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Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.02.11 15:06:00 - [91] The BMBE has no need to release defaulter information, as under normal circumstances they would also have lost out due to the collateral exceeding the loan amount. It just happens there's one very public case when this was not the case, but it still doesn't allow us to create exceptions willy-nilly. Ask me about Secured ISK Loans from the BMBE.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.02.11 15:11:00 - [92] Originally by: Ricdic What if that defaulter released a public corporation tomorrow at 100b and you were 99% sure it was a scam as a result of your BMBE dealings with the individual? How would you address such a scenario? edit: removed negative spin Don't forget that defaulter loses collateral, which often has higher value than the loan itself. I think all details about loans, defaulted or not, should be confidental. Banks are not here to save people from being scammed.
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.11 15:12:00 - [93] Ok let me rephrase. If you had someone default/scam after their capital was devalued considerably and have to write off the debt would you say anything if that person appeared in these forums offering a large IPO and you had reason to believe (based on your experience with the person through BMBE) they would be scamming people? Really it's a risk every bank/loan institution has to be aware of. I won't bring up that old issue in detail, but the way it happened was something that could happen to any of us. So there is every possibility it could happen again tomorrow to any of the banks. Anyway that's my last post on this subject. I can't give an answer as to what we would do as we haven't determined it yet but I will when we do. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=500043 Largest Empire Research Alliance in EVE!
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.11 15:13:00 - [94] Edited by: Ricdic on 11/02/2008 15:14:27 Originally by: Robacz Don't forget that defaulter loses collateral, which often has higher value than the loan itself. Sorry the example was related to a default/scam in which causing the banks to be financially hurt, hopefully I cleared it up a bit in above post Quote: I think all details about loans, defaulted or not, should be confidental. Banks are not here to save people from being scammed. That is a valid viewpoint. I may not agree with it personally but it's a fair call. edit: sorry this is my last post on the subject http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=500043 Largest Empire Research Alliance in EVE!
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.02.11 15:21:00 - [95] Originally by: Ricdic Sorry the example was related to a default/scam in which causing the banks to be financially hurt Is it not the bank's loss then for incorrectly valuing collateral? Exceptions can't be made just because the institution has made a mistake. Ask me about Secured ISK Loans from the BMBE.
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2008.02.11 15:50:00 - [96] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Ricdic Sorry the example was related to a default/scam in which causing the banks to be financially hurt Is it not the bank's loss then for incorrectly valuing collateral? Exceptions can't be made just because the institution has made a mistake. I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but what is the point of this statement? Is it the bank's loss? Of course. It would be in either scenario. This statement adds nothing to the discussion; we are all agreed that the fault and liability for a loss related to an under-collateralized loan, regardless of its collateral level at issuance, lies squarely with the issuing bank and/or loan officer. The question I/we am/are posing is solely this: assuming bad faith on the part of the person who defaulted, is the bank the only person who can or should have the ability to know this black mark on the defaulting party's record, or may this information (whether acquired at a profit or at a loss for the bank) be disclosed as a service to the community and even, potentially, as a means to effect collection? MP -- Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral ~~compression~~expansion! WTF?
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.11 16:07:00 - [97] Ok, the first burning question in my mind is: why the hell does ebank allow 1 isk loans? That's way too much manpower for a trivial sum of money. I'd disallow anything under a million, but that's just me. Secondly Quote: Im still interested in knowing how you can say theres null risk. Trading is by far one of the most dangerous way of making isk. Many people have different definitions of the word 'trading'. Buying modules that are sold for less than mineral value and reprocessing them is completely risk free, unless you leave your orders up the day after a patch hits. Buying modules low and selling high in the same day is also pretty risk, free, as long as you don't wander off and leave your orders standing overnight while you're not there.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.11 16:38:00 - [98] Originally by: Ray McCormack The BMBE has no need to release defaulter information, as under normal circumstances they would also have lost out due to the collateral exceeding the loan amount. It just happens there's one very public case when this was not the case, but it still doesn't allow us to create exceptions willy-nilly. If BMBE had information regarding someone defaulting and kept it secret while an IPO formed, took billions of ISK, and then scammed it I would hold BMBE as a co-conspirator myself and I doubt I'm alone here. When you loan money from a bank you may have an expectation of privacy, but if you violate the terms/conditions you most certainly do not. The second you default that should become public knowledge even if you aren't starting an IPO. But if you are starting an IPO there is absolutely no excuse for the bank not mentioning it. The bank is only acting to cover this up if they refuse to disclose the information, thus becoming a conspirator in any scam. In RL any default is visible by anyone who wishes to do a credit report. So trying to say people in EVE need greater privacy than people in RL is quite silly. Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.02.11 17:04:00 - [99] Edited by: Robacz on 11/02/2008 17:04:18 Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Ray McCormack The BMBE has no need to release defaulter information, as under normal circumstances they would also have lost out due to the collateral exceeding the loan amount. It just happens there's one very public case when this was not the case, but it still doesn't allow us to create exceptions willy-nilly. If BMBE had information regarding someone defaulting and kept it secret while an IPO formed, took billions of ISK, and then scammed it I would hold BMBE as a co-conspirator myself and I doubt I'm alone here. When you loan money from a bank you may have an expectation of privacy, but if you violate the terms/conditions you most certainly do not. The second you default that should become public knowledge even if you aren't starting an IPO. But if you are starting an IPO there is absolutely no excuse for the bank not mentioning it. The bank is only acting to cover this up if they refuse to disclose the information, thus becoming a conspirator in any scam. In RL any default is visible by anyone who wishes to do a credit report. So trying to say people in EVE need greater privacy than people in RL is quite silly. Well you are the guy who wanted to hunt and kill people/corps who vouched for scammers, so your opinion is not surprising. BTW, it may be like that in your country, but it is not some world standard. Where I live, loan defaults are only shared between banks; individuals / non-bank organizations have no way to get that information.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.11 17:21:00 - [100] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Ray McCormack The BMBE has no need to release defaulter information, as under normal circumstances they would also have lost out due to the collateral exceeding the loan amount. It just happens there's one very public case when this was not the case, but it still doesn't allow us to create exceptions willy-nilly. If BMBE had information regarding someone defaulting and kept it secret while an IPO formed, took billions of ISK, and then scammed it I would hold BMBE as a co-conspirator myself and I doubt I'm alone here. When you loan money from a bank you may have an expectation of privacy, but if you violate the terms/conditions you most certainly do not. The second you default that should become public knowledge even if you aren't starting an IPO. But if you are starting an IPO there is absolutely no excuse for the bank not mentioning it. The bank is only acting to cover this up if they refuse to disclose the information, thus becoming a conspirator in any scam. In RL any default is visible by anyone who wishes to do a credit report. So trying to say people in EVE need greater privacy than people in RL is quite silly. I strongly agree. What we need is greater access to people's financial history, not the other way around. I too would hold a bank accountable for all ISK stolen should they knowingly fail to disclose that someone attempting to gather public funds had defaulted. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Banni Vinda The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.11 17:56:00 - [101] Edited by: Banni Vinda on 11/02/2008 17:56:50 (Note: This is just a personal comment on the matter of a bank's voluntary disclosure. Not necessarily EBank's policy, nor what I might prefer EBank's policy to be. These are just some personal thoughts after reading this thread) For anyone posting here looking for investment, a valid question that might be asked of them is "Do you have any kind of credit history with a known bank?" The person then has a few options: 1) They ignore the question 2) They answer, saying they have no history 3) They answer, saying they do have a history, and describe in their opinion how their rating might stand. 4) They answer, saying they do have a history, but prefer to keep it private A bank/institution then has the following options/obligations for each case: 1a) (The bank has no credit opinion on the person) - The bank says nothing. If asked directly: "No comment" 1b) (The bank does have a good credit rating on the person) - The bank says nothing. If asked directly: "No comment". The bank shouldn't endorse a person, unless that person specifically brings up their banking/credit rating. 1c) (The bank does have a bad credit rating on the person) - The bank says nothing. If asked directly, the bank could offer a statement that, in their opinion, the person represents a bad credit risk. The bank's reasons/intelligence should be kept private to the bank. 2) The bank confirms/denies the person's claim. If there is a credit history, the bank should confirm it, since the person's claim differs from the bank's. If you lie about your credit history, you should be called out on it. 3) The bank states it's agreement/disagreement with the person's claim. Note that a positive credit rating is just based on prior relations. It offers no guarantee on the person's future behaviour, nor offers any comment on the proposed investment. 4) Providing the term mentioned below was included in the original contract, then the bank may publish any information of its choosing regarding the person. However it is not obligated to publish any information at all. All of the above is assuming that any loans entered into between a person and a bank include the stipulation that, if the loan is defaulted, the bank may publish any information of it's choosing about the deal. Does a bank exist to provide a credit-rating/reporting service to the community. I don't necessarily think so? It might offer this, but I don't think it is obligated to do so in any/all cases. EDIT: Typo and numbering fix
Klavayne Free Mercenaries Union FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2008.02.11 23:55:00 - [102] Originally by: Robacz BTW, it may be like that in your country, but it is not some world standard. Where I live, loan defaults are only shared between banks; individuals / non-bank organizations have no way to get that information. That information goes further than you think, maybe not the specifics of it, but the repercussions do. This experience comes from personal experience of selling storecards through work (i wouldn't if i had the choice), the details of a persons credit history might not be available, but the negative effects are, e.g. they wont be allowed credit by the company i semi-represented if they had defaulted etc. The same reason holds true here. Yes, ricdic et al. might not have gone about it the best way but i think the intention was there to protect investors from a possibly risky business venture, even if exaggeration was necessary i don't think ricdic did it without thought. I'm not in the market for investments at the moment anyway so i'll stay out of this thread now.
