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KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:13:00 - [1] Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw. removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous. It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship. Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same. I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this. KIA EVE Home Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Unprogrammable Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:22:00 - [2] first.... wait what???? where does it say this He who gives up liberty for security deserves neither -Ben Franklin
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:29:00 - [3] What would you have done to boost the deimos? Give it 5 bonuses while the other HAS have 4? They don't have a mwd bonus anymore, but have a bigger capacitor to compensate. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
El Torrent Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:37:00 - [4] deimos was fine, if used in its role (gank boat) --
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Shadowsword What would you have done to boost the deimos? Give it 5 bonuses while the other HAS have 4? They don't have a mwd bonus anymore, but have a bigger capacitor to compensate. first of, the bigger cap dont compensate for to cap u loose when they take out the bonus. secondly and most important, ccp clearly show that they dont grasp what the deimos is all about when they take away one low slot to "improve the tank". If they want to change the deimos they can rather take the 6th high slot and move it to either a mid or a low, but taking away one low slot ruins this ship and will only make it perform much worse then what it does now
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:04:00 - [6] Eve gets worse with every patch, and your right soonish we will be flying ships that perform exactly the same but just look slightly different and thats because the majority of the ppl who play eve nowadays have no idea how to fly there ships properly or fit them so they whine on the forums and because they make up a large amount of ccps income they are getting there own way most of the time.
The Anointed Caldari Methods of Madness	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:52:00 - [7] I agree, I dont even like the uniformity of ships of the same race, 5% kinetic damage, rep amount, it is taking the mystery and colour out of eve. For a game thats strongest point is the non linear play, it feels strange to then introduce ships that feel restrictive and lack real variance.
Mr Horizontal KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 14:28:00 - [8] /signed. First the Eos becoming totally ineffective. Then the Myrmidon made unable to take down a Drake when set up with the Drake's uber tank setup, and now a Deimos against a Zealot when it's even in range should be a fair fight! It's not the Zealot that's the problem now, it's the Eagle and all the sniper vessels that's the problem! FFS who's birdbrain thought that was a good idea?! Yes, Gallente have massive damage. But in equal measure they have NO RANGE to play with. Fighting Gallente Blaster Boats has always been a case of: if the Gallente ship gets in range, you die. If you keep it at range, they die. Simple. Effective. Fun. Predictable. Now people will try to use the Deimos as a Rail boat and snipering from a Deimos effectively renders this ship almost entirely useless. In fact it's so ridiculously LOL just saying it! So CCP: EITHER make Railguns more easily fitable on Gallente blasterboats, thus making Gallente proper Hybrid platforms vs just blaster platforms, OR leave them the hell alone, because you've just broken something that was 100% fine. If you MUST balance the Deimos it needs even higher resists or more base Armor (for the Eagle) and even higher damage (to maintain it's damage over the Zealot when in range) Either way, it's Caldari always seem to get more love than Gallente, however and the imbalance between Caldari and Gallente is growing every patch. Now the Deimos vs an Eagle is actually my main worry.
Iva Soreass Personal Vendetta	Posted - 2008.02.02 14:55:00 - [9] Exacly my thoughts that i posted in another thread, eve is becoming one step closer to everybody flying the same ships with the same setups with the same resists//stats. I won't deny it im already looking for a alternative to play.
