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Undercutting

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Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:19:00 - [61] Originally by: Chain Daisy Oops I see someone with more brain already suggested that, and got a predictably whiny response from the people who like to undercut by trivial amounts. No real auction house allows bidders to work like that, you can go on all you like about how hard-nosed you're being, but you're not, you're just being time-wasters. Ever see an auctioneer taking bids from an audience? "And I'm bid... ten euros... do I hear ten euros and one cent? Ten euros and two cents?" You don't hear that, and you don't hear that 'cause it's a stupid waste of everyone's time. the eve market isn't an auction. you set a price, and people either buy or not. there is no bidding involved.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:29:00 - [62] Edited by: Shadowsword on 25/01/2008 12:31:03 Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 25/01/2008 06:12:29 Logging on to Undercut someone by .01 ISK is mindless and stupid. Would market PVP not be a bit more interesting if you had to undercut someone by a meaningful amount? People generally wont care about .01 ISK so they wont bother. What would you consider meaningful? A logarythmic progression with 0.5% increments would be well adapted, I think. I agree that the current undercutting thing is ridiculous. Market pvp should be about who is able to accept the lowest margins, not just who got the most time to change orders. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Aaron	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:31:00 - [63] Just thought of somethin that makes me laugh, in a part of stain there's an alliance that has a vast range of items on the market, but 24/7 they camp & podkill every singe person that enters the system where the items are sold So around where i live its definately not a case of buying the cheapest, its a case of buying the safest.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:34:00 - [64] In the UK (and I imagine its the same elsewhere) you always see price under cuts by 1 pence. 1 pence is not a meaningful amount. You could find out who is undercutting you - perhaps theyre in a player corp and can be decced. Or move to a less competetive system where you can sell at the price you want. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
baltec1	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:35:00 - [65] I dont see what the problem here is. Sure 0.01 isk doesn't sound like much to you but to me it could save me millions. For example tri is selling for 3 isk per unit, now I notice that ever 15 min it drops 0.01, so I wait and see what the market is doing. This can take hours or even days but with dedication I sit and watch untill i see that the price has not changed for a few hours. Now is when I buy, so rather than spending 3 isk I now pay 1.94 isk. Now when I buy tritainum I buy ALOT so 50 mil of the stuff at the old price of 3 isk would have cost me 150 mil, but because I waited I only pay 97 mil. I just saved 53 million by playing the markets and using the 0.01 price wars to my advantage. The most important thing for me is reducing my costs to maximise my profits on my final products so even saving 0.01 isk per unit of resources to me is very important.
Zorai Miraden	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:42:00 - [66] Here's a fix that might help. Remove about 2-3 0's from the isk and no longer allow for fraction of an isk prices. I know removing 3 0's will create a large inflation for the super cheap items and probably wouldn't be reasonable without adjusting mineral costs and much more but when 1 isk starts to have real value price wars will be much more meaningful rather than the current fights. I too find such undercutting annoying but then I don't usually sell on such highly competitive markets.
Zoltaris COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:43:00 - [67] Edited by: Zoltaris on 25/01/2008 12:45:54 I would really like it if there was 4 digit instead of 2 after the dot, so that it would be possible to undercut by 0.0001 isk instead of 0.01 For stuff like tritanium, that would make a good difference, as undercuting by 0.01 is a big % of the total value And for other stuff, i've seen people undercuting by 1m at times, when they do this a couple of time in a row, they can really crash the value of an item as most other sellers just follow by undercuting again by 0.01 isk Hell, for expensive stuff like T2 BS, i've seen people undercuting by more than 10m at once Undercuting by 0.01 isk (or 0.0001 if it was possible) is just a way to get priority without crashing the market ----- > Amongst the Top 10
