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Jeremy Ironforge
White syndicate BattleStar Alliance
17
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Posted - 2012.02.21 07:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
1) Minnie vessels have the 2nd highest PG numbers, and often those numbers aren't that much lower than that of amarr.
2) Same goes for CPU... Horay! We stupid "technologically not advanced" nation sport awesome computers!
3) Meanwhile Autocannons require the least ammount of PG/CPU among turret close range systems.
4) Minnie vessels almost always have more slots! than their same tier counterparts from other races. And since you have ftting resources left...
wtf where's the balance here? Why does the game about ships anwsers the most crucial question - "which ship should I train for?" - with either "Drake" or "Cane" for years now!
PS I know there's Arty that requies hell lot of PG but there are also RCU's and some gallente ships with "-1 slot" to balance things out. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
72
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Posted - 2012.02.21 07:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Minmatar ships have high power grid because artillery takes high amounts of power grid, and CCP wants to make them able to use both.
Gallente ships have gimped fitting because CCP wants you to use blasters on them, not rails. (If you ask them, rails are for Caldari)
Doesn't make much sense, but that's the way it is. |
Alara IonStorm
1649
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Posted - 2012.02.21 07:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote: (If you ask them, rails are for Caldari)
Who have the worse Grid then Gal...
425mm Autocannon II 154 Pg (Largest Med Auto) Focused Pule Laser II 132 Pg (Smallest Med Laser)
Harbinger 1875 Pg, 7 Gun Slots 1 Useless Bonus Hurricane 1771 Pg. 6 Guns Slots and a Second Dmg Bonus
Not very well thought out in general. I do like the fitting buffs on Hybrids.
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Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.02.21 08:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Was under the impression some Gallente hulls were missing a slot to compensate for larger drone bays and ability to field more drones than their counterparts. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
72
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Posted - 2012.02.21 08:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Typically no, unless it's a drone bonused hull....the myrmidon could have another high slot and not be OP, though. |
Trinkets friend
Obstergo NEM3SIS.
144
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Posted - 2012.02.21 08:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Once you go black, you never go back.
You should have got jungle fever like I did. The Minmatar are clearly descended from Touaeg rebels or maybe Somalian pirates, who are genetically similar to the AK-47. Perhaps even the Congolese, who have bullet-spewing machete-wielding unbalanced combat in their heritage.
Remember kids: happiness is a warm machinegun! The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu @trinketsfriend on twatter
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The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
23
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Posted - 2012.02.21 12:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gallente where always fitting restricted for balance reasons, what actually made sense in the days of powerful point blank stop and hit ability, higher speed at medium ranges, where ships had halve of the EHPs, weak active tanks, not every BS was a brick and blaster pvp actually was useful and fun in his solo/small gang niche.
Similar things go to minmatar, you had the flexible fitting options and the extra slot, to balance out the lack of raw hitting power at close range compared to gallente and at range compared to amarr.
But given that CCP seams to be unable to do any kind of meaningful balancing today, talking about it seams like a wast. |
Vladimir Smugdog
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.02.21 12:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Minmatar should retain the ability to opt between ac and arty, but do so by reducing the requirements of artillery/reducing grid/cpu across the boar such that an ac fit doesn't have all and sundry grid/cpu left to play with. It is one thing to have a relatively generous amount of fitting stats (more t1 ships should be a little more forgiving, imo, they are meant for newbs). It is quite another to have a full t2 fit that goes on with copious amounts of extra grid/cpu left over with AWU not even trained. |
Ahrieman
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
41
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Posted - 2012.02.21 14:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.
IMHO, this game is currently very well balanced. There are still some problem ships and broken mechanics, but it's not tied to the major racial differences in ships and modules. Sig tanking is the new black |
Andrea Griffin
125
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Posted - 2012.02.21 14:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Don't change the fittings for the autocannons please, what else am I going to put on my non-damage-bonused Amarr and Caldari gunboats? It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
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Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
253
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Posted - 2012.02.21 16:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ahrieman wrote:The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.
IMHO, this game is currently very well balanced. There are still some problem ships and broken mechanics, but it's not tied to the major racial differences in ships and modules.
Cough, Cough *Angel Ships* Cough, Cough.... |
DaRiKavus
Expendable Asset's
10
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Posted - 2012.02.21 16:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
While we are at it can CCP reduce the optimal of Lazors, the range of missiles, the damage of blasters as well as making sure no ships can go faster than 2000m/s.
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M1k3y Koontz
Taxes Suck Inc.
1
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Posted - 2012.02.21 16:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Remember kids: happiness is a warm machine gun!
DaRiKavus wrote:While we are at it can CCP reduce the optimal of Lazors, the range of missiles, the damage of blasters as well as making sure no ships can go faster than 2000m/s.
Yeah, the gallente have damage, the amarr have range (20km optimal with scorch) and the minmatar have fitting variance.
The races are well balances as they are and should be left alone |
Vladimir Smugdog
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.02.21 16:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ahrieman wrote:The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.
IMHO, this game is currently very well balanced. There are still some problem ships and broken mechanics, but it's not tied to the major racial differences in ships and modules.