Hank Showbo Neyi Industries	Posted - 2008.02.02 15:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Mr Horizontal /signed. First the Eos becoming totally ineffective. Then the Myrmidon made unable to take down a Drake when set up with the Drake's uber tank setup, and now a Deimos against a Zealot when it's even in range should be a fair fight! It's not the Zealot that's the problem now, it's the Eagle and all the sniper vessels that's the problem! FFS who's birdbrain thought that was a good idea?! Yes, Gallente have massive damage. But in equal measure they have NO RANGE to play with. Fighting Gallente Blaster Boats has always been a case of: if the Gallente ship gets in range, you die. If you keep it at range, they die. Simple. Effective. Fun. Predictable. Now people will try to use the Deimos as a Rail boat and snipering from a Deimos effectively renders this ship almost entirely useless. In fact it's so ridiculously LOL just saying it! So CCP: EITHER make Railguns more easily fitable on Gallente blasterboats, thus making Gallente proper Hybrid platforms vs just blaster platforms, OR leave them the hell alone, because you've just broken something that was 100% fine. If you MUST balance the Deimos it needs even higher resists or more base Armor (for the Eagle) and even higher damage (to maintain it's damage over the Zealot when in range) Either way, it's Caldari always seem to get more love than Gallente, however and the imbalance between Caldari and Gallente is growing every patch. Now the Deimos vs an Eagle is actually my main worry. Oh come on with the exagurations. -Eos become balanced in context of fleet command ships. -The Myrmidon is still very high in damage, and your forgetting the point that when facing a well skilled uber passive tank drake 1v1 in the other battlecruisers, the outcome is the same. -1 extra gun on the Eagle was needed, its dps was poor. Diemos to me will still be one of the best ships to use hitnrun/guerilla tactics, even if this change wasnt needed.
Niffetin Gallente Omni Research	Posted - 2008.02.02 15:40:00 - [11] Zulupark is a clueless****, its that simple. --- Teeheee! mematar's Video Archive
Perfect Diamond	Posted - 2008.02.02 15:59:00 - [12] The fustration of training for an unique ship makes the game sweat/ more fulfilling. The frustration of having that ship changed makes you feel like leaving the game. I don't have the time to start another MMORPG. So if I ever leave this game, I'm not starting another.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:13:00 - [13] Originally by: El Torrent deimos was fine, if used in its role (gank boat) Too bad no one used it. People like to nano ishtars instead. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:16:00 - [14] With most of the other changes CCP has made recently, I've seen the reason behind them. I haven't always agreed with how or how much something got changed, but I agreed with them that what got changed needed to be changed. But the Deimos? I see no rhyme or reason behind it. It's a point-blank range gank boat, possibly the best in the game, so I see no need to make it a good tanking ship. And even if its tank did need to be improved, moving a low slot from an armor tanker to a mid slot really makes me scratch my head. Maybe CCP is thinking that you'll have room for a cap booster now? But if that's the case, why not leave the low slot and put that useless high slot down to a mid slot to make room for a booster. Yeah, everything else I can live with, but the Deimos? I can't even fly one and I'm like WTF? -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:18:00 - [15] Well a few months ago I said. "I am startign an amarr alt, because one they they will be buffed and gallente will be nerfed to oblivion in the next dark age of eve". Everyone laughed at me... see now who is laughing? I have lready trained 8 months in amarr skills instead of goign the galente flavor everyone said shoudl be done.... ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kresh Vladir Caldari Obsidian Inc. KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:15:00 - [16] Well i was a huge fan of the EOS, it got hit HARD with the introduction of bandwidth. Yes i can to some point agree that its weird that the fleet command ship could outdamage most of the field commandships, but still that sucked. Now the Eos got hit again, 4 fitted and rigged eoses soon to reprocessed or used to shoot concord with. Deimos, love it, either this or a vagabond if im needed in a hac, they are so diffrent yet so effective in their own ways. Now i dont think ill undock my deimoses ever again since the vaga is better if this goes through. I mean cmon a tanked hac, yea it was uber TWO years ago! And no im no lover of nanohacs but when you go roaming 100+ jumps you do love the extra agility and speed. Anyone care to do a 100 jump roam with tanked to **** hacs? Dont think so cause downtime would hit before you got back home. Anyone few fitted and rigged ships i can shoot concord with. Bottomline, dont break something thats not broken just cause something else was broken in the beginning, i know its hard and its an upcoming theme (not only for ccp but for most mmo's iwe played). But above all, DONT, never ever take away joy of a shiphangar with 20 diffrent ship that got 20 diffrent characteristics just cause you took the easy way out and evened them out instead of balancing them well. If we all want to be the same we will go raid in wow
