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Bigeasy
Caldari Shadow Of The Light Scorched Earth Directive
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Posted - 2008.02.01 15:36:00 -
[61]
Originally by: The Mittani rise is fascinating because:
1. cascades are fascinating 2. they really thought they were amazing elite pvp'ers holding off the hordes, rather than renters imported from outer ring who paid 6b a month to bob, so when the time came we had been watching them chestbeat for long time and obliterating them was all the more interesting 3. council governments give the best chatlogs, the infighting at the council level was amazing to watch and offered a lot of entertainment for goons 4. all that misery trapped in a one-exit constellation its like a m&m with suffering on the inside instead of chocolate :3
<3
Let them hate, so long as they fear-Caligula |
Jaffur
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.01 15:56:00 -
[62]
Dungar is the worst poaster
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Fafer
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:12:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Shadoo
There were few key battles I recall during the time we returned where we managed to win the engagements outnumbered, sometimes thanks to luck and usually thanks to spy network. On every major engagement our FCs had a direct convo with a person in RISE fleets. We knew when they were active, where they were going to hit and what range from the fleet they were going to come out to.
I was member of Rise from start and in whole its lifetime PL spies were worst thing for me. Everything we've done, you reacted immediately, thus giving us no chance whatsoever. This in-gang/teamspeak spy was so obvious to us that many people just gave up on fighting you (at least i did). It really was no fun for us.
and btw, if you are interested, every member of my ex-corp was paying 13M isk per month for rent.
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Talon Scorpio
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:34:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Talon Scorpio on 01/02/2008 16:45:22
Originally by: Shadoo After tourney nonsense and few days to recover, we were asked to redeploy to the area for a new offensive.
RISE had bounced back obviously during our time away. They managed to gather larger fleets again on short notice on every TZ, while before the BoB intervention their numbers were starting to go down. After that event, we went all out and started to deploy large bubbles on every gate and every station undock. We must have lost in the region on 20-30 Large Bubbles, since they kept dying everytime RISE drew enough people into gang to push us off and before we got enough people back from AFK to stop them. But for every bubble -- they lost ships. And that kept us going.
With RISE numbers severely dwindling, we becan to hit station services repeatedly until eventually -- they were never repaired. At that time, it was not uncommon to see maybe 10 RISE pilots in the whole RHG constellation.
The end was rather uneventful, the moment Goonfleet deployed to the area (besides BlackOps who we had now grown to work very closely with <3) -- Pandemic pulled out. GF+TCF+RA took the constellation in short order, with no real fights as far as I can recall.
So there...
Shadoo, Interesting read, appreciate that you are simply relaying fact from your side without smack. Fair man, it seems.
There were conflicting orders at that time. Most RISE pilots left Core due to being told to LEAVE. Leadership was diffuse, nearly non-existent. Attempts to engage leadership in anything in terms of concrete plans were met with silence and waffling. Most FCs had bolted or were apathetic, one or two further derailed alliance moral by their attitudes and outspoken cries of doom. In retrospect, and I think a lot of RISE knew it at the time, we simply could not have held the space due to the strategic location of the constellation and the strong animosity many alliances held for BoB. We held out as long as we could as a barrier to hostile enroachment for a time, we knew we could not succeed, but the idea was to buy some time. 6 Billion a month was frequently waived. We held out as long as we could, a few of us were there on the day RISE informally drew it's last breath. There were good people in the alliance, and yes, some of us have moved on to further bump heads with you. I am resigned to being the focus of a great deal of spite. I rarely answer back to it in a public way. RISE had a policy of no smack in local. I didn't see a lot of RISE smacking back goons or PL. Sorry some of you are so bitter. Generosity is the luxury of the victor and the silent acknowledgement of failure with dignity is the option of the loser.
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Ephemeral Waves
The Nine Gates
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:37:00 -
[65]
The quoted post has many inaccuracies - which were part of the general delusions of the RISE membership.
