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Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:24:00 - [31] Edited by: Saladin on 14/02/2008 16:27:43 Edited by: Saladin on 14/02/2008 16:27:09 Originally by: Terianna Eri (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) Amarr ships that don't use capacitor based weapon systems like Motherships and Carriers still have far more cap than the other races. On the issue of Tracking Disruptors: CCP should not have made them affect fall off unless tracking enhancers and tracking computers boosted fall off. The change might go through this time, but with time it will get changed again when their incompetence catches up with them.
Hunter Hughes Caldari Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Jonny MoJo Edited by: Jonny MoJo on 13/02/2008 23:16:01 Amarr suck. They Have worst tracking for close range Worst range for long range (new apoc makes it 2nd best range though) Worst cap useage Worst fitting requirements worst slot layouts. Even a Thorax fitted with lasers outclasses laser omen in every singe way - even more cap and cap recharge. Lolz. Laser thorax outclasses maller as well. lol Now you are complaining about tracking disrupters. Well, your turrets are immune to neut. Amarr turrets are finished with neut. So if you cannot neut a minmatar to stop firing, then you can at least tracking disrupt them. You are a idiot/ noob/ ignorant in every way. Yes amarr suck if you have low skills (>20,000,000sp), you need at least that much to have all cap skills to 5, most of your gunnery to 5 (all support skills AT LEAST 4), ships skills high and finally ARMOR FULL T2 with support skills to 4. At this level you can pump HUGE range and dmg out of an Abbadon (Tachyons) and while its cap runs out in a few min, 1 cycle from a guardian's cap transfer arrays can get your cap to 75%. Or you could run it as a massive tank for bait OR wtfpwn solo with a plate/ megapulse setup. WHY WOULD YOU USE AN OMEN OR AN APOC AS EXAMPLES?!?!? They are bad ships, get used to it BUT amarr have the ABBADON, ARMAGEEDON, HARBINGER, MALEDICTION, SACRILEGE, ZEALOT, and the all-mighty ABSOLUTION. They are balanced sufficently. If you dont believe me, Go download ARMAGEDDON or ANY of Cown's movies. Note: Amarr is a fleet based race, that is where they shine so use them there. Originally by:* GinoShin Edited by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:47:00 - [33] Originally by: Saladin Originally by: Terianna Eri (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) Amarr ships that don't use capacitor based weapon systems like Motherships and Carriers still have far more cap than the other races. On the issue of Tracking Disruptors: CCP should not have made them affect fall off unless tracking enhancers and tracking computers boosted fall off. The change might go through this time, but with time it will get changed again when their incompetence catches up with them. AC fitted ships are not that range limited as you claim them to be. Various reasons: 1) Range independent ammo: in ACs ammo varies dmg type and DPS, not range, cause variations are practically minimal. 2) Built-in Range bonuses for given ammo types. Should TE/TCs affect fall-off as well, projectile ammo should be re-balanced so that current ranges without TD effects could remain the same. Under TD effect tho, that shouldn't give any advantages at all - should it? And you wouldn't want that? Would you? ACs are not the close range limited weapon platform. DPS and range wise are pretty much balanced vs. lasers considering that they use no cap, and can easily out-range blasters. Long range minmatar fits would become overpowered should TC/TE's boosted fall-off as well as optimal with the same script. Cause arties surely don't lack range, do they? This whole "TDs are overpowered without counters" whine-wagon is completely wrong, cause practically there are no "counters" that wouldn't ruin current effective PvP ranges apart from a anti-TD dedicated module ala ECCM that NO-ONE would fit - admit it. So enough with this "scam": the only thing that has no counters is AC range, and now that's going to be fixed. Otherwise the Rook pilots should whine, requesting an anti-ECCM bonus built in to their ECM amplifiers and amarrians for an anti-NOS effectiveness bonus built in cap relays!
nihlanth	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:08:00 - [34] Edited by: nihlanth on 14/02/2008 17:12:27 It's been two weeks, so where's the new dev blog on this 'boost'? Plz, dont let me tremble with anticipation daily for too long, CCP, or I may develop parkinsons' disease or seizures. Now, we wouldnt want that do happen do we? *Collapses on floor, shaking, and foaming at the mouth**
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:38:00 - [35] Originally by: Terianna Eri Well, I fly Amarr and I've gotten pretty sick of hearing people say "Train Caldari / Minmatar / Gallente." So.... Train Amarr. (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) QFT. Train amarr. I mean youve gone after FOTM before (thats why you havent trained amarr out of all races) so whats the problem now?
