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Khanid Kutie I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.03.11 06:20:00 - [61] i didnt bother reading the rest of the replies. but is it me or is the OP whining about how the RSF is now losing to BoB? If you cant afford sustained action in delve, then gtfo, tbqh. ____________________________________________ Originally by: Thargat They should change the name of CAOD to EvE Zoo. Please to not feed the animals.
Yaay Dum Spiro Spero	Posted - 2008.03.11 06:36:00 - [62] Edited by: Yaay on 11/03/2008 06:43:45 Edited by: Yaay on 11/03/2008 06:38:09 Quite honestly, this may be the first goon I've ever agreed with. 0.0 is broken and it's burning everyone involved out. It's a lot of why you see people either already leaving the great war, never entering the great war, or getting ready to leave the remaining players in this war for something new. Hell, it's why I'm ramping up to take my first contract in my new venture. For those who were there, 25s/Fat for an entire month with a few blobbing for the sake of blobbing exceptions was about the best this game has ever seen. Virtually all fights were in numbers of 100 or less on either side and capital warfare was the exception not the rule. Some will argue differently, but I think most will agree that it was a blast. Before this, everyone got burned out in Feyth. Both sides. It's not fun to POS spam at the levels both sides saw. It's not fun to throw 500 v 300s out and leave the fight up to lag. I will say though that there is 1 real exception to what the Goons say. They brought this on themselves. There were a few flashes of brilliance in their strategy, but in the end, they rellied on blob mechanics that burned them out just as it burned me and everyone else out. BoB wasn't the problem, they were the response. I know that with my fleets at the very least, It wasn't about numbers I had, I just wanted the good fight. It's when it stopped being about the good fights that I knew I had to get out. Like it or not Goons, maybe it's time to take a look at your play style in general. That sentiment goes really to everyone in 0.0. Stop with this tech 1 spam bull, stop with this 2 to 1 ratio crap, stop hiding in stations and realize that it's a game again. FFS pvp is supposed to be about fun, quit taking it out of the game. Honestly I don't believe this guy is complaining about any outcome this war may see. I think he just wants to see this game return to some normalcy. I think he just wants to renergizer himself like a lot of others are doing. I've had many a private chat with a lot of big names in this game, and it's a shame that at the current rate, they wont be around much longer. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=619019IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID
Brother Theos Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 07:12:00 - [63] Originally by: Anahid Brutus We should evacuate absolutely everything we can out of conquerable space, sell it for corp funds or mothball it for the future, and go live in NPC space once again. I'm calling it - Fake Post!
Proplus Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 07:37:00 - [64] Originally by: Yaay nice response while I agree this is still remedial we are talking about
Mostly Amazing Gallente Mostly Amazing Corp	Posted - 2008.03.11 08:01:00 - [65] You guys should considder moving to Geminate now that Tri has pretty much won the isk war with roadkill. -------------- I R Not Completely Amazing, But I R Mostly Amazing
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.11 08:32:00 - [66] I feel like I've read this a long long time ago... --- Join BH-DL Skills
Faekurias Federation Fleet Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 09:20:00 - [67] He said mothball, hurrhurr durr. Sig locked, abuse of use - for more information mail [email protected]
Karanth Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 09:28:00 - [68] Originally by: BoB sucks Originally by: Orange Species :words: :reply: :rebuttal: "Current Earth-Destruction Status"
Anahid Brutus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 09:53:00 - [69] Originally by: Martin VanBuren You know, at first I thought this was a terrible idea for a thread and would get no good replies. Oh lordie how wrong I was and they're still coming, its like the bob guys are having some doubts and need to air them in the open :<
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.11 09:58:00 - [70] Originally by: Anahid Brutus Originally by: Martin VanBuren You know, at first I thought this was a terrible idea for a thread and would get no good replies. Oh lordie how wrong I was and they're still coming, its like the bob guys are having some doubts and need to air them in the open :< You need to fix your filter cos its mostly goons as a percentage posting on this thread bud. Does that mean your doubts are greater than theirs?.
