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Why am I having to pay for a service that is never available?

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Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.02.12 08:28:00 - [31] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Apocryphai The login queue is a bug. Doesn't work, never has. If you get the queue just close the client and try again. No. This a real issue with some people. The logon servers proxies are not being forwarded properly by some isps and messes up some peoples ability to log on. The problem is that they think its all CCPs fault. Not that I know anything about CCP's network setup, BUT the idea of login proxies hosted outside CCP's own network feels a bit odd. After all, the proxy distributes the load but the traffic is still forwarded within their own network afaik. To my knowledge there are no global-wide proxies hosted at various ISPs. They are all located in the cluster in UK. So, I have no idea what you mean by that they are not being forwarded properly by some ISPs, guessing you're talking filtering/traffic shaping here - and that has nothing to do with the login proxies as they would be treated the same way no matter if it's a proxy or direct hit on TQ - seeing as you cannot see what's behind the proxy anyway. Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar?

Primnproper	Posted - 2008.02.12 08:30:00 - [32] 1) It is probably your isp, thats the normal cause especially when every one else can connect without a problem... 2) The reason CCP can treat you however they want because you can't go anywhere else to get their service, there is no eve operated by a different company so if you want to play the game you put up with the way they run it, just like any other company you deal with that has a monopoly on supply, welcome to the real world where no matter how much you cry and stamp your feet, no one cares ... Originally by: Graveyard Tan I call bull**** and troll. If you are deaf, how are you even able to read this or type replies?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.02.12 08:41:00 - [33] Have a look at this thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=702169 Maybe the problem on their end is back. But of course now you're just reading my sig...
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.02.12 10:54:00 - [34] Originally by: Chribba Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Apocryphai The login queue is a bug. Doesn't work, never has. If you get the queue just close the client and try again. No. This a real issue with some people. The logon servers proxies are not being forwarded properly by some isps and messes up some peoples ability to log on. The problem is that they think its all CCPs fault. Not that I know anything about CCP's network setup, BUT the idea of login proxies hosted outside CCP's own network feels a bit odd. After all, the proxy distributes the load but the traffic is still forwarded within their own network afaik. To my knowledge there are no global-wide proxies hosted at various ISPs. They are all located in the cluster in UK. So, I have no idea what you mean by that they are not being forwarded properly by some ISPs, guessing you're talking filtering/traffic shaping here - and that has nothing to do with the login proxies as they would be treated the same way no matter if it's a proxy or direct hit on TQ - seeing as you cannot see what's behind the proxy anyway. I probably got the terms wrong. Just going on what a dev posted in anouther login queue thread. Something about resetting your router/modem so it could get whatever info it needs from the login server so you can login. It was something they were looking into. Originally by: Nice Guy This means that the writer epicaly fails at english. Irony. So delicious.
ApaKaka Lone Starr Corporation	Posted - 2008.02.12 11:22:00 - [35] Originally by: Chribba Not that I know anything about CCP's network setup, BUT the idea of login proxies hosted outside CCP's own network feels a bit odd. After all, the proxy distributes the load but the traffic is still forwarded within their own network afaik. To my knowledge there are no global-wide proxies hosted at various ISPs. They are all located in the cluster in UK. So, I have no idea what you mean by that they are not being forwarded properly by some ISPs, guessing you're talking filtering/traffic shaping here - and that has nothing to do with the login proxies as they would be treated the same way no matter if it's a proxy or direct hit on TQ - seeing as you cannot see what's behind the proxy anyway. I think what he means is that there are several "entry points" (Read: peers) towards different ISPs from CCPs network. Level3 and limelight networks are two examples. Depending on which way your packets travel, you might end up at some predefined proxy which is always overloaded. Also the network is probably proxied inwards towards each cluster (like Jita, Delve/Deklein etc) and depending on which proxy you end up on, you might experience very long queues. So the question is more about load balancing on the part of CCP and what they should do to ease it, and not any ISP that users are connecting from - as you pretty much stated in your post. Just trying to clear it up for the other readers from my viewpoint.
Zaerlorth Maelkor	Posted - 2008.02.12 11:38:00 - [36] I've never had any trouble logging in or out of Jita. I sometimes get to sit in queue for 1-2 minutes when there are 40k people on, regardless of where in the universe I am. I'm guessing there is something or other wrong at the ops end.
