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Vorax	Posted - 2004.04.07 01:14:00 - [1] I was just killed by a player while at doing a mission at a spawn site from a bookmark. I heard before that this was not allowed. First, is this still the case? Second is there any hope that CCP will rememburse my stuff? I told the guy that what he was doing was bannable before I was killed, he didn't care and just continued. I saved the log of it. The guys name was Fugazil, a member of Care Bear Exterminators corp. His bio looked like the ramblings of 8 year old on to much Ritalin. If this is legal in the game then I am quitting. I am quite willing to be killed by players when I have a chance of defending myself, but this guy is counting on his victims not being able to or even being ready for a fight. Being killed like that is stupid. If I go into a .4 or lower to mine or pirate hunt in roids, I expect to have to deal with players and I prepare for it. But going to a mission spawn and having someone attack you while you are attacking pirates is a waste of my time and not a game I am willing to play. I hope CCP reads this and puts a foot down on this BS.
jamesw	Posted - 2004.04.07 01:17:00 - [2] Not sure if it is legal or not. Was the spawn location one of the completely "random" ones in the middle of nowhere, or was it at a POI (point of interest) such as a pirate mining station or similar?? When I am agent running I tend to just stick with agents in higher sec systems - that way I dont get sent to 0.4. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
Arciadian	Posted - 2004.04.07 01:19:00 - [3] Edited by: Arciadian on 07/04/2004 01:20:53 opps wrong post
Vorax	Posted - 2004.04.07 01:21:00 - [4] It was one out in the middle of space I think but I don't know for sure. I also do mission in high sec but this one sent me to a .4 It was a level 3 mission. I still have the bookmark but obviosly I am not going back.
jamesw	Posted - 2004.04.07 01:25:00 - [5] This thread should probably head itself over to the missions forum, but anyhow... I remember seeing some posts about how agents will not send you to a system drastically different to their systems sec level. The agent (lvl 3) I use is in an 0.8 system, and has not sent me below 0.5 ever (I dont think he has even sent me as low as 0.5!). "Legal" or not, people will still kill agent runners in 0.4 systems. The best way to aviod this is to get a new agent. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
Darrin Tobruk	Posted - 2004.04.07 01:30:00 - [6] If it was in Aunenen, then I know exactly where this bookmark is. Sounds like Fugazii is up to his old tricks. He nailed one of my corpmates there a while back. Think I'll drop by and say 'hello' sometime... _______________________________________________ Eris Discordia: On the scale of funny and constructive it scores low, real low.
Haratu	Posted - 2004.04.07 01:31:00 - [7] tough luck... pirates appear everywhere, next time it might be wise to check the local channel to see if there are potential pirates around. it would also be wise to warp in at a further distance. I roleplay... there is this computer game called "Earth - The First Genesis" where i play a character in the early 21st century.
Vorax	Posted - 2004.04.07 01:37:00 - [8] Yes it was in Annuen and was Fugazii. I warped in at 60 km, then he left making it look like he just finished doing the mission himself about a minute later after I was heavily engaged with the mission pirates he jumps in and scrambles me, jams me and nukes the hell out of me. Does anyone know if this is considered an exploit and is not allowed for sure? As I said, I saw it posted before that it wasn't allowed, but I want confirmation.
Ulendar	Posted - 2004.04.07 01:56:00 - [9] I dont get the point... Why would killing someone in low security space be a bannable offence?? What am i missing here? To me it sounds like your whining about getting killed in a low security system somewhere where you did not expect to be killed... The thing about being killed is..you most likely will not expect it as you would otherwise just avoid it. I'm sry you think this is a good enough reason to just quit. But somehow i dont think it matters. Personally i dont see this any different as being killed in a belt or at a jumpgate so fact of the matter is... you would have gotten killed sooner or later and at that point quit anyways... So it doesnt matter if you actually get your stuff back now (which i highly doubt). Originally by: cashman It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this. It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
Ronyo Dae'Loki	Posted - 2004.04.07 01:57:00 - [10] Last I heard, camping a mission point was an exploit. You need to petition it. To those who don't understand: he's not complaining about being killed, he's complaining that someone ganked him at the mission bookmark while he was doing the mission. IIRC, this is considered an exploit. ------------- My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants. I <3 ( . Y . )
Imperishable	Posted - 2004.04.07 02:06:00 - [11] I think the problem is that this carebearing of the game every patch is starting to breed a new kind of mentality - that empire space is supposed to be completely safe from players and the only PvP is consensual. Because the risks are low, people start to neglect them completely and then get big surprise when something wrong happens. If there was much more flexible PvP system, then everyone would get used to checking local and be ready to fight or flight. There would be much less unexpected deaths cause everyone would know they are supposed to be on their toes. But it's too late. Now that we are on the path of carebearing the game to death, breeding this mentality in players, when anything bad happens, it'll cause stronger whining each time, which in turn cases more carebear patches... the vicious cycle haha ok, I'm also whining, but for same reason as other people - it's the carebear patches!