Anahid Brutus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 10:08:00 - [71] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Anahid Brutus Originally by: Martin VanBuren You know, at first I thought this was a terrible idea for a thread and would get no good replies. Oh lordie how wrong I was and they're still coming, its like the bob guys are having some doubts and need to air them in the open :< You need to fix your filter cos its mostly goons as a percentage posting on this thread bud. Does that mean your doubts are greater than theirs?. hmmmmmmmmmm good point
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:17:00 - [72] There is a lot of good stuff in those opening posts. And I donÆt just mean on the level of the ôGoonswarm is failing go Bob!ö (dramabomb) variety. Its actually a very insightful and honest post about some significant issues with the alliance warfare game that everyone is eventually going to have to grapple with (if you ever one day might find yourselves attacking a sitting territorial power or defending against such). The reality is that POS warfare in 0.0 is not a game, it IS a job. It is very very hard and extremely time-consuming and definitely exactly the same kind of timesink and raw-energy grind that eve once upon a time the game resolutely rejected in favour of offline training and advanced economic options for budding entrepreneurs. These days its not about spaceships and larking about and shooting beams of light at each other and laughing about the results, itÆs about co-opting many people into gangs at strange periods of the night and shooting inanimate objects while hauling the parts for other inanimate objects into place to hopefully replace those you are painfully removing at the cost to your own sanity. ItÆs some kind of dreadful ôproject-crunch cubicle-jockey non-paid overtime work or everyone is getting firedö endeavour that probably ranks up there with a trip to a competent dominatrix on the ambiguous pain/pleasure scale of our postmodern times. But letÆs be clear about this. Now that Goonswarm have discovered for themselves that the high end of territorial warfare doesnÆt work (or doesnÆt work for them) or perhaps ôdoesnÆt workö without huge amounts of commitment and isk and organisation and sacrifice and everything else. Lets understand that this problem scales down across every kind of 0.0 territorial dispute possible in the current state of eve ... any old alliance can put up pos, claim sovereignty 3 by default, arrange jump bridges, defend its jammers with capitals while the enemy is forced to shoot a thing with millions of hit points under withering deathstar POS fire only to see a replacement going up at another POS 30mins after the first one drops. Its just Eve at the moment. Its how it works. And if 5000 goons are finding this hard/impossible going imagine how daunting and hopeless this task looks to any smaller alliance facing exactly the same situation at Cyno Jammer POSÆs across the face of Eve. Reality is that Cyno-jammers and POS mechanics are terrible û stepping aside from all partisan sympathies at the moment (of course I want the Goons to lose, I want Bob to win, I want the coalition to fold and destroy itself) but I canÆt in any sort of conscience say other than that CCP need to revisit territorial warfare with dispatch and rebalance matters in favour of attackers and remove change some of the more abusive abilities of defending equipment before they do leech all the will to fight from anyone thinking to make an offensive in 0.0 at all. I respect what BoB have done in surviving this coalition offensive, everyone knows how ludicrously outnumbered, ridiculously outgunned, how frankly immense were the odds brought against them and pretty much nobody expected them to survive let alone prosper in this environment and it is a huge accomplishment û they are committed, talented and immensely professional players who love this game, but possibly the greatest thing they have achieved in the history of Eve is comprehensively demonstrating to the developers one and for all that the alliance warfare model in 0.0 based on sovereignty and defence bonuses from unmanned structure deployment is ultimately broken and ônot fun.ö "I might not have meant anything by it"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:20:00 - [73] If the legacy of the coalition failure in Delve brings the developers to properly visit cyno jammer abilities, sovereignty systems, POS function, and the role of smaller combat in alliance ambitions then it will be their greatest achievement thus far in my opinion. And what Bob have done to the Goons in Delve will be what RA and the rest will do to any other aggressors in times to come. Defensive equipment is more powerful than offensive equipment, fixed infrastructure is massively more powerful than mobile infrastructure û somewhere along the way the POS/Sovereignty developers slipped control and went wild in the laboratories and dreamed up the cyno-jammer which is far and away the worst most game-breaking, content-denying, cheesy auto/win frustration-brewing excuse to actually defending oneÆs own claimed space that eve has ever seen. All conquerable 0.0 will be covered with these things û all capital travel will be by bridges and no sort of tactical surprise will be possible û all because a module is too cheap, too powerful, and too pervasive in its incredible impact on the process of 0.0 warfare. DonÆt blame titans û blame the module that anyone and his dog can buy off the market and anchor at a ridiculously easy to achieve sovereignty 3 level and deny even the appearance of a level playing field to all aggressors. If these things