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Po3tank	Posted - 2008.02.09 04:52:00 - [1] Assault frigs need some love give them immunity to WEBS make them a viable pvp ship As it stand almost anything can kill Assault frigs, except T1 frigs and destroyers
Franconis Gallente True Foundation R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.02.09 04:55:00 - [2] Learn to fly a better ship. Also, a buddy of mine does very well in a harpy (Kills HACs/BCs etc) so AFs are not useless.
Garmon Minmatar Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.02.09 05:09:00 - [3] Originally by: Franconis Learn to fly a better ship. Also, a buddy of mine does very well in a harpy (Kills HACs/BCs etc) so AFs are not useless. Then those HACs/BCs are ******s
NoNah	Posted - 2008.02.09 05:10:00 - [4] Originally by: Po3tank Assault frigs need some love give them immunity to WEBS make them a viable pvp ship As it stand almost anything can kill Assault frigs, except T1 frigs and destroyers Any ship can kill any ship, short of capitals. AF's are subpar, but giving them webimmunity is just way way way to much. Especially when you start considering having them orbiting at 3km/s at 500m, dealing 300 dps each. For 30 mil a piece ships!? Postcount: 125657
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.09 05:52:00 - [5] Originally by: NoNah AF's are subpar, but giving them webimmunity is just way way way to much. Especially when you start considering having them orbiting at 3km/s at 500m, dealing 300 dps each. For 30 mil a piece ships!? WTB assault frigate orbiting at 500m doing 3km/s dealing 300dps. I'd even pay 60mill, any sellers?
Shereza	Posted - 2008.02.09 05:53:00 - [6] I don't think web immunity would be all that good a thing for assault ships. I do believe, however, that replacing the fake resistance bonuses with the original T1 bonuses would be a possible help. From what I understand the fake bonuses used to "give" the ships their "assault" class resistance bonuses were put into place because the devs felt that an assault ship with 4 real bonuses and "assault" class resistances would be overpowered. Well, as it turns out it seems that assault ships are the only T2 combat ships without a T2 resistance bonus. Even interdictors/interceptors get a 10% (flat) bonus to one of their armor and shield resistances. Yet if you take away the per level resistance bonuses on standard assault ships you're left with T1 resistances. You know, I'm sure it won't "fix" the "problem" with assault ships but maybe starting there and giving the ships real T2 combat ship resistance bonuses would be a start in the right direction. ____________________ Behold the universal power of duct tape.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.02.09 06:02:00 - [7] Quit trying to make the ship have lame arse roles. Its mass is gross try aligning during a gatecamp when your used to frig class ships. Its missing in every AF its CORE T1 base skill. I fly T1's and T2's of the models its very noticable. If they decide after those fixes they need a role bonus so be it but these attempts at just role bonus are not going to fix anything.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.09 06:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Corstaad Quit trying to make the ship have lame arse roles. Its mass is gross try aligning during a gatecamp when your used to frig class ships. Its missing in every AF its CORE T1 base skill. So true, one of the primary problems is they handle like cows, not to mention accelerating takes ages. Seriously if they get 110-115% mass of their t1 counterparts, built-in resistance and their missing bonus they'd still suck for their price. As for a role bonus, I really like the idea of the AB bonus, make it so they get the same speed boost from ABs as they currently get from MWDs, this would at least give them a bit survivability in web range.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.02.09 07:02:00 - [9] I resolved myself to make a Jag my solo roamer. That said I'm borderline on rp flying it.
Jaja binx	Posted - 2008.02.09 07:53:00 - [10] I have killed most thing's in my Jaguar solo... Just learn to fly it and get the right skills, you will notice, as a cheap ship it's amazing. Killed a cruiser and battle cruiser last night in about 20 minutes time period. When you get ganged up on in it, it's easy to get out of the mess as well. Please, don't try to make this a scout boat, just learn to use it mate ;)
Saint Bubba Minmatar Pastry Coalition Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.09 07:55:00 - [11] That's my alt ^^ sorry, posted with the wrong char :P Originally by: Sakura Nihil That being said, the PvP Force is strong in this one, I forsee a good future full of whining carebears and jealous PvPers crushed under his heels .
