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Zal'arok	Posted - 2008.01.29 03:00:00 - [1] I've been using cruisers for some time now and am closing in on being skilled for a bc. What I'm wondering is what is a better hybrid ship: ferox, thorax, or a brutix?
Ally Poo ExoGeni	Posted - 2008.01.29 03:06:00 - [2] thorax is a cruiser, ferox looks tuff but still a momma's boy so if you had to choose a BC for hybrids go for brutix. and if your caldari training hybrids, i hope you fly gallente, and if you dont, train missiles. ===============Sleep is for the Dead===============
EyawNayr Caldari MX3 Development	Posted - 2008.01.29 03:19:00 - [3] Don't even bother with the ferox. I fly caldari, and the ship is great for missles; but it is not worth the investment for hybrids, even with the bonuses. Brutix is a damn good ship, as long as you can put time into some drones. Otherwise I suppose the Ferox could be somewhat of a stopgap, but don't consider it a long-term investment fitted with hybrids.
Zal'arok	Posted - 2008.01.29 03:20:00 - [4] ya, i was on a role with ships ending in "x", should have said myrmidon (as i fixed it to say)
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.29 03:41:00 - [5] ferox with t2 medium blasters and 2 ham launchers brutix is probably the best. although the myrmadon is also quite sexy.
UGLYUGLY	Posted - 2008.01.29 04:22:00 - [6] Since you asked for hybrid specifically, go with the brutix. Its bonuses makes it an excellent blaster boat.
BlackMatrix Gallente L-O-S-T	Posted - 2008.01.29 09:16:00 - [7] Originally by: UGLYUGLY Since you asked for hybrid specifically, go with the brutix. Its bonuses makes it an excellent blaster boat. I agree Brutix is excellent http://eve-lost.org.uk
Ender Flagrante Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.29 10:06:00 - [8] Edited by: Ender Flagrante on 29/01/2008 10:06:24 Originally by: Zal'arok ya, i was on a role with ships ending in "x", should have said myrmidon (as i fixed it to say) Nope. Myrmidon does not get a hybrid damage bonus. I would say the Brutix is what you are looking for. I have no experience flying the Caldari ships, so maybe they have something better.
Sephra Star	Posted - 2008.01.29 12:17:00 - [9] Before geting my Battle Cruiser I chose which Battleship I would eventually move to so that my skill training in the BC would compliment the move.
Ancy Denaries Caldari Under Heavy Fire	Posted - 2008.01.29 12:58:00 - [10] Even though I love the Ferox I have to say go with the Brutix. The Ferox is, and remains, a piece of flying crap :( Originally by: "GM Tacgnol" Oveur descended from the heavens (also known as the second floor) and beat us all with his nerfbat.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.29 14:49:00 - [11] Simply put, the Brutix outclasses the Ferox in every way (more guns that hit harder, faster, and more drones). You have some choices: 1) Stick with the ferox and the huge disappointment that it is, till you can fly a Rokh effectively. Solo is not an option - with your gang you could be a support ship (tank, or ewar, or even logistics - or limited damage at long range with rails). 2) Train up the Gallente Brutix. I don't even fly Caldari medium hybrid snipers because of their disappointing performance for me (Harpy or Rokh however are well designed snipers). __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
AnKahn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.01.29 15:09:00 - [12] I don't think you mentioned what you want to use the ships for. I am Caldari currently crosstraining Gallente. My general feeling is For PvE tech one Caldari is >> tech two everything else For PvP tech one Gallente is >> tech 2 Caldari. If you have Caldari skills already, keep training shields and missiles until you can do lvl 4s easily, unless you have another preferred way to make isk.
