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Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 22:59:00 - [1] http://myeve.eve-online.com/feed/rdfdevblog.asp I know i know, But as a minmatar, i hate to see a whole blog like Amarr needs more cap Amarr needs more slots Amarr needs explosive damage (ffs) Amarr needs firepower And all we get is a tracking disruptor that affects our falloff & getting instead of 92.5 EMrez 90. This is big difference. (we already had a crappy range, forced to fight in falloff - less real DPS - no easy wayz to enhance falloff) and the only priviledge we had was that falloff was unaffacted by disruption (and that it is the same if u use 180mms, 220mm, or 425mm, guns). Anyway I think this is getting lame. Patch after patch, i havent seen anything good on our people. Need some morale boost, tell me why we're still better?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:01:00 - [2] Originally by: Bruce Deorum Need some morale boost, tell me why we're still better? We're not. Just get used to being screwed or train up Caldari/Amarr cruiser 5. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:09:00 - [3] This article was outrageous. As if Amarr where the only race in the game that weren't perfect. As if i never wished this muninn i have, had more slots (which is the most handicaped ship for HAC as far as i can tell) Now that i mentioned muninn. It has exactly the same number of slots as the rupture. Rupture is almost 90% muninn (armor tankers ships... even have almost same armor rez) whereas vagabond is 2 times better than stabber. (more slots, more firepower, better rez)
Terianna Eri Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:14:00 - [4] Well, I fly Amarr and I've gotten pretty sick of hearing people say "Train Caldari / Minmatar / Gallente." So.... Train Amarr. (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) __________________________________
Jonny MoJo Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:15:00 - [5] Amarr suck. They Have worst tracking for close range Worst range for long range (new apoc makes it 2nd best range though) Worst cap useage Worst fitting requirements worst slot layouts. Now you are complaining about tracking disrupters. Well, your turrets are immune to neut. Amarr turrets are finished with neut. So if you cannot neut a minmatar to stop firing, then you can at least tracking disrupt them. Refresh for next Real life CCP Sig(21 Total)
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:16:00 - [6] Originally by: Terianna Eri (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) Only because no race with an appropriately sized active tank has cap stability... thus you are not "better" or "worse". -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Terianna Eri Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:18:00 - [7] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Terianna Eri (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) Only because no race with an appropriately sized active tank has cap stability... thus you are not "better" or "worse". -Liang Stability was the wrong word. Take out the "st" and just leave it as "ability." I don't find that the Amarran ships I fly have any better capacitors than the other ships do, but at least everyone can fit an injector. __________________________________
Mavil	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:23:00 - [8] Hey look, everybody! Jonny Jojo got himself an alt! Thank you for returning, oh great one. The boards have been so dry lately. They needed you and your tears. And to be more on topic here; Amarr did need a boost for quite a few ships. I'm still not sure why they thought the -resist change was such a good idea though.
Felix Dzerzhinsky legion of qui Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Bruce Deorum http://myeve.eve-online.com/feed/rdfdevblog.asp I know i know, But as a minmatar, i hate to see a whole blog like Amarr needs more cap Amarr needs more slots Amarr needs explosive damage (ffs) Amarr needs firepower And all we get is a tracking disruptor that affects our falloff & getting instead of 92.5 EMrez 90. This is big difference. (we already had a crappy range, forced to fight in falloff - less real DPS - no easy wayz to enhance falloff) and the only priviledge we had was that falloff was unaffacted by disruption (and that it is the same if u use 180mms, 220mm, or 425mm, guns). Anyway I think this is getting lame. Patch after patch, i havent seen anything good on our people. Need some morale boost, tell me why we're still better? Firstly, there is a very interesting discussion on the TD changes in this Ships and Fittings forum - some people, Ruah Piskonit of PIE and Guomingdung of Goonswarm have made a very good case for why the changes are fair. I suggest you read it. I know I learned a fair bit. Secondly, Minmatar are the speed race and are supposed to have the worst DPS - even lower then Caldari. The RP reason is based on their primitive and technologically inferior wepon systems - the game balance is that Minmatar make fast ships but don't hit particularly hard. Amarr do pitifully low damage for the price they pay for using lasers. Slight changes to fitting, cap use and damage need to be made in order to keep them competative. They are the 'Gank and Tank' race and the blog is clear that they will be getting more gank. They will not be getting more mids and they will not be getting 'Blaze' crystals (explosive). In all honesty, I see the resistance changes as a major boost for Minmatar more then for Amarr. Minmatar have it good right now, and as an older player, you should remember the days when no one flew Minmatar because they frankly sucked. Minmatar will keep their speed, but their damage is going to take a hit. I see that as being fair.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:38:00 - [10] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Firstly, there is a very interesting discussion on the TD changes in this Ships and Fittings forum - some people, Ruah Piskonit of PIE and Guomingdung of Goonswarm have made a very good case for why the changes are fair. I suggest you read it. I know I learned a fair bit. No, they make a case why it's somehow acceptable (to them) that a single unbonused tracking disruptor should overcome 6 tracking computers and 5 tracking enhancers. The simple fact is that Minmatar have no counter to the new tracking disruptor. Quote: Minmatar will keep their speed, but their damage is going to take a hit. I see that as being fair. Zulupark has said he is taking the speed away. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Koryvarn Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2008.02.14 00:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Firstly, there is a very interesting discussion on the TD changes in this Ships and Fittings forum - some people, Ruah Piskonit of PIE and Guomingdung of Goonswarm have made a very good case for why the changes are fair. I suggest you read it. I know I learned a fair bit. No, they make a case why it's somehow acceptable (to them) that a single unbonused tracking disruptor should overcome 6 tracking computers and 5 tracking enhancers. The simple fact is that Minmatar have no counter to the new tracking disruptor. -Liang I think the tracking disrupter is a direct effect of nanoboats with falloff rigs. Sure you can zoom about at speeds where I'll never be able to hit you... but at least now, the nano ship wont be able to hit me either, if I have a tracking disrupter fitted. I don't think it's a particular unfair change. It's not gonna make everyone fit a TD anyway. It has a use now, which is always nice. As for the OP.... the Amarr are getting some sucky ships fixed. They still have a lot of sucky ships, but every little helps. What people should be doing is encouraging ccp to fix sucky ships, so they may look at other ships that aren't performing. And lets face it, if you could run out of capacitor simply by shooting your guns, you'd whine about capacitor too.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.02.14 01:20:00 - [12] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Firstly, there is a very interesting discussion on the TD changes in this Ships and Fittings forum - some people, Ruah Piskonit of PIE and Guomingdung of Goonswarm have made a very good case for why the changes are fair. I suggest you read it. I know I learned a fair bit. No, they make a case why it's somehow acceptable (to them) that a single unbonused tracking disruptor should overcome 6 tracking computers and 5 tracking enhancers. The simple fact is that Minmatar have no counter to the new tracking disruptor. You know Liang, 5 TE IIs and 6 TC IIs would get you a 50% boost to optimal on say, lasers or railguns. A single max-skilled unbonused TD II will take 50% range away, down to 75% range. So tell me, do the Amarr have a counter to the old Tracking Disruptor? Do the Caldari? 3 Falloff rigs gets you about a 40% increase to falloff (so long as we're comparing setups using as many upgrades to range as possible, we may as well). You're not much worse off there. Would Falloff scripts/effects for TEs/TCs be unbalanced? I'm not sure. But tell me, why should autocannons be practically immune to the range destroying effects of the least-used (currently) EW mod in the game? Why should Autocannons turrets be practically immune to one of the primary effects of turret disruptors? -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.14 01:21:00 - [13] Edited by: arbalesttom on 14/02/2008 01:22:59 Edited by: arbalesttom on 14/02/2008 01:22:36 Originally by: Jonny MoJo Edited by: Jonny MoJo on 13/02/2008 23:16:01 Amarr suck. They Have worst tracking for close range Worst range for long range (new apoc makes it 2nd best range though) Worst cap useage Worst fitting requirements worst slot layouts. Even a Thorax fitted with lasers outclasses laser omen in every singe way - even more cap and cap recharge. Lolz. Laser thorax outclasses maller as well. lol Now you are complaining about tracking disrupters. Well, your turrets are immune to neut. Amarr turrets are finished with neut. So if you cannot neut a minmatar to stop firing, then you can at least tracking disrupt them. Omg jonny did they activate those lame sig of yours again? Anyway... IBTL Edit: Ps. Amarr is fine, the only 'problem' is you need overall more maxed skills before you can fly the ships 'good' (just like minmatar...). The devs think amarr is fine, so stop whining please.. *Warning! Sig ahead!* Bounty: Jonny JoJo
Perfect Diamond	Posted - 2008.02.14 01:27:00 - [14] Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 14/02/2008 01:29:19 Remember the em nerf hits amarr really hard to. The pilgrim goes from 60 to 50% em armor resists and gains 10% explosive shield resists. How many other amarr ships are affected by this? FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, I CAN'T EVEN THINK OF A SINGLE AMARR SHIP THAT SHIELD TANKS. GET OVER IT.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 01:29:00 - [15] Originally by: Bruce Deorum http://myeve.eve-online.com/feed/rdfdevblog.asp I know i know, But as a minmatar, i hate to see a whole blog like Amarr needs more cap Amarr needs more slots Amarr needs explosive damage (ffs) Amarr needs firepower And all we get is a tracking disruptor that affects our falloff & getting instead of 92.5 EMrez 90. This is big difference. (we already had a crappy range, forced to fight in falloff - less real DPS - no easy wayz to enhance falloff) and the only priviledge we had was that falloff was unaffacted by disruption (and that it is the same if u use 180mms, 220mm, or 425mm, guns). Anyway I think this is getting lame. Patch after patch, i havent seen anything good on our people. Need some morale boost, tell me why we're still better? As I and many other people have said the zealot/omen/apoc needed boosts because there was close to no use for them(zealot to a lesser degree,but it still needed oomph),I think these boosts are a great idea and are necessary. The disruption thing is because ccp is getting tired of every roaming gang being a nano one,and most of the ships in that gang are minmatar(vaga huggin rapier sleipnir),ships like the ishtar you can kill the drones of so thats not as big of a problem. Whether I like these changes or not they are coming,nanoing is being overused and if it remains so im sure ccp will nerf it as they have done to overused stuff in that past. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 01:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis You know Liang, 5 TE IIs and 6 TC IIs would get you a 50% boost to optimal on say, lasers or railguns. A single max-skilled unbonused TD II will take 50% range away, down to 75% range. So tell me, do the Amarr have a counter to the old Tracking Disruptor? Do the Caldari? Yes - because you can affect your range modifier - both by ammo and by module. Autocannons cannot affect their range modifier beyond that of Barrage (which is being rendered useless) - even including modules. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 02:11:00 - [17] I can understand that some are less usable than others. But this is a fact for other races also (see muninn) Only amarr have useless ships? Previous Patch were the Khanid Ships (amarr again if my memory serves me right) About a year ago was the big nanofiber nerf. (i understand this was quite fair, but hey didnt it fix things or what?) But by with the HUGE tracking disrupt boost, practically this is the end of skirmish warfare. We must know face each other, open fire, and wait. This is not a slight DPS reduction for minmatar, this is a ZEROing of damage. Because I cannt fly closer than 15km (even that is too close imho). As per TD boost, i will be able to deal some damage at 8-9km. U see if any fast ship, (for which i sacrifice all my 4 low slots to achieve that speed) gets to close (16km is the RED ALERT for me) gets webbed, and boom. PS I need some explanation. Above post smbd said that the resistances change are actually a big minmatar boost. Why is it so?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 02:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Bruce Deorum PS I need some explanation. Above post smbd said that the resistances change are actually a big minmatar boost. Why is it so? The argument is that EMP will not suck as much as it used to (EM and Exp damage) -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Jurgen Cartis You know Liang, 5 TE IIs and 6 TC IIs would get you a 50% boost to optimal on say, lasers or railguns. A single max-skilled unbonused TD II will take 50% range away, down to 75% range. So tell me, do the Amarr have a counter to the old Tracking Disruptor? Do the Caldari? Yes - because you can affect your range modifier - both by ammo and by module. Autocannons cannot affect their range modifier beyond that of Barrage (which is being rendered useless) - even including modules. -Liang Yes they can. Falloff rigs. Fit them. Also, the TD boost is a minmitar boost.
