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KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:13:00 - [1] Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw. removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous. It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship. Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same. I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this. KIA EVE Home Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Unprogrammable Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:22:00 - [2] first.... wait what???? where does it say this He who gives up liberty for security deserves neither -Ben Franklin
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:29:00 - [3] What would you have done to boost the deimos? Give it 5 bonuses while the other HAS have 4? They don't have a mwd bonus anymore, but have a bigger capacitor to compensate. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
El Torrent Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:37:00 - [4] deimos was fine, if used in its role (gank boat) --
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Shadowsword What would you have done to boost the deimos? Give it 5 bonuses while the other HAS have 4? They don't have a mwd bonus anymore, but have a bigger capacitor to compensate. first of, the bigger cap dont compensate for to cap u loose when they take out the bonus. secondly and most important, ccp clearly show that they dont grasp what the deimos is all about when they take away one low slot to "improve the tank". If they want to change the deimos they can rather take the 6th high slot and move it to either a mid or a low, but taking away one low slot ruins this ship and will only make it perform much worse then what it does now
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:04:00 - [6] Eve gets worse with every patch, and your right soonish we will be flying ships that perform exactly the same but just look slightly different and thats because the majority of the ppl who play eve nowadays have no idea how to fly there ships properly or fit them so they whine on the forums and because they make up a large amount of ccps income they are getting there own way most of the time.
The Anointed Caldari Methods of Madness	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:52:00 - [7] I agree, I dont even like the uniformity of ships of the same race, 5% kinetic damage, rep amount, it is taking the mystery and colour out of eve. For a game thats strongest point is the non linear play, it feels strange to then introduce ships that feel restrictive and lack real variance.
Mr Horizontal KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 14:28:00 - [8] /signed. First the Eos becoming totally ineffective. Then the Myrmidon made unable to take down a Drake when set up with the Drake's uber tank setup, and now a Deimos against a Zealot when it's even in range should be a fair fight! It's not the Zealot that's the problem now, it's the Eagle and all the sniper vessels that's the problem! FFS who's birdbrain thought that was a good idea?! Yes, Gallente have massive damage. But in equal measure they have NO RANGE to play with. Fighting Gallente Blaster Boats has always been a case of: if the Gallente ship gets in range, you die. If you keep it at range, they die. Simple. Effective. Fun. Predictable. Now people will try to use the Deimos as a Rail boat and snipering from a Deimos effectively renders this ship almost entirely useless. In fact it's so ridiculously LOL just saying it! So CCP: EITHER make Railguns more easily fitable on Gallente blasterboats, thus making Gallente proper Hybrid platforms vs just blaster platforms, OR leave them the hell alone, because you've just broken something that was 100% fine. If you MUST balance the Deimos it needs even higher resists or more base Armor (for the Eagle) and even higher damage (to maintain it's damage over the Zealot when in range) Either way, it's Caldari always seem to get more love than Gallente, however and the imbalance between Caldari and Gallente is growing every patch. Now the Deimos vs an Eagle is actually my main worry.
Iva Soreass Personal Vendetta	Posted - 2008.02.02 14:55:00 - [9] Exacly my thoughts that i posted in another thread, eve is becoming one step closer to everybody flying the same ships with the same setups with the same resists//stats. I won't deny it im already looking for a alternative to play.
Hank Showbo Neyi Industries	Posted - 2008.02.02 15:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Mr Horizontal /signed. First the Eos becoming totally ineffective. Then the Myrmidon made unable to take down a Drake when set up with the Drake's uber tank setup, and now a Deimos against a Zealot when it's even in range should be a fair fight! It's not the Zealot that's the problem now, it's the Eagle and all the sniper vessels that's the problem! FFS who's birdbrain thought that was a good idea?! Yes, Gallente have massive damage. But in equal measure they have NO RANGE to play with. Fighting Gallente Blaster Boats has always been a case of: if the Gallente ship gets in range, you die. If you keep it at range, they die. Simple. Effective. Fun. Predictable. Now people will try to use the Deimos as a Rail boat and snipering from a Deimos effectively renders this ship almost entirely useless. In fact it's so ridiculously LOL just saying it! So CCP: EITHER make Railguns more easily fitable on Gallente blasterboats, thus making Gallente proper Hybrid platforms vs just blaster platforms, OR leave them the hell alone, because you've just broken something that was 100% fine. If you MUST balance the Deimos it needs even higher resists or more base Armor (for the Eagle) and even higher damage (to maintain it's damage over the Zealot when in range) Either way, it's Caldari always seem to get more love than Gallente, however and the imbalance between Caldari and Gallente is growing every patch. Now the Deimos vs an Eagle is actually my main worry. Oh come on with the exagurations. -Eos become balanced in context of fleet command ships. -The Myrmidon is still very high in damage, and your forgetting the point that when facing a well skilled uber passive tank drake 1v1 in the other battlecruisers, the outcome is the same. -1 extra gun on the Eagle was needed, its dps was poor. Diemos to me will still be one of the best ships to use hitnrun/guerilla tactics, even if this change wasnt needed.