TimMc Gallente Vidar Fierd Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.29 16:29:00 - [13] Best PvP Sniper: Ferox Best PvP (imo): Brutix Best PvE: Myrmidon
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.01.29 16:38:00 - [14] Originally by: TimMc Best PvP Sniper: Ferox ...where "best" != "good", but rather "best" = "quite bad but the only option" Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Xsag Caldari SPECTRE Ops Cult of War	Posted - 2008.01.29 16:45:00 - [15] ferox = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap ferox fitted with launchers = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap ferox fitted with rails = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap i hope my feelings on the ferox are clear :) i only fly caldari currently and its a waste of 20m ~n00b of all trades~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~ ~Now with a face!~
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Ishina Fel ...where "best" != "good", but rather "best" = "quite bad but the only option" 250mm rail brutix will massively outperform a 250mm rail ferox. The ferox might have 50% higher range at bc 5, but with cruiser guns, that's insignificant enough to make up for the 2 extra turrets, the damage bonus and the drones the brutix has.
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:53:00 - [17] Sniping implies breaking 100km range. A Brutix will indeed outperform a Ferox in just about every conceivable setup (maybe apart from missile fittign ability ), and will make a devastating midrange fighter with rails, but a sniper it is not. Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:56:00 - [18] Originally by: EyawNayr Don't even bother with the ferox. I fly caldari, and the ship is great for missles; but it is not worth the investment for hybrids, even with the bonuses. Brutix is a damn good ship, as long as you can put time into some drones. Otherwise I suppose the Ferox could be somewhat of a stopgap, but don't consider it a long-term investment fitted with hybrids. I'd agree. The Ferrox is just a bland design altogether. Sure you get 50% extra range on your hybrids at BC V, but that equates to about 100 - 110 KM max range and at that point your basically not going to be hitting very hard at all. Plus, grid is so pitifully short on the ferrox that simply fitting 5 250mm rail II's is a pain, much less your two missile launchers (or whatever) and your tank and other components. With launchers, it becomes an okay ship but it's outclassed in every possible way by the Drake in this regard as well. As a caldari pilot, you don't get too many options for using Hyrbrids. The Rokh is the king of the extreme range snipers, and the Harpy is one of the few AFRIGS with any arguable purpose in PvP. The Eagle may be good, but having never used on I can't really comment on it's capabilities. Every other hybrid using ship caldari has is generally outclassed by it's missile cousins in all but incredibly rare scenarios.
cytomatrix Caldari Cosmic Ev0lution	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:57:00 - [19] Originally by: Xsag ferox = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap ferox fitted with launchers = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap ferox fitted with rails = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap i hope my feelings on the ferox are clear :) i only fly caldari currently and its a waste of 20m I tried to sell my ferox to the locals, but nobody wanted it. Not even for 16mil. :( ______________________________________________________________
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.29 18:17:00 - [20] With no tracking equiptment the ferox hits out to about 80km with 200's, and 110 with 250's. The unbonused heavys reach 84km with max skills no implants. Asuming you stay in heavy launcher range you end up doing about 180dps. Thats with 3 dammage mods :(
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.29 18:46:00 - [21] Edited by: Omarvelous on 29/01/2008 18:47:00 Originally by: Ishina Fel Sniping implies breaking 100km range. A Brutix will indeed outperform a Ferox in just about every conceivable setup (maybe apart from missile fittign ability ), and will make a devastating midrange fighter with rails, but a sniper it is not. I thought about it - and you have a point. Sure a Brutix with 7 guns and a damage bonus sounds better than the Ferox with 5 non damage bonused guns - however I did not think about the advantages of range and ammo. Max optimal range of a Brutix is in the neighborhood of 80-90 km with spike - go another 20-30 km and it DPS drops to 0. The Ferox on the other hand hits out to about 130 km + 20-30 falloff - so you get 40 extra km in distance. That's significant advantage even if your damage output is low and with fewer guns. I made comparisons with both ships setup to snipe AND tank (3x tracking computers each, and a medium armor/shield rep with cap injector). Interestingly enough - from 100km to 40 km the damage output from both ships is comparable (fluctutaing abit, the Ferox having the advantage of firing harder hitting ammo at equal ranges of the Brutix - ie using lead while the brutix has to use tungsten). At 40 km the Ferox with standard missile launchers (grid issue here) and antimatter does as much damage as a Brutix with Uranium ammo. Drones become an issue as the Brutix can use 5 hammerheads while the Ferox is using 5 hobgoblins. Within 40 km, as the Brutix can switch to Antimatter, the tide turns and the Brutix comes out on top. They're actually surprisingly balanced as snipers. Compare the following similarly tanked sniper BC. Ferox: Lows: Damage Control II 3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer Mids: 3 x Tracking Computer II Medium Shield Booster II Medium Cap Injector with 400 cap charges Highs: 5 x 250mm Railgun II 2 x Standard Missile Launcher II Drones: 5 x Hobgoblin II *VS* Brutix: Lows: Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Medium Armor Repairer II Damage Control II 2 x Reactor Control II Mids: 3x tracking Computer II Medium Cap Injector with 400's Highs: 7 x 250 mm Railgun II Drones: 5 x Hobgoblin II __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Kakasheri	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Ancy Denaries Even though I love the Ferox I have to say go with the Brutix. The Ferox is, and remains, a piece of flying crap :( Craplover!
