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What makes a good pvp pilot?

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Korlock	Posted - 2008.02.16 08:12:00 - [1] I was thinking about this after reading some comments in caod and the ship fitting forum about so and so having good pvp pilots etc. What would an corporation or alliance leader be looking for in a player to consider him a good pvp pilot? Skillpoints? Amount of time active? Discipline? Ability to follow orders? Knowledge of the game? Potential? Bloodthirst? Willingness to sacrifice RL to fulfill the interests of the corp/alliance? Obviously these are all good qualities to have, and they do tend to coincide with each other, but I which one trumps the other and what specifics would a recruiter look for when trying to find new players to fill in the ranks.
Alanee'a Unakarakta	Posted - 2008.02.16 08:21:00 - [2] Edited by: Alanee''a Unakarakta on 16/02/2008 08:22:53 most look for your SP, and how's it divided among your skills they can't see your online time before you join, and then they see your last location and date online but even the greatest of SP won't help, if the recruit turns out to be a moron :) ------------------ - - - -_^ send me eve-related links, and make ISK'ies @ www.unakarakta.info www.3v3-online.com
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:05:00 - [3] This is an interesting therad. I will watch it often becuase I also wanted to knew why. It is so harded to find a corp and I don't knew why. I has plenty of SP ... --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment -KB-
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:12:00 - [4] dont buy your way in, pay your dues, work your way up, and rember even at 1m sp you can be effecitive in pvp, as long as you keep your cool, listen carefully, dont talk over your FC. in otherwords you most likely want to do everything the opposite of the poster above me --
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:14:00 - [5] Isk for the ships and skills to pay the bills
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:17:00 - [6] good pvp pilot. knows abit about the game... what the ships hes fighting can throw at him. sp isnt everything. ill take a 1-2mil sp char who knows what hes doing in hes ship rather than a 50mil sp pilot who has no clue what so ever about pvp. discipline, good game knowledge, well spent skillpoints(even if you have only a few mills). depending on corp and alliance you want to join.. active time might be important aswel. ---------------------------------- This is Me
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:45:00 - [7] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/02/2008 09:55:53 To be perfectly honest - good PvP pilots are those that learn from their mistakes. Sure skills/Isk etc etc can help. But there are people with 60mil sp in motherships fitted that could get beat from a battleship, going by the recent wade of seriously funny monthership fittings. So SP/Iskis not a defining factor - its a bonus to pvp mindset. Also regarding reasonable RL issues - RL always comes first and any pvp corp you join must understand this. Those that dont are probebly corps you might want to think twice about. If you want to enjoy pvp in this game, then risk your assets and have fun. When you die, think about what you could have done differently and still go out and pvp. It is a learning experience and corps such as Blue and Red accept anyone into their ranks and can be a good starting place to practice and learn pvp. If some player kill you, just convo them up and ask for advise on what you could have done and be constructive - you will be surprised at the results! This game has a current curse of "carebear pvp" where half the pvpers in the game are afraid to risk more than the isk value of a carcarel even though they have billions in their wallets. Dont be one of them - you will never enjoy eve and never learn anything about real pvp being cloaked up in ratting 'pvp' raven as they call it or even hiding in a pos for 90% of your gametime. This trap catches a lot of "pvpers" who end up in a boring style of play and think eve sucks when they dont relise that they are only playing eve for corp pride. -- Billion Isk Mission
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.02.16 10:16:00 - [8] Attitude. No, really, SPs mean precisely nothing. The willingness to fight, to learn, and to 'take one for the team' when it's necessary. The willingless to work as a team, the ability to think strategically. Skillpoints are a factor, but not in the way people tend to assume - it's not about how many you have, it's about can you fly a particular shipclass well. It's not unreasonable to assume that someone who's e.g. flown vagabonds a lot, and thus knows what they're doing with them, will also have skills to support flying vagabonds. And similarly, someone who claims to be an experience vagabond pilot, who can't use T2 autocannons, might well be lying. You don't need to be good at -every- ship to be useful in PvP. But it really helps if you're good at at least one. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.02.16 10:16:00 - [9] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 16/02/2008 10:18:23 -Common and tactical sense -Well spent skill point distribution -Game knowledge -Ability to use the friggin scanner (shocking how many do not) -Able to fit/fly to win (the "its lost when you undock" philosophy is utter baloney) -Solid mentors and the ability to learn from them -Able to handle losses...learn from them...and bounce right back while understanding its a video game and the pixels really have no value beyond entertainment (unless you happen to be an ISK-buyer and then LOL at you ). Even rarer are those that can actually scout properly......and vey VERY few are able to seriously handle FC duties at ANY level. Based on what I have seen perhaps 5-10% of EvE combat pilots fit the above profile. If that many. The remainder are F1-F8 lemmings/cannon fodder/EFT warriors. No offense intended... The more successful corps have an above-average number of pilots able to fit the above criteria which is why they do well. Snigg, PAK, BOS, AU, and TRI all come to mind as relevant examples. But alliances as a whole will suffer from dilution in the ranks ranging from ratters/industrialists forced to answer CTA's in their rat ships of choice to pilots who really have no clue beyond F1-F8. EDITCorps named above are just examples who I am familiar with. There are others . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Forando Interstellar Cowards	Posted - 2008.02.16 10:17:00 - [10] A good pilot? Clearly a firm understanding of ship dynamics (EW, Tanking concepts, Strong and weak points of ships/weapons) will get you far. But you really need to get your feet dirty fighting. I was almost about to say, the more ships you've lost the better, sadly it isn't so. But imagine a race driver: He really have to slide out in the grass a few times to get a picture of the limits of mother nature, where does gravity kick in! When he has a good picture of these limitations, he can drive just below that, optimizing his performance. But it requires the practice, the confrontations and lastly the evaluations to get to that point. The same goes for PvP in EVE. A talented pilot will have a clear picture of the odds very early in a fight, he will know which target should be taken down first to hinter the enemy the most. He will know what tactics would work and which would leave him in a pod. He will have this knowledge from a massive amount of encounters, not to mention losses, before. And he will evaluate both his own actions and perhaps also his team mates, constantly learning. This process you can start in a frigate! Being pilot in EVE is not just about undocking. If you want to fly with someone else you kinda need social competences. There is no right or wrong here, but usually people that can relate, work better together often creating a combat-synergy. So it really comes down to finding a group/corp you work good with. Enjoy, and fly safe..
L70Rogue	Posted - 2008.02.16 10:44:00 - [11] number of real kills death/ ratio
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.02.16 10:49:00 - [12] Originally by: L70Rogue number of real kills death/ ratio This must be a joke. Locking/getting off one shot with 40 others on the mail is not exactly a mark of a great combat pilot. It means you know how to activiate your mods and possibly use a sensor booster . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Lucky Jack'o Gallente Against all Rules	Posted - 2008.02.16 10:59:00 - [13] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 16/02/2008 10:18:23 -Common and tactical sense -Well spent skill point distribution -Game knowledge -Ability to use the friggin scanner (shocking how many do not) -Able to fit/fly to win (the "its lost when you undock" philosophy is utter baloney) -Solid mentors and the ability to learn from them -Able to handle losses...learn from them...and bounce right back while understanding its a video game and the pixels really have no value beyond entertainment (unless you happen to be an ISK-buyer and then LOL at you ). Even rarer are those that can actually scout properly......and vey VERY few are able to seriously handle FC duties at ANY level. Based on what I have seen perhaps 5-10% of EvE combat pilots fit the above profile. If that many. The remainder are F1-F8 lemmings/cannon fodder/EFT warriors. No offense intended... hits the spot nothing more to say
Frannkie	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:06:00 - [14] an element of luck as well ! nothing worse than a lag spike when you have the upper hand
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:28:00 - [15] Yelling in Vent/TS. _________________ Burn. Devs, ISD and GMs mod my sig for cake! \o/ CCP Navigator was here and left some green text and bars _____________ _____________
bixentine Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:41:00 - [16] there is essentially two questions here, one is 'what makes a good pvp pilot?' and the other is 'what should an alliance/corp leader be looking for when recruiting pvp pilots?'. i'll try to give u my opinion on each seperately. 'what makes a good pvp pilot?' skillpoints are important to the point of u need to have enough of them to pilot at least one ship to an effective level and as people have already pointed out a pilot with 10 mil sp can beat a pilot with 50 mil sp if he is in the right ship and has the skills needed. the main factor for solo pvp is knowing the strength of what u are flying and its weaknesses and knowing the same for the type of ships u are engaging so a good knowledge of fittings and ships would be important. For fleet pvp however it is important to just know that u do what u are told and trust ur fc. controlled bloodlust is essential though too much bloodlust just leads u to suicide urself and fall for easy bait traps. 'what should an alliance/corp leader be looking for when recruiting pvp pilots?' its quite hard to tell whether a player is a good pvp'r before they join but there are a few ways to get a good idea. check their name on their old corp/alliances killboards and on battleclinic, k/d ratio will give you a good indication of their ability though don't get too drawn into that, i for example have an excellent k/d ratio but for solo pvp i am average at best. the killboards and killmails give u a good idea of what they fly and what fittings they use if u find some death mails. also always a good idea imo to get them to send u a screenshot of their skills sheet as some ppl can be older players but have very little sp or have sp in industry etc and not be very effective at pvp. attitude is a major factor, perhaps the biggest one, always have at least a private convo with the recruit before they join, ts/vent convo is best though, if they are applying to u they should already know all about you, ask them q's about sp, participation etc, then get them to ask u q's, if they ask if u have a ship replacement program or ask how the ratting is or how mining is etc, close convo, it sounds harsh but if that is what they want to ask the first time they talk to you then chances are it is all they are joining for. thats my opinion anyway, hope it helps.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:51:00 - [17] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 16/02/2008 11:52:22 Originally by: bixentine ....if they ask if u have a ship replacement program or ask how the ratting is or how mining is etc, close convo, it sounds harsh but if that is what they want to ask the first time they talk to you then chances are it is all they are joining for. thats my opinion anyway, hope it helps. Why would asking about replacement ships be grounds for dismissing an applicant? It certainly seems valid to ask especially if the corp is on the pew 23/7 and doing so to protect non-combatants/space/etc. Unless the corp specifically states "self-reliance on all matters fiscal and supply-wise" it is a question any street-smart combat pilot SHOULD ask. And a good k/d ratio (unless solo) is meaningless. It usually means your blob is more efficient than the other guys blob . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.02.16 12:30:00 - [18] When you attack someone and things dont work out the way you planned, you have met a good pilot. --- Its dead, Jim.
