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Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.01 18:55:00 - [31] Edited by: Andrue on 01/03/2008 18:57:31 Blasted forums getting slow, missed a chunk of my last message. What's the big deal if I get rich/run missions in safety anyway? The only impact it has is gives me the funds and confidence to buy the faction gear that comes out of 0.0 and low-sec. It's not like the residents of those areas fit the modules themselves. Who but an Empire mission runner would be prepared to pay 400 mil for a ballistic control system? Me being a billionaire shouldn't affect a fighter in 0.0. If they are envious or need the money they can come join me and compete for the money. If they prefer to fight other players they can stay in 0.0 and use T2 stuff. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.01 19:00:00 - [32] Actually, thats not entirely true Andrue. People fit faction mods here quite alot these days. The problme isn't just you earning cash. It's the fact that anyone with an empire alt can make enough cash to pvp indeterminately. There's no more attrition in Eve. Besides that, you have rewards that don't carry any combat risk, and that's something alot of people (incl me) think is just not right within Eve. It's not so much you, or the individual mission runer out there, it's the principle and the abusable possibilities. To me at least. [center] Old blog
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.01 19:25:00 - [33] Edited by: Andrue on 01/03/2008 19:25:50 Originally by: Rod Blaine Actually, thats not entirely true Andrue. People fit faction mods here quite alot these days. I stand corrected. Maybe that's why the prices have risen a bit recently. Still - I spend my money (or some of it) on stuff that 0.0 sells to me. Me being rich is good for 0.0 to an extent. Quote: The problme isn't just you earning cash. It's the fact that anyone with an empire alt can make enough cash to pvp indeterminately. There's no more attrition in Eve. Although the flip-side of that is that people are more willing to enter combat. Still - for those that need to see their enemy suffer I can see that things aren't as much fun. A concede that it goes against the 0.0 principal but then again 0.0 would be a wasteland of T1 frigates and cruisers without the current liquidity. Quote: Besides that, you have rewards that don't carry any combat risk, and that's something alot of people (incl me) think is just not right within Eve. It's not so much you, or the individual mission runer out there, it's the principle and the abusable possibilities. To me at least. Hmmm. I dispute the lack of risk. Okay speaking personally I have never lost a ship to a mission but from talking to people I seem to be pretty bloody unique there. The difference is that with missions the risk can be entirely mitigated by knowing what you are doing whereas in PvP combat you can never completely remove risk. But I think here we are going to have to agree to disagree. The Eve that I play is pretty much what I want and the changes to Eve over the last couple of years have greatly increased subscriptions and helped ensure the survival of the game. I admit to having few principals as regards game-play. Probably that's why I left 0.0. I log on to have fun and a laugh and Eve in its current state supports that. For people that want to log on to make a point and a name for themselves it might be dissappointing. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Wensbane Amarr Space Voyagers	Posted - 2008.03.01 20:12:00 - [34] Speaking as a casual gamer who honestly enjoys doing missions as well as gaining status within several corporations, and believes this to be a great feature, I must say that the lack of risk makes it a bit boring after a while. Missions (of all levels) are extremely predictable, and while they can be difficult based on what I'm flying and what I've fitted, I very much doubt that I will be losing many (if any) ships anytime soon, if things are to remain the way they are now. With that said, I don't think they will move all Level 4 missions to low level space, as that would force them to admit that their initial plan was completely flawed (even if we already KNOW that it was). However, I still agree that it might fix a lot of the current problems, as it would force us (mission runners) to move into hostile territory in order to gain the "big bucks" where the threat of an enemy player (pirate or otherwise) would again become a reality. Of course we could still STAY in Empire and make a lot less, we wouldn't be "forced" into anything, we would simply be rewarded everytime we decided to face some real danger. As it stands now, we don't have to risk ANYTHING to become both rich and powerful. That just doesn't seem right to me. I obviously don't want to get ganked at every corner, I'm playing this to have some casual fun, but I still think that a ruthless universe like EVE (used to be), should present some SERIOUS obstacles on my way "up". If it doesn't, then I simply do not feel happy when I reach my next goal, I just think: "Yeay, I'm stil a rookie who never learned to ADAPT, but since I put in the time, I'm flying something that was once reserved to the Empire's finest. Look at me GO!"...