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:42:00 - [23] The ferox is terrible. You should never find yourself on the bridge of a ferox. People apparently realize that it is terrible as a hybrid platform (Use the Brutix!) but then say that it's not so bad when fitted with missiles. What they fail to realize is that a missile Drake will outpeform a Ferox in every way. Ferox does have a great model though. A gorgeous model, even. Too bad the ship is utter crap. Basically a good rule of thumb is, the only t1 caldari ship worth using for rails is the Rokh. By and large they are crippled by too few turret slots and split weapons systems.
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:11:00 - [24] Originally by: Ishina Fel Sniping implies breaking 100km range. 3 range mod brutix w/ 250s + spike hits to 91+15. As good as 100km. However, it also deals several times the dps of the ferox.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:36:00 - [25] Originally by: Ivor Gunn Originally by: Ishina Fel Sniping implies breaking 100km range. 3 range mod brutix w/ 250s + spike hits to 91+15. As good as 100km. However, it also deals several times the dps of the ferox. Did you try the setups I mentioned above? Its really not that bad. A brutix to fit a tank and get range with 250 rails will have to use fitting mods - fittings mods that use up damage mod space. The Ferox can use more mag stabs and closes the gap nicely at 91km. Also 91+15 does NOT equal 100km - at 100 km you're going to be missing roughly 20% - or 20% less DPS. You can snipe with a Ferox up to 140 km - you can not do that with a Brutix. Infact you wont see a significant edge for the Brutix until you get within 40km. The caveat is you are using tech 2 gear. A Ferox is far more unforgiving of a tech 1 rail user than a Brutix is - simply because of the edge of spike ammo. Spike allows the Ferox to outrange by 40 km. The Brutix to hit 91 km is using spike - the Ferox can use Iridium ammo. Yes the Brutix is out damaging the Ferox for a bit here (50 dps), but that number will change as the ranges change (try 91km-40km in 10 km increments - you will be surprised). Remember your drones won't be in the equation at 91km (neither are teh Ferox's missiles or drones). A T1 fit Ferox is a terrible ship (might be the worst in game) - because you are limited to tech 1 ammo. Spend time and some isk with tech 2 guns and the Ferox starts to shine. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Omarvelous A brutix to fit a tank and get range with 250 rails will have to use fitting mods - fittings mods that use up damage mod space. The Ferox can use more mag stabs and closes the gap nicely at 91km. PG implant or PG rig allows for easy fit of the brutix. The ferox lacks the slots to tank and snipe, just as the brutix does. Due to its resist bonus though , this is the only area it is superior to the brutix as an anti-support ship. Quote: Also 91+15 does NOT equal 100km - at 100 km you're going to be missing roughly 20% - or 20% less DPS. And you'll still be doing more than the ferox at 100km. There's a full 90dps difference, even when the ferox is utilising CN iridium. Quote: You can snipe with a Ferox up to 140 km - you can not do that with a Brutix. Infact you wont see a significant edge for the Brutix until you get within 40km. Correct, you can snipe to 140km, but you'll be doing 134dps and 499 volley. So the question should really be do you want to snipe from 140km? Also, bear in mind the ferox, to lock and shoot to 140km cannot fit a real fit. You'll be using all your mids and lows for SBs and range/tracking mods. No room for an MWD. As for the significant difference... Under 60km, the ferox is useless. Too heavy and slow, and the drone DPS + ACTUAL damage bonus (rather than virtual damage bonus in the form of range bonus) from the brutix means the brutix massively outclasses it. Even past 60km, there is no way a brutix with a comparable fit will be outdamaged by the ferox until you're way beyond 120km. The ferox just does so little damage.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:52:00 - [27] Originally by: Omarvelous Brutix vs Ferox Yep. I ran the numbers as well with similar setups and tanks (almost no tank, both 3x mag stabs), i dont remember the exact range but it is somewhere between 40 and 60km that the Brutix stops outdamaging the Ferox, especially that the drones range stops around there. After that sweet spot the Ferox does better and also can reach farther.