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:45:00 - [68] Originally by: Kahega Amielden bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla mega-bla Thoughts? yes, you don't understand the meaning of aggressive market. also, PVP is not just shooty-shooty. people play PVP in market aswell --- planetary interaction idea!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:51:00 - [69] Originally by: Chain Daisy Oops I see someone with more brain already suggested that, and got a predictably whiny response from the people who like to undercut by trivial amounts. No real auction house allows bidders to work like that, you can go on all you like about how hard-nosed you're being, but you're not, you're just being time-wasters. Ever see an auctioneer taking bids from an audience? "And I'm bid... ten euros... do I hear ten euros and one cent? Ten euros and two cents?" You don't hear that, and you don't hear that 'cause it's a stupid waste of everyone's time. I like the idea of selling stuff at cost, but fear that if you sell at cost the .1 isk muppets may be able to simply buy out your stock and resell them at a higher price. It is not an an auction, it is a store. Ever seen how supermarkets and sicount give the "great" offers with 1 cent difference between them? Even when the item cost 100 or even 1000 euro and the only effect of the 1 cent difference is to remove 1 digit from the actual number. Plenty of people that fall for that.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:52:00 - [70] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/01/2008 12:52:52 Originally by: Shadowsword A logarythmic progression with 0.5% increments would be well adapted, I think. I agree that the current undercutting thing is ridiculous. Market pvp should be about who is able to accept the lowest margins, not just who got the most time to change orders. You can undercut by much more if you like, so it IS about who's able to accept the lowest margins. I know I typically make 500/1000 ISK increments on things which are >=100K in value. Occasionally, I'll undercut by 0.5M on higher-value items when I get tired of the 0.1/1/1000 ISK game ;P Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:02:00 - [71] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad Originally by: Kahega Amielden Logging on to Undercut someone by .01 ISK is mindless and stupid. Would market PVP not be a bit more interesting if you had to undercut someone by a meaningful amount? People generally wont care about .01 ISK so they wont bother. What would you consider meaningful? A logarythmic progression with 0.5% increments would be well adapted, I think. I agree that the current undercutting thing is ridiculous. Market pvp should be about who is able to accept the lowest margins, not just who got the most time to change orders. Way to go. Kill Jita and the other trade hubs adding another meaningless calculation to each change of price.
baltec1	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:05:00 - [72] Originally by: Rawr Cristina the difference being that people still have the ability to buy from Kmart. If the Kmart DVD were invisible / unobtainable until the same DVD from Walmart had been purchased however it would be more like what EVE is now. Trying to sell anything on the Jita market quickly is a nightmare unless you camp it all day long, constantly undercutting by 0.01 ISK, which is both frustrating and a massive waste of time. It's the kind of thing you'd have Macros doing.[/quote um, I can still see things that sell for more than the lowest bidder. If I wanted to I could buy those more expencive things but because I dont want to spend more than the lowest offer I will always go for the cheaper seller. Its exactly the same as my town center, the shop that sells the same item cheaper will get the sale. Honestly some of you people in here make me feel like a market expert sometimes...
Something Random Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:20:00 - [73] Oh this is all a good idea, lets take a free market and shackle it for my benefit Look you MADE me roll my eyes, i hate you.
Sniggerdly Hater	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:36:00 - [74] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Currently, "Competition" involves logging in a lot to undercut someone by .01 ISK, and that's just stupid. You fail big time. Nobody is forcing you to undercut by .01 so you can undercut as much as you want. If someone comes along and undercut you again, go ahead and undectu them by a bigger amount. You'll find that eventually either the undercutter or you will get out of the market due the 0 magin left on the product. Most likely it'll be you. And we'll have you again on the forum whining about it. I'd like to note that you haven't explained why this is stupid either, just hinted that its inconvinient for you since you can't log as frequently to update market orders. If you wanna play the market while not loggin on for more than once a day, you gotta start being smarter and stop trading in markets where there's competition. Let me put it in another way. Imagine a dozen shops in your city. They all have the same products, automated customer service, identical stores, at the same distance from your home and the road to them is identical in every way. And one advertises "the lowest price, guaranteed". You'll go to that one, as anyone else would, because its what makes sense. And thats 0.01 for you. .... 0.01 grefing FTW!