Niffetin Gallente Omni Research	Posted - 2008.02.02 15:40:00 - [11] Zulupark is a clueless****, its that simple. --- Teeheee! mematar's Video Archive
Perfect Diamond	Posted - 2008.02.02 15:59:00 - [12] The fustration of training for an unique ship makes the game sweat/ more fulfilling. The frustration of having that ship changed makes you feel like leaving the game. I don't have the time to start another MMORPG. So if I ever leave this game, I'm not starting another.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:13:00 - [13] Originally by: El Torrent deimos was fine, if used in its role (gank boat) Too bad no one used it. People like to nano ishtars instead. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:16:00 - [14] With most of the other changes CCP has made recently, I've seen the reason behind them. I haven't always agreed with how or how much something got changed, but I agreed with them that what got changed needed to be changed. But the Deimos? I see no rhyme or reason behind it. It's a point-blank range gank boat, possibly the best in the game, so I see no need to make it a good tanking ship. And even if its tank did need to be improved, moving a low slot from an armor tanker to a mid slot really makes me scratch my head. Maybe CCP is thinking that you'll have room for a cap booster now? But if that's the case, why not leave the low slot and put that useless high slot down to a mid slot to make room for a booster. Yeah, everything else I can live with, but the Deimos? I can't even fly one and I'm like WTF? -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:18:00 - [15] Well a few months ago I said. "I am startign an amarr alt, because one they they will be buffed and gallente will be nerfed to oblivion in the next dark age of eve". Everyone laughed at me... see now who is laughing? I have lready trained 8 months in amarr skills instead of goign the galente flavor everyone said shoudl be done.... ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kresh Vladir Caldari Obsidian Inc. KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:15:00 - [16] Well i was a huge fan of the EOS, it got hit HARD with the introduction of bandwidth. Yes i can to some point agree that its weird that the fleet command ship could outdamage most of the field commandships, but still that sucked. Now the Eos got hit again, 4 fitted and rigged eoses soon to reprocessed or used to shoot concord with. Deimos, love it, either this or a vagabond if im needed in a hac, they are so diffrent yet so effective in their own ways. Now i dont think ill undock my deimoses ever again since the vaga is better if this goes through. I mean cmon a tanked hac, yea it was uber TWO years ago! And no im no lover of nanohacs but when you go roaming 100+ jumps you do love the extra agility and speed. Anyone care to do a 100 jump roam with tanked to **** hacs? Dont think so cause downtime would hit before you got back home. Anyone few fitted and rigged ships i can shoot concord with. Bottomline, dont break something thats not broken just cause something else was broken in the beginning, i know its hard and its an upcoming theme (not only for ccp but for most mmo's iwe played). But above all, DONT, never ever take away joy of a shiphangar with 20 diffrent ship that got 20 diffrent characteristics just cause you took the easy way out and evened them out instead of balancing them well. If we all want to be the same we will go raid in wow
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:28:00 - [17] Its just a result of player demand. Players want ships that are genericaly good across the board and arent prepared to accept a weakness in one area, with a strength in another. Also players are becoming more frenzied over the desire for a 'fair' fight (whatever one of those is) and if faced with a 'specialized' ship come wailing to the forums. It was the same with ECM and Nos, and I imagine it will be the same for nano ships: nobody is prepared to go beyond EFT and think outside of the 'cookie cutter box' and come up with the counter. Shame, but thats the current trend. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Sara Roeburn	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:30:00 - [18] Edited by: Sara Roeburn on 02/02/2008 17:31:56 Originally by: Mr Horizontal Either way, it's Caldari always seem to get more love than Gallente, however and the imbalance between Caldari and Gallente is growing every patch. Now the Deimos vs an Eagle is actually my main worry. OMFG Caldari rail ships might finally become useful and you are trying to claim there is some kind of growing imbalance? The imbalance is actually shrinking between the Hybrid platforms but you still have superior drone bays and much more damage output. And don't quote the range factor because EVEs pvp creates tactical situations where short range is most viable in anything except a fleet fight. So the main Caldari advantage is usually turned into a disadvantage because of long range weapons poor close range tracking and damage performance. When Caldari ships have drone bays 4 times larger than the Gallante ships with damage bonuses on most ships and pvp that suits their combat style better then you can claim Caldari are overpowered next to Gallante.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:34:00 - [19] Edited by: LUKEC on 02/02/2008 17:35:27 Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw. removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous. It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship. Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same. I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this. The whole "this ship pwns, this ship sucks, setup 4tw, setup 4tl" attitude is totally pointless in eve in 2007/08. It's totally irrelevant what ship you use and HOW YOU FIT IT it but how many ppl you have ganking around with you. Bottom line, flying ghetto blob 4tw. Bonus question: how long did it take for Farjung to figure out optimal vindicator setup?