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.29 21:22:00 - [28] Edited by: Omarvelous on 29/01/2008 21:25:31 Edited by: Omarvelous on 29/01/2008 21:22:56 Originally by: Ivor Gunn Originally by: Omarvelous A brutix to fit a tank and get range with 250 rails will have to use fitting mods - fittings mods that use up damage mod space. The Ferox can use more mag stabs and closes the gap nicely at 91km. PG implant or PG rig allows for easy fit of the brutix. The ferox lacks the slots to tank and snipe, just as the brutix does. Due to its resist bonus though , this is the only area it is superior to the brutix as an anti-support ship. Quote: Also 91+15 does NOT equal 100km - at 100 km you're going to be missing roughly 20% - or 20% less DPS. And you'll still be doing more than the ferox at 100km. There's a full 90dps difference, even when the ferox is utilising CN iridium. Quote: You can snipe with a Ferox up to 140 km - you can not do that with a Brutix. Infact you wont see a significant edge for the Brutix until you get within 40km. Correct, you can snipe to 140km, but you'll be doing 134dps and 499 volley. So the question should really be do you want to snipe from 140km? Also, bear in mind the ferox, to lock and shoot to 140km cannot fit a real fit. You'll be using all your mids and lows for SBs and range/tracking mods. No room for an MWD. As for the significant difference... Under 60km, the ferox is useless. Too heavy and slow, and the drone DPS + ACTUAL damage bonus (rather than virtual damage bonus in the form of range bonus) from the brutix means the brutix massively outclasses it. Even past 60km, there is no way a brutix with a comparable fit will be outdamaged by the ferox until you're way beyond 120km. The ferox just does so little damage. If you're going to use a PG implant on your Brutix - do the same for the Ferox and fit a larger shield booster. I agree at 91km-100km the Brutix with Spike does more than the Ferox with Iridium. Drop the ranges to 40km in 10 km incerments (start switching to higher damage ammo). Keep both ships firing at equal ranges - realizing the range bonus allows the Ferox 1-2 steps better damaging ammo than the brutix. Its pretty close. 140km yes you will need remote sensor boosting - or throw away your tank (not much of one in my setup anyways) and use your own sensor boosters to lock that far. 134 dps is still 134 dps - sure big ships can ignore it, but interceptors trying to close on you or ECM ships can't. Believe me - I'm not a big fan of the Ferox - but its actually not as terrible in its role as a sniper with tech 2 weapons. Would I love more turrets and less missile slots on this ship? Hell yes. That would boost this ship's damage in the 100km to 40km range significantly. Even still with 5 turrets with better ammo it can compete at medium/far ranges. When the Brutix can finally switch to antimatter (under 30km), and use its larger drones is where it will completely dominate the Ferox. This is where a lot of small scale pvp occurs, hence people's dissapointment in the Ferox. Also the Ferox is usually a Cadari pilot's first BC before they get a Drake. Their skills are usually limited, the Ferox is a far more skill intensive ship to fly as a sniper than a heavy missile spamming passive Drake. Hence the great disappointment in its damage output with tech 1 guns and tech 1 ammo (whereas the Brutix with tech 1 gear is still respectable). __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.29 21:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Zal'arok Edited by: Zal''arok on 29/01/2008 03:19:29 I've been using cruisers for some time now and am closing in on being skilled for a bc. What I'm wondering is what is a better hybrid ship: ferox, myrmidon, or a brutix? Brutix owns for a heavy hybrid gunnery pilot. Its a great ship. Myrm is more a drone ship. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2008.01.29 22:13:00 - [30] Edited by: Ivor Gunn on 29/01/2008 22:14:37 Originally by: Omarvelous If you're going to use a PG implant on your Brutix - do the same for the Ferox and fit a larger shield booster. Shield booster? You need 2x SB 2, 2x TC 2 and 1x MWD. There's no mids left. Quote: Drop the ranges to 40km in 10 km incerments (start switching to higher damage ammo)... 2 damage mods, 3 range mods, all level 5, 250mm rails. At no point under 90km does the ferox outdamage the brutix. Beyond that range, damage is too low and locking times too high to be of any practical use.
