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Change the Covetor Mining Barge Requirement to IV

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Uncle Mo	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:16:00 - [1] What's the point of requiring level V Mining Barge to get into the Covetor? The skill reqs for the Hulk are almost identical. Once you skill up to the Covetor reqs, Exhumers III is a mere day away and your sitting in a Hulk. I understand there's a cost consideration for buying a Hulk and the Exhumers skill, but Hulk's aren't exactaly 500mil ISK anymore. Bumping down the Mining Barge req to IV would put the Covetor in its proper place skill wise and make it a more valuable craft. It would still be difficult to get into with the other reqs. As it stands now, the covetor is useless to everybody except those who can't afford a Hulk, which costs less than a tier 3 battleship. I suppose the only other reason to be in a Covetor is if you do a lot of mining in dangerous areas and tend to lose a lot of ships. Personally I don't know any decent miner that doesn't use a Hulk no matter the sec status being mined?
Thenoran Caldari Frontier Economics	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:28:00 - [2] I would rather see Astrogeology requirement go to IV instead of Mining Barge. ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Ciuby Gallente Romania Production Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:31:00 - [3] if you are serious about mining, you will learn Mining Barge V anyway :) __________ Manufacturing whatever you need...
Kiki Arnolds Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.21 16:13:00 - [4] Originally by: Ciuby if you are serious about mining, you will learn Mining Barge V anyway :) You miss the point, why use a covetor at all? by the time you get the skills for it, you are only 1 day away from sitting a hulk... Where it would be valuable is while waiting for the weeks it will take for barges V Astro could work, but its a much lower rank skill, and 4->5 of Astro is MUCH faster, to the point that it would still probably make sense to just wait for the hulk. If you can't afford a hulk after 2-3 months of training for it you have bigger problems... ç¦
voidvim Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.21 17:06:00 - [5] Edited by: voidvim on 21/02/2008 17:06:11 never made much sence to me need level 5 either, it's like tier 3 battleships needing level 5 and then have Tech II battleships costing 250 million isk or so. but their is risk v reward to consider of course. Salvaging guide:moon materials guide
Cryos Ylwan Red Eye .Inc. Rare Faction	Posted - 2008.02.21 17:49:00 - [6] Agreed, the Covetor is pretty useless, IMO. I'm sure as hell not gonna shell out the money for one after I get to Barge V if I can just wait another day for the Hulk.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.02.21 17:57:00 - [7] I agree with the op. ------------------------------------------
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:10:00 - [8] well it depends, mebbe make it L4 but then also decrease it's mining potential a bit. This might make macroers/sweatshoppers very happy otherwise. _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
William Ortega Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:31:00 - [9] I suppose it is a little silly to require L5 for covetor. I understand the hulk requirements... it is a T2 boat after all and as such requires basic mining barge skilled to 5, like all the T2 boats. It should be noted however that while it is only one day to get from covetor to hulk's basic requirements, in order to fully utilize the hulks potential you need t2 strips and crystals and those have a lengthy training times as well. Finally, I agree with hunter. Any sort of changes done to covetor/hulk skill reqs could have a drastic impact on the economy of eve by giving more/better tools to macro miners. As it is right now, the people serious about mining will still train barge to 5, regardless of the fact that it adds an extra month. For macroers, on the other hand, the high time reqs to setup a hulk account provide a detterrent (I hope). -Willy
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2008.02.21 20:46:00 - [10] What is the price difference between a Covetor and a Hulk? If it's high enough, that may be reason to use a Covetor for a while. Also, since the Hulk requires player research to create, whereas the Covetor does not, it may be easier to get your hands on a Coveter in certain locations than a Hulk. I don't have enough experience with mining barges (not going past Retrievers) to know if these statements are applicable, but they are at least possible. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne

Yargo Metash Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.21 20:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Bronson Hughes What is the price difference between a Covetor and a Hulk? If it's high enough, that may be reason to use a Covetor for a while. In Heimatar, last prices I checked was Covetor for ~20 mil, Hulk for ~120 mil. Though straight mining for money in high sec, it's very easy to save up that 120 mil while training Mining Barge V/Exhumer's III.
Giuseppe Sacco	Posted - 2008.02.21 23:13:00 - [12] Near as I can figure the cov is the hulk you can afford to lose, and that's also kind of backwards: the hulk is supposed to be built tough for dangerous areas, but it costs so much that unless security is tight I'd sooner bring a covetor because getting it blasted won't put me behind the 8 ball nearly as bad (yeah I know, insurance is my friend. Cov should cost less to insure too though). I'm only in a retriever right now but it also looks to me like all other things being equal (skills, fittings etc) the hulk's bonuses aren't really so uber as to justify the price. I could be wrong on that but that's how it looks at first glance. Although the hulk can apparently be used to bait and gank ore thieves, so I guess that's worth something. Seems logical to me that there should be a bigger gap between the hulk and cov in terms of skills and abilities (instead of just price and hit points) but I'm not sure what you'd do to "fix" it. I'm not that eaten up about it really, it's just one of those things that doesn't make perfect sense to me and as such is mildly annoying. But anyway, yeah. Right now the main uses of the covetor are situations where you think you might lose it or if you want to set up a second rig in a remote system but can't afford or don't want to pay for a second hulk.
