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Kunnia
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Posted - 2008.01.29 18:54:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Kunnia on 29/01/2008 18:55:35
Edited by: Kunnia on 29/01/2008 18:54:39
 Originally by: Poister
Edited by: Poister on 29/01/2008 18:34:22
Originally by: Kunnia
Stuff.
just how would you spot a 10 man logon trap in 0.0?
A 20 man logon trap in low sec?
Or even a 50 man logon trap in empire?
Im sorry although you show some "out of the box thinking" this Option would fail. With the acception of major fleet logon traps.
Ah yes, but the way i see things is, a small login trap is a small problem.
And yes it would indeed be harder to spot in lowsec, especially with small numbers of people doing it,
but i was under the impression this problem was mainly 0.0 space.
And even so, if it doenst provide a bulletproof method of detection,
Id prefer it over the other suggestions ive seen flotaing around,
as this would not hurt anyone else then the ones doing this crap.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.01.29 19:32:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Poister
Edited by: Poister on 29/01/2008 18:34:22
Originally by: Kunnia
Stuff.
just how would you spot a 10 man logon trap in 0.0?
A 20 man logon trap in low sec?
Or even a 50 man logon trap in empire?
Im sorry although you show some "out of the box thinking" this Option would fail. With the acception of major fleet logon traps.
Yes, CCP, please make things obvious and easy.
With persistent map count all the information would be available as if no one logged, leaving it up to you to parse it into usefull sets.
...
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.01.29 21:14:00 -
[63]
Quote:
Then CCP looks at the logs for the ships that are in your kilmail... and if they all happened to log in right where you were than that would be a login trap
Pffft not even close. People log in at the same time and the same place all the time for completely innocuous reasons.
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Karlemgne
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:20:00 -
[64]
Its not actually legal. In fact, last time I checked it was a bannable offense.
Does this mean CCP actually does anything about it? No.
I consider that tactic extremely lame, and would encourage everyone who is a "victim" of a log-in trap to petition it.
Maybe if they get 20 petitions in two months about a particular corp/alliance/group engaging in this kind of activity CCP might do something.
-Karlemgne
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Ivor Gunn
No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:21:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Karlemgne
Its not actually legal. In fact, last time I checked it was a bannable offense.
Then you didnt check very well. It's legal and you will never be banned for choosing to not play the game.
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Karlemgne
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.01.30 20:41:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Karlemgne on 30/01/2008 20:42:38
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: Karlemgne
Its not actually legal. In fact, last time I checked it was a bannable offense.
Then you didnt check very well. It's legal and you will never be banned for choosing to not play the game.
Proof, please, or link. I'd like to see this.
Its not about choosing to "not play the game." Its about choosing to use third party software like Ventrilo, Teamspeak, or MSN etc to give yourself an un-fair advantage over other players.
So while you can log-in and log-out as you like, the problem arises when someone on your vent says to you:
"Alright we're going to trap these guys, everyone but the Drake log-out"
"Okay, here they are, everyone log back in!"
Also, you should rethink your normative position. If someone agresses me, and I log out because I don't want to die (or "play") my ship won't vanish--I'll be popped anyway.
This isn't "punishment" for not playing. Its altering the game rules as to limit an un-intended exploit.
Similarly, log-in traps aren't illegal because "you chose not to play the game," but because you are playing the game, and cheating ta-boot.
-Karlemgne
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Aphrodite Whiterose
Amarr
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.01.30 20:44:00 -
[67]
Maybe they could just change the way local works to only show the people that have recently spoken instead of everyone in the system, ships scanners could still be used but it would make regular ambushes more viable. I think Local is a bit overpowered really as its not very realistic instantly being able to tell all the people in the system without scanning/probing or something
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Amarr - Playing EVE in Hardcore Mode since 2007 |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.01.30 20:49:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Karlemgne
Maybe if they get 20 petitions in two months about a particular corp/alliance/group engaging in this kind of activity CCP might do something.