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:10:00 - [12] Its solo we know that but a rifter can do it as well. The Deal we need to make it better then a rifter. In almost every case you'll see a AF Aginst a compent opponet will die much the same as a T1 frig. The T2 variant of it is garbage is loses it base stats.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Garmon Originally by: Franconis Learn to fly a better ship. Also, a buddy of mine does very well in a harpy (Kills HACs/BCs etc) so AFs are not useless. Then those HACs/BCs are ******s I concur
Saint Bubba Minmatar Pastry Coalition Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:24:00 - [14] Edited by: Saint Bubba on 09/02/2008 08:24:33 Originally by: Corstaad Its solo we know that but a rifter can do it as well. The Deal we need to make it better then a rifter. In almost every case you'll see a AF Aginst a compent opponet will die much the same as a T1 frig. The T2 variant of it is garbage is loses it base stats. Can I have your kill/loss ratio with a Rifter and a Jaguar please? What were you killing with both, I did nothing but use these two ships for a while (6 months - 8 months). If you can't see a difference then you need a lesson on how to fit :P 5 Drones tanking, both can technically but one with no difficulty, Shield tank vs armor tank ;) DPS MWD vs afterburner. Originally by: Sakura Nihil That being said, the PvP Force is strong in this one, I forsee a good future full of whining carebears and jealous PvPers crushed under his heels .
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:30:00 - [15] Originally by: Jaja binx I have killed most thing's in my Jaguar solo... Just learn to fly it and get the right skills, you will notice, as a cheap ship it's amazing. Killed a cruiser and battle cruiser last night in about 20 minutes time period. When you get ganged up on in it, it's easy to get out of the mess as well. Please, don't try to make this a scout boat, just learn to use it mate ;) You were fighting chumps I say!
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:33:00 - [16] Use the internet if you need stats. That said AF is not like orginal T1 we fly.
Saint Bubba Minmatar Pastry Coalition Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Corstaad Use the internet if you need stats. That said AF is not like orginal T1 we fly. Your talking a bit out of your ass here buddy, I asked you questions, I know the answers to them, it was a bit rhetorical ;) Originally by: Sakura Nihil That being said, the PvP Force is strong in this one, I forsee a good future full of whining carebears and jealous PvPers crushed under his heels .
Jaja binx	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Jaja binx I have killed most thing's in my Jaguar solo... Just learn to fly it and get the right skills, you will notice, as a cheap ship it's amazing. Killed a cruiser and battle cruiser last night in about 20 minutes time period. When you get ganged up on in it, it's easy to get out of the mess as well. Please, don't try to make this a scout boat, just learn to use it mate ;) You were fighting chumps I say! Then it look's like all I can find is chumps in eve
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:45:00 - [19] Just that you managed to kill a BC in a Jaguar doesn't prove they are good at killing them, it proves you found a pilot who doesn't know how to fit his ship (and is probably around 2 weeks old). I killed / ransomed a few BCs in my Jaguar too without taking any significant damage, but the pilots were not prepared for the fight.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:54:00 - [20] I don't want to get in a ******** EFT discussion, the AF needs a serious revamp. To tell me your AF does great in a fight with overwhelming circumstance means NOTHING. Hehe thats a good Mad Money plug.
xHUN73R	Posted - 2008.02.09 10:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Seriously if they get 110-115% mass of their t1 counterparts, built-in resistance and their missing bonus they'd still suck for their price. Well,this wouldn't work,cuz HACs are lighter and faster than their T1 counterparts. AFs also have CPUand gri problems,so they cannot fit proper tank+gank and mostly - they have rediculous capacitorto use,even with AB. The problem with giving them the speed they need is thatif you have an AF doing 5k and massive dmg the inceptors like taranis and crow will become useless.