L70Rogue	Posted - 2008.02.16 12:40:00 - [19] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: L70Rogue number of real kills death/ ratio This must be a joke. Locking/getting off one shot with 40 others on the mail is not exactly a mark of a great combat pilot. It means you know how to activiate your mods and possibly use a sensor booster . If you look at a killboard see that that person has 50 kills and 300 deaths I doubt they will get into veto.
Abbadon Caldari Pukin' Dogs D0GMA	Posted - 2008.02.16 12:44:00 - [20] Trust Patience Attention to detail Ability to listen and shut up when needed No smack Be able to accept the fact they will lose ships/pods Spacial awareness Be able to adapt quickly Knowledge of not only their own ships/skill and capabilities but also to identify counters and weaknesses in hostile ships/fleets. Team player .
ThatCpp Gallente Knights Of the Black Sun	Posted - 2008.02.16 12:45:00 - [21] One of the more important things to being a good pvp pilot is having good ship fittings. Its important to know how to fit your ship up for the different situations you will expect to bring it into.
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.02.16 14:46:00 - [22] Edited by: Buyerr on 16/02/2008 14:46:00 Patience. a LOT of Patience... if you can outlast the other team without dying of boredom, your good to go XD... I declare war on stupidity
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.02.16 14:53:00 - [23] This Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Jack Brazen Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.02.16 15:40:00 - [24] I consider myself a great PvP pilot, even though this is my first character and he is around 2 months old. But I've got a great teacher, I've devoted myself to learning PvP, and I've spent quite a lot of time fighting against the odds. Granted, I wouldn't consider myself a fleet PvP'er at all, but for solo or small gang PvP, the fact that I've barely breached 2 mil SP doesn't mean much to me. I've beaten a 1+ year old combat character who was in a Vexor, back when I was less than a month old and flying a Thorax. A great fitting for my ship, some heavy micro-management, and the ability to dictate the range of engagement gave me a victory, and also the biggest thrill either of us have had in-game. He made a few mistakes - he could have brought 2 more tech II Hammerheads in his drone-bay I believe, and he had two salvagers fitted - and I made none. That's what gave me the victory in that particular fight. So, I agree with many of the people above. PvP in this game depends on a multitude of factors, ranging from SP, ship, fittings and other game-related points, all the way to how much micro-managing of cap one is willing/able to do - a strictly player-based factor. I'd say though, that those saying experience is key are absolutely right. I've lost plenty of frigs to everything able to fit a gun or send out a drone, but lately the trend is reversing and I'm the one killing people in unlikely ships. Again, I wouldn't know how all this works for larger engagements, but for small-scale or solo PvP, I think the most important factors by far rest with the players. If you are in a fight you can't win, then you made a mistake even engaging (or allowing yourself to be enganged). And if you DO loose, I'd say being able to learn from it is what makes you a great PvP'er. Consider every lost ship a tuition fee into the great school of PvP that EvE is, but do your damned best not to loose the next one ;) ----- In EVE - never bring a knife to a knife-fight. Reckless Corsairs is looking for a few aspiring team PVPers.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.02.16 15:51:00 - [25] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: L70Rogue number of real kills death/ ratio This must be a joke. Locking/getting off one shot with 40 others on the mail is not exactly a mark of a great combat pilot. It means you know how to activiate your mods and possibly use a sensor booster . A good kill death ratio, means you probably have a well behaved fleet pilot. That can be worth something. Doesn't necessarily make them a Pvper though, just someone who's disciplined enough to look and shoot da primary when the FC says so. The ratio is meaningless. The 'number of kills' is meaningless - you can kill an awful lot of haulers at a gatecamp, relatively easily. You might be well served to ask a pilot 'can you link us to your best fight'. And then look at what they _considered_ a good fight. How many were there, how did they do? And what was their criteria for considering it 'best'. If you see a fight which has 50 on their side, and 5 on the other, but they wiped the other guys out without a loss, then ... well, yeah. If you see it the other way around, where the 5 took on the 50, and got a few kills before all exploderising, then you might have a good PvPer there :). If you see a fight against the odds, that had some reflection of success, considered a 'good fight' you probably have someone who's a good PVPer. There is a real swing in 'whats good, when'. There's not actually all that many pilots who are great allrounders, and can do fleet commanding, scouting, small gangs, soloing, large gangs, all as well as each other. The best you can really hope for when