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Volkier Neigh
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Posted - 2008.03.13 04:58:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Volkier Neigh on 13/03/2008 04:58:36
Greetings,
As we all know from the patch notes, there have been some slight improvements to certain ships in the Caldari and Amarr races. Greatly excited by the fact that the Apocalypse was mentioned as one of the ships on the 'improved' list, I've just logged on for the first time after the patch.... only to realise that there was absolutely no change whatsoever to my Apocalypse Navy Issue!
The basic Apocalypse itself, had a 7.5% to optimal range per level booster added in, with the general increase in the overall capacitor to compensate for the lack of the old bonus - which is fair enough - but neither the Paladin, nor the Apocalypse Navy issue had any change done to them whatsoever!
So what you have no - is basically the normal Apoc has MORE cap to begin with than the Navy issue if the pilot's BS skill is less than 5, and the same amount if it is at 5, and an extra bonus to optimal range which the Navy issue does not have!
Now I sincerely hope that this was an honest forgetfulness on the CCP's side, because otherwise you basically have a regular Apoc being a better ship than a Navy issue (which correct me if I'm wrong is supposed to be the elite version of the former), which costs you 1/6th of the price, AND which you can fully insure for it's full price that it's cost you in the first place (compared with the Navy issue which has it's insurance max out at that 1/6th of the price a regular Apoc would cost you)
Is this a known issue, and is it something that CCP forgot to add? Or are the Navy ships SUPPOSED to be worse than the regular ones now? (which if you ask me, doesn't make any common sense whatsoever)
Thanks in advance for reading
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Anaalys Fluuterby
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Posted - 2008.03.13 05:04:00 -
[2]
CCP already stated in teh game design forum that the alterations did not cascade to faction ships.
They are evaluating future changes to those ships.
 Originally by: Audri Fisher
On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Volkier Neigh
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Posted - 2008.03.13 05:12:00 -
[3]
Well gee, does anyone want to buy my fully rigged Apoc Navy for 500mil? It's a bargain since it cost (or used to cost) that or more without them!
Then I can 'upgrade' to the 'regular' Apoc and have enough money left over to rig it and buy 4 more ::D
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Anaalys Fluuterby
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Posted - 2008.03.13 05:13:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Volkier Neigh
Well gee, does anyone want to buy my fully rigged Apoc Navy for 500mil? It's a bargain since it cost (or used to cost) that or more without them!
Then I can 'upgrade' to the 'regular' Apoc and have enough money left over to rig it and buy 4 more ::D
Patience, the Dev did say that they were going to boost the faction ships, just that they hadn't made the decision as to how.
Originally by: Audri Fisher
On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Akita T
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Posted - 2008.03.13 05:14:00 -
[5]
They're messing with the faction ships in the next large patch.
Might want to hold on to yours until then... or sell now, when prices will drop, only to buy back when prices go back up after that patch... your choice.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.13 05:40:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Wu Jiun on 13/03/2008 05:41:10
Just keep it until factional warfare hits. Thats the only thing you can do about it. Thank Fendahl for that. He thought changing the ship like the apoc and then possibly changing it again in 6-12months or whenever said patch hits would erode your trust in him and CCP as a whole.
Also as the navy apoc is much more common and always has been than the standard issue it would probably unbalance the game. Changing the apoc though doesn't induce any balance problems. 
Of course now you have a pile of crap sitting in your hangar and you paid half a billion for it. So tell me how much do you trust Fendahl now?
Also paladin: forget it it won't get changed.
See here: Fendahlian Logic
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Bailey Boy
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Posted - 2008.03.13 05:44:00 -
[7]
Totally agree mate, I was very ****ed off to finally log in and find my Navy Issue Poc an unboosted lemon now.
What's this crap about not cascading to faction? The bloody nerfs surely do without fail.
CCP sort it out and hurry up with the faction catch-up - with interest!
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cal nereus
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Posted - 2008.03.13 06:21:00 -
[8]
By all means, sell the faction ships now so that whoever buys them can sell them at a higher price later after the next boost patch. 
