EVE Search - New Apoc + Mega Pulse = too good?

All Channels

Ships and Modules

New Apoc + Mega Pulse = too good?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Indigo Johnson	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:03:00 - [1] Something like [Highs] = 8 MP II (scorch) [Mids] = 2 SBII, 2 TCII [Lows] = 3 HSII, 2 TE, 2 plates (???) Rigs: 3 x Energy Locus Cordinator I Ok, so rational debate is something in rare supply usually on these boards but the above can track v well and with a buddy in a logistic ship with 2-3 remote TCs on you you will be able to hit alittle past 200km. Does this smell of overpowered?
Lord WarATron	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:09:00 - [2] Originally by: Indigo Johnson Something like [Highs] = 8 MP II (scorch) [Mids] = 2 SBII, 2 TCII [Lows] = 3 HSII, 2 TE, 2 plates (???) Rigs: 3 x Energy Locus Cordinator I Ok, so rational debate is something in rare supply usually on these boards but the above can track v well and with a buddy in a logistic ship with 2-3 remote TCs on you you will be able to hit alittle past 200km. Does this smell of overpowered? A Blaster Rokh can hit something like 80-100km if he also has a gang of remote TC's in a logistic ship, just like you are doing. I just dont see your point here...... -- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Billion Isk Mission
Alowishus	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:10:00 - [3] Take that and add the Armageddon ROF bonus and you're where Mega Pulse were at before the big Mega Pulse 'nerf' (range reduction). How does the damage compare with any other sniping BS with a logistics ship and 2-3 TCs taking it out to 200km? /makes fart noise Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Rialtor	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:10:00 - [4] Originally by: Indigo Johnson Something like [Highs] = 8 MP II (scorch) [Mids] = 2 SBII, 2 TCII [Lows] = 3 HSII, 2 TE, 2 plates (???) Rigs: 3 x Energy Locus Cordinator I Ok, so rational debate is something in rare supply usually on these boards but the above can track v well and with a buddy in a logistic ship with 2-3 remote TCs on you you will be able to hit alittle past 200km. Does this smell of overpowered? Does it deal more damage than 2 real snipers? ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Indigo Johnson	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:13:00 - [5] Originally by: Lord WarATron I just dont see your point here...... Obviously the inclusion of a logistic/alt is a bit over the top but even without it the ship will still have an optimum exceeding 100km and track v well. Obviously the setup is not a solo one and there are many what ifs to consider but...well, just seems alittle strange/wrongish for a ship to be able to hit so far and track so well /shrug.
Indigo Johnson	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Rialtor Does it deal more damage than 2 real snipers? Just going on the theory, i work it out that a max skilled pilot will do 580ish dps from the guns alone. Add in 3 sentries and that rises to 700ish?
Ryysa	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:25:00 - [7] Sentries don't hit at 200km. Your entire comparison is flawed because you include a logistics ship. Get ranges without logistic ship. And suddenly it's not so impressive anymore. It is below range of typical fleet battles, so it can't do much in a fleet battle. And where else would you use it anyway? Don't see any valid point. EW Guide - KB Tool - My Music
Indigo Johnson	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:36:00 - [8] I didn't say it was going to be for a fleet fight and make no assumptions bar the following: Is it right that such a ship can hit and track past 100km and do 500dps to a stationary or slow moving target. Drones are a side issue, ignore them with the logistic is included for "fun". For sake of comparison, lets take an AC tempest with 3 dmg mods, 6 x 800mmII AC (with barrage) and 2 CML II (with devastor missiles) with 2 TC II and 2 TE II and 3 Falloff rigs I fitted (hopefully thats a fair comparison setup correct me if you think im wrong). According to EFT that has a range of optimal + 1/2 falloff of 50ish km where it will be doing 315ish or so dps. To add the logistic ship in would be alittle pointless i think because you can't get remote falloff extension modules to my knowledge.
Ryysa	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:39:00 - [9] Edited by: Ryysa on 13/03/2008 20:40:15 That tempest would have some tank and tackle gear, your apoc doesn't. Fitting TC/TE on tempest is a waste. (they don't affect falloff). Either way, too much EFT. That setup is completely useless in 99% of cases. EW Guide - KB Tool - My Music
Wideen	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:40:00 - [10] different weapon systems. must we really discuss this over and over again? Pros/cons, upsides/downsides. Btw I rly like that setup of yours, it'll get raped straight off the gate but sure, sit there with your two plates and tracking enhancers/computers and feel happy that you can hit targets from 100km. Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Kruel	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:41:00 - [11] It's not a realistic use for the Apoc, so no I don't think MPIIs + Apoc = too good. Sounds like a fun thing to try, but I wouldn't buy 3x optimal rigs simply because you can't switch them out. Like a one-trick pony, it would only be good at what you suggest.
Emperor D'Hoffryn	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:44:00 - [12] Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 13/03/2008 20:44:37 Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 13/03/2008 20:44:17 Originally by: Indigo Johnson Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 13/03/2008 20:38:19 I didn't say it was going to be for a fleet fight and make no assumptions bar the following: Is it right that such a ship can hit and track past 100km and do 500dps to a stationary or slow moving target. Drones are a side issue, ignore them with the logistic is included for "fun". For sake of comparison, lets take an AC tempest with 3 dmg mods, 6 x 800mmII AC (with barrage) and 2 CML II (with devastor missiles) with 2 TC II and 2 TE II and 3 Falloff rigs I fitted (hopefully thats a fair comparison setup correct me if you think im wrong). According to EFT that has a range of optimal + 1/2 falloff of 50ish km where it will be doing 315ish or so dps at that range, at its optimal it will doing around 730ish. To add the logistic ship in would be alittle pointless i think because you can't get remote falloff extension modules to my knowledge. all you really proved is that minnies need some love the max range pulse apoc is primarily due to a bug that makes the optimal range rigs not stack properly with the TEs/TCs. Once thats fixed, it wouldnt be QUITE so silly. Even now, while its not fixed, its not a big deal. Might be some fringe uses where you could make it work....just like 250km optimal rokhs, but you are just not going to see these flying around. Originally by: Meridius Dex I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability
Indigo Johnson	Posted - 2008.03.13 20:51:00 - [13] Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 13/03/2008 20:51:49 Ok, seems fine to some people and not to others. I admit, EFT isn't a true reflection of in game dps values etc and i didn't know the bug was TE and optimal laser rigs didn't stack, cheers for thoughts.
Lord WarATron	Posted - 2008.03.13 21:01:00 - [14] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/03/2008 21:03:17 1 megapulse apoc + multiple logistic ships using tracking links is weaker than just getting the whole gang into snipers. You can boost a Rokh with Blasters for silly ranges. You can boost antimatter Railgun Rokh upto 249km as well. Is this unbalanced? Like I said, gimmik setups dont make sense, so I just dont see your point here. If all those logistic ships were in snipers, then you would have a more effective force. -- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Billion Isk Mission
Hafsteinn Oskar1	Posted - 2008.03.13 22:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/03/2008 21:03:17 1 megapulse apoc + multiple logistic ships using tracking links is weaker than just getting the whole gang into snipers. You can boost a Rokh with Blasters for silly ranges. You can boost antimatter Railgun Rokh upto 249km as well. Is this unbalanced? Like I said, gimmik setups dont make sense, so I just dont see your point here. If all those logistic ships were in snipers, then you would have a more effective force. You only need 1.
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.13 22:13:00 - [16] Can support 5 pulse apocs with 2 logistics to get 550-600 DPS @ 200km. 7 traditional snipers do less damage with less tracking at that range (0.04 vs <0.005).