Gneeznow Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:48:00 - [20] /me trains amarr
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Bruce Deorum Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 14/02/2008 02:24:28 I can understand that some ships are less usable than others. But this is a fact for other races also (see muninn) Only amarr have useless ships? Previous Patch were the Khanid Ships (amarr again if my memory serves me right) About a year ago was the big nanofiber nerf. (i understand this was quite fair, but hey didnt it fix things or what?) But by with the HUGE tracking disrupt boost, practically this is the end of skirmish warfare. We must know face each other, open fire, and wait. This is not a slight DPS reduction for minmatar, this is a ZEROing of damage. Because I cannt fly closer than 15km (even that is too close imho). As per TD boost, i will be able to deal some damage at 8-9km. U see if any fast ship, (for which i sacrifice all my 4 low slots to achieve that speed) gets to close (16km is the RED ALERT for me) gets webbed, and boom. PS I need some explanation. Above post smbd said that the resistances change are actually a big minmatar boost. Why is it so? Yes,all races have their useless ships(though not useless,but in most situations they wont fit)however,amarr have the most of any race. As for the falloff thing TD's affect any turret ship,med sized amarrian weapons(shortrange)can go to about 20-30km,since a TD with a range script cuts that nearly in half. As for it boosting minmatar,barrage and hail will work alot better against shields now aswell as emp towards armor,whereas amarr have em/therm so it only affects one,not to mention it doesnt affect the fight with amarr vs minmatar t2 as most minmatar t2 shield buffer and the emp for the shields werent changed. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Msobe	Posted - 2008.02.14 05:46:00 - [22] They made it really simple in the post. "The reason for this change is the Tracking Disruptors are largely ineffective against blasters and auto cannons which have a high tracking speeds and large falloffs. Disrupting the optimal range does not affect them in any significant way and tracking disruption is not very effective either because of the large falloff. By allowing the Optimal Range Disruption script to affect falloff as well, Tracking Disruptors can be used effectively to reduce the range of blasters and auto cannons." That's why they changed TD's . . . they weren't happy with the fact that they impacted lasers more than other turret types. It's not a minmatar nerf, its a buff to an ewar system that was largely useless, and certainly less useful than the rest. Note that they will be more often be useful to minmatar pilots - who have more mid slots, and so more often will find a way to fit one than amarr, anyhow. Trying to fit crucial mods into fewer slots than you have mods as it is . . . I just can't see that hordes of amarr pilots will be running around with TD's on unbonused ships, regardless. (MWD, Web, Scram, Cap injector . . . oh wait, I only have 3 mids.) I am simply amazed that people can honestly complain that "gee, that will reduce my damage to zero at range" when it was already doing that to amarr. Lasers are different from projectiles, and can fit longer range crystals . . . but minmatar ships are different than amarr ships, can can dictate range. Having your turrets shut down is no more or less fair because you're using one weapon system or another. As for them having no counter . . . I keep hearing from minmatar shout over and over "But every ewar mod has a counter, its not fair we have no counter module for fall off reduction!" Funny, last I checked, there is no mod to reduce sig, so the matari racial ewar has no counter. :-/ Should fall off be increased by tc/te? Possibly - I think probably. I think it was an oversight that TD's were only debuffing optimal range, when a turrets range depends on both optimal and falloff. If that's the case, it's the same oversight that has TC/TE buffing only optimal instead of optimal and falloff. In any kind of MMO, making a change is never as simple as "just add this, it makes sense" though. It should be tried out and tested, and if its viable, then implemented. So yeah . . . is it unfair to buff TDs? No, not at all. Is it particularly an amarr buff? In name only - very few unbonused amarr ships can fit them anyhow. It does make the game better by adding in new strategic possibilities, and that can't be a bad thing.
HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.02.14 07:02:00 - [23] They are sticking to this whole "gank and tank" theory and they are failing to acknowledge that amarr FAIL at this. Amarr cannot tank and shoot guns at the same time. They run out of cap. FAIL Most amarr ships cannot tackle or be used for "assault" purposes because of limited mid slots. They are going to make a special exception for the omen, but not the rest of the ships. Not even the laser interceptor can tackle. FAIL Laser damage type is NOT BALANCED. Most ships in eve having EM resistance as highest resist, in combination with a damage system that is almost entirely EM with most ammo is NOT balance. FAIL What still needs to happen: 1) Leverage the midslots for ALL Amarr ships. 2) Flip thermal and EM damage. 3) Lasers/crystals/ships need to be tweeked to where amarr can fire lasers and sustain a tank. Some say this would be overpowered. No, this would be GALLENTE
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 11:15:00 - [24] Hey, emp ammo is getting buffed, so minis are getting a buff.... Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 13:16:00 - [25] Ppl, get real! And that goes to my corp-m8 who started another lame flaming OP! TDs needed the boost - that fact is that Minmatar was immune to TD range disruption more than any other race. Blasters are not similar to ACs. Blasters where and will be point-blank weapons. Ewar is meant to over-power modules. Just like ECCM cannot nullify the ECM effects, or no-nano ship can beat a bonused web - yet 2. In comparison even fall-off rigs seam a fair trade against TDs that just disrupt range. Also, EM armor rez decrease is an overall boost to EM dmg. So EVERY race that can deal EM dmg is booster more or less. And Minmatar are more likely to pack EM capable ammo than any other race, as EMP are pretty much standard for "cheap" ammo. And faction EMP is pretty much standard for close range minmatar fits => a great boost for these also. How Ravens and other EM capable offensive fits can take advantage of EM rez changes is up to your imagination... Also 92.5% resistances without expensive mods was "too much", don't you think? If other races can't do that, y should minmatar? (for their given "strong" T2 res).
Raxxius Maelstrom	Posted - 2008.02.14 13:46:00 - [26] Originally by: Msobe That's why they changed TD's . . . they weren't happy with the fact that they impacted lasers more than other turret types. It's not a minmatar nerf, its a buff to an ewar system that was largely useless, and certainly less useful than the rest. Note that they will be more often be useful to minmatar pilots - who have more mid slots, and so more often will find a way to fit one than amarr, anyhow. Trying to fit crucial mods into fewer slots than you have mods as it is . . . I just can't see that hordes of amarr pilots will be running around with TD's on unbonused ships, regardless. (MWD, Web, Scram, Cap injector . . . oh wait, I only have 3 mids.) As for them having no counter . . . I keep hearing from minmatar shout over and over "But every ewar mod has a counter, its not fair we have no counter module for fall off reduction!" Funny, last I checked, there is no mod to reduce sig, so the matari racial ewar has no counter. :-/ I'm sorry, but I can't believe you're actually using target painters as a counterpoint. Target painters are highly situational and 95% of the time useless as sig radius is not really that important.
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 13:54:00 - [27] Im sorry but i dont think that any quite old player uses EMP as standar ammo. Barrage is the ammo 90% of the time, in pvp speaking of course. We will only switch to EMP (or hail) if we are need more DPS, we're sure we wont be webbed (cause EMP gives a practical shot range of 7-8km at max) and only for a short time if we cant get the target's shields down...
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation	Posted - 2008.02.14 15:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Originally by: Bruce Deorum http://myeve.eve-online.com/feed/rdfdevblog.asp Secondly, Minmatar are the speed race and are supposed to have the worst DPS - even lower then Caldari. The RP reason is based on their primitive and technologically inferior wepon systems - the game balance is that Minmatar make fast ships but don't hit particularly hard. Yer like RP means any thing with the cyclone and maelstorm been shield tanks Been HIGH tec unless building them is easyer than wacking a armor plate out now. The whole Dps for speed is not blanced for the most part a Massive 10-15 base speed is hardly balanced given the Lower tank cap/rechange and loss of dps on none dual dd bonus ships. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:09:00 - [29] Quote: I can understand that some ships are less usable than others. But this is a fact for other races also (see muninn) Only amarr have useless ships? The Muninn is an awesome ship for speedy gangs and midrange sniping. Maybe you would prefer it to be a different ship, suited for something else but it does its job very well. No, of course it's not only amarr that has useless ships, but they have the biggest amount of useless/underpowered ships.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Bruce Deorum Im sorry but i dont think that any quite old player uses EMP as standar ammo. Barrage is the ammo 90% of the time, in pvp speaking of course. We will only switch to EMP (or hail) if we are need more DPS, we're sure we wont be webbed (cause EMP gives a practical shot range of 7-8km at max) and only for a short time if we cant get the target's shields down... Barrage vs. TD's fall-off disruption etc is all whining about the Vaga getting less effective. But I assure you that many non-Vaga minmatar ships fly around with EMP ammo (at-least in bay) and in general EMP ammo is way more "standard fit" than TDs are or ever will be. Simply because webbers and cap boosters take up mid-slots - and the ships that can effectively fit all-three are very limited, and surely not all Amarrian - just like the barrage-limited ships are way fewer than you suggest them to be. And simply because Range-wise, EMP is a close match to other T1 projectile ammo it's a practical and prefered choise by many - at least faction EMP. Now EMP won't be limited for the few, purely tanked Shield tanks - rare in PvP environment = practicaly an minmatar boost. -------------------------------------------------- Don't bother whining about the Vaga, the Curse, or other specialized T2 ships in terms of RP and technology advantages - plz. --------------------------------------------------
Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:24:00 - [31] Edited by: Saladin on 14/02/2008 16:27:43 Edited by: Saladin on 14/02/2008 16:27:09 Originally by: Terianna Eri (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) Amarr ships that don't use capacitor based weapon systems like Motherships and Carriers still have far more cap than the other races. On the issue of Tracking Disruptors: CCP should not have made them affect fall off unless tracking enhancers and tracking computers boosted fall off. The change might go through this time, but with time it will get changed again when their incompetence catches up with them.
