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New exploit to avoid war for 8mil ISK, legal or not? Discuss!

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Nexa Necis The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:48:00 - [1] Ok here's the scenario. We dec a corp called CarebearJoe's Mining run by CarebearJoe1. Since they no likey war, they have a 1 day old alt called CarebearJoesAlt1 join it, make the alt CEO, and proceed to jump ship to a new corp. They call the new corp CarebearJoe's Mining 2. We dec that corp as well. So at this point we're out 10mil in war fees to dec both corp due to having other wars on, and they are out 4mil in costs to create 2 corps. So being the wily carebears that they are, once the war goes out they get another 1 day old alt named CarebearJoesAlt2 to join, make them CEO, and then proceed to jump ship to a new corp with the actual active players. They call the new corp CarebearJoe's Mining 3, and repeat the process of putting a 1 day old alt in place. So now at this point, to dec all 3 corps, it costs 12mil a week and they are out 6mil in corp startup fees. We dec all 3 corps. Guess what they do. They create CarebearJoe's Mining Corp 4, bring in a day old alt and make it CEO. Now they can jump from corp to corp, with no penalties incurred. They have spent 8mil and will incur no additional fees to jump ship. They don't need to give themselves roles since they control the alts. Since my corp is limited to 3 outgoing war dec's, we can never cover all of their alt corps. So they get free war avoidance. Which I think is quite similar to the alliance exploit that Imune started up a while back. IIRC the GM's subsequently labeled that an exploit to avoid war. Why would this be any different? I mean, with this way, after the 4th corp is created, the players have no consequences to jumping ship. They're out 8mil and can do whatever they like. Prior, I have checked with GM's to make sure it's legal that we can dec each corp they jump to. The GM's have stated yes it's legal, it is not considered harassment. They stated that if the player is creating a new corp, it costs them ISK and so they are incurring a consequence to making/moving to that new corp. Using this tactic, once they have the 4 corps in place, they have basic immunity to war decs. Someone asked me why wouldn't they just stay in an NPC corp, wouldn't that be a whole lot easier? Sure it would be easier, but, with having your own corp, you can have friends jump in and out who can help fight and then immediately leave corp whenever they please. So in effect, they get their cake and get to eat it too. I wouldn't mind so much if they were jumping into already established corps or jumping into a fresh corp that they created, but jumping back and forth into the same 4 corps within minutes of the war dec email going out seems a bit iffy to me. Personally I think it's using a game mechanic to avoid non-consensual encounters which seems very similar to the Imune situation. In some preliminary petitions the GM seems to agree this could be an issue and said they would look into it. I don't think it's a cookie cutter response, they mentioned some other things in the response as well which was very specific to my initial email to them. BTW, thanks for the quick response to that petition, that was a new record time. :) What do you guys think? Exploit or completely legal?
Riho Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:52:00 - [2] imo this IS a exploit. if the corp reforms under a new name to avoid wars. they done ti 4 times... and as far as i know its a exploit... you should ask the GMs AGAIN tbh ---------------------------------- This is Me
Mo Steel Caldari Sanguis vix Dignatio	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:05:00 - [3] Exploit IMO, and easy to spot if you look at someone's corp history. I'd laugh at them if I ever saw that in corp history. ----- Want a sig made? Eve-Mail me, signatures made for 5 million isk each.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:19:00 - [4] /agree I feel this is an exploit also. If CCP stands by this as being legal, then they should not have put the boot down on alliance hopping. Both actions achieved the same goal, just in different fashions. Keeping the rulings consistant = less confusion on the matter. Again, I do not endorse any means of avoiding a war, that is one of the risks you take when joining or starting a corporation. If you didn't want to face the prospect of having war declared against you, you should have stayed in a NPC Corp. *** "Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told, I'm a child of the moon and a Goddess among men." Free pint of blood for the Dev who agrees
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:24:00 - [5] Exploit
Yonneh Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:30:00 - [6] I hate humanity. Hi Nexa
Aslovi Caldari Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:49:00 - [7] Mate I know you'll make them pay in the end you always do, how baout playing them at there own game. Create TRAPS 1 thru 4, noone have roles and then jump from TRAPS corp to TRAPS corp as they move around. this way you'll have plenty of dec slots you can keep all the little buggers dec'd with. In fact mate I'll fund it if you want IMAGE REMOVED!!!! :(
DarknessInc Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:03:00 - [8] name and shame??? Originally by: Viator Pilot Now I will go back to agents, already without the desire of adventures on the ass :)
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:06:00 - [9] Originally by: DarknessInc name and shame??? Wallet > Than E-Honor it would accomplish nothing
Nexa Necis The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:12:00 - [10] Aslovi, Money is never an issue with me. :) Thanks for the offer though. A temporary solution is already in the works. Like you said, get an alt to dec them. I will have 3 alts in their own corps and decs ready to go out. Lucky for me, all my alts are pvp capable. I know not everyone has that option though. The GM said to re-petition if they continue jumping from each corp. Obviously they can see that the CEO is a 1 day old character and the actual players are jumping corp within a few hours of the war mail going out. I was thinking of another solution, that might be fun as well. I was thinking of starting an alt/pvp training corp. One that people can join and have 3 constant, random war targets that are splinter corps from other corps they dec'd. We would all fight together and have a bunch of fun griefing the carebear alt splinter corps. Dark, They haven't got through all of this yet, but that's what I expect to happen. So I decided to check on the legality of it, so if/when it gets to that point, I will have some ground to stand on when the petition is filed. They've gone through 3 corps so far, the dec goes in tonight on the 3rd corp, I expect them to make a new one, then I will dec the 4th corp and see what happens.