The member in question joined a month after RISE began their "invasion" of Tenef. I was in the allied fleet the responded to RISE's call for help to begin this invasion. RISE's leadership asked their allies to muster all the help that they could to help lock down KW- at 0300. BoB had a 100+ BS gang clear the system. D-R, CoRM, EXE and a couple of the smaller local allies locked the system down with another 100+ ships. And then we waited 4 hours for RISE to actually log on and say "oops, we told our members 0700". The freighters that were supposed help them spam towers never did log on and they only ended up dropping 2 or 3 towers that night. An 8-hour op with 200 allied pilots was wasted by RISE's leadership.
Unfortunately, intra-alliance politics shortly after this led my corp to join RISE instead of leaving 0.0.
Quote: Unfortunately for them this didn't last long as we rallied and eventually destroyed all 45 towers KOS had established.
Again, as with nearly all of RISE leadership and membership, they seem to have overlooked the daily BoB capfleets that came in and knocked down the hostile towers. RISE was too scared to undock a cap ship in any system - even WITH a cynojammer.
The only dread op initiated by RISE in this entire time was when our CEO logged on drunk, said "screw this" and rolled our corp dreads out. RISE FC's spent the entire night yelling at him for doing it. They spent their time chasing ghosts around the constellation while the RISE grunts laughed at them and listened to our CEO's drunk lecture on cap op proceedures. We knocked down two towers in 2 hours - 2 more than RISE had managed on their own in the previous 2 days. The next day one of the FC's started a thread on RISE's boards criticising our CEO and immediately had responses from the RISE grunts saying how good it was to see RISE caps in action and wondering why the other FC's were to gutless to try it.
Quote: Sturmgrenadier tried to go back on the offensive but at this point leadership at the alliance level must have been pretty divided as none of the other corps put any significant presence into the KW theatre. Eventually sturmgrenadier had to recall troops home to help defend against renewed pressure from PL & Goonswarm.
While Sturm was off in KW- (mostly sitting in POSes) the rest of RISE was sitting in RIT staring at cloaked goons and PL and trying to figure out how to handle the threat to our home systems instead of wasting time and ISK in KW-. Nevermind the number of RISE FC's who seemed to think that hari-kari charges were a great way of fighting and that a BC was a "heavy" combatant. Even when a fleet did form, there were rarely any BS's and most of those were not fitted properly.
Quote: * Home Guard command had little to no authority to issue orders.
What Home Guard Command? Never heard of it (and I was a corp director).
Quote: ...because BoB never showed up to fill their role in the plan.
This is blatantly false. BoB responded to every request for help, even after a TS spy (that RISE did nothing to try to catch) led the combined fleet into a trap. BoB stopped showing up when RISE stopped showing up. RISE called for help and 20 pilots joined gang to meet 100 BoB pilots ... if RISE wasn't going to fight for its space why should BoB? CoRM, DFC and EXE continued flying into RISE space alongside BoB even when they had hostiles in their own systems because RISE was an ally but RISE couldn't be bothered to fight for it's own space and spent more time moaning about how bad their allies were than they did fighting.
[cont]
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Ephemeral Waves
The Nine Gates
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:42:00 -
[66]
I don't know the history behind Yaay's speach. Our corp had already decided that RISE was too flawed to live - even without the external pressure - and had moved out.
About the time that we were going to advise RISE that we were leaving, they remembered that they'd forgotten to vote on our permanent membership (14-day trial period) - but this was 3 months after joined and that they'd forgotten to give our directors access to the alliance council discussions. One of them came and asked me why we never participated in the discussions and seemed embarrassed when I told him we didn't know anything about them and had no access to that part of their forum.
In the closing, we met many good people in RISE and still speak with many of them. We met many very bad FC's and we refused to fly with them. There were many people who were working hard to support the alliance but without any central direction.
In the end, RISE can't blame anybody but their own leadership for what happened to them.
Eph.