---
Join BH-DL
Skills |
Horas Redwyne
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Posted - 2008.03.13 06:25:00 -
[9]
No need to boost the Paladin and further
About the navy apoc... will have to wait I guess...
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Ogul
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Posted - 2008.03.13 09:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Just keep it until factional warfare hits.
If that one ever hits... IF. Don't hold your breath.
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Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes. |
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Kagura Nikon
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Posted - 2008.03.13 10:01:00 -
[11]
Aa yes really. You gusy REALLY beleive the navy apoc will be boosted soon in future patch? You know pretty much that this will take at least half an year. And i am beign gentl! I would easily expect 1 year!!
half an year where the PREMIUM amarr ship now is VERY VERY worse than the basic one!!! And oo lets see ther IMPERIAL apoc is also worse than the normal apoc!! WOW!
Now, why don 't you go remove 50 CPu from CNR also? Try doign that and then TREY convincing the 20000 owners that this is not a nerf
TAlk about trust CCP.. you think you talk abouth trust, but you have clearly no idea what that is about.
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Hirana Yoshida
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Posted - 2008.03.13 10:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Just keep it until factional warfare hits. Thats the only thing you can do about it. Thank Fendahl for that. He thought changing the ship like the apoc and then possibly changing it again in 6-12months or whenever said patch hits would erode your trust in him and CCP as a whole.
Trust? what trust? CCP is my pusher and I am their innocent hapless customer, trust never enters the equation
In regards to the Navy Apoc, nothing has changed about its usefulness. If you need the extra range of the regular Apoc then by all means swap to it, not sure why this is suddenly a problem unless the setup you are using is sub par to start with.
The power of the Navy issue is the extra lowslot and a tracking enhancer is better than range bonus as it also adds to tracking.
Wu Jiun's advice about keeping it and having patience is sound, next Trinity patch is due summer/fall and is likely to contain some faction related changes.
PS: Please CCP, have the minions cook up faction battle cruisers - I want a Sansha BC!!!!!
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Kagura Nikon
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Just keep it until factional warfare hits. Thats the only thing you can do about it. Thank Fendahl for that. He thought changing the ship like the apoc and then possibly changing it again in 6-12months or whenever said patch hits would erode your trust in him and CCP as a whole.
Trust? what trust? CCP is my pusher and I am their innocent hapless customer, trust never enters the equation
In regards to the Navy Apoc, nothing has changed about its usefulness. If you need the extra range of the regular Apoc then by all means swap to it, not sure why this is suddenly a problem unless the setup you are using is sub par to start with.
The power of the Navy issue is the extra lowslot and a tracking enhancer is better than range bonus as it also adds to tracking.
Wu Jiun's advice about keeping it and having patience is sound, next Trinity patch is due summer/fall and is likely to contain some faction related changes.
PS: Please CCP, have the minions cook up faction battle cruisers - I want a Sansha BC!!!!!
the issue are:
Navy apocs now worth a lot less because they are worthless. Peoel that grind LP in Amarr now los t their prime target for LP buy and resale. Lots of pilots wil not see that Navy apoc has not changes, after all ALL faction ships in game as better than their original ones. SO they will buy and they see that they got busted.
And there gos your trust to drain CCP!!
THis game had a great vision and great designers that created it, but as of lately they seem to be using the worst staff possible to keep it going.
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Durzel
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
CCP already stated in teh game design forum that the alterations did not cascade to faction ships.
They are evaluating future changes to those ships.
Yet, the shield/armour 10% nerfs did.
I had to laugh when I saw "this patch contains no nerfs!" when removing 10% resist across the board is a straight-up nerf whichever way you look at it.
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Horas Redwyne
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:23:00 -
[15]
I dont see that many navy apocs out there. Even an Abbadon is better then a navy appoc when it comes to mission running.
People who are amarr speced and have the isk to buy the Navy apoc should really start looking at the paladin.
And also LPs are better spent on some other gear/ammo if you want to make some profit out of it. Navy Apoc was NOT nerfed and was never a GREAT ship.