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:42:00 - [36] Originally by: nihlanth Edited by: nihlanth on 14/02/2008 17:12:27 It's been two weeks, so where's the new dev blog on this 'boost'? Plz, dont let me tremble with anticipation daily for too long, CCP, or I may develop parkinsons' disease or seizures. Now, we wouldnt want that do happen do we? *Collapses on floor, shaking, and foaming at the mouth** Good boosts, zealot+omen get an extra turret, apoc gets cap bonus built in and a range bonus. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=537 --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Bruce Deorum http://myeve.eve-online.com/feed/rdfdevblog.asp Anyway I think this is getting lame. Patch after patch, i havent seen anything good on our people. Need some morale boost, tell me why we're still better? You got a huge boost to EMP ammo, wich is quite commonly used. Tank has been nerfed for ALL races. What are you exactly complaining about? That amarr gets FIXES? No, its not a real boost, its a FIX that has been long over due....aprox 2-3 years tbh. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:53:00 - [38] Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 14/02/2008 16:27:43 Edited by: Saladin on 14/02/2008 16:27:09 Originally by: Terianna Eri (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) Amarr ships that don't use capacitor based weapon systems like Motherships and Carriers still have far more cap than the other races. On the issue of Tracking Disruptors: CCP should not have made them affect fall off unless tracking enhancers and tracking computers boosted fall off. The change might go through this time, but with time it will get changed again when their incompetence catches up with them. Since you evidently either ignored, not understood or havent read 1000 replies about the TDs Im going to put it simple for you why: TEs and TCs affecting fall off would be like giving minmatar AC boats damage mods in mids and lows without stack penalty to gyros. ACs already have fall off rigs. Be glad that these work as extra dmg mods already. Dont ask for more. The added fall off effect of TDs is a FIX, not a boost. Thats the way they should have worked and TDs are now more inline with other EW. Its fine. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:09:00 - [39] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Since you evidently either ignored, not understood or havent read 1000 replies about the TDs Im going to put it simple for you why: TEs and TCs affecting fall off would be like giving minmatar AC boats damage mods in mids and lows without stack penalty to gyros. ACs already have fall off rigs. Be glad that these work as extra dmg mods already. Dont ask for more. Since you evidently either ignored, not understood or havent read 1000 replies about the TDs Im going to put it simple for you why: TEs and TCs affecting optimal would be like giving Amarr laser boats damage mods in mids and lows without stack penalty to heatsinks. Lasers already have Optimal and falloff rigs and lots of variation in T1 and T2 range ammo. Be glad that these work as extra dmg mods already. Dont ask for more. ... Quote: The added fall off effect of TDs is a FIX, not a boost. Thats the way they should have worked and TDs are now more inline with other EW. Its fine. I agree - that is the way they should always have worked.... but that Minmatar simply do not have a viable counter to tracking disruption. You say that falloff rigs and barrage affect falloff - and that's true. But that's all that affects falloff - and even with the current situation, you dance on the edge of web range using barrage. A single unbonused TD takes minmatar damage to 0 outside of the no-fly-zone-of-death. Why are you so opposed to balanced ewar? The way that they have proposed TD's makes them 100% uncounterable when using autocannons. Lasers can counter TD's, Hybrids can counter TD's, and missiles and drones are completely immune to them. Autocannons, however (as with all things minmatar I suppose) have a simple on-off switch. You're already getting the next FOTM, you don't need to make it even stronger with uncounterable ewar. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:16:00 - [40] Originally by: Liang Nuren TEs and TCs affecting optimal would be like giving Amarr laser boats damage mods in mids and lows without stack penalty to heatsinks. Lasers already have Optimal and falloff rigs and lots of variation in T1 and T2 range ammo. Be glad that these work as extra dmg mods already. Dont ask for more. Lets look at a vaga and a zealot. Scram range is 24km = engagement range in small combat. For vaga a falloff boost is a damage boost at range 0-24km. For zealot added range and falloff is zero damage boost. Do you understand the difference? Originally by: Liang Nuren Why are you so opposed to balanced ewar? The way that they have proposed TD's makes them 100% uncounterable when using autocannons. We cant counter TPs or 40km Webs either. The only counter for these is: Kill the EW ship. Same goes for AC boats. Go close to your enemy, wich is no prob because minmatar have fast ships, and kill the EW ship. Its fine, its balanced. Originally by: Liang Nuren A single unbonused TD takes minmatar damage to 0 outside of the no-fly-zone-of-death This needs an adjustment, everyone agrees with this. Same as ecm: Nerf TDs but boost the bonus on amarr ew bonused ships. Originally by: Liang Nuren You're already getting the next FOTM, you don't need to make it even stronger with uncounterable ewar. You never whined about ecm drones or ecm? You can say what you want but both ecm and ecm drones are as uncounterable as TDs on ACs. Atleast ACs can fly in close and kill their target. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:40:00 - [41] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 14/02/2008 18:40:12 Not to ridicule this whole discussion but can anybody who ever fitted several tcs/tes on his amarr ship to counter tracking disruptors please raise his hand? No one? Sure? Ok. Case closed?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Lets look at a vaga and a zealot. Scram range is 24km = engagement range in small combat. For vaga a falloff boost is a damage boost at range 0-24km. For zealot added range and falloff is zero damage boost. Do you understand the difference? Scram range <= 30km... I tend to run with faction disruptors as a counter to regular heavy neuts. Quote: We cant counter TPs or 40km Webs either. Webs are (somewhat) countered by MWDs and ABs. TP's are lol... r u srs? Comparing a mod that might increase the damage you take to a mod that turns your damage into 0% of what it was? Quote: This needs an adjustment, everyone agrees with this. Same as ecm: Nerf TDs but boost the bonus on amarr ew bonused ships. I don't see that CCP has responded to any thread stating that they are going to fix that. Obviously, they need a bit more prodding. Quote: You never whined about ecm drones or ecm? You can say what you want but both ecm and ecm drones are as uncounterable as TDs on ACs. Atleast ACs can fly in close and kill their target. ECCM works on ECM and ECM drones - there is a counter that is available to everyone (whether they fit it or not). TD's, however, do not have a counter. Please note that I'm OK with Amarr recons completely shutting down turrets of all varieties (though I still feel that TC's and TE's should affect falloff). -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 19:22:00 - [43] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/02/2008 19:23:15 Originally by: Liang Nuren Scram range <= 30km... I tend to run with faction disruptors as a counter to regular heavy neuts. My statement is still true. A zealot has inherently 30+km range anyway with HP scorch. Originally by: Liang Nuren Webs are (somewhat) countered by MWDs and ABs. TP's are lol... r u srs? Comparing a mod that might increase the damage you take to a mod that turns your damage into 0% of what it was? Uhm, turning MWD on is just asking to paint a huge crosshair on your ship. Its not a good counter, more a last ditch effort to reach gate/enemy before you got pop. ABs have too little boost to make a difference while webbed. Originally by: Liang Nuren ECCM works on ECM and ECM drones - there is a counter that is available to everyone (whether they fit it or not). TD's, however, do not have a counter. People mostly use ECM drones in empire wars and low sec = smartbombs are out the window most of the times. Its not a good enough counter. You might argue though that the problem lies within ecm drones and their imbalance. ECCM is a weak module that you only fit when you know youre going up against ecm heavy gangs/fleets. ECCM doesnt boost ANYTHING else. It just gives you weak protection. Its basically not even worth considering to fit on anything except a battleship anyway and even overloaded ECCMs on BSs tend to get jammed by silly medium ecm drones way too often. Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:14:00 - [44] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/02/2008 19:23:15 ECCM is a weak module that you only fit when you know youre going up against ecm heavy gangs/fleets. ECCM doesnt boost ANYTHING else. It just gives you weak protection. Its basically not even worth considering to fit on anything except a battleship anyway and even overloaded ECCMs on BSs tend to get jammed by silly medium ecm drones way too often. Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. eccm is the counter to ecm,but ecm drones have two counters... I recently fought a skilled pilot in an astarte with my abso 1 on 1(yes a rare fight but a fight nonetheless)I lasted long enough to lock and destroy every one of his ecm drones with my weapons and kill him,smartbombs do work even in highsec-lowsec when 5km away or 10km depending on the size of the said device,fofs also work against the said drones as do your own drones. Trust me,ecm drones arent as good as they might seem to you. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:18:00 - [45] Originally by: goodby4u Trust me,ecm drones arent as good as they might seem to you. In 1vs1 situations is pretty much the only time you have time to lock each drone and shoot it. The thing is, in a 1vs1 ecm drones then work as a stab, wich is also stupid. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:21:00 - [46] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: goodby4u Trust me,ecm drones arent as good as they might seem to you. In 1vs1 situations is pretty much the only time you have time to lock each drone and shoot it. The thing is, in a 1vs1 ecm drones then work as a stab, wich is also stupid. I always kill them first so he cannot run,as for more then 1v1 yeah they can be affective against the one said person but smartbombs still take care of them/fofs/your drones/your gang mates. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:25:00 - [47] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. ECM at least has a counter that's available to everyone. TD's don't after the patch. They both act as a damage reduction. There is an imbalance, and to fix it, TC's and TE's should affect falloff. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:28:00 - [48] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. ECM at least has a counter that's available to everyone. TD's don't after the patch. They both act as a damage reduction. There is an imbalance, and to fix it, TC's and TE's should affect falloff. -Liang Fall off rigs. Think of it the other way. Fall off rigs are the only rigs that give you damage bonus in your typical area of operation for most ACs. Wich other rig gives that for lasers? -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:28:00 - [49] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. ECM at least has a counter that's available to everyone. TD's don't after the patch. They both act as a damage reduction. There is an imbalance, and to fix it, TC's and TE's should affect falloff. -Liang Though I agree It might be bad to see vagas getting falloff ranges of 40km,at the same time if they can only be used to counter the falloff TD then most speed tanked/falloff using ships probably wont even use them. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:32:00 - [50] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Fall off rigs. Think of it the other way. Fall off rigs are the only rigs that give you damage bonus in your typical area of operation for most ACs. Wich other rig gives that for lasers? Falloff rigs (which give pulse more affect than optimal rigs give AC's), optimal rigs (if you need them), tracking rigs (since you people whine so much about tracking), etc. All of the rigs that affect guns without affecting the damage mod (hs/gyro/mfs/bcu) stats boost damage in some way. It's not as though projectiles are unique in this - but they are unique in not having a counter to a TD. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:34:00 - [51] Originally by: goodby4u Though I agree It might be bad to see vagas getting falloff ranges of 40km,at the same time if they can only be used to counter the falloff TD then most speed tanked/falloff using ships probably wont even use them. The Vagabond will still be dealing less damage than the Zealot, even if it had 40km falloff. Also, 40km falloff is outside of warp disruptor range. I can see why it gives people pause - but it's far worse to completely nerf all non-falloff bonused Minmatar ships in the game. Or are we going to now trade the ROF bonus for a falloff bonuus on all ships so that Amarr can have it's uncounterable Ewar? -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:42:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: goodby4u Though I agree It might be bad to see vagas getting falloff ranges of 40km,at the same time if they can only be used to counter the falloff TD then most speed tanked/falloff using ships probably wont even use them. The Vagabond will still be dealing less damage than the Zealot, even if it had 40km falloff. Also, 40km falloff is outside of warp disruptor range. I can see why it gives people pause - but it's far worse to completely nerf all non-falloff bonused Minmatar ships in the game. Or are we going to now trade the ROF bonus for a falloff bonuus on all ships so that Amarr can have it's uncounterable Ewar? -Liang 1. It has a counter, its your choice not to fit them. They are called falloff rigs. 2. It doesn't nerf Minmatar ships. They have both the most spare med slots and the least cap dependent tank and gun operations in the game. They also are the easiest to fit CPU wise of any ships in the game bar Caldari. Originally by: Liang Nuren TEs and TCs affecting optimal would be like giving Amarr laser boats damage mods in mids and lows without stack penalty to heatsinks. Lasers already have Optimal and falloff rigs and lots of variation in T1 and T2 range ammo. Be glad that these work as extra dmg mods already. Dont ask for more. ... No, its not. Ive explained why this is to you in simple english in the othe r19 page thread. followyour own advice and look it up.