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cloaking and macro ratters

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bloody johnroberts Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:44:00 - [1] Hi all just a quick note i dont know if this has been discussed but we have to do something to curb macro ratters they ruin the game and hurt all who enjoy the game. Now i know its a subject that will have most up in arms screaming no more nerf, but cloaking devices are being used to keep these ratters going there should be a time limit to there use i,e 1,you have to reactivate every 3-4 mins now i know peeps would say ahh but what about pvp well i would say you are online during pvp and those would say create a macro to reactivate i think ccp could put in that you have to warp to recloak again. i dont have all the solutions but i think ccp can do something give me your views on this
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:46:00 - [2] Originally by: bloody johnroberts there should be a time limit to there use i,e 1,you have to reactivate every 3-4 mins Don't macro-ratters instantly warp, cloak, and logout as soon as anyone enters local? This wouldn't change that. Quote: macro to reactivate i think ccp could put in that you have to warp to recloak again. They could just warp between safespots. No harm in making suggestions though. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!)
Anna Grahm Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:47:00 - [3] Originally by: bloody johnroberts Hi all just a quick note i dont know if this has been discussed but we have to do something to curb macro ratters they ruin the game and hurt all who enjoy the game. Now i know its a subject that will have most up in arms screaming no more nerf, but cloaking devices are being used to keep these ratters going there should be a time limit to there use i,e 1,you have to reactivate every 3-4 mins now i know peeps would say ahh but what about pvp well i would say you are online during pvp and those would say create a macro to reactivate i think ccp could put in that you have to warp to recloak again. i dont have all the solutions but i think ccp can do something give me your views on this Oops. they should move report button. Sorry mate Anyways... how will this stop macro users from telling their macro to use the cloak every 3-4 minutes? I am NOT an alt!
mark sharky	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:47:00 - [4] wow deja vu, i swear i've heard this somewhere before
Mrs Anderson	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:52:00 - [5] an other thing if Cloak have a time limit you just kill all the Hauler hope to go trought a gatecamp...
Conrad Rock Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:00:00 - [6] Prototype Claoking Device cannot be nerfed without affecting ships that absolutely need them. interdictors heavy interdictors black Ops battleships to name a few, then there are a dozens pf situations where they help a lot with strategy even on capital ships
Angry Alt Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:08:00 - [7] Originally by: mark sharky wow deja vu, i swear i've heard this somewhere before There must be a glitch in Tranquility. NERF!
takeaway1031	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:53:00 - [8] Simple way to solve this problem is for CCP to go ahead with its original plan to nerf clocks via probing. the only ships that should be completely invisable are those ships that are designed for it.. But as with all nerf most carebears wined and cried for weeks that there beloved hide and cloak ways would be disrupted there fore the nerf never happened.. you can go to JITA and thank those carebears for crying.. as for me I wasted a week preping ships around different parts of farmer 0.0 areas ready to probe only to be denied my glory...
Kurogauna	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:22:00 - [9] +1 to the last post... Should be able to probe cloaked ships. Thanx to a lack of balls.
Conrad Rock Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:25:00 - [10] Definitely agree that you should be able to probe cloak ships to 5km range. Not closer, 5km is enough to catch fat slow ratting ships, without hindering black ops activity where people aren't afk and using delicate and agile ships.