Ranger Rikk	Posted - 2004.04.07 02:24:00 - [12] If I want to fight pirates players, I'll go looking for them in the lower zones, guns ablaze and ready to die...but if pirates are going to camp mission points it really takes the fun out of doing missions. Whoever has the biggest ship or best group of friends is effectivly going to control the point, and ruin that agents missions. Everyone using that agent will eventually get that mission, and probably die since the campers are going to know what level the missions are. They'll camp a lvl 2 with a high end crusier, and lvl 3 with a BS, and a 4 with a couple friends. This is either an expoit, or a quick way for CCP to loose a lot of accounts once camping begins. I will also quit Eve if I find I can't complete missions to get the money I need to train the skills to move forward.
Carla Stormwind	Posted - 2004.04.07 02:39:00 - [13] Quote: I think the problem is that this carebearing of the game every patch is starting to breed a new kind of mentality - that empire space is supposed to be completely safe from players and the only PvP is consensual. Because the risks are low, people start to neglect them completely and then get big surprise when something wrong happens. If there was much more flexible PvP system, then everyone would get used to checking local and be ready to fight or flight. There would be much less unexpected deaths cause everyone would know they are supposed to be on their toes. But it's too late. Now that we are on the path of carebearing the game to death, breeding this mentality in players, when anything bad happens, it'll cause stronger whining each time, which in turn cases more carebear patches... the vicious cycle haha ok, I'm also whining, but for same reason as other people - it's the carebear patches! Seriously how much money do you get from killing someone doing level 2 missions in a low end cruiser like a Carcal or a Celestis already engaged in combat and otherwise distracted? Usually nothing! The only reason you do it is for griefing another player who is much lower than you. Piracy would be if he had demanded money before the kill. Why? Because a) you'd most likely have a much better ship b) you'd be outfitted for pvp whereas the mission runner would be armed for pvp. Its also griefing if you talk smack in local imho, a real pirate just kills and kills clean.
Lallante	Posted - 2004.04.07 03:02:00 - [14] i dont really see any problem here: what exactly is wrong with having a little risk in your isk treadmill? Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
Nathan Adler	Posted - 2004.04.07 03:15:00 - [15] Edited by: Nathan Adler on 07/04/2004 03:57:20 If this was a a mission bookmark as in something out in the middle of space, I can see how it can possibly be considered an exploit, although I don't see how it would fit in the classic definition of using a flaw in game mechanics. If, on the other hand, it was at a point of interest type place where there are regular pirates spawns and loot cans, it would be rather foolish to even consider it being an exploit, as those are accessible to almost anyone at any time. Edit: Also, I think telling someone that what they are doing is a bannable offense when it is not is in itself a bad thing to do, and should have a punishment in some cases. Just an opinion, of course, nothing personal.
Demos Q'algryph	Posted - 2004.04.07 03:26:00 - [16] Its not an exploit, it is legal. But, it isnt condoned by alot of the playerbase. Already, early in this thread you hear of someone "policing" by saying he will go and visit that person. In my opinion that is the correct, and only way to police a mmog pvp game. By the community. I dont want anymore rules from ccp, just let the players police other players action in low security space.
Vorax	Posted - 2004.04.07 04:00:00 - [17] Well, we went back to the spot and took him out (Darrin brought some friends). Was nice of them to do that. But I heard back from CCP, yes this is a spot in the middle of no where, but the pirates will spawn there every time and it can be bookmarked. The game mechanics do not create random mission spots "at this time". It is not considered an exploit...to them. The guy did this same thing to many people tonight. So if anyone wants to take a big ass cruiser, a loaded battle ship, or some friends with frigates and camp mission spawns waiting for unprepared people who are lower then you to blow up for kicks...go for it! No need to pirate in asteroids or in 0.0 at all! Why do that? To hard to find people! Why be challenged when you can sit and wait for them to come to you in droves with total confidence you will win! Heck, why do anything other then pirating?? I have a BB and the skills, I should go camp some level 2 and 3 mission spots waiting for prey! I could earn back my ship through extortion and/or loot in an hour or so! Course I would **** people off in droves, but CCP don't care! Woot! Sorry, but thats not my kinda game. It will take many more months before I can defend against this kind of attack and in the mean time I am supposed to just accept it and move on. That doesn't sound like a game, that sounds like work and I don't pay to work. To those enjoying the game though, I hope you don't run into any of these mission campers or if you do, you are strong enough to defend yourself wihtout needing to group up to do missions.