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:43:00 - [53] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: goodby4u Though I agree It might be bad to see vagas getting falloff ranges of 40km,at the same time if they can only be used to counter the falloff TD then most speed tanked/falloff using ships probably wont even use them. The Vagabond will still be dealing less damage than the Zealot, even if it had 40km falloff. Also, 40km falloff is outside of warp disruptor range. I can see why it gives people pause - but it's far worse to completely nerf all non-falloff bonused Minmatar ships in the game. Or are we going to now trade the ROF bonus for a falloff bonuus on all ships so that Amarr can have it's uncounterable Ewar? -Liang Have you ever seen a falcon jam a zealot?Sure we have eccms but seriously nobody can or will fit them on their zealots because of the lack of mids and it has no real bonuses to that ship outside of that specific fight. Tracking computers with a falloff bonus will be treated the same way with vagas/falloff using ships and if they give a huge bonus(50% to falloff)the vaga will be able to hit things far outside scram range,this might not sound bad and it isnt 1v1 but with nano gangs that gives the vaga the ability to hit targets while in retreat which is a big difference over its current state. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:48:00 - [54] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. ECM at least has a counter that's available to everyone. TD's don't after the patch. They both act as a damage reduction. There is an imbalance, and to fix it, TC's and TE's should affect falloff. -Liang Well ECM does shut down pretty much everything besides FoF missles, and drone aggro. TDs are useless versus missle systems, so treat them as equals isn't exactly fair. Also from an Amarrian point of view, hardly any vessels can fit an unbonused TD because they have few mid slots. The only ships that will fit them will be the bonused ships, and they should have devastating effects on turrents. However races like Minmatar, Gallente could fit them if they prove to be that effective. If that's the case, that they become the new FOTM, the nerf will follow. If that doesn't occur, then it's really a non-issue. Also Minmatar have natural advantages over Amarr, so why shouldn't amarr have something on Minmatar? Your natural t2 resistances to em are still going to be 90% post patch. ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:52:00 - [55] Originally by: Liang Nuren Falloff rigs (which give pulse more affect than optimal rigs give AC's), optimal rigs (if you need them), tracking rigs (since you people whine so much about tracking), etc. All of the rigs that affect guns without affecting the damage mod (hs/gyro/mfs/bcu) stats boost damage in some way. It's not as though projectiles are unique in this - but they are unique in not having a counter to a TD. -Liang This has been explained enough in the other threads. You really should look it up. Ill keep it short because its pita to repeat the same thing a thousand times. Lasers that get a falloff+opti boost only get more range and no boost to their damage within the old range. ACs that get a falloff+opti boost get a damage boost through the WHOLE falloff range (wich is pretty much all their range) and extra range. The TEs and TCs also give tracking wich is a damage boost to both. ACs benefit way too much from modules like that. As I said, be glad you have falloff rigs because they are powerful and lasers DONT have something that is comparable to it. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:55:00 - [56] Originally by: Liang Nuren The Vagabond will still be dealing less damage than the Zealot, even if it had 40km falloff. Also, 40km falloff is outside of warp disruptor range. I can see why it gives people pause - but it's far worse to completely nerf all non-falloff bonused Minmatar ships in the game. Or are we going to now trade the ROF bonus for a falloff bonuus on all ships so that Amarr can have it's uncounterable Ewar? -Liang A vagabond should always deal less damage then a zealot. There is something called dps/speed ratio balance in eve. My comparison was more about the fact that vagabond will get a boost in dps while a ship like zealot wont in its 24-30km engagement range in small battles. To give minmatar TCs and TEs that affect their falloff and giving some ships imbalanced dps is a much larger balance issue then 4 ships total ingame that can mess up falloff based weapons. Something there is a counter for wich every AC boats fits anyways: Falloff rig. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Yargo Metash Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:09:00 - [57] IMO the TD issue will need to be seen in action before I can judge it, on one hand I'm concerned, on the other, I don't really care. As to the OP, I started up an Amarr alt recently, to see how they handle, getting a feel for the race. (currently only up to a Coercer and having to keep an eye on my cap is interesting.) The EM resist nerf I'm not worried about. It affects everyone, not just amarr, so it's both a boost/nerf. Min still have speed (And I doubt it'll be taken away unless it's in the form of an MWD adjustment) and still have their rusty metal/duct tape charm. And if you don't like that, train another race. And if you reallllly need a moral boost, then Min players still get a wide spread of skills while Amarr just get heavy Mechanic/Gunnery. (in terms of soldiers. I Was rather annoyed that I didn't have any Nav skills when I started as Amarr. Just personal, not that there's a problem there )
