK?
I answered that
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:42:00 -
[11]
undercut them by 1000
problem solved
unless you're selling ammunition
then undercut them by giving me your stuff
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Artem Plovix
Dynamic Industrial Group
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:55:00 -
[12]
I go out of my way NOT to buy from people who are undercutting other orders by 0.01. If you can't be asked to lower your price enough to actually mean something, I can't be asked to buy your product. I'll spend the 0.01 to support the guy who's not being a tightwad.
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Redglare's Demise
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.01.25 06:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Alright. Currently there's a system where undercutting someone else by .01 ISK means that your goods will always sell before theirs unless they log on and undercut YOU by .01 ISK.
What the hell's the point in this system? It should really be removed, and the sale should go to whichever order the buyer chooses. This way, petty undercuts (by .01 ISK) would have next to no effect. Currently, "Competition" involves logging in a lot to undercut someone by .01 ISK, and that's just stupid.
Thoughts?
Yes, when I am buying mods on the market I will certainly NOT go for the stuff that is 0.01 isk cheaper. I will instead buy the more expensive stuff because I am an idiot.
o wait...
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
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Posted - 2008.01.25 07:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 25/01/2008 06:20:03
an amount that would actually cause the buyer to care about which one he gets? More similar to the real world market.
Do you ever see stores advertising $.03 off anything they sell? Hell no.
You still haven't given a quantifiable amount as a suggestion. =\
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Sul Condbax
Open Season
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Posted - 2008.01.25 07:06:00 -
[15]
0.01 ISK modifications ensure price stability. Anyone who undercuts by more (on a product that actually sells) is a fool who might as well give his ISK away to random strangers.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.25 07:07:00 -
[16]
I was playing this game in Jita a while back, but i was always undercut very fast, so that i believe people have macro bots for that (i have no proof). They can make macros for mining or missionrunning - a macro that checks through diffrent items and undercuts within a given limit is much easier to make, so i think people already use them. Quite an unfair advantage in that undercutting game imho.
Undercutting with big ammounts, in order to "get the others out of the market" often leads to the same undercutting game but on a lower price level. People won't stop offering their items if they have been undercut, they have to sell them too so they will play the undercutting game even if the profit for both is lower. So that 0.01 steps make sense, but it's quite annoying, expecially if someon usese cheat software to insta-undercut.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2008.01.25 07:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad
There's no reason that anybody wouldn't take the cheapest order anyway.
Sometimes in Jita when I need more than one of a item like a gun or missile launcher and the lag is really bad I will open the details screen and buy from the larger volume orders so there is only one laggy transaction instead of buying from all the single item orders where 0.01 ISK is the only price difference.
I dont mind if each item costs me a few hundred ISK more.
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My new years resolution is to give up nonconstructive posting |
Richard Phallus
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Posted - 2008.01.25 07:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Artem Plovix
I go out of my way NOT to buy from people who are undercutting other orders by 0.01. If you can't be asked to lower your price enough to actually mean something, I can't be asked to buy your product. I'll spend the 0.01 to support the guy who's not being a tightwad.
This is not how the market works in a same station situation like Jita 4-4 or any other hub. You can not choose the more expensive order. In fact if you do try, and you pay the more expensive price, all you've done is give the lowest under cutter at the time MORE isk than he asked for.
In a way you just reward the undercut warriors. ( If you avoid trade hubs and fly out several jumps to get the more expensive items, then what I said may not apply. )
--
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Kaivos
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Posted - 2008.01.25 07:57:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Kaivos on 25/01/2008 07:58:53
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
I was playing this game in Jita a while back, but i was always undercut very fast, so that i believe people have macro bots for that (i have no proof). They can make macros for mining or missionrunning - a macro that checks through diffrent items and undercuts within a given limit is much easier to make, so i think people already use them. Quite an unfair advantage in that undercutting game imho.
No there are no bots. Do you realise that trading is one of the professions in this game. There are people that do _ONLY_ that. And in Jita there are always 500+ people doing it. So it is not any wonder that you get undercutted very fast.
Some people like me, might spend a whole day playing with the market.
And what comes to 0.01 undercutting. It is idiotic to change the price more than that since it eventually lowers everybody's profit margins by lowering the item price or rising the manufacturing costs.
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Artem Plovix
Dynamic Industrial Group
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:00:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Richard Phallus
Originally by: Artem Plovix
I go out of my way NOT to buy from people who are undercutting other orders by 0.01. If you can't be asked to lower your price enough to actually mean something, I can't be asked to buy your product. I'll spend the 0.01 to support the guy who's not being a tightwad.
This is not how the market works in a same station situation like Jita 4-4 or any other hub. You can not choose the more expensive order. In fact if you do try, and you pay the more expensive price, all you've done is give the lowest under cutter at the time MORE isk than he asked for.
In a way you just reward the undercut warriors. ( If you avoid trade hubs and fly out several jumps to get the more expensive items, then what I said may not apply. )
I don't think I've ever once visited Jita. And I've never once had a problem tracking down and getting an item I needed. I still don't get why people go there.
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:04:00 -
[21]
i work hard to give my customers the very best prices on the market. These just happen to be 0.01 under the next guy's price.
Nothing broken with the current system.
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Kaivos
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Artem Plovix
I don't think I've ever once visited Jita. And I've never once had a problem tracking down and getting an item I needed. I still don't get why people go there.
