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For crying out load stop the T2 lottery

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Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:36:00 - [1] Edited by: Morkt Drak on 25/03/2004 21:43:06 This really does seem now to have gone well beyond the realms of any such thing as "Luck" or "artifacts". I've now received reports of FIVE people who have been awarded Elite Frigate BPos twice. Thats the exact same Uber-Uber-uber rare BPO going to the same char from the same agent twice in a row. FIVE TIMES Im not sure exactly what CCP regard as proof, what Hellmar needs to see to get motivated ... but for the love of god stop handing out anymore BPs until this is properly and seriously looked into. Simple fact of the matter is that an ever growing percentage of your players are becomming more and more worried over this apaprent problem and we need to know it is actually being dealt with and not brushed under the carpet. I will be exstatic with joy if this is nothing but some flukey aberation but as it stands right now I simply cannot see it being anything other than a serious bug or flaw in the Lottery. This needed acting upon weeks ago, but as none of you have a time machine "now" will have to be the next best time. Stop the lottery.
Tyria Evenstar	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:41:00 - [2] CCP think their right. Playberbase thinks they are wrong. Nothing will happen Morkt. -Tyria.
Feral	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:42:00 - [3] Edited by: Feral on 25/03/2004 21:43:23 Add to that theres a thread somewhere were some reports getting 5 bpo's via a method of cancelling there research at 1k rp's and restarting, plus another person receiving 4 via the same method. How can this possibly be described as either "fair" or "lucky"? Edit: corrected typo.
Sabahl	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:42:00 - [4] Seconded. This lottery is broken. We now have enough data in the players' domain to absolutely state that your code is faulty. You may not want to believe it is true but the numbers are not lying. And I would like to add that as a player who decided in December to continue playing Eve in the hope that Castor would allow me the chance of being able to obtain a tech 2 BP, thus sustaining my interest in the game, this isn't the way I hoped things would pan out. I voiced my concerns about the lottery early on in the patch forum, when it was still on the drawing board. The shoddy implementation and lack of foresight as to the overall dynamics involved, coupled with what has now been demonstrated to be a faulty implementation has more or less made the most important player-effecting part of Castor a complete joke. Someone please wake me up when we are out of Beta.
Mr nStuff	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:44:00 - [5] I have 20,000 research points for my Minmatar Starship Engineering research. Still no blueprint offers. I have two other R&D agents that have round 300 Research Points each. Still no offers.. For a year now i've helped newbies on the help channel learn the ropes of the game. Maybe even kept a few from cancelling their accounts.. Still no T2 blueprints though.. 5 R&D Agents, 10months, Zero BPO Offers.. Onboard navigational [Planetary Avoidance] computer. My account will be suspended at the end of the current play period. Expires on 19. September 2004
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:47:00 - [6] I feel sorry for those who have dedicated hours and hours of game time doing agent missions/R&D and get nothing. Then Johnny-Cum-Lately does 3 R&D missions and gets an Interceptor BP to sell for 0.5 billion isk. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:49:00 - [7] This has got nothing at all to do with how many point any individual has. Try to get that straight right from the start. This is about multiple repeat winners. It has nothing at all whatsoever to do with how many ruddy RPs you, me, or anybody else has and any feelings of being "left out". Nothing. At all
Sabahl	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:49:00 - [8] Before this thread gets derailed by people talking about how many RPs they have please understand this is not about NOT getting BPs. This is about the BP assignment mechanism being broken. So please, no more posts about "I have fifteen squillion RPs and haven;t yet got my Snargle Blaster BP". Thaaaannnks.
Temujin Destovai	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:49:00 - [9] Lets not forget the guys who have gotten their third blueprints from the same agent now... The Chronicles of Xanadu
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:52:00 - [10] The same happened with the last "big-agent-thing": implants. Getting them multiply was a matter of cancelling certain missions....same bug? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Xelios	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:52:00 - [11] Quote: Someone please wake me up when we are out of Beta. You may as well just leave the game now then. This game will always be in beta,the only time it will stop being in beta is when CCP stops adding content to it. So unless you want nothing new to enter the game ever again, it will be in a type of beta at all times. The lottery does need to be stopped. A couple people in MASS have many thousands of RP in research fields and have not seen a damn thing in the past 2 months, while people with under 1k RP have gotten several bp's. It's obvious the system is flawed and CCP needs to look at it right now. Lets get on it folks.