Jacob Holland Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:37:00 - [20] Why? Because people seem to think that they need to compete in the areas they perceive as another's strengths. It's the same reason that people want Caldari speed boosted, because they believe that their Caracal needs to be fast enough to outrun a Thorax or a Rupture or they'll never compete with them. They forget the strengths they themselves have, in the example above their Caracal can be hitting the other ship from more than 100km out, even without speed mods the Caracal can add 15-20km to that as the Thorax closes. If you can't take hit them hard enough in that time to make them run away then (assuming equal skill) you should still have enough time to take them out before they finish you. Why? because you've used your strengths to your advantage and they haven't. Therefore you have people complaining that they can't match the tank of the Amarr, the speed of the Minmatar, the damage of the Gallente or the range of the Caldari. Of course making everything identical is the easiest way of making things fair (or making them be seen to be fair). -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Sara Roeburn	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Jacob Holland Why? Because people seem to think that they need to compete in the areas they perceive as another's strengths. It's the same reason that people want Caldari speed boosted, because they believe that their Caracal needs to be fast enough to outrun a Thorax or a Rupture or they'll never compete with them. They forget the strengths they themselves have, in the example above their Caracal can be hitting the other ship from more than 100km out, even without speed mods the Caracal can add 15-20km to that as the Thorax closes. If you can't take hit them hard enough in that time to make them run away then (assuming equal skill) you should still have enough time to take them out before they finish you. Why? because you've used your strengths to your advantage and they haven't. Therefore you have people complaining that they can't match the tank of the Amarr, the speed of the Minmatar, the damage of the Gallente or the range of the Caldari. Of course making everything identical is the easiest way of making things fair (or making them be seen to be fair). Problem is an Amarrs tanks is usefull and so is the Matari speed and so is the Gallante damage. What use is the 100km+ range on the Caracal? the Thorax still has a counter to that strategy and would just warp off but if the Caracal is caught in the Thoraxs tactical niche (which is 9 out of 10 EVE combat situations) the Caracal is simply screwed and has no counter. And if the Thorax was tackled and the Caracal was pounding on it from 100km what use is that really? Another close range ship would probably do the job much better at sub 20km ranges so why use the Caracal?
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:50:00 - [22] Amarr have the best tank, min the best speed, and gal the best dammage? Way to completely - and I mean completely - oversimplify eve to prove a point about the Caracal(lol).
Khorian Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:03:00 - [23] /signing this thread too. No change to the Deimos! ---
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:04:00 - [24] Edited by: General Coochie on 02/02/2008 19:05:03 Originally by: Sara Roeburn Originally by: Jacob Holland Why? Because people seem to think that they need to compete in the areas they perceive as another's strengths. It's the same reason that people want Caldari speed boosted, because they believe that their Caracal needs to be fast enough to outrun a Thorax or a Rupture or they'll never compete with them. They forget the strengths they themselves have, in the example above their Caracal can be hitting the other ship from more than 100km out, even without speed mods the Caracal can add 15-20km to that as the Thorax closes. If you can't take hit them hard enough in that time to make them run away then (assuming equal skill) you should still have enough time to take them out before they finish you. Why? because you've used your strengths to your advantage and they haven't. Therefore you have people complaining that they can't match the tank of the Amarr, the speed of the Minmatar, the damage of the Gallente or the range of the Caldari. Of course making everything identical is the easiest way of making things fair (or making them be seen to be fair). Problem is an Amarrs tanks is usefull and so is the Matari speed and so is the Gallante damage. What use is the 100km+ range on the Caracal? the Thorax still has a counter to that strategy and would just warp off but if the Caracal is caught in the Thoraxs tactical niche (which is 9 out of 10 EVE combat situations) the Caracal is simply screwed and has no counter. And if the Thorax was tackled and the Caracal was pounding on it from 100km what use is that really? Another close range ship would probably do the job much better at sub 20km ranges so why use the Caracal? The Caracal can deal any dmg type at 100km, its very useful. Ppl just can't see beyond the things that are commonly used. Don't fly the deimos myself, but was gonna start flying it soon. Oh well I guess it will be more intresting now coming up with a fit of my own.
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:11:00 - [25] Edited by: Julius Romanus on 02/02/2008 19:13:01 HAHA i just actually looked at it. 220dps @ 126k w/ CN scourge, boo hoo. At least flight time keeps it reasonable. (for reference thats more than the old 4x Heavy beam, 3x heat sink zealot put out at 100km)
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:13:00 - [26] Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 02/02/2008 19:12:57 the amount of deimos threads are OVER 9000!
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:22:00 - [27] the deimos was complete and utter **** before. Now it may only be crap, dunno haven't thought about it enough yet. However any change was a good one because the old deimos was completely useless is every scenario imaginable. And yes I do know how to play, better than you. PAK is recruiting!