Barashi Nugan Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.01.29 22:23:00 - [31] Edited by: Barashi Nugan on 29/01/2008 22:31:00 Edited by: Barashi Nugan on 29/01/2008 22:30:24 Originally by: Zal'arok Edited by: Zal''arok on 29/01/2008 03:19:29 I've been using cruisers for some time now and am closing in on being skilled for a bc. What I'm wondering is what is a better hybrid ship: ferox, myrmidon, or a brutix? Since everyone here has mostly given their opinions based on rail setups, I figured I'd toss my .02 isk in with blasters. I prefer the Brutix for getting up close and personal with the antimatter. Infact, I'm currently flying a pretty oddball setup compared to most others I've seen posted, and it's been working well so far. It's certainly not without faults or limitations, but for the "drop in the face of your enemy and splatter them" tactic, it works well. I've decided to go with a very heavy buffer armor tank and small T2 neutron blasters. Yes, I'm forgoing both of the Brutix's ship bonuses, but like I said, it seems to work. Of course, go T2 when you can use it: Highs: 7 T2 small neutron blasters w/ void or faction AM. Mids: MWD/24k-Scram/Web/Medium Cap Booster* Lows: DCU/EANM/Magstab/1600mm RT plates x2 Rigs: Trimark x3 Drones: 5 Valkyrie II's/Hammerhead II's/Medium ECM Drones** I often switch this out for another mod depending on what I think I'll be facing. ECM, ECCM, 2nd web, TD, etc. This setup of course has zero issues with cap, so I mainly use the injector as a measure of protection against nos/neut setups. I usually use the Valk's so I have some nice explosive damage, and since i often lose drones it's slightly cheaper on the wallet too. I usually don't carry medium ECM drones anymore, as I seem to have horrible luck with them and never break a lock. This setup suffers from very poor agility and speed, so smart speed-setups will simply pick you apart (but then what don't they pick apart besides other nano's, lol). It's got a massive amount of armor to chew through for a BC (I think around 25,000 if I remember correctly), plus of course the nice bit of structure with 60% resists across the board to hull. I think* my resists are around 80/55/55/45, with EM being 80 and Explosive being 45. DPS is around 350-370 with my skills, including drones. Again, this is all off memory as I'm at work and don't have access to EFT. You might try swapping the magstab with another EANM, but I'm already irk'ed that I'm using small blasters on a BC, even if it does seem to do well. Note: I went with the small T2 blasters for 2 reasons - 1. I can't yet use T2 medium blasters 2. Even with fitting named medium Electrons, you sacrifice a very large chunk of your tank for only slightly better dps. I figure surviving for 2 minutes and dealing 350dps is better than surviving for 1 minute and dealing 450dps (not exact numbers of course). Anyways, that's my overly-long .02 isk. Feel free to tear it to pieces. EDIT: Spelling and clarification.
Corphus The NewOrder	Posted - 2008.01.30 00:22:00 - [32] Originally by: Xsag ferox = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap ferox fitted with launchers = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap ferox fitted with rails = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap i hope my feelings on the ferox are clear :) i only fly caldari currently and its a waste of 20m since u hate ur ferox so much. can i have ur ferox ?