-Karlemgne
You mean, for example, CCP would then remove Local, remove "pilots in system" info from the star map, replace those with a complex scanner solution and make ships in space persistent? Stuff that would actually allow for ambush tactics without having to log out while providing for some counters?
Or is wining simply your preferred method of PvP?
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.01.30 21:27:00 -
[69]
Quote:
Its about choosing to use third party software like Ventrilo, Teamspeak, or MSN etc to give yourself an un-fair advantage over other players.
Oh lord you're full of it. All those are free and anyone can use them.
What about people sitting in the same room? LAN party? What are you going to do about those?
What if all those people are logged in to EVE but on alts and they give the command through EVE chat channels? Hey look, no 3rd party software required!
Just think about how impossible it is to enforce such a policy. What are the ban messages going to say? "You were banned for logging on at 10:37 am?" There is no way for EVE to prove people executed a login trap. When everyone gets home from work I imagine you have corp mates logging on in very quick succession and at the same places.
What's the exact time that must elapse between logons before people get banned for doing a logon trap? "Ok I just logged in no on else log in for 30 seconds" How will people will coordinate this without using the very 3rd party software you're complaining about?
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Valan
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.31 15:55:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Valan on 31/01/2008 16:06:06
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: Valan
I thought CCP did a u-turn on this one. They said it was an exploit then pretty much said they weren't going to enforce it.
If you can find me an example of them saying this, then i'll change my stance, but i've regularly petitioned this for clarification since i started playing the game and every response has been "not an exploit"
I've looked back but the search doesn't go far enough back. This is what I remember and may be complete crap lol
From memory when you used to log back in you appeared instantly where you disappeared. I remember a big arguement coming out of a major log in trap in Syndicate and CCP saying it was an exploit. It may have even been m0o who did it, they used to find exploits for teh Devs to ban :)
Now due to the difficulty of managing that as an exploit the emergency warp was put in. So at least the victim had time to bail or prepare. That was back in early 2004 EVE serach couldn't find any posts for 2003.
EDIT : Found one thread regarding insta login
m0o
I'm pretty sure thats why emergency warp was put in and thats why it went from exploit to non-exploit.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
Taguchi Hiroko
Deadly Addiction
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Posted - 2008.01.31 15:59:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Taguchi Hiroko on 31/01/2008 16:01:17
it is legal. I have got it pulled on me a dozen times and the GM reply to petitions had always been: it is legal. I have pulled it on other people a dozen times and never got any complaints from CCP. You can even log off two dozens of cap ships at a POS and wait for hostile caps to show up at the reinforced POS and have a gank of your life, which is exactly what a lot of alliances are doing nowadays (won't name, heh), and CCP won't do **** about it.
If it is indeed illegal as many have been bs'ing in this thread, then CCP owes me a dozen ships lost this way, and they owe LV the whole cap fleet that they lost to RA back then due to such a trap, which brought the downfall of LV. I don't think so.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.01.31 17:23:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko
If it is indeed illegal as many have been bs'ing in this thread, then CCP owes me a dozen ships lost this way, and they owe LV the whole cap fleet that they lost to RA back then due to such a trap, which brought the downfall of LV. I don't think so.
I never understood this need to wallow in your own misery at being outsmarted and outmaneuvered.
...
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Zarin
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Posted - 2008.01.31 17:26:00 -
[73]
Originally by: cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
They've always been legal you tool. CCP cannot dictate when you play the game.
hey you brainless person ccp has said a year or so back they wheren't legal but then again your a noob so...
Why would you ask a question if you claim to know the answer ?
Anyway some of the most powerful alliances in game are in the position they are in now because they used this 'tactic' extensively in poorer times.
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Ivy Elmara
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Posted - 2008.01.31 17:34:00 -
[74]
Interesting how many ebil pirates defend log on traps who at the same time want every logoffski user to burn irl.