Redbad Minmatar Tempered Steel Legion	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:14:00 - [11] I allready thought that the GM's ruled this sort of ill practices as an exploit. If they did not, they should. RB
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:15:00 - [12] New (tm) Why are you asking us? Do we look like GMs to you? -- Death of an insidious dictator Birth of a new one
Sphit Kar	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:21:00 - [13] Edited by: Sphit Kar on 30/01/2008 17:23:52 oh my god. look at that. They obviously don't want to play your warmongering gimmick. Why do you insist so much? What is so damn important about them? If they have to stick to NPC corps then you'll be jack****** anyway. Nothing you can do about that. They don't want to play your games; go find a corp who does. Now go ahead, you can kick my ass, explain to me why you insist on them so much?
Redbad Minmatar Tempered Steel Legion	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:22:00 - [14] ^^^^ you gotta love this. RB
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:24:00 - [15] Originally by: Sphit Kar oh my god. look at that. They obviously don't want to play your warmongering gimmick. Why do you insist so much? What is so damn important about them? If they have to stick to NPC corps then you'll be jack****** anyway. Nothing you can do about that. They don't want to play your games; go find a corp who does. Now go ahead, you can kick my ass, explain to me way you insist on them so much? How does I pvp without consent?
brocksamson316	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:24:00 - [16] LOL i think this is a great idea, they obviously do not want to fight so you have got egg on your face, why not leave them alone they obviously do not want to fight, so why not dec a proper pvp corp who are actually interested in combat. Good on them for outsmarting you.
Nexa Necis The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:33:00 - [17] Gaven, Pay attention. They don't play on the 1 day old alt. It's a non-active alt in place to hold the corp in place so they can run back to it without having to spend the 2mil ISK on the startup fee. So no, we have no chance of fighting the actual characters who are playing the game, only the placeholder alts who never log in. Meanwhile it cost us to dec those corps, but it costs them nothing to ping pong back and forth. So they have 0 risk. If you don't want war, then stay in an NPC corp. Don't use a game mechanic to avoid a war. TRAPS doesn't run to other corps to avoid incoming war decs. So there is no jealousy, no hate or any ill will regarding the tactic. The reason I ask about it here, is because there are tons of people who might've run into similar experiences and I like to get feedback. As I said, if they just kept making a new corp that's fine. But for them to be able to avoid any wars for 8mil ISK, is akin to the Imune alliance's revolving door of war dec washing. Obviously that last post is a former/current target of ours.