Squatdog DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.02.09 11:10:00 - [22] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Po3tank Assault frigs need some love give them immunity to WEBS make them a viable pvp ship As it stand almost anything can kill Assault frigs, except T1 frigs and destroyers Any ship can kill any ship, short of capitals. AF's are subpar, but giving them webimmunity is just way way way to much. Especially when you start considering having them orbiting at 3km/s at 500m, dealing 300 dps each. For 30 mil a piece ships!? Are we playing the same game here? ...and no, no Assault Frigate is going to burn down an AFK passive Drake healing back 150DPS with 60+ resists.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.09 12:03:00 - [23] Originally by: xHUN73R Originally by: Lilith Velkor Seriously if they get 110-115% mass of their t1 counterparts, built-in resistance and their missing bonus they'd still suck for their price. Well,this wouldn't work,cuz HACs are lighter and faster than their T1 counterparts. Yes, HACs are lighter and faster than their t1 counterparts. Thats exactly where the logic with AFs being clumsy cows fails, they should be nearly as fast and agile as the t1 variants. Why the t2 cruisers are called HACs while being lighter than the t1 ones is beyond me btw, should be called light assault cruisers but thats not the point here. Quote: AFs also have CPUand gri problems,so they cannot fit proper tank+gank and mostly - they have rediculous capacitorto use,even with AB. Yes, some have also fitting issues, well capacitor I don't know, with AB it seems not that bad really. Quote: The problem with giving them the speed they need is thatif you have an AF doing 5k and massive dmg the inceptors like taranis and crow will become useless. Interceptors have a much higher base speed than AFs, no one is asking to make them faster than interceptors and they won't be.
Arazel Chainfire	Posted - 2008.02.09 16:54:00 - [24] The reason why the AF's are heavier while HAC's are lighter (compared to the base ship they came from) is because if AF's were made lighter they would start encroaching on interceptor's territory too much. HAC's can get away with it because there is no interceptor type ship at the HAC level. That being said, AF's really need some work, and giving them a real 4th bonus would be a great place to start. -Arazel
Avery Fatwallet	Posted - 2008.02.09 17:06:00 - [25] maybe trying a "5% reduction to speed reduction from webs" (:P) bonus on certain ships would show interesting and maybe even desirable results?
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.02.09 17:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Franconis Learn to fly a better ship. Also, a buddy of mine does very well in a harpy (Kills HACs/BCs etc) so AFs are not useless. lol...stop lying.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.09 17:11:00 - [27] Give AF's a damage bonus against bigger ships
Ishan Mons Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:55:00 - [28] well currently AFs are slower than their HAC counterparts with both of the only running a AB/MWD... nevermind the ability to fit more nano/stabs/ODs and slower than a cruiser size ship definitely isnt encroaching on Interceptor territory ------------------------ Infrared = heat = thermal Infrared crystals = less therm more EM I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS! Reach in front of a 10watt CO2 laser some time you'll get it...
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Arazel Chainfire The reason why the AF's are heavier while HAC's are lighter (compared to the base ship they came from) is because if AF's were made lighter they would start encroaching on interceptor's territory too much. HAC's can get away with it because there is no interceptor type ship at the HAC level. I get your point but tbh it makes no sense to me why hac's are t3 interceptors right now while af's are like t1.5 frigates.. but meh i gave up all hope about this game making more sense someday already *Warning! Sig ahead!* Bounty: Jonny JoJo
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:50:00 - [30] Edited by: MenanceWhite on 09/02/2008 19:50:18 Currently: AF costs up to 30 times their t1 counterparts HAC costs up to 15 times their t1 counterparts AF are both slower and heavier compared to t1 (some has both higher mass AND inertia mod) HAC are faster and lighter compared to t1 (turns at about same due to increased inertia mod) AF barely more firepower compared to t1 HAC alot more firepower compared to t1 AF does not retain t1 ship bonus. Uses up a bonus in form of added resists HAC retains t1 ship bonus, additional resist bonis are worked into hull HAC has a much larger cargo than t1 AF only has slightly larger cargo(sometimes no difference) compared to t1 HAC has slightly higher sig radius compared to t1 AF has slightly less sig radius compared to t1 I think a buff is in order. Right now AFs are nothing more than a frig that's slow like hell and tanks somewhat better. Outperformed by a cruiser that's both insureable and at half the pricetag, of course. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:55:00 - [31] Originally by: Garmon Originally by: Franconis Learn to fly a better ship. Also, a buddy of mine does very well in a harpy (Kills HACs/BCs etc) so AFs are not useless. Then those HACs/BCs are ******s No kidding - any hac or BC that can't perma tank the maybe 200 or so dps a REALLY REALLY gankie AF can put out sucks at life.