Xsag Caldari SPECTRE Ops Cult of War	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:43:00 - [33] Originally by: Corphus Originally by: Xsag ferox = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap ferox fitted with launchers = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap ferox fitted with rails = craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap i hope my feelings on the ferox are clear :) i only fly caldari currently and its a waste of 20m since u hate ur ferox so much. can i have ur ferox ? haha do u seriously think i own one? i own 2 drakes (1 setup for ridiculous shield recharge times (currently 99sec with 12.5k), 1 setup for missile damage ) why would i want a ferox??? If i wanted something to stick hybrids on id get an eagle or rokh :) ~n00b of all trades~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~ ~Now with a face!~
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:55:00 - [34] Edited by: Omarvelous on 30/01/2008 14:59:43 Ivor - lets take a sniper Ferox vs a sniper Brutix, 3% hybrid damage implants, no rigs - but maxxed out skills for comparison. Both ships will be used for rails, 3 range mods, a sensor booster and 1 rep tank. Ferox: Lows: Damage Control II 3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Mids: 3x Tracking Computers II with range scripts Sensor Booster II with Range Script II Medium Shield Booster II Highs: 5x 250 Railgun II 2x Assault Missile Launcher II Drones: 5x Hobgoblin II Max targeting Range 120km, Max Firing Range 137km + 15 falloff. Essentially you can start firing at 120 km. 33k effective hitpoints. ______________________________________________________________ Rail Brutix: Lows: Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Medium Armor Repairer II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Reactor Control II (7 rails and MAR require fitting mods) Mids: 3x Tracking Computer II with range scripts Sensor Booster II with range scripts Highs: 7x 250 Railgun II Drones: 5x Hammerhead II Max targeting range = 110 km, max firing range 91km + 15 km falloff. Essentially you can start firing at 110km with practically 0 DPS, 106km is 50% DPS, 91km is 100% max range DPS. Effective hitpoints also is 33k. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:56:00 - [35] reserved __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Jennae Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:06:00 - [36] Ivor Gunn: Does that graph take into account the ammo difference? The Ferox should be able to use better suited (ie more damaging) ammo out to a farther range that should close that gap. Maybe not significantly, but closer.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Omarvelous Ferox vs Brutix comparison IMO for that kind of comparison, the Brutix lows should have looked like 3x MFS 1X SAR II 1x PDS II
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Omarvelous Ferox vs Brutix comparison IMO for that kind of comparison, the Brutix lows should have looked like 3x MFS 1X SAR II 1x PDS II Unequal tank. If you gimp the Brutix's tank with a small armor rep (probably better off with a buffer or resist vs a small rep on a battlecruiser). Then throw away the Ferox's tank and fit a tracking disruptor that would ruin the rail Brutix's day (range script forcing the Brutix to use long range ammo the whole way in). __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
TimMc Gallente Vidar Fierd Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Ishina Fel Originally by: TimMc Best PvP Sniper: Ferox ...where "best" != "good", but rather "best" = "quite bad but the only option" lol ok, let me specify I ment best out of the hybrid battlecruisers.
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:26:00 - [40] Originally by: Jennae Ivor Gunn: Does that graph take into account the ammo difference? The Ferox should be able to use better suited (ie more damaging) ammo out to a farther range that should close that gap. Maybe not significantly, but closer. Yes. That's why the graph is bumpy. Each drop/level is an ammo switch. @ Omarvelous. Aside from the fact neither of those fits are viable (no mwd on either), they're not comparable. Of course one is going to do more DPS when it has 3 damage mods compared to the latter's 1. You might want to learn the definition of "tank" in a sniper, too. (Hint: It doesnt involve reps)
Jennae Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:54:00 - [41] Nevermind my post then :) thanks!