Nexa Necis The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:45:00 - [18] Originally by: brocksamson316 LOL i think this is a great idea, they obviously do not want to fight so you have got egg on your face, why not leave them alone they obviously do not want to fight, so why not dec a proper pvp corp who are actually interested in combat. Good on them for outsmarting you. Egg on face? We're not the one exploiting in game mechanics to avoid consequences of our actions. This is the typical response from anyone, not just carebear/industry people that I get daily. They say, "If you wan't PVP go to low sec or 0.0 where the real fighting is. I just want to mine ore and mission!". My response has been, "Why don't you go to low sec or 0.0 to mine or mission? You like low quality ore. We like low quality PVP so we will stay in high sec and play our way just like you do." We accept the consequences of our actions. Whether it's merc corps hired against us, or corps friendly to our targets dec'ing us, or them jumping 20 systems out or whatever. We don't cheat. Who says they deserve to be left alone? Why do you assume they did nothing to deserve being hunted down? I love the flamers who assume they know it all. Keep the flames coming.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Nexa Necis Gaven, Pay attention. Yeah I did. I totally get it. And I definitely considered doing it myself when I was a one man band for those times when I wardec something I wish I hadn't. But they have to exist in at least one player corp at any given time, and you can create as many inactive alt held corps as anybody else. Unless of course they go NPC, which, if you are going to corp hop to avoid war, you might as well do, and why they do what they are doing now is quite mental, and I have seen some guy in Anttiri do it to me many months ago, I gave up after one iteration, that was his plan, but NPC hop would have worked equally well. The reason you ask about it here is because you want perceived pressure on CCP to deem it an exploit. It worked with the iMune, Privateer and many other issues, why not this one? As for iMune, I don't fully agree with that exploit status, purely on rationale:- It's ok for individuals to hop to avoid war. It's NOT ok for corporations to hop to avoid war. That is bonkers. Either it's all exploit, or it's not. Simple rules for simple people. Whether they deem this an exploit I should think is irrelevant. Since whether they do or not will still afford your enemy easy opportunity to avoid war. Nonconsentual PvP always was a myth, yet some folk still hold onto to it like it was ever gospel in the first place. I can see why people are driven to use anonymous alts to gain trust and pod people. But that doesn't make it uber. -- Death of an insidious dictator Birth of a new one
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:04:00 - [20] OP...this is already a known exploit...file a petition and watch them all become members of NPC corps shortly _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Nexa Necis The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Gaven Blands Yeah I did. I totally get it. And I definitely considered doing it myself when I was a one man band for those times when I wardec something I wish I hadn't. But they have to exist in at least one player corp at any given time, and you can create as many inactive alt held corps as anybody else. Yes you can, but the point is, they stop making corps at the 4th corp. They no longer have any consequences. Not like paying a 2mil fee is a consequence, but I am sure CCP has a 2mil charge in there to deter certain things, who knows what though. Originally by: Gaven Blands Unless of course they go NPC, which, if you are going to corp hop to avoid war, you might as well do, and why they do what they are doing now is quite mental, and I have seen some guy in Anttiri do it to me many months ago, I gave up after one iteration, that was his plan, but NPC hop would have worked equally well. Agreed here. If you want no war, than NPC is the obvious solution. Creating 4 corps with 4 alt placeholders and jumping from corp to corp is not normal, makes no sense other than to be able to avoid war while costing the other party ISK to dec them. Originally by: Gaven Blands The reason you ask about it here is because you want perceived pressure on CCP to deem it an exploit. It worked with the iMune, Privateer and many other issues, why not this one? No, there is no need for pressure to CCP to do anything. If they say it's legal, then I live with it. I don't think the Imune thing would've even surfaced for ages if they didn't advertise it. Same with Privateers, if they kept it to like 20 war decs instead of 100+ or whatever it was, they would've likely been below the radar. I have never seen a post about a tactic like this. There is no huge outcry regarding this, and I don't ever expect there will be since it's really kind of hitting bottom. The post was made here because this is the appropriate forum and this is the forum where this type of tactic would most likely be encountered. Originally by: Gaven Blands As for iMune, I don't fully agree with that exploit status, purely on rationale:- It's ok for individuals to hop to avoid war. It's NOT ok for corporations to hop to avoid war. That is bonkers. Either it's all exploit, or it's not. Simple rules for simple people. So why is it ok for 1 person but not 50? I don't get it. Some corps are small. Some are 1 or 3 man operations. If all of them jump to avoid war, it is no different than using the Imune way. You jump and leave the war behind. Originally by: Gaven Blands Whether they deem this an exploit I should think is irrelevant. Since whether they do or not will still afford your enemy easy opportunity to avoid war. Nonconsentual PvP always was a myth, yet some folk still hold onto to it like it was ever gospel in the first place. Funny, I am sure if corps used exploits to kill people or war dec them, people would be outraged. Odd how escaping war using exploits is totally fine. Originally by: Gaven Blands I can see why people are driven to use anonymous alts to gain trust and pod people. But that doesn't make it uber. I am not sure what your beef is with TRAPS and alts. Are you refering to the freighter pop my guy did using his alt? If so we've only done that once, but you seem to imply that it's the end all be all that we do here. Funny how it's ok for others to use alts to escape consquences but it's not ok for us to use alts to make sure consequences are delivered. You can't have it both ways as you say.