Ogul	Posted - 2008.03.13 22:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Can support 5 pulse apocs with 2 logistics to get 550-600 DPS @ 200km. 7 traditional snipers do less damage with less tracking at that range (0.04 vs <0.005). And the loss of 1 logistic ship takes 3 of those apocs out of the picture. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.13 22:31:00 - [18] Show me killboard link of actual combat where "uber pulse apocs" were used. Until you do so "proof or stfu".
arbalesttom	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:02:00 - [19] Yes please, nerf the apoc, its a overpowered ship. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. Originally by: Mitnal Locked, one troll after another. Mitnal, Community Representative
Arian Snow	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:22:00 - [20] Edited by: Arian Snow on 13/03/2008 23:24:26 Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Can support 5 pulse apocs with 2 logistics to get 550-600 DPS @ 200km. 7 traditional snipers do less damage with less tracking at that range (0.04 vs <0.005). If you can make those tactics work in a group, then all power to you. This is one of the myriad of useless theorycraft threads thats having prevalence in the Eve-O forums these days. A bad sideeffect of EFT and Quickfit. ----------------------------------------------- I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
Darth Pheonix	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:25:00 - [21] The new Apoc is actually more broken as a sniper ship. Try this setup in eft: 2x Tracking Enhancer II 3x Heat Sink II 2x Beta Reactor Control: Reaction Control I 4x Sensor Booster II [2 Range Scripts, 1 Scan Res Script] 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Gets 401 dps (best dps by a HUGE margin), and has about the same range as the rokh. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
The Egghead	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Indigo Johnson Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 13/03/2008 20:38:19 Is it right that such a ship can hit and track past 100km and do 500dps to a stationary or slow moving target. You mean like a cruise raven?
super bomberman	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:31:00 - [23] No body with any sense flew the poc pre patch with mp coz it did crap dps, now post patch with a full set of op range rigs and te's + sensor boosters and scorch u can hit up to about 80km solo with mp, tho the shuttle ur shooting will probably just laugh and smack u in local as u fail to break the natural regen of his shields
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:35:00 - [24] Originally by: Darth Pheonix The new Apoc is actually more broken as a sniper ship. Try this setup in eft: 2x Tracking Enhancer II 3x Heat Sink II 2x Beta Reactor Control: Reaction Control I 4x Sensor Booster II [2 Range Scripts, 1 Scan Res Script] 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Gets 401 dps (best dps by a HUGE margin), and has about the same range as the rokh. Where's your mwd? Also, hyperion can do similar dps.
Darth Pheonix	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:36:00 - [25] Originally by: Gamesguy Where's your mwd? Also, hyperion can do similar dps. It can fit a MWD on there if you wish, drop a sensor booster. A hype can do similar dps, but at 212 optimal and 25 falloff? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:53:00 - [26] Originally by: Darth Pheonix It can fit a MWD on there if you wish, drop a sensor booster. Doesnt fit, not enough PG, you need t2 RCUs. Quote: A hype can do similar dps, but at 212 optimal and 25 falloff? edit: Not saying that the Apoc didn't need this boost, it did. I just think they over did it a little. Hyperion does exactly the same dps with 183 optimal+30falloff. However, it has far more hp so you have more time to warp out, in addition, fleet combat generally doesnt happen past 190km, because after that very few ships can hit.
Darth Pheonix	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Gamesguy Doesnt fit, not enough PG, you need t2 RCUs. Hyperion does exactly the same dps with 183 optimal+30falloff. However, it has far more hp so you have more time to warp out, in addition, fleet combat generally doesnt happen past 190km, because after that very few ships can hit. Try a t1 MWD, that should fit (I know, you should use t2, but I've gotten away with tech 1s in TRI before ) I understand that there are ships that can reach close to the range, but why should anyone fly anything else if it's going to be out ranged and/or out damaged by a single ship?
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.03.14 00:07:00 - [28] Originally by: Darth Pheonix Try a t1 MWD, that should fit (I know, you should use t2, but I've gotten away with tech 1s in TRI before ) Still doesnt fit, you're short like 1500PG, the difference between t1 and t2 is only like 250 grid. Quote: I understand that there are ships that can reach close to the range, but why should anyone fly anything else if it's going to be out ranged and/or out damaged by a single ship? God forbid amarr have the best ship in the class for something. Why should anyone fly anything but eagles for anti-support roles(ie muninn/zealot/cerb) when its by far the best one at it?
Darth Pheonix	Posted - 2008.03.14 00:11:00 - [29] Originally by: Gamesguy Still doesnt fit, you're short like 1500PG, the difference between t1 and t2 is only like 250 grid. God forbid amarr have the best ship in the class for something. Why should anyone fly anything but eagles for anti-support roles(ie muninn/zealot/cerb) when its by far the best one at it? Something is wrong with your EFT, because it fits in game and in EFT. Not saying Amarr shouldn't have a good ship (so defensive ), just saying it shouldn't be so grossly better than everythign else that there is no reason to fly anything else in that role. And that goes for any race/class/ship, etc. And if eagles really out class all the other ships meant for that role, then eagles need to be looked at too .
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.03.14 00:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Darth Pheonix Something is wrong with your EFT, because it fits in game and in EFT. I know for a fact it doesnt fit without t2 RCUs. Quote: Not saying Amarr shouldn't have a good ship (so defensive ), just saying it shouldn't be so grossly better than everythign else that there is no reason to fly anything else in that role. And that goes for any race/class/ship, etc. Please, my amarr main(this char) is stuck in one ship, I don't eve pvp with amarr ships anymore. Quote: And if eagles really out class all the other ships meant for that role, then eagles need to be looked at too . Eagles were better than all other anti-support hacs before, and it just got another boost in the patch.
Darth Pheonix	Posted - 2008.03.14 00:25:00 - [31] Edited by: Darth Pheonix on 14/03/2008 00:26:24 Originally by: Gamesguy I know for a fact it doesnt fit without t2 RCUs. --------------- Please, my amarr main(this char) is stuck in one ship, I don't eve pvp with amarr ships anymore. --------------- Eagles were better than all other anti-support hacs before, and it just got another boost in the patch. It does fit: Linkage I'm not trying to steal your amarr lazors o' d00m (d00m, doom, I'm so clever ), just saying, I know what I'm flying in fleet from now on because it's SOOOOO much better than all the other sniper ships out there. Eagles: I'm looking at them now, they look just as broken as the new Apoc. Looks like CCP botched again.
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.03.14 00:26:00 - [32] Edited by: Goumindong on 14/03/2008 00:27:21 Sorry gamesguy, he is right, the Optimal bonused Apoc is overpowered. All amarr needed was to be able to fit tachs on The Geddon or Abaddon without fitting mods, or with one fitting mod. Hell, they could have made the Apoc a dedicated sniper by doing this 8/4/7 50 cubes/100 bandwidth 7 turrets, 2 launchers +5% Damage/level -10% cap use/level Enough CPU and Powergrid to fit tachs and an MWD without a fitting module. High DPS and decent volley damage at good enough ranges and with good cap use. Still useless at short ranges. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.03.14 00:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Darth Pheonix It does fit: Linkage Bleh, forgot apoc got more grid in the patch. Quote: I'm not trying to steal your amarr lazors o' d00m (d00m, doom, I'm so clever ), just saying, I know what I'm flying in fleet from now on because it's SOOOOO much better than all the other sniper ships out there. I don't fly amarr sub-capitals anymore. So the patch only nerfs me(less em resist). Mostly pvps with a minnie alt now.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.14 00:49:00 - [34] Originally by: Indigo Johnson Something like [Highs] = 8 MP II (scorch) [Mids] = 2 SBII, 2 TCII [Lows] = 3 HSII, 2 TE, 2 plates (???) Rigs: 3 x Energy Locus Cordinator I Ok, so rational debate is something in rare supply usually on these boards but the above can track v well and with a buddy in a logistic ship with 2-3 remote TCs on you you will be able to hit alittle past 200km. Does this smell of overpowered? And people wonder why I post alot of counter arguments in boost-minmatar/gallente threads. This thread is beyond stupid. Apoc needed a buff, deal with it. Play eve on tranq, not sisi nor eft and get a life aswell. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Msobe	Posted - 2008.03.14 00:50:00 - [35] Apoc + MP <> OP Apoc + MP + non-stack nerfed range mods/rigs = OP The issue is with the range mods/rigs. You could already do the same kind of silliness with, say, a Zealot, but its not something that really makes sense to actually do. Since the rigs say they are stack nerfed with mods, and they aren't, its a clear cut bug. So - there's a bug you can exploit to get silly range on ships with range bonus - but you'd rather complain about the ship, not the bug? Go EFT some fits that don't rely on the rigs being broken, and see what kinda ranges you get.