Sabahl	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:53:00 - [12] Quote: I feel sorry for those who have dedicated hours and hours of game time doing agent missions/R&D and get nothing. Then Johnny-Cum-Lately does 3 R&D missions and gets an Interceptor BP to sell for 0.5 billion isk. Irrelevent as well, Joshua. The fact is certain people have received the same BP twice from certain agents. This points to an error in the code to allot the BPs. And for the benefit of those who can't join the dots, if people are being assigned multiple BPs in a non-random manner (which they obviously are) then it is more or less a dead cert that the original BP assignment process is non-random as well. In which case a large percentage of the research agent runners have been wasting their time.
Skillz	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:53:00 - [13] ROFL, that would be so funny. If it's true. Keep on flaming, lamers.
Ankh	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:54:00 - [14] Same here... 23,000 RP's so far and not a sniff of a bp, all research is giving me atm is more toxic waste to haul across low security systems. Its like collecting airmiles day after day, but having to pay for them and not being able to cash them in. If I thought it would culminate in an offer of a tech 2 cruiser in time, it would seem worthwhile, but the way bp's are being allocated atm does not fill me with confidence. Does anyone know if there's any correlation between the number of RP's you have earned, and the value of the bp you get offered?
Sabahl	Posted - 2004.03.25 21:58:00 - [15] Tease, I think your findings are symptomatic but not absolute. It wouldn't explain why the same people are getting the same BPs from the same agent, for one thing. A person with 20k RPs getting an interceptor BP and then getting the same interceptor BP a week or two later with a couple of thousand RPs points to something a tad less obvious being wrong.
Talaq	Posted - 2004.03.25 22:01:00 - [16] well tedious as the missions are thats not the point, point being that with the bugged system, some people are getting multiple bps. and others none. yet another flawed plan, way to go ccp best way to end this is just admit there is a flaw, phase it out and never use it again Q: If a tree fell in a forest, and it would hit a mime. would you care? If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence of trying.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.03.25 22:07:00 - [17] check market forum and see how many "alts" are selling tech 2 bp's because "they dont want to be hassled ingame". LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.03.25 22:13:00 - [18] Quote: I've now received reports of FIVE people who have been awarded Elite Frigate BPos twice. Not exactly the same thing but I know of one person who got a T-II BP (non-frigate) and two days later with maybe all of 80 RPs got a T-II frigate BP. I am about as positive that this was the case as can be short of it having had happened to me. While the above is not exactly the same situation you are on about it smacks of the same trend too closely to be ignored. On the upside waiting to get a T-II generally sees the chances for a more useful T-II BP to be put in the game. The first T-II BP was what...a Micro-Smartbomb? By waiting you may have a chance at perhaps a weapon BP or somesuch as they roll into the game (assuming they are indeed out there). Not much to hang your hat on I know but perhaps it'll make you feel better while hauling toxic waste to another planet 12j across low sec space.
Synex	Posted - 2004.03.25 22:15:00 - [19] * Heads off to murder his 20k RP agent and alop with a new 100 RP agent... *
Deadflip2	Posted - 2004.03.25 22:18:00 - [20] I gave up ages ago............... --- "this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me. I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist OMG im a pretzel!!!
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2004.03.25 22:23:00 - [21] Quote: Edited by: Tease on 25/03/2004 22:02:47 Quote: Tease, I think your findings are symptomatic but not absolute. It wouldn't explain why the same people are getting the same BPs from the same agent, for one thing. A person with 20k RPs getting an interceptor BP and then getting the same interceptor BP a week or two later with a couple of thousand RPs points to something a tad less obvious being wrong. except that I shared my findings in game with a few people 2-3 weeks ago and all of them are experiencing the same thing. I won't say who they are since they fear repercussions for "exploiting". I don't consider it an "exploit" because we've told Papa Smurf numerous times what's going on and he continues to deny any bugs or problems in the lottery code. I remember you saying all that.. I thought "No way - no way could CCP have made such a fubar of it" - i really hope you're wrong.. but everyday that hope gets smaller and smaller.