jamesw	Posted - 2004.04.07 04:05:00 - [18] Edited by: jamesw on 07/04/2004 04:07:51 1 Simple Answer - if you cant handle agent running in 0.4 dont do it!! Either get a new agent or reject 0.4 kill missions. If you still cant handle that, get a new agent. For those who find agent running too strenuous or dangerous, go afk mine in Yulai or something - thats pretty safe, and quite fun for those who do not enjoy PvP. Edit: just to expand/reiterate - there are lvl 3 agents who do not send you to low sec. use your map to find them. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2004.04.07 04:06:00 - [19] Quote: Edited by: Nathan Adler on 07/04/2004 03:57:20 If this was a a mission bookmark as in something out in the middle of space, I can see how it can possibly be considered an exploit, although I don't see how it would fit in the classic definition of using a flaw in game mechanics. The flaw being, the system isn't well-written enough to generate truly random bookmarks. In in-game theory, those NPC rats could be absolutely anywhere, so it's flatly impossible for anyone to be camping the spot and waiting for you; in out-game practice, it can be done. In any event, CCP don't use the "classic" definition. It's an exploit if CCP say it's an exploit, and it isn't if they don't. _______ "Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age."
Mephisha	Posted - 2004.04.07 05:36:00 - [20] @Voraz .... try to think of it this way There are 5000 systems in eve At peak times there are 8000 ppl online. Out of these 8000 the vast majority of ppl is non-pirate or honorable. Chances of gates or spawn points being camped by griefers are very very low. For the griefer the same is true. There are so many agents around that chances are low that many ppl will be doing a mission that will bring them to THAT point. Seems to me you were hit by a griefer. Mark his name and "thank" him whenever you can, by blowing up his ship. Other than that ... get another agent (if you don't want to run into him again) and move on. P.s. Set personal standing to -10 and he will show up red on your screen. If he's there and you're not rdy to meet him .. just move away to avoid frustration. ------------------------------------------------ I have seen carebears with claws and PvP-Lords hiding in high sec space. So AWAY with all those terms. We are ALL citizens of EVE.
CAPTmintor	Posted - 2004.04.07 07:38:00 - [21] not bad player name golem from aza corp who uses cheat to kill players. player like need be kick
Deadflip2	Posted - 2004.04.07 07:40:00 - [22] well the gms have improved nowadays, so i think they might reimburse your ship... but i donno if its a exploit or not --- "this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me. I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist OMG im a pretzel!!!
Adriana	Posted - 2004.04.07 08:01:00 - [23] Actually Mephista, the chance of getting a mission runner at a certain spawn point isn't that low. Here's how it works. You the mission runner looks around for the best quality agent you can get. The reason you do this is to get the best rewards. The player rat looks around and knowing that the best rewards are offered by a certain agent camps the PvP spawn point of highly used agents. By doing this you have a high chance of multiple targets, all rigged for PvE NOT PvP. Easy pickings, especially once you let them get into the fight with the NPCs. Not only that, the mission rats oftentimes drop the nice rewards, so the griefer not only gets your mods, they also get the mission drops. Its really a smart way to pirate if you look at it only from the money aspect. So what you have is what I would consider to be an exploit of the mission system. Too bad CCP disagrees. I don't undrstand why they don't see it this way, but oh well. They need to rethink this or they will lose more players. Especially if people start camping the newbie agent mission spawn points like this. Bottom line...this is griefing and should be dealt with harshly. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. -Napoleon Bonaparte
Darrin Tobruk	Posted - 2004.04.07 08:18:00 - [24] Edited by: Darrin Tobruk on 07/04/2004 08:21:10 Quote: @Voraz .... try to think of it this way There are 5000 systems in eve At peak times there are 8000 ppl online. Out of these 8000 the vast majority of ppl is non-pirate or honorable. Chances of gates or spawn points being camped by griefers are very very low. For the griefer the same is true. There are so many agents around that chances are low that many ppl will be doing a mission that will bring them to THAT point. Actually, there were about three people who showed up at the bookmark after we evicted Fugazii for the 30 minutes we were holding it. This guy must be the greatest agent in Eve. Edit: Come to think of it, there were a couple more people who showed up and thought we were camping it, so they left. _______________________________________________ Eris Discordia: On the scale of funny and constructive it scores low, real low.