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:00:00 - [35] Originally by: Valan Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: Valan The high sec war dec thing is because CCP have made it so you can earn billions in high sec. The whole principle of this game was isk vs risk why should someone have access to the end game without putting any effort in. Fair enough for those who risk millions in investment and use their intellect to get ahead. You don't have to do that anymore in high sec. So a little risk has to be put in or empire needs nerfing ie move level 4s to low sec. No, it isn't/wasnt. There are two levels to play at, risk v reward and effort/time v reward. Level 4's require the latter, 0.0 requires the former. You're going to make me go fish out Dev posts aren't you with the isk vs risk quotes in them. This is why this game is turning into hello kitty. The isk vs risk principle has gone, not only has it gone people have forgot it even existed. But anyway I come back to Empire to make money to PvP because its easier and quicker. I know plenty of people who do. Most of 0.0 is rubbish. Even complexes aren't worth the isk by the time you divide it up. Exploration sites are a fairly poor return also. All level 4s need to go into low sec and then I think the balance between 0.0 and Empire will be addressed somewhat. It all depend on what risk you use to calculate your risk vs reward. The risk of ratting in 0.0 (and I mean ratting, not ratting and fighting for the territory and hunting in PvP and gatecamping and ecc.) is minimal. Put up a cloak, use a cheap BS, use low cost implants. You will make more than level 4 mission runners. Rare loss included. Someone bother you, move some system and you are again ratting to your heart content. Miners have an harder time as the need an infrastructure. If you include the voluntary risk of PvP and of empire building you must then include all the whole package. Isk from POS mining, production of capital ships, resources that you use to improve your territory instead of getting it in your wallet. Essentially you are saying I risk more accepting PvP but I get back only some lousy rat. That is untrue, you get a lot of benefits that generally are shared or absorbed by the corporation/alliance. If you don't get something back from being part of the alliance (not necessary materials gains, it can be the pride of being part of that alliance and the owners of regions X), it mean that you are paying from your wallet to get the alliance rick. Your choice, but then don't protest that rewards are unbalanced. I suspect that if you where doing a survey of the isk value produced in 0.0 including the rewards at the corporation level you would see a very different picture that if you were looking them only at the level of your personal wallet.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:07:00 - [36] Maybe because online games are fun with more people involved? I personally think mission running bears that never leave high sec are either alts or to stupid to realize there in the wrong game. If you want to farm boars there many other games that will cater to you. Why do we hate smackbears? Simple you gripe call for nerfs and after two years of empire life you still don't have a clue of anything besides rats resists.
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:15:00 - [37] Edited by: Andrue on 01/03/2008 21:15:50 Originally by: Corstaad Maybe because online games are fun with more people involved? I personally think mission running bears that never leave high sec are either alts or to stupid to realize there in the wrong game. If you want to farm boars there many other games that will cater to you. Why do we hate smackbears? Simple you gripe call for nerfs and after two years of empire life you still don't have a clue of anything besides rats resists. I suspect you don't have a clue about Empire life. It's true that there are people who never venture outside of an NPC corp but most of us have joined and even helped form player corps. We don't always run missions solo and even when we do we are usually chatting in local or corp chat or on TeamSpeak/Ventrilo. Empire is not full of lonely isolated people playing their own game. It's a vibrant community of like-minded players passing the time of day, exchanging information and helping each other out (or fighting each other). We might not cooperate as closely or as often as those in 0.0 but we are playing an MMORPG and enjoying the Massively Multiplayer aspect of it. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:21:00 - [38] It could be because Empire is a place CCP created. The laws, the stations, the hubs. Many people like the idea of creating a "new" empire in 0.0.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:39:00 - [39] I'm wrong have fun running missions with alts.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Valan All level 4s need to go into low sec and then I think the balance between 0.0 and Empire will be addressed somewhat. So you think that the solution to your problem is to nerf someone else? That makes you a typically selfish carebear in my book. You're right - people who make no effort and take no risks deserve greater rewards than those who do. It's a game. It's about having fun. It's a sandbox multiplayer game. We're competing for scarce resources. Risk-free income distorts the marketplace and thus affects my enjoyment of the game. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