Sara Roeburn	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:22:00 - [28] Originally by: Julius Romanus Edited by: Julius Romanus on 02/02/2008 19:13:01 HAHA i just actually looked at it. 220dps @ 126k w/ CN scourge, boo hoo. At least flight time keeps it reasonable. (for reference thats more than the old 4x Heavy beam, 3x heat sink zealot put out at 100km) The Caracal does do impressive damage at range but again whats the point when your target can just disengage? And I repeat that if the Target is tackled another ship that's suited for close range will do the job better. Range has a tactical counter IE ****offski but close range does not have many counters except for nano ships and most the time EVE combat is close range because of it being at gates or outside POS or stations. In the alliance tourney we saw Caracals really laying down some hurt but warping away like in real combat was not a factor in those fights. Im not complaining about the Caracal either im just pointing out that long range is not much of an advantage.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:23:00 - [29] This thread isn't about the Deimos I believe that a healthy game needs to have strong sense of uniqueness among the different ships. Things that differ a lot from each other are nearly impossible to balance and there is always pressure to make things balanced. But perfect balance is perfect equality, where everything is the same - it is boredom. I hope devs have the spirit and vision to increase diversity inspite of balance issues. Or at least preserve the current special things, such as nanoship tactics, MWD bonuses (very special bonus)
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:59:00 - [30] People need to get it into their thick skulls that imbalance != diversity, in fact it's quite the opposite, because everybody will just fly the same couple of 'uberships'. I am no supporter of this Deimos change, it is odd.... to put it mildly. I am a supporter of the Myrmidon and the Eos changes though, because: a) their uniqueness didn't go away (except their 'uberness') b) they were too powerful for their respective racial roles Diversity should come from racial characteristics (and certain bonuses maybe), but certainly not from imbalance. ---
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 20:46:00 - [31] yes, imbalance is not equal diversity. But diversity always implies imbalance. Need to try balance things without hurting diversity. Deimos MWD bonus change is one of those things that does very little for game balance while hurting game diversity.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.02.02 20:54:00 - [32] Originally by: Mr Horizontal /signed. First the Eos becoming totally ineffective. Then the Myrmidon made unable to take down a Drake when set up with the Drake's uber tank setup, and now a Deimos against a Zealot when it's even in range should be a fair fight! It's not the Zealot that's the problem now, it's the Eagle and all the sniper vessels that's the problem! FFS who's birdbrain thought that was a good idea?! Yes, Gallente have massive damage. But in equal measure they have NO RANGE to play with. Fighting Gallente Blaster Boats has always been a case of: if the Gallente ship gets in range, you die. If you keep it at range, they die. Simple. Effective. Fun. Predictable. Now people will try to use the Deimos as a Rail boat and snipering from a Deimos effectively renders this ship almost entirely useless. In fact it's so ridiculously LOL just saying it! So CCP: EITHER make Railguns more easily fitable on Gallente blasterboats, thus making Gallente proper Hybrid platforms vs just blaster platforms, OR leave them the hell alone, because you've just broken something that was 100% fine. If you MUST balance the Deimos it needs even higher resists or more base Armor (for the Eagle) and even higher damage (to maintain it's damage over the Zealot when in range) Either way, it's Caldari always seem to get more love than Gallente, however and the imbalance between Caldari and Gallente is growing every patch. Now the Deimos vs an Eagle is actually my main worry. How many Gallante ships are "worst in class"? Eos, perhaps? I can't think of many others. Of ANY others, in fact. I dunno, maybe the Exeq is the worst mining cruiser? Now, how many Caldari ships merit the "worst in class" title? Compare the lengths of these 2 lists before complaining that Caldari have gotten a couple of minor buffs lately. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Jacob Holland Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.02.02 21:52:00 - [33] Caldari worst in class... Raptor..? (not including the Moa and co because of the current changes). Best in class? How about the best EWar cruiser and the best long range cruiser, how about potentially the highest DPS BS, the longest range BS, the ONLY EWar BS..? How about the most effective high speed Interceptor? Diversity is what you make of it. Lets tweak my earlier example, let's make it ten Caracals and ten Thorax at 100km, yes the thoraxes can warp out but what does that gain them? they can death or glory it but they're unlikely to still have ships at the end of it. It doesn't look good on the killboards but it is important to note that forcing your opponent to retreat is a victory. If you force a fleet off a POS then either they lose a POS or you retain one. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
6Bagheera9 Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.02 23:40:00 - [34] This is a disturbing new trend that I few noticed with the proposed changes to armor EM and shield explosive resists. Note that I'm a Matari pilot and such a change would benefit me by making EMP more potent. CCP should start out by fixing the most straight forward stuff first rather than reinventing ships left and right. Here is my "Duh!" fix list. 1. Switch Jaguar and Wolf optimal/fall-off bonuses. 2. Boost lock range for the Claw. 21km with MAX skills. 3. Give the Myrmidon 100mb bandwidth, currently it has no more than the Vexor (75mb). 4. Overhaul tier 1 BCs: Currently obsolete compared to tier 2 Cyclone: +1 turret, General hp/cap boost Ferox: +1 turret, General hp/Cap boost, maybe more grid. Brutix: More grid (***** to fit with T1), more hp/cap Prophecy: More grid, more hp/cap (should have more base armor hp than the Harbinger.) 5. Switch Typhoon's base armor/shield hp FFS. 7lows and 4 mids = ARMOR tanker. There are probably a half-a-dozen other fixes out there, but these are the ones I'm most familiar and confident in. I leave it to others to bring up those I failed to mention.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ama-gi	Posted - 2008.02.02 23:51:00 - [35] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 5. Switch Typhoon's base armor/shield hp FFS. 7lows and 4 mids = ARMOR tanker. There are probably a half-a-dozen other fixes out there, but these are the ones I'm most familiar and confident in. I leave it to others to bring up those I failed to mention. Quickly removes the 3 Gyrostab, 3 Ballistic Controls from his low slots all kidding aside the OP as well as Bagheera9 both have some valid points. I hope that the fact they are in here and not on the devblog comment thread, means they will be read by devs. -- No love for the Matari
Hunter Vonnegut In terrorem KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 00:05:00 - [36] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: El Torrent deimos was fine, if used in its role (gank boat) Too bad no one used it. People like to nano ishtars instead. hm... not true, My nice polycarb faction fitted ishtar sees less flight time than my rigged t2 fitted deimos. Scram, release drones, orbit got very old very fast. The deimos imo, is a helluva a lot more fun to fly, because A) it does way more damage when fit correctly. B) There is a good chance that the guy that is about to web me may have some set up which may toast me very quickly. Which leads to my heart rate going up, which leads to excitment, which leads to fun. Honestly if I wanted to win every fight I got into I would rat.