Cogwheel	Posted - 2008.02.12 00:18:00 - [103] Edited by: Cogwheel on 12/02/2008 00:18:14 Has anyone ever thought about establishing an EVE Credit Bureau?
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.02.12 00:22:00 - [104] Originally by: Cogwheel Edited by: Cogwheel on 12/02/2008 00:18:14 Has anyone ever thought about establishing an EVE Credit Bureau? I was actually thinking about this last night but a few things kept me from thinking about it anymore. 1. who would be in charge of keeping it updated and couldn't they ruin the credit of someone they dont like. 2. who would supply the credit information? ebank? fury? Ray? What if I start my own bank, could I have access to submit information? 3. who would have access to the information once submitted? anyone willing to pay a fee? what about confidentiality? 4. i couldn't think of #4 as the first 3 pretty much told me it wouldnt work. ---------------------------------------------- Why do it the hard way when you can do it the AMARR way.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.12 00:29:00 - [105] Originally by: Cogwheel Edited by: Cogwheel on 12/02/2008 00:18:14 Has anyone ever thought about establishing an EVE Credit Bureau? Yes, there was discussion of it but there are lots of barriers, not the least of which is the fact that virtually all of the bond offers here are either from already reputable people whom a credit bureau wouldn't help or from totally unknown people with no credit history. Plus, when you have a purely mathematical system with stated rules it opens itself to manipulation. I would love to see the big lenders publish data on anyone that asks for public money unfortunately it's mostly either unnecessary or there's nothing of note to publish. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Cogwheel	Posted - 2008.02.12 00:32:00 - [106] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 1. who would be in charge of keeping it updated Creditors would be in charge of updating the Bureau with new details. Quote: and couldn't they ruin the credit of someone they dont like. Of course :) But that's not much different than now... The Bureau would be responsible for audits and handling any disputes that may arise. Quote: 2. who would supply the credit information? ebank? fury? Ray? What if I start my own bank, could I have access to submit information? IMO, yes. This would be consistent with RL bureaus. Quote: 3. who would have access to the information once submitted? My feeling is that the person wanting credit would have to authorize the release of their credit report to the company they want to do business with. The lender could make this a term of the agreement. Quote: anyone willing to pay a fee? Not quite sure what you mean... Quote: what about confidentiality? I could ask the same questions about ANY of the businesses operating in this context (banks, IPOs, etc.). ;) In all honesty, I don't see any risks in the system beyond those that people face anyway...
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2008.02.12 00:42:00 - [107] Originally by: Cogwheel Quote: anyone willing to pay a fee? Not quite sure what you mean... Who makes money from this? Why would anyone who has enough reputation capital to be capable of pulling this off be willing to attach their name to a venture like this? MP -- Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral ~~compression~~expansion! WTF?
Cogwheel	Posted - 2008.02.12 01:47:00 - [108] Edited by: Cogwheel on 12/02/2008 01:47:34 Originally by: Motivated Prophet Originally by: Cogwheel Quote: anyone willing to pay a fee? Not quite sure what you mean... Who makes money from this? Why would anyone who has enough reputation capital to be capable of pulling this off be willing to attach their name to a venture like this? MP Perhaps it could be a not-for-profit joint venture between the major lenders? Perhaps it could charge subscription or per-report fees? Those are just the first two possibilities that pop to mind... I really like this line of questions... perhaps this deserves a new thread? (or is this one so totally derailed as to make that a non-issue? )
Cogwheel	Posted - 2008.02.12 01:56:00 - [109] Edited by: Cogwheel on 12/02/2008 02:01:45 Originally by: Kwint Sommer Yes, there was discussion of it but there are lots of barriers, not the least of which is the fact that virtually all of the bond offers here are either from already reputable people whom a credit bureau wouldn't help or from totally unknown people with no credit history. Perhaps with a system like this lenders, banks, potential investors, etc. might be more comfortable with riskier investments. Nothing like backing IPOs with sparse info, but things like partially-secured loans with high interest rates, or other more casual practices. Quote: Plus, when you have a purely mathematical system with stated rules it opens itself to manipulation. Do you mean something like your credit score? That would be an entirely separate issue... The underlying report would simply be a listing of accounts and any pertinent details thereof (requests for credit, payment histories, defaults, etc.). Any sort of score or rating would need to be taken with a grain of salt. Edit: Don't get me wrong... I don't suffer any delusions that a credit bureau might help prevent scams, etc. It's not meant for that purpose as far as I'm concerned. The purpose would simply be to make the financial market more liquid.