Zhang Ramses Chaos From Order	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:32:00 - [22] PLEASE tell me this is coming from the Mofa constellation folks. Oh man, that would make this sooo delicious. Zhang Ramses
Nexa Necis The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Zhang Ramses PLEASE tell me this is coming from the Mofa constellation folks. Oh man, that would make this sooo delicious. Zhang Ramses We have a winnah!!!!
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.30 19:42:00 - [24] Well Nexa, I do believe the corp hopping is lame and should be petitionable. I also think that no one in game whatsoever should have an alt, or more than one game account (or more than one character) *no reflection on you though Imagine this scenario, if you will. Let's say 30 people are in a corp - their mains are all in one corp, and their two alts are each in two other corps, all with the same people in them. You wardec the first corp. So, they dock, and play using their alts. Now you can't even find them... Is that an abuse of mechanics? I think it is. ------------------ Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire.
Zhang Ramses Chaos From Order	Posted - 2008.01.30 19:49:00 - [25] Sad, but not unexpected, when you consider who their friends in Faswiba are. Zhang
Mr Twinkie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.30 20:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Sphit Kar Edited by: Sphit Kar on 30/01/2008 17:23:52 oh my god. look at that. They obviously don't want to play your warmongering gimmick. Why do you insist so much? What is so damn important about them? If they have to stick to NPC corps then you'll be jack**** anyway. Nothing you can do about that. They don't want to play your games; go find a corp who does. Now go ahead, you can kick my ass, explain to me why you insist on them so much? Originally by:** brocksamson316 LOL i think this is a great idea, they obviously do not want to fight so you have got egg on your face, why not leave them alone they obviously do not want to fight, so why not dec a proper pvp corp who are actually interested in combat. Good on them for outsmarting you. Why do u post on alts? and why do u sound like a macro miner ----------------- The Bastards.. Come Visit
Willie Garvin	Posted - 2008.01.30 23:16:00 - [27] I dont think this is gonna be a real problem for mercs. Having a 100+ members corpjumping is a pain in the ass. Not very practical This tactic is only useful for mini corps.
Wind Ictiva Delta Kappa Gamma	Posted - 2008.01.30 23:17:00 - [28] Originally by: Agent Li Well Nexa, I do believe the corp hopping is lame and should be petitionable. I also think that no one in game whatsoever should have an alt, or more than one game account (or more than one character) no reflection on you though Imagine this scenario, if you will. Let's say 30 people are in a corp - their mains are all in one corp, and their two alts are each in two other corps, all with the same people in them. You wardec the first corp. So, they dock, and play using their alts. Now you can't even find them... Is that an abuse of mechanics? I think it is. suppose for a second that this is actually a good idea. how do you plan to enforce it? only 1 account on one credit card?* well how about a spouse buying the other one an account as well. what about gtc¦s? so thats out of the question. only 1 account to an ip adress? well what about more than one induvidual wanting to play in a house hold? you gonna tell my brother he cant play because i already play? so thats out of the question too and now suppose for a second that this is actually a bad idea. what are the chances at all, that ccp is going to voluntarily limit their player base, just to enforce some rather questionable ideals? i got a few accounts. why? well, soon after i started playing i realized i wanted to experience more of eve and not limit myself to just one niche. i thought it was a wonderful game and i would really be missing out on a lot of stuff if i didnt have more chars. am i abusing game mechanics be cause of that? sure there are a lot of players are using alts and other accounts to make life easier for themselfs. but there is also a lot of people who are using the internet for illegal things. should we ban the internet as well? Originally by: Admiral Love Hmm creating a thread like this is perhaps a little like sitting naked with bleeding balls in a pool of piranhas. I Won't do it again - most of you guys are pretty nasty.
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.30 23:32:00 - [29] This is why we should be able to "war dec" individuals instead of corporations. Maybe, 1 mill a week? Project: Gank - Solo Pilgrim Video
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.01.30 23:33:00 - [30] Originally by: Willie Garvin I dont think this is gonna be a real problem for mercs. Having a 100+ members corpjumping is a pain in the ass. Not very practical This tactic is only useful for mini corps. Tactic or exploit?

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