Ronsonol	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:15:00 - [41] I have been following this discussion, in all its many threads for a while and I feel its time to jump in once again. So much anger, so much posturing..... The residents of low sec seem to have three main arguments. I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong. 1.Low sec has a population problem and those players in low sec want more people to venture out there. 2.Those in low sec feel that mission runners are rewarded out of proportion for the effort and risk put into lvl 4 missions. 3.This game is supposed to be a pvp game and lvl 4 missions fly in the face of that. The arguments all have some merit, however I see a critical problem with them all. The intended game play style, whatever that may be, exists in a game set in a capitalist economy. People pay to play. All other arguments will fall to this one. The people who receive our monthly subscription want to make enough money to pay the bills. They seem to be ok with giving us a gaming experience different from other more successful games because this game fills a niche market. People love to talk about Eve as a sandbox, where players impact how the game develops. I think we are seeing that very thing in action. According to CCP's own number, around 2/3rds of the active subscriptions are currently in high sec space. I would be surprised if CCP did anything to anger the majority of Eve players.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:26:00 - [42] Thats a dumb stat with 2/3 because everyone has there alts parked in high sec.
Ronsonol	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:38:00 - [43] Originally by: Corstaad Thats a dumb stat with 2/3 because everyone has there alts parked in high sec. I am sure you can do better than that. Thats a silly and dare I say simple generalization.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:53:00 - [44] Its not ask anyone in low sec or 0.0 where there alts are. With Power of Two everyone and there grams has a alts all over high sec for isk.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Gallente Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:57:00 - [45] Originally by: Ronsonol The residents of low sec seem to have three main arguments. I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong. 1.Low sec has a population problem and those players in low sec want more people to venture out there. 2.Those in low sec feel that mission runners are rewarded out of proportion for the effort and risk put into lvl 4 missions. 3.This game is supposed to be a pvp game and lvl 4 missions fly in the face of that. Without saying that you are wrong per se. The lv4 missions in low sec give the double rewards (or around there) from the lv4 in high sec. There is no sovereignty issue, so it's accessible to anyone. But truth is that few dare it. Maybe because the risk involving to do a lv4 mission in low sec is highly out of balance, since the mission itself is no walk in the park, and the addition of pirates willing to come in the Deadspace and blow your ship is not helping. Low sec is harder than many areas of 0.0 and that is the real problem. This increased risk is what pushes people away from the low sec areas. And thus from 0.0. i wish that CCP would use factional warfare to bring a limited form of sovereignty in the low sec, providing a reason (rewards) to fight. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:57:00 - [46] Edited by: Ulstan on 01/03/2008 23:01:31 Edited by: Ulstan on 01/03/2008 23:00:31 Edited by: Ulstan on 01/03/2008 22:58:57 Here is the thread the OP is talking about: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=715994 As far as risk vs reward of missions goes, that's nonsense. Anyone in hi sec has extremely high reward for very little risk: manufacturers, traders, miners, etc. Mission running is the riskiest occupation in hi sec - no one else runs the risk of losing a 3-4b battleship. Mission running isn't risk free. If it was, the raven wouldn't be the most lost battleship in EVE and the CNR wouldn't be the most lost faction BS in EVE. No one gets mad at the inventors or manufacturers or traders that make millions without even having to undock, and they have far better rewards for much less risk than do mission runners. It all comes down to people angry they can't dictate how hi sec carebears play. It's jealousy and the desire to control how others play, plain and simple. The actual problem spots for risk vs reward are... anything in the pirate infested low sec, and the parts of 0.0 that are completely useless, yet still just as dangerous as the amazing 0.0 spots with awesome ratting. Moreover, hi sec carebears that run missions all day and never leave hi sec have no bad impact on you whatsoever. The actual people you would be complaining about are the folks that PvP in 0.0/low sec, but have trader alts, manufacturer alts, inventor alts, etc to provide them with tons of risk free money from hi sec. Yet you don't actually complain about them, you complain about the inoffensive hi sec carebears. As I said, it all comes down to a selfish and jealous desire to dictate how others play.