Arrunca Minmatar BLACK-FLAG	Posted - 2008.02.12 11:54:00 - [37] Originally by: DILOOCA Ok, so I'm assuming you folks are CCP employees at this point. But since you'll inevitably come back saying you're not.... Why are you defending CCP and trying to make it seem like it's ok that they lack the capacity to service all of the people who are paying a subscription to them? It's not a question of how much they would owe us if they reimbursed based on queue time. It's a matter of paying for a service and then not being able to use the service you're paying for. If you went to a concert and found that they over-sold the event and that you would have to wait for 50 people to leave before you could go in, would you be so vocal in defending the organizers of the event? Of course not. You'd be ****ed and you'd be completely justified. This topic is entirely too clear cut for your view to be lent any sort of credence. We're paying to play the game. We can't play the game because CCP has chosen not to expand their infrastructure as their user-base has grown. Continue to play the contrarian if you like but there's really no rational position on the other side of this argument. Read the user license agreement agai... erhm... Just read it. Then you will know that CCP is in full right to shut down the server at any point with no reimbursement. TThe only one looking stupid is you really, if you hate it so much, quit or invent a lag free server.
Donrell University of Caille	Posted - 2008.02.12 12:07:00 - [38] Originally by: DILOOCA Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 12/02/2008 07:08:38 Peak times for the majority of online game are the same as every other activity on the web. Not sure where you got this info but I'd suggest you check your facts. Peak gaming happens 7-10 pm. Web traffic gets big and stays big pretty much all day long: 7 am to 6 pm. The graphs typically look like a big long plateau. Evening gaming traffic doesn't begin to approach regular day time throughput. Use the google more. Outside work hours, peak times are from 6pm to 11pm/12pm(18:00 to 23:00/00:00). Any FAQ page from an ISP would tell you that. You are competing with all the downloaders, youtubers, mmo playing people to connect to eve. Looks like your isp is doing some nice overbooking on it's lines. Might want to get a different one.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.12 12:23:00 - [39] Edited by: Andrue on 12/02/2008 12:24:49 Originally by: Paranoid Dreamszs Originally by: Tek'a Rain Have to pay? Golly, I don't think you Have to pay at all. unless a Dev is holding you at gunpoint to force you to type in your credit details, you dont Have to do anything. You can, of course, Choose to pay or Choose to not pay if you feel the service is not fair for payment rendered. This post was to illustrate the fact that they are providing a pay to use service and if that service is not available due to thier issues, we should receive a financial credit for the amount of time we were unable to play. Cable companies will do that but you must call them whoever asked that question. I don't believe you, sorry. The most they'd owe you would be the time you couldn't connect. That would amount to a few pennies per hour. Even a day's outage probably wouldn't come to more than a dollar. In the UK a week's outage would be worth less than the price of a pint of beer. Given the differences between consumer law in the UK and the US I just can't see any ISP offering compensation. They might decide to offer a one-of good-will payment or suspend subscription for the affected month but it'd have to be a very, very bad outage. As for Eve..the figures for the normal of people logged on (pretty normal) and the general lack of complaints suggest it's business as usual for most of us. Most likely the problem is with your system, your ISP or the route being taken across the Internet. CCP are not responsible for any of those things. Follow the hints in the 'known issues and workarounds' forum for resolving routing issues. CCP are actually very good at helping with these problems. Far more helpful than they need to be since they often are beyond their control or responsibility. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Archa Caldari Chickens with an Attitude No Law	Posted - 2008.02.12 14:18:00 - [40] A. CCP does read the forums and does respond. B. We are not defending CCP because we don't have to. C. Stop *****ing about people's english grammar. We are not as "highly" educated as you are. If you really wanted a response from ccp try writing them a decent e-mail. Like a decent person would do. Not company takes a post ,like the one you wrote, seriously. Stop whining, read what everybody wrote. and if it still doesn't work, write a good e-mail to ccp asking for help. It's not them that is causing the problem, it is you or your isp. And in the future, don't be an a'hole
mishkof Caldari Shadows of Valor Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.12 14:25:00 - [41] It is definately something on CCPs end. I could get on at all last night for no apparent reason...Eve-o was the only website that wasnt available to me as well. I played Halo 3 on X-box 360, and COD on my computer. I went to check this morning and wah lah, I am magicaly able to post this message...It is kinda like magic. It is definately CCP. I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me
Lucas Avignon Avignon Associates Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.12 14:37:00 - [42] Originally by: Paranoid Dreamszs It seems that I am always receiving the message "cluster has reached its maximum user limit" and then it throws me into a BS queue that gets to like 2 and then resets back up to 2300 or so. Why is it cable and internet providers give credit for instances of outages but Eve does not? Is it not a provider of a service which we pay for? Well it should be held responsible for times when you can not connect. Also when will they ever fix the lag issues? Almost every system is becoming unbareable and impossible to play. All this time when are you all planning on fixing it? Or are you just gonna let it stay the same while you take are money? All I can say is it is absolutely rediculous service and nobody would stand for it in a real world situation. CCP Clean you act up so we can enjoy the game we are paying for. I log into the Eve server quite a bit with two clients as do my friends, neither them nor I have any problem connecting, deduct your at fault here not CCP. .... sig goes here!