Ryu Kibegami Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.02.14 01:53:00 - [110] I will say I invested 150mil ISK the first time he made an offering before everything became a drama. I lost a ship and thus needed my ISK returned, and Kyrial payed me the funds owed to me promtly. Thus, I will say from my experience he produced what he promised. I will not comment about other aspects as that is not relavent to the thread.
pmacFTO Caldari Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:25:00 - [111] hmm...I see: Request, ridicule, refute, scam, quote, quote, argue, quote, argue, PR disaster, argue, refute, quote, quote, laugh, ego, bicker, quote, quote, in fight, quote, support, argue, zzzzzz Having fun? Forums are always a laugh.
Ferrosa GREY COUNCIL Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:13:00 - [112] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: Ray McCormack Put simply, I am disgusted that you would think and still think that a default on a 1ISK loan is reason enough to publically demand repayment. The point was not so much demanding the 1 ISK back as pointing out the fact that the OP -asking for public money- has a history of not being able to manage his finances. If you can't see that distinction you need to stop double posting in this thread. In fact you need to stop double posting either way, it's really annoying.... My posting methods are none of your concern. And you cannot seriously consider that not repaying a 1 ISK loan means he cannot manage his finances. No financial institution in the world thinks that. Ah please, you're bashing everyone around here about their posting methods and we can't say anything about yours? Stop acting like Mr. Saint Of All That Lives and move along. You stated yourself that you have never taken out a loan at EBANK, so frankly, you shouldn't be in this discussion. I respect you a lot, but don't start criticising and complaining about every word someone posts around here.
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.02.15 23:42:00 - [113] Originally by: Ricdic Ok let me rephrase. If you had someone default/scam after their capital was devalued considerably and have to write off the debt would you say anything if that person appeared in these forums offering a large IPO and you had reason to believe (based on your experience with the person through BMBE) they would be scamming people? I hate to beat a dead horse, but I have to raise a valid question. In your question, Ricdic, you say if someone defaulted/scammed. But this guy never defaulted on the loan. My question is what right do you have to discredit someone for a loan that is still in due-process? What right does the E-Bank founder have to publicly humiliate and discredit anyone who has not defaulted? The 'bush administration' mentality of "but what if he WAS a terrorist?" has begged me to ask the question. I by no means mean any disrespect to you or your company, but as a consumer and also a budding entrepreneur I believe it is my right to know my rights should I choose to do business with an institution that may be holding the funds of my investors.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.16 00:15:00 - [114] Originally by: Chomin H'ak I hate to beat a dead horse, but I have to raise a valid question. In your question, Ricdic, you say if someone defaulted/scammed. But this guy never defaulted on the loan. My question is what right do you have to discredit someone for a loan that is still in due-process? What right does the E-Bank founder have to publicly humiliate and discredit anyone who has not defaulted? The 'bush administration' mentality of "but what if he WAS a terrorist?" has begged me to ask the question. I by no means mean any disrespect to you or your company, but as a consumer and also a budding entrepreneur I believe it is my right to know my rights should I choose to do business with an institution that may be holding the funds of my investors. This is not the place to discuss politics and not the time to discuss the Ebank stuff. That has been discussed to death and then some. Every valid point has been said, argued about, said again with emphasis, trolled and then most of the threads were locked. Leave it alone and take the politics somewhere else. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.02.16 00:22:00 - [115] Originally by: Kwint Sommer take the politics somewhere else. No politics involved, I was working on a way to get an account through EBank that would allow investors to take from their respective share earnings and let them see what their money is doing at the same time with Ricdic a few weeks ago. Now, should I look elsewhere for my business, or not? I believe I'm asking a valid question. If he tells me it's in my best interest to go elsewhere, then fine. Politics are bad for business, imo.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.02.16 00:27:00 - [116] I think the political reference itself was the matter that was being pointed out. As for your more pertinent question, this has become not the place for meaningful discussion on the matter due to contention/trolling on this issue (and many others). I hope this answers why you won't get an answer here at this time nor any time soon. If you truly seek discussion on the matter Ebank maintains forums of its very own. These forums have a more lax environment with which to discuss as well as being free of rampant, or subtle, trolling. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.

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