Hunter Hughes Caldari Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Jonny MoJo Edited by: Jonny MoJo on 13/02/2008 23:16:01 Amarr suck. They Have worst tracking for close range Worst range for long range (new apoc makes it 2nd best range though) Worst cap useage Worst fitting requirements worst slot layouts. Even a Thorax fitted with lasers outclasses laser omen in every singe way - even more cap and cap recharge. Lolz. Laser thorax outclasses maller as well. lol Now you are complaining about tracking disrupters. Well, your turrets are immune to neut. Amarr turrets are finished with neut. So if you cannot neut a minmatar to stop firing, then you can at least tracking disrupt them. You are a idiot/ noob/ ignorant in every way. Yes amarr suck if you have low skills (>20,000,000sp), you need at least that much to have all cap skills to 5, most of your gunnery to 5 (all support skills AT LEAST 4), ships skills high and finally ARMOR FULL T2 with support skills to 4. At this level you can pump HUGE range and dmg out of an Abbadon (Tachyons) and while its cap runs out in a few min, 1 cycle from a guardian's cap transfer arrays can get your cap to 75%. Or you could run it as a massive tank for bait OR wtfpwn solo with a plate/ megapulse setup. WHY WOULD YOU USE AN OMEN OR AN APOC AS EXAMPLES?!?!? They are bad ships, get used to it BUT amarr have the ABBADON, ARMAGEEDON, HARBINGER, MALEDICTION, SACRILEGE, ZEALOT, and the all-mighty ABSOLUTION. They are balanced sufficently. If you dont believe me, Go download ARMAGEDDON or ANY of Cown's movies. Note: Amarr is a fleet based race, that is where they shine so use them there. Originally by:* GinoShin Edited by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:47:00 - [33] Originally by: Saladin Originally by: Terianna Eri (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) Amarr ships that don't use capacitor based weapon systems like Motherships and Carriers still have far more cap than the other races. On the issue of Tracking Disruptors: CCP should not have made them affect fall off unless tracking enhancers and tracking computers boosted fall off. The change might go through this time, but with time it will get changed again when their incompetence catches up with them. AC fitted ships are not that range limited as you claim them to be. Various reasons: 1) Range independent ammo: in ACs ammo varies dmg type and DPS, not range, cause variations are practically minimal. 2) Built-in Range bonuses for given ammo types. Should TE/TCs affect fall-off as well, projectile ammo should be re-balanced so that current ranges without TD effects could remain the same. Under TD effect tho, that shouldn't give any advantages at all - should it? And you wouldn't want that? Would you? ACs are not the close range limited weapon platform. DPS and range wise are pretty much balanced vs. lasers considering that they use no cap, and can easily out-range blasters. Long range minmatar fits would become overpowered should TC/TE's boosted fall-off as well as optimal with the same script. Cause arties surely don't lack range, do they? This whole "TDs are overpowered without counters" whine-wagon is completely wrong, cause practically there are no "counters" that wouldn't ruin current effective PvP ranges apart from a anti-TD dedicated module ala ECCM that NO-ONE would fit - admit it. So enough with this "scam": the only thing that has no counters is AC range, and now that's going to be fixed. Otherwise the Rook pilots should whine, requesting an anti-ECCM bonus built in to their ECM amplifiers and amarrians for an anti-NOS effectiveness bonus built in cap relays!
nihlanth	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:08:00 - [34] Edited by: nihlanth on 14/02/2008 17:12:27 It's been two weeks, so where's the new dev blog on this 'boost'? Plz, dont let me tremble with anticipation daily for too long, CCP, or I may develop parkinsons' disease or seizures. Now, we wouldnt want that do happen do we? *Collapses on floor, shaking, and foaming at the mouth**
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:38:00 - [35] Originally by: Terianna Eri Well, I fly Amarr and I've gotten pretty sick of hearing people say "Train Caldari / Minmatar / Gallente." So.... Train Amarr. (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) QFT. Train amarr. I mean youve gone after FOTM before (thats why you havent trained amarr out of all races) so whats the problem now?
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:42:00 - [36] Originally by: nihlanth Edited by: nihlanth on 14/02/2008 17:12:27 It's been two weeks, so where's the new dev blog on this 'boost'? Plz, dont let me tremble with anticipation daily for too long, CCP, or I may develop parkinsons' disease or seizures. Now, we wouldnt want that do happen do we? *Collapses on floor, shaking, and foaming at the mouth** Good boosts, zealot+omen get an extra turret, apoc gets cap bonus built in and a range bonus. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=537 --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Bruce Deorum http://myeve.eve-online.com/feed/rdfdevblog.asp Anyway I think this is getting lame. Patch after patch, i havent seen anything good on our people. Need some morale boost, tell me why we're still better? You got a huge boost to EMP ammo, wich is quite commonly used. Tank has been nerfed for ALL races. What are you exactly complaining about? That amarr gets FIXES? No, its not a real boost, its a FIX that has been long over due....aprox 2-3 years tbh. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:53:00 - [38] Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 14/02/2008 16:27:43 Edited by: Saladin on 14/02/2008 16:27:09 Originally by: Terianna Eri (P.S. Amarr don't really have more cap stability than any other race even before we account for weapon use, and the blog didn't give us any explosive damage. That was just one of the examples of player suggestions.) Amarr ships that don't use capacitor based weapon systems like Motherships and Carriers still have far more cap than the other races. On the issue of Tracking Disruptors: CCP should not have made them affect fall off unless tracking enhancers and tracking computers boosted fall off. The change might go through this time, but with time it will get changed again when their incompetence catches up with them. Since you evidently either ignored, not understood or havent read 1000 replies about the TDs Im going to put it simple for you why: TEs and TCs affecting fall off would be like giving minmatar AC boats damage mods in mids and lows without stack penalty to gyros. ACs already have fall off rigs. Be glad that these work as extra dmg mods already. Dont ask for more. The added fall off effect of TDs is a FIX, not a boost. Thats the way they should have worked and TDs are now more inline with other EW. Its fine. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:09:00 - [39] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Since you evidently either ignored, not understood or havent read 1000 replies about the TDs Im going to put it simple for you why: TEs and TCs affecting fall off would be like giving minmatar AC boats damage mods in mids and lows without stack penalty to gyros. ACs already have fall off rigs. Be glad that these work as extra dmg mods already. Dont ask for more. Since you evidently either ignored, not understood or havent read 1000 replies about the TDs Im going to put it simple for you why: TEs and TCs affecting optimal would be like giving Amarr laser boats damage mods in mids and lows without stack penalty to heatsinks. Lasers already have Optimal and falloff rigs and lots of variation in T1 and T2 range ammo. Be glad that these work as extra dmg mods already. Dont ask for more. ... Quote: The added fall off effect of TDs is a FIX, not a boost. Thats the way they should have worked and TDs are now more inline with other EW. Its fine. I agree - that is the way they should always have worked.... but that Minmatar simply do not have a viable counter to tracking disruption. You say that falloff rigs and barrage affect falloff - and that's true. But that's all that affects falloff - and even with the current situation, you dance on the edge of web range using barrage. A single unbonused TD takes minmatar damage to 0 outside of the no-fly-zone-of-death. Why are you so opposed to balanced ewar? The way that they have proposed TD's makes them 100% uncounterable when using autocannons. Lasers can counter TD's, Hybrids can counter TD's, and missiles and drones are completely immune to them. Autocannons, however (as with all things minmatar I suppose) have a simple on-off switch. You're already getting the next FOTM, you don't need to make it even stronger with uncounterable ewar. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:16:00 - [40] Originally by: Liang Nuren TEs and TCs affecting optimal would be like giving Amarr laser boats damage mods in mids and lows without stack penalty to heatsinks. Lasers already have Optimal and falloff rigs and lots of variation in T1 and T2 range ammo. Be glad that these work as extra dmg mods already. Dont ask for more. Lets look at a vaga and a zealot. Scram range is 24km = engagement range in small combat. For vaga a falloff boost is a damage boost at range 0-24km. For zealot added range and falloff is zero damage boost. Do you understand the difference? Originally by: Liang Nuren Why are you so opposed to balanced ewar? The way that they have proposed TD's makes them 100% uncounterable when using autocannons. We cant counter TPs or 40km Webs either. The only counter for these is: Kill the EW ship. Same goes for AC boats. Go close to your enemy, wich is no prob because minmatar have fast ships, and kill the EW ship. Its fine, its balanced. Originally by: Liang Nuren A single unbonused TD takes minmatar damage to 0 outside of the no-fly-zone-of-death This needs an adjustment, everyone agrees with this. Same as ecm: Nerf TDs but boost the bonus on amarr ew bonused ships. Originally by: Liang Nuren You're already getting the next FOTM, you don't need to make it even stronger with uncounterable ewar. You never whined about ecm drones or ecm? You can say what you want but both ecm and ecm drones are as uncounterable as TDs on ACs. Atleast ACs can fly in close and kill their target. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:40:00 - [41] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 14/02/2008 18:40:12 Not to ridicule this whole discussion but can anybody who ever fitted several tcs/tes on his amarr ship to counter tracking disruptors please raise his hand? No one? Sure? Ok. Case closed?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Lets look at a vaga and a zealot. Scram range is 24km = engagement range in small combat. For vaga a falloff boost is a damage boost at range 0-24km. For zealot added range and falloff is zero damage boost. Do you understand the difference? Scram range <= 30km... I tend to run with faction disruptors as a counter to regular heavy neuts. Quote: We cant counter TPs or 40km Webs either. Webs are (somewhat) countered by MWDs and ABs. TP's are lol... r u srs? Comparing a mod that might increase the damage you take to a mod that turns your damage into 0% of what it was? Quote: This needs an adjustment, everyone agrees with this. Same as ecm: Nerf TDs but boost the bonus on amarr ew bonused ships. I don't see that CCP has responded to any thread stating that they are going to fix that. Obviously, they need a bit more prodding. Quote: You never whined about ecm drones or ecm? You can say what you want but both ecm and ecm drones are as uncounterable as TDs on ACs. Atleast ACs can fly in close and kill their target. ECCM works on ECM and ECM drones - there is a counter that is available to everyone (whether they fit it or not). TD's, however, do not have a counter. Please note that I'm OK with Amarr recons completely shutting down turrets of all varieties (though I still feel that TC's and TE's should affect falloff). -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 19:22:00 - [43] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/02/2008 19:23:15 Originally by: Liang Nuren Scram range <= 30km... I tend to run with faction disruptors as a counter to regular heavy neuts. My statement is still true. A zealot has inherently 30+km range anyway with HP scorch. Originally by: Liang Nuren Webs are (somewhat) countered by MWDs and ABs. TP's are lol... r u srs? Comparing a mod that might increase the damage you take to a mod that turns your damage into 0% of what it was? Uhm, turning MWD on is just asking to paint a huge crosshair on your ship. Its not a good counter, more a last ditch effort to reach gate/enemy before you got pop. ABs have too little boost to make a difference while webbed. Originally by: Liang Nuren ECCM works on ECM and ECM drones - there is a counter that is available to everyone (whether they fit it or not). TD's, however, do not have a counter. People mostly use ECM drones in empire wars and low sec = smartbombs are out the window most of the times. Its not a good enough counter. You might argue though that the problem lies within ecm drones and their imbalance. ECCM is a weak module that you only fit when you know youre going up against ecm heavy gangs/fleets. ECCM doesnt boost ANYTHING else. It just gives you weak protection. Its basically not even worth considering to fit on anything except a battleship anyway and even overloaded ECCMs on BSs tend to get jammed by silly medium ecm drones way too often. Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:14:00 - [44] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/02/2008 19:23:15 ECCM is a weak module that you only fit when you know youre going up against ecm heavy gangs/fleets. ECCM doesnt boost ANYTHING else. It just gives you weak protection. Its basically not even worth considering to fit on anything except a battleship anyway and even overloaded ECCMs on BSs tend to get jammed by silly medium ecm drones way too often. Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. eccm is the counter to ecm,but ecm drones have two counters... I recently fought a skilled pilot in an astarte with my abso 1 on 1(yes a rare fight but a fight nonetheless)I lasted long enough to lock and destroy every one of his ecm drones with my weapons and kill him,smartbombs do work even in highsec-lowsec when 5km away or 10km depending on the size of the said device,fofs also work against the said drones as do your own drones. Trust me,ecm drones arent as good as they might seem to you. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:18:00 - [45] Originally by: goodby4u Trust me,ecm drones arent as good as they might seem to you. In 1vs1 situations is pretty much the only time you have time to lock each drone and shoot it. The thing is, in a 1vs1 ecm drones then work as a stab, wich is also stupid. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:21:00 - [46] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: goodby4u Trust me,ecm drones arent as good as they might seem to you. In 1vs1 situations is pretty much the only time you have time to lock each drone and shoot it. The thing is, in a 1vs1 ecm drones then work as a stab, wich is also stupid. I always kill them first so he cannot run,as for more then 1v1 yeah they can be affective against the one said person but smartbombs still take care of them/fofs/your drones/your gang mates. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:25:00 - [47] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. ECM at least has a counter that's available to everyone. TD's don't after the patch. They both act as a damage reduction. There is an imbalance, and to fix it, TC's and TE's should affect falloff. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:28:00 - [48] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. ECM at least has a counter that's available to everyone. TD's don't after the patch. They both act as a damage reduction. There is an imbalance, and to fix it, TC's and TE's should affect falloff. -Liang Fall off rigs. Think of it the other way. Fall off rigs are the only rigs that give you damage bonus in your typical area of operation for most ACs. Wich other rig gives that for lasers? -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:28:00 - [49] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. ECM at least has a counter that's available to everyone. TD's don't after the patch. They both act as a damage reduction. There is an imbalance, and to fix it, TC's and TE's should affect falloff. -Liang Though I agree It might be bad to see vagas getting falloff ranges of 40km,at the same time if they can only be used to counter the falloff TD then most speed tanked/falloff using ships probably wont even use them. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:32:00 - [50] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Fall off rigs. Think of it the other way. Fall off rigs are the only rigs that give you damage bonus in your typical area of operation for most ACs. Wich other rig gives that for lasers? Falloff rigs (which give pulse more affect than optimal rigs give AC's), optimal rigs (if you need them), tracking rigs (since you people whine so much about tracking), etc. All of the rigs that affect guns without affecting the damage mod (hs/gyro/mfs/bcu) stats boost damage in some way. It's not as though projectiles are unique in this - but they are unique in not having a counter to a TD. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:34:00 - [51] Originally by: goodby4u Though I agree It might be bad to see vagas getting falloff ranges of 40km,at the same time if they can only be used to counter the falloff TD then most speed tanked/falloff using ships probably wont even use them. The Vagabond will still be dealing less damage than the Zealot, even if it had 40km falloff. Also, 40km falloff is outside of warp disruptor range. I can see why it gives people pause - but it's far worse to completely nerf all non-falloff bonused Minmatar ships in the game. Or are we going to now trade the ROF bonus for a falloff bonuus on all ships so that Amarr can have it's uncounterable Ewar? -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:42:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: goodby4u Though I agree It might be bad to see vagas getting falloff ranges of 40km,at the same time if they can only be used to counter the falloff TD then most speed tanked/falloff using ships probably wont even use them. The Vagabond will still be dealing less damage than the Zealot, even if it had 40km falloff. Also, 40km falloff is outside of warp disruptor range. I can see why it gives people pause - but it's far worse to completely nerf all non-falloff bonused Minmatar ships in the game. Or are we going to now trade the ROF bonus for a falloff bonuus on all ships so that Amarr can have it's uncounterable Ewar? -Liang 1. It has a counter, its your choice not to fit them. They are called falloff rigs. 2. It doesn't nerf Minmatar ships. They have both the most spare med slots and the least cap dependent tank and gun operations in the game. They also are the easiest to fit CPU wise of any ships in the game bar Caldari. Originally by: Liang Nuren TEs and TCs affecting optimal would be like giving Amarr laser boats damage mods in mids and lows without stack penalty to heatsinks. Lasers already have Optimal and falloff rigs and lots of variation in T1 and T2 range ammo. Be glad that these work as extra dmg mods already. Dont ask for more. ... No, its not. Ive explained why this is to you in simple english in the othe r19 page thread. followyour own advice and look it up.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:43:00 - [53] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: goodby4u Though I agree It might be bad to see vagas getting falloff ranges of 40km,at the same time if they can only be used to counter the falloff TD then most speed tanked/falloff using ships probably wont even use them. The Vagabond will still be dealing less damage than the Zealot, even if it had 40km falloff. Also, 40km falloff is outside of warp disruptor range. I can see why it gives people pause - but it's far worse to completely nerf all non-falloff bonused Minmatar ships in the game. Or are we going to now trade the ROF bonus for a falloff bonuus on all ships so that Amarr can have it's uncounterable Ewar? -Liang Have you ever seen a falcon jam a zealot?Sure we have eccms but seriously nobody can or will fit them on their zealots because of the lack of mids and it has no real bonuses to that ship outside of that specific fight. Tracking computers with a falloff bonus will be treated the same way with vagas/falloff using ships and if they give a huge bonus(50% to falloff)the vaga will be able to hit things far outside scram range,this might not sound bad and it isnt 1v1 but with nano gangs that gives the vaga the ability to hit targets while in retreat which is a big difference over its current state. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:48:00 - [54] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Conclusion, ecm doesnt have a good enough counter either. ECM at least has a counter that's available to everyone. TD's don't after the patch. They both act as a damage reduction. There is an imbalance, and to fix it, TC's and TE's should affect falloff. -Liang Well ECM does shut down pretty much everything besides FoF missles, and drone aggro. TDs are useless versus missle systems, so treat them as equals isn't exactly fair. Also from an Amarrian point of view, hardly any vessels can fit an unbonused TD because they have few mid slots. The only ships that will fit them will be the bonused ships, and they should have devastating effects on turrents. However races like Minmatar, Gallente could fit them if they prove to be that effective. If that's the case, that they become the new FOTM, the nerf will follow. If that doesn't occur, then it's really a non-issue. Also Minmatar have natural advantages over Amarr, so why shouldn't amarr have something on Minmatar? Your natural t2 resistances to em are still going to be 90% post patch. ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:52:00 - [55] Originally by: Liang Nuren Falloff rigs (which give pulse more affect than optimal rigs give AC's), optimal rigs (if you need them), tracking rigs (since you people whine so much about tracking), etc. All of the rigs that affect guns without affecting the damage mod (hs/gyro/mfs/bcu) stats boost damage in some way. It's not as though projectiles are unique in this - but they are unique in not having a counter to a TD. -Liang This has been explained enough in the other threads. You really should look it up. Ill keep it short because its pita to repeat the same thing a thousand times. Lasers that get a falloff+opti boost only get more range and no boost to their damage within the old range. ACs that get a falloff+opti boost get a damage boost through the WHOLE falloff range (wich is pretty much all their range) and extra range. The TEs and TCs also give tracking wich is a damage boost to both. ACs benefit way too much from modules like that. As I said, be glad you have falloff rigs because they are powerful and lasers DONT have something that is comparable to it. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:55:00 - [56] Originally by: Liang Nuren The Vagabond will still be dealing less damage than the Zealot, even if it had 40km falloff. Also, 40km falloff is outside of warp disruptor range. I can see why it gives people pause - but it's far worse to completely nerf all non-falloff bonused Minmatar ships in the game. Or are we going to now trade the ROF bonus for a falloff bonuus on all ships so that Amarr can have it's uncounterable Ewar? -Liang A vagabond should always deal less damage then a zealot. There is something called dps/speed ratio balance in eve. My comparison was more about the fact that vagabond will get a boost in dps while a ship like zealot wont in its 24-30km engagement range in small battles. To give minmatar TCs and TEs that affect their falloff and giving some ships imbalanced dps is a much larger balance issue then 4 ships total ingame that can mess up falloff based weapons. Something there is a counter for wich every AC boats fits anyways: Falloff rig. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Yargo Metash Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:09:00 - [57] IMO the TD issue will need to be seen in action before I can judge it, on one hand I'm concerned, on the other, I don't really care. As to the OP, I started up an Amarr alt recently, to see how they handle, getting a feel for the race. (currently only up to a Coercer and having to keep an eye on my cap is interesting.) The EM resist nerf I'm not worried about. It affects everyone, not just amarr, so it's both a boost/nerf. Min still have speed (And I doubt it'll be taken away unless it's in the form of an MWD adjustment) and still have their rusty metal/duct tape charm. And if you don't like that, train another race. And if you reallllly need a moral boost, then Min players still get a wide spread of skills while Amarr just get heavy Mechanic/Gunnery. (in terms of soldiers. I Was rather annoyed that I didn't have any Nav skills when I started as Amarr. Just personal, not that there's a problem there )