recruiting, is to look for those that 'seem to do well' and have a lot of experience in the size and composition of fights you consider 'normal'. Not sure about anyone else, but actually, soloers aren't a huge lot of use. Whilst they're really good for killboard padding, in their killfrenzys, someone who can work well in a small (<5 person) gang, is much more of an asset. Hate to say it, but even in 0.0 there's a lot of bad PvPers, who cover this lack by massive overkill. You don't necessarily realise this, until you see someone 'good' administer a spanking against a 'superior' opponent. Depending a lot on how you define 'good'. Killboards don't measure good - they're prone to being inaccurate, and anyway, the numbers on them are pretty meaningless really. It's only standalone fights that can be observed and really used as a basis for spotting a 'good' pvper. (Of course, spotting a bad one is relatively easier) But I still say it's more about the attitude than anything. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Chuck Skull BBK Corp	Posted - 2008.02.16 15:59:00 - [26] A big pair helps, so does understanding of game mechanics. Alliances rarely end up in solo(1v1) PVP fights, though. In my experience being able to laugh at and learn from your losses is a big plus. SP isn't everything --- Also available in 'sober'
benzss Twisted Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.16 16:12:00 - [27] 1/3 knowledge of game mechanics and ship fittings 1/3 the psychology... having the balls to engage the enemy, having the right attitude to learn from and listen to corpmates, etc 1/3 split-second tactical decisions in the heat of battle
ry ry StateCorp Insurgency	Posted - 2008.02.16 16:26:00 - [28] learning to recognise a t2 ship from the equivilent t1 hull. god knows i've made that mistake enough times to mark me as a crap pvper :( Signature removed. Too large and flashing signatures are not really permitted. Navigator
Taua Roqa Minmatar Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.02.16 16:28:00 - [29] Originally by: ry ry learning to recognise a t2 ship from the equivilent t1 hull. god knows i've made that mistake enough times to mark me as a crap pvper :( hahahahaha oh god yes. "it's just a bellicose lol...oh damn" -------------------------------------------- Threads are stacking-nerfed; the more posts you add the less effective those posts are. My I/Q Ration!!!11
General StarScream	Posted - 2008.02.16 16:37:00 - [30] The most important thing for a pvper in my mind. Is the fun factor, if you have fun, you win in eve pvp. no one can take that away from you. Please resize signature to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
JADE DRAG0NESS Dark Scorpions Fate Weavers	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:07:00 - [31] Just one thing makes a good PvP pilot........Practice. "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Crimsonjade Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:12:00 - [32] only one mantra when it comes to pvp. Today is a good day to die, gimme someone who isnt afraid to jump into a blob and fight. adding not panicking and screaming like a little girl when they get warp scrambled is a plus
6Bagheera9 Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.16 18:13:00 - [33] First and foremost is the will to fight, a good pvp pilot lives for great fights and his entire life in EvE is devoted towards finding and winning them. Easy ganks provide some satisfaction (and good loot never hurts), but what a pvper really craves are tough battles that push the limits of his abilities and help him grow stronger and wiser. Next is good discipline and a well-applied knowledge of game mechanics. He knows what certain ships and fleets can do and bases his strategy according. He rarely panics as he knows enough about the game to do what it takes to survive or accept when he's utterly screwed and its time to try and take someone down with him. Hesitation comes from uncertainty, a good pvp pilot knows what to do and simply does it. Last, but still very important, is logistics. A good pvper has the forethought to ensure that he has the right ships/fittings do accomplish his goals. SP play a role in this as the determine what ships you can fly and how well you can fly them. Being able to calmly accept and recover from losses is essential. Sometimes you or the FC screws up, and sometimes **** just happens. Your clone makes you effectively immortal and all your ships/fittings/implants can be replaced in time. The only thing a loss really costs you is a little isk grinding to replace it. Great FCs are the elite of pvpers as they can extend their abilities to encompass and empower and entire fleet. Even noobs can be deadly if they have a good FC and follow orders. And they'll only grow more dangerous as they gain experience and confidence.
6Bagheera9 Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.16 18:23:00 - [34] Originally by: Taua Roqa Originally by: ry ry learning to recognise a t2 ship from the equivilent t1 hull. god knows i've made that mistake enough times to mark me as a crap pvper :( hahahahaha oh god yes. "it's just a bellicose lol...oh damn" Sometimes it is really a bellicose... Bad pvpers, for all their faults, are an endless source of amusement for good ones.