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:04:00 - [47] Oh well there is alot to do in 0.0 but nowadays getting a fight there is as fun as going to Jita on sunday prime time. Personally I had lived in 0.0 for 3.5 to 4 yrs but the battle mind set of lets cram as many ppl into 1 system until the node crashes got old.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:04:00 - [48] Originally by: sakana It could be because Empire is a place CCP created. The laws, the stations, the hubs. Many people like the idea of creating a "new" empire in 0.0. The sad part of this statement is if there was more Empire "building" going on and less empire "destroying", there would be more players in 0.0 and it would be high reward, moderate risk. But for every person that actually tries to build something, there are 10 others who just want to tear it apart. Risk vs Reward is screwed because the players in Eve are making it so. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Pantaloon McPants	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:24:00 - [49] Decrease the clone jump time then all us mission runners would pop down and pvp in low sec in the morning and be back running missions in the evening. Problem solved. That is unless you lonely low sec peeps actually want someone to pvp against and not just some fat juicy target.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:33:00 - [50] There is no reason for jumpclones in lowsec yet you guys will never know because your stuck in missions. I'm just trying to let yah know your missing out on EvE. Its total myth about how dangerous low sec and 0.0 is yet you'll never go there because your all important isk/hour ratio. Its like high sec isn't even part of the "sandbox".

Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:56:00 - [51] Edited by: Orgos Khenn on 01/03/2008 23:56:13 Originally by: Corstaad I'm just trying to let yah know your missing out on EvE. ORLY? Forsaking one part of a (rather multi-faceted) game to play another means you miss out on the game entirely? I'm not sure if I smell irony or burning gate camps. ---- One day...one day General will be worth reading.
Quelque Chose Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:57:00 - [52] Originally by: Corstaad Its like high sec isn't even part of the "sandbox". ... sez the guy who evidently thinks Eve is a shooter and not much else. In high sec (and low sec to an extent if you're really clever) you've got way more opportunity to be an entrepreneur if you want, go check out the Buy Orders forum if you don't believe me. People have come up with all kinds of services to offer that don't really fit into the cookie- cutter career paths that are obviously available. The reason they can do that in high sec is because the environment is a lot friendlier to the small businessman, whereas in null sec it looks like you're either on the supply or demand end of the military/ industrial complex and that's it. ______________________________ "Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space."
Pantaloon McPants	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:58:00 - [53] Yeah youÆre right, it was a dumb idea.
Sekket Caldari White-Noise	Posted - 2008.03.02 00:11:00 - [54] Originally by: Gadawan ^ So everyone has to spend countless hours in the game or risk losin your ship to make money so they can try different things in game? Sounds to me like the PVP crowd just wants easy prey... without leaving low sec. Fixed.
Dawnmaiden Gallente Survivors of Freeport 7	Posted - 2008.03.02 00:12:00 - [55] Hello. Not much of a poster but meh... Tonight, 2 friends and me, deciede to go pew pew in low-sec, for the first time ever after 1+ year of playing in high sec. About time? Oh yeah, indeed. However, since we are all 3 pvp newbies, we fitted ourself in a couple of frigs and a dessie. Our PvP skills werent exactly something to yell "Hurray" about, but we could fit webs, scramblers, a jammer and a tracking disruptor. I've been to low-sec a few times myself. Done a lil exploring, but no fighting. Another have been down mining in low-sec and the third have never been to low-sec. Yet, we still prepped and went for it. Just to see how it is, learn it, feel it and have some fun. After 4 hours, of searching for people, we gave up. At only 1 time, did we actually get close to a fight, yet the "victim" warped out before we were in scrambler range and later docked... I'm sure and hoping, that we've just been unlucky. Saw plenty of people around though, but most seemed to be rookie scouts. The only "action" we really had, was the PoS that opened fire on me... guess we came too close lol. So all in all, Low-sec aint really all that bad. Just know what your doing, what others can do, and learn to work that scanner. I'll be going downthere for sure again, hoping to find some pvp fun. Need to learn it anyway. High-sec gets too damn repeatetive (sp?) in the end. Same sorry ore, rats, macro miners...