Don't see the need for all this whine TBH.
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Nomakai Delateriel
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:48:00 -
[16]
*sigh*
CCP: "Armor has been increased across the board!"
Ships&Modules forum: "It's a nerf to guns!", "It's a nerf to artillery", "It's a nerf to rails!", "It's a nerf to gallente! No, minmatars! No, Amarr! No, caldari!", "Boost to armor? No way! CCP dun do boosting! It's a NURF!".
CCP: "10% reduction across the board to EM armor resists and shield explosive resists"
Ships&Modules forum: "It's a nurf to armor!", "It's nerfing Gallente, Amarr, Minmatars and Caldari! An Amarr PvP nerf!", "Boost to Amarr lasers and missiles? Right, get real. CCP dun do boosting! It's clearly an Amarr nerf no matter that only Amarr deals significant amounts of EM damage and despite the EM reduction Caldari still have better types of ammo to chose from"
Conclusion: If I ever designed a MMORPG (which I won't) I wouldn't want any of you in Beta.
Lasers&EM missiles just got a 15-25% damage boost against Armor omnitanks and minmatar T2 tanks (two of the biggest problem for Amarr there is) and you're going "It's a nerf".
______________________________________________
-You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Incidence
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:52:00 -
[17]
Exactly, the Abaddon is a better ship than the Navy Apocalypse now.
But if only the apocalypse changes would have cascaded to the faction version - the ship could at least become useful in certain situations, whereas now it's useful in none - as it is simpy outshined by the Abaddon.
A good example is mission running, I had my hopes up for the navy apoc to receieve optimal range, as then I could use it for some longer range missions along with pulse lasers. This would deliver good tracking and range compared to tachyons which are good for range but crap for tracking. |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
i don't want you in my imaginary mmorpg
Dude, this is about the navypoc not getting changed. Has nothing to do with what you've written there. Wrong thread.
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Durzel
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:57:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Durzel on 13/03/2008 11:58:37
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
*sigh*
blah
What if you're a mission runner and couldn't give a crap about PvP? 10% reduction in shield explosive & armour EM resists is a flat out nerf for them. Right now with where I am in the game (i.e. early character with low SP) I'm not bothered about inter-faction PvP comparisons, nor do I want to be balanced based on them.
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Tsu'ko
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Posted - 2008.03.13 12:08:00 -
[20]
This *IS* a boost patch stop trolling please, and i'm sorry for the faction ships not getting boosted, they have probably decided to fix those later on so they can deliver a boost patch now, not in two and a half year from now.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of gold.
Amarr simply sit there and charge their lasers, secure in their knowledge that God is on their side.
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Nomakai Delateriel
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Posted - 2008.03.13 12:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Durzel
What if you're a mission runner and couldn't give a crap about PvP? 10% reduction in shield explosive & armour EM resists is a flat out nerf for them. Right now with where I am in the game (i.e. early character with low SP) I'm not bothered about inter-faction PvP comparisons, nor do I want to be balanced based on them.
If you're a mission runner you're automatically running a game that's in your favor.
Granted, I have pretty decent skills myself. But up until level 4s you can run missions that are appropriate for your skill level without even a single hardener for your EM resistances. Even in level 4s EM damage is not a major concern after a single resistance module (active or even passive).
Same thing goes for Explosive damage if you're shieldtanking.
Wake up. EVE is primarily a PvP game. PvE in EVE is way too easy.
We don't have anything even approaching "Kara raiding" and crap like that.
Any balance changes in this game are (always have been, and will hopefully always be) made with PvP in mind. Deal with it.
______________________________________________
-You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Polinus
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Posted - 2008.03.13 12:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Horas Redwyne
I dont see that many navy apocs out there. Even an Abbadon is better then a navy appoc when it comes to mission running.
People who are amarr speced and have the isk to buy the Navy apoc should really start looking at the paladin.
And also LPs are better spent on some other gear/ammo if you want to make some profit out of it. Navy Apoc was NOT nerfed and was never a GREAT ship.