Kristoffer Amarr Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2008.02.03 00:18:00 - [37] The current deimos is utter garbage and anyone who actually flies it as a blastership is living in 2005. The ship has been unable to gank since... what... the beginning of RMR with the HP buff? Its an overpriced pos that gets killed as soon as -anything- gets tossed in its direction. It needs a change.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.02.03 00:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Jacob Holland Caldari worst in class... Raptor..? (not including the Moa and co because of the current changes). Best in class? How about the best EWar cruiser and the best long range cruiser, how about potentially the highest DPS BS, the longest range BS, the ONLY EWar BS..? How about the most effective high speed Interceptor? Diversity is what you make of it. If you're talking t1, Raven is not the highest DPS BS. So to narrow it down: We have the best Ewar; our frig goes the fastest while doing 50 dps; our t3 BS can shoot farther; we have a "ewar" BS. Gal has the... highest dps cruiser; 2nd highest dps BS; Only "drone" BS; Best drone users; Highest dps BC (I havn't checked post Trinity, still beats my Drake though ). Min has the... highest dps BS; fastest HAC; fastest BC; fastest BS; Best webbers; Amarr has the... coolest looking ships; Lasers; idk what else, they can Neut I guess. Totally Caldari online IMO. I'm not really including the t2 battleships, massive ECM weakness hurts my eyes.
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.03 00:30:00 - [39] hey kiaeddz do you still fit lasers on your deimos
Polkageist	Posted - 2008.02.03 00:50:00 - [40] /thats a roger
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.03 03:48:00 - [41] Honestly, I wish they would just make every ship the same. That way everyone will KNOW that its THEIR OWN FAULT that they suck, and can't blame it on their race, ship, guns, etc. If you want to know why eve is making all ships the same, its people like Jonny JoJo, do what you can to stop them, as long as its legal. (Remember, its only illegal if you're caught) _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
AstroPhobic Minmatar Port Royal Independent Kontractors Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.03 04:09:00 - [42] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Min has the... highest dps BS; fastest HAC; fastest BC; fastest BS; Best webbers; Gallente has the highest dps BS by far (wtf are you smoking?) Don't even try to tell me the "fastest BC" and "fastest BS" is even an advantage.
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.02.03 04:18:00 - [43] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Don't even try to tell me the "fastest BC" and "fastest BS" is even an advantage. It is if you fit long range guns and can keep your opponent within your range but outside theirs ^_^ In PvE, it is quite possible to go up against multiple cruisers and battlecruisers in a Min battlecruiser and come out without having taken a single hit.
AstroPhobic Minmatar Port Royal Independent Kontractors Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.03 04:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Nekopyat Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Don't even try to tell me the "fastest BC" and "fastest BS" is even an advantage. It is if you fit long range guns and can keep your opponent within your range but outside theirs ^_^ In PvE, it is quite possible to go up against multiple cruisers and battlecruisers in a Min battlecruiser and come out without having taken a single hit. Battleships don't just go around and roam by themselves and run into other battleships roaming alone. At AB speeds, the difference is almost negligible. BS's don't usually hit top MWD speed either, it sucks too much cap. Same goes for BCs. They're gang ships. And Minmatar is the worst race for PvE.
Lil Mule	Posted - 2008.02.03 05:30:00 - [45] I have to say that this illustrates to me that I was correct in my earlier posts, that CCP has no idea or long term planning laid out for EVE ships, and overall ship combat and ship balance. They come up with ideas, and toss ships into the mix (ie: Destroyers, T2 frigates, Battleships were once referenced as capital ships, Battlecruisers) almost on the fly, and try to squeeze them in. Then after adding in the ships, they spend the next 6-8 months nerfing various ships very heavily, not examining the repurcussions of their nerfs, and then later, have to boost most of them back because they finally realize that they've nerfed them so bad that no one wants to fly them anymore and/or the ship is completely useless. On the other hand, I also have to say that I find these posts quite amusing too. Let me explain. Ive flown all of the races at a T2 level except Gallente. Never quite got around to them as my hands were full with the 3 other races. Since my time here at Eve, Ive witnessed nerf after nerf after nerf to Caldari and Amarr, to the point where many of the ships in both of those races were reduced to plain crap (Moa, Raven for PVP, Ferox, Eagle, Pilgrim, Curse, Zealot, any Amarr Cruiser, just about any Amarr BS). Ive witnessed boost after boost after boost to Minmatar (primarily) and Gallente. Could be that Im looking at this from a PVP perspective, because lets face it, Caldari always have been, and probably always will be the kings of PVE. However the number of SP to participate in PVE is significantly less than PVP - so I dont think its a valid point to look at which race is best at PVE (just simply train up Caldari BS to 2 or 3 and you'll be fine with a Raven). So, it is amusing, that for the longest time, all of the Gallente based pilots would flame the crap out of the Amarr pilots when the Amarr pilots would say that their ships cant compete on the battlefield. Now that there are two nerfs against the Gallente, they are out full force posting up a storm. Maybe now that you've had the experience with the Diemos, we can all evaluate more objectively about the impact of changes, and support fair and just changes for all ships, and not just demand boosts for the ships that we fly only. But then again, Im dreaming...... Flame on! ----------------------------------------------- People enjoy flying Amarr for the same reason they like being tied up in leather, whipped and called names
Zanon Xiu Dogs 0f War	Posted - 2008.02.03 05:40:00 - [46] am i the only one who read the ship dev blog and at the very end they say they are keeping a close eye, especially on the demios change?