didnÆt exist (or were properly balanced and limited in deployment in some realistic fashion) weÆd right now be seeing climatic capital ship battles in delve with the coalition spending its isk reserves in a desperate and passionate fight to the death against the Bob capital fleet. (And if they didnÆt then weÆd see the Bob capital fleet hitting their home stations and forcing one). WeÆd see an apocalypse of ISK, weÆd see a slaughter of resources û weÆd see dreadnaughts burning, titanÆs exploding, carriers crushed and scattered and the financial impact of the ôgreat warö would impact mineral and equipment costs across the whole of eve. WeÆd see (in short) a proper brutal conclusion to a war between hated rivals and one side or the other would lose everything in a storm of eviscerating financial massacre. (Thats what wars in eve used to be like, believe me). Instead weÆre going to see the ôGreat Warö peter out as both sides retreat from the horrible spectre of POS/Sovereignty warfare because nobody wants to fight a big capital engagement when they could be fighting capitals vs non-capitals in cyno-jammed systems. (if its possible to claim terrain advantage and fight a ludicrous mis-match why would it be otherwise?) Bob vs the Coalition should have been the twilight of the gods, there should have been a battlefield of 200 capital wrecks and multiple dead titans and players quitting the game from the utter depth of financial ruin the conflict brought to them. Instead weÆre going to see some forum trolling, some towers get put up/reinforced and anyone quitting the game is going to do it because they are convinced the alliance territorial warfare game sucks û not because they lost at it. Cyno Jammers have cost us the drama of the great war. They need to go. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Schani Kratnorr Internal Revenue Service	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:22:00 - [74] Edited by: Schani Kratnorr on 11/03/2008 11:22:56 Originally by: Jade Constantine Actual content! Best post in CAOD for 4-5 months, and I mean it! About time someone took a step away from all the BullCrap, stated things from a gamers perspective.
Spike Spiegle Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:13:00 - [75] YAY more words from Jade... So many people now complain that small alliances cant take space with all the cyno jammers around. How do you propose that a small group would ever be able to deffend space against a larger force without them? BoB have pretty much lost any system that isnt jammed proving that they do help the smaller groups, just to deffend against a bigger force not attack. Which makes alot of sence when you thnk of the time and ISK sent in making the space secure in the first place. My only problem with the jammers is that they can just be shot down and put back up. Im sure if Star Faction held space you would be thinking twice about complaining, but you dont so guess we will have to put up with you for a while.
Space Harrier Minmatar Roman Holiday	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:21:00 - [76] In the time it took me to read this post, BoB has earned approximately 4.3 billion ISK in revenue.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:31:00 - [77] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 11/03/2008 12:34:41 Originally by: Spike Spiegle So many people now complain that small alliances cant take space with all the cyno jammers around. Are you saying they are wrong? Or are you saying its possible to move capital ships / blackops around in 0.0 past the current wreath of cyno jammers that are mindlessly easy to deploy and require no real upkeep or oversight? Quote: How do you propose that a small group would ever be able to defend space against a larger force without them? Its an irrelevant question. If a smaller force could actually damage the holdings of a larger force they gain a military currency that can be traded for negotiation and diplomacy (or ongoing guerrilla disruption) What is good for the goose is good for the gander - but at the moment the issue is that defense has a huge advantage in any case - the "larger" force you mention needs to leave a couple of pos gunners and a capital ship or two in a cyno jammed system to make it secure. The "smaller" force cannot counterattack and so loses any ability to make reversals or gain tactical surprise. Quote: BoB have pretty much lost any system that isnt jammed proving that they do help the smaller groups, just to deffend against a bigger force not attack. Which makes alot of sence when you thnk of the time and ISK sent in making the space secure in the first place. My only problem with the jammers is that they can just be shot down and put back up. The time and effort argument is bunkum. Given the cost of battleships/dreadnaughts required to assault jammers/POS the defender is paying absolute peanuts compared to the price the defender is paying to gain near absolute security in most scales of conflict in 0.0. Your problem Spike is that you are seeing this whole issue in the light of the Bob vs Coalition war and you are ignoring the general impact on all other conflicts in 0.0 between different scales of organization. Quote: Im sure if Star Faction held space you would be thinking twice about complaining, but you dont so guess we will have to put up with you for a while. As I've stated already, I want the Coalition to lose. By your logic I should right now be keeping my mouth shut and enjoying the sight of Goons/coalition crying about the impenetrable Delve fortifications shouldn't I? And yet I'm speaking against the very mechanics that mean you cannot win in Delve. Does that compute somehow? Or maybe just maybe I'm concerned about the future gameplay and enjoyable conflict in Eve online above my personal political interests. You know, as a player of an online game rather than brainwashed warrior in e-conflicts and "great war" shenanigans... Step aside from your own partisan blinders for a moment and you'll see the problem. Look at the issues and not the participants and personalities and it will do wonders for your objectivity and judgment. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Bobbechk Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:32:00 - [78] Originally by: Anahid Brutus 7) Virtually every one of our station systems has dozens of moons. 8) We do not have the money to spam small offlines on every moon. i cant see how 60m / pos is so hard to afford in the biggest alliance in eve