Much closer to balanced at "All V's" yes, but there are ways to maintain that while not allowing minmatar hulls to be absolutely dominant at lower fitting skill levels.
(I like how all of a sudden being able to fully t2 fit with AWU-0 is racial flavor that shouldn't be touched.) |
Ryder 3vyn
State Navy
8
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Posted - 2012.02.21 16:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Ahrieman wrote:The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.
IMHO, this game is currently very well balanced. There are still some problem ships and broken mechanics, but it's not tied to the major racial differences in ships and modules. Cough, Cough *Angel Ships* Cough, Cough.... Angel Ships go two ways though, most people seem to forget that, and personally, I by far prefer the Gallente side to them. Let's put it this way, Vigilant > Cynabal, any old day of the week.
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:Was under the impression some Gallente hulls were missing a slot to compensate for larger drone bays and ability to field more drones than their counterparts. Oh so that's the reason why my Incursus has only two low slots and no utility high slot, and also is missing PG and CPU compared to a Rifter. That must also be why my blasters are twice as hard to fit! Because with that one drone it would be pretty unfair of CCP to not completely try and gimp the ship, right?
The funniest part is that the Incursus is still a formidable pvp ship, using either rails for 1v1s, or mwd/blasters for killing tacklers, imo it is far better than the Rifter. That's the best part about Gallente - no matter how much CCP tried to gimp their ships compared to the Minmatar equivalent, they are still able to be equal or better when fit and flown properly, and that is why Gallente have the biggest peen of all the races imo. |
Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
254
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Posted - 2012.02.21 16:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
The Cynabal has a fitting grid that's simply ludicrous.
Cynabal Argument and Pretty Graphs That Aren't Mine
First page has a Cynabal vs. Vigilant example. Enjoy. |
DaRiKavus
Expendable Asset's
10
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Posted - 2012.02.21 16:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:Remember kids: happiness is a warm machine gun! DaRiKavus wrote:While we are at it can CCP reduce the optimal of Lazors, the range of missiles, the damage of blasters as well as making sure no ships can go faster than 2000m/s.
Yeah, the gallente have damage, the amarr have range (20km optimal with scorch) and the minmatar have fitting variance. The races are well balances as they are and should be left alone
I am aware that the races are balanced. I was making the point that each race is able to do something that the other cannot. The OP is basically asking for the usual Minny nerf and I was attempting to be sarcastic. |
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.02.21 17:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quote:The funniest part is that the Incursus is still a formidable pvp ship, using either rails for 1v1s, or mwd/blasters for killing tacklers, imo it is far better than the Rifter. That's the best part about Gallente - no matter how much CCP tried to gimp their ships compared to the Minmatar equivalent, they are still able to be equal or better when fit and flown properly, and that is why Gallente have the biggest peen of all the races imo.
If it's formidable in its current state and better than a rifter then it surely does not need more cpu/pg and additional slots to prevent it from being overpowered.
On another note....nerf angel ships. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2012.02.21 17:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ahrieman wrote:The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.
You're point would have been fantastic other than the fact that matari ships have the best t2 shield resist profile, and ACs have great dmg projection as well as great dmg output via selectable dmg types and double dmg bonuses. Further more their slot layout is brilliant for either plated brawl or ganky shield setups.
You get a 2/10
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Thelron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2012.02.21 17:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Ahrieman wrote:The idea of balance while still making everything useful is built on the notion of asymmetrical ships and modules. While you whine about cpu and pg, you are neglecting things like resist profiles, damage output, ability to project damage, slot layout (not just number), and a host of other things.
You're point would have been fantastic other than the fact that matari ships have the best t2 shield resist profile, and ACs have great dmg projection as well as great dmg output via selectable dmg types and double dmg bonuses. Further more their slot layout is brilliant for either plated brawl or ganky shield setups. You get a 2/10
Addditionally, ACs aren't excesively easy for minnie ships to fit and operate.
ACs are excessively easy to fit and operate on *any* ship. Someone mentioned the Ferox. If I'm looking to fit a Ferox for close-in work, I should be thinking between blasters (which the range bonus makes a bit easier to work with, thus making up for the fact that the thing is about as maneuverable as a rock in a tarpit) and doing something with those 5 launcher hardpoints (thus mitigating the threat of neuts while still hitting decently (HAMs, in theory at least) or maintaining a bit of range (HMLs) or being able to chase off frigates (AMLs)). I should not be strongly considering ACs to get most of the punch I'd get with blasters/HAMs, enough range to not really want HMLs, decent forgiveness vs. frigates, AND cap-less damage.
Leave minnie ships alone (on this, at least), but someone should take a look at the adjustments to ACs and AC-supporting modules over the years as compared to the fitting requirements of ACs... might be worth a tweak.
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Jeremy Ironforge
White syndicate BattleStar Alliance
19
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Posted - 2012.02.21 17:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ahh just tried a Meta3 guns Armor Cane VS a T2 fitted Armor Harby. Guess who won?