Jade190	Posted - 2008.03.14 00:55:00 - [36] Edited by: Jade190 on 14/03/2008 00:56:32 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer And people wonder why I post alot of counter arguments in boost-minmatar/gallente threads. This thread is beyond stupid. Apoc needed a buff, deal with it. Play eve on tranq, not sisi nor eft and get a life aswell. Lyria, all I ever see you do is whine on forum threads. Why don't you get a life and stop being a forum *****. You know the ship is overpowered. Whether it be because of the mods or whatever, it needs to be fixed just like a lot of other things in this game, including the forum whinage. ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:01:00 - [37] Originally by: Jade190 Edited by: Jade190 on 14/03/2008 00:56:32 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer And people wonder why I post alot of counter arguments in boost-minmatar/gallente threads. This thread is beyond stupid. Apoc needed a buff, deal with it. Play eve on tranq, not sisi nor eft and get a life aswell. Lyria, all I ever see you do is whine on forum threads. Why don't you get a life and stop being a forum *****. You know the ship is overpowered. Whether it be because of the mods or whatever, it needs to be fixed just like a lot of other things in this game, including the forum whinage. Geez, why is the eve community so up-tight about everything. Chill. Its just a friggin forum discussion. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Jade190	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Geez, why is the eve community so up-tight about everything. Chill. Its just a friggin forum discussion. You made some remarks that I found offensive, causing me to respond in a negative. Don't like it? Don't attack people (telling them to get a life). They are tryign to make an argument, just like everyone else here. ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:06:00 - [39] Originally by: Jade190 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Geez, why is the eve community so up-tight about everything. Chill. Its just a friggin forum discussion. You made some remarks that I found offensive, causing me to respond in a negative. Don't like it? Don't attack people (telling them to get a life). They are tryign to make an argument, just like everyone else here. I dont mind people getting snappy. Its just that people dont listen unless you talk like an uptight royalty while discussing a friggin game. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Jade190	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:10:00 - [40] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I dont mind people getting snappy. Its just that people dont listen unless you talk like an uptight royalty while discussing a friggin game. I can agree with that. But this isn't the place to discuss it. New apoc needs adjustment. Plain & simple. ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:11:00 - [41] Originally by: Jade190 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I dont mind people getting snappy. Its just that people dont listen unless you talk like an uptight royalty while discussing a friggin game. I can agree with that. But this isn't the place to discuss it. New apoc needs adjustment. Plain & simple. No, its the range rigs that need stacking added. The apoc bonuses are fine. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:12:00 - [42] Originally by: Jade190 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I dont mind people getting snappy. Its just that people dont listen unless you talk like an uptight royalty while discussing a friggin game. I can agree with that. But this isn't the place to discuss it. New apoc needs adjustment. Plain & simple. No, the range rigs need to stack. The apoc bonuses are fine. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Jade190	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:18:00 - [43] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No, the range rigs need to stack. The apoc bonuses are fine. Rigs changed the way the game works, they didn't compensate for that when they did the new Apoc, and it's obivous they didn't. So they can change the rigs, or change the Apoc. Change a series of modules (most of which need it, but that's not what this thread is about) or change ONE ship. It's overpowered, and most people see it, whether through rigs or not, it need a nerf, simple as that. ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:21:00 - [44] Originally by: Jade190 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No, the range rigs need to stack. The apoc bonuses are fine. Rigs changed the way the game works, they didn't compensate for that when they did the new Apoc, and it's obivous they didn't. So they can change the rigs, or change the Apoc. Change a series of modules (most of which need it, but that's not what this thread is about) or change ONE ship. It's overpowered, and most people see it, whether through rigs or not, it need a nerf, simple as that. Thatll take a year or two. Its common knowlege that polycarbons are overpowered compared to nano IIs if you think about how ODIIs and axu thrusters compare to eachother. Has it been fixed? Nope. And this might take a while too. But good news it, the stacking on those range rigs will be fixed when nano poly****hottry will be fixed. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Sotha Sila	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:23:00 - [45] 2 words to say to the "smell of overpowered" SKILL INTENSIVE does anything else really need to be said? Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
Jade190	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:24:00 - [46] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Thatll take a year or two. Its common knowlege that polycarbons are overpowered compared to nano IIs if you think about how ODIIs and axu thrusters compare to eachother. Has it been fixed? Nope. And this might take a while too. But good news it, the stacking on those range rigs will be fixed when nano poly****hottry will be fixed. Tbh, rigs were a mistake, so were scripts, but that's dead and buried now, we have them. There's nothing wrong with nanos except speed implants mixed with the ship mods/rigs. Once again, NOT THE PLACE TO DISCUSS IT. Start a new thread if you want to preach about nanoships. ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid.
Jade190	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Sotha Sila 2 words to say to the "smell of overpowered" SKILL INTENSIVE does anything else really need to be said? Same amount of skills needed to fly any other armor tanked, turret using ship. Just for notes ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:29:00 - [48] Originally by: Jade190 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Thatll take a year or two. Its common knowlege that polycarbons are overpowered compared to nano IIs if you think about how ODIIs and axu thrusters compare to eachother. Has it been fixed? Nope. And this might take a while too. But good news it, the stacking on those range rigs will be fixed when nano poly****hottry will be fixed. Tbh, rigs were a mistake, so were scripts, but that's dead and buried now, we have them. There's nothing wrong with nanos except speed implants mixed with the ship mods/rigs. Once again, NOT THE PLACE TO DISCUSS IT. Start a new thread if you want to preach about nanoships. But I like to AOE-preach. Thats my thing. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Sotha Sila	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:32:00 - [49] what about capacitor then out of curiosity? I havnt tested either a pulse apoc or a tacyon apoc setup but i imagine that skills would have to be rather high to run it consitently, especially on the tac setup, since we no longer get the bonus to cap on the apoc and your running optimal rigs rather than cap rigs. Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:33:00 - [50] Originally by: Sotha Sila what about capacitor then out of curiosity? I havnt tested either a pulse apoc or a tacyon apoc setup but i imagine that skills would have to be rather high to run it consitently, especially on the tac setup, since we no longer get the bonus to cap on the apoc and your running optimal rigs rather than cap rigs. The pulse apoc runs great. I havent tested tach apoc. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Jordan Musgrat	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:37:00 - [51] The ship is not overpowered in anyway. You setup a gang of 5 apocs and 5 Oneiroses, and I'll break them with 10 vagabonds any day. Now it is possible that someone with the discipline of Burn Eden could make a gang of 200km sniping Apocs be worth a flip ingame, but then if you have that level of goodness you can make a lot of things work. When something has no counter, it is overpowered. This on the other hand, has so many counters it's insane. Hell let's pretend that your 200km Apocs and oneiroses will be able to keep a gang pinned down, I'll bring a gang of ravens and basilisks and kick the tar out of you. Someone said it but obviously it bears repeating, stop your whinage. Go play eve, and the first time you get omgwtfpwned by this theoretical setup, mail me so I can laugh. ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Msobe	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:38:00 - [52] OK, I gotta be snotty now. How is it that people who can't read somehow manage to write? The apoc had its capacitor increased to what it was with BS 5 before. It didn't lose capacitor when it lost the bonus. And uggg, people saying the problem is the ship - find a fit, any fit, that doesn't exploit bugged rigs, but still yields an overpowered ship. Since, as you say, the ship is overpowered, you should have no problem proving that without resorting to rigs that do not work as their description states. If you can't make the ship become something ridiculous without using the rigs, you gotta admit that's where the problem lies.
Jade190	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:38:00 - [53] Originally by: Sotha Sila what about capacitor then out of curiosity? I havnt tested either a pulse apoc or a tacyon apoc setup but i imagine that skills would have to be rather high to run it consitently, especially on the tac setup, since we no longer get the bonus to cap on the apoc and your running optimal rigs rather than cap rigs. Tbh, the lasers needed to have their cap use reduced, not a damage increase through tanking nerfs. That was another mistake on CCP's part. ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid.
Jade190	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:39:00 - [54] Originally by: Darth Pheonix The new Apoc is actually more broken as a sniper ship. Try this setup in eft: 2x Tracking Enhancer II 3x Heat Sink II 2x Beta Reactor Control: Reaction Control I 4x Sensor Booster II [2 Range Scripts, 1 Scan Res Script] 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Gets 401 dps (best dps by a HUGE margin), and has about the same range as the rokh. NO RIGS! ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid.
Msobe	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:44:00 - [55] Edited by: Msobe on 14/03/2008 01:44:21 Uhh, yeah, but thats a set up without megapulse lasers - which is the complaint people have with the new apoc. See the title of this thread. If you put tachyons on a sniper ship . . . .well, what exactly is the problem?
Jade190	Posted - 2008.03.14 01:46:00 - [56] Originally by: Msobe Edited by: Msobe on 14/03/2008 01:44:21 Uhh, yeah, but thats a set up without megapulse lasers - which is the complaint people have with the new apoc. See the title of this thread. If you put tachyons on a sniper ship . . . .well, what exactly is the problem? Rigs are stupid, plain and simple. NERF THEM ALL! ------ Fighting stupidity since before you were stupid.
Lalita Prestoc	Posted - 2008.03.14 02:20:00 - [57] Edited by: Lalita Prestoc on 14/03/2008 02:21:05 Originally by: Msobe Edited by: Msobe on 14/03/2008 01:44:21 Uhh, yeah, but thats a set up without megapulse lasers - which is the complaint people have with the new apoc. See the title of this thread. If you put tachyons on a sniper ship . . . .well, what exactly is the problem? Noooooo people are complaining about both although this topic is focusing on the the megapulse with bugged rigs (wasn't fixed in patch wtf?) setup which is a specialized setup so won't become common but is still amazingly effective with its combination of tracking/dps/range. The Maelstrom (or tempest for cheap skates), Mega and Rokh all offer something different without outclassing the others. The Apoc now comes in and can be fit to outclass either the Mega or Maelstrom/Tempest in practically every way. Only the Rokh can offer anything "more" than the Apoc through its range/tankability. I was one of the people calling for the kind of change Goum posted with the boosting coming in being able to fit Tachs+MWD without fitting modules, increasing its performance through freeing 2 slots and then have a free bonus to decide what to do with...