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:33:00 - [58] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Lets look at a vaga and a zealot. Scram range is 24km = engagement range in small combat. For vaga a falloff boost is a damage boost at range 0-24km. For zealot added range and falloff is zero damage boost. Do you understand the difference? You're forgetting that those TEs require slots, slots which typically are not empty waiting for TEs to get changed. a TE with 15% falloff mod outdamages a 3rd gyro only after 22km or so, on vagabond with 1 falloff rig fitted (carb + 1 falloff seems somewhat common), so much for 'imbalanced dps'. Replacing a second gyro (2gyro vaga is pretty common) with TE is even worse. So no, vaga doesn't get a damage boost from 0-24km, replacing 3rd gyro gets you less damage 0-22km and more damage at 22-24km. Obviously if you're replacing 2nd gyro, you'll be even worse off. Quote: Think of it the other way. Fall off rigs are the only rigs that give you damage bonus in your typical area of operation for most ACs. Wich other rig gives that for lasers? Optimal rig. 15% longer mf range etc is a damage boost and same for next best crystal and so forth until you switch to scorch. If you have tracking issues with scorch (or don't have t2 guns) then optimal rig is going to be an overall damage boost pretty much all the way from end of unbonused mf range upto your maximum range with faction crystals.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:41:00 - [59] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer To give minmatar TCs and TEs that affect their falloff and giving some ships imbalanced dps is a much larger balance issue then 4 ships total ingame that can mess up falloff based weapons. Something there is a counter for wich every AC boats fits anyways: Falloff rig. First, there are lots of ships that are able to fit an unbonused tracking disruptor. Even these will take DPS to 0, even for falloff bonused ships fighting with Barrage and falloff rigs - and this is for unbonused TD's! Bonused TD's really will have no counter at all (even though you as Amarr, Caldari, and Gallente do have multiple counters to it). There really is a no-fly-zone inside overheated web range for most AC ships. Also, if almost every AC ship fits falloff rigs already, just so that they can stay competative with the other ships of the same class, it's hardly a counter. It's simply a mandatory mod that allows the use of the guns outside of the zone of 100% death - and even then it's only just barely outside that zone of death in most cases. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:44:00 - [60] Originally by: Trigos Trilobi Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Lets look at a vaga and a zealot. Scram range is 24km = engagement range in small combat. For vaga a falloff boost is a damage boost at range 0-24km. For zealot added range and falloff is zero damage boost. Do you understand the difference? You're forgetting that those TEs require slots, slots which typically are not empty waiting for TEs to get changed. a TE with 15% falloff mod outdamages a 3rd gyro only after 22km or so, on vagabond with 1 falloff rig fitted (carb + 1 falloff seems somewhat common), so much for 'imbalanced dps'. Replacing a second gyro (2gyro vaga is pretty common) with TE is even worse. So no, vaga doesn't get a damage boost from 0-24km, replacing 3rd gyro gets you less damage 0-22km and more damage at 22-24km. Obviously if you're replacing 2nd gyro, you'll be even worse off. Quote: Think of it the other way. Fall off rigs are the only rigs that give you damage bonus in your typical area of operation for most ACs. Wich other rig gives that for lasers? Optimal rig. 15% longer mf range etc is a damage boost and same for next best crystal and so forth until you switch to scorch. If you have tracking issues with scorch (or don't have t2 guns) then optimal rig is going to be an overall damage boost pretty much all the way from end of unbonused mf range upto your maximum range with faction crystals. Uhm. You know scorch and multifrequency are the only options for pulses. If you dont, welcome to amarr eve. So....NO, optimal rigs dont give amarr damage boosts when they have T2 guns. Try fitting a vaga with 2 gyros and 1 TE or 2 gyros and 2 TEs. With 2 polies in rig slots and rest of the low slots going for speed mods its still going to be fast but with pretty wicked damage. Ofcourse you cant remove the "2nd" gyro and think a TE is going to make up for it. We playing the same game, yes? -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:49:00 - [61] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/02/2008 21:49:35 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer To give minmatar TCs and TEs that affect their falloff and giving some ships imbalanced dps is a much larger balance issue then 4 ships total ingame that can mess up falloff based weapons. Something there is a counter for wich every AC boats fits anyways: Falloff rig. First, there are lots of ships that are able to fit an unbonused tracking disruptor. Even these will take DPS to 0, even for falloff bonused ships fighting with Barrage and falloff rigs - and this is for unbonused TD's! Bonused TD's really will have no counter at all (even though you as Amarr, Caldari, and Gallente do have multiple counters to it). There really is a no-fly-zone inside overheated web range for most AC ships. Also, if almost every AC ship fits falloff rigs already, just so that they can stay competative with the other ships of the same class, it's hardly a counter. It's simply a mandatory mod that allows the use of the guns outside of the zone of 100% death - and even then it's only just barely outside that zone of death in most cases. -Liang What death zone are you btw talking about? Against caldari and amarr AC boats go close to do more damage respectively more dmg + mess up opponents tracking. Against blasters is the only enemy ACs stay out of web ranges. If you ignore this option then its your loss. If you are sad because your nano cant go close to something bigger then you that uses pulses, then its your loss. Fit a real ship instead of a nano, dont blame TDs or ACs. As I said before, TDs should be changed to be only viable on the 4 bonused amarr ships. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Terianna Eri Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:49:00 - [62] To those of you talking about Amarr fitting rigs for lasers: Are you insane? I'd be thrilled if I had the powergrid to make fitting laser rigs feasible. __________________________________
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:50:00 - [63] Originally by: Terianna Eri To those of you talking about Amarr fitting rigs for lasers: Are you insane? I'd be thrilled if I had the powergrid to make fitting laser rigs feasible. This too is a good point. The added pg requirement is a joke on ACs while on pulses its pretty stupid. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:59:00 - [64] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm. You know scorch and multifrequency are the only options for pulses. If you dont, welcome to amarr eve. So....NO, optimal rigs dont give amarr damage boosts when they have T2 guns. Even if you really only had 2 crystals, optimal rig is still a damage boost for 15% past multifreq range. Is it worth it, most likely not, but it's still there, so you can't claim that optimal rig doesn't give a damage boost. Quote: Try fitting a vaga with 2 gyros and 1 TE or 2 gyros and 2 TEs. With 2 polies in rig slots and rest of the low slots going for speed mods its still going to be fast but with pretty wicked damage. So, you want to take my carb+falloff rig fit with 2 gyros, replace falloff rig with carb and a speed mod with TE. You know how much better falloff you got? Approximately 0 meters. Toss in another TE? You'll be sitting at exactly the same falloff I compared above to a 3gyro1rig fit, which means you're still doing worse damage at 0-22km.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:01:00 - [65] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm. You know scorch and multifrequency are the only options for pulses. If you dont, welcome to amarr eve. So....NO, optimal rigs dont give amarr damage boosts when they have T2 guns. Then there's RF EMP and Barrage for AC's (and RF EMP only if you're brave enough to venture into the no-fly-zone-of-death). In most cases, Barrage is only barely long ranged enough as it is (barring falloff bonused ships). Optimal rigs will help with your DPS actually... just that you're choosing to say that somehow the Zealot stops dealing damage at scram range, while the Vaga keeps on going. Optimal rigs are futhermore yet another counter to TD's for laser users. Quote: Try fitting a vaga with 2 gyros and 1 TE or 2 gyros and 2 TEs. With 2 polies in rig slots and rest of the low slots going for speed mods its still going to be fast but with pretty wicked damage. I've done the comparison of damage, TE's are not impressive enough to warrant using them over a second or third gyro. The tracking is nice, but you aren't likely to hit anything with your MWD on anyway. Quote: Ofcourse you cant remove the "2nd" gyro and think a TE is going to make up for it. We playing the same game, yes? Last I checked we were, which makes me wonder why you're so vehemently defending a 100% guaranteed damage eliminating module against an entire class of gun - but no other. Arguing against any sort of defense or counter to either bonused or unbonused TD's! Could it be some sort of "vengeance" for AC's being "immune" to TD's up until now? I think it is! -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:02:00 - [66] Originally by: Terianna Eri To those of you talking about Amarr fitting rigs for lasers: Are you insane? I'd be thrilled if I had the powergrid to make fitting laser rigs feasible. Funny, I'd be thrilled if I had a counter for TD's.... funny that they seem to not exist. No, Falloff rigs are not a counter when they are already mandatory on the ship. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:16:00 - [67] Originally by: Liang Nuren Could it be some sort of "vengeance" for AC's being "immune" to TD's up until now? I think it is! -Liang Well Im done with this thread. If you dont want to see why ACs work differently and this isnt just solved and balanced by giving TEs and TCs falloff effects, then I cant help you either. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:22:00 - [68] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well Im done with this thread. If you dont want to see why ACs work differently and this isnt just solved and balanced by giving TEs and TCs falloff effects, then I cant help you either. Regardless of what balance issues that you feel will be brought up by adding those attributes, it is undeniable that they are required. You simply refuse to ackowledge that AC's really DO work differently than lasers. AC's are defenseless against this boost - but that suits you fine for some inexplicable reason. Maybe if you cared to ennumerate reasons why it's suddenly ok for TD's (even unbonused) to give a 100% guaranteed complete damage elimintation, then feel free. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:24:00 - [69] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer First, there are lots of ships that are able to fit an unbonused tracking disruptor. Even these will take DPS to 0, even for falloff bonused ships fighting with Barrage and falloff rigs - and this is for unbonused TD's! Bonused TD's really will have no counter at all (even though you as Amarr, Caldari, and Gallente do have multiple counters to it). There really is a no-fly-zone inside overheated web range for most AC ships. Also, if almost every AC ship fits falloff rigs already, just so that they can stay competative with the other ships of the same class, it's hardly a counter. It's simply a mandatory mod that allows the use of the guns outside of the zone of 100% death - and even then it's only just barely outside that zone of death in most cases. -Liang Liang, 0 Dps is an misleading over-statement. Even a Vaga gets 1/3-1/2 of it's 20km effective dps out of missiles and drones - weapons immune to TDs. The vaga is a very powerful ship that after being abused by almost half the "veteran" EVE community (1/4 is minmatar, the other 1/4 is cross training for it!), now gets some counters - DPS wise. Why so much commotion vs. the TD's affecting fall-off, while the Vaga loses way less DPS than a Zealot or even a short range eagle etc for example? Realize that THE ONLY THING THAT CURRENTLY DOES'T GET A COUNTER DISPITE THE FACT THAT A SPECIALIZED EWAR MODULE FOR THAT PURPOSE ALREADY EXISTS IS AC RANGE! Admit that you are acting like a spoiled child and stop filling the forums with un-based and imaginary arguments. What if I asked for an uber NOS boost for my curse? What if every rook pilot asked for an unbeatable ECM amplifier? Why was NOS nerfed? Why was ECM weakened? Why do these devs sometimes do sth actually for the shake of balance? @ Bruce Deorum: all these "Facts" that you quote out of the dev blog is what Amarr whiners ask for, un-aware of consequences. Not what the dev team suggests or will implement. EM res reduction, is a slight Amarr Boost, but affects all races more-or less. The least affected are actually T2 minmatar ships with their uber EM res. All other T1 ships of every race will suffer way more, while boosting a widely available and unique minmatar T1 ammo type. Apoc boost was fair - everybody, including Minmatar considered it as a mediocre ship - espesially after the Tier III BSs. Perhaps the new bonuses seam a bit "too much", but time will tell. Zealot changes: lol - its difficult to fit 4 FMPs or HPs in there, along with MWD and a repper or plate...5? A "lol" change. TD's: at least they affect some more ships...the 0 dps Liang mentions is sooooo unthoughtful... And why do you fear TD's so much? - "Cause they will force as to be within the overheated-web-zone whine-whine-whine..." So you are asking to "undo" or lessen one ewar effect, that affects less than 50% PvP ships currently, cause you are afraid of Webs? If you are afraid of webs, why TD's are the subject of discussion? WHY NOT ASKING FOR A WEB NERF THEN? Cause that's not in the scam-whine envelope...nerfing Webs? "Our-own-100%-effective-no-compromises-ewar"? NO WAY SIR!