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Ephemeral Waves
The Nine Gates
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:50:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Those people were AFK at POSs - almost the entire time, everyone we had active was camping gates, stations, or doing trips around the constellation. But that is minor.
This is s spurious argument that all proponents of AFK cloakers make. It doesn't matter if the cloaker is afk or not. 30 afk cloaked hostiles in system is still 30 hostiles. 60 hostiles across the constellation, most cloaked, is till 60 hostiles. You can't assume that they are AFK. You have to assume that they are active.
So it wasn't "20" PL pilots shutting down the constellation. It was 40-60 on-line goons (and friends) and at least another 30-80 logged off goons with 2-3 MS's in p8- (and RISE leaderships's inability to muster any response to them).
Prime example: we baited a disco-domi in a belt one night and 15 "AFK" goons warped into the belt to get on the kill. Unfortunately, we didn't have enough points to hold them all through the stabs and only got 1 kill while saving the bait.
Eph.
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Ephemeral Waves
The Nine Gates
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:56:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Flow Befort what was the reason farscape got banned again?
POS bowling.
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Lina Jakiri
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:59:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Ephemeral Waves
Originally by: Flow Befort what was the reason farscape got banned again?
POS bowling.
No, he wasn't pos bowling. As it's pretty hard to do that in a Machariel.
Bumping is what he was doing.
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Doal
Caldari Carbide Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:25:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Doal on 01/02/2008 17:26:34
Originally by: Ephemeral Waves
The only dread op initiated by RISE in this entire time was when our CEO logged on drunk, said "screw this" and rolled our corp dreads out. RISE FC's spent the entire night yelling at him for doing it. They spent their time chasing ghosts around the constellation while the RISE grunts laughed at them and listened to our CEO's drunk lecture on cap op proceedures. We knocked down two towers in 2 hours - 2 more than RISE had managed on their own in the previous 2 days. The next day one of the FC's started a thread on RISE's boards criticising our CEO and immediately had responses from the RISE grunts saying how good it was to see RISE caps in action and wondering why the other FC's were to gutless to try it.
As POS bashing ops go, that was the highlight of the RISE efforts in the RIT triangle.
Anyone who showed any sort of initiative was berated for risking too much. It happened time and again. We had fleet ops where the 'FC' had to consult with 5-10 other shadow FCs before making a decision. In some of those ops, there were more red lights on TS than green ones. Most of us who quit dotting up every time the call came out did it because we knew we'd be sitting at the same POS for 1-2 hours, then stand down when the FC council decided it was too risky to actually do anything.
RISE leadership was too weak and vascillating to accomplish anything. The council could never agree on much of anything, and different factions within RISE would go off and issue conflicting orders. RISE was to base out of allies' stations in Fountain and get back to fun PvP ops (large and small) and avoid POS warfare and sovereignty. No sooner had that decision been announced to the rank and file, than RISE decided to take a station in Fountain for it's very own. Of course, we all know what happened. RISE took the station, put up towers, then lost it to BRUCE almost immediately. That was the end. RISE disbanded.
--- Doal |
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Virgil Aquilis
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:29:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Talon Scorpio Edited by: Talon Scorpio on 01/02/2008 16:46:41 Shadoo, Interesting read. There were conflicting orders at that time. Most RISE pilots left Core due to being told to LEAVE. Leadership was diffuse, nearly non-existent. Attempts to engage leadership in anything in terms of concrete plans were met with silence and waffling. Most FCs had bolted or were apathetic, one or two further derailed alliance moral by their attitudes and outspoken cries of doom. In retrospect, and I think a lot of RISE knew it at the time, we simply could not have held the space due to the strategic location of the constellation and the strong animosity many alliances held for BoB. We held out as long as we could as a barrier to hostile enroachment for a time, we knew we could not succeed, but the idea was to buy some time. 6 Billion a month was frequently waived. We held out as long as we could, a few of us were there on the day RISE informally drew it's last breath. There were good people in the alliance, and yes, some of us have moved on to further bump heads with you. I am resigned to being the focus of a great deal of spite. I rarely answer back to it in a public way. RISE had a policy of no smack in local. I didn't see a lot of RISE smacking back goons or PL. Sorry some of you are so bitter. Generosity is the luxury of the victor and the silent acknowledgement of failure with dignity is the option of the loser.