Admiral Pieg Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.09 21:53:00 - [32] Originally by: Franconis Learn to fly a better ship. Also, a buddy of mine does very well in a harpy (Kills HACs/BCs etc) so AFs are not useless. Who is this buddy? Id love a killboard link as this is a pretty awesome achievment. Anyway, jokes aside, i love AF's as much as the next guy but asking for immunity against webs is pretty stupid, it would make them ridiculously overpowered.. id rather have a cap bonus for mwd's or additional slots or something.. ______________ Pod from above.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.10 02:18:00 - [33] Originally by: Arazel Chainfire The reason why the AF's are heavier while HAC's are lighter (compared to the base ship they came from) is because if AF's were made lighter they would start encroaching on interceptor's territory too much. HAC's can get away with it because there is no interceptor type ship at the HAC level. This is partially true, still you'll be very hard pressed to get them to fulfill the interceptor role, and every vanilla interceptor will do it much better with ease. If we look at HACs, some of them already partially obsolete interceptors, since they can do the tackling themselves with the speed advantage they get. And even if I could get the Jaguar (which is the only AF I can really see getting into inty territory) to perform as interceptor, I'd still choose Stiletto or Claw since they do the job much much better. A mass reduction should be done carefully, but imho going to 110-115% of the original mass of the t1 counterpart would be perfectly fine, every AF would have higher mass than the interceptors while at the same time they have a lower base speed, resulting in much higher top speeds for the interceptors. Quote: That being said, AF's really need some work, and giving them a real 4th bonus would be a great place to start. They need the missing t1 bonus, but still without some sort of solution to the 'handling issue' I fear this wouldn't help them a bit. There are 2 things that have been discussed a lot of times already, either giving them a bonus to afterburners to get those on par with microwarpdrives (together with a slight mass reduction to improve handing), or partial immunity to webifiers (15% per AF level maybe, no mass reduction here), which both would solve the problem of survivability in close range. Neither of those propositions would render them invulnerable to larger ships, but help them fulfill their role properly.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.02.10 03:52:00 - [34] Of course the core issue's of the ship needs to be addressed but of all the "role" idea's I liked the mini command ship role. I think it would open up the small gang PvP.
Mickey Simon Esoteric Industries	Posted - 2008.02.10 11:23:00 - [35] This thread kinda makes me sad =P I'm a new player who's almost finished training to Assault Ships [should be able to undock them in around 3/4 hours with any luck] and have been trying to find out what skills I should be learning next in order to begin being able to fly them properly. Is it worth me spending time learning how to fly the Hawk I just purchased? Or should I just start training for HAC's as by the looks of things my Hawk doesn't perform as well as other T2 ships do in comparison to their T1 variants QQ. Having said, my opinion may change after flying it for a bit, but we'll see.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.10 16:30:00 - [36] Originally by: Jaja binx I have killed most thing's in my Jaguar solo... Just learn to fly it and get the right skills, you will notice, as a cheap ship it's amazing. Killed a cruiser and battle cruiser last night in about 20 minutes time period. When you get ganged up on in it, it's easy to get out of the mess as well. Please, don't try to make this a scout boat, just learn to use it mate ;) If it's so uber, try to kill a competently flown cruiser (which has the same loss cost as a Jaguar). I'll give you 10M if you kill my classic 220mm AC II + HAM rupture with it, or kill it with any AF for that matter, and no, I'm not even close to perfect skills for the ship. Everything works for killing noobs. AFs need a fix, primarily fixing their mass, since they handle worse then destroyers on average, and quite certainly need their fourth bonus, some of them badly need fittings (Wolf having the same base CPU as a Rifter is especially LOL) before we can even talk about roles of any sort. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Daphne Oboe	Posted - 2008.02.10 16:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Mickey Simon This thread kinda makes me sad =P I'm a new player who's almost finished training to Assault Ships [should be able to undock them in around 3/4 hours with any luck] and have been trying to find out what skills I should be learning next in order to begin being able to fly them properly. Is it worth me spending time learning how to fly the Hawk I just purchased? Or should I just start training for HAC's as by the looks of things my Hawk doesn't perform as well as other T2 ships do in comparison to their T1 variants QQ. Having said, my opinion may change after flying it for a bit, but we'll see. AFs are my favorite ships to fly, personally. Yeah, they aren't that great, but they're a lot of fun, and that's why I play the game. You can still have a lot of fun in one and be useful if you stick to group pvp - especially frigate gangs, where they're the main dps output (granted frigate gangs seem to be rare these days).