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:37:00 - [70] Originally by: Diomidis Liang, 0 Dps is an misleading over-statement. Even a Vaga gets 1/3-1/2 of it's 20km effective dps out of missiles and drones - weapons immune to TDs. The vaga is a very powerful ship that after being abused by almost half the "veteran" EVE community (1/4 is minmatar, the other 1/4 is cross training for it!), now gets some counters - DPS wise. The Vagabond is not so much on the mind as all the ships that lack a falloff bonus. Quote: Realize that THE ONLY THING THAT CURRENTLY DOES'T GET A COUNTER DISPITE THE FACT THAT A SPECIALIZED EWAR MODULE FOR THAT PURPOSE ALREADY EXISTS IS AC RANGE! I'm not arguing against TD's getting a falloff reduction. I'm 100% in favor of it - as long as it has a counter. Quote: Admit that you are acting like a spoiled child and stop filling the forums with un-based and imaginary arguments. What if I asked for an uber NOS boost for my curse? What if every rook pilot asked for an unbeatable ECM amplifier? Actually, I started off that thread and showed how close range ammo indeed has the Minmatar advantage (even as they claim it does), yet range ammo shows all other forms of damage having a clear victory over AC's. Web range is a no fly zone, and instant death for the much more fragile Minmatar ships. If you have to enter web range with pretty much any cruiser sized Minnie ship, you are going to die. Quote: EM res reduction, is a slight Amarr Boost, but affects all races more-or less. The least affected are actually T2 minmatar ships with their uber EM res. All other T1 ships of every race will suffer way more, while boosting a widely available and unique minmatar T1 ammo type. And that ammo type is pretty much useless, because it requires you to fly on the very edge of normal web range, let alone overheated. Quote: Apoc boost was fair - everybody, including Minmatar considered it as a mediocre ship - espesially after the Tier III BSs. Perhaps the new bonuses seam a bit "too much", but time will tell. Even Goumindong says the new Apoc is overpowered... but I supppose it's better than the POS it was. Quote: Zealot changes: lol - its difficult to fit 4 FMPs or HPs in there, along with MWD and a repper or plate...5? A "lol" change. Yeah, 5 will require a downgrade to FMP on most Zealots. I'm of the opinion that it needs moar fittings. Quote: TD's: at least they affect some more ships...the 0 dps Liang mentions is sooooo unthoughtful... Actually, it's more thoughtful than you give it credit for. If it pushes a ship without a falloff bonus into web range, then it really did push DPS to 0 - because those ships cannot ever afford to enter web range. Quote: And why do you fear TD's so much? Because they have no counter. Quote: So you are asking to "undo" or lessen one ewar effect, that affects less than 50% PvP ships currently, cause you are afraid of Webs? If you are afraid of webs, why TD's are the subject of discussion? I'm not asking to "undo" the affect of the boost. I'm asking for a counter. You're the one asking for a 100% uncounterable ewar system. Quote: WHY NOT ASKING FOR A WEB NERF THEN? Web range is supposed to be a 100% no fly zone. It's where you get held down and pounded into oblivion, and for it not to be that would affect Gallente far too much. They NEED webs to be that. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 23:35:00 - [71] Do I miss something when I believe that since Webbers are "standard", the fastest ship wins in 1vs1 situations? The same goes for TD's too: the longest ranged turret out of two under TD range, gets an the advantage. Last time I've checked, Minmatar ships where the fastest around. I didn't fail to notice that either Amarr have a significant range advantage using T1 ammo, nor blasters (for sure). Using T1 ammo, all turrets effectively fight within or close to the very edge of "normal" Web - aka 10km. Nothing "new" or unfavorable for Minmatar that far. In fact we all know that when it comes to T1 turret cruisers, Minmatar are very-very competent. Also split weapon configurations and adequate drone-bays assure that in a % basis, less overall effective DPS are actually disrupted on many Minmatar ships, unlike many-many Amarian ships - still you claim that the TD changes are un-counterable only to ACs thus un-balanced against Minmatar. U claim (A) TDs need a counter for ACs I claim (B) ACs need a range counter cause they are not inherently range crippled like Blasters - and use no cap on-top of that. Fact (A) needs to be proven in action. Fact (B) is proven already.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.14 23:39:00 - [72] Originally by: Diomidis Fact (A) needs to be proven in action. Fact (B) is proven already. In the standard case, "Fact B" is being addressed in the next patch. Fact A is an undeniable implication of fact B being resolved. Also, I like how you call a 5m^3 drone bay "adequate". -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Horeta	Posted - 2008.02.15 00:30:00 - [73] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer First, there are lots of ships that are able to fit an unbonused tracking disruptor. Even these will take DPS to 0, even for falloff bonused ships fighting with Barrage and falloff rigs - and this is for unbonused TD's! Bonused TD's really will have no counter at all (even though you as Amarr, Caldari, and Gallente do have multiple counters to it). There really is a no-fly-zone inside overheated web range for most AC ships. Also, if almost every AC ship fits falloff rigs already, just so that they can stay competative with the other ships of the same class, it's hardly a counter. It's simply a mandatory mod that allows the use of the guns outside of the zone of 100% death - and even then it's only just barely outside that zone of death in most cases. -Liang Liang, 0 Dps is an misleading over-statement. Even a Vaga gets 1/3-1/2 of it's 20km effective dps out of missiles and drones - weapons immune to TDs. The vaga is a very powerful ship that after being abused by almost half the "veteran" EVE community (1/4 is minmatar, the other 1/4 is cross training for it!), now gets some counters - DPS wise. Why so much commotion vs. the TD's affecting fall-off, while the Vaga loses way less DPS than a Zealot or even a short range eagle etc for example? Realize that THE ONLY THING THAT CURRENTLY DOES'T GET A COUNTER DISPITE THE FACT THAT A SPECIALIZED EWAR MODULE FOR THAT PURPOSE ALREADY EXISTS IS AC RANGE! Admit that you are acting like a spoiled child and stop filling the forums with un-based and imaginary arguments. What if I asked for an uber NOS boost for my curse? What if every rook pilot asked for an unbeatable ECM amplifier? Why was NOS nerfed? Why was ECM weakened? Why do these devs sometimes do sth actually for the shake of balance? @ Bruce Deorum: all these "Facts" that you quote out of the dev blog is what Amarr whiners ask for, un-aware of consequences. Not what the dev team suggests or will implement. EM res reduction, is a slight Amarr Boost, but affects all races more-or less. The least affected are actually T2 minmatar ships with their uber EM res. All other T1 ships of every race will suffer way more, while boosting a widely available and unique minmatar T1 ammo type. Apoc boost was fair - everybody, including Minmatar considered it as a mediocre ship - espesially after the Tier III BSs. Perhaps the new bonuses seam a bit "too much", but time will tell. Zealot changes: lol - its difficult to fit 4 FMPs or HPs in there, along with MWD and a repper or plate...5? A "lol" change. TD's: at least they affect some more ships...the 0 dps Liang mentions is sooooo unthoughtful... And why do you fear TD's so much? - "Cause they will force as to be within the overheated-web-zone whine-whine-whine..." So you are asking to "undo" or lessen one ewar effect, that affects less than 50% PvP ships currently, cause you are afraid of Webs? If you are afraid of webs, why TD's are the subject of discussion? WHY NOT ASKING FOR A WEB NERF THEN? Cause that's not in the scam-whine envelope...nerfing Webs? "Our-own-100%-effective-no-compromises-ewar"? NO WAY SIR! owned
joshmorris Silver Snake Enterprise SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:17:00 - [74] Isnt it sorta a buff for minmatar aswell ? All them ships that use emp have a dps increase on shields AND armor. And using barrage now has increased dps on shield. Personally i think that the whole decrease resistance thing was good. But .... buffing / nerfing / changing a load of ship slot layouts combined with this spells disaster. Most amarr lazer ships are getting double buffs which in the end is gonna make them overpowered and just adds more bs to balance. Uber idea solves all !!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:18:00 - [75] Originally by: Liang Nuren Funny, I'd be thrilled if I had a counter for TD's.... funny that they seem to not exist. No, Falloff rigs are not a counter when they are already mandatory on the ship. -Liang Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:35:00 - [76] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Diomidis Fact (A) needs to be proven in action. Fact (B) is proven already. In the standard case, "Fact B" is being addressed in the next patch. Fact A is an undeniable implication of fact B being resolved. Also, I like how you call a 5m^3 drone bay "adequate". -Liang Well...let's leave the ACs with no range "counter" then, immune to their RP sworn enemies ewar module that range disrupts just "other" turrets. Wait - ad some TD counters built in to TDs/TEs too, so that this "uninterpretable" Minmatar advantage (let me count: speed, cap-less weapons and now range - not counting fitting requirements) works even better...cause everything needs a counter, right? Short of MWDs where invented to counter webs And please, let me try to smell my fingernails in order to solve the big mystery of "which ship gets 5m^3 drone bay"...let me guess - the Stabber? Sure...you pwned my weak "Arguements" of spit weapon systems... The Stabber gets just one light drone and 2 launchers...this poor bastard is weak... But what about the Bellicose or the Rupture? With 50% of their hard points for launchers and "adequate" drone bays? Oh, wait - 2/3 is not "enough" for you? Then surely roughly 20% average advantage in base speed is neither good enough. Poor things...HMLs never gave me enough range either... The only non-drone dedicated ship that has "more" drones is the Thorax, which otherwise would be "impossible" to fight against any ship with a webber - non overheated. And the Thorax/Blasters are weaker to TDs than ACs in these situations. Each and every Minmatar cruiser can dedicate range vs. a Thorax - unless we are talking noob-vs.-veteran situations = no need to talk at all. Com on...drop this scam argument "everything else has a counter but TDs vs. ACs" already... "head you lose, tail I win" - tossing a coin that is...ACs are overpowered against TDs in current state, compared to other turrets. Face it, admit it, adapt to it...learn why these darn ML hardpoints and drone bays are there ffs.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:39:00 - [77] Originally by: Diomidis Face it, admit it, adapt to it... /signed -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Rashmika Sky	Posted - 2008.02.15 02:07:00 - [78] Tracking Disruptors should shut down all turrets. Maybe there shouldn't be a counter, because even without one, tracking disruptors have the severe weakness of only countering one of three main weapon types (turrets, missiles, drones), unlike ECM and sensor dampeners. Also unlike ECM and sensor dampeners, they do not counter ewar, while both of those can counter tracking disruptors. Yes, many ships have a focus on turrets, and have trouble with tracking disruptors - Amarr ships, most of all, as they are mostly laser platforms with no versatility in fitting. The other races are far more capable of dealing with tracking disruption by using non-turret weapons, than Amarr. So far as tracking disruptors/counters go, for Minmatar... aren't Minmatar the ones that always go on about needing to train every weapon type to be effective, because their ships use them all? So... use them all! Your ships are versatile, unlike Amarr ships. If everyone starts fitting tracking disruptors, Caldari and Minmatar will be best off (then Gallente, and ironically, Amarr will be worst off). But in the end, this whole scare over tracking disruptors is absurd. ECM will still be used more, and it will counter tracking disruptors. I've never seen anybody say "don't bring the Blackbird, we have tracking disruptors". But I have seen it the other way around. ECM is far superior, and even sensor dampeners are more appreciated. The fact is, Minmatar got off lighter than everyone else for far too long, and that's why they're scared - they don't realize how superior other ewar is to tracking disruption, and how unlikely they are to run into people that use tracking disruptors. Right now they fear tracking disruptors will be used by everyone, now that it also effects their turrets, but they are wrong. So long as there are missiles and drones, and ECM and sensor dampeners, they will be wrong. I suppose, if Minmatar really feel their weapons have too much of a disadvantage... they could fit lasers on their ships. The grass is always greener. ;) -Rash
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.15 02:08:00 - [79] Here we go again... Quote: learn why these darn ML hardpoints and drone bays are there ffs. Where are those huge dronebays you keep talking about? Rupture? Stabber? Hurricane? Hmm, the Cyclone or Bellicose have really big dronebays... oh wait Just to repeat again, what needs to be done is changing TC/TE with a falloff modifier, nothing else. It's the direct counter module to TDs, just look at the attributes and tell me it isn't, and therefor needs to be changed as well. If you think this is wrong, please elaborate why every optimal based turret should get a selection of 2 modules and 1 rig, while falloff based turrets get only a rig (which isn't a counter as we discussed already too many times).