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.03.14 02:40:00 - [58] Originally by: arbalesttom Yes please, nerf the apoc, its a overpowered ship. Take some of your own medicine and stop whining caldari fanboi.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.03.14 02:56:00 - [59] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/03/2008 03:00:21 Originally by: Jordan Musgrat The ship is not overpowered in anyway. You setup a gang of 5 apocs and 5 Oneiroses, and I'll break them with 10 vagabonds any day. Now it is possible that someone with the discipline of Burn Eden could make a gang of 200km sniping Apocs be worth a flip ingame, but then if you have that level of goodness you can make a lot of things work. When something has no counter, it is overpowered. This on the other hand, has so many counters it's insane. Hell let's pretend that your 200km Apocs and oneiroses will be able to keep a gang pinned down, I'll bring a gang of ravens and basilisks and kick the tar out of you. Someone said it but obviously it bears repeating, stop your whinage. Go play eve, and the first time you get omgwtfpwned by this theoretical setup, mail me so I can laugh. Actually, 5 Onys + 5 Pulse Apocs will WTFBBQPWN 5 Vagabonds... because the Onys will ensure that your HACs are tracked. Also, don't expect to be breaking 5 logistics ships with a few HACs. Don't be stupid. -Liang Ed: I'm almost content to say that 5 Onys vs 5 Pulse Apocs will take a (within reason) arbitrarily large number of Vagabonds. Ed Ed: Hell, and that's neglecting the tracking disruptors that will single handedly 100% remove the DPS from a Vaga... hope you have 3x ambit rigs fit to every Minnie ship you own. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.03.14 03:49:00 - [60] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 14/03/2008 03:50:43 Wait 5 hacs don't pwn 5 bs + 5 logistic? I am stunned. The end is coming. Edit: And the apoc has nothing to with tds. Can't you leave that out of at least one thread?
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.03.14 03:59:00 - [61] Originally by: Wu Jiun Edited by: Wu Jiun on 14/03/2008 03:50:43 Wait 5 hacs don't pwn 5 bs + 5 logistic? I am stunned. The end is coming. Edit: And the apoc has nothing to with tds. Can't you leave that out of at least one thread? I'd be supremely ****ed if 5 Vagas beat 5 Apocs and 5 logistics... I was just pointing out the pure idiocy of the comment. Honestly, I wouldn't have brought it up if he hadn't said "Vagabond", and isn't relevant to the conversation at all barring it being yet another fragility of his suggested pwnage. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.03.14 04:26:00 - [62] Also, I just want to clear up that there are only a few things that I remember being upset about in this patch: - Tracking disruptors affect falloff and have no counter. No, Ambit rigs are not a counter.[ Please let us leave this out of this thread though... there have been millions of threads on this, and there will be millions more. Because it is broken. ] - Optimal range rigs are bugged allowing for obscene fits for optimal based setups (rails, pulses, beams, and arties to a much lesser extent). - The Zealot did not receive a PG & CPU boost with its 5th turret - The Muninn is now hands down the worst HAC in the game Things I am exceedingly happy about: - The Zealot got a 5th turret \o/ - The Eagle got a 5th turret \o/ - The Apoc has a use \o/ Those are the things I can remember. I'm somewhat ambivalent to the EM boost... it changes my fits up somewhat (EM is now tanked far harder than it ever was before).. but meh. Just different really. The only thing out of this post that I'm going to bother responding to though: The only thing that's broken is the optimal range bug. With it, the Apoc is overpowered. Now, whether optimal range rigs should be fixed is another question entirely... damage rigs have long needed a boost precisely because they stack with mods. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.03.14 05:02:00 - [63] The zealot didnt need a PG/CPU increase... Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.03.14 05:15:00 - [64] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/03/2008 05:15:31 Originally by: Goumindong The zealot didnt need a PG/CPU increase... Not sure I can agree with that.. it essentially forces a nano or all faction tank fit. Well, that or continue to fit 4 HP II's on it. -Liang Ed: DAMNIT! I didn't want to respond to things not on my list of things to respond to. So, how about unstacking all rigs from modules? -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Deschenus Maximus	Posted - 2008.03.14 05:32:00 - [65] The Apoc IS undoubtedly the best sniper in game now... so what? The Vaga is by far the best speed HAC, the Eagle is by far the best sniper HAC... God forbid Amarr get to be best at something for once, amirite? As for Goumindong's idea... I wouldn't mind it, but it would be far, FAR more overpowered than the current incarnation of the 'poc. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Lalita Prestoc	Posted - 2008.03.14 05:40:00 - [66] Edited by: Lalita Prestoc on 14/03/2008 05:41:33 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus The Apoc IS undoubtedly the best sniper in game now... so what? The Vaga is by far the best speed HAC, the Eagle is by far the best sniper HAC... God forbid Amarr get to be best at something for once, amirite? As for Goumindong's idea... I wouldn't mind it, but it would be far, FAR more overpowered than the current incarnation of the 'poc. 1. The Vaga is the quickest close range hac, doesn't make it the best unless all you value is speed and you don't take into account damage/range/tank/misc mids (such as ew). 2. No it wouldn't be more overpowered, as it wouldn't be the 2nd longest sniper with the best tracking and clearly highest damage. Theres a difference between "best" and "completely outclasses other options in all major catagories of the role". Using bad balancing in one area is hardely a good excuse to create other inbalances.
Deschenus Maximus	Posted - 2008.03.14 06:02:00 - [67] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc 1. The Vaga is the quickest close range hac, doesn't make it the best unless all you value is speed and you don't take into account damage/range/tank/misc mids (such as ew). Vaga IS overall best as a speed HAC. It has best top speed, great agility, decent damage, decent passive tank, range that is enough to stay out of web range (unless TDed), and misc mids really don't mean ** in this day and age (might change if people realise how good a TD is now). Originally by:** Lalita Prestoc 2. No it wouldn't be more overpowered, as it wouldn't be the 2nd longest sniper with the best tracking and clearly highest damage. Erm... it would be the second-highest DPS sniper (after the Abaddon... but would be WAY more sustainable), with the best tracking, while still easily hitting the 150km optimal mark, which is the benchmark for all snipers. On top of that, it now have 2 extra free lows you could use for more damage, more range, or more tank. Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Theres a difference between "best" and "completely outclasses other options in all major catagories of the role". Oh come now... why am I getting flashbacks from pre-Revelation Rohk threads? "No point flying anything else than a Rohk now! Time to train Caldari BS! Thanks CCP!!!" Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Using bad balancing in one area is hardely a good excuse to create other inbalances. Fair enough argument I guess, but if they nerf the Apoc, they damn well better nerf the Vaga, nerf the Eagle, nerf... Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.03.14 06:09:00 - [68] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc 2. No it wouldn't be more overpowered, as it wouldn't be the 2nd longest sniper with the best tracking and clearly highest damage. Theres a difference between "best" and "completely outclasses other options in all major catagories of the role". Using bad balancing in one area is hardely a good excuse to create other inbalances. Well the apoc still is not the sniper with the longest range and not the one with the highest alpha either. So it does not completely outclass any other sniper in the game. That being said it is a very, very powerful ship now. But still useless at close ranges. Even the rokh is a better close range boat so i'd say that has to be taken into account too. If you have a ship that can only do one thing while others can deliver in several directions (like mega for example) then maybe it should just outshine others in that area? However as the devs have said they will monitor the impact of changes especially in regards to say the rokh. So they are aware of possible imbalances. But really after two days with the apoc on tq i think its a bit early to cry nerf. As for goumindongs propsal maybe it would have been a better way to go about it or at least easier to balance. But really its not hot to have 3 pure laser boats to start with for a lot of people. And having them all have either a damage bonus or a rof bonus and that basically being the key difference next to if they can fit tachs with 0 ,1 or 2 fitting mods - that would still be bad balancing in my (humble) opinion.