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:10:00 - [79] Originally by: Bobbechk Originally by: Anahid Brutus 7) Virtually every one of our station systems has dozens of moons. 8) We do not have the money to spam small offlines on every moon. i cant see how 60m / pos is so hard to afford in the biggest alliance in eve Its because 99% of em do nothing but fly the free t1 friggies, noob ships or shuttles in a big blob and have no idea how to actually make isk or play the game to a reasonable standard.
Arthur Miller GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:17:00 - [80] Originally by: Jade Constantine There is a lot of good stuff in those opening posts. And I donÆt just mean on the level of the ôGoonswarm is failing go Bob!ö (dramabomb) variety. Its actually a very insightful and honest post about some significant issues with the alliance warfare game that everyone is eventually going to have to grapple with (if you ever one day might find yourselves attacking a sitting territorial power or defending against such). The reality is that POS warfare in 0.0 is not a game, it IS a job. It is very very hard and extremely time-consuming and definitely exactly the same kind of timesink and raw-energy grind that eve once upon a time the game resolutely rejected in favour of offline training and advanced economic options for budding entrepreneurs. These days its not about spaceships and larking about and shooting beams of light at each other and laughing about the results, itÆs about co-opting many people into gangs at strange periods of the night and shooting inanimate objects while hauling the parts for other inanimate objects into place to hopefully replace those you are painfully removing at the cost to your own sanity. ItÆs some kind of dreadful ôproject-crunch cubicle-jockey non-paid overtime work or everyone is getting firedö endeavour that probably ranks up there with a trip to a competent dominatrix on the ambiguous pain/pleasure scale of our postmodern times. But letÆs be clear about this. Now that Goonswarm have discovered for themselves that the high end of territorial warfare doesnÆt work (or doesnÆt work for them) or perhaps ôdoesnÆt workö without huge amounts of commitment and isk and organisation and sacrifice and everything else. Lets understand that this problem scales down across every kind of 0.0 territorial dispute possible in the current state of eve ... any old alliance can put up pos, claim sovereignty 3 by default, arrange jump bridges, defend its jammers with capitals while the enemy is forced to shoot a thing with millions of hit points under withering deathstar POS fire only to see a replacement going up at another POS 30mins after the first one drops. Its just Eve at the moment. Its how it works. And if 5000 goons are finding this hard/impossible going imagine how daunting and hopeless this task looks to any smaller alliance facing exactly the same situation at Cyno Jammer POSÆs across the face of Eve. Reality is that Cyno-jammers and POS mechanics are terrible û stepping aside from all partisan sympathies at the moment (of course I want the Goons to lose, I want Bob to win, I want the coalition to fold and destroy itself) but I canÆt in any sort of conscience say other than that CCP need to revisit territorial warfare with dispatch and rebalance matters in favour of attackers and remove change some of the more abusive abilities of defending equipment before they do leech all the will to fight from anyone thinking to make an offensive in 0.0 at all. I respect what BoB have done in surviving this coalition offensive, everyone knows how ludicrously outnumbered, ridiculously outgunned, how frankly immense were the odds brought against them and pretty much nobody expected them to survive let alone prosper in this environment and it is a huge accomplishment û they are committed, talented and immensely professional players who love this game, but possibly the greatest thing they have achieved in the history of Eve is comprehensively demonstrating to the developers one and for all that the alliance warfare model in 0.0 based on sovereignty and defence bonuses from unmanned structure deployment is ultimately broken and ônot fun.ö tl;dr
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:50:00 - [81] I really never expected it to be this good. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Desiderata Fabian GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:14:00 - [82] I feel that for once Jade came pretty close to hitting an actually reasonable point, still it was as ever mired in her trademark pomposity and linguistic contortion until it was all but illegible, but you know good try. The Cosmopolite, as with everything, did a better job of making that point mind. Originally by: Jade Constantine There is a lot of good stuff in those opening posts. Oh dear.