Dahin Maza Nostra oooh Shiny	Posted - 2008.02.16 18:44:00 - [35] I've seen a few of those develop through the years, and I have to say they all had a single common quality: Determination. Nothing else. Skillpoints, isk, fleet behaviour and all the likes are attainable skills through applying the same thing over and over (as in training). Depending on how you see it, the determination can be called "having fun" or "being patient" or even "having no life". So if you spot a no-lifer asking for a corp, grab him. Why fly covops? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0WOIwlXE9g
Korlock	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:47:00 - [36] Really appreciate all of the great comments here. I kind of wish I could think of more questions to ask, but everything has been pretty well answered. It seems that the qualities for success as a pvp pilot are the same qualities that a fighter pilot or athlete may have. On a bit of a different note. Does EVE turn into a big RTS game when you reach the Fleet Commander level? I mean, comparing it to Starcraft, you have units, you command them to attack, you can tell them to go places. But now instead of Dragoons being pumped out of gateways, you now have Megathrons coming out of stations. So would anyone agree that EVE can be considered just a huge MMORTS?
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:49:00 - [37] Originally by: Korlock On a bit of a different note. Does EVE turn into a big RTS game when you reach the Fleet Commander level? I mean, comparing it to Starcraft, you have units, you command them to attack, you can tell them to go places. But now instead of Dragoons being pumped out of gateways, you now have Megathrons coming out of stations. So would anyone agree that EVE can be considered just a huge MMORTS? Yeah, where every unit has a life of its own, misunderstands orders or hesitates to actually do anything. --- Its dead, Jim.
doctorstupid2 Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:00:00 - [38] Edited by: doctorstupid2 on 16/02/2008 20:00:12 What makes a good pilot? Well, these days, being good is really secondary to having a falcon and/or nanos. It is indeed a sad state of affairs. MOVIES: Deadspace Deadspace 2
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:10:00 - [39] Skillpoints lots of them and Ships expensive as hell. Realy? No. What you realy need in PVP is game and PVP Explerinece. Knowing the Ships and fittings(best ofc by flying them yourself from time to time), knowing Gamemenchanics and the Agro System, knowing tactics and smart gang/solo Fittings. Also the ability to see the trap/bait before you are in a position where you get killed. So it is lots of reading, watching PVP Vids and PVP yourself that will give you the biggest advantages in PVP. Combine this with Skillpoints and expensive Ships and you got yourself a nr 1 PVP Pilot. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Vladimir Ilych Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:14:00 - [40] What makes a good pvp pilot? Patience.
benzss Twisted Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:44:00 - [41] Originally by: ry ry learning to recognise a t2 ship from the equivilent t1 hull. god knows i've made that mistake enough times to mark me as a crap pvper :( and why isn't that information in your overview?
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:45:00 - [42] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire This is an interesting therad. I will watch it often becuase I also wanted to knew why. It is so harded to find a corp and I don't knew why. I has plenty of SP ... Is this jenny Spitfire I, II, II, IV, V or VI?
Ralara Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:57:00 - [43] What makes a good PvP pilot? I'll go for 0.0 here (low sec/empire wars... meh) 1) the ability to listen to your team mates and gang leaders (or FC) 2) the ability to learn and anticipate your opponents 3) the ability to LISTEN to your FKING FC when they say "align to the gate" they DO NOT MEAN WARP TO THE GATE AND JUMP THROUGH ON CONTACT 4) the ability to listen to your FC. 5) Not to spam TS or vent with useless crap - gang needs to know X Y and Z not how X Y and Z fell in to the vernacular. 6) the ability to listen to your FC. -- Sir, I don't understand why we train for ECM, sir - in a fleet battle all you got to do is press buttons. THE ENEMY CANNOT PRESS A BUTTON IF YOU DISABLE HIS LOCK. MEDIC!
benzss Twisted Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.16 21:07:00 - [44] Edited by: benzss on 16/02/2008 21:07:26 So for 0.0 being good at pvp means warping to the right places when told and pressing f1-f8 when told? I suppose this is why I hang out in low-sec now.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.02.16 22:19:00 - [45] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Korlock On a bit of a different note. Does EVE turn into a big RTS game when you reach the Fleet Commander level? I mean, comparing it to Starcraft, you have units, you command them to attack, you can tell them to go places. But now instead of Dragoons being pumped out of gateways, you now have Megathrons coming out of stations. So would anyone agree that EVE can be considered just a huge MMORTS? Yeah, where every unit has a life of its own, misunderstands orders or hesitates to actually do anything. Essentially the case. You could quite easily consider EVE an RTS (And I do). You have units - ships, and their linked units, drones. Your units have strengths and weaknesses in what they can do, and they have costs associated with them. They also have odd restrictions on when they'll operate, that the commander must be aware of - timezones, and family lives. You have supply, logistics and intel, in a very real fashion. Information trickles in and must be analysed. Your units have morale - it is possible to tell the difference between a confident fleet following a FC they trust, vs. a FC they do not. You also get war weariness - some units respond better to sustained conflict than others. You don't automatically get to be general, either. You get to command a squad, sometimes, but you only get to lead those that will willingly follow. You have resources to manage - ships, time, space, and downtime, resupply. You gain resources, if you go to the effort from areas you control, and you have to decide how this resource gain is deployed. You have diplomacy - it's very effective, and vitally important to at least understand the interplay of relationships between player groups. (And that's complicated too, as more than a few are actively dysfunctional). EVE is very definitely an RTS. It's one of the best ones, where the right to command is earned. Morale is built, and managed. Diplomacy is _REAL_ and very important in your fighting. Supply lines and intel are very relevant. Unit experience comes into play, as does balance and composition of your forces. And best of all, you're always up against a human player, who at the very least throw you off track with an interestiny play, and at the very best... well, be doing exactly the same things, right back at you. I love EVE for this very reason. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.02.17 00:46:00 - [46] An even temper. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.02.17 00:54:00 - [47] i have found that a hint of insanity makes for VERY good pvpers........well works for me anyways --------------------------------------------- Originally by: SoftRevolution **** yeah. Lets hear it for being a cranky bastard.