Don't see the need for all this whine TBH.
You cannot spend your LP on other stuff, because other stuff requires an absurd ammount of tags that can only be collected in level 5 missions. Missions that are so stupidly hard that no one runs them because needs so many people to run it that the shared reward is far far lower than level 4.
There is just one explanation for all that LAZYNESS!!!!Not changing the faction ships now is LAZYNESS!! If you need more than 1 day to figure how to balance ANY ship that don involve a new game mechanic, then you should be FIRED! All players have shown several times that even them are able to find appropriate solutions in a few dozen minutes everytime an issue arises!
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Inertial
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Posted - 2008.03.13 13:10:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Inertial on 13/03/2008 13:13:13
Edited by: Inertial on 13/03/2008 13:12:23
Originally by: Polinus
Originally by: Horas Redwyne
I dont see that many navy apocs out there. Even an Abbadon is better then a navy appoc when it comes to mission running.
People who are amarr speced and have the isk to buy the Navy apoc should really start looking at the paladin.
And also LPs are better spent on some other gear/ammo if you want to make some profit out of it. Navy Apoc was NOT nerfed and was never a GREAT ship.
Don't see the need for all this whine TBH.
You cannot spend your LP on other stuff, because other stuff requires an absurd ammount of tags that can only be collected in level 5 missions. Missions that are so stupidly hard that no one runs them because needs so many people to run it that the shared reward is far far lower than level 4.
There is just one explanation for all that LAZYNESS!!!!Not changing the faction ships now is LAZYNESS!! If you need more than 1 day to figure how to balance ANY ship that don involve a new game mechanic, then you should be FIRED! All players have shown several times that even them are able to find appropriate solutions in a few dozen minutes everytime an issue arises!
LOOOK ma, I KNOW everything about GAMEDESIGNING, this is because I have EXTENSIVE EXPIRIENCE as a GAME DESIGNER, and I am CAPITALISING stuff in my sentences to make it look IMPORTANT, not realising what a **** I am!!!!
(The War Against Terrorism)
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Wardeneo
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Posted - 2008.03.13 13:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Volkier Neigh
Edited by: Volkier Neigh on 13/03/2008 05:30:52
Edited by: Volkier Neigh on 13/03/2008 04:58:36
Greetings,
my Apocalypse Navy Issue!
damn u rich ppl :)
wardeneo
If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :) |
Msobe
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Posted - 2008.03.13 13:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Polinus
Originally by: Horas Redwyne
I dont see that many navy apocs out there. Even an Abbadon is better then a navy appoc when it comes to mission running.
People who are amarr speced and have the isk to buy the Navy apoc should really start looking at the paladin.
And also LPs are better spent on some other gear/ammo if you want to make some profit out of it. Navy Apoc was NOT nerfed and was never a GREAT ship.
Don't see the need for all this whine TBH.
You cannot spend your LP on other stuff, because other stuff requires an absurd ammount of tags that can only be collected in level 5 missions. Missions that are so stupidly hard that no one runs them because needs so many people to run it that the shared reward is far far lower than level 4.
There is just one explanation for all that LAZYNESS!!!!Not changing the faction ships now is LAZYNESS!! If you need more than 1 day to figure how to balance ANY ship that don involve a new game mechanic, then you should be FIRED! All players have shown several times that even them are able to find appropriate solutions in a few dozen minutes everytime an issue arises!
I'm sure when people who know nothing at all about your job give you advice on how to do it, you're greateful. And they are usually right - they can see right off how you should be doing things, and you've spent years going about everything the wrong way. Fire all the devs, and hire people like you, instead. That'll get some things accomplished. Read animal farm.
Balancing is not something that should ever be done in a day. Sure, come up with an idea in a day. Implement it on Sisi in a day. Then give players weeks to figure out how they can abuse it. Because its guaranteed they are going to find some way to use a combination of changes in a way that the Dev never even contemplated.