Well will you look at that, an ex-RISE person in BoB
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
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Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:47:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Talon Scorpio Shadoo, Interesting read. There were conflicting orders at that time. Most RISE pilots left Core due to being told to LEAVE. Leadership was diffuse, nearly non-existent. Attempts to engage leadership in anything in terms of concrete plans were met with silence and waffling. Most FCs had bolted or were apathetic, one or two further derailed alliance moral by their attitudes and outspoken cries of doom. In retrospect, and I think a lot of RISE knew it at the time, we simply could not have held the space due to the strategic location of the constellation and the strong animosity many alliances held for BoB. We held out as long as we could as a barrier to hostile enroachment for a time, we knew we could not succeed, but the idea was to buy some time. 6 Billion a month was frequently waived. We held out as long as we could, a few of us were there on the day RISE informally drew it's last breath. There were good people in the alliance, and yes, some of us have moved on to further bump heads with you. I am resigned to being the focus of a great deal of spite. I rarely answer back to it in a public way. RISE had a policy of no smack in local. I didn't see a lot of RISE smacking back goons or PL. Sorry some of you are so bitter. Generosity is the luxury of the victor and the silent acknowledgement of failure with dignity is the option of the loser.
To me the failure of the Rise leadership was way before any of the final battles happened.
Rise moved to RIT with the intention of living there, not with the intention of being a meatshield for BoB.
As soon as Rise was in danger of becoming a disposeable meatshield for BoB, the leadership should have made plans for an emergency bail. Not out of cowardice, but out of self interest. And at very latest when it became completely clear that Rise was nothing but a meatshield anymore, the bail should have been executed.
IMHO it is pretty unwise to protect your landlord till your own death, especially if you moved to the land to gain benefit from it, and not to die there miserably.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki |
Ephemeral Waves
The Nine Gates
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:56:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Doal We had fleet ops where the 'FC' had to consult with 5-10 other shadow FCs before making a decision. In some of those ops, there were more red lights on TS than green ones.
I'd forgotten that part. Must have been a repressed memory.
a 30-man gang with 11 command lights on. FC-by-committee we called it. Guaranteed to lead to disaster. And so many times the FC's forgot that they were chatting on command links and warped off without saying anything to the rest of the fleet.
There were a few FC's that told the rest to stfu and lead their gangs and lead them well. They tended not to be "official" RISE FC's or were low-ranking RISE FC's but they did more, fought harder and fought smarter than the "official", high-ranked, ones.
Eph.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:32:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 01/02/2008 18:34:08 wow you sound really angry eph
The reason there needs to be a distinction between "60 PL and goons and eighty motherships and five titans" and "20 PL and 20 afk sitting in a POS a few systems over" is because the way you phrase it, RISE was always fighting outnumbered, against the odds, holding out like some kind of martyr, when in actuality there were very few times we (we, PL, I'm not talking about blackops, Goonfleet, specops, UNL, TCF, etc) engaged with anywhere near the same numbers. Of course there was the occasional Goonfleet, UNL, TCF, or other gang that stopped by, but by and large, it was just us and a few Goonfleet members who locked your system down for months.
In fact, often when we tried to engage you, despite outnumbering us substancially, you ran, so we had to resort to baiting you. One memorable example was Farscape going "afk" in a safespot, and you guys warping your gang of 20 in to try and gank him. We had TWELVE in gang, including Farscape, and as soon as we got on grid you guys bailed.