White Ronin	Posted - 2008.02.10 18:45:00 - [38] i just wish I could mount a recon probe launcher on mine as that would give it a great purpose for me in pvp and pve. An armoured/tanked scout role would be great for af's. But you cant even mount partial gear to do anythinig cuase the cpu and pg is crap.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.02.10 19:02:00 - [39] The post above highlights the fact that AFs are generally one of the first t2 ships that new players skill up for. How about an "ISk-buff"? Radically reduce the production costs so that they can be sold profitably for about 4-5M each. Sure, they're not that good, but add a small mass reduction and agility boost (5% each) to take the edge off the main problem with them, and you have a range of great, cheap introductory T2 ships for newer players. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.02.10 21:00:00 - [40] Originally by: Malcanis The post above highlights the fact that AFs are generally one of the first t2 ships that new players skill up for. How about an "ISk-buff"? Radically reduce the production costs so that they can be sold profitably for about 4-5M each. Sure, they're not that good, but add a small mass reduction and agility boost (5% each) to take the edge off the main problem with them, and you have a range of great, cheap introductory T2 ships for newer players. Interesting theory I guess. I don't ever expect to see an AS become some sort of uber PvP ship regardless, but giving it the 4th bonus and reducing the investment cost would go a long way to making them more attractive for the job. If I were to pick a single bonus that I think they should get it would be an afterburner speed bonus but that's just me. There are lots of good ideas about how to "fix" afrigs - but the problem isn't that they're fundamentally broken, simply that there are other ships that can do the job they do better, or ships that can do it almost as well for less ISK risk. Some of the ideas bandied about are actually faily insane (web immunity could easily make them overpowered as an example), but ideas like ab bonuses, mass reductions, a real fourth bonus, some form of role bonus and the like could make them an attractive prospect for PvP.
Hori To NorCorp Security eXceed.	Posted - 2008.02.10 21:39:00 - [41] what about an AB bonus, that makes the AB and MWD equal in speed on these ships? would make them fast, deadly and small, just like they should be.
evilminge	Posted - 2008.02.11 11:45:00 - [42] well its been quoted already but its impossible to kill a well flown crusier in some of these af's and thats kinda annoying. myself (20mill sp) flying a wolf t2 everything shadow serp hardeners and a 400mm plate. gistii b AB . vs a thorax 2007.11. player. engaged, he launched t2 hammerheads. and i knew it wasnt gonna happen. set to on his drones killed a couple pretty qick. but he closed the gap between us. (i was webbed obviously) and he just kept putting the drones away. i took no more than a quater of his armour before i died. now iv tried the arty fit too but that aint great either. just doesnt seem worth flying imo. the only thing the wolf was ever good for was running the old static complexs that dropped faction loot. i love my jaguar too. wicked little shield tank for a frigate. but lacks the killer dps and survivability. i know they aint pwn mobiles but they just have no use at all personally id like to see them boosted A LOT ! there such interesting little things. id like to see changes made to make these things to make them AT least capable of beating a ceptor. crows laugh at all af's especially the minmatar variety ( wasnt it minmatar that was supposed to have the fast ships :/)
Ch Tang	Posted - 2008.02.11 12:27:00 - [43] Originally by: Mickey Simon I'm a new player who's almost finished training to Assault Ships [should be able to undock them in around 3/4 hours with any luck] and have been trying to find out what skills I should be learning next in order to begin being able to fly them properly. Here's one problem to me. Flying the AF and then thinking about which skills to train next. Should be train all skills that you need then train AF skill.