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Taguchi Hiroko
Deadly Addiction
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:39:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko
If it is indeed illegal as many have been bs'ing in this thread, then CCP owes me a dozen ships lost this way, and they owe LV the whole cap fleet that they lost to RA back then due to such a trap, which brought the downfall of LV. I don't think so.
I never understood this need to wallow in your own misery at being outsmarted and outmaneuvered.
if for you the definition of being smart and agil is something as lame as the log in trap. you must be desperate.
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Ivor Gunn
No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:40:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Karlemgne
Proof, please, or link. I'd like to see this.
Quoting GM correspondence is against the EULA. I can't. You'll have to check for yourself, which you're more than welcome to do, because i know i'm right.
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duckmonster
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 03:20:00 -
[77]
Log in traps are hilarious and there should be more of it.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.02.01 03:22:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko
If it is indeed illegal as many have been bs'ing in this thread, then CCP owes me a dozen ships lost this way, and they owe LV the whole cap fleet that they lost to RA back then due to such a trap, which brought the downfall of LV. I don't think so.
I never understood this need to wallow in your own misery at being outsmarted and outmaneuvered.
if for you the definition of being smart and agil is something as lame as the log in trap. you must be desperate.
Sore loser much?
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Taguchi Hiroko
Deadly Addiction
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Posted - 2008.02.01 22:52:00 -
[79]
if that's an invitation up your rear end, I'd say no thanks. go find someone else.
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Summersnow
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Posted - 2008.02.01 22:57:00 -
[80]
Its obviously an exploit, but haven't you heard, exploits are legal in eve 
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Westly Synpa
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 23:14:00 -
[81]
Originally by: duckmonster
Log in traps are hilarious and there should be more of it.
its always funny when you have 70 guys come out of warp at once on a gate with a guy being pinned down.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.02.02 03:12:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko
if that's an invitation up your rear end, I'd say no thanks. go find someone else.
That sounds like some kind of paranoia laced with insecure delusions, in addition to that guilt and envy complex you displayed earlier.
You meet the damnedest people on the intarwebz!
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Phrixus Zephyr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.02 03:31:00 -
[83]
Originally by: cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
They've always been legal you tool. CCP cannot dictate when you play the game.
hey you brainless person ccp has said a year or so back they wheren't legal but then again your a noob so...
No they didnt.
Go back to popping shuttles in Vecamia or something.
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Ademaro Imre
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.02 03:34:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 02/02/2008 03:35:55
CCP should reexamine the issue. CCP is threatening to ban corp members, or their CEO's that join alliances and quit the alliance to avoid an empire war declaration. And joining an alliance and quitting the alliance is a seemingly perfect game mechanic to use - but according to CCP, if someone else intends to declare was you you, you can not use game mechanics to avoid or shorten a war. CCP intended for a corp to be able to declare war on other corps.
CCP has also intended for pilots to be able to see a moving average of the number of active and docked pilots in every system, and a moving average of the number of jumps in every system. Logon traps completely circumvent CCP's clear intentions, without even using game mechanics (but using game mechanics in other situations gets you banned). While CCP can not control when people log in or out, there have been hundreds of suggestions on how to prevent a logon trap.
The aim of politics is to keep the populace alarmed and clamorous to be saved by menacing it with imaginary hobgoblins. The urge to save humanity is a false front for the urge to rule it. |
Isiah Petrokov
Amarr
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.02 06:29:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ursula LeGuinn
I've never used a logon trap myself, but I'm actually kinda glad they exist.
They provide a way for people to actually launch an ambush. As the game is now, Local makes launching an ambush basically impossible, even if all the participating ships gimp themselves by equipping cloaking devices.
Don't get me wrong... I'm not one of the loonies who thinks Local should be removed, at least not until it's replaced with an equivalent (but not omnipotent) intelligence-gathering tool.