You can wave your arms in the air and scream "this isn't true, it's not true promise!" all you want, but I still have videos of our engagements laying around. Don't pretend that the baiting was a tactic we started on our own - it was in response to your inability (or refusal) to commit to a fight. ---
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:38:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Talon Scorpio
6 Billion a month was frequently waived.
i was in rise's council forums the whole time, this didn't happen
ps update your myspace please!
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:46:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Ephemeral Waves
This is blatantly false. BoB responded to every request for help, even after a TS spy (that RISE did nothing to try to catch) led the combined fleet into a trap. BoB stopped showing up when RISE stopped showing up. RISE called for help and 20 pilots joined gang to meet 100 BoB pilots ... if RISE wasn't going to fight for its space why should BoB? CoRM, DFC and EXE continued flying into RISE space alongside BoB even when they had hostiles in their own systems because RISE was an ally but RISE couldn't be bothered to fight for it's own space and spent more time moaning about how bad their allies were than they did fighting.
yeah all the threads in the council discussing withholding rent from bob because bob wasn't responding to rise at all until the final evac op (itself delayed 4 times) showed that bob was ready and willing to help rise at the drop of a hat
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:48:00 -
[77]
should have stayed with exe
or
should have listened to royofca ---
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TWD
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:55:00 -
[78]
This opening post of the thread posted by a coalition member looks trustworthy and not like an attempt to discredit BoB at all! |
KeratinBoy
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:56:00 -
[79]
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Talon Scorpio
6 Billion a month was frequently waived.
i was in rise's council forums the whole time, this didn't happen
Did you post all that chat****? I don't remember reading it. Also, any current BoB stuff you can whet our appetites with?
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Talon Scorpio
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.01 19:05:00 -
[80]
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Talon Scorpio
6 Billion a month was frequently waived.
i was in rise's council forums the whole time, this didn't happen
ps update your myspace please!
The whole time? Factual error. Some might call your claim an outright lie. Good day, sir.
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Scavok
UA Industry Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.01 19:08:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Ephemeral Waves
This is blatantly false. BoB responded to every request for help, even after a TS spy (that RISE did nothing to try to catch) led the combined fleet into a trap.
If this was that fight in P8- on the RIT gate we did in fact have a spy, but he had nothing to do with killing your fleet. I just happened to have a covops next to where the BoB gang warped in at, I don't understand how a spy could have helped with that. But it was pretty damn funny when BoB kicked all the RISE out of their teamspeak because their egos couldn't handle the fact that they legitimately lost some ships.
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Ephemeral Waves
The Nine Gates
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Posted - 2008.02.01 19:24:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Ephemeral Waves on 01/02/2008 19:25:47
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth ...is because the way you phrase it, RISE was always fighting outnumbered...
Actually, if you read it again, the way I phrased it was "RISE didn't fight".
But you're confusing two different points that I was making. PL likes to claim that they shut down the constellation with 20 ships; while there were usually over 40 cloaked hostiles in the constellation. Don't get me wrong - there were often 40+ RISE hanger queens in the constellation at the same time.
I won't deny that the RISE FC's refused to engage, even when they had superior numbers. That was yet another problem with that alliance's leadership.
Eph.
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Ario
Caldari Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 19:56:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Kylegar
IMO, A single leader would have saved RISE, just noone stepped up to tell the council to shut up and get along. There was alot of good people in RISE, and ALOT of people that were totally ****ed at the council.
I believe this is what killed RISE in the end. A democracy just doesn't work as well as a dictator does, but many of the members were against changing the fundamentals of the alliance.
RIP RISE
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Ario
Caldari Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 20:12:00 -
[84]
Originally by: The Mittani
i was in rise's council forums the whole time, this didn't happen
At the end i was 90% sure there was still a spy with full access on the RISE forums.
So if anyone has anyone has any ex RISE CEO's or directors, I would be starting to do some very good background checks.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.01 20:33:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ario
Originally by: The Mittani
i was in rise's council forums the whole time, this didn't happen
At the end i was 90% sure there was still a spy with full access on the RISE forums.