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:28:00 - [17] Its just a result of player demand. Players want ships that are genericaly good across the board and arent prepared to accept a weakness in one area, with a strength in another. Also players are becoming more frenzied over the desire for a 'fair' fight (whatever one of those is) and if faced with a 'specialized' ship come wailing to the forums. It was the same with ECM and Nos, and I imagine it will be the same for nano ships: nobody is prepared to go beyond EFT and think outside of the 'cookie cutter box' and come up with the counter. Shame, but thats the current trend. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Sara Roeburn	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:30:00 - [18] Edited by: Sara Roeburn on 02/02/2008 17:31:56 Originally by: Mr Horizontal Either way, it's Caldari always seem to get more love than Gallente, however and the imbalance between Caldari and Gallente is growing every patch. Now the Deimos vs an Eagle is actually my main worry. OMFG Caldari rail ships might finally become useful and you are trying to claim there is some kind of growing imbalance? The imbalance is actually shrinking between the Hybrid platforms but you still have superior drone bays and much more damage output. And don't quote the range factor because EVEs pvp creates tactical situations where short range is most viable in anything except a fleet fight. So the main Caldari advantage is usually turned into a disadvantage because of long range weapons poor close range tracking and damage performance. When Caldari ships have drone bays 4 times larger than the Gallante ships with damage bonuses on most ships and pvp that suits their combat style better then you can claim Caldari are overpowered next to Gallante.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:34:00 - [19] Edited by: LUKEC on 02/02/2008 17:35:27 Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw. removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous. It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship. Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same. I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this. The whole "this ship pwns, this ship sucks, setup 4tw, setup 4tl" attitude is totally pointless in eve in 2007/08. It's totally irrelevant what ship you use and HOW YOU FIT IT it but how many ppl you have ganking around with you. Bottom line, flying ghetto blob 4tw. Bonus question: how long did it take for Farjung to figure out optimal vindicator setup?
Jacob Holland Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:37:00 - [20] Why? Because people seem to think that they need to compete in the areas they perceive as another's strengths. It's the same reason that people want Caldari speed boosted, because they believe that their Caracal needs to be fast enough to outrun a Thorax or a Rupture or they'll never compete with them. They forget the strengths they themselves have, in the example above their Caracal can be hitting the other ship from more than 100km out, even without speed mods the Caracal can add 15-20km to that as the Thorax closes. If you can't take hit them hard enough in that time to make them run away then (assuming equal skill) you should still have enough time to take them out before they finish you. Why? because you've used your strengths to your advantage and they haven't. Therefore you have people complaining that they can't match the tank of the Amarr, the speed of the Minmatar, the damage of the Gallente or the range of the Caldari. Of course making everything identical is the easiest way of making things fair (or making them be seen to be fair). -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Sara Roeburn	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Jacob Holland Why? Because people seem to think that they need to compete in the areas they perceive as another's strengths. It's the same reason that people want Caldari speed boosted, because they believe that their Caracal needs to be fast enough to outrun a Thorax or a Rupture or they'll never compete with them. They forget the strengths they themselves have, in the example above their Caracal can be hitting the other ship from more than 100km out, even without speed mods the Caracal can add 15-20km to that as the Thorax closes. If you can't take hit them hard enough in that time to make them run away then (assuming equal skill) you should still have enough time to take them out before they finish you. Why? because you've used your strengths to your advantage and they haven't. Therefore you have people complaining that they can't match the tank of the Amarr, the speed of the Minmatar, the damage of the Gallente or the range of the Caldari. Of course making everything identical is the easiest way of making things fair (or making them be seen to be fair). Problem is an Amarrs tanks is usefull and so is the Matari speed and so is the Gallante damage. What use is the 100km+ range on the Caracal? the Thorax still has a counter to that strategy and would just warp off but if the Caracal is caught in the Thoraxs tactical niche (which is 9 out of 10 EVE combat situations) the Caracal is simply screwed and has no counter. And if the Thorax was tackled and the Caracal was pounding on it from 100km what use is that really? Another close range ship would probably do the job much better at sub 20km ranges so why use the Caracal?
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:50:00 - [22] Amarr have the best tank, min the best speed, and gal the best dammage? Way to completely - and I mean completely - oversimplify eve to prove a point about the Caracal(lol).