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:03:00 - [42] Originally by: Ivor Gunn Originally by: Jennae Ivor Gunn: Does that graph take into account the ammo difference? The Ferox should be able to use better suited (ie more damaging) ammo out to a farther range that should close that gap. Maybe not significantly, but closer. Yes. That's why the graph is bumpy. Each drop/level is an ammo switch. @ Omarvelous. Aside from the fact neither of those fits are viable (no mwd on either), they're not comparable. Of course one is going to do more DPS when it has 3 damage mods compared to the latter's 1. You might want to learn the definition of "tank" in a sniper, too. (Hint: It doesnt involve reps) Condescending attitude aside - fit a plate/extender - you will need fitting mods to use 7 250 rail II's on a Brutix - otherwise ofcourse I would have added more magnetic field stabilizers. Or ignore the tank and focus on range and damage - the Ferox could use that shield boost slot for a tracking disruptor - the Brutix could not without giving up more range. Where are the missiles on the graph? The Ferox does not linearly scale its damage - no missiles or drones at long range - the Brutix will stick to spike until it can switch to Thorium. Take an objective look at what I'm saying. I'm not saying the Ferox is better - I'm saying its not complete crap compared to the Brutix - there are ranges where it is superior. MWD - on a sniper BC? Meh, I'd keep that mid slot for sniping and letting my ammo dictate cmobat range - if the target hasnt popped by the time it gets close to you - going 1000 m/s with a terrible acceleration wont get you anywhere. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:24:00 - [43] Edited by: Ivor Gunn on 30/01/2008 17:25:48 Originally by: Omarvelous Condescending attitude aside - fit a plate/extender - you will need fitting mods to use 7 250 rail II's on a Brutix - otherwise ofcourse I would have added more magnetic field stabilizers. No, you won't need a fitting mod. This isn't RMR, we have rigs and implants that help with fitting now. Quote: ..the Ferox could use that shield boost slot for a tracking disruptor.. No it couldn't. To snipe effectively it needs 3 MFS2. That leaves 1 low for a TE2. That means for maximum use of your range bonus, you need 2 mids for TC2s. You then need an MWD. The remaining 2 slots just about have to be sensor boosters, otherwise you can't lock far enough to use all the range you have. That, and TDs suck horse*** at the best of times. Sticking one on a ferox is lunacy. Quote: Where are the missiles on the graph? The same place as the brutix's 158 DPS from its hammerhead 2s. They've been discounted to make it a fair comparison of gunboats. The ferox's missiles and drones amount to a similar amount of dps as the HH2s do, anyway, so its moot. Quote: there are ranges where it is superior. Yes, beyond 100km. Unfortunately, using spike on a ferox is equivalent to leaning over and tickling the enemy support with a feather duster. Your damage and tracking are pathetic. Quote:** MWD - on a sniper BC? MWD is mandatory on ALL pvp fits, especially fleet fits (which this is).
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:22:00 - [44] Well if you have to use MWD (I'm assuming to deal with bubbles - I'm thinking of more of a low sec fight), and you're fitting purely sniper and no tank, then the Ferox will not compete with the Brutix. How the sniper ship can tank enough to escape the bubble while slowly accelerating to 1000 m/s is beyond me. I'm not going to argue about 0.0 bubble tactics because my experience in that is minimal. I do most of my fighting in low sec. I don't think speed is king for a tankless sniper when most other ships in the fight can still go faster than you. Its true you have to use 2 sensor boosters to reach the 140 km spike range with the Ferox doing 167 dps. Sure that's worthless dps on large ships, but against support or interceptors it cannot be ignored. Why is it lunacy to drop your range from 147 to 120 with 1 sensor booster and then fit a tracking disruptor II with a range script in the last mid slot? You would kill the Brutix's range to the point that it would have to use spike ammo a lot more often, while the Ferox could use antimatter and missiles - albeit not for long once it gets to within 30km the Brutix would take over. I'll take your requirements for a MWD and range into consideration and come up with another comparison. I'm not trying to say the Ferox is better - it really needs some attention from CCP - if they made it in line with the Rokh (all guns range and tank bonus) it would be an awesome ship. You've got me thinking though. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:50:00 - [45] Edited by: Ulstan on 30/01/2008 18:50:27 Quote: Or ignore the tank and focus on range and damage - the Ferox could use that shield boost slot for a tracking disruptor - the Brutix could not without giving up more range Ok, look, we shouldn't be concered about their tank. Snipers don't care about tank, they max range, damage, tracking, and locking. It's rather odd to talk about putting a tracking disruptor on the Ferox. TD's being crap aside, this isn't a 1v1 duel. If it was, the fight would be at 20km and the Brutix would massacre the Ferox. The point of BC snipers is to shoot down support, for which tracking disruptors are rather pointless, as the support isn't shooting back at you. You really need to look at the Brutix with 3 MFS to compare it to a Ferox with 3 MFS. Having this tiny little 20km window where both ships do absolutely crap damage, but the Ferox's damage is slightly less crap, is quite unimpressive. You are going to be shooting at fairly fast moving tacklers/support/etc. They'll be in that window for how long? Move away from comparing some sort of stylized joust where both ships start 200km out and slowboat their way towards each other until they crash. Instead look at the role of medium gun snipers in engagements and the fit each ship would likely employ. Quote: Do I think the Ferox needs a little bit of a tweak? Sure. The Ferox needs a lot of a tweak. It's truly abjectly horrid. It may be rivalled only by some of the worst ships in the Amarr cruiser line. Moa needs help too, but at least it's not as laugh out loud bad compared to its alternatives.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:55:00 - [46] OK going for the 10MN MWD max range and damage combo: Brutix: Lows: 3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer Reactor Control II Power Diagnostic II * If you use an implant or a rig to remove a fitting mod - thats fine, a fourth mag stab II wont add much damage - or you could add some kind of a 1 slot tank. That same ammount of isk could be spent on the ferox for a better tank to tank your extra damage, or shoot farther or harder, etc. Really hard to compare here so Ive left them out for argument's sake. Mids: 10 MN MWD II 2x Tracking Computer II 1x Sensor Booster II * As said above - use an implant or rig and fit a tracking enhancer in low slot, can be done, otherwise your effective max range is 85km. Make sure to give the Ferox pilot the same isk in rig or implant as well... Highs: 7x 250mm Rail II _________________________________ Ferox: Lows: 3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II reactor Control Unit II Mids: 10MN MWD II 2x Tracking Computer II Sensor Booster II *** Tracking Disruptor II - if you hate this idea use an invulnerability - this mod forces the Brutix to fire Spike instead of lead or better T1 much longer. Highs: 5x 250mm Rail II 2x Heavy Missile Launcher II <--Won't come into play until 85km, sure the target may warp off/be dead/too fast, so treat this here as you wish. Tracking Disruptor would drop the Brutix's range to 50km max, well within the Ferox's heavy Missile Range. Beyond 70km the Brutix would be doing just about 0 dps. Brutix disrupted to 50km with spike is 290 dps, Ferox with Uranium and Heavy missiles is 290 dps... Meh - It's impossible to account for every contingency when comparing 2 ships. I'm pretty much done with the argument. I was trying to make a point the Ferox isn't as terrible as a sniper as most people would suggest - especially if you use tech 2 weapons. The Ferox doesnt do much damage, but it can hit far away. If the opposing fleet has an ECM boat, interceptor 100+km away, The Ferox would be the better ship for the job vs a Brutix. If you have to have a MWD - you really narrow the options for sniping for a Brutix with 3 remaining mid slots. The Ferox pilot could with the spare 4th slot, use EWAR to gain a tactical advantage for your fleet vs enemy snipers. In the end - you could train for 6 weeks and just fly an eagle and snipe with medium hybrids at far superior ranges. The Ferox needs some work to excel - for now it does its job semi-decently. Saying its utter crap helps keep the price of them down. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.01.30 19:11:00 - [47] Originally by: Ivor Gunn MWD is mandatory on ALL pvp fits, especially fleet fits (which this is). No. Just a matter of preference / tactics.
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2008.01.30 23:58:00 - [48] Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Ivor Gunn MWD is mandatory on ALL pvp fits, especially fleet fits (which this is). No. Just a matter of preference / tactics. No, it isn't. If you're going to pvp and plan on moving even a single jump, you need an MWD. It allows you to dictate range, clear bubbles and pull off cloak/mwd aligns (not that i'm advocating a cloak on a gang fit).

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