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2008.02.03 06:04:00 - [47] Originally by: Sara Roeburn Problem is an Amarrs tanks is usefull and so is the Matari speed and so is the Gallante damage. No, no it is not. How useful do you think is speed for a hurricane when it can be webbed at 13 km? And that once webbed the nice drones of gallente will eat it alive while it is fighting at around x1 falloff even with barrage? Or vs missiles, where it'll get hit anyway? What, kite it at 20 km so that your ship has time to turn around (given its mass) to maintain range? And the dps will be what, 0ish? Close range is where fights happen. And currently mimatar ships have been nicely gimped thanks to heat because once you get webbed you can forget about range, and only one ship has a bonus to falloff. On battleships? I doubt they'll be alone. So yes, even on a 1v1 some minmatar ships have advantage, it'll get webbed pretty soon like the other battleships. And guess what. Your speed counts for 0 once you are webbed but the others damage and tanking bonuses do count for something. Your bonus depends on being able to react fast enough on something that is extremely sluggish. Vs caldari, speed & range do nothing at all. Vs other races, if you get too close you'll get webbed and play into their tanky game. If you fly far enough you'll get outdps due to being in their better range. And it's funny cause all these webs directly affect one of our supposed advantages. If this was supposed to **** with nanoships, hell, the right answer is to make sure that the ships that can go fast can kill the other ships that shouldn't be speeding around without having to constantly worry about whether the other nanos have a web on or not. Yes, I'm disappointed with current minmatar ships. I'm still very unhappy about heated webs.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.02.03 10:38:00 - [48] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 03/02/2008 10:44:43 Well yes, I agree. Some fundamental problems: * Damage bonus > everything else * Mixed weapon platforms = subpar * 4 med slots = mandatory, because MWD, Web, Scram and Cap Boost is mandatory Notice something? Weapon homogenization. Mid slot complaints. "Can't xyz get a damage bonus instead of zyx?". "Boo, xyz is crap / does no damage! (has no damage bonus)". Etc. Etc. I seems EVE and it's playerbase becomes increasingly narrow-minded. Or maybe some basic things are just not balanced/too good, and the devs can't change them, because it would invoke an epic whine-fest and many people 'would quit'. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Pesadel0 Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.03 10:45:00 - [49] Originally by: Prez21 Eve gets worse with every patch, and your right soonish we will be flying ships that perform exactly the same but just look slightly different and thats because the majority of the ppl who play eve nowadays have no idea how to fly there ships properly or fit them so they whine on the forums and because they make up a large amount of ccps income they are getting there own way most of the time. Complettly agreed ,people that came from wow ,trying to shift the balance ,or worse fenhal is a wow dev too? ------------------------------------------------------------------
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.02.03 10:47:00 - [50] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Min has the... highest dps BS; fastest HAC; fastest BC; fastest BS; Best webbers; Gallente has the highest dps BS by far (wtf are you smoking?) Don't even try to tell me the "fastest BC" and "fastest BS" is even an advantage. coughravencough Torp changes made it so that you can easily out-dps a T2 neutron-mega with a T2 torp-raven. Not only out-dps, UTTERLY out-dps. It isn't even comparable. Your looking at upwards to 200 more dps from the torps. Gallente blaster-boats used to be the highest dps battleships, now they are the second highest dps. Unfortunately they are still the closest range battleships. Torp raven can do more dps with over twice the range. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Ikonz Red.	Posted - 2008.02.03 11:41:00 - [51] I can't really add anything here. /signed
Sebroth	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:11:00 - [52] there are alot of ships I dont fly since I dont like them, deimos is one of them. but that doesnt mean it need to be changed!! we need more unique and strange ships, not less of them ----- Never knock on Death's door; ring the doorbell and run (he hates that)
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:13:00 - [53] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/02/2008 12:17:47 Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw. removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous. It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship. Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same. I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this. eve pvp has changed since rigs/nano and various other changes came in. Glass cannon Demios is still the 2006 mindset, not the 2008 one. Just stop playing eve like it was 2006 and you will see what a boost the demios got. In fact, without this demios boost, the demios would be confined to what the zealot used to be, which is obsolete hac. Fantastic work Zulupark on fixing this. Also remember that MWD is almost 100% certain to get nerfed. So dont count on using them anymore, as ships may be using afterburners soon after nano/mwd nerf. If pvp changes to Ab, then the demious ranks in the top hac category. Demios change is great, now it can fit cap booster and use repper. Sig locked, lack of Eve content
wierchas noobhunter Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:44:00 - [54] if u make all ships the same no one will ever whine .. get a clue guys tho there is no difference in ships when use them in blobs cos eve=blob transformers!! do u see them ?
wierchas noobhunter Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:46:00 - [55] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/02/2008 12:17:47 Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw. removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous. It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship. Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same. I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this. eve pvp has changed since rigs/nano and various other changes came in. Glass cannon Demios is still the 2006 mindset, not the 2008 one. Just stop playing eve like it was 2006 and you will see what a boost the demios got. In fact, without this demios boost, the demios would be confined to what the zealot used to be, which is obsolete hac. Fantastic work Zulupark on fixing this. Also remember that MWD is almost 100% certain to get nerfed. So dont count on using them anymore, as ships may be using afterburners soon after nano/mwd nerf. If pvp changes to Ab, then the demious ranks in the top hac category. Demios change is great, now it can fit cap booster and use repper. dude wtf if u would eve fly deimos u would know that its no only glass cannon now, its even will not have dps transformers!! do u see them ?