Marcus Xavier Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning	Posted - 2008.02.14 23:18:00 - [11] What's a macro ratter? I've never seen one and am curious how a ship managed by a macro can sense a threat and suddenly warp off to cloak at a safe spot. Also, currently, how many minutes are required to find a macro ratter who doesn't have a cloak but is in a safe spot? Finally, if these macros are so smart, wouldn't they just reactivate the cloak as soon as it shuts off? Regards, Confused in High-Sec ---------------- Mutatis Mutandis
Haurian Commando Gallente Cursed Souls Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.02.14 23:25:00 - [12] +1 to probing cloakers probe should be long range, but have a fairly low scan res so that you have to work to find cloakers, and maybe covops/astrometric frigs should get a bonus to the scan res of these cloak probes, so that you CAN stick one on a domi/whatever, but it would take a long time unless you are very lucky. --- My Mod autograph collection. Mods, please sign here! --- Please transfer the agreed amount to my Swiss bank account - Mitnal
Haurian Commando Gallente Cursed Souls Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.02.14 23:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Marcus Xavier What's a macro ratter? I've never seen one and am curious how a ship managed by a macro can sense a threat and suddenly warp off to cloak at a safe spot. Also, currently, how many minutes are required to find a macro ratter who doesn't have a cloak but is in a safe spot? Finally, if these macros are so smart, wouldn't they just reactivate the cloak as soon as it shuts off? Regards, Confused in High-Sec macro ratters refer to the many ravens one can find in quiet systems in 0.0 (fountain is a good place to find them) where they farm the rats to make ISK, which is commonly sold on (bad). They are not macros as such, since they presumably have watchers who will warp the raven to a safespot and cloak when someone enters local, then if the other person remains in system, they will log off, and regularly log on and off either with the ratter or an alt until the system is clear as for finding uncloaked macroers, they ALWAYS fit a cloak or logoffski --- My Mod autograph collection. Mods, please sign here! --- Please transfer the agreed amount to my Swiss bank account - Mitnal
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2008.02.14 23:48:00 - [14] Nerf level 4 missions in empire and you will see a lot more farmers in 0.0 I know thats annoying but you will stumble across more kills which is nice I cant believe they boosted the ravens agility in the last patch... fingers in their ears singing LALALALALA over in iceland.
codex09 Minmatar Entropy Systems Mining Co. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 23:52:00 - [15] Yes being able to prob out cloaked ships is a GREAT idea however there would have to be a lot of limits placed on things like just how close to the actual ship you would need to be to find it. ( the 5klm idea is a good one as it makes the players trying to find the other cloaked ship have to work for it instead of sitting 4AU away and just probing) They could also maybe create a new skill that people would need to have to be able to find cloaked ships (something like: "forensic cloaked ship Probing") which would have things like; for each level that is trained the effective scan area grows by 30% or something or the chances of actually finding the cloaked ship are raised by 10% for each level trained. Anyway macro ratters are and have been a problem ingame for your normal everyday players for a long time and I guess it can be hard to prove they are actually using marco's beyond a reasonable doubt, so this makes CCP's job to do someting about them 10000 times harder. well good luck with getting something done, I personally think the probing idea is the answer that will at least help to do something about them. Use Your Fears To Conquer Your Enemies!?!
Loyal Servant Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:04:00 - [16] CCP? nerf isk farmers? I'VE BEEN HIT WITH THE LOL BAT! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! No, my MM friend, isk farmers own this game. We have to stop buying their isk! CCP needs to ban the farmers and the BUYERS MORE! I can count how many bans I have seen on one hand.. even when it is OBVIOUS! Lets put this in perspective: We hunted an isk farmer raven for over a week. The only way to flush these farmers out is to completely cut off their means of getting loot out and ammo in. We did it, but it took a corp effort across all timezones and guys to fill in the gaps and low and behold, his resupply hauler got ganked. 40 mins later, another resupply in a frig with stabs and mwd, etc. ganked. after not being able to farm or get supply in, he tries to get out using the raven and cloak with faction cruise that he got from an npc.... and then we got him. Total elapsed time between discovery, lockdown and gank was approx 4 days. isk farmers have been boosted so much by CCP in the form of: 1. concord buffs 2. wrecks/cans no longer show on system scanner (NOT TALKING ABOUT PROBES!) 3. allowing rapid logon/logoff to evade probing or aggression. 4. rapid closure of any and all petitions rendering those useless. Think you can get rid of farmers? There are some of us that have.. I spent the last 2 years trying. Don't let me discourage you, tho.... try it :) So, why is ccp messing with my sig?