Yaay Dum Spiro Spero	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:20:00 - [83] To answer Jade's 2nd post too... Everyone always looks at this war and thinks about obvious exploits. Yet nobody screams about the simple one's like log on traps or mass log off when an entire capital fleet is bubbled in their own POS while it's being destroyed. It's funny if you've ever petitioned about those incidents as you will often see the total understanding and compassion in a GMs response quickly followed by a sorry, can't help. The more vocal Goons tell about their great victories of taking space while losing virtually every major battle. How on Gods green earth does that make sense. How does it make sense that 60 capital pilots can log off at the exact same time during a particular incident and have a GM say it can't be policed as an exploit? If you want to start talking about the ugly of this war on one side, don't forget to look at the ugly on the other. There's always 3 sides to every story, your's, mine and the truth. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=619019IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:20:00 - [84] Edited by: Garia666 on 11/03/2008 14:22:02 Edited by: Garia666 on 11/03/2008 14:21:20 whahahhaha losers have excuses winners a plan. these are the first posts which you can tell morale is low on goon side and is falling with the day.. without the support Of RA goons are useless and losing. i hope the whole goon player base desides to quit and go play another game. that way its the best for the rest of us.. and dont come with this kind of crap.. when you guys used every means possible to defeat LV youd idnt hear you gusy saying that what you did was wrong or used faulty game machenics.. Quote: CCP Chronotis Amarr boost is coming in a future dev blog, lets keep this on topic
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:23:00 - [85] Originally by: Garia666 Edited by: Garia666 on 11/03/2008 14:22:02 Edited by: Garia666 on 11/03/2008 14:21:20 whahahhaha losers have excuses winners a plan. these are the first posts which you can tell morale is low on goon side and is falling with the day.. without the support Of RA goons are useless and losing. i hope the whole goon player base desides to quit and go play another game. that way its the best for the rest of us.. and dont come with this kind of crap.. when you guys used every means possible to defeat LV youd idnt hear you gusy saying that what you did was wrong or used faulty game machenics.. T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:32:00 - [86] I'll be honest, I didn't read anything in this thread and replied anyways. _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:35:00 - [87] I dunno. Try taking them system by system istead of making a B-line to NOL? Just a thought.
mama guru Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:37:00 - [88] I approve of this thread, its the ultimate Idiot filter. EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:41:00 - [89] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr I dunno. Try taking them system by system istead of making a B-line to NOL? Just a thought. Oh my, look how well informed you are. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Anahid Brutus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:14:00 - [90] Originally by: Garia666 Edited by: Garia666 on 11/03/2008 14:22:02 Edited by: Garia666 on 11/03/2008 14:21:20 whahahhaha losers have excuses winners a plan. these are the first posts which you can tell morale is low on goon side and is falling with the day.. without the support Of RA goons are useless and losing. i hope the whole goon player base desides to quit and go play another game. that way its the best for the rest of us.. and dont come with this kind of crap.. when you guys used every means possible to defeat LV youd idnt hear you gusy saying that what you did was wrong or used faulty game machenics.. bumpin' in hopes of more of this

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