zurich93	Posted - 2008.03.14 06:11:00 - [69] When ever someone says "well EFT..." the thread should be locked, this isnt EFT online so only comment on the ships if you can actually fly them or have very good knowlege of them for god sake. Nope starts here actually :O -----Sig starts here------- <3 Kaemonn eep eep beep heep keep womble... YOU DO NOT POSESS THE POWER TO DISGUINISH MY SIG FROM MY POST MWHAHAHA
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.03.14 06:22:00 - [70] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus The Apoc IS undoubtedly the best sniper in game now... so what? The Vaga is by far the best speed HAC, the Eagle is by far the best sniper HAC... God forbid Amarr get to be best at something for once, amirite? As for Goumindong's idea... I wouldn't mind it, but it would be far, FAR more overpowered than the current incarnation of the 'poc. Which one? The TD ranged bonused one, or the 5/6 siege launcher with the EM damage bonus one? Or the 7 gun, damage bonus, easy fitting one? The 7 gun, damage bonus, easy fitting would not be more overpowered than the current incarnation of the POC, it wouldnt be anywhere near overpowered. The torp one might be with the recent changes with the new torp changes, and the TD range bonused one probably wouldn't be at all if you limited meds properly. E.G. 7 gun, + dmg bonus =437 dmg at 162/168km[not sure which]. More DPS than the tempest/maelstrom with significantly less alpha, but slightly more optimal with lower falloff. Less range than the rokh and megathron. Compared to the current 230km 400dps monster, i cant see it being better. Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/03/2008 05:15:31 Originally by: Goumindong The zealot didnt need a PG/CPU increase... Not sure I can agree with that.. it essentially forces a nano or all faction tank fit. Well, that or continue to fit 4 HP II's on it. -Liang Ed: DAMNIT! I didn't want to respond to things not on my list of things to respond to. So, how about unstacking all rigs from modules? It would break the game. Large tier turrets would pretty much become obsolete overnight. This would be a huge Minmatar boost with specific boosts to specific Amarr ships like the Abaddon.[yes please 20% more damage because the Maelstrom and Abaddon have powergrid coming out of their asses when fitting short range guns] You can still fit an 800mm or single mar on a Zealot. And you could never really tank it will. If you want to run a big tank, downgrade to FMP. Its a big drop, but you gain tonnes of fitting. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.03.14 06:37:00 - [71] Originally by: Goumindong The TD ranged bonused one +1! Apoc 6 highs, 6 launchers 6 mids 6 lows 375 m^3 drone bay, 125 m^3 bandwidth +10%/drone hp/damage / Amarr BS Level +10% TD range and effeciveness / Amarr BS Level -- Arbitrator/Curse/Pilgrim all also receive the 10% TD Range/Effectiveness boost, and unbonused TD's are simultaneously nerfed. I'd have been good with this :-) No point talking about it now though. :/ Quote: It would break the game. Large tier turrets would pretty much become obsolete overnight. This would be a huge Minmatar boost with specific boosts to specific Amarr ships like the Abaddon.[yes please 20% more damage because the Maelstrom and Abaddon have powergrid coming out of their asses when fitting short range guns] Hmmmm... and that may be a very excellent point. Meh, it seems like maybe the secondary damage bonuses could remain unstacked (optimal/falloff/tracking/etc). -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.03.14 06:58:00 - [72] 6 launchers + drone damage bonus +125 cubes = way too much especially for an ewar ship with 6 meds. It would be stupidly overpowered. Drop the damage bonus and its more reasonable, but its still really strong. Also, it wouldn't need a damage bonus, i don't really have a problem with strong ewar that isn't necessarily lodged onto ewar ships. Otherwise the high med slot "versitile" ships arent really versitile ECM i can understand being specialized, but damps and TD's need some changes so they can be more viable on non-bonused ships. This is another topic, but basically they got broken by the scripting changes in a way that isn't very straightforward and i don't really want to explain here.[Make a thread and ill explain it, incidentally it has to do with the reason that optimal rigs are bugged currently] As for making things unstacking. I could see falloff and tracking, but definitly not optimal. Optimal + long ranged turrets has turned long range turret balance on its head. The current Apoc is actually underpowered given those changes and the Rokh really overpowered. The Apoc because its so PG short even with the recent boost. For instance you can make a 200km Maelstrom, and a 360 dps Rokh with faction ammo at 230km[415 dps at 200km] Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Tyr Zewa Tax Collectors	Posted - 2008.03.14 09:53:00 - [73] One of the issues imo is small scale pvp that include bs. The range for these battles can go from 5km to 60km depending on situations, and the new apoc just owns that field with a mega pulse setup. Giving a ship that can use Mega Pulse a range bonus was not the smartest move. This change also weakened the teampest alot, as a tach apoc easily outclasses it too now. But who cares i guess, FOTM was always how eve was played, and everyone who has 50+ mil sp will be fine as they can fly both ships with t2 weapons anyhow, and the rest will just do what i do, cross train. Not the worst option as minmatar cap ships are stupid too, so it's nice to get amarr caps in the long run too.
Wideen Eon Project Legion of Honor	Posted - 2008.03.14 10:03:00 - [74] It just scares people that the status quo has been tilted since everyone's so used to seeing amarr at the bottom of the scale so when they actually get a worthwhile and indeed needed boost for an otherwise useless ship, they get terrified. Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Trojanman190 Yultani Advanced Research and Reproduction	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:07:00 - [75] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Edited by: Lalita Prestoc on 14/03/2008 05:41:33 1. The Vaga is the quickest close range hac, doesn't make it the best unless all you value is speed and you don't take into account damage/range/tank/misc mids (such as ew). 2. No it wouldn't be more overpowered, as it wouldn't be the 2nd longest sniper with the best tracking and clearly highest damage. Theres a difference between "best" and "completely outclasses other options in all major catagories of the role". Using bad balancing in one area is hardely a good excuse to create other inbalances. The only way the vagabond is the best speed HAC in the game is if your definition of best speed HAC is 'runs away the best' The new EFT does a great job at showing the vagabond's orbit dps against battleship sig targets and makes it quite clear that unless you slow down to sub 400m/s you are hitting like a wet noodle. The ishtar on the other hand plops out over 500 dps with ogre IIs and small rails and can drop the drones and orbit at 40km while an interceptor with those wonderful 29km scramblers holds the baddy in place, speed tanking the whole time [I like the stilletto]. The only thing the vagabond truly excels at is picking its fights, most of which it can't win and most of which you could scout out with a gang mate or an alt anyways [I like the stilletto]. Everyone here is complaining about the new apoc's bonuses, I agree, that thing is freaking wicked. I fly minmatar battleships and let me tell you, that optimal is absolutely insane, but, it makes sense from a story perspective. They are frikkin lazers. Instant beams of cap made damage. I would expect them to be a pretty uber long range weapons. I actually think for once that this ship is fully in character with the race it is apart of. Also, the ship is exciting now! It can do stuff that other ships can't, smoke people with pulse from 100km away, that's sweet! No matter how overpowered you think this ship is, maybe this ship is not the problem, other battleships are. Let's go over the ship's people commonly fly in this game and why they are commonly flown. Recons. They do cool stuff! Minmatar - webbing from 40km is something unique that nothing else can do! Amarr - neuting from 40km is something unique that nothing else can do! Gallente - well, damps used to be cool. Not cool anymore sadly. Caldari - You can jamm fleets from 200km, thats something unique that nothing else can do! Not to mention some can warp while cloaked! Hacs. Some of them do cool stuff! Vagabond - 5% bonus to speed makes a vagabond a super interceptor! thats something unique that no other hac can do! Ishtar - Same drone bay and bonuses as a battleship but it can nano! thats something unique no other hac can do! Interceptors. Cheap, fast, and some can point from 29km and run the point and mwd forever! thats something cool that nothing else can do! The point I'm trying to make with the above is that people fly these ships because they are so unique and FUN to use. Damage bonuses and rof bonuses and cap bonuses and tracking bonuses are BORING. Making ships litterally behave differently from all other ships is the way to go. I'm pleased to see the battleships start moving in this direction and I hope ccp does not make the mistake of nerfing the new apoc and instead boosting other ships to more fit their race as well fit a completely unique and FUN TO PLAY role. For example, minmatar snipers get (have) crappy range but drop the rof on artillery and increase the damage to get the alpha back. All of a sudden the race gets it's personality back while still being balanced. Stuff like that. So in closing, yes the new apoc is quite powerful but let's stop whining about that and make it less overpowered by making other battleshiships kick @$$!