Anane	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:15:00 - [13] Edited by: Anane on 22/02/2008 00:16:37 First of all the covetor has 3 harvesters... now why would they wanna give something that much more powerful only a few days to train than a retriever? its just common sense really too many people who be mining then. It helps keep it more competitive so only the people who are serious about mining actually train it.. in a seriousness this question is just dumb and the thing is with the hulk... most people who start mining don't have the money for the hulk by the time they get mining barge V .. only those who have NO life do.. especially if you train other skills at the same time... which you should...
Uncle Mo	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:39:00 - [14] Keep in mind the the Procurer is worthless. The Retriever is okay for the new miners that want to get out of their cruiser and in to something a little better. Let's face it...the mining barges need some tweaks. For sure the covetor needs to be more accessable.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.02.22 08:24:00 - [15] If you take cost into the calculation and you think that you'll loose one barge on average each week the covetor might be a better choice than the hulk.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.02.22 10:17:00 - [16] Heck, I'd even go so far as saying they should make the Retreiver require 2/2 and the Covetor 4/4 in barge/astrogeo. Like stated so many times, a Hulk is just so much better than a Covetor, it's not even funny, and the skill/ship cost is hardly a "barrier" anymore. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.22 10:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Cpt Fina If you take cost into the calculation and you think that you'll loose one barge on average each week the covetor might be a better choice than the hulk. If you're losing a barge, you're doing something wrong. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Viilaa Caldari OH Corp	Posted - 2008.02.22 11:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Akita T Heck, I'd even go so far as saying they should make the Retreiver require 2/2 and the Covetor 4/4 in barge/astrogeo. Like stated so many times, a Hulk is just so much better than a Covetor, it's not even funny, and the skill/ship cost is hardly a "barrier" anymore. I would agree here. If you change the covetor - which is a good idea - then lower the retriever as well. The retriever is an ok ship (better than a mining cruiser) but I have never flown a Covetor and see no reason to. I had money for my Hulk before I even flew my first Retriever. 100M is not hard to come by for a dedicated miner who understands the market. Viilaa
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.02.22 11:32:00 - [19] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 22/02/2008 11:32:25 Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Cpt Fina If you take cost into the calculation and you think that you'll loose one barge on average each week the covetor might be a better choice than the hulk. If you're losing a barge, you're doing something wrong. Or maybe taking a risk. Oh noes god forbid, ammirite?
Dwissi Amarr Miners Delight	Posted - 2008.02.22 11:51:00 - [20] Hm - i get the point but would like to add something to give the discussion a different tweak: skills are set as game mechanics - prices are not. So its nothing wrong with the skill requirements in theory but with producers lowering price over and over ;) If skills would be dumped down each time producers get into price battles and make stuff discount cheap Eve wouldnt be better than most other nerfed MMORPGs. Not sitting in a hulk yet but being a miner i say: make the bloody skill even more expensive instead of lowering the requirements. *Miners delight - your one stop source for dedicated services and equipment for the mining industry.*

Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Kiki Arnolds Originally by: Ciuby if you are serious about mining, you will learn Mining Barge V anyway :) You miss the point, why use a covetor at all? by the time you get the skills for it, you are only 1 day away from sitting a hulk... Where it would be valuable is while waiting for the weeks it will take for barges V Astro could work, but its a much lower rank skill, and 4->5 of Astro is MUCH faster, to the point that it would still probably make sense to just wait for the hulk. If you can't afford a hulk after 2-3 months of training for it you have bigger problems... Erm... Astrogeology is Rank 3 vs Mining barge at Rank 4. Not that huge a difference... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Darkspawned	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:45:00 - [22] Edited by: Darkspawned on 22/02/2008 12:45:26 Well, though I know it'll cause uproar, since everyone agrees that the skill difference between the covetor and hulk is too small and that this makes the covetor less desireable since the hulk is the ultimate miner, why downgrade the requirements for the covetor, why not upgrade the requirements for the Hulk. TBH it was only recently that I noticed that it only required exhumers lv3 as I was expecting it to be lv5.