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:13:00 - [17] Nerf cloaks and it won't affect macro ratters one bit tbh, they'll have perhaps one or two days then adapt the macro to do what's most commonly suggested advice to care bears when they scream they'll be to easily discovered if cloaks are nerfed which is warping between multiple safespots. So in the end the macro's loose very little but the rest of the community suffers a nerf that accomplishes nothing, people are shooting in the dark hoping to get some sign from ccp that their been proactive about trying to prevent macroers. ------------------------------------------ Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
Loyal Servant Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:19:00 - [18] Originally by: ToxicFire people are shooting in the dark hoping to get some sign from ccp that their been proactive about trying to prevent macroers. TBH, macros are not an issue. Most people think of farmers and macros as the same thing when they are really 2 different animals. Most of your macro miners are gone. What is left are the adaptive isk farmers that are sweatshop workers. They do virtually everything in eve to farm as much isk as they can. CCP being proactive about it? Doubtful. Some of us have been doing this for, literally years on end. We would notice if the population suddenly declined and it's actually increasing monthly. There is a market for isk, that is why they are here in droves. They play via time card and players are eager to sell them cards so they can farm isk for the guys that obtain it illegally. When the GTC for isk thing came into play, that is when farmers exploded. They in a sense have created the problem. Killing GTC for isk may actually put a dent in them. So, why is ccp messing with my sig?
Sandman 17 Veni Vidi Vici. Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:22:00 - [19] The solution is simple. Make it so Ravens can no longer fit cloaking devices. Problem solved.
Loyal Servant Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:23:00 - [20] Originally by: Sandman 17 The solution is simple. Make it so Ravens can no longer fit cloaking devices. Problem solved. They will just log. Adaptation complete. So, why is ccp messing with my sig?
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:31:00 - [21] Combating macro's in mmo's has been notoriously hard, countering them by changing the internal mechanics of the game often leads to a running battle between dev's and macroers over whom can adapt the fastest, usually the macroers because the dev's can't change the mechanics every few days without leaving normal players totally lost in the end attempts to combat macroers via mechanics changes ends up with a utterly messed up game a ****ed off player base and a company who's reputation is utterly destroyed over what they've done to actually protect the playerbase. The other is an active monitoring system, that sits there monitoring whats going on on your system what your running and simply making it nearly impossible for anyone to macro without alerting the game server to that fact triggering an automatic ban. This has been widely adopted in the mainstream online non mmo games market, yet mmo's seems very slow to uptake this concept thats proven to work better than many passive methods, in my opinion this is because most mmo's are a subscription based service model where as most traditional online games using an active countermeasure system are one off payment models thus owning companies aren't frightened of loosing money over the issue. There is one final option that I don't think has ever really been implement in an mmo to its full extent and that is simply to allow full macroing build in a decent macro interface and scripting system with possible connection to external applications and give everyone access to the tools basicly making it worthless for a macro thats run for the purpose of producing ingame currency to be sold for real cash. But I seriously doubt that an mmo that implemented it would survive long without becoming subject to people just running lots of bots having no community and turning into a giant epeen contest about who can do the most with their macro's. The last option works for combating farmers/sweatshops as well where as the other two don't ------------------------------------------ Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:34:00 - [22] Make non cov ops II cloakers be probe-able. Make people that log off in mid space log back on with offlined modules. (wich only should work like this in non dead space ofc) Ratter problem fixed. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:36:00 - [23] Edited by: ToxicFire on 15/02/2008 01:36:48 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Make non cov ops II cloakers be probe-able. Make people that log off in mid space log back on with offlined modules. (wich only should work like this in non dead space ofc) Ratter problem fixed. You ever been in a large fleet battle, you'd end up with half the fleet with offlined modules every time you jump through a gate, why because the server thinks you've logged off cus of the delayed responses (hence why alot of large fleets end up with a good portion of the fleet ewarping off after a jump). Though kudos on one of the more novel suggestions in a while ------------------------------------------ Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
Loyal Servant Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.15 02:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Make people that log off in mid space log back on with offlined modules. (wich only should work like this in non dead space ofc) Ratter problem fixed. YEAAAAAAAAA NO. GOT BAD IDEAS? People that crash now get ganked because they are defenseless against a fracking n00bship. Farmers simply log again when someone is in the system. Adaptation complete. So, why is ccp messing with my sig?