One option that could be uses so that gangs have to actually "search out" their targets, is make the Constellation Chat the New Local. THat way, you hve a general idea of the targets where abouts via "intercepted transmissions", yet, must still scout out and find them. This would also allow for the whole ambush thing a bit better too. Just a thought.
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Taguchi Hiroko
Deadly Addiction
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Posted - 2008.02.02 10:13:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko
if that's an invitation up your rear end, I'd say no thanks. go find someone else.
That sounds like some kind of paranoia laced with insecure delusions, in addition to that guilt and envy complex you displayed earlier.
You meet the damnedest people on the intarwebz!
exactly, ones with a sore rectal discharge and openly inviting strangers onboard... gosh, give it up already, I don't share your fetish.
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Karlemgne
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.02 10:31:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Ulstan
Oh lord you're full of it. All those are free and anyone can use them.
I am not "full of it." I never said using Ventrilo or Team Speak was against the rules. In fact, I use Ventrilo daily. What I am saying is there is a distinction between using Ventrilo to say, "hey I'm being attacked! Help" while you are in game, and using vent to have people log off and log back in to "trap" people.
The difference, my friend is this. Ventrilo utilizes voice which mimics mechanics already in game, such as eve voice or text chat.
However, when you log out and you are no longer playing the game using third party software to coordinate a log-in trap is not allowed.
Last time I checked, one of the game mechanics of eve was NOT being able to chat via text or voice with your friends and corpmates playing eve. For example, I can't access corp chat while logged out of the game. Similarly, I can not utilize eve-voice, while logged out of the game.
Quote:
What about people sitting in the same room? LAN party? What are you going to do about those?
First, I'm not responsible for doing anything about anyone who *might* be breaking CCPs established game rules. That responsibility lies with CCP and its employees.
Second, your argument is ridiculous. I'm simply pointing out *why* I believe log-in traps are considered exploits by CCP.
The analogy is poor anyway. There is a clear difference between having people physically occupying the same space, and people coordinating elaborate traps with people all over the world with the use of third part voice software.
Quote:
What if all those people are logged in to EVE but on alts and they give the command through EVE chat channels? Hey look, no 3rd party software required!
Maybe its because its three AM, but I don't understand the above quoted passage.
Suffice it to say, there are CLEAR examples of how using third party software to do an end around on game mechanics is a bannable offense.
If you don't believe me I suggest you download a mining macro, use it, and then inform the GMs you're doing it. I'll wait here for the results. 
Quote:
Just think about how impossible it is to enforce such a policy.
The possibility of enforcing any rule-set in an MMO was not the point of my thread. I don't like log-in traps, but I never made a normative statement about whether or not any "rules" in place against them were justified.
I also didn't speculate on whether or not such a policy was enforcible.
If I were to hazard a guess, I think you're right. Its impossible to enforce these rules most of the time. Its also impossible to enforce the rules on trading currency for game items. It doesn't mean the CCP doesn't, or wouldn't try.
-Karl
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2008.02.02 11:42:00 -
[88]
Using a third party program to give you an in game advantage that is not possible otherwise has always been considered against the rules in just about every online game ever made...
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Valan
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.02 12:36:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Karlemgne
Second, your argument is ridiculous. I'm simply pointing out *why* I believe log-in traps are considered exploits by CCP.
CCP do not consider a login trap an exploit. They did when there was no emergency warp and you logged exactly where you were and could lock immediately.
The log in trap was fixed with an emergency warp in. Therefore its not an exploit anymore.
You can believe its an exploit. But your statement above is incorrect, CCP don't beleive its an exploit.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
Dukath
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.02 13:00:00 -
[90]
The only solution that will work is and always has been persistent ships.
Especially now with poses and stations all over the place there is no reason not to introduce this anymore.
One possible exception being pods. Pods could disappear so players could drop off their ship in a friendly carrier/mom/titan before logging.
2nd change, removing local would be a nice addition but too many carebears would whine ....
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