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Braaage eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:26:00 - [1] Are Jump Freighters selling? I see an awful lot for sale throughout the sell forum with no bids on any of them. Do people see these ships as too much for what they are used for despite the coming changes? Is everyone of a view that the Rorqual is cheaper and therefor better to use for logistics (until it's nerfed)? -- eve-guides.com All about POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, EVE Database + much more!!
Braaage eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:26:00 - [2] Are Jump Freighters selling? I see an awful lot for sale throughout the sell forum with no bids on any of them. Do people see these ships as too much for what they are used for despite the coming changes? Is everyone of a view that the Rorqual is cheaper and therefor better to use for logistics (until it's nerfed)? -- eve-guides.com All about POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, EVE Database + much more!!
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:30:00 - [3] With supposed changes to BPCs in an upcoming patch, I imagine most people are holding out for cheaper ones. Rorquals will do for now.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:30:00 - [4] With supposed changes to BPCs in an upcoming patch, I imagine most people are holding out for cheaper ones. Rorquals will do for now.
Braaage eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:32:00 - [5] Edited by: Braaage on 07/02/2008 17:32:51 They wont get any cheaper though as the build is the same, cost of invention is only 200M. Unless the materials drop in price then a JF build will always be around the 4-5B mark to build. -- eve-guides.com All about POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, EVE Database + much more!!
Braaage eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:32:00 - [6] Edited by: Braaage on 07/02/2008 17:32:51 They wont get any cheaper though as the build is the same, cost of invention is only 200M. Unless the materials drop in price then a JF build will always be around the 4-5B mark to build. -- eve-guides.com All about POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, EVE Database + much more!!
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Braaage They wont get any cheaper though as the build is the same, cost of invention is only 200M. Unless the materials drop in price then a JF build will always be around the 4-5B mark. The materials will not drop in price any time soon but that doesn't stop people from waiting for market saturation to force prices towards build cost. Not to mention, most want to see just how CCP is going to try to nerf everything else to make JF's useful. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:34:00 - [8] Originally by: Braaage They wont get any cheaper though as the build is the same, cost of invention is only 200M. Unless the materials drop in price then a JF build will always be around the 4-5B mark. The materials will not drop in price any time soon but that doesn't stop people from waiting for market saturation to force prices towards build cost. Not to mention, most want to see just how CCP is going to try to nerf everything else to make JF's useful. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:46:00 - [9] Costs are not going to decrease with the upcoming patch. The only things being changed are the ships' stats and the possible number of runs on the BPC's. Increasing the possible number of runs may sound like it will reduce cost but you can only get more than 1 run if you use the decryptor that doesn't give the best ME and the build cost 4+B means ME is far more important. The stats on jump freighters will, however, be substantially improved so they should sell better after the patch. Not that I think there is much of a market for them but I made my case for that in the last JF thread. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Braaage eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:51:00 - [10] Maybe if this all jump freighters are getting a 25% base cargo capacity increase. was this all jump freighters are getting a 45% base cargo capacity increase. Then they would be worth it. -- eve-guides.com All about POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, EVE Database + much more!!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.07 18:12:00 - [11] It's going to take some time but JF's will eventually be considered necessary by a lot of people. You'll see almost every major 0.0 industrialist/supplier with them as well as many for corp ops. They do fill some unique rolls. Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.07 18:41:00 - [12] If they could not just jump into low sec from high sec but jump back, they would be worth every penny. Even without that they have their uses, I just don't see that large of a market. Not when you get 3 times the cargo space at 1/7 the cost using a standard freighter. If an alliance wants to do heavy logistics they use a combination of jump bridges, titans and freighter convoys, that covers the full range of activities and it does it for far less cost than JF's. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Montaire Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.07 19:07:00 - [13] On SiSi now : JF's take about 60 seconds to recharge from jump --> jump. At the top they have a 50% fuel reduction and a 350k cargo hold. The Future : The Rorqual's ability to 'haul' non-ore/ice products will be DESTROYED. Probably given a 250k ore/ice only bay. Jump Freighters demand will increase.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.07 19:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Montaire The Future : The Rorqual's ability to 'haul' non-ore/ice products will be DESTROYED. Probably given a 250k ore/ice only bay. I'm sorry but I haven't seen the dev's say anything about that. I don't suppose you have a link or two to go with your wild speculation? 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.02.07 19:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Kwint Sommer If an alliance wants to do heavy logistics they use a combination of jump bridges, titans and freighter convoys, that covers the full range of activities and it does it for far less cost than JF's. LOL! Yeah, a titan and sovereignty is a lot cheaper than a jump freighter. At 50bil for a titan and a nigh-impossible amount to put on sov for jump bridges, you'd need 2 freighters plus the titan to break even relative to a jump freighter, assuming an 8bil price tag on the JF. If you go down to build cost (4bil), you need 4 freighters plus the titan to break even relative to a JF; at a cost of 5 pilots + cynos to 1 pilot + cynos. Please post constructively. ~Saint