Marak Bon	Posted - 2008.02.15 03:28:00 - [25] Edited by: Marak Bon on 15/02/2008 03:29:29 Hmm, what about a logout timer? I remember UO had it, unless you were in a certain place(see station or POS, or mission), logging out will leave you in existence for 5 minutes before you ship actually enters warp - yes this idea has problems - what if you crash? well if you add DED and mission spaces to one of the insta-warp places, that offsets most of that, but still if your ratting and your system crash's your toast. Which is a more rampant problem? people crashing while belt ratting or these guys? The fleet issues would still cause a problem, although im sure someone on here can come up with a solution to that(you mean we can design these evil fleets and tactics but cannot find a solution to something that should theoretically be simple? lol). Well thats my first idea, hopefully someone can come up with something better. Late thought: Assumably the software sends frequent online checks beteen server/client, now i havnt tried it, but i think you can tie in code to execute if the software is shut down via control panel, id have to ask a better programmer than myself. That way you could detect a ''fake crash'' and a real crash(lack of response crash) - unless they unplug their modem, but that would crash all of the accounts at once - which you can imagine would be a rather expensive idea. This would insta-warp anyone with a failed response which didnt send the 'crashed/logged out' packet - funnily enough it would also remove an easy to way to logoffski - short of pulling your cable out. Ill do a little coding and see if i can tie something to the control panel, that way we at least know if its viable or not(hell any programmers here want to chip in if they know the answer to this question?) Edited for clarity. Edit 2: Gah i just figured a work around for that, pull the network cable, damnit i liked that idea. NEXT.
Loyal Servant Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.15 06:16:00 - [26] Edited by: Loyal Servant on 15/02/2008 06:16:37 I'm not going to quote your post, I'm kinda tired. Yes, if they wrote the client halfway decent you can trap the normal methods of exiting eve, such as closing the client via the X in the cormer, or in the escape menu by hitting exit or via keyboard shortcut. These are all events that exist in the Windows API and are most definitely trappable events. I have suggested it before but CCP does not read my posts. LOTRO has this implemented to a science. If you log out in a fellowship you drop from the fellowship. If you crash or become disconnected for any other reason other than a normal client shutdown it notifies every other fellowship member by displaying 'link dead' in their vitals section. So, they are trapping normal/non-normal exits of the client. HOWEVER: The isk farmers can adapt! They will simply put the Ethernet switch up on their desk and pull the power out of it so their whole bank of machines running x eve accounts will go 'link lost' if you will, and they can claim crash and exit immediately. So, for every counter to farmers (which they won't even try) there is a method for farmers to adapt. It is a slippery slope.. you code in all these changes and they can defeat this mechanism in 30 seconds. You, as a programmer just spent 2 weeks coding in and testing these changes..... just to have them obsoleted in 30 seconds. Your idea of a logout timer is the most reasonable one out there, IMHO. But, as you can see I just poked holes in it... I still think it's worth a go. Edit: I saw your edit and .... well... yeah you thought of it too. hehe. So, why is ccp messing with my sig?
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.15 06:18:00 - [27] wow ive never seen this whine before, yeah 100% unique Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.15 06:29:00 - [28] Originally by: bloody johnroberts ... macro ratters they ruin the game and hurt all who enjoy the game. How?
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.02.15 06:36:00 - [29] I don't get what the whines are about unless its simply to have an excuse to lure people into the topic for some generic flames. Been cruising 0.0 for months now and I have never ever seen any of these notorious npc corp farmers in local and I check names by reflex. Yeah they might log off as soon as you enter local but they should still be around long enough to at least info the name before they dissapear. All the names I ever see are in player corps that hold claim to the area with the odd npc corp nub scout that hasn't been playing long enough to get in a cruiser let alone a cloaking Raven that can rat in 0.0. Anyone have any proof that these guys are a plauge in 0.0? Pics or vids or anything other than 'ayup I saw dem dare isk farmers all da time in my area ayup'? Originally by: Nice Guy This means that the writer epicaly fails at english. Irony. So delicious.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.15 07:03:00 - [30] Originally by: ToxicFire Nerf cloaks and it won't affect macro ratters one bit tbh, they'll have perhaps one or two days then adapt the macro to do what's most commonly suggested advice to care bears when they scream they'll be to easily discovered if cloaks are nerfed which is warping between multiple safespots. So in the end the macro's loose very little but the rest of the community suffers a nerf that accomplishes nothing, people are shooting in the dark hoping to get some sign from ccp that their been proactive about trying to prevent macroers. Discounting as a tiny veiled excuse, most people here is totally uninterested in macroratters, what they want is more targets and to break the cloak capacity of hiding people. Read the posts: limited operating time + reactivation delay = hiding ship found. It would require some time as you need to complete the scan at the right time, but it will work. Theya re the usual people that hate to see someone in local and not get to kill him.

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