Ekuwy Oizoa Anthrax Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.03 14:09:00 - [56] Edited by: Ekuwy Oizoa on 03/02/2008 14:11:19 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/02/2008 12:17:47 Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw. removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous. It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship. Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same. I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this. eve pvp has changed since rigs/nano and various other changes came in. Glass cannon Demios is still the 2006 mindset, not the 2008 one. Just stop playing eve like it was 2006 and you will see what a boost the demios got. In fact, without this demios boost, the demios would be confined to what the zealot used to be, which is obsolete hac. Fantastic work Zulupark on fixing this. Also remember that MWD is almost 100% certain to get nerfed. So dont count on using them anymore, as ships may be using afterburners soon after nano/mwd nerf. If pvp changes to Ab, then the demious ranks in the top hac category. Demios change is great, now it can fit cap booster and use repper. Ok first of all, its Deimos. not: Originally by: Jonny JoJo demios demious or whatever. First of all, you have never flown a blastership before, so dont talk about it like this 'boost' is awesome. You, as an amarrian, may have a hard time to realise that more medslots doesnt equal a boost. Its a high dps, gankboat and the ship is balanced by its low hp. Its a boost for the wrong reasons, but gallente pilots will turn this absolutely into something positive. Im thinking: neutrons, dual shieldextenders or just one and a web, 3 magstabs and nano the rest of it. Why the **** would anyone wanna capinject a ship that kills its target in less than 30 seconds (or else the deimos dies). You cannot active tank a hac. Only the sacriledge is capable of this. And yeh, awesome a mwd nerf. We are all gonna swap to afterburners, cause a deimos getting in range slower = teh pwn.
Hunter Vonnegut In terrorem KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 16:19:00 - [57] Edited by: Hunter Vonnegut on 03/02/2008 16:20:14 Quote: Its a boost for the wrong reasons, but gallente pilots will turn this absolutely into something positive. Im thinking: neutrons, dual shieldextenders or just one and a web, 3 magstabs and nano the rest of it. Yeah so is this the new "2008" mindest huh? Nano everything? Why not just give every race a vagabond and make them different colors to distinguish them apart? That seems to be the goal of almost all new hac fits these days. I also do not understand why anyone would want to nano fit a blastership, yeah that LSE is going to definitely come in handy when you inevitably get webbed... Quote: Why the **** would anyone wanna capinject a ship that kills its target in less than 30 seconds (or else the deimos dies). You cannot active tank a hac. Only the sacriledge is capable of this Active tank on my deimos has worked for me plenty of times. I just never expected it to last longer than 45 seconds to a minute, but if things went as planned it didnt need to tank any longer.
Azirapheal Amarr The Bastards	Posted - 2008.02.03 16:26:00 - [58] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: El Torrent deimos was fine, if used in its role (gank boat) Too bad no one used it. People like to nano ishtars instead. really? im a fan of balls to the wall deimos's and thorax's always have been, to me the real problem stems from a drive to make eve safer than it used to be. too large a proportion of the playerbase is vocal in its whining to fix certain things, and FOTM has always drawn the developers wrath i fly gallente aswell as amarr and other stuff, and im not exactly wetting my pants with joy over this new "safer" deimos. it was and should allways be balls to the wall, tank or gank no compromise. i might start whining for lasers to be restored to their former glory if the nerfbat keeps falling like this imho, i want faster, more bloody fights, i want piracy to be viable. i dont want eve to edge closer to hello kitty online, unescape or WOW its what brought me to this game in the first place
Ikonz Blue.	Posted - 2008.02.11 19:06:00 - [59] bump
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.11 19:55:00 - [60] GIVE BACK THE MWD BONUS!!! SCREW TANK, ITS NOT A FLIPPING SOLO SHIP!!! ----------------- Friends Forever
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.11 20:08:00 - [61] I was going to post something, but don't really feel like writing it all up. So I'll just say, /signed. Too bad the balance guys don't play Eve. -Videos- Project:Gank -Guides- Pilgrim Guide
Ikonz Blue.	Posted - 2008.02.11 23:52:00 - [62] Originally by: Feng Schui Too bad the balance guys don't play Eve. .
Sinnbad Mayhem	Posted - 2008.02.12 02:18:00 - [63] Originally by: Feng Schui I was going to post something, but don't really feel like writing it all up. So I'll just say, /signed. Too bad the balance guys don't play Eve. Actually...(I can only speculate that they do But yes the change to the Deimos was probably not the best one. They should roll back this change. And get rid of them scripts too... S&M
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.12 02:23:00 - [64] Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw. removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous. It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship. Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same. I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this. Ok basically this is what happens to every mmo sooner or later,the masses whine because they feel"nerfed"why?Because they try to setup their ships like everybody elses and get blown up...Then they whine on the forums where everybody that tried the same thing then other people that fly that race but dont play the game finds that post and whines. It becomes into a movement and is accepted as fact,since they are paying customers the company changes the ships and you get this. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Ivan Kinsikor Amarr International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.12 07:20:00 - [65] It's like the Caracal pilots whining that their range is useless. God forbid someone gets the bright idea of just ganging up with someone else and letting the Caracal safely deliver decent DPS from a crazy ass long range away while the other guy stays in close and tackles. It's not like this is some novel idea here. People just need to get their heads out of their asses and stop wanting every boat to be a solo-pwnmobile. Killing is business and business is good.