Sean Faust	Posted - 2008.02.11 17:50:00 - [44] Edited by: Sean Faust on 11/02/2008 17:50:56 AF's from what I can tell are ships that were designed for solo pvp/piracy. They bring practically nothing to a gang but, 1v1, do quite well on their own. They do, however, need some love. 1. Give them a role bonus that increases the speed bonus they get from ABs to near that of an MWD. They don't have the cap to support an MWD really and the increased sig radius would make one go pop in a heartbeat. 2. Give the retribution a second mid slot. If they really are meant for this role then it fails in that role because it needs something else to tackle for it. 3. All their bonuses should read like this: T1 frigs bonus = the bonuses from the actual t1 ships Assault ships bonus: additional damage bonus to the t1 bonus (except for the ishkur which would retain its drone bonus) and decreased sig radius, though not nearly as much as an inty. Perhaps 3% per level? 4. Fix their mass. 5. Work the so-called resistance bonuses into the hull like all other t2 ships that exist in the game. That is all.
Haradgrim The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.02.11 18:48:00 - [45] 3 Roles that AFs are currently very effective at: 1) Anti-drone support: - Stupidly high scan resolution, very good against small targets, the Harpy for example; will 1 volley t1 drones while being able to lock them almost instantly. 2) Fast-Tackle that will survive tackling Inties, EAS, Dictors, and other AFs: - Once again the stupidly high scan resolution comes in mighty handy, the non-remote sensor booster solution for tackling fast ships in low sec, and perfect for non-bubble 0.0 gate camps 3) Cloaking fast tackle - If you fit a cloak and some sensor boosters with resolution scripts you can actually have a better scan resolution than before the cloak. Perfect for locking and tackling ships in hostile territory, or for Stealth Bomber gangs. In summary: USE THE REDICULOUS SCAN RESOLUTION TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!!! For all of you people complaining about AFs not fullfilling their role, you may want to look at their stats and think about what that role is. Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.02.11 19:06:00 - [46] Originally by: Haradgrim 3 Roles that AFs are currently very effective at: 1) Anti-drone support: - Stupidly high scan resolution, very good against small targets, the Harpy for example; will 1 volley t1 drones while being able to lock them almost instantly. 2) Fast-Tackle that will survive tackling Inties, EAS, Dictors, and other AFs: - Once again the stupidly high scan resolution comes in mighty handy, the non-remote sensor booster solution for tackling fast ships in low sec, and perfect for non-bubble 0.0 gate camps 3) Cloaking fast tackle - If you fit a cloak and some sensor boosters with resolution scripts you can actually have a better scan resolution than before the cloak. Perfect for locking and tackling ships in hostile territory, or for Stealth Bomber gangs. In summary: USE THE REDICULOUS SCAN RESOLUTION TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!!! For all of you people complaining about AFs not fullfilling their role, you may want to look at their stats and think about what that role is. Don't forget pod ransoms! __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Tozz Velvet Underground Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.11 20:22:00 - [47] Give them the 2nd t1 bonus .. it is missing!
Hrin Minmatar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:37:00 - [48] This topic comes up weekly in here. You can do a search if you doubt me. Basically, AFs are fun, but terribly useless if compared to their cruiser counterparts. We really really want AFs to be good at something to justify them, but cruisers just do everything they do better, cheaper, and for less SP. Ideas have been floating around for their 4th ship bonus and also role bonuses to such things as web immunity or afterburner bonuses, whatever.
Agazoth III	Posted - 2008.02.12 08:03:00 - [49] Sorry but if you look outside of your trained AF box you'll see other frig size ships much better at anti drone, stealth tackling , and fast tacklers. The question is raised because the T2 ships aren't like there T1 ships. They have better tanks and and are slower. This pushes them into cruiser area which there sub-par. Just because a AF does well in a macro camp doesn't mean its fine, it means you have more people.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.02.12 08:05:00 - [50] ^^^ Thats me .