AstroPhobic Minmatar Port Royal Independent Kontractors Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.15 02:12:00 - [80] Originally by: Diomidis ACs are not the close range limited weapon platform. DPS and range wise are pretty much balanced vs. lasers considering that they use no cap, and can easily out-range blasters. Long range minmatar fits would become overpowered should TC/TE's boosted fall-off as well as optimal with the same script. Cause arties surely don't lack range, do they? This whole "TDs are overpowered without counters" whine-wagon is completely wrong, cause practically there are no "counters" that wouldn't ruin current effective PvP ranges apart from a anti-TD dedicated module ala ECCM that NO-ONE would fit - admit it. So enough with this "scam": the only thing that has no counters is AC range, and now that's going to be fixed. Otherwise the Rook pilots should whine, requesting an anti-ECCM bonus built in to their ECM amplifiers and amarrians for an anti-NOS effectiveness bonus built in cap relays! Surely you kid. Autocannons live in falloff, where damage is considerably lower, not to mention the current missing damage amount from the higher end ammos. You're streching 30km TOPS with rigs and level 5'd ship bonus. That's half damage of a lower-damage close range weapon system. Arties have become the worst long-range gun system after the HP boost, DPS wise. The alpha power is great, sure, if you're in a fleet with multiple arty boats. In anything smaller, you notice that DPS is on the low end, and the alpha power was... well cut in half. Instapopping un-tanked cruisers is a major feat, even with quake and fully ganked pest. The range for 1400mm IIs with Tremor is about 160, fully skilled. So they aren't exactly the longest range guns. Anyway, the thing with autocannons, is they can be modified to touch you at ranges that short range guns tend to not (Who says that a lower damage mid range gun is bad?), but at MUCH less DPS. They have less DPS than blasters to start with (can't comment on pulses, don't fly amarr), but as you move into falloff, it just goes down and down. Nanoships that fit ACs don't have excellent DPS - not even good DPS. A vagabond is really pathetic DPS wise, but they're seen as "overpowered" because of their survivability. Next time you come across a small nano gang of 4-5, get a ship with a decent tank and just laugh, they won't be able to break it. Astro
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.02.15 02:24:00 - [81] Originally by: Bruce Deorum http://myeve.eve-online.com/feed/rdfdevblog.asp I know i know, But as a minmatar, i hate to see a whole blog like Amarr needs more cap Amarr needs more slots Amarr needs explosive damage (ffs) Amarr needs firepower And all we get is a tracking disruptor that affects our falloff & getting instead of 92.5 EMrez 90. This is big difference. (we already had a crappy range, forced to fight in falloff - less real DPS - no easy wayz to enhance falloff) and the only priviledge we had was that falloff was unaffacted by disruption (and that it is the same if u use 180mms, 220mm, or 425mm, guns). Anyway I think this is getting lame. Patch after patch, i havent seen anything good on our people. Need some morale boost, tell me why we're still better? Yeah, with every ship packing 1-2 TDs now, you're boned. Especially as those TDs won't affect eg: blasters. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2008.02.15 03:20:00 - [82] Isnt the minmatar ships the best types to fit these new TDs with having the most midslots to spare generally? I mean... Amarr ships (the non bonused ones) dont got midslots for TDs generally... so they have to sacrifice other stuff. Caldari ships? sure here were talking... no speedtank or armor tank avalible (generally), and medslots not used for shields... Bonused ships will use ECM instead... I can see some use here thou... Gallante ships? Web+inj+MWD+scram... minimum.. and they will have severe trouble of their own with TDs, like Minmatar ships I dont buy it when some ppl say minmatar is screwed they cant counter TDs that will be on all ships from now on! TD+Web willl be a combo dangerous to many Nano ships surely... But the ship setups that will have both on will be few, unless they know whats comming ofc. And i mean if your pretty litte vagabond cant fire at 18km anymore and your drones/missiles wont do - what the hells is stopping you from warping off? Are you so stupid you would enter webrange against a ship with this (unleas you had reason to think there where no webs couse of setup possibilities)... Its not like your AC ships go boom becouse your TDed... Your DPS is cut down to 0 if you dont wanna enter web from turrets... you still got other streanghts like speed to get you out of there and so on... Kinda like there is no 'real' counter to web (workarounds sure) there will be no Sreal' counter for TD, only workarounds. Still doesnt mean you lose... Dont make it sound like your minmatar ships will go boom becouse of this, becouse the times when you face the problems from TDs+Web you can still choose if you wanna take the chance going into web range! And i assume 1on1 here, if we talk otherwise.. there are way worse combos then TDs+Web.. P.S i dont fly AC or hardly Turrets for that matter, but common sense is a powerful weapon - And it tells me TDs+Web will be a rare combo most easy attained with minmatar ships. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.15 03:58:00 - [83] Originally by: Fager And i mean if your pretty litte vagabond cant fire at 18km anymore and your drones/missiles wont do - what the hells is stopping you from warping off? Are you so stupid you would enter webrange against a ship with this (unleas you had reason to think there where no webs couse of setup possibilities)... What is the issue with people thinking vagabond is the only minmatar ship? Quote: P.S i dont fly AC or hardly Turrets for that matter, but common sense is a powerful weapon - And it tells me TDs+Web will be a rare combo most easy attained with minmatar ships. What about common sense in TC/TE? Is common sense they work for every turret except the falloff based ones?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.15 05:11:00 - [84] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Here we go again... Quote: learn why these darn ML hardpoints and drone bays are there ffs. Where are those huge dronebays you keep talking about? Rupture? Stabber? Hurricane? There are four non-gallente ships with drone bays larger than their minmitar equivalent. Three of those are explicitly drone ships.
Lady Octavia	Posted - 2008.02.15 08:42:00 - [85] For matar whiners: TC/TE are there to boost guns attributes(optimal/tracking)and not to counter TD ,these modules arent meant to countering TD-s,so asking for a counter against falloff disruptor isnt valid arguement. There is no need for any counter against TD-s,as others said before:use drones or missiles or change range all are good against TD-s. Conlusion: who wants TE/TC change,wants it for boost their already good turrets attribs,so another matar boost... imho matar is already the best race for pvp both solo,roaming and even fleet fights. Oh and resist change: it is good that armor em resist is lowered,i would lower the eamn em resist, but lowering the shield exp resist is stupid, shields already have lower resists than armor, and DC boost armor resist more than shield,ofcourse invu field increase adds more resist(30% vs 24-25%EAMN) ,but IF uses cap and needs to be activated oh and needs more cpu too. And no race is forced to do exp dmg like amarr with em , projectile can chance dmg type use it. What should be rebalanced is the fitting requirements: long range guns needs too much pq compared to short range,and lots of caldari and amarr ships suffer from this. Especially caldari gun boats,becaues they have less pg to start with and if they want to use their optimal bonus they have to fit rails,than they cant fit a tank to use their resist boni. Oh and optimal+ resist bonus on the same ship is stupid, you got range bonus to outrange enemies then you can't use out your resist bonus out, or be close and uses resist bonus then optimal bonus isnt used out... Last comment : 5% DMG bonus is always better than 5% resist bonus,thats why resist bonus should be increased to 7.5%/lvl.