So if anyone has anyone has any ex RISE CEO's or directors, I would be starting to do some very good background checks.
There were so many spies in RISE at the end that people stopped even caring about who knew they had characters in RISE.
It's like KOS now, I know half a dozenn people with alts in KOS and they're so heavily infiltrated KOS isn't going to have a single asset by the time they get reset. ---
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Hrin
Minmatar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 20:36:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Ario
Originally by: The Mittani
i was in rise's council forums the whole time, this didn't happen
At the end i was 90% sure there was still a spy with full access on the RISE forums.
So if anyone has anyone has any ex RISE CEO's or directors, I would be starting to do some very good background checks.
only 90%?
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Kraven Kor
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 20:50:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Antipathy Sturmgrenadier picked the wrong side of the coin and it's a real shame. :(
This.
I'd still be with them. And damn, I miss them.
Lots of fine folks left SG when the move to Feyth was announced, a total flip from the then long-standing guerilla war with BoB in Aridia / Fountain. Even more left once the hammer came down from the Coalition. ----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker |
Kriger
x13 When Fat Kids Attack
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Posted - 2008.02.01 20:51:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 01/02/2008 04:40:24 I cut off the last paragraph of his post where he eventually leaves, but that is unimportant to the main story. The only inaccuracy I'd like to point out is
Quote: Posts on CAOD were comical at this point with Goons claiming that only 25 PL had locked down the RHG cluster entirely when it was, in fact, 25 PL/goons in RIT and approximately 25-30 more throughout the rest of the RIT cluster with an additional 25 or so sitting in P8 ready to come assist.
Those people were AFK at POSs - almost the entire time, everyone we had active was camping gates, stations, or doing trips around the constellation. But that is minor.
While the logistics team gets a lot of the blame, I kind of wonder how much of the failure was their fault - not putting up enough POSs along with their other problems sound more like a lack of leadership than someone not doing enough hauling. Can any former RISE members comment on this?
lol omg what a 'look at me/PL' thread. you post this, and in the only section that somehow makes you look bad, you feel the need to comment/reply? omg fail - i though BOS were better than stunts like this. I was wrong.
.: Kriger's gfx Factory :: x13 :. |
Carin K
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.01 21:31:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Carin K on 01/02/2008 21:31:58
Originally by: Kriger omg fail - i though BOS were better than stunts like this. I was wrong.
Dungar and BOS should never be put in the same sentence, goddamn goon through and through.
Dungar was never actually recruited, the GMs moved him, its true.
PS: much love dungar
____-____
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Kylegar
Caldari Shadow Of The Light Scorched Earth Directive
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Posted - 2008.02.01 22:00:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Ario
At the end i was 90% sure there was still a spy with full access on the RISE forums.
So if anyone has anyone has any ex RISE CEO's or directors, I would be starting to do some very good background checks.
There were so many spies in RISE at the end that people stopped even caring about who knew they had characters in RISE.
It's like KOS now, I know half a dozenn people with alts in KOS and they're so heavily infiltrated KOS isn't going to have a single asset by the time they get reset.
Anyone with eyes knew who were the spies in the alliance, but noone with actual power did anything about it because they had given up on RISE, or they were too busy arguing with other council members to pay attention.
In the end, RISE was proof that a democratic style of leadership has a very hard time coping with the ammount of pressure that was put on by PL and Goon BO. The entire structure just broke down, and the alliance collapsed.
Oh, and noticed when PL backed off from RISE during the tournament. Infact, that was the only time I tried to get the alliance to do anything. I made many posts on the RISE forums for hitting KW- with all we have, but were constantly struck down with "We need to make ISK", and "They will be back, we need to prepair". Looking back, there was really nothing to save RISE (I know how horrible that sounds to former RISE members), and it was just a waste of text. Hopefully it gave the PL and Goon spies something to read. --
Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
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