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:43:00 - [75] Posting in a whine thread. --
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:02:00 - [76] Edited by: Shadowsword on 25/01/2008 14:02:00 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Shadowsword A logarythmic progression with 0.5% increments would be well adapted, I think. I agree that the current undercutting thing is ridiculous. Market pvp should be about who is able to accept the lowest margins, not just who got the most time to change orders. Way to go. Kill Jita and the other trade hubs adding another meaningless calculation to each change of price. You prefer hundreds of buyers and sellers refreshing countless market sheets as many times as they can? Cutting off insignifiant and endless undercutting would ease a lot the serverload, not increase it. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:22:00 - [77] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 25/01/2008 14:02:00 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Shadowsword A logarythmic progression with 0.5% increments would be well adapted, I think. I agree that the current undercutting thing is ridiculous. Market pvp should be about who is able to accept the lowest margins, not just who got the most time to change orders. Way to go. Kill Jita and the other trade hubs adding another meaningless calculation to each change of price. You prefer hundreds of buyers and sellers refreshing countless market sheets as many times as they can? Cutting off insignifiant and endless undercutting would ease a lot the serverload, not increase it. 1. You assume its insignificant - I think that the market traders who have posted here demonstrate that it is not insignificant. 2. "It will solve lag!!1!!" The last refuge of a desperately failing argument... C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Dravius Luxor	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:45:00 - [78] No one can stop you from trading your items - they can only slow you down. The amount of money you make in a day on the market directly corresponds to how often you change your orders. I log into my trade characters 2/3 times a day, but if I'm broke I'll log in 5 times and make twice as much, twice as quickly. Perserverance = money in this galaxy. People undercut me all the time, and I laugh, because it is futile. All they are doing is costing themselves money, because I don't give up (no matter what). It goes something like this: A trader decides to compete with me. He tries. He loses a fortune. He cuts his losses and goes back to Jita, where he belongs. I profit .
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:53:00 - [79] People, really, undercutting by 0.01 isk is silly. What would happen if CCP made this often repeated manual action, now totally dependent on the time you are online and willing to spend it on, automatic. Say, you could set your order to automatically decrease with 0.01 isk each time you are undercut, to a certain minimum. What would happen? Of course, all orders would automatically lower until it reaches the point where the second-lowest seller isn't willing to undercut the lowest seller anymore. All other orders will sit at their owner-defined minimum. That is how a good market (should) work. Current system is inefficient for both sellers and buyers. True market equilibrium is not achieved. I'm sure happy CCP forced bid increments to bidders, otherwise we would get the same thing with contracts. Each bidder overbidding the other by 0.01 isk. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:55:00 - [80] Originally by: Freya Runestone the eve market isn't an auction. you set a price, and people either buy or not. there is no bidding involved. Actually, it is more like an auction, because you don't buy from a particular person. The customer buys a product, and the sellers make bids on that product. Obviously, the ones who can bid more often (undercut more often) can sell more stuff if they want to. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:59:00 - [81] Originally by: Chain Daisy No real auction house allows bidders to work like that, you can go on all you like about how hard-nosed you're being, but you're not, you're just being time-wasters. the eve market is not an auction house go back to wow if you -must- compare it to real life go put up a buy order for some stocks at a penny more than someone else Trashed sig, Shark was here
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:06:00 - [82] Originally by: Chain Daisy Oops I see someone with more brain already suggested that, and got a predictably whiny response from the people who like to undercut by trivial amounts. No real auction house allows bidders to work like that, you can go on all you like about how hard-nosed you're being, but you're not, you're just being time-wasters. Ever see an auctioneer taking bids from an audience? "And I'm bid... ten euros... do I hear ten euros and one cent? Ten euros and two cents?" You don't hear that, and you don't hear that 'cause it's a stupid waste of everyone's time. I like the idea of selling stuff at cost, but fear that if you sell at cost the .1 isk muppets may be able to simply buy out your stock and resell them at a higher price. Except, the Eve market is no auction house, it's more akin to the Dow Jones... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Anti Protagonist Archron Dusyfe Industries Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:11:00 - [83] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Ka Jolo I don't think the OP is arguing that "People should not be allowed to undercut by .01 ISK." Rather, I believe he is arguing that "People should be allowed to purchase from any seller they want." This is based on the attitude shared by many that, "If you're going to try to make the sale based on a lower price, make the price difference meaningful. If not, I'll buy from the guy who did price his item meaningfully below that of the next cheapest item--because it only costs me .01 ISK to do so." People ARE allowed to purchase from any seller they want. What are you talking about? Actually, people are only allowed to choose which station they purchase in. From there, you buy the lowest price in that station, no matter what you do. You may pay more for the lowest priced, but you still buy the lowest priced. I need a sig....