I do think it sucks that the navy issue didn't get a boost. I wasn't playing when the raven got boosted, but if I'm not mistaken, the Navy and State Issue both got the same boost when it did. Maybe its a different situation, since that boost didn't have a boost aimed at factional ships just around the corner . . . but since that patch isn't in a week or two, I don't see it as that different.
I do have a Navy Apoc sitting around. But I wasn't using it before, its no worse off that I don't use it now, either. Life isn't over just because things turned out the way they did . . . take a long walk, smoke a bowl, rock a lil fellatio . . . it'll all be better in the morning. ;-)
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Kauschovar
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Posted - 2008.03.13 20:14:00 -
[26]
I'm just going to ignore the impolite posts ... and pledge: please cascasde the changes to faction ships!
There is a point that now the regular Apoc is better than the faction Apoc ... the latter has an extra slot for that tracking enhancer/computer but it does not compensate really.
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Volkier Neigh
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Posted - 2008.04.16 02:45:00 -
[27]
I'm sorry to resurrect this once again, and to bring it up, but as been mentioned by other people, the devs where reviewing the changes for faction / T2 ships to keep them 'in par' with the improvements they are supposed to give to T1 ships.
Not trying to be a ***** and complain that 'nothing is happening fast enough' - but a patch later, nothing is even remotely mentioned about the fact that the regular apocalypse is STILL significantly better than the Navy Issue apocalypse as per the recent improvements.
Not really going to read through all the posts since the last one I've made on the topic, but as it stands now, fact still remains that if you pin the regular navy against the regular apoc at their optimal ranges, the regular would always win - regardless of the navy's apoc having an extra low slot and whatnot - simply because the regular apoc's turrets would have a 37.5% range bonus.
Now we can all argue until we are blue in the face about how much impact the navy issue's extra low slot and a bit more armor helps vs the increased range, and whether it is worth the extra 400 mil that you cannot insure, but the fact still remains that the Navy Apocalypse was always the improved version of the Apocalypse itself - not a different ship with completely different bonuses etc.
It is exactly the same concept as buying an Nvidia 8900 graphics card to upgrade from your old 8200 (for example) - you would expect the 8900 to do the same things as the 8200 and have MORE processing power / shader rendering etc. - you DON'T expect the 8900 to be able to render more pixels, but at the same time perform WORSE in anti-aliasing (again for example). Note, I didn't go on to compare the same 8900 to, say, 9200 - as that CAN be compared to DIFFERENT ships - not the upgraded / improved version of the same one.
Would it not simply make sense to simply add in the same improvements to all the faction ships, T2 ships, and whatever else improved versions of the same ship T1 ship that had modifications made to it?
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Ehata
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Posted - 2008.04.16 07:43:00 -
[28]
SInce the apoc now has more cpu, pg than NA, the Amarr race should feel lucky that they have a cheap T1 bs better than faction one, just think about the possibility that other race could require to get their raven, mega boosted the same way. It is so unfair that raven is so bad compared to apoc in this aspect.
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Ishina Fel
Caldari
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.04.16 08:30:00 -
[29]
Dear Volker Neigh,
if you are so commited to your Navy Apoc's well-being, how can you so consistently fail at reading the other six dozen threads asking the exact same question and all getting the exact same answer to it? Simply entering "Navy Apoc" as a search query on eve-search would return you more results than you would ever need.
The Navy Apoc will be changed with the factional warfare patch. These changes may or may not leave the ship radically different from the way it is now. And it may or may not still be related to the standard Apoc then. It was strongly implied by CCP posters that adding the optimal range bonus now would make no sense because in a few months it would be changed to something else altogether again.
The factional warfare patch will be an expansion. Therefore there are only two possible release dates - namely, around June(summer expansion), or around November (winter expansion). CCP has adhered to this expansion release cycle for a while now, and have stated that there are no plans to step down from it.
Therefore you will wait in vain for Navy Apoc changes in regular patches. They will not happen, period. The Navy Apoc will be changed with factional warfare, as all other faction ships will. No sooner. And, again, it has been implied that faction ships will get a role distinctly different from their regular counterparts.
Bored during Downtime? Why not try Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN! |
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