Val Vympel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.02 00:19:00 - [56] Edited by: Val Vympel on 02/03/2008 00:24:51 Originally by: Cailais Some of its jealousy. Low Sec / .0 dwellers want Empire players to share the same dangers they do whilst playing EVE, thats partly why you see Empire suicide ganks, a High sec war decs - its not always motivated by isk or seeking pvp. Some of it because Low Sec and .0 is genuinely a lot of fun, and the more players involved the more that increases as its more dynamic, and Low Sec / .0 players want to encourage people to experience that aspect of the game. Some of its the need for resources, it's suprisingly hard to come by even basic ships and modules in many areas - there being few players in certain areas means the market is quite depressed, few trade (even though you could make huge profits doing so) because there are few customers. Finally because an increased industrial base would give, the admitedly militant, low sec and .0 player something to fight for and fight over. I ask - whats the point of battling over that high end mineral packed belt if theres no-one to mine it, and no one mining it? "Well done men! We've captured system E-PEEN! The enemy have fled! We are victorious! Send in the mining barges!" "Er....Sir, we dont have any mining barges..no-one can mine.." C. If the denizens of Low-Sec and 0.0 want "Empire Huggers" to experience life on their side of the fence,may I make a suggestion.... Collectivley excercise judicious restraint and not pull the freakin trigger on anything and everything that moves. Hey! Val...we would you like to invite you to our house warming party. We have hired the finest caterer and we will be hosting several games and we will be handing out some great prizes. (Val accepts the invitation) (Val arrives at the party,bearing gifts herself and looking very dapper) (Val rings the bell and the door opens and she takes a step inside....and there upon the foyer she is struck suddenly in the head from behind,bum rushed from the front and punched in the gut,beaten to a bloody and unrecognizable pulp,stripped naked,raped and robbed and tossed headfirst out the front door) later...in the forums Oh! Val why did you not come back? The party was just getting started...What did you think of our hospitality? And by the way...thanks for the gifts they were great.
Pantaloon McPants	Posted - 2008.03.02 00:51:00 - [57] oooooooooooooooooooooooor we could just be done with the sec status hit. Get rid of sec status, lose the insurance if you get Concorded. wonder if that might pump up low sec a bit.
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.02 00:56:00 - [58] From the perspective of a selfish pirate, I want more targets in juicy ships that can put up enough of a fight to get the blood going. Stupendous russian mega-blobs and people ratting in t1 fitted Caracals are getting old. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.02 01:27:00 - [59] Originally by: Ulstan The actual people you would be complaining about are the folks that PvP in 0.0/low sec, but have trader alts, manufacturer alts, inventor alts, etc to provide them with tons of risk free money from hi sec. Yet you don't actually complain about them, you complain about the inoffensive hi sec carebears. As I said, it all comes down to a selfish and jealous desire to dictate how others play. Season with a bucketful of CS-style refugees and your statement is spot on. In other words...Duck Hunt with stats . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Vymorna Grom Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.02 01:42:00 - [60] I just love the role-play opportunities 0.0 offers. A life of clandestine, underworld dealings, danger, high risk, mystery, etc. Working for pirates, criminal organizations . . . Vast, open space . . . often silent, almost serene. It can be hauntingly beautiful. And can turn deadly in a second. When your corp establishes a real presence (with some punch) in an area of null sec, you feel a sense of pride and ownership. I moved out to 0.0 as fast as I could. Life is harder, quite harsher, but oh so fun!



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