Sniggerdly Hater	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:13:00 - [84] Originally by: Merdaneth People, really, undercutting by 0.01 isk is silly. What would happen if CCP made this often repeated manual action, now totally dependent on the time you are online and willing to spend it on, automatic. Say, you could set your order to automatically decrease with 0.01 isk each time you are undercut, to a certain minimum. What would happen? Of course, all orders would automatically lower until it reaches the point where the second-lowest seller isn't willing to undercut the lowest seller anymore. All other orders will sit at their owner-defined minimum. Please. Oh please do. Please please please. I'll find the minimum price of every of these 0.01 whiners immediately by setting price at 0 margin, then either purchase their stock or undercut them by 0.01 while they are offline. Lol. Fail. Fail fail fail failfailfail fail fail.
Kaar Tath Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:21:00 - [85] Originally by: Anti Protagonist Actually, people are only allowed to choose which station they purchase in. From there, you buy the lowest price in that station, no matter what you do. You may pay more for the lowest priced, but you still buy the lowest priced. no you can choose highest price in station if you want (daft i know- but you can). NO you cannot have my stuff - go away
Metathron S'Erum	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:33:00 - [86] Originally by: Kaar Tath Originally by: Anti Protagonist Actually, people are only allowed to choose which station they purchase in. From there, you buy the lowest price in that station, no matter what you do. You may pay more for the lowest priced, but you still buy the lowest priced. no you can choose highest price in station if you want (daft i know- but you can). You always buy from the lowest priced seller at your chosen location at at least that price (you're allowed to pay more though).
Alz Shado Ever Flow Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:00:00 - [87] .01 isk on a 100m unit mineral order is 1m isk. That is not a trivial drop in value. The main problem with the undercutter's market isn't that the price drops are so small, but that by doing so you reset the order duration and thus avoid having to pay the brokers fees and taxes again. The better fix would be to eliminate 90d/30d orders and to not allow a price modification to set the time back to it's original length. 7 Day orders, max. Then you have to repay the taxes. That would provide more stimulus to the economy (orders change more frequently, which fluxuates prices farther) and create a bigger isk sink.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:30:00 - [88] It also completely prevents ISK sellers from transferring money by buying 1 Tritanium on the market for 1,000,000,000 ISK (since they can't control which seller the money goes to - it always goes to the lowest). Contracts are another matter, but still, there's a damn good reason. Besies, if I want to take the time to undercut by precisely 0.01 ISK, and someone else doesn't, why shouldn't profit from it? -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:04:00 - [89] I think it's funny, too, when people try to bring up the "But you don't undercut by 0.01 dollars in real life!" Well, when everything else is pretty much equal, yes, you do. Even Wal-Mart always charges 0.13 dollars less than the other guy across the street. But even more... gas stations. One on one side of the street, one on the other. The one charging one or two cents per gallon less gets the customers (unless it's a really busy street, and this one just happens to allow me to not turn against traffic). So, undercut by 0.01 exists in real life. Time to deal with it in Eve, too. My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:44:00 - [90] Originally by: S****dly Hater Originally by: Merdaneth People, really, undercutting by 0.01 isk is silly. What would happen if CCP made this often repeated manual action, now totally dependent on the time you are online and willing to spend it on, automatic. Say, you could set your order to automatically decrease with 0.01 isk each time you are undercut, to a certain minimum. What would happen? Of course, all orders would automatically lower until it reaches the point where the second-lowest seller isn't willing to undercut the lowest seller anymore. All other orders will sit at their owner-defined minimum. Please. Oh please do. Please please please. I'll find the minimum price of every of these 0.01 whiners immediately by setting price at 0 margin, then either purchase their stock or undercut them by 0.01 while they are offline. I don't think you understand. A. There is no such thing as a 0 margin. B. Undercutting is fine. Profit margins being determined by who has more time to undercut constantly is irritating. C. If you set your order below my minimum order, my order won't move, since it won't trigger the minimum price. You need to bid exactly equal 0.01 isk more than my minimum price to find my minimum price. Perhaps you like the challenge? D. If you want to purchase my stock at my minimum price and try to get a higher price for it, that's fine to. I don't want to prevent good traders from doing such thing, just want to make it more about psychology and market insight than time online. Originally by: S****dly Hater Lol. Fail. Fail fail fail failfailfail fail fail. I don't think there is any need for responding to my comment this way. You are only making a fool of yourself IMO. Just try to understand my proposal and respond to it. Repeating a single word over and over doesn't make your position any stronger. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery

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