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.02.15 09:37:00 - [86] Originally by: Malcanis Yeah, with every ship packing 1-2 TDs now, you're boned. Especially as those TDs won't affect eg: blasters. Haha! Spot on! I forsee swarms of thousands of Crucifiers blobbing the hell out of every system, jita-like, to prey on the whole minmatar race, flying circles around them and taunting their female parental units. Who needs a scrambler when you can fit a TD anyway? Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up* Originally by: CCP Explorer I know we have said this before, but this time we really mean itÖ
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:27:00 - [87] Originally by: Goumindong There are four non-gallente ships with drone bays larger than their minmitar equivalent. Three of those are explicitly drone ships. I'm calling point-of-fact on this. Eight does not equal four (only non-cap ships considered, Naglfar would also lose to Revelation if those are included). Sentinel 60m3 - Hyena 0m3 Omen 15m3, Caracal 10m3 - Stabber 5m3 Arbitrator 150m3 - Bellicose 40m3 Osprey 20m3 - Scythe 5m3 Curse 150m3 - Huginn 40m3 Pilgrim 150m3 - Rapier 40m3 Harbinger 50m3 - Hurricane 30m3 -- Gradient forum
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:42:00 - [88] Edited by: Diomidis on 15/02/2008 12:52:27 Originally by: Fager Isnt the minmatar ships the best types to fit these new TDs with having the most midslots to spare generally? I mean... Amarr ships (the non bonused ones) dont got midslots for TDs generally... so they have to sacrifice other stuff. Caldari ships? sure here were talking... no speedtank or armor tank avalible (generally), and medslots not used for shields... Bonused ships will use ECM instead... Looool - will u stfu already? U are slowing down the accelerating Minmatar whine-wagon Thanks for your post. Originally by: Lilith Velkor Here we go again... Quote: learn why these darn ML hardpoints and drone bays are there ffs. Where are those huge dronebays you keep talking about? Rupture? Stabber? Hurricane? Hmm, the Cyclone or Bellicose have really big dronebays... oh wait Character's Selective Reading and Comprehension skill at lvl 5 - am I right? Where did you ever read "huge"? Originally by: Theron Gyrow I'm calling point-of-fact on this. Eight does not equal four (only non-cap ships considered, Naglfar would also lose to Revelation if those are included). Sentinel 60m3 - Hyena 0m3 Omen 15m3, Caracal 10m3 - Stabber 5m3 Arbitrator 150m3 - Bellicose 40m3 Osprey 20m3 - Scythe 5m3 Curse 150m3 - Huginn 40m3 Pilgrim 150m3 - Rapier 40m3 Harbinger 50m3 - Hurricane 30m3 Nice , you can browse and selectively quote the ship database very good too (applause)... Let me play with EFT... Omen vs. Stabber - Non turret based dps will all-V-char and T2 mods/drones + faction ammo (=dps) Omen 1x HML II (28.6) + 3x Hobgoblins II (59) = 88 DPS @ 1682m/s Stabber 2x HML II (57.3) + 1x Hobgoblins II (19.8) = 77 DPS @ 2892m/s No comments further than stating how difficult is for a stabber to kill >66% of an Omen's turret-independent dps. And with that speed advantage - hey... I know that All-to-V is not viable, tho IMHO T2 HML with good support skills is easier to be found on a stabber than on an Omen. Same goes for drones, where only few Amarrians will ever max em out. Missiles are more SP friendly than Drones IMHO, thus the gap actually narrower than it seams. The speed difference is huge even with IV skills... ----- Sentinel vs. Hyena -> drone ship vs. non drone ship = irrelevant comparison Arbitrator vs. Bellicose -> drone ship vs. non drone ship = irrelevant comparison Curse vs. Huginn -> drone ship vs. non drone ship = irrelevant comparison Pilgrim vs. Rapier -> drone ship vs. non drone ship = irrelevant comparison ----- Harbinger vs. Hurricane -> True..., but conveniently enough you forget that: 1) The Hurricane with AC setup would try to web a Harbi anyways, so range TD or not it's not very clever to think otherwise 2) The Hurricane gets 3x ML hardpoints vs. 0 for the Harbi So Hurricane beats the Harbi everyday on TD independent DPS. Next excuse?
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:55:00 - [89] Originally by: Diomidis Nice , you can browse and selectively quote the ship database very good too (applause)... Yes. Perhaps Goumindong should do a bit more browsing of the ship database before claiming for a "fact" that Originally by: Goumindong There are four non-gallente ships with drone bays larger than their minmitar equivalent. Which is the only thing I commented about. I'd recommend reading my post again, especially the "point-of-fact" part. I have grown rather blasT about all the misrepresentations in the balance discussions, but outright errors (or lies) still raise my hackles. -- Gradient forum
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:43:00 - [90] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer We cant counter TPs or 40km Webs either. The only counter for these is: Kill the EW ship. Same goes for AC boats. Go close to your enemy, wich is no prob because minmatar have fast ships, and kill the EW ship. Its fine, its balanced. Just like we can't counter a curse on one of those 40 km ships. Or how at 40 km you make a sweet target due to angular velocity. And how you'll be bbqfodder to missiles and drones unless you add 90M to rigs which I'd really prefer not to have to use. And how the advantage is always on the side of the first mover when maintaning range through mwd pulses and that if kept constantly on you'll lose because your small cargohold not only holds less cap boosters but it also is full of ammo. And how minmatar big ships fare very badly at that, specially when armor rigged. And how when they get into web range they play the tanking game vs ship tanking bonused ships. And how it does not matter because you'll be webbed anyway. And how heated webs made the stabber useless, nerfed the vagabond (and the sleip) not only reducing dps in around 20% but also making them easier to track and hit by turret ships due to having to orbit further away. Etc. Fine? Ha!
Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:10:00 - [91] Edited by: Saladin on 15/02/2008 14:32:57 I have not used TD's lately, are they chance based or work all the time? ECM is chance based and its balanced so that only dedicated ships like the scorp/blackbird and so on can make good use of it. Will TD's become something that everyone will be able to use or only dedicated Amarr EW platforms? I'm also wondering with laser cap bonuses built into ships like the apoc, does this mean that lenses will burn out after 40 shots? Something has to be done to balance these new realities. 10 seconds to reload is not 10 seconds when there are 250 people in the system. Time for amarr to have ammo like the rest of us. And yes, lasers do still use a small amount of cap, but Amarr ships already get more cap because of it (even carriers - which don't use lasers!) so its a moot point.
Msobe	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:34:00 - [92] "Apocalypse: * Fitting: 505tf, 20500mw (+5tf, +1000mw) * Capacitor capacity: 7500en (+25%) * Bonuses: o 10% reduction in large energy turret capacitor usage per Amarr Battleship level (no change) o 7.5% bonus to large energy turret optimal range per Amarr Battleship level (replaces the 5% capacitor capacity bonus)" The cap bonus is built in, not the laser cap use reduction. Amarr are supposed to have a cap advantage . . . so what does that have to do with ammo? T1 crystals are the only place that advantage exists anyhow . . . T2 ammo often costs more (a lot more) per shot than other ammo types.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:32:00 - [93] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Goumindong There are four non-gallente ships with drone bays larger than their minmitar equivalent. Three of those are explicitly drone ships. I'm calling point-of-fact on this. You are right, i forgot the new sentinel. I would have been comparing the Omen to the Rupture and not the stabber[The Maller is the Amarr tackler cruiser], and completely ignored the scythe, because really who cares. So its 5. Oh noes.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:34:00 - [94] Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 15/02/2008 14:32:57 I have not used TD's lately, are they chance based or work all the time? ECM is chance based and its balanced so that only dedicated ships like the scorp/blackbird and so on can make good use of it. Will TD's become something that everyone will be able to use or only dedicated Amarr EW platforms? I'm also wondering with laser cap bonuses built into ships like the apoc, does this mean that lenses will burn out after 40 shots? Something has to be done to balance these new realities. 10 seconds to reload is not 10 seconds when there are 250 people in the system. Time for amarr to have ammo like the rest of us. And yes, lasers do still use a small amount of cap, but Amarr ships already get more cap because of it (even carriers - which don't use lasers!) so its a moot point. its actually harder for Amarr to change ammo under heavy lag, because the guns compete for the same crystals. When this happens one of them gets a crystal and the other are unloaded. Repeat as many times as you have guns.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:33:00 - [95] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Lilith Velkor Where are those huge dronebays you keep talking about? Rupture? Stabber? Hurricane? Hmm, the Cyclone or Bellicose have really big dronebays... oh wait Character's Selective Reading and Comprehension skill at lvl 5 - am I right? Where did you ever read "huge"? Guess you're not far away from lvl5 either. But replace "huge" with "adequate", I think thats what you were saying exactly. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but imho 5-40m¦ bandwidth without replacements isn't really adequate to put up a drone based fight (even if we forget about loosing drones for a moment), I'd say "supplemental" would be a more fitting description. Same goes for missiles, yes we have the doubtful advantage of split weapon systems, but honestly, would you be scared of 3 unbonused HAM IIs ?
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:58:00 - [96] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 15/02/2008 19:00:34 Originally by: Lady Octavia For matar whiners: TC/TE are there to boost guns attributes(optimal/tracking)and not to counter TD ,these modules arent meant to countering TD-s,so asking for a counter against falloff disruptor isnt valid arguement. From the Player Guide, referring to electronic warfare, about tracking disruption: Quote: Modules used as a countermeasure: Tracking Computers Now if we change TDs (the change isnt bad at all), imho the modules regarded as counter should follow. Yes they are not only used to counter TDs, but claiming they arent counters is nonsense.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.15 19:03:00 - [97] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 15/02/2008 19:00:34 Originally by: Lady Octavia For matar whiners: TC/TE are there to boost guns attributes(optimal/tracking)and not to counter TD ,these modules arent meant to countering TD-s,so asking for a counter against falloff disruptor isnt valid arguement. From the Player Guide, referring to electronic warfare, about tracking disruption: Quote: Modules used as a countermeasure: Tracking Computers Now if we change TDs (the change isnt bad at all), imho the modules regarded as counter should follow. Yes they are not only used to counter TDs, but claiming they arent counters is nonsense. Player guide also says that it disrupts optimal AND tracking wich is not true. SO lets ignore player guide. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 19:49:00 - [98] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Guess you're not far away from lvl5 either. But replace "huge" with "adequate", I think thats what you were saying exactly. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but imho 5-40m¦ bandwidth without replacements isn't really adequate to put up a drone based fight (even if we forget about loosing drones for a moment), I'd say "supplemental" would be a more fitting description. Same goes for missiles, yes we have the doubtful advantage of split weapon systems, but honestly, would you be scared of 3 unbonused HAM IIs ? Not that I'm not glad to have them as additional dps, but clearly the ACs tend to be the main damage source on the Hurricane, and even if I decide to accommodate to my new maximum range and get into web range I still suffer a huge penalty to my damage dealt until I get to optimal (not every fight is 1vs1 and not every enemy amarr). Yes. TDs will hurt you. What I'm saying is, that you won't hurt as much as Amarr would, simply because Minmatar ships at least get the option for unbonused MLs and drones = they are less prone to TDs than other races. Yes, the Vaga will have it tough against TDs...but even more a Zealot that has zero drones and zero MLs. That, along with other advantages like speed for example - make up for "adequate" - huge difference than stating "huge drone bays" or sth. Never meant to mislead, never did.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.15 22:08:00 - [99] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Player guide also says that it disrupts optimal AND tracking wich is not true. SO lets ignore player guide. Does a CCP Developer count as saying its a counter in reference to the Trinity expansion? Because they did. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:31:00 - [100] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Player guide also says that it disrupts optimal AND tracking wich is not true. SO lets ignore player guide. Not true, eh? Check again, it indeed disrupts optimal and tracking at the same time. But if it doesn't suit your argumentation just ignore it

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