Felix Dzerzhinsky legion of qui Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.12 08:35:00 - [51] The only advantage in flying an AF is that you will watch your friends die before you do - or someone will want to take you as a killmail. . .just for the solo kill bonus. I love my Harpy - it looks cool as hell. But its a waste of a combat ship.
monomatic	Posted - 2008.02.12 11:19:00 - [52] ok... Any AF user who thinks AF's dont need a bonus? or think they have balanced with other t2's ? or think they are useful and playable? or think worth training in curent status? i dont think any AF user would agree with any of these... darn i hate to whine.... but the if im not mistaken brightest opinions summarize like on the following; - Mass reduction - propulsion module bonus - web resist - price reduce - role bonus - damage bonus so...Ccp? at least please tell us if you are considering any of them, or something else about AF's so we can cool down on AF threads...or if you think AF's are really 'finely tuned' at their current status and wont get any changes....let us know so we can forget on them.... did i said i hate whining?
Haradgrim The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.02.12 16:42:00 - [53] Originally by: monomatic ok... Any AF user who thinks AF's dont need a bonus? I don't or think they have balanced with other t2's ? in that they fill their intended role, yes or think they are useful and playable? I do or think worth training in curent status? considering they are a pre-req for HACs, its not much skin off my nose.... i dont think any AF user would agree with any of these... touche darn i hate to whine.... then don't but the if im not mistaken brightest opinions summarize like on the following; huh? - Mass reduction -would make them interceptors - propulsion module bonus -would make them interceptors - web resist -would be way overpowered (no way to stop them from going back through a gate) - price reduce -they aren't that expensive, the fittings are like 5x more - role bonus -this means what exactly - damage bonus so...Ccp? at least please tell us if you are considering any of them, or something else about AF's so we can cool down on AF threads...or if you think AF's are really 'finely tuned' at their current status and wont get any changes....let us know so we can forget on them.... did i said i hate whining? then don't As I've said, the scan resolution on AFs is what makes them generally worth flying, the resists on them make them solid enough to make use of that lock..... Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
ertur	Posted - 2008.02.12 19:22:00 - [54] Originally by: Garmon Originally by: Franconis Learn to fly a better ship. Also, a buddy of mine does very well in a harpy (Kills HACs/BCs etc) so AFs are not useless. Then those HACs/BCs are ******s That's exactly what i was going to say, a rupture or a rax will eat any AF for breakfast
Volir Deep Space HVAC	Posted - 2008.02.12 20:10:00 - [55] Edited by: Volir on 12/02/2008 20:10:12 Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: monomatic ok... Any AF user who thinks AF's dont need a bonus? I don't or think they have balanced with other t2's ? in that they fill their intended role, yes or think they are useful and playable? I do or think worth training in curent status? considering they are a pre-req for HACs, its not much skin off my nose.... i dont think any AF user would agree with any of these... touche darn i hate to whine.... then don't but the if im not mistaken brightest opinions summarize like on the following; huh? - Mass reduction -would make them interceptors - propulsion module bonus -would make them interceptors - web resist -would be way overpowered (no way to stop them from going back through a gate) - price reduce -they aren't that expensive, the fittings are like 5x more - role bonus -this means what exactly - damage bonus so...Ccp? at least please tell us if you are considering any of them, or something else about AF's so we can cool down on AF threads...or if you think AF's are really 'finely tuned' at their current status and wont get any changes....let us know so we can forget on them.... did i said i hate whining? then don't As I've said, the scan resolution on AFs is what makes them generally worth flying, the resists on them make them solid enough to make use of that lock..... So what is the AF role? How does it compare favorably to a cruiser? I believe it goes like this: +scan resolution +Gun tracking +Warp speed (NOT time to warp) -lock range -Hitpoints / tanking -Cost -SP requirements -Fitting -Speed -Engagement range -Vulnerability to EWar -Cargo size -DPS