Bohoba Caldari The Dragons Den	Posted - 2008.02.17 02:44:00 - [48] As a lot have mentioned its all about SKILL, TACTICS, and KNOWLEDGE SP is secondary and helpful but is not what it takes to be good. Windows VistaÖ Ultimate x64-based PC Gigabyte X38-DQ6 Processor Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Extreme CPU Q6850 Memory 4,093.69 MB 2X Crossfire ASUS EAH3870/G/HTDI/512M Radeon HD 3870 512MB
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.17 03:19:00 - [49] Originally by: benzss Edited by: benzss on 16/02/2008 21:07:26 So for 0.0 being good at pvp means warping to the right places when told and pressing f1-f8 when told? I suppose this is why I hang out in low-sec now. Ha ha, precisely ;) When recruiting, I'll consider this: - well distributed SP (it really tells you a few things about the pilot, it's not just a 'how many' SP thing) - knowledge of game mechanics - knowledge of fittings/ships/ship capabilities etc (these help in judging what/when to engage a lot) - gank smelling (seriously, some people are completely unable to smell a gank coming up, and these people tend to lose a lot of ships due to this) - patience. If you get*****y trying to get a kill, you'll most likely die. Be patient. On some days, you don't get much, but it's still better then just dying while trying to get your daily gank. - rough understanding of the term 'cost-effectiveness'. If you bring a ship which is far too expensive, I get the additional burden of having to be extra careful with throwing it into combat. Bring effective ships/setups, but don't bring something that'll break your bank and suck all the loot from a OP for reimbursement purposes if you do pop. - vent/comms discipline: nothing is more annoying then someone talking during a OP. I don't need to know, I don't want to know, and someone might have something important to say which I will miss because of you. Also people saying 'warp to me' typically have me sitting comfortably in safespot unless their character is actually called 'me'. Say your name. I've lost ships so far because all people said is 'warp' (without, like, warp away, warp to me, warp to XYZ). Also people who cannot be bothered to write 'AFK X seconds/minutes' while in fleet and having to go AFK due to RL stuff (which is fine) are downright annoying, you lose ships because people don't know wether they have support or not. After that, it's mostly the ability to make the right choices tactics-wise in combat (and correctly deciding what/when/where/how to engage) which distinguishes the average pilots from the good ones. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Haas Tabris	Posted - 2008.02.17 07:57:00 - [50] Originally by: Korlock On a bit of a different note. Does EVE turn into a big RTS game when you reach the Fleet Commander level? I mean, comparing it to Starcraft, you have units, you command them to attack, you can tell them to go places. But now instead of Dragoons being pumped out of gateways, you now have Megathrons coming out of stations. So would anyone agree that EVE can be considered just a huge MMORTS? Well, there's a split between a good corp or alliance leader and a good fleet commander. The two are rarely the same person. The first has to deal with politics, logistics, keeping morale up, stuff like that. The second has to KNOW pvp inside and out. Both need the respect and trust of their members / pilots to be effective - and they get that by demonstrating their ability and knowledge of the game. As to an MMORTS, yeah, eve is kinda like that in a way. At least in the alliance wars and holding territory. But it's a lot different, mostly cause you've got real people in your group. In pvp situations, you get intel and give orders and call targets via teamspeak or vent. And your intel might be incomplete, or you might make a mistake, or you might give a confusing order (jump into the system abc when you're actually meant to say jump into system xyz for example), or someone you thought knew what they were doing turns out to not know what they're doing and makes a mistake which leaves you with a big whole in your game plan... So it gets a lot more complicated than any RTS I've ever played. My best experiences are when the FC has a few pilots he can count on to know the game, understand the plan and also think for themselves. They understand what's going on, can give very quick accurate intel, respond quickly to orders, and can say "hey, you sure about that?" when it looks like the FC is about to make a mistake or do something very risky. Any FC worth anything will appreciate these pilots to no end. In fact, I try not to fly without them.