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:19:00 - [43] I've gotten the "Cluster has reached its maximum limit. You are #X in queue" message before, too. Close the Eve client and restart it to correct the problem. I've always logged in as normal when doing that. My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:22:00 - [44] Edited by: Andrue on 12/02/2008 15:23:53 Originally by: mishkof Edited by: mishkof on 12/02/2008 14:28:13 It is definately something on CCPs end. I couldnt get on at all last night for no apparent reason...Eve-o was the only website that wasnt available to me as well. I played Halo 3 on X-box 360, and COD on my computer. I went to check this morning and wah lah, I am magicaly able to post this message...It is kinda like magic. It is definately CCP. Edit - Evemon told me the servers were down while I was magicaly listening to gleeful voices playing it up on vent Which tends to confirm that it is not CCP's end, don't you think? If Eve's servers fail everyone will be thrown off. The servers only have a few connections going into them (two, maybe three). If only one of them fail thousands of players will lose their connection at the same time. This was the case with the recent proxy glitch that was stickied at the top of the forum. Either way the forum would come alive with complaints from vast hordes of annoyed players. Those that lost their connection would all have lost it at about the same time. Those experiencing random connection drops would be able to give approximately the same time for the start of the problems (ie;'it all went wobbly last week'). The fact that you appear to be on your own or one of only a small handful of people experiencing difficulty pretty much proves that the problem is closer to you. Have you run the traceroute tests I mentioned? One of the greatest mistakes you can make when troubleshooting is to assume you know what's going on. Run the diagnostics that have been suggested to you. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Fanjita	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:24:00 - [45] Originally by: Paranoid Dreamszs Originally by: Tek'a Rain Have to pay? Golly, I don't think you Have to pay at all. unless a Dev is holding you at gunpoint to force you to type in your credit details, you dont Have to do anything. You can, of course, Choose to pay or Choose to not pay if you feel the service is not fair for payment rendered. WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH i want my 0.0000000002 cents cause i couldnt log in for 10 minutes.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:26:00 - [46] Quote: Why am I having to pay for a service that is never available? Even before reading your post, this title told me what to expect for two reasons? 1. Suggesting that your "service" (I.E. connecting to EVE, which is what you're paying for) is never available is blatantly false and extreme hyperbole. Using this as a summary for your entire post destroys your credibility 2. In addition, suggesting that you are "having to pay" for this service is also false, as no one is forcing you to play. These attributes simply repeated themselves throughout your entire post, and that combined with your angry child attitude, various spelling mistakes and your sense of entitlement removed any chance of seriously considering your arguments. If you are dissatisfied with the game, cancel your account and let your subscription (or lack thereof) speak for itself. You won't do that, of course, because you don't have the balls to actually quit. You're just going to come to the forums when you get angry enough and throw a verbal tantrum. EVE doesn't need any more people like you. You're probably better off quitting. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!)