Dinakheron	Posted - 2008.02.12 08:33:00 - [66] Originally by: Spenz Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Min has the... highest dps BS; fastest HAC; fastest BC; fastest BS; Best webbers; Gallente has the highest dps BS by far (wtf are you smoking?) Don't even try to tell me the "fastest BC" and "fastest BS" is even an advantage. coughravencough Torp changes made it so that you can easily out-dps a T2 neutron-mega with a T2 torp-raven. Not only out-dps, UTTERLY out-dps. It isn't even comparable. Your looking at upwards to 200 more dps from the torps. Gallente blaster-boats used to be the highest dps battleships, now they are the second highest dps. Unfortunately they are still the closest range battleships. Torp raven can do more dps with over twice the range. Blaster Domi... Most DPS of any t1 BS P.S Also Raven in its usuall PvP fit dont out DPS Mega.
Ivan Kinsikor Amarr International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.12 08:37:00 - [67] Edited by: Ivan Kinsikor on 12/02/2008 08:37:13 Originally by: Spenz Torp changes made it so that you can easily out-dps a T2 neutron-mega with a T2 torp-raven. Not only out-dps, UTTERLY out-dps. It isn't even comparable. Your looking at upwards to 200 more dps from the torps. Gallente blaster-boats used to be the highest dps battleships, now they are the second highest dps. Unfortunately they are still the closest range battleships. Torp raven can do more dps with over twice the range. This guys must obviously be the Eve master because EFT tells him so. Killing is business and business is good.
Augeas	Posted - 2008.02.12 10:26:00 - [68] Quote: Torp changes made it so that you can easily out-dps a T2 neutron-mega with a T2 torp-raven. Not only out-dps, UTTERLY out-dps. It isn't even comparable. Your looking at upwards to 200 more dps from the torps. Gallente blaster-boats used to be the highest dps battleships, now they are the second highest dps. Unfortunately they are still the closest range battleships. Torp raven can do more dps with over twice the range. Urgh. Clueless whining Gallenteasymoders.
Brother Welcome	Posted - 2008.02.12 12:10:00 - [69] Originally by: Prez21 Eve gets worse with every patch, and your right soonish we will be flying ships that perform exactly the same but just look slightly different and thats because the majority of the ppl who play eve nowadays have no idea how to fly there ships properly or fit them so they whine on the forums and because they make up a large amount of ccps income they are getting there own way most of the time. The difficulty in a pay-to-play game is that everyone would like to have the same chance to do well at each aspect of the game. People don't want to be worse at PvP 'just because'. That means the designers have to either devise multiple equally effective mechanisms, or keep moving the balance, or give everyone access to the same mechanisms. The ideal is obviously the first option, but unfortunately it's next to impossible to ensure no mechanic has an edge, and players are damned good at finding that edge. Continuously shifting the balance is what WoW and MtGO do. It has merits. Giving everyone access to the same mechanisms is what CCP is trying to avoid, but keeps skirting with. I believe that is due to the heavily baroque deterministic nature of Eve combat. Its very complexities thwart attempts to make X good in one way, and Y good in another. I think to avoid the problem you describe, CCP need to create a policy on balancing, which should either be that balance will keep shifting, or to divide the game into different styles of play and give one race mastery of some styles BUT at the same time allow players more freedom to adjust their characters to the style of play they presently favour.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.02.12 12:26:00 - [70] ITT Gallente tears I agree the Deimos change is imo ridiculous. But the others whining about the race in general are being ridiculous, especially about the Eos and the Myrm. Yes, ships have been changed, some nerfed and some buffed to be brought in line with others. Why? Because before many ships were so outclassed there was no reason to use them at all. Some ships have been made competitive, this makes for more variety. If you want to point fingers at the things removing variety from EVE look to the modules and rigs that have become must haves not to the ships. Two ship may seem rather similar (with the number of ships in EVE this is pretty much inevitable) but the ships at least have varying stats, slot layouts, and different bonused weapon systems. It's when everyone is flying around in the same few ships, with the same general set-up, and very similar required skill-sets, or simply when almost every PVP ship "must" fit a certain module that we need to worry about diversity. Not when a number of ships are brought up to par and made usable. If people insist on complaining about the variety displayed by the ships in EVE perhaps they should put forward balanced suggestions for changes instead of whining. That way we might actually get some constructive feedback that results in a better game, rather than demoralizing complaints about what is one of the most difficult aspects of MMO design.
Kira Pasisson Suicidal Intentions Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.02.12 14:30:00 - [71] yeah...give all ships in eve 1 tanking bonus and 1 damage bonus (or none at all)....than we are all equal, and btw. plz delete the skills, if everyone got the same skills and the same ships (why dont delete all ships except 1 :P ?) we will all be equally......BORED...maybe ccp should be careful not to nerf everything the whiners are calling for....maybe they are not those pilots who make eve special :P and maybe it would be better for the game to loose some whiners than to loose a few players who understand the game.....nothing to say against balancing really over-powered ships or boost underpowered ones, but 1. there are very few of them, 2. nerfing a ship is one thing, deleting its special role is another..... so please keep eve differenciated regards kira
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.02.12 18:04:00 - [72] Wow. t2 strawman.

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