Captain Blart Hideous Mutant Freekz	Posted - 2008.02.17 08:41:00 - [51] Originally by: L70Rogue If you look at a killboard see that that person has 50 kills and 300 deaths I doubt they will get into veto. kill/death ratio means nothing, there is no glory killing people when you outnumber them by a lot, that just means you gank people and this require absolutely no skills. For me, being a good pvp pilot means that first you love to pvp and take the risks that comes with, and god knows that in this game a lot of "pvpers" are extremely risks averse and rely more on quantity rather than quality and will to fight . Thats why a lot of them run away as soon as the chances are even. Second, knowing how to pilot your ships , especially with fast ships like inties, stabber and vaga, thats not something that the sps give you, it only comes with experience and that means you're going to have to loose a lot of them before to pilot it properly Third, knowing how to assess a situation, when to fight, when to run away also comes only with experience. And last but nto the least, having huge b*lls helps a lot
Delichon Caldari The First Foundation Stella Polar	Posted - 2008.02.17 09:16:00 - [52] Edited by: Delichon on 17/02/2008 09:16:52 This topic has shown, that there is no generic PVP, there is a) highsec PVP (official wars), b) lowsec PVP (yarring) c) nullsec PVP (wars over territory) Of course everyone will brag, that their PVP is the true PVP, and all the rest are weaklings. Yeah, that's the downside of the diversity of EVE being the sandbox game - people fail to respect the other people's sandboxes :) My humble opinion is: a) Official wars in highsec - you need patience, ability to metagame (using login traps, NPC-corp alts and a few other moderatly dirty tricks) and good It's-a-trap-o-meter. Have fun disrupting the logistics of some huge entity, while being ready to dock and clone jump as soon as they gather a responce force. b) Lowsec yarring - good understanding of your capabilities (meaning choosing your fights) and patience. Remember - the common wisdom, that noobships come frigate-sized, is wrong. From time to time you will encounter Cruiser-, BC- or even BS-sized noobships - or at least so it would seem by judging the fittings and the piloting style. c) Nullsec territorial wars - lot's of online time (because gates ain't going to camp themselves for the next 8 hours, man), Teamspeak+ability to shut up when using it, and your char should be specialized in using some ships (prefferably - 1 fleet ship and 1 roaming ship) My 2 cents. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums.
Oregon sinful The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.17 09:29:00 - [53] Originally by: General StarScream The most important thing for a pvper in my mind. Is the fun factor, if you have fun, you win in eve pvp. no one can take that away from you. This. I consider myself a good pvp'r, far from the best but the simple fact is i go out and have fun. When Bruce came into our systems today, we formed up and took on a 70 man gang with 30some actual players. If you look at our kb and at the fight it shows 65 of us and 77 of them because our pilots, including myself, went back for second and third ships. We ended up killing 56 and losing 57, outnubered 2-1 and at the end of the fight we held the field. And the loot. Those are the good pvp'rs that bring it and keep on bringing it and afterwards laugh on vent about who lost more. One of the greatest things my corp ever did, was put together a Drakes of Doom op. The basic premis was that we all were to fly drakes, fit in unique ways, a remote rep drake, a jamming drake, a nano drake, ect. the only rules were no "ubar tank" setup and we were going to fly them till we lost them. On a couple occasions we engaged groups larger than our own and i don't know if it was confusion or what but we ended up with more kills than losses and most importantly we had fun. I don't care if I lose my ship, as long as i have fun. Some ppl perceive this as fearlessness, or the mark of a great pvp'r. I see it as an internet spaceship game, so what have i got to lose? POST WITH YOUR MAIN OR STFU
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.02.17 11:17:00 - [54] Practice and patience. You will learn in due time, and its not the ammount of SP that makes you strong or weak in PvP. Very rarely does your SP number come into play when in a fight. More oftain then not, its the little things that bring the victory - and those little things you learn through expereince. What kind of setup does X have, what range does Y wepons system operate in, an X and a Y will mean they will do Z to me, how do I work around Z to kill X first then Y - these kinds of calculations take expereince and knowledge to make. . .and its not about 'I don't have C ship and thats why I can't do this' I enjoyed the other posts as well, consider yourself lucky for the advice. ----
Cipher7	Posted - 2008.02.17 13:01:00 - [55] Originally by: Korlock What would an corporation or alliance leader be looking for in a player to consider him a good pvp pilot? 1) The willingness and ability to lose and replace expensive equipment. 2) The ability to assimilate the large body of knowledge that comprise the game mechanics, including strategy, tactics and fittings. 3) Activity level. 4) Fast twitch reflexes. 5) Owning a Mic. 6) Skillpoints. 7) A working understanding of Sun Tzu : "A war is won before it is fought" ie if you're smart you don't go after other PvP'ers you go after miners, haulers and mission-runners, that way you MAKE money while PvPing rather than LOSE money while PvPing, also its an easy way to gain killmails and confidence, confidence which is important in cultuvating a deadly persona.