MrMojo	Posted - 2004.04.07 09:14:00 - [25] Edited by: MrMojo on 07/04/2004 09:18:36 it sounds like Vorax wants all the reward with no risk its 0.4 u accept the mission u accept the risk. the way i see it now is u got some1 to help u extact revenge on the camping fugazii and that is Eve justice asking CCP to make 0.4 100% safe is wrong. what if you turned up and the NPC's warp scrambled and web'd u before ripping your ship apart? would u cry foul and threaten to quit then? the mission had risks appropriate to the system it was in - whether or not those risks are PvE or PvP is not the issue - and those risks reap rewards i dont see Fugazii on here complaining he was ganked at a mission spawn site. he took the risk that someone would come and oust him with force causality - its what makes the universe go round /edit - typo
SlightlyMad	Posted - 2004.04.07 09:18:00 - [26] The slaughtermonkeys that resort to such low tactics are as much carebears as those who mine. There is no challange involved at all camping a missionspot and gank newbies that show up. It has nothing to do with "wanting to PvP". Its just a mindless and unchallanging form of killing and it is very low. That corp is built on alts. Feel free to mail me ingame of any further sightings of people from that paricular corp. * -"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo
MrMojo	Posted - 2004.04.07 09:42:00 - [27] Quote: The slaughtermonkeys that resort to such low tactics are as much carebears as those who mine. There is no challange involved at all camping a missionspot and gank newbies that show up. It has nothing to do with "wanting to PvP". Its just a mindless and unchallanging form of killing and it is very low. That corp is built on alts. Feel free to mail me ingame of any further sightings of people from that paricular corp. the morals involved with Fugazii's actions is a different issue yes it is 'lame' or 'cheap' or whatever emotive u wish to use to describe his tactics - but it is still a tactic and legitimate in the overall scheme of things (whether it is an exploit or not is for CCP to decide as here the exploit would be they didnt intend for these type of situations to arise - but then if they dont tell people they cant do these things then how are players to know...) comparing people who mine with these so-called griefers is ridiculous - firstly because mining is intended. it is the bedrock to the whole eve economy and calling every1 who mines a carebear displays a complete lack of insight - and secondly i dont see these campers whineing in a "carebear" way that they want to be 100% safe while they gank mission runners its 0.4 - concord dont care - u do - do something about it in game and not whinge on forum coz some1 got the better of u (u is used in the generic sense here)
kwoodward	Posted - 2004.04.07 09:50:00 - [28] i regularly do missions in sub 0.4, as such i have a setup that will allow me to get out if need be (when over killing the dom), otherwise i just use a cheap ship i donÆt care about getting splattered. a rule of thumb is tho, if there is someone at the mission point check them out before you engage the npc's, if they are a "bad guy" wait till they warp out if your not sure wait, or if you just donÆt care (usually me) go ahead and take the npc's. I think this is a valid tactic used by pirates (<0.4 should be lawless out of sentry range) but it's quite lame killing cruisers or anyone that is not ready e.g. already engaged. If only concord add bounty and auto mail to a bounty hunter list or something every time someone was killed you would see a lot less camping and another profession come alive. Meow!
SlightlyMad	Posted - 2004.04.07 09:59:00 - [29] Quote: the morals involved with Fugazii's actions is a different issue yes it is 'lame' or 'cheap' or whatever emotive u wish to use to describe his tactics - but it is still a tactic and legitimate in the overall scheme of things (whether it is an exploit or not is for CCP to decide as here the exploit would be they didnt intend for these type of situations to arise - but then if they dont tell people they cant do these things then how are players to know...) comparing people who mine with these so-called griefers is ridiculous - firstly because mining is intended. it is the bedrock to the whole eve economy and calling every1 who mines a carebear displays a complete lack of insight - and secondly i dont see these campers whineing in a "carebear" way that they want to be 100% safe while they gank mission runners its 0.4 - concord dont care - u do - do something about it in game and not whinge on forum coz some1 got the better of u (u is used in the generic sense here) You misunderstood me a bit. My remark about carebears was adressed to those who use it themselves to describe miners and others that doesn't nescessarily want to fight. Its not "whiners" or "carebears" that can destroy the game. All the "nerfs" are instituted because some players take a pleasure in killing really weak people. And to just grief and destroy. Agent missions are a bit flawed, so naturally. Someone comes up with a very fun tactic to camp out and kill whoever warps in. Its about as stupid as those people who lock n00bs at gates to see Concord blow them up. A carebear is not nescessarily one who doesn't want to fight. A carebear is a person that want the game to be as easy as possible just for him * -"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo
MrMojo	Posted - 2004.04.07 14:02:00 - [30] Point taken Slightymad i, personally, dont agree with his tactic and - yes - i agree that these situations can bring future in-game grief through environment adjustments by CCP to counter the complaints however - it is well within our hands - the players - to sort this - to police it as it were and this is exactly what happened when vorax acquired help and chased off fugazii this to me is good. this to me is EVE. threatening to quit because of 1 unfortunate incident is bad i just wish EVE peoples would empower themselves more. Vorax must surely have got great satisfaction when he went back and took revenge. that MUST have felt better than having a whinge on the forum. i would have had the greatest respect for him if his inital post said "i got ganked at a mission spawn site - need help to hand fugazzi his a$$ on a plate"

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