Malxort Paradox Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:20:00 - [76] [Apocalypse 2, New Setup 1] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer I Tracking Enhancer I Capacitor Flux Coil II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Energy Locus Coordinator I Energy Locus Coordinator I Energy Discharge Elutriation I Erm, I'm hitting something like 580 from 106. I think 15k armor is enough buffer tank to run away and warp out. ---------------------------------- Pain is Temporary, Pride is Forever
Indigo Johnson Dojo Sushi	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:27:00 - [77] Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 14/03/2008 12:28:40 Originally by: Wideen It just scares people that the status quo has been tilted since everyone's so used to seeing amarr at the bottom of the scale so when they actually get a worthwhile and indeed needed boost for an otherwise useless ship, they get terrified. Not at all. The ship is now a great sniper with tach's sure, but you obviously have to sacrifice 2 lows and all hopes of a tank to fit that kinda setup...but then thats expected because other ships with the same calibre guns (ok, tachyons are kinda in a league of their own but) like artie, rails, etc. What my initial point was trying to make is that megapulse + this new ship feels too good. Why? Read the following. In the dev blog released on the 06.2007, Balancing changes for revelations two, CCP Fendahl says the following Originally by: CCP Fendahl The tracking on Pulse Lasers has been increased by 25% across the board, which enables the Pulse Laser to better compete against blasters and auto-cannons at close range. Below are plots of the damage per second, as a function of range, of Battleship class close range weapons fitted on ships with typical bonuses, tracking a battleship moving at 150m/s. The graphs in this blog are for the old Apoc but you can see, according to CCP Fendahl, it does the highest damage past 15-20km for its tier of guns so compared. Now in the dev blog realeased on 02.2008, Planned ship balancing changes, the apoc gets the following changes, to quote CCP Fendahl from this blog Originally by: CCP Fendahl Apocalypse: Fitting: 505tf, 20500mw (+5tf, +1000mw) Fitting: 505tf, 20500mw (+5tf, +1000mw) Capacitor capacity: 7500en (+25%) Bonuses: 10% reduction in large energy turret capacitor usage per Amarr Battleship level (no change) 7.5% bonus to large energy turret optimal range per Amarr Battleship level (replaces the 5% capacitor capacity bonus) With the above changes the Apocalypse becomes a very good option for long range sniping. The main reason that the optimal range bonus doesn't share the Rokh's 10% per level is that the optimal range bonus benefits both beam lasers as well as pulse lasers, whereas the hybrid optimal range bonus of the Rokh only really benefits railguns. Another concern is that the Rokh, a more expensive tier 3 battleship, should retain its range advantage over other battleships. With a balanced setup the Apocalypse can obtain an optimal range of over 190km, which fits within its targeting range of 205km when using two tech 2 sensor boosters. The Apocalypse uses significantly less energy to fire its turrets compared to the other Amarr battleships and even outperforms the hybrid turret snipers in terms of sustainability due to the larger capacitor capacity. So we see, CCP Fendahl did have it in mind that megapulse setups could and possible would be too good by giving the ship an optimal bonus. The graphs from the first linked blog still stand however the range indicated would obviously increase due to the Apocs new bonuses. So has he [CCP Fendahl with the Apoc changes] gone too far, is it too good as it stands at the moment given that we know megapulse have, in effect, been boostered twice. Once by getting a 25% tracking increase and second giving a ship a range bonus that effects megapulse lasers which it can easilly fit. Should the bonus be 5% per level or only applicable to tachs? In essence. New Apoc + Mega pulse = too good?
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:01:00 - [78] This has got to be the most stupid thread I have seen in my life. All this whinage over something in a gimmik setup that has not got a single proven kill in eve pvp to this date. Above 100km - anyone who thinks tracking is key above everything else needs real life pvp experience. In EFT, a Rokh with Blasters can have a theoretical 100km+ Blaster range with faction ammo, with onerious's boosting it. Strange why you dont see that in real life. 2 gangs of 30 pilots fight each other. Gang of 10 apocs with 20 onerious tracking links, loses to gang of 30 sniper apocs. This thread is of a quality that would make even jojo posts a better read. -- Billion Isk Mission
Indigo Johnson Dojo Sushi	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:27:00 - [79] Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 14/03/2008 13:34:13 Originally by: Lord WarATron This has got to be the most stupid thread I have seen in my life. All this whinage over something in a gimmik setup that has not got a single proven kill in eve pvp to this date. Above 100km - anyone who thinks tracking is key above everything else needs real life pvp experience. In EFT, a Rokh with Blasters can have a theoretical 100km+ Blaster range with faction ammo, with onerious's boosting it. Strange why you dont see that in real life. 2 gangs of 30 pilots fight each other. Gang of 10 apocs with 20 onerious tracking links, loses to gang of 30 sniper apocs. Your opinion is your opinion...if you didn't notice there was a patch recently where the Apoc was changed. One reason why you didn't see any setups before was because, well, the ship was different - though Im not saying its something we will see all over the place suddenly, but who knows. EFT is great sure, but CCP use their equivalent and use it to balance their ships (see the blog so linked), as long as it is referenced and acknowledged, it isn't a problem. Do you put your hand in water to tell that its hot enough or do you use theory to calculate when it will be hot enough given an energy input, accumulation and heat loss - bad example maybe but i think it stretches. 2 gangs of 30 pilots, etc questions are not really relevant to this thread because game design and balance accoding to the makers of this game does not occur that way, it is on an individual ship by ship basis. My evidence for this: blog experience. Look at every balancing blog there has been and you will never see a phrase like "we want to reduce/increase factor x because a "<insert some magic gang number>" module y becomes the ****zle". Its done a ship by ship basis. Certainly some ships have a very big effect on the gang as a whole such as logistics, commond ships, capitals and supercapitals but CCP has shown their too that it releases ships and tweaks them according to player use (see changes to titans, motherships, carriers and planned changes to command ship gang bonuses). If the quality of this thread disturbs you, holds no point and is as vapid as hot air then i can only say...don't read/post /shrug.
Rastigan Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:33:00 - [80] Originally by: Lord WarATron In EFT, a Rokh with Blasters can have a theoretical 100km+ Blaster range with faction ammo, with onerious's boosting it. Strange why you dont see that in real life. No you cant, have you even used a tracking link ? Mr EFT warrior, did you even notice that tracking computers dont have a stacking penalty with tracking links, but in the game THEY do ? Please stop talking about this Blaster Rokh, nobody cares...
Msobe Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:52:00 - [81] Indigo - Like you point out, the changes are new, and of course any theoretical set ups haven't been seen yet. Then you reason that we aren't seeing 100km blaster rokhs because they'd be outclassed by mp2 apocs . . . which is true, but only since this week. The blaster set up has been possible, and you still don't see it. Because neither one is a good way to set up your ship - its a good way to play with EFT, or a good way to get blown up if you actually try flying the thing. The new apoc (that just happened) can't possibly be the reason people aren't flying the rokh that way. The devs obviously did consider the apoc would fly with pulse lasers. That's why the bonus is 7.5% instead of 10% like other range bonuses. Its not as if they intended the bonus to apply only to long range systems - amarr have both beam and pulse - compare to caldari, who specialize in just rails. Giving amarr a bonus to just beams would be a bit strange.
Riaz Qaadir Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:53:00 - [82] Originally by: Lord WarATron This has got to be the most stupid thread I have seen in my life. All this whinage over something in a gimmik setup that has not got a single proven kill in eve pvp to this date. Above 100km - anyone who thinks tracking is key above everything else needs real life pvp experience. In EFT, a Rokh with Blasters can have a theoretical 100km+ Blaster range with faction ammo, with onerious's boosting it. Strange why you dont see that in real life. 2 gangs of 30 pilots fight each other. Gang of 10 apocs with 20 onerious tracking links, loses to gang of 30 sniper apocs. This thread is of a quality that would make even jojo posts a better read. For someone who says don't eft warrior and play the game your bloody stupid at it and completely twist what people say. No a Rokh can't, and there a big difference between getting boosted by logistics to 100km and a ship that can get over 100km itself and to 200km with help. WTF do you have 20 logistics to help 10 ships? You can boost 5 130km optimal megapulse Apocs with 2 logistics. Who said tracking is key above everything else? You even been reading what people say or just reading what you want? The potential is there, its certainly more realistic to use than the old "everyone will use rokhs and stay 200km+ vs other snipers" which is practically impossible even if you could get everyone in a Rokh. I don't see it happening unless people have alts for logistics, people are killmail *****s.