Odd Mothball Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.02.22 16:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Darkspawned TBH it was only recently that I noticed that it only required exhumers lv3 as I was expecting it to be lv5. Yep, when I first started looking at the Exhumers, I was shocked at this too, was expecting the Skiff/Mack/Hulk to require lvls 1/3/5 respectively. ----------------------------------------------- "Numero Deus Impare Gaudet"
Kamikazi Maggot	Posted - 2008.02.22 16:44:00 - [24] Think of it from the point of view from a newer player. Covetor is 17-20 million. Hulk is 115-120 million. + 30 million for the exhumers skill. Newer players won't have that much isk to throw around and jump straight to the hulk from the retreiver.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.02.22 16:53:00 - [25] I think you guys are all too young. It was barely a year ago when hulks cost 500 million isk+. When invention came out, the hulk market crashed bad - good for buyers, ****ty for sellers. End of discussion. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Giuseppe Sacco	Posted - 2008.02.22 18:57:00 - [26] Edited by: Giuseppe Sacco on 22/02/2008 18:59:34 Originally by: Pwett I think you guys are all too young. It was barely a year ago when hulks cost 500 million isk+. When invention came out, the hulk market crashed bad - good for buyers, ***ty for sellers. End of discussion. Looking at it that way, there didn't even used to be an internet at all so I guess there's no point flapping our lips about any of this. End of forum. And anyway, 150 mil to get into a hulk only looks like a hurdle until you sit down and add it up (which is what industry types are supposed to be about, right?): if you're in a retriever and have OK skills you can mine 2 cans in about an hour and a half, or at least I can. Depending on what you mine/ how good the system you're in is and if you took the time to get your refining up those two cans can be worth about 5 mil total in high sec; throw in a half hour for misc. hauling and what it works out to is about 25 mil/ week if you only do it 10 hrs/ week. The avg american probably watches TV more than that. Hell the avg miner probably watches TV while* doing that. At that rate it takes about 6 weeks to scratch up 150 mil. How long does it take to train into a covetor? Hey look, on avg that probably comes out to about 6 weeks. How long after that to get into a hulk? 'Bout a day. In my case I got a head full of +3s so I'm having to be a good boy and stay out of low sec but I'll have the training done in 5 weeks. Even so, why would I go to the hassle of buying a covetor, using it for a week and then selling it? OK Pwett maybe the covetor didn't used to be an also- ran, but from where I sit it certainly seems to have become one. Again, I don't see it as a OMGCCPPLZFIX!!!!111 deal, but it is a little funny lookin. -edited because the forum doesn't like the word s c r a p e
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.02.22 19:07:00 - [27] I don't need your sass. He wanted to know why it was like that, I gave the answer. The exact same situation is true between haulers and freighters. Once you get Industrial V, it only takes 3 hours to get into a freighter. The barrier is the ship cost and skill cost, just on a much larger scale which is appropriate for the difference in scale between the two. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Giuseppe Sacco	Posted - 2008.02.22 19:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Pwett I think you guys are all too young. I don't need your sass. End of discussion. Grampa? But... they told me you had died! The OP isn't asking why it's that way, the OP is saying he's noticed the covetor is pretty much sucking eggs these days and he says he has an idea for fixing it. It's no good comparing the freighter/ indy situation because freighters don't make indies obsolete. I know I wouldn't use a freighter to haul for a short 5 man mining op in high sec when it's much easier to use an itty 5. I wouldn't use a freighter to long- distance haul something I could haul faster and safer in an occator. I recognize that maybe it's not a good idea to micromanage stuff like this in an economy that freaks out the way you're describing and that's fine. But at the same time the cov pretty much looks like an orphan and it ought either have some reason to live or else get the axe probably.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.22 20:17:00 - [29] Dude, when I got Eve back in 2004 I was gunning for a Covetor. Anyone who genuinly wants to mine in the game goes for a barge, it was worth the commitment to get the Covetor. Granted the Hulk is out now, but in my opinion the best mining ship in the game should be very - very skill intensive. By that I mean I think they should increase Hulk requirements to Exumers 5 - I have Exhumers 5, I am the perfect miner. Mining was a commitment that paid off when Hulks costed 700M when they were fitted, now everyone flies them like a Raven for ratting. If you are going to complain now about having to train a Rank 4 to 5 to increase laser yield by 3% and get a third turret, then you should go try something else. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Chomapuraku Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.22 22:41:00 - [30] Originally by: Cpt Fina If you take cost into the calculation and you think that you'll loose one barge on average each week the covetor might be a better choice than the hulk. one barge a week?!?! that's like a mission-runner losing one raven a week, or a capitol pilot losing one carrier/dread a week, or a freighter pilot losing one freighter a week. if you're losing your main ship every week and it's not a pvp ship, you need to seriously re-evaluate your choice location and tactics. i lose 1 or 2 hulks a year, and even then, to mistakes i never make again (bubbled stations in 0.0, popped in a belt, jammed by rat frigs, tanking failure)



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