Khorian Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:03:00 - [23] /signing this thread too. No change to the Deimos! ---
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:04:00 - [24] Edited by: General Coochie on 02/02/2008 19:05:03 Originally by: Sara Roeburn Originally by: Jacob Holland Why? Because people seem to think that they need to compete in the areas they perceive as another's strengths. It's the same reason that people want Caldari speed boosted, because they believe that their Caracal needs to be fast enough to outrun a Thorax or a Rupture or they'll never compete with them. They forget the strengths they themselves have, in the example above their Caracal can be hitting the other ship from more than 100km out, even without speed mods the Caracal can add 15-20km to that as the Thorax closes. If you can't take hit them hard enough in that time to make them run away then (assuming equal skill) you should still have enough time to take them out before they finish you. Why? because you've used your strengths to your advantage and they haven't. Therefore you have people complaining that they can't match the tank of the Amarr, the speed of the Minmatar, the damage of the Gallente or the range of the Caldari. Of course making everything identical is the easiest way of making things fair (or making them be seen to be fair). Problem is an Amarrs tanks is usefull and so is the Matari speed and so is the Gallante damage. What use is the 100km+ range on the Caracal? the Thorax still has a counter to that strategy and would just warp off but if the Caracal is caught in the Thoraxs tactical niche (which is 9 out of 10 EVE combat situations) the Caracal is simply screwed and has no counter. And if the Thorax was tackled and the Caracal was pounding on it from 100km what use is that really? Another close range ship would probably do the job much better at sub 20km ranges so why use the Caracal? The Caracal can deal any dmg type at 100km, its very useful. Ppl just can't see beyond the things that are commonly used. Don't fly the deimos myself, but was gonna start flying it soon. Oh well I guess it will be more intresting now coming up with a fit of my own.
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:11:00 - [25] Edited by: Julius Romanus on 02/02/2008 19:13:01 HAHA i just actually looked at it. 220dps @ 126k w/ CN scourge, boo hoo. At least flight time keeps it reasonable. (for reference thats more than the old 4x Heavy beam, 3x heat sink zealot put out at 100km)
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:13:00 - [26] Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 02/02/2008 19:12:57 the amount of deimos threads are OVER 9000!
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:22:00 - [27] the deimos was complete and utter **** before. Now it may only be crap, dunno haven't thought about it enough yet. However any change was a good one because the old deimos was completely useless is every scenario imaginable. And yes I do know how to play, better than you. PAK is recruiting!
Sara Roeburn	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:22:00 - [28] Originally by: Julius Romanus Edited by: Julius Romanus on 02/02/2008 19:13:01 HAHA i just actually looked at it. 220dps @ 126k w/ CN scourge, boo hoo. At least flight time keeps it reasonable. (for reference thats more than the old 4x Heavy beam, 3x heat sink zealot put out at 100km) The Caracal does do impressive damage at range but again whats the point when your target can just disengage? And I repeat that if the Target is tackled another ship that's suited for close range will do the job better. Range has a tactical counter IE ****offski but close range does not have many counters except for nano ships and most the time EVE combat is close range because of it being at gates or outside POS or stations. In the alliance tourney we saw Caracals really laying down some hurt but warping away like in real combat was not a factor in those fights. Im not complaining about the Caracal either im just pointing out that long range is not much of an advantage.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:23:00 - [29] This thread isn't about the Deimos I believe that a healthy game needs to have strong sense of uniqueness among the different ships. Things that differ a lot from each other are nearly impossible to balance and there is always pressure to make things balanced. But perfect balance is perfect equality, where everything is the same - it is boredom. I hope devs have the spirit and vision to increase diversity inspite of balance issues. Or at least preserve the current special things, such as nanoship tactics, MWD bonuses (very special bonus)
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:59:00 - [30] People need to get it into their thick skulls that imbalance != diversity, in fact it's quite the opposite, because everybody will just fly the same couple of 'uberships'. I am no supporter of this Deimos change, it is odd.... to put it mildly. I am a supporter of the Myrmidon and the Eos changes though, because: a) their uniqueness didn't go away (except their 'uberness') b) they were too powerful for their respective racial roles Diversity should come from racial characteristics (and certain bonuses maybe), but certainly not from imbalance. ---

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OVER 9000!