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:33:00 - [58] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Lets look at a vaga and a zealot. Scram range is 24km = engagement range in small combat. For vaga a falloff boost is a damage boost at range 0-24km. For zealot added range and falloff is zero damage boost. Do you understand the difference? You're forgetting that those TEs require slots, slots which typically are not empty waiting for TEs to get changed. a TE with 15% falloff mod outdamages a 3rd gyro only after 22km or so, on vagabond with 1 falloff rig fitted (carb + 1 falloff seems somewhat common), so much for 'imbalanced dps'. Replacing a second gyro (2gyro vaga is pretty common) with TE is even worse. So no, vaga doesn't get a damage boost from 0-24km, replacing 3rd gyro gets you less damage 0-22km and more damage at 22-24km. Obviously if you're replacing 2nd gyro, you'll be even worse off. Quote: Think of it the other way. Fall off rigs are the only rigs that give you damage bonus in your typical area of operation for most ACs. Wich other rig gives that for lasers? Optimal rig. 15% longer mf range etc is a damage boost and same for next best crystal and so forth until you switch to scorch. If you have tracking issues with scorch (or don't have t2 guns) then optimal rig is going to be an overall damage boost pretty much all the way from end of unbonused mf range upto your maximum range with faction crystals.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:41:00 - [59] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer To give minmatar TCs and TEs that affect their falloff and giving some ships imbalanced dps is a much larger balance issue then 4 ships total ingame that can mess up falloff based weapons. Something there is a counter for wich every AC boats fits anyways: Falloff rig. First, there are lots of ships that are able to fit an unbonused tracking disruptor. Even these will take DPS to 0, even for falloff bonused ships fighting with Barrage and falloff rigs - and this is for unbonused TD's! Bonused TD's really will have no counter at all (even though you as Amarr, Caldari, and Gallente do have multiple counters to it). There really is a no-fly-zone inside overheated web range for most AC ships. Also, if almost every AC ship fits falloff rigs already, just so that they can stay competative with the other ships of the same class, it's hardly a counter. It's simply a mandatory mod that allows the use of the guns outside of the zone of 100% death - and even then it's only just barely outside that zone of death in most cases. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:44:00 - [60] Originally by: Trigos Trilobi Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Lets look at a vaga and a zealot. Scram range is 24km = engagement range in small combat. For vaga a falloff boost is a damage boost at range 0-24km. For zealot added range and falloff is zero damage boost. Do you understand the difference? You're forgetting that those TEs require slots, slots which typically are not empty waiting for TEs to get changed. a TE with 15% falloff mod outdamages a 3rd gyro only after 22km or so, on vagabond with 1 falloff rig fitted (carb + 1 falloff seems somewhat common), so much for 'imbalanced dps'. Replacing a second gyro (2gyro vaga is pretty common) with TE is even worse. So no, vaga doesn't get a damage boost from 0-24km, replacing 3rd gyro gets you less damage 0-22km and more damage at 22-24km. Obviously if you're replacing 2nd gyro, you'll be even worse off. Quote: Think of it the other way. Fall off rigs are the only rigs that give you damage bonus in your typical area of operation for most ACs. Wich other rig gives that for lasers? Optimal rig. 15% longer mf range etc is a damage boost and same for next best crystal and so forth until you switch to scorch. If you have tracking issues with scorch (or don't have t2 guns) then optimal rig is going to be an overall damage boost pretty much all the way from end of unbonused mf range upto your maximum range with faction crystals. Uhm. You know scorch and multifrequency are the only options for pulses. If you dont, welcome to amarr eve. So....NO, optimal rigs dont give amarr damage boosts when they have T2 guns. Try fitting a vaga with 2 gyros and 1 TE or 2 gyros and 2 TEs. With 2 polies in rig slots and rest of the low slots going for speed mods its still going to be fast but with pretty wicked damage. Ofcourse you cant remove the "2nd" gyro and think a TE is going to make up for it. We playing the same game, yes? -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation

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