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.07 20:04:00 - [16] I'm not saying "buy a Titan and setup jump bridges, they're cheap logistics." They are expensive but they also have tremendous military uses, hence the big alliances already have both. Then consider that it's cheaper and in many cases easier to use those in conjunction with normal freighters than to acquire and use Jump Freighters. Further, the build cost of a Jump Freighter is 4-4.5B but to that you need to add the cost of invention which currently runs you about 1.2B for the best possible ME, including failure rates. So you're looking at close to 6B with 0 profit. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.07 20:09:00 - [17] Edited by: Shadarle on 07/02/2008 20:10:36 The cost to build doesn't really mean much. If you could re-sell the ship for 6 bil then that is the real cost of the ship. People need to realize purchase cost is meaningless and opportunity cost is everything. That said, suggesting a corp should just get a Titan and a few freighters and use jump bridges is a bit silly. Just get that 50+ bill ship... sure! The point is that if anyone else in that alliance needs to haul stuff as well then the JF is far more practical, especially if you are using the Titan for military purposes and still need to move supplies around quickly. Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.02.07 21:14:00 - [18] I honestly don't feel that jump freighters are too expensive considering what they do. I think the consumer has gotten a little bit smarter. It seemed like in the past the FOTM could sell for double or triple the build cost for an extended period fo time. I've just heard too many comments about people wanting to wait for the price to come down because they "know" it will. And by price coming down, i dont know if the build cost will decrease i just mean the price will reach closer to build cost. IMO, let those suckers sell their jf's for @ build cost or less because they don't have patience or don't udnerstand the market that they jumped into head first. ---------------------------------------------- Why do it the hard way when you can do it the AMARR way.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.07 21:34:00 - [19] If you have small-haul needs then the Rorqual's more than 100k m3 of capacity will do just fine. If you need to do massive logistics, you might as well load up a couple freighters and use the alliance's existing jump bridge or wait until the titan is available or a gang can be put together to escort you. Freighters hold at least 3 times as much, are much easier to train an alt for and cost much less. Combine them with the jump bridges and titans that every major alliance has and they're also easier to work with. I don't see how they replace freighters as the basic unit of alliance logistics. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.02.07 21:48:00 - [20] Err... Jump freighters aren't intended to supplant existing large Alliance logistics... They're so the little guys can keep up, because jump bridge + freighter + titan is overpowered, enough so to get somewhat nerfed once already. Please post constructively. ~Saint
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.07 21:50:00 - [21] So every alliance has jump bridges and titans... good to know! Also great that even the smaller members who need to transport things have complete access to both of these as well. I had no idea every alliance had access to these things. But alliance opss are only one of the many uses for JF's. They will obviously become much more widely spread as time goes on and as CCP nerfs other ships and upgrades JF's. Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.07 22:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Shadarle So every alliance has jump bridges and titans... good to know! Also great that even the smaller members who need to transport things have complete access to both of these as well. I had no idea every alliance had access to these things. Yes, every single one, even the alliances made of just a pair of 1-man alt corps....that's exactly what I meant. I'm sorry but are we playing semantic games or are we discussing the market? My point was major alliances already have those things, I even think I used the adjective "major" in several of my earlier posts. The small ones generally have very limited territory in which case you don't need to jump your stuff around, a normal freighter will do. Basically it's just those operating high volume operations in low sec that don't have the personnel to guard a freighter as it jumps around. That small group includes me and my reactors but we won't supply significant longterm demand. There can only be so many of us and once we all have jump freighters the demand and thus market is gone. Basically I see jump freighters as a niche item that while usable across 0.0 is only the best option for a select few in low sec, combine that with the fact that they rarely ever get killed and it's userbase doesn't grow much and the long term profitability of producing them goes to 0. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.07 23:08:00 - [23] If it means anything, Dusk Blade will probably be in the market for a JF in the future. Improve Market Competition!