Jaedan Chantes LiveTech Cold Fusion Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:49:00 - [47] Originally by: Tarminic Quote: Why am I having to pay for a service that is never available? 2. In addition, suggesting that you are "having to pay" for this service is also false, as no one is forcing you to play. I think this is somewhat faulty and just twisting his meaning; I see this a lot. None of us pay everytime we login. We all pre-pay for our 30 days of gametime. So it's not so much that he's (and all of us) have to pay, but it's the fact that we already did. And someone said it earlier, there is only one EVE. Nothing else is even close. So if you want to fly spaceships around and such...well, you kinda have to pay CCP to get your fix. Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily defending the guy. The Internet's complicated and I'm sure the problem comes from a variety of sources. --- "Dear CCP, Could you change the name of the game to EvE - Offline ?"
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:53:00 - [48] Originally by: mishkof Edited by: mishkof on 12/02/2008 14:28:13 It is definately something on CCPs end. I couldnt get on at all last night for no apparent reason...Eve-o was the only website that wasnt available to me as well. I played Halo 3 on X-box 360, and COD on my computer. I went to check this morning and wah lah, I am magicaly able to post this message...It is kinda like magic. It is definately CCP. Edit - Evemon told me the servers were down while I was magicaly listening to gleeful voices playing it up on vent You fail at the Internet. Eve can be affected by "traffic shaping", which is a thing your ISP does to limit traffic. They are delaying packets that are needed by specific programs (Eve is one of them) and not others. So you can be just fine with other programs, and not fine with Eve. That is not CCP's fault. It's your stupid ISP. And you fail at the Internet. ------------------ Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire.
Nocturnal Avenger The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.12 16:11:00 - [49] Originally by: Paranoid Dreamszs It seems that I am always receiving the message "cluster has reached its maximum user limit" and then it throws me into a BS queue that gets to like 2 and then resets back up to 2300 or so. Why is it cable and internet providers give credit for instances of outages but Eve does not? Is it not a provider of a service which we pay for? Well it should be held responsible for times when you can not connect. Also when will they ever fix the lag issues? Almost every system is becoming unbareable and impossible to play. All this time when are you all planning on fixing it? Or are you just gonna let it stay the same while you take are money? All I can say is it is absolutely rediculous service and nobody would stand for it in a real world situation. CCP Clean you act up so we can enjoy the game we are paying for. For the last three years - I have been able to log in about 99% of the (non-DT) time. Logging into Jita or similar system might take a while though. You might want to consider moving to less-populated systems if your game is severely lagged. It saves us your whines on the forums and gives you a much better game experience. - Carebear Pirate -
ProjectSeven Minmatar Rulers Of Mankind Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.12 17:20:00 - [50] someone give this man the definition of never -sig- RoM recruiting
mishkof Caldari Shadows of Valor Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.12 17:51:00 - [51] Edited by: mishkof on 12/02/2008 17:55:09 Originally by: Agent Li You fail at the Internet. Eve can be affected by "traffic shaping", which is a thing your ISP does to limit traffic. They are delaying packets that are needed by specific programs (Eve is one of them) and not others. So you can be just fine with other programs, and not fine with Eve. That is not CCP's fault. It's your stupid ISP. And you fail at the Internet. LOL fail at internet? Based on your own description of my problem it would appear that CCPs game is a resource hogging POS at times. Since every other application works over the internet, it would appear that is the case. Logic says that if I havent changed anything since the last time I *attempted to log in and CCP did (down time) then the conclusion would be that their action solved my problem. I.E the problem at their end. You fail. I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.12 19:32:00 - [52] Hello Mr. Troll, I glanced at the other thread you started on this subject and it was equally as insightful. I have left a nickel underneath the cushions of your sofa to compensate you for any time you may have wasted this month trying to log onto EVE. Keep the change.
Zanpt	Posted - 2008.02.14 13:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Zeba No. This a real issue with some people. The logon servers proxies are not being forwarded properly by some isps and messes up some peoples ability to log on. The problem is that they think its all CCPs fault. Warning: the above quote is total network gibberish. The OP doesn't have even the beginnings of a clue about networking.
Loyal Servant Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.14 13:50:00 - [54] I have been booted 2 times, and was unable to login after being booted those times. Not a network problem in my area.... and the cluster could be pinged. So, I guess it is not fixed yet. So, why is ccp messing with my sig?

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