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.02.18 04:35:00 - [56] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Korlock What would an corporation or alliance leader be looking for in a player to consider him a good pvp pilot? 1) The willingness and ability to lose and replace expensive equipment. 2) The ability to assimilate the large body of knowledge that comprise the game mechanics, including strategy, tactics and fittings. 3) Activity level. 4) Fast twitch reflexes. 5) Owning a Mic. 6) Skillpoints. 7) A working understanding of Sun Tzu : "A war is won before it is fought" ie if you're smart you don't go after other PvP'ers you go after miners, haulers and mission-runners, that way you MAKE money while PvPing rather than LOSE money while PvPing, also its an easy way to gain killmails and confidence, confidence which is important in cultuvating a deadly persona. I disagree with your interpretation of 7. wars are won by logistics, but in Eve, you have to take out there fighting ship sooner or later. It doesn't matter if somebody can't replace ships, if they never loose them. Going after "soft" targets also quickly developes into a big fish little pond syndrom. There can be a lot of skill used to catch and engage a well piloted hauler, but none once battle is joined, same for miners. mission running ships are at an even bigger disadvantage, they are often tanking a lot of dps to begin with. Eventually, you will have to learn how to fight when you are they prey, and not the hunter. kill enough miners, and eventually, people will come looking for you.
Ka Jolo Ministry of Destruction	Posted - 2008.02.18 10:28:00 - [57] What makes a good PvP pilot? 1. Experience 2. The tendency to learn from experience 3. The willingness to apply what is learned If you have to pick just two of these characteristics, go with 2 and 3. If you have 1-3, everything else comes with it (e.g. SP, knowledge of how to fit ships and what each ship is capable of, good kill-to-death ratio, discipline while in fleets, etc.). I'm not a fan of kill-to-death ratios. A player who takes a lot of risks in order to gain experience or for the chance of disproportionate gains will have a worse ratio than one who plays it safe; an alt who tags along in a big fleet will have a better ratio than a solo fighter; a gate-camper who targets macro haulers will look better than a mission buster. However, you can learn a lot by looking at killboards, as has been mentioned. Look past the raw numbers to the stories behind them. Finally, realize that while "What makes a good PvP'er" is a good question for discussion, it is probably not the best question in the field. Then it's more important to know "What makes a good fleet pilot" or "What makes a good scout" or "What makes a good station camper" or "What makes a good bait pilot." "A man's got to know his limitations." --Harry Callahan. Your Money or Your Life! The journal of a space pirate
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.02.18 11:15:00 - [58] Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 18/02/2008 11:15:37 Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 18/02/2008 11:15:16 Originally by: Cipher7 7) A working understanding of Sun Tzu : "A war is won before it is fought" ie if you're smart you don't go after other PvP'ers you go after miners, haulers and mission-runners, that way you MAKE money while PvPing rather than LOSE money while PvPing, also its an easy way to gain killmails and confidence, confidence which is important in cultuvating a deadly persona. I'd say this makes crappy PvP'er actually. You don't become good if you practice on miners, a butcher ain't the greatest warrior really. Such philosophy leads to overconfidence, epeen flexing and combat inflexibility. Which in turn leads to all these hilarious kills of inties in BC and such. If you don't gain money from PvP then you're either doing it wrong or focus on having fun out of it and make income other ways. Can't speak for the latter, but former case is pretty much the indicator of how good(and lucky ) PvP'er you are(or your gang is). What makes a good PvP'er in my mind? It's desire. Desire to learn, to fight, to adapt, to apply what you have on hands. And desire to use little something that comes in package with your head(and it ain't hat ).
Solasta Kovacs Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.18 11:18:00 - [59] Edited by: Solasta Kovacs on 18/02/2008 11:18:23 I have to reiterate the idea that PRACTICE is vitally important. Sure there are other factors, but I can count the number of losses I have suffered in this game which have ocurred OTHER than as a result of my own mistakes, on my fingers. Every time you suffer a loss, you have probably done something wrong. Think about it- consider it next time, and dont waste the lesson. And importantly, don;t let those lessons turn you into an isk whoring coward- go back for more, but do it smarter next time. The other key is to be able to make positive decisions (in the light of all those lessons) quickly, under pressure. Again that gets easier with practice- but is also a knack that not everyone has or can learn. Oh - and NEVER recruit anyone who doesnt know how to setup an overview, or conducts combat by clicking on ships in space...
Ovek Gallente Cosmic Fusion When Fat Kids Attack	Posted - 2008.02.19 12:14:00 - [60] Having had a similiar conversation with a corp-mate recently we decided there was a definitative formulae. Having flown with the best, the way to define a good pvp'er(not the way one is made) is the fact they come out on top everytime, they don't lose ships and they haven't learn from experience of dieing, it truely is a natural thing, you are either good or you aren't. There is a certain mindset and ability there that can not be brought on by anything other than instinct (this is the reason there is so any supposed and over-rated "pvp'ers").

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