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2004.03.25 23:10:00 - [22] What we can glean from the (small amount of) information that's been given out is that enormous alarm bells should be ringing over this. There are two problems in my opinion. First off is that statistically a lot of the BP rewards will be going to alts, new players and people idling R&D projects with the minimum of skills rather than to people willing to specialise. Suprisingly this is part of the game design - bizarre and wrong IMHO, just like the DCM skill giving out about the same morphite as someone mining for megacyte and getting about the same quantity of morphite over time as a byproduct. Silly, but not a bug. Secondly there are the cases of multiple BPs going to winners - this is so statistically improbable that I find it extremely hard to believe there isn't a bug. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Aethelgrin	Posted - 2004.03.25 23:24:00 - [23] Edited by: Aethelgrin on 25/03/2004 23:26:10 No. We have so little information that we can't draw any conclusions from this at all. Morkt knows of 5 people who've received the same rare BPO from the same agent twice. We also know that due to his public campaign against the lottery, Morkt is the person people are most likely to tell when it happens, thus skewing the proportions a bit. We do not know how many of those BPOs have been awarded, so we don't know what proportion of BPOs have gone to repeat winners, even if Morkt weren't skewing the results with his campaign. We do not know how many potential winners there are, or what the average number of RP held by each one is. We're missing at least 2 critical pieces of information in order to conclude there is something wrong, and what we do know isn't objective information. You've gone completely mad, Morkt. You have no rational reason to think the system is broken. You have anecdotal evidence within a contextual vacuum. Yes, I do research (3 agents), and I've received nothing so far, but unless your default position is to assume the system is broken a priori, you cannot reasonably conclude the system is broken.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2004.03.25 23:38:00 - [24] *******s.
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2004.03.25 23:43:00 - [25] Quote: No. We have so little information that we can't draw any conclusions from this at all...or what the average number of RP held by each one is... Actually we know what, at a point in time a couple of weeks ago, the total RP was in the biggest category. We also know the RP of the best researcher in that category. This is enough to work out what the greatest chance of winning a single draw was at that time. From there you can make upper limit estimates on the probabilities of winning multiple prints in the same area - in fact the true probabilities will be much lower (guaranteed) as you lose the RPs when you complete a project. Check for some of my posts in the mission forum for the various logical steps I've gone thorough - it's a whole lot more than anecdotal evidence. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2004.03.25 23:43:00 - [26] Have any of you considered that maybe Papa Smurf decided to have the "Infinite Improbability Drive" run the BP Lottery system? Ya see, to him, its working "totally awesome", but he doesnt realize that instead of giving other people Blue Prints, system operates in the most improbable way, thus giving the same person another BP. So yeah, its technically working just fine. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.03.25 23:52:00 - [27] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 25/03/2004 23:55:42 I've got it, I've got it, put the flame out here myself, nothing more to see... Just fix it now, denial is as becoming as a combover. Convert Stations
Murple	Posted - 2004.03.26 00:14:00 - [28] I predicted this would happen pre-Castor. Sure enough, people are getting screwed. Why not make RP's a harvest item like isk through various methods? There should be a set high limit, I need X amount of RP's to get bp Y. You should have to invest raw materials and equipment for research just like real life. Only those who work towards their bp, should get a bp. We play this game to play the game, not to sit around and twiddle our thumbs every 18-24 hours! Now is the time to revamp this flawed research lottery system. CCP, allow your players to "mine" RP's. Reward those who spend hours each day working towards that goal. Those people who log in each day for only 5 minutes shouldn't get a 100 million isk bp. It's the way MMOG's have always worked. Hard work = large reward, it's the way things should always be. This would at least end the damaging controversy of a bugged lottery. Gotta love my city-sized roid vacuum cleaner!
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2004.03.26 00:29:00 - [29] Actually, I don't mind it that one or two people with tiny RPs might get a BP. What I do find bonkers is that the statistics of it mean that these people actually end up getting most of the BPs - and that's before we start thinking of any possible bugs that are in there. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2004.03.26 00:41:00 - [30] Quote: Actually, I don't mind it that one or two people with tiny RPs might get a BP. What I do find bonkers is that the statistics of it mean that these people actually end up getting most of the BPs - and that's before we start thinking of any possible bugs that are in there. Aye. The principle of the "lottery" and the entire Agent RP thing is something Ive supported and still do. As I said back then though CCP would have to ensure that it was incredibly well checked out for bugs etc. I think what dissipoints me the most, beyond any potential bugs, is that there does seem to be little incentive to "work" research agents at all and the best "strategy" is simply to use RPM to cover more disparate fields, rather than to specialise and work at one. But thats not really something for here and now... atm i just want to know that ccp is taking this seriously and will see if these claims are a) true b) indicate a problem and c) fix it if there is... oh and d) tell us exactly wth is going on.

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