Now that's ridiculous cuz Harby wasn't drained or jammed... Just outanked and outdpsed at all ranges. |
Vladimir Smugdog
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.02.21 17:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
Just wait til you figure out how to use neuts! |
Jeremy Ironforge
White syndicate BattleStar Alliance
19
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Posted - 2012.02.21 17:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
^ Cap boosters... Armor Cane has only one neut which is not enough to break through. |
Vladimir Smugdog
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.02.21 17:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:^ Cap boosters... Armor Cane has only one neut which is not enough to break through.
We call it a "dual-neut plated cane," for a reason.
And with a pair of meta neuts it fits with without a single point in advanced weapon upgrades. Ironically, this is actually a TIGHT fit compared to most cane fits out there. |
Jeremy Ironforge
White syndicate BattleStar Alliance
19
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Posted - 2012.02.21 17:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Had 425mm guns)). Still easily chewed through and even had time to switch ammo.
The only possibilty of victory for a Harby was an engagement at 20km+ where it used scorch and my dps was gimped. Seemed kinda ridiculous due to the 74% EM resistance in the armor but he got me to 10% in armor before I chewed on his structure. |
DaRiKavus
Expendable Asset's
11
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Posted - 2012.02.21 18:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:Had 425mm guns)). Still easily chewed through and even had time to switch ammo.
The only possibilty of victory for a Harby was an engagement at 20km+ where it used scorch and my dps was gimped. Seemed kinda ridiculous due to the 74% EM resistance in the armor but he got me to 10% in armor before I chewed on his structure.
2 x HS II 2 x TE II
Nano Harby has a FAR superior optimal than an armoured cane therefore the Canes DPS is gimped not yours.
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mecubed
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2012.02.21 18:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:Remember kids: happiness is a warm machine gun! DaRiKavus wrote:While we are at it can CCP reduce the optimal of Lazors, the range of missiles, the damage of blasters as well as making sure no ships can go faster than 2000m/s.
Yeah, the gallente have damage, the amarr have range (20km optimal with scorch) and the minmatar have fitting variance. The races are well balances as they are and should be left alone
You failed to mention that Minnie also have better resist profiles, better speed, small sig radius, ridiculous alpha on their arties, able to project damage better at range, still have selectable damage types and better utility than everyone else.
They can also use missiles if they choose. They still have great dps to boot.
Essentially minnie ships have every pvp advantage over everyone else.
No... no biased there.....
Hell, must be nice to have the best ships of all categories except for carrier and t3, in which a loki is probably the 2nd most used t3 next to tengu.
The tengu and drake are the only caldari ships worth using, and one is getting nerfed because minnie pilots whined too much because the cane cant insta beat it, and neut it to the ground like everything else.
What other race can say, I have battleships with Battle cruiser sig radius and speed and still have BS damage.
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Vladimir Smugdog
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.02.21 18:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
DaRiKavus wrote:Jeremy Ironforge wrote:Had 425mm guns)). Still easily chewed through and even had time to switch ammo.
The only possibilty of victory for a Harby was an engagement at 20km+ where it used scorch and my dps was gimped. Seemed kinda ridiculous due to the 74% EM resistance in the armor but he got me to 10% in armor before I chewed on his structure. 2 x HS II 2 x TE II Nano Harby has a FAR superior optimal than an armoured cane therefore the Canes DPS is gimped not yours.
Try fitting said harb with no AWU. lol |
Vokradacka
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.02.21 18:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
BTW: can someone explain ....
Why short range missile weapons (mid+large) have bigger PG\CPU demands than long range....??? opposite to ALL other weapon systems in game??? thats dumb , isnt it? |
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.02.21 18:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
/quote]You failed to mention that Minnie also have better resist profiles, better speed, small sig radius, ridiculous alpha on their arties, able to project damage better at range, still have selectable damage types and better utility than everyone else.
They can also use missiles if they choose. They still have great dps to boot.
Essentially minnie ships have every pvp advantage over everyone else.
No... no biased there.....
Hell, must be nice to have the best ships of all categories except for carrier and t3, in which a loki is probably the 2nd most used t3 next to tengu.
The tengu and drake are the only caldari ships worth using, and one is getting nerfed because minnie pilots whined too much because the cane cant insta beat it, and neut it to the ground like everything else.
What other race can say, I have battleships with Battle cruiser sig radius and speed and still have BS damage.[/quote]
We have kinetic damage for mid range (barrage) which falls short, DPS projection wise, compared to lasers.
At short ranges, gallente literally melt our hulls due to minnie inability to brawl properly.
Hurricane could use a small nerf BUT a single problem hull should not justify a race-wide nerf.
If missiles are such a problem (lol), remove them from minmatar repertoire, replacing all missile hull bonuses for something more useful. I'm sure alot of people would love that to happen, from minnie side, since split weapon system gimps a few minmatar ships. I'd love seeing typhoon with different bonuses, for sure.
Drake isn't being nerfed, it is being buffed. Am sure there are several threads you can search to discuss it.
Finally, angel ships are NOT minmatar. By that logic, nerf gallente alongside minmatar since one of the bonuses (and the most problematic one) is a GALLENTE one.
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