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.07 23:21:00 - [24] Edited by: FastLearner on 07/02/2008 23:25:23 Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: Shadarle So every alliance has jump bridges and titans... good to know! Also great that even the smaller members who need to transport things have complete access to both of these as well. I had no idea every alliance had access to these things. Yes, every single one, even the alliances made of just a pair of 1-man alt corps....that's exactly what I meant. I'm sorry but are we playing semantic games or are we discussing the market? My point was major alliances already have those things, I even think I used the adjective "major" in several of my earlier posts. The small ones generally have very limited territory in which case you don't need to jump your stuff around, a normal freighter will do. Basically it's just those operating high volume operations in low sec that don't have the personnel to guard a freighter as it jumps around. That small group includes me and my reactors but we won't supply significant longterm demand. There can only be so many of us and once we all have jump freighters the demand and thus market is gone. Basically I see jump freighters as a niche item that while usable across 0.0 is only the best option for a select few in low sec, combine that with the fact that they rarely ever get killed and it's userbase doesn't grow much and the long term profitability of producing them goes to 0. Have to disagree with you here. The only dangerous part of moving goods to deep 0.0 is the jump from high-sec into low-sec - and that's what JFs are great for. Yes - it could be done using a normal freighter - but then every time you want to move stuff you have to provide a proper escort, even if it's just for the one jump in before Titan-bridging onwards. Not all major alliances live right next to high-sec: to escort a freighter in through our nearest route means a 20-jump each way for an escort - which has to be strong enough to handle a sizable gate camp which will quite likely have capital ships available. Someone with a JF can do that on their own with just a cyno alt. And having moved the goods into low-sec in a JF there's no real reason to then mess around transferring it via a corp hangar to a normal freighter to titan-bridge the rest of the way. It's that entry into low-sec which is where we're using JFs. Once the goods get to our own space then obviosuly the distribution can be done using a normal freighter and the jump portal network. And the JF can get back into high-sec safely on it's own as well - the only requirement for this is to have a well-armed POS in the low-sec adjacent to high-sec. Cyno to POS, set destination to high-sec, initiate warp and hit AP soon as you enter warp. Sure - the fuel cost of JF transport is higher than using rorquals or JBing with a Titan - but to look at that in isolation is to ignore the fact that you're changing a 1-player job into one requiring a whole fleet for a signifcant period of time. JFs are also useful for refuelling 0.0 POS which aren't on the jump-portal network. Titan-bridging a ship there to fuel a POS is inefficeint. Moving a freighter through normal jump-gates is slow and risky. Right now, rorquals work out cheaper in fuel - but if they can't carry all the goods in 1 load then you seriously need to start assessing how much of your time the small cost difference is worth. EDIT: and re the "major" alliance thing. Our alliance is well over 2K members with outposts a jump bridge network etc. Yet we have a bunch of JFs already - and are getting more all the time. Most of us would rather pay a bit extra to have things painlessly JFed in than have to endure countless escort ops just to move stuff in and out.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.07 23:32:00 - [25] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 07/02/2008 23:33:46 Quote: Have to disagree with you here. The only dangerous part of moving goods to deep 0.0 is the jump from high-sec into low-sec - and that's what JFs are great for. Yes - it could be done using a normal freighter - but then every time you want to move stuff you have to provide a proper escort, even if it's just for the one jump in before Titan-bridging onwards ^^ This is why Dusk Blade may invest in one. It may see a ressurection of my old POS days, where the only risk was the high-sec-low-sec jump. For solo/small corps engaging in low/0.0 sec operations, a jump freighter is going to be damn useful. I'm not a miner, and I won't focus my skills on it, so a rorqual is out of the question. EDIT: Why does this trigger a resurrection of my POS days? Coz my major issue was fueling them. I could only fit half a weeks fuel to ninja in through gatecamps in my crane or bustard. So it took two-three concentrated hours twice a week. with a JF, it's almost a 30 minute operation to haul several weeks worth of fuel. Plus they can have a fuel capacity of two weeks. Fantastic :) Improve Market Competition!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.08 00:08:00 - [26] Originally by: FastLearner you're changing a 1-player job into one requiring a whole fleet for a signifcant period of time. This was going to be the gist of my reply, so instead I'll just ditto this. Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Braaage Edited by: Braaage on 07/02/2008 17:32:51 They wont get any cheaper though as the build is the same, cost of invention is only 200M. Unless the materials drop in price then a JF build will always be around the 4-5B mark to build. QFT - well... maybe 300M but yeah - putting the gist back into logistics
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:46:00 - [28] The invention cost is not 300M unless the success rate jumped to 100% recently. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.09 09:03:00 - [29] yeah... currently i prefer selling my copies aswell instead of inventing with them. - putting the gist back into logistics
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises Space Exploration and Logistic Services	Posted - 2008.02.09 10:28:00 - [30] The simple fact is that (and I have an Anshar in the oven atm too) people (wrongly IMHO) asked for a changed to the invented runs on BPCs so that decryptors have an effect and have now been promised it. Thus there is some rather incredible expectation that it will bring prices down. It will for a short time only because silly people will unload the over production that will occur some 3-4 weeks after the patch that changes it. However, JF cost is far more driven by the Advanced Component cost - there will be a massive spike in the market and any savings that appear due to the actual invention cost coming down will dissapear instantly in the cost to prduce given sub-standard ME figures. At ME-1 the T2 components for an Anshar are now about 3b alone - factor in the Obelisk, Jump Engines and sundries and you approach 4.5b before considering the T2 BPC price. People who are waiting to buy and think of a saving might get lucky - but they might not! Next Anshar 2 weeks.

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