Haradgrim The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.02.12 20:13:00 - [56] Edited by: Haradgrim on 12/02/2008 20:14:45 Originally by: Volir So what is the AF role? How does it compare favorably to a cruiser? I believe it goes like this: +scan resolution +Gun tracking +Warp speed (NOT time to warp) -lock range -Hitpoints / tanking -Cost -SP requirements -Fitting -Speed -Engagement range -Vulnerability to EWar -Cargo size -DPS 1) Fly AF 2) Fit Warp Jammer 3) Use insanely high signal resolution to lock targets before they warp 4) ??? 5) Profit Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Volir Deep Space HVAC	Posted - 2008.02.12 21:47:00 - [57] Edited by: Volir on 12/02/2008 21:47:46 Edited by: Volir on 12/02/2008 21:47:17 Originally by: Haradgrim Edited by: Haradgrim on 12/02/2008 20:23:31 Edited by: Haradgrim on 12/02/2008 20:14:45 So what is the AF role? How does it compare favorably to a cruiser? I believe it goes like this: +scan resolution allows fast locking of small targets or drones +Gun tracking allows you to hit small targets / drones +Warp speed (NOT time to warp) not that big a deal but does allow you to overtake larger targets and tackle them on the next gate -lock range have as much as they need -Hitpoints / tanking uhhh...my harpy tanks pretty well... and those disadv -Cost is in line with other t2 frigs -SP requirements all the skills are requirements for HACs too, and other than frig V you should have the others as they are fitting skills... -Fitting huh? -Speed no, because that would make them interceptors -Engagement range most races can fit at least of their AFs as a sniper -Vulnerability to EWar less so then most ships due to decent sensor strength and insanely fast lock time -Cargo size for what?????!?? -DPS I pop drones and frigs no problem with rails on a harpy, most AF have more DPS than that In summary: 1) Fly AF 2) Fit Warp Jammer 3) Use insanely high signal resolution to lock targets before they warp 4) ??? 5) Profit Compare an AF to a cruiser. Thats what I did there. AFs have those 3 advantages and multiple disadvantages. Don't post about it, but feel free to compare a HAC to a battlecruiser and a command ship to a battleship. In each case you're comparing the T2 combat ship to the larger T1 ship class. Those T2 ships have roles and can compete with their larger T1 relatives. As for what you said, everything is done better by not only cruisers, but by interceptors and destroyers. Pop drones? Lock fast?
Thelonius Rat Caldari MDK Syndicate Evolution Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.12 22:52:00 - [58] Originally by: Haradgrim Edited by: Haradgrim on 12/02/2008 21:42:07 In summary: 1) Fly AF 2) Fit Warp Jammer 3) Use insanely high signal resolution to lock targets before they warp 4) ??? 5) Profit Correction: 1) Fly interceptor 2) Fit Warp Jammer 3) Use insanely high signal resolution to lock targets before they warp 4) Use good speed and agility to get into warp jam range 5) Good Profit -
Volzir Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.12 23:34:00 - [59] Quote: They need the missing t1 bonus, but still without some sort of solution to the 'handling issue' I fear this wouldn't help them a bit. How about a 5% or 10% per AF level to agility? Member of the second best race in the galaxy.
Haradgrim The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:02:00 - [60] Originally by: Thelonius Rat Originally by: Haradgrim Edited by: Haradgrim on 12/02/2008 21:42:07 In summary: 1) Fly AF 2) Fit Warp Jammer 3) Use insanely high signal resolution to lock targets before they warp 4) ??? 5) Profit Correction: 1) Fly interceptor 2) Fit Warp Jammer 3) Use insanely high signal resolution to lock targets before they warp 4) Use good speed and agility to get into warp jam range 5) Good Profit Interceptors signal resolution isn't as high (you can almost fit a cloak and end up with the same resolution for Harpy vs Crow), also you can fit a sensor booster on an AF (scan resolution obvisouly) thanks to the AFs resists which allow it can tank 1 volley from pretty much anything. If it was an interceptor you would need the mids for speed. Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed

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