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:23:00 - [83] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/03/2008 14:24:56 Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Who said tracking is key above everything else? You even been reading what people say or just reading what you want? Then why the heck would a group of sniper pilots want drop half their gang to tracking link booster ships to use megapulse at Tachyon ranges? I have spoken to a number of Amarr pilots who acutually pvp and I cannot find a single one that would find acceptable to have people in their gang drop down combat pvp ships and change to to tracking link onerious's and megapulse for sniping. To the Goon who said that 100km+ blaster rokhs are impossible, its quite possible. Its always been possible. Of course, unrelistic setups using officer mods and t2 rigs are hard to come by, but this thread is about unrealistic setups so it is quite fitting to prove the point, which is theory is not Reality. Riaz, arent you the guy who admited in another thread that you cannot even use t2 lasers? Dont you know that the Sniper is a t2 gun profession? The only exception is sniping in faction guns with faction ammo in a Rokh, and I dont know a single pilot other than myself that has pulled that off other than myself. So Why dont you tell us what you think Sniping is, so that we can understand what you point is? -- Billion Isk Mission
Ogul ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:29:00 - [84] Originally by: Liang Nuren Apoc 6 highs, 6 launchers 6 mids 6 lows 375 m^3 drone bay, 125 m^3 bandwidth +10%/drone hp/damage / Amarr BS Level +10% TD range and effeciveness / Amarr BS Level The DPS might not be over the top, but the other things it could possibly do definitely are. I know that because I would start skilling Amarr BS instantly just to get my dirty hands on that beast. (Even with 125 m^3 drone bay and the drone bonus gone.) --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:35:00 - [85] Originally by: Ogul The DPS might not be over the top, but the other things it could possibly do definitely are. I know that because I would start skilling Amarr BS instantly just to get my dirty hands on that beast. (Even with 125 m^3 drone bay and the drone bonus gone.) Not saying this would not be overpowered. But are you actually suggesting that any change to the apoc that makes you consider getting one is op? Probably not but i do have the feeling this is what many people use as measure when they cry nerf the apoc now - hence my remark.
Dave PSI Haendlergilde	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:37:00 - [86] I really can't see a problem here. I have 2 Tachyon II & 2 Mega Pulse II BPO's, so plz start train Amarr and buy my Lasers T R U S T shop: http://www.evetrust.com // Haendlergilde [HAE]
Ogul ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:40:00 - [87] Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: Ogul The DPS might not be over the top, but the other things it could possibly do definitely are. I know that because I would start skilling Amarr BS instantly just to get my dirty hands on that beast. (Even with 125 m^3 drone bay and the drone bonus gone.) Not saying this would not be overpowered. But are you actually suggesting that any change to the apoc that makes you consider getting one is op? Probably not but i do have the feeling this is what many people use as measure when they cry nerf the apoc now - hence my remark. My point was that I can't fly Amarr battleships at all. But since I do have missile skills this thing looks like an armor tanking, ewar and heavy drone spewing Raven to me. If it isn't gimped by low CPU the number of things you could do with that ship would simply be amazing. Probably too amazing. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Indigo Johnson Dojo Sushi	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:02:00 - [88] Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 14/03/2008 15:04:32 Originally by: Lord WarATron So Why dont you tell us what you think Sniping is, so that we can understand what you point is? bite..hmm yummy Sniping is setting up a ship that can hit in excess of 150km with or without t2 (be usually with) and usually refers to battleship setups for fleet scale combat - yes yes, you can snipe in ships other than battleships. There are a number advantages to having so-so 200dps damage at range over high damage 700+dps at close range but thats not really the discussion. This thread is not meant to be about sniping just like threads about blasters, or autocannons or (now with the their changes) torps are not about sniping. Its about the effectiveness of mega pulse lasers on a ship that has an optimal bonus, not the effectiveness of tachyons on a ship with an optimal bonus. People who are mentioning tachyons in a thread with the title "New Apoc + Mega pulse = too good" have reading problems <insert smile 1/2 joing face> because mega pulse lasers (before "boost patch) were not the amarr snipers choice of weapon, tachyons were/are. Yes, comparisons to setups in EFT with logistics aid are excessive but this was admitted on page 1. That doesn't rule them out from existing (i mean who nowadays only has 1 account ) but time will tell, like so much in the game, if it does or does not catch on. Originally by: Msobe Indigo - Like you point out, the changes are new, and of course any theoretical set ups haven't been seen yet. Then you reason that we aren't seeing 100km blaster rokhs because they'd be outclassed by mp2 apocs . . . which is true, but only since this week. The blaster set up has been possible, and you still don't see it. Because neither one is a good way to set up your ship - its a good way to play with EFT, or a good way to get blown up if you actually try flying the thing. The new apoc (that just happened) can't possibly be the reason people aren't flying the rokh that way. The devs obviously did consider the apoc would fly with pulse lasers. That's why the bonus is 7.5% instead of 10% like other range bonuses. Its not as if they intended the bonus to apply only to long range systems - amarr have both beam and pulse - compare to caldari, who specialize in just rails. Giving amarr a bonus to just beams would be a bit strange. Pretty much agree with that. My initial setup in the OP is quite poor, you would never fit a ship w/o a MWD for instance or fly it solo but with some tweaks it isn't too far from what you could put in a small gang. As said, the devs mention that its not a 10% bonus because of the point mentioning megapulse laser range in the recent dev blog. The reason i started this post was really to ask whether Apoc + MP II is possibly too good, even with the changes made, or if people think is good enough say why, instead of the usual "lol, more cheese with your whine?" If i hated the changes i could say: Amarr has had its pulse lasers buffed, damage from its main weapons (lasers) buffed because ships overall HP to EM has been reduced slightly, rawr rawr rawr but im not saying this. Just as im not saying megapulse + apoc + logistic ship will be the daddy of fleet combat over tradiational sniping setups or sniping in general...but with so many people making the mistake of thinking i am comparng it to sniping it makes me think there is confusion and possibly the apocs range is too great with a mega pulse. The Amarr needed (as the another dev blog put it) some omph and they have it, could it be with all the recent Amarr changes, that one part of the Armarr tweaks was slliiightttly over the top? Im starting to think, perhaps yes /shrug.
Lalita Prestoc Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:09:00 - [89] I think it could be quite funny to use a Megapulse apoc as sort of between a sniper HAC and tradition sniper BS. 8x megapulse with AN radio gives 305 DPS at 142 km optimal with 0.5272 tracking (400 sig). Only the eagle can match that range, while have twice the tracking (after taking signature into account) but has <100 DPS at that time. Zealot and Muninn can't even get to that range using t2 sniper ammo nevermind faction. I mean Lord W has basically said tracking doesn't matter (tell that to my arties lol) so wouldn't be that unrealistic to use it effectively and have full insurance you don't get with t2 hacs. Could be great for shooting at nano cruisers and dictors (or hac snipers)
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:45:00 - [90] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/03/2008 16:47:18 Originally by: Lalita Prestoc 8x megapulse with AN radio gives 305 DPS at 142 km optimal with 0.5272 tracking (400 sig). Only the eagle can match that range, while have twice the tracking (after taking signature into account) but has <100 DPS at that time. Zealot and Muninn can't even get to that range using t2 sniper ammo nevermind faction. I mean Lord W has basically said tracking doesn't matter (tell that to my arties lol) so wouldn't be that unrealistic to use it effectively and have full insurance you don't get with t2 hacs. Could be great for shooting at nano cruisers and dictors (or hac snipers) Sigh. Ok Ill bite. Since I dont know what your apoc setup is, I will make a guess at it. H: 8 x Mega pulse II with Navy Radio L M: 100mn MWD, 3 x Sensor Booster II L: 3 x Heatsink II, 4 x Tracking Enhancer II R: 3 x Locus rigs This gives 305 DPS, optimal of 148+10. I assume this to be a fair representation of you Apoc. Also it has a tracking of 0.05414 and not 0.5272 (which is better tracking than Frig lasers, so I assume you made a error!) Cookie Cutter Zealot setup. H: 5 x Heavy Beam II M: 100mn Mwd II, 2 x Sensor Booster II L: 3 x heatsink II, 3 x Tracking Enhancers II, 1 x RCU II R: 2 x Locus Fairly normal sniper setups have MWD in them so I put a MWD in both. Now Your Pulse Apoc has 0.05414 tracking with 400 Weapon Sig. It has 148km optimal Beam Zealot has 151km, 125 weapon sig with aurora L. However, comparing t2 ammo with t1 faction is not fair, so let us also use Amarr Navy Radio, since that is what you used. The Beam Zealot does 134km optimal. Also note that the Beam zealot has only 5 tracking mods/rigs vs the Apocs 7. Both ships have simaler range. Now lets do the tracking maths shall we? Eve Tracking Calculator - OFFICAL First - these are stats and anyone can waffle stats to prove their point. Next, more turrets makes up for hit chance. Next, something sitting still at optimal will pretty much get hit by all shots. Thats not what we are going to test. Maintaining Transversal at all ranges is not possible so I am going to pick up from what range onwards a givin ship has a decent chance of hitting. Ok, Lets start with a Crow with 2000 transversal, which is fairly normal. It has 167 sig. According to the tracking calculator, the Zealot has a 80% chance of hiting it from 48km onwards. The Apoc cannot reach 80% ever even at 148km. Next, a Vagabond. It has 747.5 sig with MWD on. If one assumes a 1000 transversal, the Zelot has 100% chance of hitting from 30km onwards (80% hit chance from 5km onwards). The Apoc never reaches 100% chance of hitting even at 148 km range. Now, a t2 Sniper attacking from standard 160km Range. Both ships miss 100% of their shots. Finally, let us pick up a dictor. A Sabre has 450 sig with MWD on. Let us assume it has 1500 transversal. It takes the apoc a massive 148km range to hit it at 90% Chance. The Zealot has a 90% chance from 20km onwards. REALITY CHECK: The above figures are theory craft and since this is a theory craft thread, it seems fitting. Real pvp will usually have support pilots closer and at higher transversals that those shown above, as most competent fleet commanders will have their support ships on your battleships in less than a minute or so, sometimes just as the battle starts. Therefore due to real pvp of today, this sniper apoc is rather obsolete as mid range pvp is not something that most engagements happen at. And a Sniper Abaddon can do 100km+ in the same setup as a apoc, so its a better pulse ship for those ranges. -- Billion Isk Mission
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:11:00 - [91] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 14/03/2008 17:16:12 Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 14/03/2008 17:14:37 With the changes the apocalypse has become a very valid ship. I know some people feel bad about that. They wished the Amarr to have all the crappy ships but things change. I see too much hatred and jealousy lately. It is clear that all this time whoever would stick to Amarr only ships would be called a "true roleplayer" since the amarr ships had so many flaws that every other guy would not chose them. And all these people were happy that even in their noobism felt that there were some ships in the game so penalised that even them noobs could take them out. But things have changed. The Amarr have gota boost. Now theyir ships will be valid. Not excellent but valid. And i see so many people moan and scream for injustice. I for one am happy with the changes. Poor Amarrians needed a boost so badly all this time!They chose the hard way. They chose the penalized race with the penalized ships and showed much patience and percistence remaining in the same old vessels figth after fight with the odds against them.... I am sure that deeply within you you can see you do it all out of jealousy and fear because from now and on some of the amarrian ships you will have to deal with won't be the usual punching bags but will be able to fight you back.