Your buy orders fill fast and your sell orders sell fast if you have time to micromanage them. Equals you make lot of isks in less time.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:12:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 25/01/2008 08:12:02
Quote:
No there are no bots. Do you realise that trading is one of the professions in this game. There are people that do _ONLY_ that. And in Jita there are always 500+ people doing it. So it is not any wonder that you get undercutted very fast.
Some people like me, might spend a whole day playing with the market.
Well, who knows, while you spend your whole day watching the market and changing prices (which is more boring than mining or missionrunning), another guy launches his macro and can do something diffrent the whole day. At the end you sold a little and he sold a lot, since his macro can undercut you faster than you him (except you check the market every minute, which would be insane if you do that the whole day). Its easier to create than a mission-macro, it gives a solid advantage, i'd be really surprised if noone uses macros for trade.
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Rabbitgod
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:23:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Rabbitgod on 25/01/2008 08:24:00
It's the economy, stupid.
When I go to spend isk sellers should be forced to compete.
When I go to sell a resource buyers should be forced to compete.
Why? Because it helps reduce the likelihood that I'm getting boned and thats a good thing because I don't like getting boned.
Well unless shes hot and promises to be genital.
At least at first.
---{24th member of the 23}---
Where did all the cookies go?
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:24:00 -
[25]
It seems you're moaning about the current system but giving no alternatives.
Imo, the current system works great. It rewards those who have put in the time and effort over those who can't or don't update thier orders.
Why should I be forced to undercut by some arbitrary percentage or amount of isk? What if I actually don't want to go as low as one guy's order but undercut someone else? Can I only ever undercut? Am I allowed to place my order at 0.01 ISK MORE than someone else rather than less? or is that too stupid?
You have no argument and no solution, you're just moaning and you'll get little sympathy here.
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Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
facepalm johnson
a sackful of sacrificial sacrifices
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:40:00 -
[26]
Wts: Kahega Amielden's tears, 756.22 ISK ea.
No bloody 0.01 undercuts, kthxbye.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Cult of Rawr
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:44:00 -
[27]
I agree, undercutting in it's current form needs some limits because it's stupid imho and you HAVE to do it in some places if you want to sell anytime soon.
A minimum modification amount needs to be in place IMHO. Say 1%, so If I were selling a Drake for 32.9mil and someone else for 32.89mil, so the highest I could undercut to would be 32.57mil. It wouldn't be much of a difference but done repeatedly prices would drop rapidly until the point where sellers are more willing to wait for a sale rather than sell at a price which is not profitable
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.01.25 09:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
I agree, undercutting in it's current form needs some limits because it's stupid imho and you HAVE to do it in some places if you want to sell anytime soon.
A minimum modification amount needs to be in place IMHO. Say 1%, so If I were selling a Drake for 32.9mil and someone else for 32.89mil, so the highest I could undercut to would be 32.57mil. It wouldn't be much of a difference but done repeatedly prices would drop rapidly until the point where sellers are more willing to wait for a sale rather than sell at a price which is not profitable
If you are confident in this strategy why not simply apply it to your own trading? Each time you're undercut, undercut back harder. Believe me or not, if you cut the price far enough, it's like putting the market on pause.
Why do we need rules make everyone adjust to your pricing scheme?
Look I'm lucky if I can check my 250 orders once per day. I could give a rat's a$$ about 0.01 undercutting because the stuff in my hanger is still selling at a brisk pace.
If your stuff isn't selling perhaps you should tend to the holes in your own strategy rather than pushing for huge global changes to the market.
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Gillian Delilah
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Posted - 2008.01.25 09:08:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Artem Plovix
I go out of my way NOT to buy from people who are undercutting other orders by 0.01. If you can't be asked to lower your price enough to actually mean something, I can't be asked to buy your product. I'll spend the 0.01 to support the guy who's not being a tightwad.
Me too. I didn't use to, until I started playing the market myself, and found the "undercut by 0.1 isk" muppets hard at work. As a consequence I try to buy from anyone with a rounded price, and not buy from anyone with an unrounded price. I personally try to manage my buy and sell prices in such a way as to ruin their profit margins (as someone mentioned above).
I also like to intervene whenever I spot anyone selling something for a silly price on the market; I get a kick out of spoiling their fun by undercutting them and offering lots of similar goods for sale at a reasonable price. Again as someone mentioned above, the market is PVP.
I can't think how the devs would be able to stop the .1 isk undercutters. Perhaps by inclusion of a filter which would only allow new prices to be set that were different by greater than 1% of existing orders. For instance, if someone has a sell order out for items at 100isk, new orders could only be placed that were 99isk or lower, rather than the existing situation where someone could place an order for 99.9isk, someone else could undercut to 99.8isk etc. ad tedium.
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Chain Daisy
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Posted - 2008.01.25 09:18:00 -
[30]
Oops I see someone with more brain already suggested that, and got a predictably whiny response from the people who like to undercut by trivial amounts. No real auction house allows bidders to work like that, you can go on all you like about how hard-nosed you're being, but you're not, you're just being time-wasters. Ever see an auctioneer taking bids from an audience? "And I'm bid... ten euros... do I hear ten euros and one cent? Ten euros and two cents?" You don't hear that, and you don't hear that 'cause it's a stupid waste of everyone's time.
I like the idea of selling stuff at cost, but fear that if you sell at cost the .1 isk muppets may be able to simply buy out your stock and resell them at a higher price.
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