Lalita Prestoc Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:16:00 - [92] Why would you assume I made an error when both optimal and tracking is a tiny bit more than what I said, say a 4th TE more. If we're saying 4th stacking mods are realistic you could of course use a 4th HS here. Am quite suprised at that Zealot setup to be honest, obviously its just the Muninn failing like normal so my own fault for not checking the Zealot. A Apoc doesn't need a 80% hit chance like the Zealot to do the same damage as a Zealot as it does double the DPS and Volley damage when it hits. CCPs guide isn't working for me at the minute so sticking them into NBs spreadsheet using the setups and variables you used: Vs Crow vs Sabre vs Vaga But like you say, its all theory thats only been done on SISI so far.
Syrenea Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:21:00 - [93] imho the apoc like this is valid still, your kicking out about 400-500 dps depending, but your easily caught. Its not something i would say omfg overpowered. The Apoc needed this. Its been a broken ship for a long time and its now quite a scary ship, seriously though tracking disruptors / dampeners, jammers, like any long range ship. Lasers are med ranged, only makes sense the apoc now make them a med-long ranged gun platform. But like the Triumvirate guy said, let just give it some change on the field before crying nerf from what you see on EFT....
SirDanceAlot Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:38:00 - [94] Edited by: SirDanceAlot on 14/03/2008 18:38:30 People should just stfu and play on TRANQUILITY.
Ensar'da Advanced Capital Ship Designs Hephaestus Rising	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:50:00 - [95] Personaly i love the range changes 41km optimal using mega ii's is very apealing and becomes a great sniper ship. One thing i did notice though why have ccp only changed the standard ship not the navy version which has the same stats as before the patch
Jasai Kameron Hakata Group Blade.	Posted - 2008.03.15 02:11:00 - [96] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Why would you assume I made an error when both optimal and tracking is a tiny bit more than what I said, say a 4th TE more. Originally by: Lalita Prestoc 8x megapulse with AN radio gives 305 DPS at 142 km optimal with 0.5272 tracking (400 sig). Originally by: Lord WarATron This gives 305 DPS, optimal of 148+10. I assume this to be a fair representation of you Apoc. Also it has a tracking of 0.05414 and not 0.5272 (which is better tracking than Frig lasers, so I assume you made a error!) One little zero shouldn't make that much difference and yet it does.
Msobe Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.03.16 14:42:00 - [97] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc A Apoc doesn't need a 80% hit chance like the Zealot to do the same damage as a Zealot as it does double the DPS and Volley damage when it hits. CCPs guide isn't working for me at the minute so sticking them into NBs spreadsheet using the setups and variables you used: Vs Crow vs Sabre vs Vaga EDIT: BUGGER, put 3 optimal rigs instead of 2 for the Zealot so knock a bit of range off in your head please ... But like you say, its all theory thats only been done on SISI so far. Looking at those charts, I'm really having trouble seeing what kinda complaint you've got. There we see the zealot oding the apoc on the smallest target. Once the targets become big enough for the apoc's guns, the apoc deals more damage. Well, the apoc has more guns. The apoc has bigger guns. They will miss more often on smaller, faster targets, but when they do hit, they deal more damage. That's all the chart is showing - when the apoc can hit, it outperforms the smaller ship. If it didn't, then that would be a problem.
Lance Fighter Safe Haven North Star Confederation	Posted - 2008.03.16 15:00:00 - [98] Edited by: Lance Fighter on 16/03/2008 15:01:08 Those graphs.... You cant use best navy ammo - you have to go with t2 ranged. That is not navy. And it does not get a 15% bonus. edit Unless you like having crap dps. I personally would go for the slightly less range. Ive noticed that 99.9% of people on these forums have a signature. If you are one of the 0.1% that doesnot have a sig, copy this into your sig, and display your defiance towards people with sigs.
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.16 16:12:00 - [99] Originally by: Msobe Originally by: Lalita Prestoc A Apoc doesn't need a 80% hit chance like the Zealot to do the same damage as a Zealot as it does double the DPS and Volley damage when it hits. CCPs guide isn't working for me at the minute so sticking them into NBs spreadsheet using the setups and variables you used: Vs Crow vs Sabre vs Vaga EDIT: BUGGER, put 3 optimal rigs instead of 2 for the Zealot so knock a bit of range off in your head please ... But like you say, its all theory thats only been done on SISI so far. Looking at those charts, I'm really having trouble seeing what kinda complaint you've got. There we see the zealot oding the apoc on the smallest target. Once the targets become big enough for the apoc's guns, the apoc deals more damage. Well, the apoc has more guns. The apoc has bigger guns. They will miss more often on smaller, faster targets, but when they do hit, they deal more damage. That's all the chart is showing - when the apoc can hit, it outperforms the smaller ship. If it didn't, then that would be a problem. On top of what you said, one thing the chart does not show is how many Vaga, Claw and Saber pilots hang about outside the effective range of the zealot. Is a sabre going to bubble you are 50km? Not really. Is a Vaga going to scramble you at 60km? Nope. That is why I dont like charts like those. They give people a broken look at pvp. I gave some real examples. E.G The crow orbiting at that transversal in the chart and scrambling you at 24km range. Apoc has 0% chance of hitting. Zealot has 30% chance. Or the saber bubbleing you at 10km with that transversal. A Zealot at least has a 70% chance of hitting it. A Apoc has 0% Chance. Real pvp is what makes the theoretical apoc kinda useless. Real pvp is something that no amount of charts and graphs will show. -- Billion Isk Mission
Indigo Johnson Dojo Sushi	Posted - 2008.03.16 17:47:00 - [100] Originally by: Lord WarATron Real pvp Calling the possible outcomes of a simulated game world "real pvp" over simulated values based on the simulated world is interesting when "real pvp" is just, on average, probably the most likely result from the set of every possible simulated action - if you get me? . But seriously, as said way back on page 2 i think, graphs have a place. CCP use them, we [the players] use them and, given that they are taken into account as being purely theorectically and are obviously not the whole cake then I think they are fine and can be used to argue points in balancing - as long as they reflect reasonable examples (stating the obvious that large guns have problems hitting high trav inties doesn't really prove anything bar the stating the obvious). The only real answer to this disucssion will be from game server player actions as they; on average over a long enough period of time; tend to favour the overpowered setups. If, in a year after, this isn't the case then question "New Apoc + Mega Pulse = too good?" is no
Spaced Skunk D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.17 17:33:00 - [101] I dont know if this has already been stated, but after using Scimitar quite a bit, the tracking links actually stack with the tracking mods on the ship, I doubt you'll even reach 150KM, 200KM is quite a reach. To Spawny, a great guy, a great laugh. Rest in peace buddy.
Skyr Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.17 17:39:00 - [102] Just let this thread die its natural death... in obscurity next to "250km rokh of doom" posts.

Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.